New crash study.

[Zedder]

Goodness me but a lot of you get your Victoria Secrets in a right tortured wrangle up your collective fannys over cassinas posts!!

Life is too short for that kind of carry on methinks!


Maybe some are, but then again some are also having a bloody good laugh.

[Zedder]

I quite enjoyed the ZX10 ride - sounded great,


The Harley fails ...... I'm starting to have issues with Mericans and their led-sleds.......


Sure, it sounded great but I kept going shiiiiit! every time he was splitting. Haha led-sleds.

[Moi]

To the OP, thanks for the link to the study. As others have said, made interesting reading and provided food for thought. As someone said, would be worthwhile replicating the study - certainly have to agree that using some of the safety fees paid to fund such a replicated study would be money well spent.



As for 23 pages of, I'll be polite and say, "debate"...

Reminds me of the story, probably apocryphal, of the memo from head office to a small branch office requesting information. Memo duly replied to and returned to head office. Memo returns from head office, small branch office considers that from reading the second question that head office didn't read the reply and just sent the memo again with slightly different wording. So replied for second time. Memo returns for third visit. Heck those in head office seem to be rather slow on the up take thinks small branch office but to help head office writes reply for third time but this time in words of mainly one syllable. Next Monday memo is back! Bloody heck, they're not just a bit slow but they're also really dimwitted thinks small branch office and leaves the reply until Tuesday when it is dispatched to head office. Thursday memo returns with all of the questions and replies attached with another version of the original question. On Friday small branch office replies: "This correspondence will cease forthwith!"

Small branch office has lived a quiet and peaceful life since...

[Viking01]

I have decided to call myself The Pied Piper of Kiwi Biker as a result of the following I have and I bet if I was leading a group ride of them they would follow if I went over a cliff.

Yes, whatever.

As for the group ride, I'm not so sure they would follow you over. We tend to try and follow a
reasonable distance behind and avoid target fixation.

However, I feel confident that there might be plenty that might stop near the edge and applaud.

[caspernz]

Yes, whatever.

As for the group ride, I'm not so sure they would follow you over. We tend to try and follow a
reasonable distance behind and avoid target fixation.

However, I feel co:wacko:nfident that there might be plenty that might stop near the edge and applaud.

I'll happily bring fireworks to that occasion :clap:

[Zedder]

I'll happily bring fireworks to that occasion :clap:


I'll supply the single malt!

[pritch]

That Suzuki clip made me feel uncomfortable as do a lot of clips made on European motorways. The riders are placing a lot of faith in the various drivers; wouldn't pay to do that here.

The Kawasaki one was more relaxed and it was a nice bit of road, nice weather too.

The Harley one included the classic that I expected to see, worth a giggle - if you weren't one of the "stars".

[Gremlin]

I forgot that you did coverage for cycling events. Been a bad couple of years in Europe for moto's and riders - UCI still hasn't worked out a way of bringing moto safety into the peloton...
Always the case, topic rears its head every incident. Events would be safer without vehicles, but cease to exist because of sponsors not getting air time.

While you lot were mass debating with cassina, World Master Games was on, and today was the criterium. Next weekend is triathlon and road race. Pic courtesy of a mate.

Just a note that the cyclists were definitely trying to keep up, but we play that game every time :innocent:

[madbikeboy]

That Suzuki clip made me feel uncomfortable as do a lot of clips made on European motorways. The riders are placing a lot of faith in the various drivers; wouldn't pay to do that here.

The Kawasaki one was more relaxed and it was a nice bit of road, nice weather too.

The Harley one included the classic that I expected to see, worth a giggle - if you weren't one of the "stars".

That was the world famous Ghostrider, a mad Swedish guy who is also a very, very competent racer. The level of driving in Sweden is WAY better than here in terms of space and predictability - people there are trained much better than Kiwi drivers.

The Kwak film was from Cypress, he's a pretty good rider.

Never underestimate the ability of Americans on Harleys to surprise with their level of ineptitude. I have ridden with very few Americans who can ride competently.

[madbikeboy]

Always the case, topic rears it's head every incident. Events would be safer without vehicles, but cease to exist because of sponsors not getting air time.

While you lot were mass debating with cassina, World Master Games was on, and today was the criterium. Next weekend is triathlon and road race. Pic courtesy of a mate.

Just a note that the cyclists were definitely trying to keep up, but we play that game every time :innocent:

Totally agree, it's a tough balance. As a camera platform goes, nothing beats a moto - I've always wanted to ride the TdF or Giro as a moto (I used to dream of riding the TdF but I lack talent).

Are you short of riders for the event?

We did some experimentation a decade ago with a world champion to see a what distance the draft from a motorcycle was actually still advantageous, and it's a long way further apart than any of us had guessed. Even riding close, directly alongside depending on the bike, there was some draft available (again, not what we expected to see).

[madbikeboy]

If thats the way you ride one thing is certain you will beat me into the cemetery. 2 riders went in yesterday in NZ did you know. The media reported that the cop at the scene said motorcyclists need to slow down and ride to the conditions which does give me the impression they were at fault. The cop also said the accident cause was still being investigated which appears in conflict with his first statement that he should not really have made under the circumstances.

I guarantee I'll live longer than you - your anxiety and fears have already killed the life in you.

As for commenting on an accident, for which you were not present, or have no direct knowledge of, only provides disrespect to the families of those involved. You should be ashamed of yourself. The fact that you aren't speaks volumes of your lack of character.

[Gremlin]

Are you short of riders for the event?

We did some experimentation a decade ago with a world champion to see a what distance the draft from a motorcycle was actually still advantageous, and it's a long way further apart than any of had guessed. Even riding close, directly alongside depending on the bike, there was some draft available (again, not what we expected to see).
Should be Ok, biggest is tri at 10 riders, should have that. In terms of draft, rules are 35m and usually 2-3m wide. Filming is when we're the red headed step child. Gotta get close to get the footage, gotta stay away to keep officials happy...

[Viking01]

I was just joking. I would never be fast enough to lead them anyway. They would just get bored and go on their own group ride with the person owning the fastest bike being the leader.

Look, I'd appreciate it if you'd leave the humour to me, and if you just concentrated on what you're good at
(leading them in circles and on flights of fancy).

[nzspokes]

Totally agree, it's a tough balance. As a camera platform goes, nothing beats a moto - I've always wanted to ride the TdF or Giro as a moto (I used to dream of riding the TdF but I lack talent).

Are you short of riders for the event?

We did some experimentation a decade ago with a world champion to see a what distance the draft from a motorcycle was actually still advantageous, and it's a long way further apart than any of us had guessed. Even riding close, directly alongside depending on the bike, there was some draft available (again, not what we expected to see).

There are plenty of tours you can do with backup on the TDF routes. A few let you do the easy bits and van you up the hard bits. Or stop at every winery along the way.

I was on Alp De Huez in 03, they recon there was 1 million people on the hill. I would not have wanted to be parting the way up that on a Moto.

[Voltaire]

I have decided to call myself The Pied Piper of Kiwi Biker as a result of the following I have and I bet if I was leading a group ride of them they would follow if I went over a cliff.

That would only happen as you don't have ABS and relying on 70s twin pot calipers, everyone else on said ride would stop in time.:nya:

I bet your father ranted on about how good horse and carts were....

[george formby]

While I don't know the specifics about Swedish driver training I have read a few posts on here and other forums that claim European driver training is better than ours. If that was the case though why then do they kill on NZ roads when they come to visit? Just because someone says they learnt to drive in a particular country never assume they are a better driver than you.


A persons opinion on the answer to your question would depend on how effective they considered training to be.:yawn:

[Viking01]

But you are yet to make me laugh. I have make poster AllanB laugh so 1 to me 0 to you.

Well, humour is a very personal thing and it's not always possible to make everyone laugh
(especially those without a sense of humour).

And as for the score being 1-0 in your favour. In your dreams. You haven't seem my email
Inbox the last few days

[Laava]

But you are yet to make me laugh. I have make poster AllanB laugh so 1 to me 0 to you.

There is a big difference between laughing at you and laughing with you. Cant for the life of me work out why you pursue this topic? If you are serious = fail! If you are trolling= fail!

[Voltaire]

I was just joking with that comment. Did you see my post about ABS cars crashing more than non ABS cars due to their drivers thinking ABS will save them in any situation that was stated in an article I read? I guess its a bit like guys on here thinking going to a riding school will keep them safe no matter what too.

For what its worth I have actually test riden a bike with ABS and the same bike without ABS but having new technology sintered brake pads and I only noticed a slight stability improvement with the ABS on a dry road and compared to the sintered only pad bike. I did not notice any difference in stopping distance. I felt though going from an organic brake pad to sintered improves stopping distance. There has been debate on here in the past about ABS and non ABS stopping times and others have said there is litte difference with one or 2 posters claiming their non ABS bike can stop quicker. Disc size and the number of pots as you say no doubt plays a part too.

I had a Ducati ST4S with ABS and I only tried it out once on a dry road and yes it worked.
Didn't keep the bike long as downgraded to a 900SS which I prefer.
I've seen the vids and yes an ABS bike will stop in a shorter distance than a non ABS bike.

I suspect with non ABS brakes extending following distance with cars, especially in the wet on the motorway ( when its moving) is a good idea as highly likely in an emergency stop I'd lock the front.

I did nearly crash into the back of a Tuk Tuk a couple of years ago in Agra India....a moments inattention, the dig in the ribs from the Missus had me full on the brakes...well ...what passes as brakes on a Royal Enfield.

[Gremlin]

For what its worth I have actually test riden a bike with ABS and the same bike without ABS but having new technology sintered brake pads and I only noticed a slight stability improvement with the ABS on a dry road and compared to the sintered only pad bike. I did not notice any difference in stopping distance. I felt though going from an organic brake pad to sintered improves stopping distance. There has been debate on here in the past about ABS and non ABS stopping times and others have said there is litte difference with one or 2 posters claiming their non ABS bike can stop quicker. Disc size and the number of pots as you say no doubt plays a part too.
Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.

[george formby]

Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.

Well said and true. Last time I was caught out due to a moments inattention and had to chuck the anchor out I chirped the front with my initial reaction.

A is for Anti Lock and it's a no brainer, really

[Akzle]

I bet if I was leading a group ride of them they would follow if I went over a cliff.
try it by yourself, first, just as a practice run eh...




I'll happily bring fireworks to that occasion :clap:


I'll supply the single malt!

i'll put on a bonfire and some kind of meaty goodness.

[Akzle]

Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.


dig it. and i would never claim that i could out-brake ABS. just that i don't ever tend to find myself in situations where slamming the brakes is the best course of action. ever.

[Akzle]

Well said and true. Last time I was caught out due to a moments inattention and had to chuck the anchor out I chirped the front with my initial reaction.

A is for Anti Lock and it's a no brainer, really

never ridden a cicle with ABS, and only tripped it in a cage twice. once was a rav4 on a boat ramp, i lolled so hard (not my rav4)

second was enthusiastically (and deliberately) decelerating a toy-mota sporty thing, levin or trueno or some shit. but my instinct to not-lock-the-cunt-up-and-sledge took over so it was only a moment, 3 or four pulses, then a fokken sikk skid.

i'd never advocate it as a safety feature. it's more an inattentive-moron-feature.

[pritch]

Recalling a conversation about filming sports events, the rider who was carrying a cameraman, was told by an official to move quickly from A to B some kilometres away.
The next time things slowed down enough for conversation the cameraman asked. "How fast were we going back there?"

The answer went something like this, "I know a lot of guys who've done the ton up on a bike, but you are the only one I know who did it facing backwards."

Gremlin and others will know the rider, but it's not my place to give his name.

[Gremlin]

Let me stress I am not rubbishing ABS technology as being an aid but just the cost of it if it packs up and you will find that out yourself if yours does, being a BMW rider as the high cost I was told was for a BMW ABS repair. Sadly if you want all the latest safety aids they cost big money. I am not sure but I think on some of the latest BMW bikes they now incorporate a tip over warning system if you corner too hard. Despite having never come off while leaned over in a corner that would be a safety feature I see as giving me a bit of piece of mind when I corner.
You tried pricing up anything? BMW final drive wears out (the worn part wasn't replaceable), $3300 for a new one. Air bags in cars? afaik, you can't replace, so the entire vehicle is written off. Engines, clutches, drivetrains, they all wear out. You'll replace the battery / starter motor at some point, they cost too. I've already replaced my drive shaft, final drive and shocks amongst other things. At new prices there is no change from $10k just for those 3 items. Yay for Ebay and wreckers. :2thumbsup

A client had a VW Golf with DSG gearbox. Couple of times it decided it didn't have any gears during overtakes (neutral, yay) and once an error was logged, the entire gearbox ($15k) was replaced - under warranty. A cameraman I've worked with had a Touareg. ABS unit got wet, wiring loom affected as well. New ABS was $3k ish, new wiring loom... $20k+ (factory special order, custom built as wasn't being produced) Insurance write off as it was only worth $10k. Parts cost, shoes are cheaper. So perhaps walking is the best option for you?

Don't think I'd want a tip over system, depending on what it did. Many times it would be a really bad thing, unless the bike was already over on it's side, then sure, cut the ignition.

[Akzle]

Are you agreeing with me

no. no. FUCKING NO. I will NEVAR agree with ANY part of ANYTHING you post.

fuck off and die.

