2017 Proposed Bucket Rule Changes.

[TZ350]

Posted as a public service.

2017 Proposed Bucket Rule Changes.

https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/rules/2017-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website.pdf?sfvrsn=2

329761 ... 329760

These two pages pertain to Buckets

329762

The full list of Proposals.

Cut off for Submissions to the Proposals close end of April.

[Rick 52]

I'm sorry but I don't see any positives, only negatives ..

1/ Do we need another class ? (A,B,C F5, Sidcars )
2/ Do we have a shortage of available motors?
3/ Would more people race ?
4/ How could it be policed ?
5/ Do meeting organisers need more work ?

Suzuki FXRs have been great for buckets because lots of people dont have access to kitted work shops or money to get things made but Bucket people help others to do little mods on the cheep ..

Build a F5 bike and learn to ride fast on a slow bike is a better option .

[TALLIS]

Agree Rick, would be more beneficial to make a rules change that requires every rider to flag a race...:brick:
I'm probably the only 1 with a 85cc mx bucket, and only for shits and giggles as the mounts are the same as the f5 set up. Iam not in any way behind or attached to anyone who has submitted this proposed change mind you, the only thing it dose have going for it, is that it is a different class. It won't bring any new riders to the track, and the usual cry baby's will still harp on that buckets should still be $500, but hey you can't buy an ice cream for 20c anymore either.....

[jellywrestler]

pretty simple, these are the proposed changes, get your vote in or more importanalt comments so there can be a balanced discussion at conference.
remember only a handful of people make up these rules with the knowledge they have, more sets of eyes on these will bring more comments out that will either let them through, let them through with refinements or shoot them down, no use moaning after it's done.

[Cheesy]

Ive got most of an RM85 motor in the garage if anyone wants to take a gamble :rolleyes:

[jasonu]

pretty simple, these are the proposed changes, get your vote in or more importanalt comments so there can be a balanced discussion at conference.
remember only a handful of people make up these rules with the knowledge they have, more sets of eyes on these will bring more comments out that will either let them through, let them through with refinements or shoot them down, no use moaning after it's done.

But who proposed these changes, why and based on what research or information?

[F5 Dave]

But who proposed these changes, why and based on what research or information?

Seems to be missing the overbore sizes for all classes if a new one was introduced.

It is a crying shame that there's a dearth of modern 2 strokes and the old ones need a heap of work to get them FXR competitive. And let's face it were made in the 70s.

Still I'll order up KTM with an Ignitech and Wobbly pipe. Then I just need to find an unbreakable skinny kid to ride it.

[jellywrestler]

But who proposed these changes, why and based on what research or information?

some one with a mnz license and entilted to do so, how the fuck would i know or care, fact is they are there and it's up to the others to vote yay or nay or streamline them so they work, everyone has a vote, so can't get fairer than that can you?

[TZ350]

Seems to be missing the overbore sizes for all classes if a new one was introduced.

Over bore allowances are on page 1 of Appendix A

329782

Looks like Super Unmodified don't get a re bore allowance as the engine must remain in OEM spec, or whoever proposed the rule didn't think of it.


It is a crying shame that there's a dearth of modern 2 strokes and the old ones need a heap of work to get them FXR competitive. And let's face it were made in the 70s.

That is true, but by taking advantage of the current F4 100cc 2T, 110cc max re-bore allowance you can re cycle some interesting cylinders and for little more than the cost of an overhaul, build a reliable engine fairly easily out of old stuff lying around that is currently Bucket legal.

Farmer Ken and Team ESE have built engines this way and I know of a few others in the pipeline.

Details on building a reliable H2O 110 2T for not much money can be found here:-


Building a F4 water cooled two stroke Bucket racing engine.

[jasonu]

Seems to be missing the overbore sizes for all classes if a new one was introduced.

It is a crying shame that there's a dearth of modern 2 strokes and the old ones need a heap of work to get them FXR competitive. And let's face it were made in the 70s.

Still I'll order up KTM with an Ignitech and Wobbly pipe. Then I just need to find an unbreakable skinny kid to ride it.

If 85 mx'rs are allowed, next it will be CRF150R's.

[jasonu]

some one with a mnz license and entilted to do so, how the fuck would i know or care, fact is they are there and it's up to the others to vote yay or nay or streamline them so they work, everyone has a vote, so can't get fairer than that can you?

