NZSBK 2017 Hampton Downs [Archive]

Reckless

5th March 2017, 16:20

Watching live commentary Spyda was saying its still under protest? Racing is all over now.
But Saw on Facebook Choppa posted a pic of him as 2017 champ?
I watched both parts of the race on live stream. I didnt think they did enough Laps?
They awarded 1/2 points for the first part which put Choppa 6 points adrift (I think??)? Then headed for a restart.
From what I saw Hooze fell from 4th but was in front of Rees which would have put him up to 4th and therefore the win for 2017 on points if they finished in that order or restarted and finished that way.
But from what I can guess they stopped it and called it from the lap before the fall which put Choppa first and Rees 5th.
The difference between Tony Rees in 4th or 5th is the championship.
Not saying whats right or wrong just calling it.
Heard Spyda say still under protest before they signed off.
Generally Choppa was going really well and Tony not so well. Race two was excellent all 5 hammer and tongs at each other. Chop won or was wining all 3 races.
IF they had of restarted and Hooze couldnt make it back and it looked like he done his arm or wrist from the TV? I doubt there was anyone fast enough to keep Tony out of 4th. But they didnt.
From what Spyda said in commentary they called a riders meeting, then they must have called it off?
I'm guessing thats the crux of the Issue a restart would have possibly given Tony Rees the Championship, No restart Choppa and points/placing decision from a lap previous, the win for 2017.
We will never no they never raced to the chequered flag only a red flag.
Hope this doesn't take away from the event the racing was intense :)

Grumph

5th March 2017, 16:35

Haven't seen it, only commenting on what's written here - from memory there's only provision for one restart. If at the end of that they still haven't done race distance or the minimum then it can be half points awarded or stewards can declare it a finished race.
Trevor Heaphy is probably there....

Reckless

5th March 2017, 17:08

Haven't seen it, only commenting on what's written here - from memory there's only provision for one restart.

Cheers Grumph
If that's correct then that will be where it ends. They already had a restart and awarded 1/2 points for the race to the first restart point.
I guess they Declared it race finished after the second accident or had to if you can only restart one time.

Sad end for Tony as he came in with a 32 point buffer.
Congrats Choppa you raced your ass off with a bung foot into the bargain!

We will still have to see how the protest goes tho I guess?

ellipsis

5th March 2017, 17:31

...I think Sloan did bloody well even restarting after that off and then taking the holeshot and staying out in front...it's been an exciting series and Al Hoogie showed his grit as did the old fella Tony Rees...fantastic results from the other class results too...thank you boys and girls for the fantastic entertainment...

scott411

6th March 2017, 13:41

i would hate to be the one to sort this out,

heres the rules,

6.21 Stopping & Starting a Race:
Should it be necessary to stop a race due to an accident or climatic or other
conditions that make it hazardous to continue, a red flag will be displayed at
the finish line under the direction of the Steward or Clerk of the Course, once
instructed, all flag points are to display waved red flags. Upon sighting the red
flag riders are to cease racing immediately and at touring pace return to the pit
lane or the safest point on the track at the discretion of the Clerk of the Course
(this point to be announced at riders briefing), where they will stop and await
further instructions.
The decision to stop a race for whatever the reason can only come from the
Steward or Clerk of the Course. For climatic reasons the race can only be
stopped once. When a race has been stopped immediately any result or
decision is based on the race order of the previous lap then the number of laps
referred to in A and B is the number of laps effected before the lap in which
the race is stopped.
A. If two laps or less are completed:
a. The original start shall be declared null and void.
All riders taking part in the original start shall be allowed to restart either
on the original machine or on another machine provided it has been
approved as fit to race by the machine examiners. The restarted race shall
be for the full race distance and the original grid positions will be used.
The place of any motorcycle unable to take part in the restart shall be left
vacant.
b. If it is not possible to restart the race, no points will be awarded towards
the championships.
c. In all cases where a restart takes place, this will be within 30 minutes after
the initial race has been stopped.
©Motorcycling New Zealand Incorporated 2016
Manual of Motorcycle Sport – Road
B. If three or more laps but less than two thirds of the race distance have
taken place.
a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race
positions at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race will be
the grid positions if a restart takes place. In all cases where a restart takes
place, this will be as soon as possible after the previous part has been
stopped.
b. The distance of the restarted race will be that required make up
the initial full race distance.
c. Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps
realised by the first rider of the preceding part will be authorised
to restart. Machines can not be replaced.
d. Half points will be awarded to each part. If it is impossible to
restart the race, half points only will be awarded towards the
championship.
C. If two thirds of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race. The finishing order shall be at
end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race.
b. Full championship points will be awarded.