[Akzle]

The only reason for that is shit just has never happened fast enough for you to need to emergency brake. It happened in my accidents so quick it would not have mattered if I had had no brakes. Shit does not travel at a constant speed.

no. you fucking idiot. the main reason i've never been in that situation is because i'm not a blithering dipshit, and actually maintain some kind of focus on shit that's going on around (and particularly in front) me.

my perception of time isn't skewed by panic.
(ever. possibly due to many years of drug ab/use)

try it sometime, you might surprise yourself (more, you'll surprise everyone else too, surely that's worth something to your puny minimum-wage ego)

i should possibly mention that i frequently exceed the posted limit (even around corners, too :O ), and by more than your gay "10-15"

[Laava]

And for you to be posting considering you opinion of my views I give you a PASS for WASTING YOUR TIME!!

I was taking a dump.

[Akzle]

I will repeat again you have just got lucky so far
your totally right. not being hit by heavy shit is 100 percents luck. i should probably buy more lotto tickets.


and it would not hurt to practise some emergency braking just in case your luck runs out.
all aboard the ass-umption train!


If you dont know how to emergency brake I bet more that likely you will end up panicing yourself.
WOO-WOO!



Maybe go to a riding school and learn how to do it?
how could you possibly advocate that now, when you've been so critical of them in the past?
surely they're going to teach me to feel under pressure and ride the centre line and...errr, whatever the fuck else you wank on about from your position of ignorance having never been to one...
(or did your WOF guy tell you?)


All my emergency braking so far has been successful where shit his given me time to do it.i make my own time. but hey. don't let me stop you.

[Zedder]

I was taking a dump.


Yep, it has that effect alright.

[Akzle]

Just get a lesson focussed on how to emergency brake if like me you have doubts about the benefit of anything else.

i have grave (oh!) doubts about the benefits of all the shit you post.

what should i do?
(oh!)

(that's rhetorical you idiot. see point number "fuck off and die", above)

[onearmedbandit]

I will repeat again you have just got lucky so far and it would not hurt to practise some emergency braking just in case your luck runs out. If you dont know how to emergency brake I bet more that likely you will end up panicing yourself. Maybe go to a riding school and learn how to do it? All my emergency braking so far has been successful where shit his given me time to do it.

Ok can you clear something up for me? You constantly go on about 'luck', as if it's the only thing protecting us out there. So therefore do you believe that being aware of constant hazards etc serves no benefit?

[swbarnett]

Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.
To my mind the question of out-braking ABS is still unresolved and will always be so. I have successfully out-braked both an ABS car and bike on my non-ABS GSX. However, as you say, this was in controlled practice conditions in ideal weather. On the other hand I have done emergency braking successfully several times on different bikes with the front tyre right on the edge of losing traction (some on wet roads) using a combination of friction and engine braking (through all the gears until stopped). My gut feel is that ABS would likely have equalled this performance but not outdone it. Can I prove this? No. I'm willing to admit that this is only a gut feel and may be wrong. Until we have continuous monitoring on ALL bikes (over my dead body) we will never have enough data to say for sure.

My only real concern with ABS is that, like any other "aid", coming to rely on it may result in a problem if you ever have to fall back on your own emergency braking skills. If it never fails then this is, of course, a mute point.

[Gremlin]

I'm probably one of those unusual ones. I've activated the ABS on the BMW many times. Rear is easy, even on sealed roads because of the long travel suspension etc. Front is harder, very rare on sealed roads (partially because of improved riding skills, I very rarely "test" it now) but very easy on gravel to activate one or the other, or both, at will. I also turn off as required, almost always on technical terrain, where I need to lock the wheels. It also has traction control (amongst other things), also tested on seal and gravel regularly. Also high-sided with TC enabled, when it cut my power too late when I was already at opposite lock and steering into the slide (no power = no slide = abrupt change in direction)

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. Front was mostly a case of braking after acceleration, so less weight on the front which meant it lost traction. Obviously get off the brake before you hit the deck.

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

[nzspokes]

I'm probably one of those unusual ones. I've activated the ABS on the BMW many times. Rear is easy, even on sealed roads because of the long travel suspension etc. Front is harder, very rare on sealed roads (partially because of improved riding skills, I very rarely "test" it now) but very easy on gravel to activate one or the other, or both, at will. I also turn off as required, almost always on technical terrain, where I need to lock the wheels. It also has traction control (amongst other things), also tested on seal and gravel regularly. Also high-sided with TC enabled, when it cut my power too late when I was already at opposite lock and steering into the slide (no power = no slide = abrupt change in direction)

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. Front was mostly a case of braking after acceleration, so less weight on the front which meant it lost traction. Obviously get off the brake before you hit the deck.

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

I bought my main road bike because it had ABS.

It wont be tired. It wont panic if I do. It wont miscalculate a loose surface.

Its not perfect but I will take it.

[Ocean1]

I'm probably one of those unusual ones. I've activated the ABS on the BMW many times. Rear is easy, even on sealed roads because of the long travel suspension etc. Front is harder, very rare on sealed roads (partially because of improved riding skills, I very rarely "test" it now) but very easy on gravel to activate one or the other, or both, at will. I also turn off as required, almost always on technical terrain, where I need to lock the wheels. It also has traction control (amongst other things), also tested on seal and gravel regularly. Also high-sided with TC enabled, when it cut my power too late when I was already at opposite lock and steering into the slide (no power = no slide = abrupt change in direction)

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. Front was mostly a case of braking after acceleration, so less weight on the front which meant it lost traction. Obviously get off the brake before you hit the deck.

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

Couple of adds. 100 lbf-ft torque makes traction control a little more useful even on apparently "good" surfaces.

I usually turn off ABS (rear only) when I'm headed anywhere with long stretches of gravel too. TC also, I've never come close to high hi siding because TC turned the wick down half way around a corner, but I'm fucked if I'll have "computer says no" override perfectly good dirt reflexes it took me decades to learn and which still work fine.

Like you with ABS, I like both on elsewhere, at the very least in extremis they might just help, and I don't see any situations where they'll hurt.

[scumdog]

i have grave (oh!) doubts about the benefits of all the shit you post.

what should i do?
(oh!)

(that's rhetorical you idiot. see point number "fuck off and die", above)


What should you do?

Get a bike for a start.

[madbikeboy]

Should be Ok, biggest is tri at 10 riders, should have that. In terms of draft, rules are 35m and usually 2-3m wide. Filming is when we're the red headed step child. Gotta get close to get the footage, gotta stay away to keep officials happy...

Give me a yell if you get stuck (if nine riders end up with mumps or something). Can you also post some pictures of the pillion seat seat up.

I've been given stand downs in non drafting events where a rider has overtaken me and then cut back in too fast. From a officials point of view it looks like the person behind is drafting. And you can't tell an officious anything... I saw a angry competitor at Ironman in WA throw a bike at an official in that circumstance...

[madbikeboy]

Ok can you clear something up for me? You constantly go on about 'luck', as if it's the only thing protecting us out there. So therefore do you believe that being aware of constant hazards etc serves no benefit?

Luck and juju beans. I also carry a rabbiting bit. Although I can't understand why carrying a router part will help.

[madbikeboy]

I

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

The truth about situations where ABS is useful is that the commonality is the surprise factor. Something happens that wasn't expected, the normal reaction is to pump the brake, adrenalin kicks in, brain looses a good amount of mass and the walnut sized medulla oblongata starts taking over in that moment.

Training and practise over-rides this natural reaction. But, for most people, that surprise circumstance is normally a cascading sequence of events that takes attention. Hence the prior comments that in a well lit, dry, easily planned tactical event - a competent rider can brake as well as ABS.

But, here in lies the rub. That's not where surprise factor situations happen. They happen when you've worked all day, the light is bad, the road is slick, and the $20 dollars worth of attention is somewhere else.

The ABS denies the initial lock up, and it translates to two important things. One, it identifies and manages the traction. Two, this is the bit that most people don't get - it also allows you to change direction and steer. Most riders can brake well in straight line with practice. Very few can brake at full brakes and then change direction. A good ABS and traction control set up allows you to brake hard, turn in while trail braking too much, and then stabilise the unsettled bike so you don't end up with a 90 degree lean angle.

Is ABS worth the money? Yes. Is it expensive to maintain? No. Is it reliable? Yes.

[madbikeboy]

You tried pricing up anything? BMW final drive wears out (the worn part wasn't replaceable), $3300 for a new one. Air bags in cars? afaik, you can't replace, so the entire vehicle is written off. Engines, clutches, drivetrains, they all wear out. You'll replace the battery / starter motor at some point, they cost too. I've already replaced my drive shaft, final drive and shocks amongst other things. At new prices there is no change from $10k just for those 3 items. Yay for Ebay and wreckers. :2thumbsup

A client had a VW Golf with DSG gearbox. Couple of times it decided it didn't have any gears during overtakes (neutral, yay) and once an error was logged, the entire gearbox ($15k) was replaced - under warranty. A cameraman I've worked with had a Touareg. ABS unit got wet, wiring loom affected as well. New ABS was $3k ish, new wiring loom... $20k+ (factory special order, custom built as wasn't being produced) Insurance write off as it was only worth $10k. Parts cost, shoes are cheaper. So perhaps walking is the best option for you?

Don't think I'd want a tip over system, depending on what it did. Many times it would be a really bad thing, unless the bike was already over on it's side, then sure, cut the ignition.

I know of a Fiat 500 that was driven out of the dealership driveway and it rear-ended the car in front. 60 feet total. Just enough speed to get above the air bag turn on threshold. Seven airbags and a dimpled hood. The insurance company assessor didn't even view the car, when he heard the airbags had all gone off, he wrote it off on the spot. Car was brand new.

Airbag suspension system on a Merc AMG63 - $29,000 to replace. If I lose the key fob on my car, it's $2500 for a new key and then the ECU replacement to match it. Range Rover transmission, around $8k to rebuild. Audi Q7 entertainment system in the tailgate got wet due to a bad rubber. $15,000. CAN-BUS system affected by a bad radio forced the transmission into reverse. Problem was the car (E series Merc wagon) was doing 120 KPH at the time. $30,000 odd grand. Petrol in a CRD, injection pump runs at 2,000 PSI, the fuel detonates in the pump and then force fed shrapnel into the motor. Bad juju. Clutch on a Ferrari - $18,000. But, the winner is - I saw a woman rear tap a Lamborghini Diablo, damaged the rear bumper on the very rare SV model. $45,000 for the bumper.

[caspernz]

Well, humour is a very personal thing and it's not always possible to make everyone laugh
(especially those without a sense of humour).

And as for the score being 1-0 in your favour. In your dreams. You haven't seem my email
Inbox the last few days

Well, I for one prefer the Viking approach to humour. Perhaps sarcasm is lost on the one whose name we shall not mention...


There is a big difference between laughing at you and laughing with you. Cant for the life of me work out why you pursue this topic? If you are serious = fail! If you are trolling= fail!

Oh boy, you've hit that nail right on target chap!

But sorry all, I've missed most of the fun on Kiddiebiker today...was out most of the day riding an actual bike with some other lads. No we didn't have any ABS actuations, we avoided the odd cow wandering along a country road, must be down to good forward observation. We managed to stay upright when it rained a little, even on some of the nice shiny bits of tar bleed. This can be managed by avoiding the worst of it, and using a sensible approach speed. We saw some dogs too, but none of them were an issue today. Even spotted a horse and rider, again no problem, slow down and wave at rider, got a wave back even. Geez these country folk are so damn friendly! At one point an enthusiastic group of riders came up behind myself and my trainee, so we waved them past, and they waved back at us. The shock of it all when we didn't succumb to the temptation of trying to keep up with them...yes I know it's just boring wearing this captain sensible hat some days.

Now I just sit back and wait for the mighty Viking to summarise todays crap ejection from a certain unmentionable one into a nice easy giggle inducing read for us all.

[AllanB]

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. .

Been there on a Hornet - 100 or so round a corner to find a car passing on a blind bend heading toward me on my side parallel to the other car - heavy braking on my end, rear leaving a impressive lengthy wiggle on the road until I release all braking and hit the throttle for a 'fuck it' moment and go for the gap down the centre line. Matter of seconds but I clearly recall both drivers shocked faces as I approached.

ABS would have been nice.

Wouldn't mind it on the Ducati as well - the Brembos are serious speed killers and have that typical initial Ducati bite.

[MarkW]

I have had a reasonable amount of experience with motorcycles with and without ABS.

Starting with some of the physical motorcycle basics – the distance required to stop is largely based on the grip of the front tyre as most motorcycle front brakes have more than sufficient braking power on the front wheel to actually ultimately lock the wheel on a good surface. There are a few exceptions to this generality – with a Harley that has only a single disc on the front being the most common.

Obviously the faster you are travelling the longer it takes to stop and if the grip of the front tyre is a constant then a heavier motorcycle will also take longer to stop than a lighter one. So a sports 600 on a 120/70 17 front tyre/wheel should stop in a shorter distance than a 1200 tourer on exactly the same sized and specified tyre.

The rear brake should be used even on a sports bike. Before you all scream at me, yes I do know that many sports bikes can lift the rear wheel completely off the ground with hard use of the front brake. But you still need to slow the rear wheel down so that when you actually stop and the rear wheel hits the ground again the rear wheel is not still doing 100kph. Obviously the rear brake lever pressure required to slow a wheel in the air is pretty small and conversely a tourer or cruiser will normally need more rear brake pressure to achieve optimum stopping performance.

Different road bike pad materials make very little difference unless the pads take a long time to heat up or get too hot too fast so for a single stop in normal road riding conditions provided the pads are not down to bare metal they will generally work in the manner intended. The biggest differences that arise with the pad materials is how long the pads last and how much feedback the rider receives from the pads [through the brake lever] when braking.

The best stops are made when both wheels are braking so hard that they are both at 99.9999% of the available grip. And remain at this level of grip throughout the entire braking process. It is this last bit that is the hard bit to manage.