Sounds more like someone with a back yard full of 85 mx'rs or more likely someone who knows fuck all about the class.

[jellywrestler]

Sounds more like someone with a back yard full of 85 mx'rs or more likely someone who knows fuck all about the class.

yip and many years ago a westland south island club proposed a tether switch for road racing sidecar passengers, they had no real knowledge on the sport but offered that up, that brought out the discussion, or more likely forced the discussion, it was thrown out.
it may well be someone going off half cocked, that's why you have to come back on it with answers so it can be a balanced discussion.

[FastFred]

Not sure you really need Super Buckets as Team ESE have pointed out. There is plenty that can be done with existing Bucket legal parts. Take one re-bored (re plated) NSR125 or 250, Aprila125 or RGV250 cylinder, no porting or 2T tuning experience needed. Leave it in standard tune and mate it to an appropriate bottom end and you will have all the power and reliability you will ever need, upper 20's at least. Just so simple.

And for those that ask, yes Aprilia125 cylinders can still be brought new and NSR ones too and Suzuki are still making the TF/TS100 bike so there must be engines around from older ones.

[TZ350]

<div style="position:relative;height:0;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Fol9Pld6U1c?ecver=2" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" style="position:absolute;width:100%;height:100%;left:0" allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

KTM 85 an easy 24.4hp ... :) . no effort required, if you think that is a good idea, best let MNZ know.

[FastFred]

329807

Talented old school Bucket racer.

But if your daddy moneybags living life through your nipper.

329811

Or a young fella with a strong sense of entitlement and a gold card, why shouldn't you just buy the the hp you need. F..K having to make stuff yourself.

329808

Maybe this is the face of a new breed of racing talent.

With store brought 24hp KTM85's, Bucket racing could be headed for a Golden future.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20

[kel]

KTM 85 an easy 24.4hp ... :) . no effort required,
whats the fuss about, same formula and output as one of those bolt up Derbi racer

[kel]

Sounds more like someone with a back yard full of 85 mx'rs or more likely someone who knows fuck all about the class.
Jason its no longer 1987. The Derbi cup has been in full swing for years, why not throw in the motos to spice things up!

[TZ350]

Spacer plate to adapt a water cooled cylinder to a suitable donor engine.

329815

Crank modification to keep everything within capacity limits.

329816

This is essentially all that is needed to make a reliable and competitive 100cc F4 water cooled two stroke Bucket racer.

Old school, and simple.

[jasonu]

Jason its no longer 1987. The Derbi cup has been in full swing for years, why not throw in the motos to spice things up!

Got one have ya Kel???

[F5 Dave]

With a pipe and ign to let it rev, 24 will become?. . .

[richban]

whats the fuss about, same formula and output as one of those bolt up Derbi racer

Yeah agree with Kel. My new AM6 based 90 is looking good for 30hp. Still lots of work with welding cases and reed block mods. But bolt on would be like 24.

[Bert]

Spacer plate to adapt a water cooled cylinder to a suitable donor engine.

329815

Crank modification to keep everything within capacity limits.

329816

This is essentially all that is needed to make a reliable and competitive 100cc F4 water cooled two stroke Bucket racer.

Old school, and simple.

I'm not knocking the point you are trying to make; but let's cost this up for someone that can not or doesn't have to tools to do this.

Basic engine = $200-400
Crank mod = $600+
Rodkit = $120
Cylinder = $80-200
Piston kit for old school cylinder $150

About $1000 should cover it, then

Conversion plate (hours of work with the file, drill, hacksaw.
Porting
Pipe
Electronics
Engine mounting in frame.

You might manage to make 18-20hp by luck then spend hundreds of hours chasing the next 10hp, only to have it pop and start again...

Finding some sucker to help you do this is hard work. This option isn't for a person with out the necessary equipment or skills. Fun yes, realistic not really.

[jasonu]

I'm not knocking the point you are trying to make; but let's cost this up for someone that can not or doesn't have to tools to do this.

Basic engine = $200-400
Crank mod = $600+
Rodkit = $120
Cylinder = $80-200
Piston kit for old school cylinder $150

About $1000 should cover it, then

Conversion plate (hours of work with the file, drill, hacksaw.
Porting
Pipe
Electronics
Engine mounting in frame.

You might manage to make 18-20hp by luck then spend hundreds of hours chasing the next 10hp, only to have it pop and start again...

Finding some sucker to help you do this is hard work. This option isn't for a person with out the necessary equipment or skills. Fun yes, realistic not really.

