Are property investors the scourge of the earth?

[neels]

So Andrew Little is the latest to have a crack at property investors, and while I personally think Labour don't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected, as I fall into the general category it's got me thinking.....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/92562799/Andrew-Little-tackles-housing-monster-pledges-to-close-tax-loophole

Is it really small time property investors who are driving up prices in the housing market?

If not investing in property, what else should people be putting their money into? (Blue chip finance springs to mind...)

Are the tax rebates of reportedly $150m a year that bad?

Given the $1-2k tax rebate per year on the average rental, could the gubbermint own, manage and maintain a house for someone to rent for the same money, or would the taxpayer end up footing the bill for the difference?

The government (and seemingly the current opposition) want more houses built, will removing negative gearing increase or decrease the number of houses being built?

Following on from the above, if the desire is for more houses then why was the tax rebate for depreciation of new rental houses scrapped, given that the accumulated depreciation was taxable when the house was sold?

Express away........

[JimO]

increased coste for LLs will result in higher rents, many people will never own a home even if they were free because they are fuckwits, take the private LLs away and the gubbinment will never cope with housing the masses, that development that i saw announced on the TV last night will be a slum of the future

[FJRider]

Following on from the above, if the desire is for more houses then why was the tax rebate for depreciation of new rental houses scrapped, given that the accumulated depreciation was taxable when the house was sold?

Express away........




From ... https://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/73298/ird-giveth-and-taketh-terry-baucher-reviews-risks-relying-tax-benefits-invest


The maximum possible depreciation of the investment property and its fixtures and fittings was claimed to maximize the available tax deductions.

To me ... this suggests the maximum deprecation was always claimed ... regardless of circumstance. ie: Kiwi's got greedy.

[BMWST?]

if the private "investor" didnt buy and rent out houses who would?The money the government or councils would have invested will come out of the taxes we all pay now?So the private investor may get a benefit from the funds invested in property a similar ammount invested in shares would not.But what or who is the alternative provider of rental properties?

[Oakie]

I've always partly blamed the real estate agents as they push the prices as high as they can to maximise their 2% or 3% commission.

[russd7]

this all amazes me, anyone with money to invest wants to get the best return possible given the amount of risk they are prepared to take, there is nothing greedy about it.

real estate agents push the price up as high as possible for several reasons, the primary one of course is because of commission but they also want return listings or sales as well.

kinda reminds me of the whole debacle over ticket scalping and people screaming blue murder and wanting a law to control it, it really is very simple if people don't want to pay what the scalpers are asking then don't fucken buy them.

ahhh well, while the masses are abusing the property investors they are leaving the poor dairy farmer alone

[HenryDorsetCase]

I've always partly blamed the real estate agents as they push the prices as high as they can to maximise their 2% or 3% commission.

Yeah, but nah. "standard" commission from Harcourts or Ray White is usually $500, plus 3.95% plus GST plus they expect to see vendor contributions to advertising. You wonder how those gurning fuckwits get their mugs on buses and billboards? that is how. It is completely fucking obscene.

when I started (1993) a full fat commission was $500 plus 2.95% plus GST and the agent covered the marketing and shit. Oh, and an expensive house was $300k. Just to give you a sense of the obscenity that is real estate commission

[HenryDorsetCase]

this all amazes me, anyone with money to invest wants to get the best return possible given the amount of risk they are prepared to take, there is nothing greedy about it.

real estate agents push the price up as high as possible for several reasons, the primary one of course is because of commission but they also want return listings or sales as well.

kinda reminds me of the whole debacle over ticket scalping and people screaming blue murder and wanting a law to control it, it really is very simple if people don't want to pay what the scalpers are asking then don't fucken buy them.

ahhh well, while the masses are abusing the property investors they are leaving the poor dairy farmer alone

there are fuck all poor dairy farmers in my experience

[jellywrestler]

three out of the four places i went into today. pie shops and dairies, didn't ring the till, that's one thing that pisses me off, i pay my tax, what about them?

[Moi]

three out of the four places i went into today. pie shops and dairies, didn't ring the till, that's one thing that pisses me off, i pay my tax, what about them?

ask them for a GST receipt next time...