Most road riders are fearful of locking the front wheel at higher speeds and so tend not to get to the 99.9999% level at the start of their braking so their stopping distances is not at the optimum. Physics tells us that it is actually easier to lock a wheel as the speed drops so the lever pressure applied may need to be reduced as the speed drops so that the 99.999% level is maintained. Most road surfaces do not give exactly the same amount of grip for the 30 – 40 metres that a stop from 100kph will take. Lots of variables that all have to be sorted by the rider if the motorcycle does not have ABS.

But if the motorcycle does have ABS then there is a set of sensors and a computer that measures the speed of each wheel many times a second and if a lockup is detected uses a powerful pump to remove enough brake pressure on ONLY the wheel that is locked so that it starts turning again.

Provided sufficient lever pressure is applied to lock the wheel in the first place the ABS unit is designed to handle the variable surfaces and the reducing pressure that is needed as the speed drops.

My first ABS equipped motorcycle was a 1989 BMW K100. The ABS that this motorcycle was equipped with was effective but was slower to react than the current ABS units fitted to modern motorcycles. So when braking hard across a gravel carpark at Pukekohe on the riding courses that I ran in the early 90’s it would leave a dotted line as the front wheel locked [very briefly] and then unlocked again. 4 or 5 times a second. And the unlocking process took the front brake back to about 95% braking.

Modern ABS units are much faster acting and 20 or 30 times a second is not unusual. And the easing of the brake pressure is not as drastic so the wheel lock is for a far shorter time and the brakes only ease to very close to the maximum braking force possible.

So, yes a really good rider [or a very lucky one] can technically achieve a better braking performance on a motorcycle without ABS because they remain at the perfect 99.9999% braking level on both wheels for the entire stop. An ABS equipped motorcycle will take a tiny fraction longer to stop if either wheel gets past 100% grip as the brake on that wheel will be eased for a fraction of a second.

And if the rider is never over the 100% braking on either wheel then the ABS will never activate but the stopping distance could well be longer because the maximum braking pressure possible was never applied.

I know I’m not good enough to do the 99.9999% stop so having the ABS unit AS A BACKUP for if [when] I make a mistake is a great additional extra to my motorcycle.

If all riders have perfect positioning and lines, great observational skills and are fully engrossed in actually riding their motorcycle whilst they fully interact with the environment and all of the conditions at the time then an emergency type stop may never be required. And good luck with that.

[madbikeboy]

You must have been the poster a few years back on here that said they could beat an ABS equipped bike. Do you know how much braking ability you lose if your ABS craps out? With the identical non ABS and ABS bikes I tested on a dry road I only noticed a very slight stability improvement coming to a stop with ABS rather than an improvement in stopping distance with ABS. On a wet road having good wet road handling tyres would perhaps beat an ABS bike on not so good wet weather tyres.

No braking ability is lost if the ABS craps out. It is the same as without ABS.

Nope, wrong again about the tyre in the wet. I proved this wrong in actual testing we did a few years ago for an article - the ABS with a range of normal road tyres could always out brake the same weight bike and rider with full race wets with a 50% land to sea ratio on the same non-abs bike. This was tested across six bikes in different segments.

WHERE THE FUCK DOES YOUR WARPED MIND COME UP WITH THIS CRAP YOU SPOUT??? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND A NOOB MIGHT READ THIS CRAP AND TAKE YOUR ADVICE WITH FATAL RESULTS?????? YOUR DELUDED OPINION IS ALWAYS WRONG.

[swbarnett]

To me ABS falls in to the same category as chest and back protectors. Yes, it'll probably help in a VERY rare set of circumstances; so rare that I don't see the point.

[Swoop]

Well, you are really proving that you are more than just "stupid" but are "dangerously stupid".

[madbikeboy]

First the reason why I thought an ABS bike lost braking ability if the ABS died was due to hearing once that testing stations failed bikes with ABS if it didn't work so I must have heard that wrong myself?

My comment about good wet weather tyres being more important than ABS was if you listen to most vehicle safety messages like they put on prior to Winter the emphasis is always on checking the condition of your tyres rather than getting your ABS checked. You are the one sport with the warped mind if you think anything I post on here is done with the intention of causing others to crash and I have been posting for years and am yet to hear of any deaths as a result of my posts. I would not rule out deaths resulting from the posts of some others over the years though.

Nope. They fail cars with no working ABS because if it has ABS it's supposed to work. Same with airbags and seat belts.

The safety messages are dumbed down so even dickheads like you realise that driving worn out slicks in the rain is going to end badly. Smart people read the sales brochures and buy 5 Star ANCAP rated vehicles, they usually don't need to be told that worn tyres are bad. Joe Average and even worse, Josephine Average couldn't point to the ABS module under the hood, why waste money to advertise maintenance. That's why most workshops do a multi point service that follows the list of checks that the manufacturer recommend - Joe Average gets told the oil and fliuds are new and the brakes have been checked. The reality is that most good workshops check a fuckload more than that. People should thank their mechanics a lot more than they do - their mechanic is the one checking their brake lines with a torch and is still patient when they question his bill. How often do you replace your brake fluid.? I can tell you how I often I do, and even what type of fluid each vehicle uses. If you can't answer the basics, how can you pretend you're informed with complexity like ABS?

Ignorance like yours spreads. What happened to respecting intelligence?? When did common sense and thinking get replaced by crackpot ideas and fake news? Your stupidity puts others in danger. Think I'm wrong? Ask the KB Mods if you can be a mentor and then watch them laugh themselves into unconsciousness.

Do you think that dead people write posts on here after their passing saying I wish I hadn't listened to that bad advice?

[madbikeboy]

Thats why the Dog and Lemon Guide says Avoid Euros like the plague. They are nice to drive when they go though. My WOF guy said Euros and Subarus fail WOFs the most.

I see cars that have been crashed on a daily basis, sometimes very bad crashes. I'm sticking to my Euros. I don't give a fuck what it costs to keep my cars on the road - I care that the next drunk driver who runs a red or hits me head on after driving down a one way street the wrong way (both true events btw) isn't going to harm me. He can get hosed out of his fucking shitbox Nissan, and I'll buy another Volvo.

[Gremlin]

First the reason why I thought an ABS bike lost braking ability if the ABS died was due to hearing once that testing stations failed bikes with ABS if it didn't work so I must have heard that wrong myself?
This one needs repeating... and correcting :eek5:

Testing stations fail ABS equipped vehicles with failed ABS units, as the vehicle entered NZ with it fully functional, and was part of it's compliance getting on the road. It's considered a significant "modification" if you like. It is possible to remove ABS from the system, go through the LVV certification process and get the vehicle back on the road without ABS. Otherwise, you have to replace/repair the ABS module to get the vehicle back to standard (this is what you do with a worn tyre).

ABS interfaces with the braking system, or is a module of the braking system. MBB already touched on it but it takes measurements and decides whether the wheel is locking, and then intervenes. If it's failed, in most cases, it simply never intervenes and will throw an error. Brakes continue to work. Exception to this is probably things like BMWs servo assist brakes. They were complicated stupid things. Mate once commented he came down his gentle driveway, turned off the bike, coasted the last piece and almost ran into his garage door at 5-10kph, because without the servo running, the brakes were operating at a fraction of their full power.

Think you need to stop talking to your WOF guy... :mellow: (or perhaps stop paraphrasing all the wordy stuff he said)

[madbikeboy]

Exception to this is probably things like BMWs servo assist brakes. They were complicated stupid things. Mate once commented he came down his gentle driveway, turned off the bike, coasted the last piece and almost ran into his garage door at 5-10kph, because without the servo running, the brakes were operating at a fraction of their full power.

Think you need to stop talking to your WOF guy... :mellow: (or perhaps stop paraphrasing all the wordy stuff he said)

Yeah, like he said.

Servo assisted brakes use vacuum to drive a servo which assists the brakes. They even call the booster, well, a booster. Engineers are very clever at making names for shit, often the names describe the part and the result. Which is why I hate marketing people, they do the opposite of clarity.

When the engine isn't running then there is no vacuum, and therefore no assistance. The brakes are still there, you just need to push harder.

My 67 Mustang has no vacuum assist. This is because I'm a proper man and not a homosexual and I can push hard enough. Highly modified V8's with big cams build fuck all vacuum and I can't be bothered running an outboard pump. Plus, I'm a brainiac and I can measure master bore and stroke ratios to match my callipers. I also make mean omelettes and leap small judder bars in single bound.

The question is, how do diesels get vacuum to drive the brakes? 10 points for the first person to explain why no vacuum and how they get around it. Come on, google it...

[awayatc]

The question is, how do diesels get vacuum to drive the brakes? 10 points for the first person to explain why no vacuum and how they get around it. Come on, google it...

Coz diezelz dont go fast enuf to need brakes, didn't you know?

and it sucks enough to drive a diesel without a vacuum as well.

plus they brake much faster without vacuum if you know how to properly drive them.....


Didn't even need to google that...
been told so by Casino....

[granstar]

Great discussion but one needs to be careful of bad advice, I say ride to your skill and road conditions and mastery of the current bike, best training I ever did was riding trail bikes in my youth and learning to fall, slide, and manouvere, on the road it changes...to road and weather, and traffic conditions./ Always something new to learn, after 40+ years of owning Trumps I see this ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFiUuAywYis

[caspernz]

The question is, how do diesels get vacuum to drive the brakes? 10 points for the first person to explain why no vacuum and how they get around it. Come on, google it...

No throttle body restriction as diesel is direct injection. Separate vacuum pump does the trick.

[Voltaire]

Great discussion but one needs to be careful of bad advice, I say ride to your skill and road conditions and mastery of the current bike, best training I ever did was riding trail bikes in my youth and learning to fall, slide, and manouvere, on the road it changes...to road and weather, and traffic conditions./ Always something new to learn, after 40+ years of owning Trumps I see this ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFiUuAywYis

And also make sure your bike is in tip top shape with all the maintenance done as per the manufacturers instructions

:msn-wink:

Wow...there are some clever people on You Tube, I'm going to try it out today.:niceone:

[caspernz]

And also make sure your bike is in tip top shape with all the maintenance done as per the manufacturers instructions

:msn-wink:

Wow...there are some clever people on You Tube, I'm going to try it out today.:niceone:

That YouTube clip was sponsored by the dog & lemon guide chap I suspect. Still too technical for some...

[onearmedbandit]

To use an analogy you are in effect saying that all the people that died in the Christchurch earthquake died because they were not "hazard aware" and those that survived "were" as opposed to got lucky?
If you want to seriously avoid facing any accidental hazard in life it is perhaps you dont get out of bed in the morning. Living full stop is hazardous. You could get run over by a bus tomorrow rather than coming to grief on your bike.

Holy good fuck, what the hell are you smoking? Seriously? You're comparing the earthquake to riding a motorcycle.

See if you can understand this. A couple years back a rider here in ChCh put a video up of a car pulling out in front of them. Not only this rider, but many other 'experienced' riders were up in arms about it, many saying 'there was nothing you could do about it' or how 'no one could've seen that coming'. Now I'm not perfect, but I watched the video before reading what actually happened and I identified the hazard immediately. A car was parked on the side of the road with it's brake lights on and front wheels turned into traffic. It was obvious what was going to happen. Well to anyone who doesn't just rely on luck.

I hope I never ever find myself on the same stretch of road you're on, because you a clearly a hazard yourself.

[caspernz]

Holy good fuck, what the hell are you smoking? Seriously? You're comparing the earthquake to riding a motorcycle.

See if you can understand this. A couple years back a rider here in ChCh put a video up of a car pulling out in front of them. Not only this rider, but many other 'experienced' riders were up in arms about it, many saying 'there was nothing you could do about it' or how 'no one could've seen that coming'. Now I'm not perfect, but I watched the video before reading what actually happened and I identified the hazard immediately. A car was parked on the side of the road with it's brake lights on and front wheels turned into traffic. It was obvious what was going to happen. Well to anyone who doesn't just rely on luck.

I hope I never ever find myself on the same stretch of road you're on, because you a clearly a hazard yourself.

Take a deep breath OAB, most of us here on planet KB will chuckle at his/her stunningly fucked up way of thinking. Look on the bright side, it's now gotten so deranged it will take a seriously dim noob to believe any of the garbage proffered by him/her so we no longer need to warn them noobs...

There might be a DNA link between the North Korean leader, Trump and the one whose name we don't mention...for the logic seems roughly as thick.

[nzspokes]

Holy good fuck, what the hell are you smoking? Seriously? You're comparing the earthquake to riding a motorcycle.

See if you can understand this. A couple years back a rider here in ChCh put a video up of a car pulling out in front of them. Not only this rider, but many other 'experienced' riders were up in arms about it, many saying 'there was nothing you could do about it' or how 'no one could've seen that coming'. Now I'm not perfect, but I watched the video before reading what actually happened and I identified the hazard immediately. A car was parked on the side of the road with it's brake lights on and front wheels turned into traffic. It was obvious what was going to happen. Well to anyone who doesn't just rely on luck.

I hope I never ever find myself on the same stretch of road you're on, because you a clearly a hazard yourself.

What you described is situational awareness and observation. Cassina doesnt understand either.

[caspernz]

What you described is situational awareness and observation. Cassina doesnt understand either.

No that can't be Rob, it's all about the alignment of Pluto in relation to our moon. Oh and luck...

[AllanB]

Did the corner have a lower speed recomendation on it? If so you have just proved my point that "upping the pace" is not a bright idea on a blind bend.

Open road, no recommended corner signs.

Smack on a hundy for a change so very 'legal'

The issue was not me - it was the fool on my side of the road passing into a blind corner - if I had been driving a car (at totally legal speeds or less) the 'gap' I shot through would not have been wide enough.

Shit happens like this.