Then go and buy an FXR. They can be made to be relatively competitive for not a lot of effort or cash.

[FastFred]

let's cost this up for someone that can not or doesn't have to tools to do this.

Basic engine = $200-400
Crank mod = $600+
Rodkit = $120
Cylinder = $80-200
Piston kit for old school cylinder $150

About $1000 should cover it.

$1,300 FXR150 engine:- http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1296917079

[FastFred]

I'm not knocking the point you are trying to make; You might manage to make 18-20hp by luck then spend hundreds of hours chasing the next 10hp, only to have it pop and start again...

TeeZee has already pointed out that with an "un ported" NSR cylinder you can get mid to high 20's with standard cylinder like reliability. I guess his power claims come from recent dyno experience.

[FastFred]

Because it is so easy to make a reliable currently class legal 2T along the lines TeeZee suggests. It would be good to hear why Buckets need this new proposal of Super Buckets.

Maybe the proposers could step forward and make their case.

[F5 Dave]

Rob it's not so easy to make a gryphon engine you propose. My mate just brought that NSR TF and it's a lemon. Example of why people shouldn't be trusted. There's no way he could turn this into a 110 by himself in a million years. Fortunately he still has the FXR to ride.


So it will be up to me to make something race able out of it. Still have to decide if I want to trailblazer or just keep air-cooled like Rick's.

I was violently opposed to mx engines. I have softened my opinion now but I don't think that the proposed changes are right. Either way I am sure that people like me shouldn't be making the decision as I'm not currently racing.

[Grumph]

I was violently opposed to mx engines. I have softened my opinion now but I don't think that the proposed changes are right. Either way I am sure that people like me shouldn't be making the decision as I'm not currently racing.

Why not ? You know more about the cost of speed than most.

I note that there's no SI input yet - I don't count Husa...

It's been a very long while since there was a 2 stroke at the front down here. Running on the big tracks exposes amateur tuning like nothing else - and it gets expensive too. I can only conclude that the FXR/CBR status quo will remain as I can't see anyone here spending the necessary...And the FXR's are remarkably tolerant of running wide open for long periods.

[F5 Dave]

It certainly exposed mine. :rolleyes:

At least on the 100. But crankpin should Have fixed that.

No I think let those who ride decide.

[husaberg]

Why not ? You know more about the cost of speed than most.

I note that there's no SI input yet - I don't count Husa...

It's been a very long while since there was a 2 stroke at the front down here. Running on the big tracks exposes amateur tuning like nothing else - and it gets expensive too. I can only conclude that the FXR/CBR status quo will remain as I can't see anyone here spending the necessary...And the FXR's are remarkably tolerant of running wide open for long periods.

fair enough......
Explains why i only got coal for Xmas too......:whistle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXP0S0Xz9OE

[TZ350]

I note that there's no SI input yet.

South Island, I had a chat with Yowling today, it seems they are not keen. Buckets at CHCH tag along with the development class at big bike meetings on the full track and another class would add extra admin work and have Super Buckets running with Standard Buckets. They are not keen.

North Island, Mt Wellington as well as F5 and sidecars they run F4 A B and C grades to make life a little safer on the small cart tracks for the various levels of ability. Similar for the GP and North Island series organizers.

North and South don’t seem keen on another class and the very real extra admin and compliance issues with a standard production class.

Wellington, I am not sure if its still the case, but Wellington used to ran without MNZ involvement so not sure why you would need an official class there for Super Buckets because I guess that without seeking MNZ official blessings Wellington can run what they like, maybe same for PN.


I was violently opposed to mx engines. I have softened my opinion now but I don't think that the proposed changes are right.

Me too.

Maybe something like, F4 two stroke engines over 85cc must be derived from non competition ……

Cuts out the admin and compliance issues, and allows for an easy mx85 build for those that want the simplicity of that. With the added benefit of taking away any doubt about the Aprila, Derbi and other easily available after market cylinders. And without the OEM restriction it would allow the tuners a wider range of interesting possibilities.

You may be able to buy a good MX85 engine but my recent experience with a currently class legal and unmodified NSR MC21 cylinder tells me that without a lot of drama, one can quite easily build something better if you have a mind too.

Anyway that is my thoughts.

[TALLIS]

No I think let those who ride decide.

Nothing more true than this

[FastFred]

True, and those responsible for organization and compliance too.