[sidecar bob]

Andrew Little the fucking hypocrite bought an investment property, "just to see how hard it is for home buyers" Yeah, that's the trick, front foot it with your double standards, you may fool a couple of stupid people.

[Ocean1]

I see they're insisting on calling it a "loophole".

As opposed to the more correct but entirely less newsworthy: "not paying tax on profit you don't make".

[russd7]

there are fuck all poor dairy farmers in my experience

actually a lot of poor dairy farmers and a whole lot more that are starting to hurt real bad right now but that wasn't what i was meaning, was more about the dairy bashing that goes on. some of it warranted but a lot not warranted.

now, the hospitality industry and the way they treat staff from pay right through to work conditions is one that needs a real good effen shake up but wont happen because people will have to pay to much for their chai lattes.

[Akzle]

jews all.


vote akzle.

[jellywrestler]

ask them for a GST receipt next time...

i often choose eftpos but realised i was wasting my time as there's hundreds a day in some places...

[R650R]

Back in the day....when we had a stable housing market everyone was complaining about dole bludgers and welfare families having a free house for life, someone started spousing user pays.... So someone though it was a a good idea to sell off a large amount of these assetts to the private sector, and that welfare recipient should pay market rents... Some or many of you voted for that someone....
About this time the unions started dying off, individual employment contracts came out and people started thinking about themselves... Soon wages for many jobs were shite so people started leaving in droves... creating a shortage of skilled workers....
So someone opened the flood gates of immigration and all these foriegn people came in buying up houses not believeing how cheap they were in paradise. And coming from longer developed countries they knew where things were going.....
Soon mom and pop investors realised real estate was a good thing, they make up 40% of landlords in this country, peopel who own one renatl property only....
Anyway the reason we have proeprty investors is because we have such low interest rates because thats what people with homes and mortgages like. So its pointless to put your cash into any financial product no matter how "low" the risk is when bricks and mortar returns 10%p/a easily and the asset itself rises in value at same time.
So remember the reason your paying mega bucks for your mortage its because you looked down upon those getting a handout from the govt. So in cutting off our nose to spite our face, not only are we paying more for our own homes, we're having to pay the benificies even more for their higher living costs!!!!!

[R650R]

When English is your second language..... flushing shite into stream is Devolution not Revolution......

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/92644119/environment-court-rules-controversial-auckland-developer-must-pay-90k-costs

[pritch]

there are fuck all poor dairy farmers in my experience

You would probably be surprised to know how many have a community services card though.

[Zedder]

Members of Parliament property investments:https://www.interest.co.nz/property/87597/new-zealands-mps-have-interests-350-properties-between-them-three-each-25-if-you-cut

[oldrider]

You would probably be surprised to know how many have a community services card though.

True! - and other well healed miscellaneous business people from "all walks of life" - it seems to make them feel good by bucking the system! :wings:

[merv]

The whole lot of squealing going on about negative gearing is a load of rubbish.

An investor starting out young buys houses and borrows money from the bank. Just think about that, say the investor early on is paying for example $30,000 interest to the bank in the first year (keep it simple as an example and ignore other expenses such as rates, insurance etc) and claims that as a tax deductible expense, it gets offset as a loss against any other income the investor makes. So if the investor's income is effectively $30,000 less, the tax saving is $10,000 at 33c in the dollar. Now here's the rub, the poor bugger still paid $30,000 in interest and only gets $10,000 back, so that investment still cost $20,0000.

Add the other expenses which again remember are still costing 2/3 with a 33c in the dollar tax rebate and the poor bugger is probably having to pay in about another $10,000 p.a.

That means early on most mum and pop investors are usually tipping cash into their rentals because typically rents don't cover those costs at all. People act like it is a crime that some have enough rentals that the costs of the rentals can offset other income and the investor may effectively pay no tax if it zeroes out. However, as I've shown above the money may not be paid to the Govt as tax but 2/3 of all costs are still being paid, including the one big one of local body tax namely rates, and then there is the interest costs.

Don't be under any illusion here the winner is always the bank which makes great profits whether you deposit money or borrow money.