My take,
i think they should have restarted it for the 3rd time, and that the 2nd and 3rd segments be rewarded 1/4 points, (there is no where it says you can not restart a 3rd time, it says " For climatic reasons the race can only be
stopped once" this was not climatic conditions,

since it was not restarted, i can see an argument for this rule being used
d. Half points will be awarded to each part. If it is impossible to
restart the race, half points only will be awarded towards the
championship.

meaning no points for the 2nd part,

but these rules are pretty bad IMO, far too complicated, a simple restart rule order would fix this, and the fact that if you crash, and cause a red flag, you can still get 1/2 or even full points,

Grumph

6th March 2017, 13:52

Does anyone know just what the situation is at the moment with points ? I've not heard how the points were awarded for the 2nd part.

There are several precedents for this sort of thing, incl appeal decisions I think, so I'd be surprised if what happened on the day was overturned if it was in line with previous decisions.
IMO you'll never get a 2nd restart. Pretty sure it's been discussed at conference level and decided that it won't happen.

scott411

6th March 2017, 14:02

Grumph

6th March 2017, 14:41

Sloan is saying he won it on social media, and the points on mylaps say he did as well]

That's not dialup friendly, won't open for me.

Just hope if there is a protest/appeal pending that Sloan is saying "subject to official confirmation"

jellywrestler

6th March 2017, 16:10

i'm amazed that half points can be awarded with just 20% of a race run, a race should run at least 65% total to be declared, therefore it would make sense to have a full restart if less than 30% is run. there were 10 15 and 20 lap races at the weekend, yet the rule says a minimum of 2 laps and it can be half points.....
i'm picking the protest was not upheld as if it was subject to that they would have taken two sets of piccies at the prizegiving, in previous years if it's still been under protest they have not awarded anything at the time.
i know tony was a bit unhappy but i heard him quoted as saying at the end of the day he didn't ride hard enough at hampton downs.

i'm tired of people saying the rules aren't right when it comes to this, everyone has the opportunity beforehand to change the rules, well every racer, i'm not a member, so look at the rules and if you're not happy get off your arse and try, at least then you have a right to moan.
spyda

Reckless

6th March 2017, 17:47

The media take on it.

http://www.bikesportnz.com/2017/03/ups-and-downs-at-hampton/

Sloan by 1/2 a point.

Reckless

6th March 2017, 18:01

Protest must be over as this is posted on NZSBK facebook.
I must say the way he raced in the weekend with an injury you certainly cannot deny hes a worthy winner and a passionate racer.
Its over everything from here is spilt milk LOL
Good on ya Choppa!!

329060

Damien_Toman

6th March 2017, 18:30

Angela Charlett was going really well:

https://flic.kr/p/S7YEu7

Grumph

6th March 2017, 18:32

i'm amazed that half points can be awarded with just 20% of a race run, a race should run at least 65% total to be declared, therefore it would make sense to have a full restart if less than 30% is run. there were 10 15 and 20 lap races at the weekend, yet the rule says a minimum of 2 laps and it can be half points.....
i'm picking the protest was not upheld as if it was subjet to that they would have taken two sets of piccies at the prizegiving, in previous years if it's still been under protest they have not awarded anything at the time.
i know tony was a bit unhappy but i heard him quoted as saying at the end of the day he didn't ride hard enough at hampton downs.

i'm tired of people saying the rules aren't right when it comes to this, everyone has the opportunity beforehand to change the rules, well every racer, i'm not a member, so look at the rules and if you're not happy get off your arse and try, at least then you have a right to moan.
spyda

How it is now has been in the book for some years. Riders had input into it if I remember right. Possibly even including Tony - it was that far back.

Riders - If it needs changing, either get a remit in smartish - or raise it from the floor at the conference.

KawasakiKid

7th March 2017, 08:25

jellywrestler

7th March 2017, 09:20

How can the rider crashing and causing the red flag then be awarded maximum points for that section of the race. This is simply not fair to all the following riders.

Congrats to all the riders, condolences over the final result to Tony Rees

who judges whether a downed rider caused the crash or was taken out? often there's nobody qualified on a corner to make that call, what if they went down in oil or debri, its a tough one that i understand has recently been rbought up and all riders have had the right to challenge it.
Tony said that at the end of the day he didn't ride hard enough at hd, more to the point he rode as hard as his bike and tyre set up would allow, it's just that sloan and other riders went faster and his points whittled away to be just half a point behind.
my observation is the awarding of full half points for just 20% of the race is a little far fetched.