[F5 Dave]

Changed my mind and decided for you;

Victa engines for everyone. Must retain the grass catcher.

[FastFred]

Team ESE has one of those, pictures later.

[Grumph]

Changed my mind and decided for you;

Victa engines for everyone. Must retain the grass catcher.

Did you know Phil Irving designed those ?

Got a pic here somewhere of a V16 engine a mad Aussie is building using Victa barrels and joined - up cranks.....

[F5 Dave]

Well. No. I did not.

Race pedigree. I'll have to go put some motul stickers on mine.

Except it went to the dump 15 yes ago after a vicious sledgehammer attack.
Fucker won't do that again. Or not do that again. Or whatever I was mad about.

[Yow Ling]

South Island, I had a chat with Yowling today, it seems they are not keen. Buckets at CHCH tag along with the development class at big bike meetings on the full track and another class would add extra admin work and have Super Buckets running with Standard Buckets. They are not keen.

North Island, Mt Wellington as well as F5 and sidecars they run F4 A B and C grades to make life a little safer on the small cart tracks for the various levels of ability. Similar for the GP and North Island series organizers.

North and South don’t seem keen on another class and the very real extra admin and compliance issues with a standard production class.

Wellington, I am not sure if its still the case, but Wellington used to ran without MNZ involvement so not sure why you would need an official class there for Super Buckets because I guess that without seeking MNZ official blessings Wellington can run what they like, maybe same for PN.



Me too.

Maybe something like, F4 two stroke engines over 85cc must be derived from non competition ……

Cuts out the admin and compliance issues, and allows for an easy mx85 build for those that want the simplicity of that. With the added benefit of taking away any doubt about the Aprila, Derbi and other easily available after market cylinders. And without the OEM restriction it would allow the tuners a wider range of interesting p ossibilities.

You may be able to buy a good MX85 engine but my recent experience with a currently class legal and unmodified NSR MC21 cylinder tells me that without a lot of drama, one can quite easily build something better if you have a mind too.

Anyway that is my thoughts.

I was not actually speaking for everyone down here, I personally dont think the time is right and having a new seperate class will only move racers sideways . I think the new Suzuki class will be problematic enough where are they going to run them, cant see them getting a seperate race , depending on exactly what model the GSX150FDZAL7 actually is, they may well be alot slower than the current buckets.

Is this Gixxer class going to run full track on NI circuits? will they just run them off the back of the Hosung grid , or are they thinking of putting them on a kart track, where they would possibly do best.

The 85's break one of the founding rules in that it allows competition engines into the class, this has worked for nearly 40 years and may be one of the reasons buckets is such a good class.

I realise they have this class in Australia, but they also have snakes and poisonus spiders that we dont want here either.

Ultimatly it isnt really up to MNZ to decide, it comes down to the host clubs , if they dont want it , then it wont happen

[jasonu]

Changed my mind and decided for you;

Victa engines for everyone. Must retain the grass catcher.

You should submit it. Apparently anyone can submit anything and get it heard no matter if it makes sense or not.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Doesn't really matter if they are let in or not, they're already there in the guise of an AM6 or Derbi with a 90cc kit. The only difference is that a AM6 or Derbi is pain the arse to get here in NZ, 85 MXers are off the shelf.

Personally I don't understand the backlash to the MX85s these days. Buckets is not what it once was. Bikes are now selling in the 5-10k budget range and the biggest gripe people have about 85mx engines is that they are 'competition'.

[husaberg]

Doesn't really matter if they are let in or not, they're already there in the guise of an AM6 or Derbi with a 90cc kit. The only difference is that a AM6 or Derbi is pain the arse to get here in NZ, 85 MXers are off the shelf.

Personally I don't understand the backlash to the MX85s these days. Buckets is not what it once was. Bikes are now selling in the 5-10k budget range and the biggest gripe people have about 85mx engines is that they are 'competition'.

Each to his own i guess , but Yeah maybe you are right, Maybe they should just let the tour de france cyclists and all he olympians take steriods as well.;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvtJPs8IDgU

[jasonu]

Bikes are now selling in the 5-10k budget range .

Really?????

[timg]

Really?????
$10k+ for some:gob:

[F5 Dave]

I think you mean advertised for dumb prices, not actually sold for.

Anyone want to buy my $9000 MBRS? A bargain it seems.

I'd be more keen on excluding late model KX and KTM plus having std ignitions and carbs. I think that formula might work with F4 and be easy to police.