[nzspokes]

Yes irrespective of what speed/line you are going around a blind bend there is always a possibilty of coming to grief as a result of someone elses screwup. A friend of mine had a good safety tip and that was where possible always follow a car around bends so if shit happens they wear it and not you. I don't know if riding schools recomend that but the 2 teachers on here may like to comment on that idea.

You have to be able to stop in the area you see to be clear.

That fucks your idea.

[trufflebutter]

Yes irrespective of what speed/line you are going around a blind bend there is always a possibilty of coming to grief as a result of someone elses screwup. A friend of mine had a good safety tip and that was where possible always follow a car around bends so if shit happens they wear it and not you. I don't know if riding schools recomend that but the 2 teachers on here may like to comment on that idea.

I suspect it is a given, that in any situation when riding, always have an 'out option'. Relying on a car in front probably does not fall into that category.

I say probably because, although there can be times when a car's reaction/s can be an indicator that something is amiss, it could also mean they are talking on the phone or texting.

[Hads]

Holy good fuck yourself if you ride along stopping in the middle of the road to give way to traffic that are about to pull out do you not risk being being rear ended by anyone who may be following? I would say in such a situation the chances of being rear ended by giving way would be greater than being hit by the car not giving way as most would would rather than not give way to you.

In this case I agree with the experienced riders who said there was nothing you could do. So I am not alone among experienced motorcyclists then in thinking the way I do. If you dont think you can be rear ended by following traffic go back to the post from the other poster who said it does happen and he said the way I stopped at lights put me at risk of being rear ended. I actually thought of him on Saturday when I was actually the first at the lights and I guess in such a situation he would pull off to the side of the road before the intersection untill enough traffic has pulled up in order for him to squeeze along side.

Any motorcyclist/car driver that says there is not an element of luck out there on the road is just a fool in my opinion. Generally speaking the faster you go the less luck you have and statistics prove this.


I prefer to tip luck in my favour a bit so I don't need to completely rely on it for example, I always check my mirrors semi regularly and know what is behind me. I also read the road ahead and begin to slow down if I see a potential hazard, and then adjust my road position accordingly.

Good example was yesterday, driving back from Akaroa coming up to the Motukarara turn off, driver in front puts left indicator on and begins to slow down, I notice a ute waiting to turn right and note that I see no oncoming traffic. Now I have two choices, continue at my pace and go to the right of the car that is beginning to pull over assume the ute has seen me, or, cover the brakes and slow down with the vehicle until I know for certain the driver of the ute has seen me. I chose the latter thankfully because the driver of the ute hadn't seen me and pulls out in front of me, this resulted in me having to do some light braking to avoid a collision.

I assume that most people ride as I do, but this is an example of lowering risk greatly, the only times I have nearly been caught out is when drivers do something completely unexpected, e.g. car driving towards me on open road puts left indicator on and then proceeds to do right hand turn requiring me to slam brakes on to avoid a crash. This happened twice, same driver consecutive days, I don't know where he learned to drive but probably wasn't from this planet.

[trufflebutter]

But I would rather rely on a car that was in front of me txting rather than behind txting. The only danger with that is if you follow them to closely if they leave the road while txting you may too. So by keeping a reasonable following distance you can still remain safe.

But you cannot follow a car through a bend (which is what responded to) if it is behind you.

''The only danger with that is if you follow them to closely if they leave the road while txting you may too''
Which is why I said ''Relying on a car in front probably does not fall into that category''

Please try and keep up and cease trying to confuse yourself with varying your argument.

[swbarnett]

e.g. car driving towards me on open road puts left indicator on and then proceeds to do right hand turn requiring me to slam brakes on to avoid a crash. This happened twice, same driver consecutive days, I don't know where he learned to drive but probably wasn't from this planet.
You should've had a word, at least after the second time. I've done this in the past to find that the car's indicators were wired wrong. The driver thought they were indicating correctly and was extremely grateful to have this pointed out.

[onearmedbandit]

Holy good fuck yourself if you ride along stopping in the middle of the road to give way to traffic that are about to pull out do you not risk being being rear ended by anyone who may be following? I would say in such a situation the chances of being rear ended by giving way would be greater than being hit by the car not giving way as most would give way rather than not give way to you in the situation you describe.

In this case I agree with the experienced riders who said there was nothing you could do. So I am not alone among experienced motorcyclists then in thinking the way I do. If you dont think you can be rear ended by following traffic go back to the post from the other poster who said it does happen and he said the way I stopped at lights put me at risk of being rear ended. I actually thought of him on Saturday when I was actually the first at the lights and I guess in such a situation he would pull off to the side of the road before the intersection untill enough traffic has pulled up in order for him to squeeze along side.

Any motorcyclist/car driver that says there is not an element of luck out there on the road is just a fool in my opinion. Generally speaking the faster you go the less luck you have and statistics prove this.


Idiot. Stop putting words in people's mouths or twisting things to suit your agenda. Point out where I said stopping in traffic because of a car pulling out. Go on, I fucking challenge you. Taking evasive action was all that required in that situation, but even though you haven't seen the video in question you think you know better. All the rider in the clip needed to do was slow and move to the right as they were too close to the left of the lane in the first instance.

As for agreeing with the experienced riders, when I pointed out my observation they admitted they hadn't seen that and if they had then that situation wouldn't have occurred. So you are agreeing with no one but ignorance.

Of course there is an element of luck in almost all aspects of life, but we can make our own 'luck' by being aware. Point in case, I feel quite lucky because it's not only me that is aware that you're the local fucking village idiot.

[madbikeboy]

No throttle body restriction as diesel is direct injection. Separate vacuum pump does the trick.

And, we have a winner.

[madbikeboy]

I never said the car was behind me but just gave a general example that txting drivers are better off in front than behind at all times. Get it now?

And we have the corresponding loser.

[nzspokes]

Lets say you do that and the oncoming vehicle doesnt. That fucks your idea.

You mean the car you have already seen and allowed for using observation?

[awayatc]

A friend of mine .

now i have heard it all.........


you comedian, you......:laugh:

[trufflebutter]

I never said the car was behind me but just gave a general example that txting drivers are better off in front than behind at all times. Get it now?

Your words...
''But I would rather rely on a car that was in front of me txting rather than behind txting''

The word I really is a give away that you are expressing a person viewpoint. And ''a car that was in front of me'' clearly puts you behind it.
You continue to confuse yourself with varying your argument.

Because I can read and understand shit, I totally get what you are saying, but I suspect you do not?

[onearmedbandit]

Idiot yourself if you see a car about to pull out that you think "may" not give way to you how do you stop them from hitting you, by carrying on?

Observation my dear boy. You identify the car as a possible hazard and keep an eye on it to see if it starts to move. If it does you react accordingly. There are many identifiers you can look out for, without taking complete concentration away from being aware of what else is happening. Seriously this isn't that difficult.

[madbikeboy]

Your words...
''But I would rather rely on a car that was in front of me txting rather than behind txting''

The word I really is a give away that you are expressing a person viewpoint. And ''a car that was in front of me'' clearly puts you behind it.
You continue to confuse yourself with varying your argument.

Because I can read and understand shit, I totally get what you are saying, but I suspect you do not?

Separated at birth. Kellyanne Conway and Cassina. When I take over, them fuckers going up against the wall.

[madbikeboy]

Observation my dear boy. You identify the car as a possible hazard and keep an eye on it to see if it starts to move. If it does you react accordingly. There are many identifiers you can look out for, without taking complete concentration away from being aware of what else is happening. Seriously this isn't that difficult.

Situation awareness and intelligence are innate. You either have them. Or not. Thank fuck for Darwin's Law.

[onearmedbandit]

You are lucky to have always had time or swerve/brake. I had time to swerve once and got lucky and another time it happened so quick to not even have time to brake or swerve. When others screw up they dont do it at a constant speed and I have just given you 2 examples. Ignore my advise at your peril dear boy.

What advice? Rely on luck? Definitely.

[onearmedbandit]

Situation awareness and intelligence are innate. You either have them. Or not. Thank fuck for Darwin's Law.

I have the distinct feeling, no lets call it hope, that we're all being trolled.

[swbarnett]

Situation awareness and intelligence are innate. You either have them. Or not. Thank fuck for Darwin's Law.
Yes and no. Yes, you can have a genetic pre-disposition towards observation and/or IQ, but that does not mean those innate pre-dispositions will manifest themselves into real-world skills or a high IQ. Even natural concert pianists must practice till they're blue in the face to get as good as they do.

[caspernz]

Situation awareness and intelligence are innate. You either have them. Or not. Thank fuck for Darwin's Law.

There is a connection between the two, I reckon you need a modicum of intelligence to be able to learn situational awareness. In the unmentionable ones instance it might be the closed mind that's the problem...:bash::innocent::shutup:


I have the distinct feeling, no lets call it hope, that we're all being trolled.

Fingers crossed it's just one epic trolling effort...but what if it isn't? :shit::facepalm::blink:

[trufflebutter]

Since you are quite possibly confused, to elaberate in general a car whoes driver is txting is far less likely to hit you being in front than behind you. I was not meaning it in the context they would be able to stay on the road in front of me.

It is unreasonable for me to continue to reason with an unreasonable illiterate in an attempt to see reason, so I am out. All the best with your continuation to see yourself correct at all costs, seems there are enough argumentative minds to help you with that.


Separated at birth. Kellyanne Conway and Cassina. When I take over, them fuckers going up against the wall.

One at a time and very slowly......please.

[Bass]

I have the distinct feeling, no lets call it hope, that we're all being trolled.

Personally, I don't doubt it and from the fervour of the reactions, rather well too.

[onearmedbandit]

Personally, I don't doubt it and from the fervour of the reactions, rather well too.

If it is then I'd have no shame in having fallen from it, it's truly epic.

[madbikeboy]

I have the distinct feeling, no lets call it hope, that we're all being trolled.

Stupidity this spectacular has to be genuine. No troll would spend this much time with the act.

[madbikeboy]

It is unreasonable for me to continue to reason with an unreasonable illiterate in an attempt to see reason, so I am out. All the best with your continuation to see yourself correct at all costs, seems there are enough argumentative minds to help you with that.



One at a time and very slowly......please.

That sounded like my last date night... Seriously, for either of them, I'd happily make the experience last days.

[caspernz]

Stupidity this spectacular has to be genuine. No troll would spend this much time with the act.

There is a theory that the mental health system reform would have repercussions for the general population. I present to you exhibit C.

[caseye]

Personally, I don't doubt it and from the fervour of the reactions, rather well too.


EWE! can fuck OFF, Yer Wrong I tell you. WRONG, ok,maybe a bit right, see you on Thursday ya barsteward.

[Zedder]

There is a theory that the mental health system reform would have repercussions for the general population. I present to you exhibit C.


Maybe that's it. Who let the Trolls out who, who, who, who? Nothing else seems to work on shutting it up which does make poking fun at it that much more enjoyable.

On a more positive subject, the Paparoa-Oakleigh Road was excellent today. Resealing has settled in and 2 road marking trucks appeared to be putting the finishing touches to the Paparoa end. I highly recommend it.

[caspernz]

Maybe that's it. Who let the Trolls out who, who, who, who? Nothing else seems to work on shutting it up which does make poking fun at it that much more enjoyable.

On a more positive subject, the Paparoa-Oakleigh Road was excellent today. Resealing has settled in and 2 road marking trucks appeared to be putting the finishing touches to the Paparoa end. I highly recommend it.

Well on a positive note, the one whose name shall not be mentioned is like the gift that keeps on giving, the potti that just won't flush...:facepalm:

Paparoa-Oakleigh Rd looks suitable for avoiding unwanted attention. We have many such roads closer to home, so I do my wildlife avoiding exercises in and around the Waikato swamp areas. Must put Paparoa-Oakleigh Rd on the list for future northward bound adventures though, thanks for the heads-up :niceone:

[madbikeboy]

Well on a positive note, the one whose name shall not be mentioned is like the gift that keeps on giving, the potti that just won't flush...:facepalm:

Paparoa-Oakleigh Rd looks suitable for avoiding unwanted attention. We have many such roads closer to home, so I do my wildlife avoiding exercises in and around the Waikato swamp areas. Must put Paparoa-Oakleigh Rd on the list for future northward bound adventures though, thanks for the heads-up :niceone:

On a positive note, my scooter is nicely cleaned after a day of enthusiastically riding barely used roads in the sunshine. A brief chat with plod went well for me. I got to see yoga pants. On yummy mummies.

[Zedder]

Well on a positive note, the one whose name shall not be mentioned is like the gift that keeps on giving, the potti that just won't flush...:facepalm:

Paparoa-Oakleigh Rd looks suitable for avoiding unwanted attention. We have many such roads closer to home, so I do my wildlife avoiding exercises in and around the Waikato swamp areas. Must put Paparoa-Oakleigh Rd on the list for future northward bound adventures though, thanks for the heads-up :niceone:

So it could be said that "Its potti runneth over"?

Haha, wildlife avoiding exercises indeed. It's also good to combine Waipu via Cove road like I did today if you're thinking northward bound.

[madbikeboy]

Well on a positive note, the one whose name shall not be mentioned is like the gift that keeps on giving, the potti that just won't flush...:facepalm:



Apparently I have to spread it around before I can give you some. This sounds like my dating life.

[Laava]

On a more positive subject, the Paparoa-Oakleigh Road was excellent today. Resealing has settled in and 2 road marking trucks appeared to be putting the finishing touches to the Paparoa end. I highly recommend it.

Tomorrow, very tomorrow!

[caspernz]

So it could be said that "Its potti runneth over"?

Haha, wildlife avoiding exercises indeed. It's also good to combine Waipu via Cove road like I did today if you're thinking northward bound.