KawasakiKid

7th March 2017, 09:42

who judges whether a downed rider caused the crash or was taken out? often there's nobody qualified on a corner to make that call, what if they went down in oil or debri, its a tough one that i understand has recently been rbought up and all riders have had the right to challenge it.
Tony said that at the end of the day he didn't ride hard enough at hd, more to the point he rode as hard as his bike and tyre set up would allow, it's just that sloan and other riders went faster and his points whittled away to be just half a point behind.
my observation is the awarding of full half points for just 20% of the race is a little far fetched.

OK so being involved with the red flag crash ( and falling) can sometimes be wrong place wrong time. Is it fairer to penalise the rider still upright. Unfortunately the rules were not entirely followed in this case (race distance 65%). It was also obvious that Frost simply crashed in this instance. I take nothing away from his ability and courage, just the rules and perhaps the guts of MNZ track officials need upgrading

jellywrestler

7th March 2017, 09:51

Unfortunately the rules were not entirely followed in this case (race distance 65%).

you're reading them wrong, the 65% refers to riders who have had an issue in less than 65% of the duration of the race before it was red flagged.
last weekend at taupo; al hoogie went down turn one lap one, scott moir pulled out from memory lap two, the race was red flagged at 5, back to four so neither had completed 65% of the four laps and could not rejoin the race, moir did, got some riding in but was disqualified, hoogie didn't restart.

Grumph

7th March 2017, 10:04

It's always been the case that places revert to the lap prior to the red flag. Yes there have been instances where it was the leader who caused the red - but there have been more where it was a backmarker - swings and roundabouts...

Dredging my memory, i'm pretty sure the restart thing was discussed to death a few years back. Riders didn't want more than one restart because of tyre warmth and wear issues plus fuel etc....Organisers didn't want more than one restart due to the already overcrowded programme and time issues.
Again, pretty sure a group of top National riders were consulted about the rules for this circumstance. If someone wants to start it up again, they're welcome.
Yes, there'll always be someone who feels hard done by. Can't please everybody all the time.

Grumph

7th March 2017, 10:11

OK so being involved with the red flag crash ( and falling) can sometimes be wrong place wrong time. Is it fairer to penalise the rider still upright. Unfortunately the rules were not entirely followed in this case (race distance 65%). It was also obvious that Frost simply crashed in this instance. I take nothing away from his ability and courage, just the rules and perhaps the guts of MNZ track officials need upgrading

If you feel you have something to contribute as an official, put your name forward for a stewards position in your club....

Once you've served as a steward or CoC for 20 plus years, then you might be worth listening to. If you think the guts of the volounteer officials need upgrading, I suggest you seek out Trevor Heaphy and tell him so.....

Doppleganger

7th March 2017, 10:20

Scrap the rule.
New rule;- Flag to flag race.
If in say a 20 lap race it is red flagged at lap 6, a new race is run for the remainder of the original race distance ie 14 laps
Rider that caused the red flag cannot start the restarted race.

no two part crap, no 2/3rds crap, no 65% crap just racing on a track for the distance the race is scheduled to run.

Dave-

7th March 2017, 13:32

Rider that caused the red flag cannot start the restarted race.

YOU CANNOT FAIRLY DETERMINE WHO CAUSED A RED FLAG IN THE TIME AVAILABLE.

:brick::brick:

sidecar bob

7th March 2017, 15:09

KawasakiKid

7th March 2017, 15:37

If you feel you have something to contribute as an official, put your name forward for a stewards position in your club....

Once you've served as a steward or CoC for 20 plus years, then you might be worth listening to. If you think the guts of the volounteer officials need upgrading, I suggest you seek out Trevor Heaphy and tell him so.....

Sorry although I am in NZ a few times a year, in general the commute would kill me. I have been involved from racer to sponsor to official for over 4 decades. Maybe you need to wake up on the other side of the bed if you are always this Grumphy and take things so personally

ellipsis

7th March 2017, 17:14

Sorry although I am in NZ a few times a year, in general the commute would kill me. I have been involved from racer to sponsor to official for over 4 decades. Maybe you need to wake up on the other side of the bed if you are always this Grumphy and take things so personally

...whatever you did, whatever you do, whatever you think you did, whatever you wish to do, doesn't mean fuck all if you haven't been involved in NZ Motorcycle Sport and have tried to be a 'voice'...it's a rocky road and usually a forlorn hope to think you can change anything, specially on a forum such as this...there is a few years worth of stewarding and officiating members on here, Grumph being one of them...I'm with jellywrestler on this one, scratching my swede...snafu...

malcy25

7th March 2017, 17:19

The downed rider needs to have a half hour stand down for medical observation. That is how the situation is handled in some other countries.
The bike should also be re inspected for crash damage that could result in a non compliant machine.