As rentals mature, loans get paid down, interest diminishes, tax rebates diminish, but usually with say a 20 or 30 year mortgage the amount paid to a bank each month doesn't diminish. Sure the money starts going more to paying off the capital of the loan but the investor still has to find the money with less tax rebate and rent payments can't be raised just for that. It is not until the investor has finally paid off enough loans to reap some income or is in a position to cash up and sell that any money can be made.

Now none of this is different to any business that raises money through a loan to buy property, machinery or whatever. Most businesses with shareholders make sure they run with a debt level that allows them to claim optimum tax deductions and if profits rise they have a habit of doing share buybacks and raise their debt to do it. A bit like cashing up and selling a house for the shareholder but for the company it takes on more loans.

People begrudge the housing investor but as has been said above if investors aren't going to provide housing who will? A roof over a person's head surely is as much a basic need as food, yet no one seems to squeal about the tax arrangements of supermarkets, fast food joints like Maccas etc, but sure as hell they will be doing exactly the same with tax deduction of expenses.

People like Gareth Morgan keep spouting on about trying to get money out of housing and into investment in business (e.g. shares) which he keeps calling the productive sector. It wouldn't be a productive sector without any housing of employees which is no different than providing transport, telecomms or whatever. Housing is all part of the total requirements.

When I was young a rule of thumb was that assets like houses doubled in value every ten years and over the long run I doubt that has changed, but we have seen some spikes over the last 10 - 15 years. As anyone living in Wellington knows house values flattened from the time of the GFC around 2008 and in many cases went negative and the recent rise in values has gone nowhere near to correcting the trend. A house that could be bought in 2007 for say $500,000 was probably still able to be bought for that in 2015 and may have even dipped under $450,000 around 2010. Now it probably costs $750,000 and rising and people are squealing because it has gone up $250,000 in two years, but on the long run it has only gone up 50% in 10 years which is only about 4% p.a on the long run.

Yet well prior to the GFC we had the oil crises of 1974 and 1979 and for the next 25 years or so house price inflation was probably closer to 10% p.a and somehow no one seemed to blame investors then.

What is the difference now? The biggie in my view is how wage growth got screwed all in the name of productivity starting in the 1980's. People with less money is more the issue than houses inflating at traditional rates (albeit with up and down spikes) and that coupled with immigration so that people can bring foreign money in and outbid underpaid NZ workers on property.

[YellowDog]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here. The media knows nothing and reports anything to make readable stories only. Auckland prices from last September, to now, have dropped around 20% in some sectors. The Fletcher build rabbit hutches are still selling. There are many streets (formerly pasture) of non-English speakers, paying $1.2m per hutch. This is not the market most of us compete in.

The comments made by the politicians indicate that they certainly know nothing. Foreigners consider Kiwi housing to be very poor and inferior. Forcing them to live in higher standard new homes, is not a punshment. It is encouraging them - lol.

Lots of so called investors lose heaps of cash and many end up with divorces and serious debts, just because they believe what the idiot media and what its following sheep have been telling them.

The real estate industry is overflowing with prertentious scavengers whom would do and say anything to get your business. Most Real Estate agents force prices down and don't push them up, to the degree of bullying the vendor into accepting well below the market price. They want their commissions. Selling the property for $800k or $890k, makes bugger all difference to the real estate agent, so they screw the vendor with their persuasive pearls of wisdom, regardless as to wherther the price is reasonable, or not. They just want the sale at any price, as without it, they earn $0.00.

With no basic salary to fall back upon, a large percentage, of newly licensed agents, don't make it past their first year. This is a very poor reflection upon the state of the industry and why you have so many scavengers, desperate to make a sale at any cost.

Greedy sellers try to push the prices up. The media goes out of its way to force prices up. However the main guilty party is the councils, looking to increase their revenue. Push up the CV and you automatically push up the sale price.

There are also lots of great agents around, whom will be honest and play it with a straight bat for you. These usually aren't in their 20s or 30s and don't work for the big four 'List & Sell' agencies (some do though). Lots of dumb arse homeowners think they can do it better themselves. Most don't ever sell, as they are working with their own delusions and media hype. They usually eventually sell through an agent, for a considerably lower price. Many private sellers get seriously fucked over, either by a smarter buyer, or 5-10 years down the line, when they get their arses sued off them, as they don't have industry knowledge or know and understand the governing laws.