Well it's nice to have some local input when one is planning a relaxed outing with one or two suitably skilled two wheeled lads. The objective is actually the Cape, but via a somewhat indirect route, IYKWIM.


Apparently I have to spread it around before I can give you some. This sounds like my dating life.

Haha, at least we're getting around though aye? Yeah had the same problem... And nothing to do with yoghurt pants either, it's that yellow bike that attracts quality attention :drool:

[Zedder]

Tomorrow, very tomorrow!


Good on ya man. Four cars, two road marking trucks and that was it for traffic today, brilliant!

[Zedder]

Well it's nice to have some local input when one is planning a relaxed outing with one or two suitably skilled two wheeled lads. The objective is actually the Cape, but via a somewhat indirect route, IYKWIM.


That's a good outing alright. The indirect route is best undertaken on a motorcycle.

[madbikeboy]

it's that yellow bike that attracts quality attention :drool:

BIG BIRD!


https://youtu.be/EVAPmOTrXys

[caspernz]

BIG BIRD!

Hahaha, now we're talking...but it be the wrong episode!

[nzspokes]

All this does make me wonder if the KB mentor system should be revisited.

That way the newbs would know who to trust.

[madbikeboy]

All this does make me wonder if the KB mentor system should be revisited.

That way the newbs would know who to trust.

Seconded.


1234567890.

[caspernz]

All this does make me wonder if the KB mentor system should be revisited.

That way the newbs would know who to trust.

Now that sounds awfully grownup and serious...makes me wonder how many of us would qualify :cool:

[Laava]

Now that sounds awfully grownup and serious...makes me wonder how many of us would qualify :cool:

Probably only Cassina and axehole. Lets face it, between them they know everything!

[Viking01]

All this does make me wonder if the KB mentor system should be revisited.

That way the newbs would know who to trust.

NZSpokes,
Don't worry. I think that is already being covered off to some extent.

When I logged in again a few minutes ago, I just happened to notice that you-know-who is already
offering some hot tips via the Sticky Note ("Sitting Your Restricted Licence") within the Biker Politics
and Law thread.

I've already seen some hot tips both on head checks during a Road Test and on choice of riding boots.

Keeping you informed.

Cheers.

P.S. And if that is still not enough for you, I see that it is now "feeding time" over on the "1st to 2nd
Conundrums" thread as well. Spoilt for choice.

[george formby]

NZSpokes,
Don't worry. I think that is already being covered off to some extent.

When I logged in again a few minutes ago, I just happened to notice that you-know-who is already
offering some hot tips via the Sticky Note ("Sitting Your Restricted Licence") within the Biker Politics
and Law thread.

I've already seen some hot tips both on head checks during a Road Test and on choice of riding boots.

Keeping you informed.

Cheers.

P.S. And if that is still not enough for you, I see that it is now "feeding time" over on the "1st to 2nd
Conundrums" thread as well. Spoilt for choice.

You don't have a TV either?

[AllanB]

End of the day any member can comment regardless of 'correctness' - yeah there is a risk someone may actually act on a recommendation but generally I find that a dangerous or incorrect recommendation is quickly corrected by the masses.

Makes for entertaining reading some nights.

[Viking01]

You don't have a TV either?

George,
Hi. You don't need a TV with entertainment like this. It's straight to the PC.
Should have a Health and Safety warning, though.

Apart from doing some gardening (and filing financial papers for the accountant
to do the tax returns), I seem to have spent much of the rest of the day on the
PC for one reason or another. Sad, really.

And of course, while you're logged in, you just can't help yourself having the
occasional peak to see what new hot tips were being proffered .... Keep telling
myself "Don't click the 'What's New' button".... You don't want to know .... 8-)

But the rest of the week will be busy, so normality (and some degree of sanity)
should have returned by the end.

Cheers.

[nzspokes]

Now that sounds awfully grownup and serious...makes me wonder how many of us would qualify :cool:

I would have thought some kind of qualification or something along the lines of.

[caspernz]

I would have thought some kind of qualification or something along the lines of.

Damn, I hope that doesn't involve a riding school of sorts, as I've heard we don't learn anything there...:confused:

[Zedder]

Damn, I hope that doesn't involve a riding school of sorts, as I've heard we don't learn anything there...:confused:

That's really strange that someone would say that because some insurance companies give discounts etc to customers who complete Ride Forever courses. Why would they do that if riders "don't learn anything"?

[russd7]

That's really strange that someone would say that because some insurance companies give discounts etc to customers who complete Ride Forever courses. Why would they do that if riders "don't learn anything"?

this site seriously needs a sarcasm button. :brick:

[eldog]

That's really strange that someone would say that because some insurance companies give discounts etc to customers who complete Ride Forever courses. Why would they do that if riders "don't learn anything"?

maybe insurance companies fund these courses?

not every one is able to complete a course. even on here......:innocent::corn:

[RDJ]

this site seriously needs a sarcasm button. :brick:

Very. Much. So.

[granstar]

Just use yer keyboard ...


http://www.fishingbuddy.com/sites/default/files/photos/UserFiles/14/148/14827/button2(1).jpg

[caspernz]

maybe insurance companies fund these courses?

not every one is able to complete a course. even on here......:innocent::corn:

You mean not everyone WANTS to complete one of these courses, for they already know in advance they won't learn anything....

[eldog]

You mean not everyone WANTS to complete one of these courses, for they already know in advance they won't learn anything....

Maybe its toooo expensive :msn-wink:, or they are scared they 'just might' learn something.

Hell, if they did a course and they didn't learn anything, then they did learn something - they are doing it right.
That's why some courses are graduated to suit different skill sets/requirements.

Its obvious if you going to be a commuter you don't need to do a track day. But some courses would suit people to run them on a track, not to race but to learn lines, cornering techniques without the usual street furniture and other idiots.

I don't believe that every accident is avoidable, but there are many signs that may help us to recognize the possibility of one happening. Finding out about these signs is easiest done on places like the web, KB, magazines, skill courses, riding more often, riding and talking with others. Its these small things that may help someone else avoid a possible pitfall.

eg Like newbies parking next to a curb/drain, it can be a long way down before your foot touches the ground, if you miss the curb. Sure if you have been riding forever (pun intended) you think nothing of it but when your in an unfamiliar place, you remember what to avoid/look out for.

I have half read the full cash study - there are already a few things I think they could improve on(relative to NZ). Once I have read the second half, I will see then what I think. So far reasonably good effort.

[george formby]

I'm trying to do something more constructive but can't resist chasing the ambulance.

You struck a chord with me eldog, c flat. After many happy years riding big miles in any and all conditions I ended up riding with a novice. Some of the skills required for her test were an exercise in sphincter tension, u turns, 360's, controlled braking.... I'd never thought about it before. Never thought that such control and technique were within my ability on a bike with it's own gravity. Blissfully riding along in ignorance..

I'm happy to say we found a great mentor and friend through KB and can now, enjoyably, handle our bikes far better.

All those miles did teach me a lot of road craft and hazard awareness but I was quite stunned at the observation and awareness of our instructor on the pro rider gold course. Things like tire marks crossing the centre line on a corner indicating how many cars run wide, bent reflector posts coming into a corner.. Quite a few more. His knowledge of the landscape was exceptional.

It really brought home to me that riding is a never ending learning (and leaning) curve if your so inclined to improve.

[Zedder]

maybe insurance companies fund these courses?


As far as I know, ACC fund them in the first instance. However, if insurance companies give customer discounts etc then it's an indirect funding.

[Zedder]

You mean not everyone WANTS to complete one of these courses, for they already know in advance they won't learn anything....


Yes, those with closed minds.

[eldog]

Those who are CLOSED

[caspernz]

As far as I know, ACC fund them in the first instance. However, if insurance companies give customer discounts etc then it's an indirect funding.

Yep, ACC heavily subsidise the Rideforever series. Plus most insurance companies will discount premium and/or reduce excess. Bonus is reduced chance of "enjoying" hospital food via improved skills.

[Zedder]

Those who are CLOSED


That's more about not letting people know you or get close to you, rather than not being open to new ideas etc.

[Zedder]

Yep, ACC heavily subsidise the Rideforever series. Plus most insurance companies will discount premium and/or reduce excess. Bonus is reduced chance of "enjoying" hospital food via improved skills.


Pretty damn good deal then.

[eldog]

That's more about not letting people know you or get close to you, rather than not being open to new ideas etc.

You are correct. I hadn't finished but got caught up with something else here at work. :no:
:Offtopic:
I have to deal with an Autistic child and often I wonder if their minds are like closed off.
Any new information is like a blinding light, they have to process stuff and seem to deposit it into cabinets (in their mind)
Going to any new place, especially one that has a lot of new/unfamiliar stuff can set them off-OMG.

I have been approaching this one very slowly, and give only limited information so as not to overload the subject.

Can be strange the way they watch you but not look at you, and how they sneak a look once they are familiar (well sort off) and feel more comfortable.
Everything has a place and if order is OK then things go smoothly.... The web has helped, but policing what sites and when can be difficult. Doesn't understand "NO"

[Berries]

Yes, those with closed minds.
Perhaps.

I think it was 1990 when I got my KMX 125, progressing to 'proper' bikes via a GPZ500. Got away with it while young, dumb and the rest of it. Have ridden ever since, all year, all weathers. Through work I had to do a defensive driving course once but apart from that I have had no formal training and nothing bike specific. Will I do any training? Unless it resulted in a reduction in the ACC levy I doubt it.

I have a pretty good understanding of what causes crashes and have picked up what not to do over the years. I do some of them sometimes, hell, that is the thrill of riding a bike to me. I don't expect to crash because I know crashing hurts and I for one don't want to be in a wheelchair or leave my kids with no father. I say I don't expect to crash but the winters down here are such that on some days I might make the wrong choice and ride when there is a bit too much ice around but buses suck arse, especially when you are sitting there and see someone on a bike. I will try my best but there is always a possibility I will drop it one winter. That would appear to me to be my greatest risk.

I don't profess to know everything but perhaps I do have a closed mind as I cannot see what I could learn from someone else that would make me a safer rider. I am fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong so ride accordingly. 95% of the time anyway. It's that 5% that will catch you out and no amount of training will help there. But that 5% is why I have a GSXR rather than a GN.

[Zedder]

Perhaps.

I think it was 1990 when I got my KMX 125, progressing to 'proper' bikes via a GPZ500. Got away with it while young, dumb and the rest of it. Have ridden ever since, all year, all weathers. Through work I had to do a defensive driving course once but apart from that I have had no formal training and nothing bike specific. Will I do any training? Unless it resulted in a reduction in the ACC levy I doubt it.

I have a pretty good understanding of what causes crashes and have picked up what not to do over the years. I do some of them sometimes, hell, that is the thrill of riding a bike to me. I don't expect to crash because I know crashing hurts and I for one don't want to be in a wheelchair or leave my kids with no father. I say I don't expect to crash but the winters down here are such that on some days I might make the wrong choice and ride when there is a bit too much ice around but buses suck arse, especially when you are sitting there and see someone on a bike. I will try my best but there is always a possibility I will drop it one winter. That would appear to me to be my greatest risk.

I don't profess to know everything but perhaps I do have a closed mind as I cannot see what I could learn from someone else that would make me a safer rider. I am fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong so ride accordingly. 95% of the time anyway. It's that 5% that will catch you out and no amount of training will help there. But that 5% is why I have a GSXR rather than a GN.

Fair enough. Have you read any motorcycle training books?

[Berries]

No, have never seen one in the flesh as they say. I am willing to be enlightened but following distance, speed, road position and being ready for anything seems to cover most bases.


And before cassina uses my post above to say I agree with her about training I should point out that I see great value in training when you start riding, when you step up to your first non L plate bike and when you are coming back to riding after a lot of years off. Even a change in bike style might be worth some tutorage. I rode a Harley once and am just glad it ran out of petrol after 40km before I got to the curvy bits as that sack of shit was going to be heading towards a fence in the Manuka Gorge.

[Bass]

I don't profess to know everything but perhaps I do have a closed mind as I cannot see what I could learn from someone else that would make me a safer rider. I am fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong so ride accordingly. 95% of the time anyway. It's that 5% that will catch you out and no amount of training will help there. But that 5% is why I have a GSXR rather than a GN.

The thing is that you have just admitted that you don't know what you don't know.
I started back into this motorcycling thing, slowly and cautiously. I actually worked out a lot of this stuff for myself (like you), but went and did the Riderskills (one on one) advanced course anyway.
The truth is that I didn't learn as much as I expected or on the topics I expected. However, what I did learn were absolute diamonds and some of the exercises I still do regularly- e.g. self training ideas that I would never have dreamed up on my own.

IMHO your comment about being ready for anything does pretty much cover it. However, it's the various different ways in which you can make yourself ready that I hadn't really thought about or understood what "ready" really means.

Lastly, I discovered that there are riding skills and there are road craft skills - the two are only loosely connected. However, riding skills may become really important if you screw up on your road craft skills.

[pritch]

And before cassina uses my post above to say I agree with her about training I should point out that I see great value in training when you start riding, when you step up to your first non L plate bike and when you are coming back to riding after a lot of years off. Even a change in bike style might be worth some tutorage. I rode a Harley once and am just glad it ran out of petrol after 40km before I got to the curvy bits as that sack of shit was going to be heading towards a fence in the Manuka Gorge.

On the other hand I feel that should an emergency arise it's probably better trying to recall something reasonably recent than to be dredging back through the cobwebs of long unused memory banks. And if you've been riding more than a few years there will be cobwebs.

When the first Ride Forever course came to town I paid to go. The local Honda dealer said, "It's not for you."
I told him that I was supporting it because it was new and revision doesn't hurt, besides I might learn something.