For a long time I'd heard the comment doing a "Foret". Rumour has it, Fabian Foret if he fell off, would lay on the track until the race was red flagged. Once flagged, he'd jump up and run back to the pits so he could get on the restart that he'd caused........:laugh:

husaberg

7th March 2017, 17:27

My opinion, the rules must be changed. How can the rider crashing and causing the red flag then be awarded maximum points for that section of the race. This is simply not fair to all the following riders.

Also agree not enough laps in total.

MNZ and riders plus officials on the day need to sort this before next season, it is very bad

Congrats to all the riders, condolences over the final result to Tony Rees

It depends on the situation for instance, someone might blow up their Ducati then do most of a lap on the racing line pissing out all the bikes oil resulting in a crashes of the leaders and other riders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m143x5sSPWc
We miss you Raymond Roche
Anyone remember him beating up his RS500 after it blew up and storming off in a huff

jellywrestler

7th March 2017, 17:56

The downed rider needs to have a half hour stand down for medical observation. That is how the situation is handled in some other countries.
The bike should also be re inspected for crash damage that could result in a non compliant machine.

a concussion test is mandatory and after frost crashed at invers despite it being the last s/b race he was still required to take one, he also took one and a leathers off examination before rejoining at taupo, however he was on another bike which is dissallowed.

Grumph

7th March 2017, 18:46

Sorry although I am in NZ a few times a year, in general the commute would kill me. I have been involved from racer to sponsor to official for over 4 decades. Maybe you need to wake up on the other side of the bed if you are always this Grumphy and take things so personally

Interesting - I may even know you if you've been around that long. I will always respond like that to attacks on Volounteer officials. ALL they can do is uphold the rule book - they have NO discretion as you should know.

Hmm, not involved in yacht charters are you ?

Doppleganger

8th March 2017, 06:31

YOU CANNOT FAIRLY DETERMINE WHO CAUSED A RED FLAG IN THE TIME AVAILABLE.

:brick::brick:

Yeah ya can, its the guy or his bike that's compromised the race, don't make it more difficult that it needs to be.
That's the problem with the rule book, to much blah blah

jellywrestler

8th March 2017, 06:51

Yeah ya can, its the guy or his bike that's compromised the race, don't make it more difficult that it needs to be.
That's the problem with the rule book, to much blah blah

in someone elses oil slick? what if there's three down, or two or in the case at ruapuna two years back the red flag was put out for three riders and then the flaggie denied it, how would you call that?, or manfied when the cows walked across the back straight

Doppleganger

8th March 2017, 08:54

in someone elses oil slick? what if there's three down, or two or in the case at ruapuna two years back the red flag was put out for three riders and then the flaggie denied it, how would you call that?, or manfied when the cows walked across the back straight

Then three dont restart.
Cows and mistakes aside, if no rider or bike caused the red flag then all can restart.
Moto GP manage it (less the cows)

scott411

8th March 2017, 09:18

i think most of the time a prime cause can be found, but in some instances like the oil one, you may not, i think the prime cause should not score points in that race that is stopped,

I really think it needs to be a restart rule, either set the grid by the results of the first part, or do a single file restart like what is already in the rule book for endurance races

14.8a

In the event of a race stoppage the procedure will be:
Red Flags will be displayed at strategic points around the circuit.
All competitors still running will continue on the current lap, at a Safe
considerably reduced speed to the pits. Competitors must enter pit lane and
proceed to their respective pit area, but the Motorcycle MUST remain in Pit
Lane and not be taken into the garage area.
No tyres, fuel or repairs may be carried out.
Tyre warmers may be put on the bikes only.
The same rider must be on the same bike for the restart as was on the machine
at the time of the race stoppage.
The restart will consist of 1 warm up lap, followed by a green flag standing
start at the Start finish line

Dave-

8th March 2017, 09:49

Then three dont restart.
Cows and mistakes aside, if no rider or bike caused the red flag then all can restart.
Moto GP manage it (less the cows)

So two riders come together, one falls off and causes a red flag. He's not allowed to restart but the guy who knocked him off is?

Doppleganger

8th March 2017, 09:52

So two riders come together, one falls off and causes a red flag. He's not allowed to restart but the guy who knocked him off is?