But as I said; I should shut the fuck up.

Until 2027 when I make my return.

Then I'll propose all MX engines open mods. . . but they must run on knobbly tyres.

[TZ350]

Until 2027 when I make my return.

Then I'll propose all MX engines open mods. . . but they must run on knobbly tyres.

329863

Buckets ... 2027 post apocalypse ... F4 ... MX85 racing motorcycle.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Really?????

Yes, really.

[Sketchy_Racer]

329863

Buckets ... 2027 post apocalypse ... F4 ... MX85 racing motorcycle.


It'll be the death of us all!

[F5 Dave]

With a bit of luck. Looks like a foul stroke.

[denefoster]

As someone somewhat new, and having built two new buckets in the last year, one being a project TF125 and the last one being one of the only AM6s to show up for sale in a long ass time.

Would definitely have gone the MX85 route if i could have, even just getting an intake for a TF that will take a standard spigot mount carb meant CAD + engineering shop. Both super pricey and not easy if you don't have the skills, and that's about where my skills end. Being able to buy off the shelf parts for the AM6 is an amazing experience compared to the TF.

Acquiring an RG/RS barrel, and measuring/machining adapters etc is great if you've got a shop, an encyclopaedic knowledge of "vintage" parts and the tools otherwise it's a huge bill and not really different than just buying an off the shelf part.

The modern 4 stoke options ain't cheap either. R15s, even crashed sell for 3k minimum, FXRs while mostly available are pretty long in the tooth and not all that cheap. Grom ? GXSR150 ? ETX150 ?

I do think a separate class is stupid, doubtful a stock 85/ignition/carb would come in and toast every other bike in F4, make'm stock and toss them in with the rest imo.

[Autech]

Anyone want to crunch some numbers and work out roughly how much a super unmodified would cost to build vs a competitive fxr?
I've already sent feedback to mnz against the creation of the class as I think buckets are already diverse enough with the current rules. That said if it were to dramatically reduce the build costs of a bucket it would be worth looking into with more refining in the future, all in the interests of building a level playing field.


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[Grumph]

Anyone want to crunch some numbers and work out roughly how much a super unmodified would cost to build vs a competitive fxr?
I've already sent feedback to mnz against the creation of the class as I think buckets are already diverse enough with the current rules. That said if it were to dramatically reduce the build costs of a bucket it would be worth looking into with more refining in the future, all in the interests of building a level playing field.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Depends what you mean by a level playing field...If it's economic, I've never seen a rule limiting what you can spend on a bike.
If it's performance, move to a one - make series. Still not level though as abilities vary....

Buckets was never about a level playing field, but it was about doing more with less by using your brain and skills.

It's pretty much the only class left where this is still the main thrust.

[husaberg]

Depends what you mean by a level playing field...If it's economic, I've never seen a rule limiting what you can spend on a bike.
If it's performance, move to a one - make series. Still not level though as abilities vary....

Buckets was never about a level playing field, but it was about doing more with less by using your brain and skills.

It's pretty much the only class left where this is still the main thrust.

Its would be pretty hard for an amateur kiwi to compete with KTM R&D teams resources.
I have seen the insides and those late KTM85 and 105's are pretty much a Reed valve GP bike.

[TALLIS]

Am6 modified is = to MX85s, if not, better. Not that hard to find on overseas if you want 1. Easier to get the bits for, already excepted in the rules apparently. So a rule change is really pointless. Keeping it "non comp" is what buckets is.

[Tard]

...and...if the rules are to remain the same i.e. 'non-competition' I believe that makes the new Suzuki GSX-R150 (for the Suzuki Asian Challenge series) ineligible for F4? :mellow:

[Grumph]

...and...if the rules are to remain the same i.e. 'non-competition' I believe that makes the new Suzuki GSX-R150 (for the Suzuki Asian Challenge series) ineligible for F4? :mellow:

Doubtful - remember the CBR150's had an international series too in which people like Avalon came to notice....But the road versions are perfectly acceptable in F4.
A GSXR150 bought straight out of that series - probably ineligible. But a bike sold as a road bike ? I see no problems.

[Autech]

Depends what you mean by a level playing field...If it's economic, I've never seen a rule limiting what you can spend on a bike.
If it's performance, move to a one - make series. Still not level though as abilities vary....

Buckets was never about a level playing field, but it was about doing more with less by using your brain and skills.