A lot of effort had been put into the course, the Honda dealer made all his staff available to help. The guy that was running it though was "My way or the highway" and accepted no advice from anyone. I don't know who they get to help now, but I know who they don't.

After all the theory and some riding around a Kart track it was out to the open road - and a couple of people fell off for no explicable reason. This despite a very slow pace way below the speed limit.

There was a bag of sponsors goodies given out at the end and there was a prize worth significant money.

I won't go to another and I hope for the sake of the programme that they have a different organiser.

[Zedder]

No, have never seen one in the flesh as they say. I am willing to be enlightened but following distance, speed, road position and being ready for anything seems to cover most bases.


And before cassina uses my post above to say I agree with her about training I should point out that I see great value in training when you start riding, when you step up to your first non L plate bike and when you are coming back to riding after a lot of years off. Even a change in bike style might be worth some tutorage. I rode a Harley once and am just glad it ran out of petrol after 40km before I got to the curvy bits as that sack of shit was going to be heading towards a fence in the Manuka Gorge.


"It's a fair cop" as they say...

[caseye]

HEY? you guys hear that?
Couldn't possibly be, dead isn't she?

[nzspokes]

I wish to stress again that I did not go to a riding school when I learnt because they were not around in the mid 70s. If they were not around today many of the supporters of riding schools on here may not have taken up motorcycling in the first place as it would have been too dangerous to attempt on their own.
I got a reply when I said I took a fall on a wet road when learning that if I had gone to a riding school I may not have fallen and to my surprise they said wet road handling/braking is not taught in riding schools today but maybe it was just the school they went to.
I learned in the 80s. So what. Doesn't mean you you know what you are doing.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Moi]

I wish to stress again that I did not go to a riding school when I learnt because they were not around in the mid 70s...

OK, early to mid seventies, lots of bikes and people coming and going with someone following them or guiding them, Stadium Rd, Western Springs...



... perhaps it was the local knitting circle at their weekly gathering :innocent:

[pritch]

I would imagine if I had written your post all the riding school supporters on here would say that it was my refusal to change the way I ride and not the school tutor for the attitude I had.
The guys that fell off for no reason would have due to the target fixation effect of riding in a group where the focus can become either on the leader or the rider in front and nothing else.


I was not referring to the organiser's attitude to instruction I had no particular issue with that.

The Honda dealer had a lot of experience in organising training days around the North Island over many years and told me he had offered what he thought was helpful advice on a number of occasions when the event was being planned and set up. None his suggestions were deemed worthy of consideration.

It happened that I was in the first group to the kart track where this genius organiser spent an inordinate amount of time telling us how qualified he was to run the course. I was thinking this is taking up a lot of time but I guess he knows what he's doing. When he finished he announced that the programme was now running late so the emergency braking session was cancelled. WANKER!

As usual your logic is astray. It may be that the second rider fell off because he or she followed another rider off the road, I don't know, but that can't explain the first one. Also riders should know not to fixate of the bike in front, you have to look around or past it. That's fairly basic. Having said that there were some inexperienced riders on the course. Hopefully they learned something.

[nzspokes]

It is quite likely many of the posters maybe you included are not from NZ and us NZers are known as DIYers/do it yourselfers. If there were no riding schools around when you learnt you would not know what you are doing either.
Assumption much? Yes im a Kiwi. No I didn't know what I was doing. Made it up as I went along.

When I returned to riding I made sure I trained as much as I could. I am a much better and safer rider for it.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[pritch]

It could be said that maybe the dealer was more interested in promoting bike sales than offering riding lessons and that could have been why he did not allow enough time. Your first post I felt did give the impression your lesson was from a qualified riding instructor and not a shop owner. Having said that the owner of the shop that I bought my first bikes off offered a lesson to first time riders in the interest of selling bikes and I had one of his lessons. It was just in a side street near the shop and not out of first gear if I can remember as I had no license at that time. He ran the biggest selling shop in ChCh at the time so his free lessons were a winning sales idea that strangly enough no other dealer took up. Maybe due to the fact there was a risk with it if the unlicensed rider dropped the bike. I guess OSH would never allow motorbike shops to offer such lessons today. So I have in fact had a riding lesson after all. I have never mentioned that in the past as it was not from a school.

I don't know how you got to there. You have misread what I wrote. Surprise!

The prick running the course was not a dealer to my knowledge. I would doubt that he was a "qualified instructor" in the current sense of that phrase. Which might be why he went on and on and on about how qualified he was to run the course.

From memory the course was the first Ride For Life course to come to this area and he was from out of town. The local Honda dealer had offered to assist and had made all his staff available, he had offered suggestions but all had been ignored. He was not happy, his assistance to future courses would have been much curtailed.

What help they get now, or even if the courses are held I couldn't say. Neither of the other dealers in town have ever been much into promoting motorcycling, the Honda dealer has long been the most proactive but he has moved on. One of the others is currently having their closing down sale.

[onearmedbandit]

You did give me the impression that the dealer and the instructor were the same people as you described the person giving the lesson and the dealer as being the organiser. Thats how I got there.


the Honda dealer made all his staff available to help. The guy that was running it though was

See I think this is where a lot of the issues people here have with you are. It's like you either don't read what is written or just modify it in your head to suit what you want.

[caseye]

See I think this is where a lot of the issues people here have with you are. It's like you either don't read what is written or just modify it in your head to suit what you want.

Both!

You are wasting your time.
Nothing good will ever come of her.

[onearmedbandit]

Both!

You are wasting your time.
Nothing good will ever come of her.

That's my failing, I always look for the good in people.

[Zedder]

That's my failing, I always look for the good in people.


Credit to you, but the only good in this one would be in goodbye.

[onearmedbandit]

I am suprised you would waste your time making a coment on something that really is a "non issue" in the big scheme of things.

It was an example of one of the many times you have either assumed incorrectly or just plain misunderstood something. Hardly a non-issue considering so many threads that you participate in turn to shit because of this.

[Swoop]

If everything I post is shit why do you waste your time responding?

To alert people (possibly newer folks to riding or to KB) that you are full of shit and an utter retarded cunt.

[pritch]

I am suprised you would waste your time making a coment on something that really is a "non issue" in the big scheme of things.

It wasn't a "non-issue" OAB went to the heart of the matter - and you've still got it wrong.

I called the guy the "organiser" because he was just one of a number of "instructors" but he was in overall charge of the whole day.

While it's possible some of your confusion could be my fault, I normally don't cause confusion with things I write until the vinho tinto kicks in. There's none of that until tomorrow night though.

Your comprehension skills need work.

[granstar]

To alert people (possibly newer folks to riding or to KB) that you are full of shit and an utter retarded cunt.

Thanks for the heads up :niceone:

[nzspokes]

So riding home today was a bit of a clusterfuck of bad drivers. One tried to pull in my lane, one just turned in front of me.

But what I have learned recently turns this into something I look for, part of observation. Another part of what we learn is observational links. I was riding past a soccer field, lots of kids playing in the field that was on my right and cars parked both sides of the road. I also noted some young kids running down the footpath on the righthand side. I decided to sit in the middle of the lane to split my risk in case a car moved or a kid ran out.

And a little fella raced across followed by a very upset Mum. Feck me it gives you a shock when it happens for real. Because I had planned for possible issue it was easy to stop. Thankfully no car was coming the other way. Car behind me had a panic stop. Mum scooped up the young fella, I would say he got a big tell off.

Would I have been able to stop without what I have learned, I guess probably. But it makes it far more controlled.

[husaberg]

http://buttonmuseum.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumbnail/public/CH-bozo_the_clown_button_busy_beaver_button_museum.pn g?itok=XmjDvWKm

[caspernz]

To alert people (possibly newer folks to riding or to KB) that you are full of shit and an utter retarded cunt.

That's the only reason why I have bursts of activity in that area, to save the newer KB members/riders :eek::mad: from following stupid advice.

Maybe we should have a poll on the one we no longer mention? Or maybe not, for it's got a predictable outcome...:bleh::rolleyes:

[Zedder]

That's the only reason why I have bursts of activity in that area, to save the newer KB members/riders :eek::mad: from following stupid advice.

Maybe we should have a poll on the one we no longer mention? Or maybe not, for it's got a predictable outcome...:bleh::rolleyes:


"You must spread etc."

[russd7]

Thanks for the heads up :niceone:

oooiiii back in ya cage, ya may just come up to me knee but there aint niffin new bout you, :laugh:

you drinkin on sat nite. have a feelin there may be a compulsory or two or three or four

[nzspokes]

While you believe your riding school training saved you the fact the car behind slamed on the brakes in time plus there was nothing coming the other way when you swerved to avoid the kid just means you got lucky. I got lucky in a similar situation some years back where I saw a tall girl standing in the middle of the road waiting for me to go past and then when I get up to where the girl is, a much shorter girl who I could not see due to the tall girl blocking my view of her decides to run out and she just stopped in the nick of time otherwise I would have hit her. Would going to a riding school have helped me see the little girl sooner no because the tall girl was blocking my view of her.

You read but you dont understand. I realize english is a second language to you but try to keep up.

[flashg]

Explain what I did not understand about your previous post or do you just think because I said you got lucky I did not understand your post?
I read it over and over, and he DIDN'T swerve. I don't see how luck had anything to do with it, he was totally aware of his surroundings, and acted accordingly. You just make shit up it seems. If you were speaking it would be called verbal diarrhea.
Something for you to ponder on.
Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
This might be past your comprehension skills though, but please try.

[AllanB]

And a little fella raced across followed by a very upset Mum.


Was the mum hot?

Details lad, details. :drool:

[Gremlin]

Would I have been able to stop without what I have learned, I guess probably. But it makes it far more controlled.
That to me is the key outcome. Minimising surprises as best possible. Seeing everything play out before it does, planning any required action, and turning a potential major into another minor.

[nzspokes]

Was the mum hot?

Details lad, details. :drool:

No, I didnt feel the need to expand on her looks IYKWIM.

[nzspokes]

If you read his post again he said he was lucky there was no traffic coming the other way and I take it thats the direction he swerved towards to avoid the kid. The other bit of luck he had was with the following car slaming on the brakes just in time.
There was another poster on here who called everyone who replied to my posts yesterday an idiot well that now includes you sport.

You really have trouble with comprehension. I didnt need to swerve because I had a riding plan. I had already worked out what to do.

I will call it mildly Advanced riding as I have not passed my tests yet, something that you clearly dont understand.

[caspernz]

Was the mum hot?

Details lad, details. :drool:


No, I didnt feel the need to expand on her looks IYKWIM.

It's an important aspect :laugh::rolleyes:

After all the one we no longer mention still isn't contributing anything intelligent...:rolleyes::devil2:

[Moi]

Words of one syllable, well mostly one syllable...

He was riding along a road.

A child run out from the right hand side of the road.

He did not swerve.

He pulled up.

The car behind him also stopped.

It was lucky that no vehicle was coming towards them...

otherwise that vehicle may have hit the child.



I think I have just written a new Janet and John reading book...

[nzspokes]

If you did not swerve why did you say it was lucky there was no one coming the other way? Irrespective of whether you swerved or not you would have to agree with me that there was luck in the fact the following car stopped in time to avoid you? If you had been any closer to the kid when they ran out things could have ended up different too in that respect. All I am trying to educate you guys on is that there is a luck component which is decided by the person/kid/animal at fault as well as what you may have been taught in riding school.
Read post 529. Moi is correct.

You are trying to justify an appalling history of crashes and blaming everything but yourself. And you are to scared to go for an assement.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[granstar]

oooiiii back in ya cage, ya may just come up to me knee but there aint niffin new bout you, :laugh:

you drinkin on sat nite. have a feelin there may be a compulsory or two or three or four

Does the Pope shit in the woods....are bears catholic....is the Pope a bear, does the tin man have a sheetmetal cock!??

Of farking course, as i usually do, but purely only on medicinal grounds that I will partake in a mere small drop of beverage if on offer.

[pritch]

If you did not swerve why did you say it was lucky there was no one coming the other way? Irrespective of whether you swerved or not you would have to agree with me that there was luck in the fact the following car stopped in time to avoid you? If you had been any closer to the kid when they ran out things could have ended up different too in that respect. All I am trying to educate you guys on is that there is a luck component which is decided by the person/kid/animal at fault as well as what you may have been taught in riding school.

May I quote Gary Player the golfer again? On being told by a commentator that he had played a lucky shot he said, "The more I practice the luckier I get".

I remember once travelling to a sports event in another city. I knew the venue was on Government land and that the gate was sometimes to be kept locked, so I phoned ahead and got the combination before I left, just in case. The gate was locked, there were competitors arriving at the last minute and some were actually late. Afterward I was asked how I managed to get in, I explained that I had the combination.
"That was lucky."
Luck had nothing to do with it.

It's possible that some people tending perhaps to be a bit dim ascribe their misfortunes to bad luck. Luck does play a part, but application of the seven Ps might have resulted in a different outcome.

[rok-the-boat]

Just saw this come up on my Facebook feed. Makes for some interesting reading. I'm still to look at the complete study but it certainly seems pretty comprehensive.

It's all just common sense.

[nzspokes]

You are in denial about me pointing out there was a luck factor in the car behind you stopping in time. Only last week another poster on here said there is no guarantee cars coming up behind you are going to stop in time. I am not a lone voice after all on the subject of a luck factor.

I now think this is a fake profile of either someone that does not ride or another user. There has been no proof that whoever is in control of this profile rides or even owns a motorcycle.

[pritch]

The other competitors were lucky you had the combination.