Yep.

The rider that comes off as a result has cause to appeal the result.

ellipsis

8th March 2017, 10:09

...these arguments, musings, suggestions are as perennial as the dahlias growing on the fenceline...they will flower again next year too...

Grumph

8th March 2017, 10:21

...these arguments, musings, suggestions are as perennial as the dahlias growing on the fenceline...they will flower again next year too...

Correct - What i'd point out - again - is that what is in the book is WHAT THE RIDERS WANTED.

I'd assume that as usual there will be a roadrace workshop at this year's conference. I'd also assume that this topic has gone on the agenda....

Can I also assume that those of you on here with strong opinions for change will try and attend, either as observers or delegates ?

scott411

8th March 2017, 10:35

Correct - What i'd point out - again - is that what is in the book is WHAT THE RIDERS WANTED.

I'd assume that as usual there will be a roadrace workshop at this year's conference. I'd also assume that this topic has gone on the agenda....

Can I also assume that those of you on here with strong opinions for change will try and attend, either as observers or delegates ?

im not sure the conference is the best place to get alot of riders opinions, as not many attend,

with modern communications i think that an email out to all riders of the nationals asking for response would be a good start

Dave-

8th March 2017, 10:57

Yep.

The rider that comes off as a result has cause to appeal the result.

Ok, so he gets knocked off in the 4th lap of 20.

Appeals.

Where do you place him based on 4 laps of 20?

Doppleganger

8th March 2017, 11:01

Ok, so he gets knocked off in the 4th lap of 20.

Appeals.

Where do you place him based on 4 laps of 20?

Hey shit happens, its racing not tiddly-winks.
He cant appeal to be given a position he can appeal the eligibility of the rider who knocked him off to be included in the result.

Dave-

8th March 2017, 11:10

Hey shit happens, its racing not tiddly-winks.
He cant appeal to be given a position he can appeal the eligibility of the rider who knocked him off to be included in the result.

This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

I'm done with this thread.

I'm out.

Doppleganger

8th March 2017, 11:26

This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

I'm done with this thread.

I'm out.

Just think about it rather than do a runner.

How many riders crash as a result of another riders actions? A fair amount I'd suggest, they don't go running off to the steward and ask to be given points. If they have an issue with the offending rider they appeal the result and if substantiated maybe that offending rider looses out too.

The rue book is full of rule that dont work alongside each other and it needs to be thinned out .

MarkW

8th March 2017, 12:12

The rule book is full of rules that dont work alongside each other and it needs to be thinned out .[/QUOTE]

And are you volunteering to complete this job on behalf of the road racing community? If not, why not?

Mental Trousers

8th March 2017, 13:20

Doppleganger

8th March 2017, 13:24

The rule book is full of rules that dont work alongside each other and it needs to be thinned out .

And are you volunteering to complete this job on behalf of the road racing community? If not, why not?[/QUOTE]

I dont think it should be one person that does this.
It should be a group of people consisting of experienced officials (and by that I don't mean the old sages that have been there for donkeys), current experienced racers and a legal savvy person.

The wheel doesn't need to be invented here. there are rules out there in other countries that work very well, the flag to flag in motogp, the crash rule in BSB to name but a few

MarkW

8th March 2017, 13:45

And are you volunteering to complete this job on behalf of the road racing community? If not, why not?

I dont think it should be one person that does this.
It should be a group of people consisting of experienced officials (and by that I don't mean the old sages that have been there for donkeys), current experienced racers and a legal savvy person.

The wheel doesn't need to be invented here. there are rules out there in other countries that work very well, the flag to flag in motogp, the crash rule in BSB to name but a few[/QUOTE]

Same response - are you volunteering to lead this group to complete this job on behalf of the road racing community? If not, why not?

Drew

8th March 2017, 17:43

Just think about it rather than do a runner.

How many riders crash as a result of another riders actions? A fair amount I'd suggest, they don't go running off to the steward and ask to be given points. If they have an issue with the offending rider they appeal the result and if substantiated maybe that offending rider looses out too.

The rue book is full of rule that dont work alongside each other and it needs to be thinned out .
No they don't, that's because the rules are the fairest they can be, the way they are.

It's the same as this the world over. It is the same as an FIM rule. So unless you wanna bitch about it in MotoGP and superbikes, shut your fucken hole.

Kickaha

8th March 2017, 19:26

from memory there's only provision for one restart.
I thought the 600s had two restarts at Ruapuna last year?