It's pretty much the only class left where this is still the main thrust.

100% right. This 85MX engine series would turn into more of a Moto2 style class where the chassis is the factor, providing all 85s are built equal that is. Going off how I fell asleep during the Moto2 race this morning I'm not sure it's the correct format.


Its would be pretty hard for an amateur kiwi to compete with KTM R&D teams resources.
I have seen the insides and those late KTM85 and 105's are pretty much a Reed valve GP bike.

I'd still pitch my Waldo FXR against any 85cc MX engine, it may lack a bit in peak power but she's got a stack of mid range :rockon:.
The point I was getting at was my engine cost around 3k to purchase and build, not exactly a cheap affair if a 85 MX engine costs a lot less and could give it a run for a money. But you don't NEED to spend that kind of coin for a bucket I guess so I've just answered my own question lol.

Ignore me, everyone else does.

Going forward though the FXR engines are getting few and far between (every time I've tried to purchase a spare it's been snaffled up).
Is there a chance that we may end up having to go to something different if we blow them all up?

[FastFred]

329941329942

Honda Suzuki and Yamaha all offer 150cc sports bikes. I expect there will be plenty of good 4T Bucket racers available for the next few years.

[Autech]

329941329942

Honda Suzuki and Yamaha all offer 150cc sports bikes. I expect there will be plenty of good 4T Bucket racers available for the next few years.

Plus fuel injection which makes me moist


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[F5 Dave]

Container from Indonesia or it's a bit pointless.

There's a chapter oop norf who built a bucket from a RM80 chassis and put a RG150 bottom end in it. Cut down suspension 17" wheels. You'd never know and it looks quite useful. Course he's had no end of shagging around trying to get sleeved motor sorted.

Cheap blown RM. Rebuild using pattern parts mxparts.co.nz
bit of wheel lacing, suspension spacers, new pegs tailpiece. 3k build entirely feasible.

[Autech]

Container from Indonesia or it's a bit pointless.


Now there's an idea...


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[Yow Ling]

Doubtful - remember the CBR150's had an international series too in which people like Avalon came to notice....But the road versions are perfectly acceptable in F4.
A GSXR150 bought straight out of that series - probably ineligible. But a bike sold as a road bike ? I see no problems.

Seeing as it would have been derived from a non competition bike before it was a competion bike it would be perfectly elegible, so what other competition bikes are derived from non competition bikes which you could argue would make them eligible, and what non competition bikes are derived from competion bikes , what came first TF125 or RM125A ?

[husaberg]

Now there's an idea...


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There is a thread where a guy offered to do that.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/150443-2-stroke-engines-from-Thailand/page7

[Henk]

Spoke to a guy on Sunday who had been to somewhere in Asia with the idea of shipping back a bunch of bits while he was there. He basically commented that they don't have wreckers there but keep stuff going forever. I guess shipping back whole bikes could be an option.

[Autech]

Spoke to a guy on Sunday who had been to somewhere in Asia with the idea of shipping back a bunch of bits while he was there. He basically commented that they don't have wreckers there but keep stuff going forever. I guess shipping back whole bikes could be an option.

I have this vision of opening up a shipping container and there being stacks of fxrs just waiting to be hacked up.


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[Grumph]

Seeing as it would have been derived from a non competition bike before it was a competion bike it would be perfectly elegible, so what other competition bikes are derived from non competition bikes which you could argue would make them eligible, and what non competition bikes are derived from competion bikes , what came first TF125 or RM125A ?

You make a good - if convoluted - point. If the TF and RM parts are the same number, no problem. Same criteria across other manufacturers too IMO.

But if a half days run of GSXR150's are pulled off the line, have all the road gear pulled off them and other things changed too. Then are supplied to the organisers of a race series as race bikes.....They're race bikes IMO.
Or alernatively as the Trump camp would argue, they're factory converted Bucket racers....

Don't ask me to sit on an appeal jury please.

[Grumph]

I have this vision of opening up a shipping container and there being stacks of fxrs just waiting to be hacked up.


A friend wanted to get a speedway small car class going here using bike engines. In the course of his work he was in the Phillipines and discovered that the motor he wanted - a Kawasaki - was manufactured there. He talked to the factory and they were happy to supply him with as many engine/carb/ignition packages as he wanted. A Kawasaki 400 twin 4 stroke engine package for $1200NZ landed here.

Anyone going to Thailand ?