No they weren't. As I mentioned in my last post, the gate had to be kept locked. I was early and I let myself in and locked the gate behind me. As did everybody else who knew the combination. The host club coulda/shoulda left somebody at the gate to open it for people but they didn't. This possibility had occurred to me and I made the appropriate arrangement.

You really do need to read things properly, you are forever arguing about things you misunderstood.

[Zedder]

I now think this is a fake profile of either someone that does not ride or another user. There has been no proof that whoever is in control of this profile rides or even owns a motorcycle.


Not surprising. So what's the next step?

[ellipsis]

I now think this is a fake profile of either someone that does not ride or another user. There has been no proof that whoever is in control of this profile rides or even owns a motorcycle.

...maybe...I don't know how someone could be so consistently ignorant and fucked in the head unless they were trying hard to be...

[Zedder]

...maybe...I don't know how someone could be so consistently ignorant and fucked in the head unless they were trying hard to be...


It certainly puts a lot of effort into doing that.

[awayatc]

Don't underestimate people's stupidity potential....

[Swoop]

If you did not swerve why did you say it was lucky there was no one coming the other way?

330462
Also applies to suckmycockman.

[pritch]

In your first post it said the gate had to sometimes be kept locked not had to be kept locked. You really need to read your own posts properly.

That's written clearly enough for normal people. That was one of the times the gate had to be kept locked.

But to make it really simple: my little stories about Player and the gate were to illustrate that people who train and plan rely less on luck. Conversely people who don't train or plan tend to blame their luck.

I can't make it plainer than that, you who don't like training, and don't understand planning, keep going on about luck. Go on a training course you may get lucky.
(No pun intended.):eek5:

[awayatc]

Go on a training course you may get lucky.
(No pun intended.):eek5:


You cruel bastard....

What has that poor instructor done to you....?

And what about the innocent victims that happen to attend that very same course. ....?

After sharing a course with the BIG C , rubbbing your dick with sand paper would be fun.....

[nzspokes]

If I went on a training course and get lucky and pass it would be no guarantee I would get lucky the next day out on the road by myself. You see passing a training course as giving you eternal luck but the reality is you will be at the whim of whoever may screw up and head towards you just as much as me and the speed they travel towards you will never be the same meaning your riding school education may save you with some of the misshaps of others but not all. I said in a previous post I had 2 cars pull out on me, one I was able to swerve around and one not. Now if I had been to riding school you would have put it down to my riding school education that I was able to make a successful swerve or would you say I just got lucky because I did not go to riding school?
Mods can we get this fake profile deleted?

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[nzspokes]

So the truth hurts so much you want my profile deleted? I bet most of my repondants will miss me more than I will miss posting on this site. Even yourself what will you do with your time if I am kicked off the site?
I believe whoever is posting is not a rider and the posts could cause harm to a new rider. There is no proof that this person knows the first thing about riding or even holds a license in New Zealand.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[awayatc]

I bet most of my repondants will miss me more than I will miss posting on this site. Even yourself what will you do with your time if I am kicked off the site?

It will be hard....
But I think we will get over it.

[Zedder]

Mods can we get this fake profile deleted?

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk


So, that's the next step under site protocol?

[nzspokes]

There has been no comment on here that I have caused harm to a new rider and I have been on here likely longer than you. Do you just mean as I believe you dont have to go to a riding school to learn how to ride that, that comment itself is dangerous? There is no proof that you hold a license to ride for that matter either let alone hold a riding school certificate. If you dont like Kiwibiker for its freedom of expression from contributors why not start up your own motorcycle disscussion forum on the net so you dont have to tollerate comment you disagree with?
You can divert as much as you like.

I've ridden with at least 2 of the Mods.

You will only get over it when another poster comes on with similar views to myself maybe.


Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Madness]

You can divert as much as you like.

I've ridden with at least 2 of the Mods.

Do you sometimes intentionally post things that make you come across as a bit of a complete and utter wanker, or does it just happen by accident?

[Zedder]

I've asked you two questions politely nzspokes. How hard is it to reply?

[nzspokes]

I've asked you two questions politely nzspokes. How hard is it to reply?
Sorry I thought they were general questions. I don't know the answer.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Zedder]

Sorry I thought they were general questions. I don't know the answer.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk


General? Nah, but gotcha now.

[pritch]

You see passing a training course as giving you eternal luck

Well, if you actually read that in anything I wrote, good luck. (Irony intended.)

Ah well, I have to leave y'all now, I'm starting on the vinho tinto and I'm only going to read stuff that more or less makes sense. :drinkup:

[StoneY]

LOL KB aint changed at all

Wow 38 pages..... I rode 34 years without an accident, recently did the ride forever Gold course, loved it and learned lots.

Training works. Experience works

Peace :)

[caspernz]

Well, if you actually read that in anything I wrote, good luck. (Irony intended.)

Ah well, I have to leave y'all now, I'm starting on the vinho tinto and I'm only going to read stuff that more or less makes sense. :drinkup:

Well yeah, that's kinda the irony in all of the posts read by the one we no longer mention, selective reading and comprehension. The one eyed focus on luck as being the only factor...

Yes a drink or two sounds like a good idea, so maybe it's time to sign off KB for a week or two :laugh:

[granstar]

If I went on a training course and get lucky and pass it would be no guarantee I would get lucky the next day out on the road by myself. You see passing a training course as giving you eternal luck but the reality is you will be at the whim of whoever may screw up and head towards you just as much as me and the speed they travel towards you will never be the same meaning your riding school education may save you with some of the mishaps of others but not all. I said in a previous post I had 2 cars pull out on me, one I was able to swerve around and one not. Now if I had been to riding school you would have put it down to my riding school education that I was able to make a successful swerve or would you say I just got lucky because I did not go to riding school?

Luck!...good or bad...It's all about reducing the odds and learning to trust no cunt in any vehicle that has four or more wheels ( even some motorcyclists) and knowing when to be a little paranoid and hold back.
Lovely lady down here got bowled when pulling out of a carpark couple years ago, lost a leg. Brave girl got back onto the bike asap (a 1200 Harley), very unfortunate she got bowled again the other day and a bit of a mess, you can blame the other vehicle all you like, but doesn't change the consequence and outcome of the victim and or family. Just be bloody careful out there. Training no matter how good you Think you are can surely do no wrong. Best training I did was defensive Driving after being ordered to by the court after a car prang at 17, never had a bike or car accident in daily riding/driving since by opening my googly eyes for the past 40 years (o.k smart math fuckers i'm almost 57 then) and I drive like a girl...maybe I am, wanna check?.

[Zedder]

Well yeah, that's kinda the irony in all of the posts read by the one we no longer mention, selective reading and comprehension. The one eyed focus on luck as being the only factor...

Yes a drink or two sounds like a good idea, so maybe it's time to sign off KB for a week or two :laugh:


Do single malts come by the 5 litre?

[caspernz]

Do single malts come by the 5 litre?

I'll cope...

[Zedder]

I'll cope...

Haha, you're a real trouper.

Has a taste (or two) of the Glen Grant 10 year and bought a bottle for more indepth research, not bad at all.

[granstar]

Haha, you're a real trouper.

Has a taste (or two) of the Glen Grant 10 year and bought a bottle for more indepth research, not bad at all.

All a matter of taste of course..sometimes GG get it right. Currently in depth researching 'Bank Note" now on my third bottle I have concluded they are very consistent in their product :bleh:

[Zedder]

All a matter of taste of course..sometimes GG get it right. Currently in depth researching 'Bank Note" now on my third bottle I have concluded they are very consistent in their product :bleh:


I'd never had GG before, but at $60 for 700mls thought it might be ok. I'm not a connoisseur by any means but like to give different brands a try.

Didn't even know about the "Bank Note" so that tells ya something as well.

[Akzle]

So the truth hurts so much you want my profile deleted? I bet most of my repondants will miss me more than I will miss posting on this site. Even yourself what will you do with your time if I am kicked off the site?

for science. try leaving and find out.

[madbikeboy]

I second Cassina's profile deletion.

Okay, my two cents worth.

A statement is made. Cassina responds to the statement, first agreeing or disagreeing enough to make you think she has listened, but then she pivots and brings some sort of deluded argument into play (it's luck, she crashes often but it's not her fault, or some variation on target fixation or not keeping up).

This is a strategy used by two types of people. The first example is Kellyanne Conway. She answers the first part of the question by repeating some part of the statement, then she pivots and brings her line of bullshit into the frame. For example, the interviewer will ask if she's lying about the terrorist attack in Bowling Green. She will say something like, "the terrorists are getting away with murder, and the fake news is attacking Donald Trump because he's threatening to show how corrupt the media is". She rejects the validity of the statement by repeating some part of it, then pivots, and makes a new sound bite. This is usually evidenced by soundbites like "alternative facts" for example. This is often used as a coached media response by CEO's under threat (VW's CEO, United Airlines CEO etc).

The second type of person is someone with a personality disorder. It's different from someone who is just plain dumb, because they don't redetermine the meaning of the statement. Often, people with narcissistic personality disorder (for example) will take part of statement, twist it, and then pull the direction back to their main hot topics. It's like a pivot, but the difference is that the narcissist is actually trying to establish their point as the "truth" which then makes them an "expert". The interesting thing in this scenario is that any disagreement to the "truth", even if it's logical and rational, doesn't matter because all the narcissist actually wants is the attention - even people yelling at them is attention.


I don't think Cassina is smart enough to be like the first type. I think that Cassina is the second.

The dilemma I see - and this is being serious for a moment - is that newbies might take her advice seriously. My question is, what does it take for someone to get banned from this site? Two candidates spring to mind immediately. Clearly, Cassina. The second is Axkle - I can't see a situation ever where someone threatening to commit crime against someone else's kids to be anything other than a banning offence. Mods, care to comment?

[Akzle]

I'd never had GG before, but at $60 for 700mls thought it might be ok. I'm not a connoisseur by any means but like to give different brands a try.

Didn't even know about the "Bank Note" so that tells ya something as well.

sailor jerry. similar high price point. even a cork in the bottle like real sailors have. muchos disappointing beverage. but it think y'all in the wrong thread. :drinkup:

[FJRider]

for science. try leaving and find out.

You leave too ... we wont miss you either. And think of all the extra time you'll have ... ;)

[onearmedbandit]

It takes an awful lot to get banned from KB, only a few lucky souls have had the pleasure so far. And I don't recall being involved in any of them.

I have however wondered what would happen if I got high and accidentally edited someones password and forgot what it was.... You know, short term memory loss and all.

[madbikeboy]

You leave too ... we wont miss you either. And think of all the extra time you'll have ... ;)

Seconded. All those in favour?

[madbikeboy]

It takes an awful lot to get banned from KB, only a few lucky souls have had the pleasure so far. And I don't recall being involved in any of them.

I have however wondered what would happen if I got high and accidentally edited someones password and forgot what it was.... You know, short term memory loss and all.

You'd need to blacklist their IP address as well, just in case they started a new profile or worked out how to unlock their account.

[FJRider]

Seconded. All those in favour?

Perhaps we should draw up a list for the Mod's ... :shifty:

Submissions anyone ... ???

[caspernz]

There's a positive angle on all this. It helps us look clever if we have one or two numbskulls kicking around...

[Zedder]

There's a positive angle on all this. It helps us look clever if we have one or two numbskulls kicking around...


I'd settle for having the standard KB disagreements, abuse and general mayhem.

[madbikeboy]

There's a positive angle on all this. It helps us look clever if we have one or two numbskulls kicking around...

That's why all my friends are balding dwarves with beer paunches. I look good. Comparatively.

[russd7]

I'd never had GG before, but at $60 for 700mls thought it might be ok. I'm not a connoisseur by any means but like to give different brands a try.

Didn't even know about the "Bank Note" so that tells ya something as well.

i remember turning up to a house on world whiskey day with a bottle of glen moray, dont remember leaving tho,
im thinkin his wife and mine could very well be very patient women

apparently sometime in may is world charteuse day, hmmmmm

[Berries]

The dilemma I see - and this is being serious for a moment - is that newbies might take her advice seriously.Then they would be fucking idiots. Anyone who takes advice from the internet that has the capacity to shorten their lives and doesn't check it out with someone in the real world is an idiot.

Newbies and young ones should understand the way of the internet and realise you need a big pinch of salt with anything on there. I wouldn't trust an internet based scotch egg recipe without a second opinion, fuck riding a motorbike based on comments some random person offered up.

[madbikeboy]

Then they would be fucking idiots. Anyone who takes advice from the internet that has the capacity to shorten their lives and doesn't check it out with someone in the real world is an idiot.

Newbies and young ones should understand the way of the internet and realise you need a big pinch of salt with anything on there. I wouldn't trust an internet based scotch egg recipe without a second opinion, fuck riding a motorbike based on comments some random person offered up.

Wait? What? Everything on the internet is true. Trump is going to make the world a better place. The trolls are always right. Now, you need to excuse me, I have to give my bank passwords to this very nice Ethiopian prince.

If you were a noob, reading half this shit on this site, you'd have a critical inflection point - in other words, I wonder how many think we're retards and just leave.

[Akzle]

I'd never had GG before, but at $60 for 700mls thought it might be ok. I'm not a connoisseur by any means but like to give different brands a try.

Didn't even know about the "Bank Note" so that tells ya something as well.

sailor jerry. similar high price point. even a cork in the bottle like real sailors have. muchos disappointing beverage. but it think y'all in the wrong thread. :drinkup:

[Akzle]

I second Cassina's profile deletion.

Okay, my two cents worth.

A statement is made. Cassina responds to the statement, first agreeing or disagreeing enough to make you think she has listened, but then she pivots and brings some sort of deluded argument into play (it's luck, she crashes often but it's not her fault, or some variation on target fixation or not keeping up).