Good job they didn't anyway, meant we got away from the track a lot earlier for the trip home

Grumph

8th March 2017, 19:36

I thought the 600s had two restarts at Ruapuna last year?

Good job they didn't anyway, meant we got away from the track a lot earlier for the trip home

I think if it's red flagged on the first lap it's not actually a restart - it's a rerun.

jellywrestler

9th March 2017, 07:34

I think if it's red flagged on the first lap it's not actually a restart - it's a rerun.

race must have completed two laps according to the rule book

Drew

9th March 2017, 08:44

race must have completed two laps according to the rule book

'More than two laps' is the wording. So whole field must complete three laps.

Doppleganger

9th March 2017, 09:54

'More than two laps' is the wording. So whole field must complete three laps.

Doesn't say 'whole field' has to have completed three laps, as soon as you've 'started' your third lap you have completed 2 laps

Drew

9th March 2017, 11:06

Doesn't say 'whole field' has to have completed three laps, as soon as you've 'started' your third lap you have completed 2 laps

It says 'more than two kaps'. So three must be done.

It doesn't clearly state the whole field anY more for some reason. Can't see why that is taken out.

sidecar bob

9th March 2017, 11:11

It says 'more than two kaps'. So three must be done.

It doesn't clearly state the whole field anY more for some reason. Can't see why that is taken out.
A race finish is dictated by how many laps the leader has done, so if for example in a 15 lap race, the leader manages to put a lap on every rider before the last lap, then everyone else gets the chequered flag at 14 laps.
The new thinking there seems to fit with more that scenario, which is far more realistic.

Drew

9th March 2017, 14:17

A race finish is dictated by how many laps the leader has done, so if for example in a 15 lap race, the leader manages to put a lap on every rider before the last lap, then everyone else gets the chequered flag at 14 laps.
The new thinking there seems to fit with more that scenario, which is far more realistic.
That's different. A rider can't be declared a lap down when they are on the same lap as the leader. Hence the whole field thing. Someone already a lap down would be a pain, but doesn't really change anything.

jellywrestler

9th March 2017, 17:05

Doesn't say 'whole field' has to have completed three laps, as soon as you've 'started' your third lap you have completed 2 laps

so if that's your logic the once the lead bike has crossed the finish then the race is over, no-one else matters...

husaberg

9th March 2017, 18:17

It says 'more than two kaps'. So three must be done.

It doesn't clearly state the whole field anY more for some reason. Can't see why that is taken out.

2.1 2.3 or 2 1/2 is also more than one.

Drew

9th March 2017, 20:00

2.1 2.3 or 2 1/2 is also more than one.

Well spotted. But since laps are only counted in whole numbers, completely irrelevant.

husaberg

9th March 2017, 20:16

Well spotted. But since laps are only counted in whole numbers, completely irrelevant.

As long as its more than two complete laps thats all that relevent IMO.
That said some of the MNZ rules are highly ambiguous.
You could drive a bus through F4 and F5.

Drew

9th March 2017, 20:19

As long as its more than two complete laps thats all that relevent IMO.

More than two laps COMPLETED.

The pedantry is academic, there simply isn't an argument.

husaberg

9th March 2017, 20:23

More than two laps COMPLETED.

The pedantry is academic, there simply isn't an argument.

You missed the bit i added.

As long as its more than two complete laps thats all that relevent IMO.
That said some of the MNZ rules are highly ambiguous.
You could drive a bus through F4 and F5.

Plus you seemed to have swallowed a thesaurus.
People argue rules all the time, more than two is still more than two.:laugh:

Doppleganger

13th March 2017, 07:01

so if that's your logic the once the lead bike has crossed the finish then the race is over, no-one else matters...

Seriously!!

When the lead bike crosses the finish line having completed the race distance everyone else is allotted their position in the race once they cross the finish line :brick:

Drew

13th March 2017, 07:10

Seriously!!

When the lead bike crosses the finish line having completed the race distance everyone else is allotted their position in the race once they cross the finish line :brick:
Once they criss the finish line you fucken moron. Same as when a red flag is called, the result is calculated from the last time everone crossed the line.

Doppleganger

13th March 2017, 07:13

Once they criss the finish line you fucken moron. Same as when a red flag is called, the result is calculated from the last time everone crossed the line.

You're a fukin cock and a half aye

So by your logic once the red flag comes out everyone has to go balls to the wall to get the best place over the line!!! fukin idiot

Drew

13th March 2017, 07:24

You're a fukin cock and a half aye

So by your logic once the red flag comes out everyone has to go balls to the wall to get the best place over the line!!! fukin idiot
Are being thick on purpose. The lap preceeding the red flag. That means before the flag came our.

ellipsis

13th March 2017, 08:17

Are being thick on purpose.

...some people don't actually realise how thick they are, even when lead gently towards that conclusion...it's a human thing that is quite prevalent in our society...

Doppleganger

13th March 2017, 10:14

Are being thick on purpose. The lap preceeding the red flag. That means before the flag came our.

Still being a devils advocate here;

What if the whole field didn't cross the line preceding lap, what happens to them?

Drew

13th March 2017, 12:32

Still being a devils advocate here;

What if the whole field didn't cross the line preceding lap, what happens to them?
Anyone who crashed or had a break down before completing the lap pteceeding the red flag, are not eligible for points in the first part, and unless the rule has changed since Stroud did it at Ruapuna they can't start in the second part.

Doppleganger

13th March 2017, 12:44

Anyone who crashed or had a break down before completing the lap pteceeding the red flag, are not eligible for points in the first part, and unless the rule has changed since Stroud did it at Ruapuna they can't start in the second part.

Pretty sure you can start in the second part provide;

Same bike and has been examined by machine examiner
Been cleared by ambo staff
Gear checked by steward (holes in leathers ding in helmet etc)

Drew

13th March 2017, 14:03

Pretty sure you can start in the second part provide;

Same bike and has been examined by machine examiner
Been cleared by ambo staff
Gear checked by steward (holes in leathers ding in helmet etc)Not if you went out before the lap preceeding the red flag.

This was illustrated when Stroud crashed at Ruapuna. No one knew what to do so he was allowed to start from pit lane or the back of the grid. Can't remember which.

He actually crossed the line first, but wasn't awared the win because he shouldn't have been there.

KawasakiKid

13th March 2017, 17:04

Not if you went out before the lap preceeding the red flag.

This was illustrated when Stroud crashed at Ruapuna. No one knew what to do so he was allowed to start from pit lane or the back of the grid. Can't remember which.

He actually crossed the line first, but wasn't awared the win because he shouldn't have been there.

Andrew Stroud gridded up at the front of the grid and after a very long discussion was made to move to the rear of the grid....in the meantime several bikes were overheating including Robbie Budgen's (almost certainly why the engine blew). Bloody officials could not make the decision on whether Stroud had completed enough distance of the previous start to be allowed to participate. I guess the 30 minute mark was approaching so they simply allowed him to grid up and then the shit hit the fan. Fucking useless ! One of the greatest races I have seen but Stroud should not have been part of it (apparently).

Said it before and saying it again..officials need to grow a pair and actually make decisions (in time)....or maybe this is why they are officials and not racers (some exceptions of course)

jellywrestler

13th March 2017, 18:01

Anyone who crashed or had a break down before completing the lap pteceeding the red flag, are not eligible for points in the first part, and unless the rule has changed since Stroud did it at Ruapuna they can't start in the second part.

If they have completed 65% or the part of the race they are allowed to start again, stroud went down, a couple of laps later the 2 bmw's went down red flag out, they checked the laps and if he had done one more lap it would have allowed him to restart.
at the time all the officials were having apit lane talk and i butted in to enquire what was happening and they hadn't even got a printout of laps to work out whether he could go back out.
as was he went out and started off the back of the grid but was later disqualified same as Scotty Moir at taupo.

jellywrestler

13th March 2017, 18:03

Andrew Stroud gridded up at the front of the grid and after a very long discussion was made to move to the rear of the grid.... my recollection was that he went out so late that he ended up on the back row, but only a recollection

KawasakiKid

13th March 2017, 19:11

my recollection was that he went out so late that he ended up on the back row, but only a recollection

No Andrew was out early (on time) and initially went to his grid position of the first start. I was in the pits near the start line, my friend Bill was a grid marshall, and was told by his 'boss' to move Andrew to the rear of the grid. Bill has no input into that call but the folk in charge had already used up the allocated 30 minutes fluffing around and had not made a decision until Andrew was on the front row. They should have had the decency to have made a call in the 30 minute window and informed Andrew he was not eligible to restart. A little bit of arithmetic does not take 30 minutes. This is the sort of thing that pisses everybody off. Albeit that officials generally do a great job with little thanks.....and who would be responsible if the unthinkable happened and Andrew was involved in a serious accident (when he should not have been there...in their opinion)