This is a strategy used by two types of people. The first example is Kellyanne Conway. She answers the first part of the question by repeating some part of the statement, then she pivots and brings her line of bullshit into the frame. For example, the interviewer will ask if she's lying about the terrorist attack in Bowling Green. She will say something like, "the terrorists are getting away with murder, and the fake news is attacking Donald Trump because he's threatening to show how corrupt the media is". She rejects the validity of the statement by repeating some part of it, then pivots, and makes a new sound bite. This is usually evidenced by soundbites like "alternative facts" for example. This is often used as a coached media response by CEO's under threat (VW's CEO, United Airlines CEO etc).

The second type of person is someone with a personality disorder. It's different from someone who is just plain dumb, because they don't redetermine the meaning of the statement. Often, people with narcissistic personality disorder (for example) will take part of statement, twist it, and then pull the direction back to their main hot topics. It's like a pivot, but the difference is that the narcissist is actually trying to establish their point as the "truth" which then makes them an "expert". The interesting thing in this scenario is that any disagreement to the "truth", even if it's logical and rational, doesn't matter because all the narcissist actually wants is the attention - even people yelling at them is attention.


I don't think Cassina is smart enough to be like the first type. I think that Cassina is the second.

The dilemma I see - and this is being serious for a moment - is that newbies might take her advice seriously. My question is, what does it take for someone to get banned from this site? Two candidates spring to mind immediately. Clearly, Cassina. The second is Axkle - I can't see a situation ever where someone threatening to commit crime against someone else's kids to be anything other than a banning offence. Mods, care to comment?

still upset that i fucked your dad, huh?

[trufflebutter]

I Mods, care to comment?

The Mods nowadays are anemic and are of the same consistency as a piece of under cooked veal. They attempt be all tough 'n shit every few weeks or so, but it is a laughable band of brothers that governs this chat site. Under resourced with about four operating Mods.

[Ocean1]

Under resourced with about four operating Mods.

Almost 50% of active members, then?

[caspernz]

Then they would be fucking idiots. Anyone who takes advice from the internet that has the capacity to shorten their lives and doesn't check it out with someone in the real world is an idiot.

Newbies and young ones should understand the way of the internet and realise you need a big pinch of salt with anything on there. I wouldn't trust an internet based scotch egg recipe without a second opinion, fuck riding a motorbike based on comments some random person offered up.

While I agree with the above sentiment, a bit of protest from other members on KB is warranted. Free speech and all...


Wait? What? Everything on the internet is true. Trump is going to make the world a better place. The trolls are always right. Now, you need to excuse me, I have to give my bank passwords to this very nice Ethiopian prince.

If you were a noob, reading half this shit on this site, you'd have a critical inflection point - in other words, I wonder how many think we're retards and just leave.

Yeah well, not against free speech and all, but when one member is stuck on a single misguided message...I feel it's only fair when some of us take aim at such folly.


Almost 50% of active members, then?

The low numbers come about partly due to the inability to have a constructive conversation, for various reasons, thus many choose to depart and spend their time and energy elsewhere. This obviously includes moderators.

[madbikeboy]

still upset that i fucked your dad, huh?

Ackerman, I keep offering to meet with you to sort out our differences. Red repping me is a kiddie tactic. Man up, put some gloves on and meet me for a few rounds. It won't hurt much.

[madbikeboy]

While I agree with the above sentiment, a bit of protest from other members on KB is warranted. Free speech and all...



Yeah well, not against free speech and all, but when one member is stuck on a single misguided message...I feel it's only fair when some of us take aim at such folly.



The low numbers come about partly due to the inability to have a constructive conversation, for various reasons, thus many choose to depart and spend their time and energy elsewhere. This obviously includes moderators.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And. Exactly.

[madbikeboy]

You have a sick jealous hang up about me sport. I have been posting for years on here and I have yet to read from a newbie that they read my post and crashed as a result of the advise I gave. I DO NOT TELL PEOPLE TO CRASH ON HERE SO FUCK UP WITH YOUR BULLSHILL AND THAT GOES FOR ALL OTHER TURKEYS ON HERE THAT THINKS THE SAME. The mods should be banning the likes of you and your ilk for attacking me.

What is Bullshill? Is that the casino version of truth?

Only a narcissist would thinks that hating you is a hang up. It's all about you princess.

If you don't like getting attacked, why don't you leave? Take the hint. Fuck off. I reckon membership would rise significantly as a result.

Now, I've got to go and thinks about the same stuff. I thinks thinks is being thinks wrong. I thinks. Therefore I ams.

[madbikeboy]

The Mods nowadays are anemic and are of the same consistency as a piece of under cooked veal. They attempt be all tough 'n shit every few weeks or so, but it is a laughable band of brothers that governs this chat site. Under resourced with about four operating Mods.

Reading half the crap on here would necessitate counselling for the PTSD for most mods.

[scumdog]

The low numbers come about partly due to the inability to have a constructive conversation, for various reasons, thus many choose to depart and spend their time and energy elsewhere. This obviously includes moderators.


The attitude of one or two members and what they post on here would make a saint not want to continue here...<_<

[caspernz]

You have a sick jealous hang up about me sport. I have been posting for years on here and I have yet to read from a newbie that they read my post and crashed as a result of the advise I gave. I DO NOT TELL PEOPLE TO CRASH ON HERE SO FUCK UP WITH YOUR BULLSHILL AND THAT GOES FOR ALL OTHER TURKEYS ON HERE THAT THINKS THE SAME. The mods should be banning the likes of you and your ilk for attacking me.

To me he's holding back somewhat. In simple terms, the inability you seem to have to accept that rider training of any kind improves the odds for many riders, this is what irks most sane minded members. To leave things solely to lady luck is just such a blinkered view, and it's this single fact most of us challenge, or at least want to. But yeah, trying to converse with you is an exercise in patience, for it's like trying to talk to a wall. So it's either sarcasm, insults or just leave the table altogether. So seeing as many are choosing the latter, why shouldn't we challenge your flawed participation on this forum. In days gone by we could sort this out with a short fused hand grenade, but apparently this way of commenting now could be seen to constitute bullying, so we're left with just trying to reason with words...:facepalm::innocent:


Reading half the crap on here would necessitate counselling for the PTSD for most mods.

Or at least make them need a kindergarten teacher diploma :shutup:


The attitude of one or two members and what they post on here would make a saint not want to continue here...<_<

Sorry chief, I'm only still here because my halo is on the blink :shit:

[trufflebutter]

Almost 50% of active members, then?

....well possibly. :niceone:

[Akzle]

Ackerman, I keep offering to meet with you to sort out our differences. Red repping me is a kiddie tactic. Man up, put some gloves on and meet me for a few rounds. It won't hurt much.

the irony being that you red repped me first. and possibly most. and now your vagina is all sandy about it?

i'd say you've taken enough knocks and cocks to the head already champ.

[Swoop]

Or at least make them need a kindergarten teacher diploma.

I believed that they were automatically awarded a kindergarten supervisory certificate to be able to do the job here...
;)

[Zedder]

i remember turning up to a house on world whiskey day with a bottle of glen moray, dont remember leaving tho,
im thinkin his wife and mine could very well be very patient women

apparently sometime in may is world charteuse day, hmmmmm


What did you think of the Glen Moray?
Heh, long suffering wives...

According to a Google search, May has world whisky day (20th) and Chartreuse day (16th). That green chartreuse has a 55% alcohol content! There's no world rum day from what I could see.

Just to keep it on topic:Studies show that the risk of being involved in a crash increases as a driver's blood alcohol level increases.

[Zedder]

The attitude of one or two members and what they post on here would make a saint not want to continue here...<_<


Usual story though, the few spoil it for the rest.

[Akzle]

Studies show that the risk of being involved in a crash increases as a driver's blood alcohol level increases.

citation or it didn't happen.

[Zedder]

citation or it didn't happen.


There's a few here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_family

[madbikeboy]

the irony being that you red repped me first. and possibly most. and now your vagina is all sandy about it?

i'd say you've taken enough knocks and cocks to the head already champ.

I'm returning the favour each time you red rep me. Speaking of vagina, when was the last time you saw one of those without paying for it first? Have you got a bike yet? I spent the last few days in the sunshine, riding my bike around Northland. You sat on your ass in your depressing life and watched porn. Jealous much?

Big tough guy, sitting with your hand on the keyboard, your other hand on your dick, and all 11 fingers covered in dirt.

[george formby]

What did you think of the Glen Moray?
Heh, long suffering wives...

According to a Google search, May has world whisky day (20th) and Chartreuse day (16th). That green chartreuse has a 55% alcohol content! There's no world rum day from what I could see.

Just to keep it on topic:Studies show that the risk of being involved in a crash increases as a driver's blood alcohol level increases.


:shit:No, don't do it! You will never fully recover from the hangover.

Eons ago I used to frequent a proper bikers pub called the Percy Arms in Newcastle upon Tyne. Full of hairy, leather clad behemoths, the only bar in town with no security and the best juke box. Ahh, the memories.

Any hoo, I'm wandering. The house cocktail was a pint of Duckhams... It was the same colour as the oil, you may remember the ad with oil running down the tin. The record for intake before leg jelly set in was 7 pints IIRC.

If you must know, here's the recipe.

1/2 pint Stella Artois
1/2 pint Merrydown Cider
Double shot Green Chartreuse
Double shot Tequila
Double shot Absinthe

Stirred not shaken. garnish with dandruff.

Have any contributors visited the scenery since this thread started? No? All good then.

[Zedder]

:shit:No, don't do it! You will never fully recover from the hangover.
If you must know, here's the recipe.

1/2 pint Stella Artois
1/2 pint Merrydown Cider
Double shot Green Chartreuse
Double shot Tequila
Double shot Absinthe

Stirred not shaken. garnish with dandruff.

Have any contributors visited the scenery since this thread started? No? All good then.


Jeebus, I'll pass on that, the dandruff put me off...

[pritch]

Eons ago I used to frequent a proper bikers pub called the Percy Arms in Newcastle upon Tyne. Full of hairy, leather clad behemoths,

And their husbands? :whistle:

[Moi]

Memories... (https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Percy+Arms,+Percy+St,+Newcastle+upon+Tyne+NE1+7RW, +UK/@54.9762335,-1.6158218,3a,90y,309.2h,105.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHuxxWg7wkJ6Qf_EQhyYQAA!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x487e70cbbccbfe81:0x254e77a cfec97ea3!8m2!3d54.9763766!4d-1.6160014)

[Akzle]

i'm returning the favour each time you red rep me. Speaking of vagina, when was the last time you saw one of those without paying for it first? Have you got a bike yet? I spent the last few days in the sunshine, riding my bike around northland. You sat on your ass in your depressing life and watched porn. Jealous much?

Big tough guy, sitting with your hand on the keyboard, your other hand on your dick, and all 11 fingers covered in dirt.

woo-woot! !

[george formby]

Memories... (https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Percy+Arms,+Percy+St,+Newcastle+upon+Tyne+NE1+7RW, +UK/@54.9762335,-1.6158218,3a,90y,309.2h,105.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHuxxWg7wkJ6Qf_EQhyYQAA!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x487e70cbbccbfe81:0x254e77a cfec97ea3!8m2!3d54.9763766!4d-1.6160014)


That is eerie Moi, I thought Te Percy had gone. They have a habit in Newcastle of tearing down the old buildings but keeping the frontage intact to stick on the face of the new one.

I'm pretty sure that a bar called Spangles was next door, where Pritch's fantasies used to get together and talk about chewing rugs over a guiness.

Not a bike in sight, they used to line the street and it was mandatory to check for chicken strips before getting a pint. Unscuffed leathers were mocked, too. So un pc but bloody hilarious times. This was in the heyday of RD 350's. Formation wheelies.. Particularly on Westgate hill, close to The Strawberry and The Budgie, epic but wild bars. Westgate hill was a whole street of bike shops, accessory shops and customisers. The place to be on Saturday mornings.

I miss those days. Immensely.

[Akzle]

. Red repping me is a kiddie tactic. .


I'm returning the favour each time you red rep me.


yah. that's totally the non-kiddie tactic :tugger:

you missed that bit where "you started it"


your such a winner. i wish i had friends like you, we could hang out and punch each other in the head.

[AllanB]

Well this thread went south .........

[caspernz]

Well this thread went south .........

That's such a negative outlook, so let me gingerly walk you back to the positive side of the street....ppssssttt, have you noticed the absence of a certain poster as of late in this thread? You're welcome :banana:

[caseye]

That's such a negative outlook, so let me gingerly walk you back to the positive side of the street....ppssssttt, have you noticed the absence of a certain poster as of late in this thread? You're welcome :banana:

QUIET it'll hear ewe!
Butt so far so good.

[Zedder]

That is eerie Moi, I thought Te Percy had gone. They have a habit in Newcastle of tearing down the old buildings but keeping the frontage intact to stick on the face of the new one.

I'm pretty sure that a bar called Spangles was next door, where Pritch's fantasies used to get together and talk about chewing rugs over a guiness.

Not a bike in sight, they used to line the street and it was mandatory to check for chicken strips before getting a pint. Unscuffed leathers were mocked, too. So un pc but bloody hilarious times. This was in the heyday of RD 350's. Formation wheelies.. Particularly on Westgate hill, close to The Strawberry and The Budgie, epic but wild bars. Westgate hill was a whole street of bike shops, accessory shops and customisers. The place to be on Saturday mornings.

I miss those days. Immensely.


Bleedin' Geordies...

[Zedder]

That's such a negative outlook, so let me gingerly walk you back to the positive side of the street....ppssssttt, have you noticed the absence of a certain poster as of late in this thread? You're welcome :banana:

Lookshury.