jellywrestler

13th March 2017, 22:38

No Andrew was out early (on time) and initially went to his grid position of the first start. I was in the pits near the start line, my friend Bill was a grid marshall, and was told by his 'boss' to move Andrew to the rear of the grid. Bill has no input into that call but the folk in charge had already used up the allocated 30 minutes fluffing around and had not made a decision until Andrew was on the front row. They should have had the decency to have made a call in the 30 minute window and informed Andrew he was not eligible to restart. A little bit of arithmetic does not take 30 minutes. This is the sort of thing that pisses everybody off. Albeit that officials generally do a great job with little thanks.....and who would be responsible if the unthinkable happened and Andrew was involved in a serious accident (when he should not have been there...in their opinion)

as said only recollection i probably watch more races than anyone else in nz so it becomes a blur at the end of the day, rememeber he set the fastest lap of all the riders on the first lap but i did remind people it's not a fiar representation as he's had a drag race from the rear of the grid to the start line. also remember hime saying it certianlly got his attention starting from the back, i thought , fuck if a superbike hasn't already got your attention..
fact is half the riders don't even know the rules and run round asking the officials/commentators etc.

Grumph

14th March 2017, 06:58

I wasn't at the GP meeting in question. But from experience I can tell you that generally if there's a question of exclude or not, and there are major questions with no time for consultation, the answer 9/10 of the time will be allow them in, we'll sort it out later.
Yes, if they crash when they should have been excluded, fingers will be pointed. But if they're excluded and should actually have been INCLUDED, heads will roll in the organisation.
Better by far to include when in doubt as removing points is a damm sight easier than trying to award missing ones...

And yes, in an ideal world everyone would know ALL the rules and permutations but sometimes shit happens...

I think it was around then that Billy decided to bring the same Steward and CoC to all the nationals. The problem he didn't think of there was the towers in the SI are only used with the permission of the Car clubs - and the authorised guys were not friendly to his ideas. But that's another story...

Drew

14th March 2017, 08:16

All well and good. But an extra bike in the mix and it fucks with legitimate racers.

ellipsis

14th March 2017, 08:47

But that's another story...

...there are lots of stories...mainly from people, some on here, some elsewhere...only stories though...none very accurate, some just opinion and then there are the facts...it was a bit of a mess and officials were being manhandled by other affected riders team mates, AS was trying as hard as possible to be 'helpful to himself' and the NI official who was 'in control', wasn't really, at all,...while the situation got steadily worse as far as the restart and gridding went, a lone SI official had to manually go back through the lap scoring to ascertain who was where...the 'official' lap timing from upstairs was incomplete due to technical issues, Spyda was waving the incomplete printout around,which would have sorted things out a lot quicker had it been up to the minute...a whole heap of shit was happening and it was very tense...I was there for my club to observe the new directive from MNZ about them providing their officials for the series instead of using the hosting clubs officials...fingers can be pointed in all directions, mainly North...all in all it was a fuck up caused through a technical issue and some riders/teams all being very human and competitive and obstructive to getting it sorted...all water under the bridge and the river keeps flowing...

jellywrestler

14th March 2017, 09:26

All well and good. But an extra bike in the mix and it fucks with legitimate racers.

and Sloan was stopped from going out at taupo, for the wrong reasons but it turned out he wouldn't have been allowed out as he was not on the same bike, if he had protested and it was upheld they would have had to either wipe everyones points for that race, or re run the race with him in, either way would cause dramas. what they need is someone who knows the rules intimately and can judge on them, and it starts with the riders not knowing them well enough often.

jellywrestler

14th March 2017, 10:49

I haven't read all the posts, but has it been settled,who's the champion of New Zealand ?
Weez or Chocka ?????:lol:

subject to an appeal still

jellywrestler

14th March 2017, 17:52

Andrew Stroud gridded up at the front of the grid and after a very long discussion was made to move to the rear of the grid....in the meantime several bikes were overheating including Robbie Budgen's (almost certainly why the engine blew). Bloody officials could not make the decision on whether Stroud had completed enough distance of the previous start to be allowed to participate. I guess the 30 minute mark was approaching so they simply allowed him to grid up and then the shit hit the fan. Fucking useless ! One of the greatest races I have seen but Stroud should not have been part of it (apparently).

https://ctaslive.nz/CtasVOD.aspx?ctasvod=ctasliveNZSBKRnd1SBKR2-201200111&v=f&eventp=NZSBKRnd112

some of ctas's older stuff is still not in the free to air bin, got hold of Grant and he unlocked it for us, anyone want any races he hasn't already unlocked it's dead easy and free.
Wasn't checking up on ya mate, every now and then it's good to watch what's happened in the past again