Oh and BTW: It's not just Auckland, which is now seriously lagging behind the huge (catching up), increases areas of many other areas :no:

Yes, yes, of course I work in Real Estate and yes of course I consider it to be a shitty industry, containing many bad human beings. Being a responsible and caring individual, is quite a handicap - lol. But I'm not that self-riteous. I do have good and honest friends that I collaborate with, working at all of the big five agencies - lol.

[Ocean1]

The peasants are revolting. :laugh:

The sheer number of media articles quoting politically vested interests pointing the finger at rich pricks for housing affordability is a farce.

Just to be perfectly clear: If you're getting a subsidy to live in someone else's house then chances are you're a far greater drain on taxpayers than anyone legally declining to pay tax on money they're not earning.

[Ocean1]

People like Gareth Morgan keep spouting on about trying to get money out of housing and into investment in business (e.g. shares) which he keeps calling the productive sector.

He's right, it is the productive sector.

And it's a damned fine idea to support it, it drives the whole economy.

And Kiwis used to do just that, until repeated market crashes and socialist meddling lost a lot of them their life's savings.

So now we're stuck with bricks and mortar, which may pay fuck all but tends not to sink with the loss of all hands.

[merv]

Yeah so true Ocean but point I was making is you still need houses for everyone to be part of the productive system as a total.

[Jin]

http://i.investopedia.com/inv/tutorials/site/economics/economics5.gif

[Ocean1]

Yeah so true Ocean but point I was making is you still need houses for everyone to be part of the productive system as a total.

Yes. Insomuch as people living under bridges probably tend to be a bit unproductive.

But it's a chicken and egg thing, innit? Isn't low productivity likely to be a key contributor to not owning a house?

[Ocean1]

Graph thing

All very well, in a free market.

But it's not, you've got any amount of councils, regulatory authorities, materials supply monopolies and dodgy developers colluding to punch the fuck out of the ticket on the way past.

Which begs the question: what would the cost of supply be if it was a genuinely free market?

[TheDemonLord]

All very well, in a free market.

But it's not, you've got any amount of councils, regulatory authorities, materials supply monopolies and dodgy developers colluding to punch the fuck out of the ticket on the way past.

Which begs the question: what would the cost of supply be if it was a genuinely free market?

However, you need those checks and balances because there is not perfect information and not perfect understanding.

[Ocean1]

However, you need those checks and balances because there is not perfect information and not perfect understanding.

What checks and balances?

Council regulation? Who needs them? As the one paying for them I sure as fuck don't.

With what they're charging I could pay for a custom design with full engineering spec's and 10 private surveyors for far more in-depth inspections. They're a monopoly, you don't even have to make such comparisons, it's axiomatic: they're massively overcharging.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What checks and balances?

Council regulation? Who needs them? As the one paying for them I sure as fuck don't.

With what they're charging I could pay for a custom design with full engineering spec's and 10 private surveyors for far more in-depth inspections. They're a monopoly, you don't even have to make such comparisons, it's axiomatic: they're massively overcharging.

a lot of them got stuck with high overhead because they were the last man standing in the leaky building (ongoing) crisis, so they have to recover that debit somewhere so they load to this line item......

not excusing, just explaining.

why does a small group of islands at the literal end of the earth need three tiers of gubblemunt? (central, regional, local).

Its fucked up.

and 56 boards/bodies in charge of water when water quality is declining like a motherfucker.

[TheDemonLord]

What checks and balances?

Council regulation? Who needs them? As the one paying for them I sure as fuck don't.

With what they're charging I could pay for a custom design with full engineering spec's and 10 private surveyors for far more in-depth inspections. They're a monopoly, you don't even have to make such comparisons, it's axiomatic: they're massively overcharging.

This is where perfect information and perfect comprehension comes in.

Let's assume (cause I don't know you IRL) - that you aren't what you say you are - you could be in the business long enough to talk the talk, but not follow through (whilst being superficially credible)

This is where the need for some form of regulation comes in.

Now, I don't agree that the Current method and council system is correct, but I balance this with acknowledging that perfect free market economy is not a viable option because of the lack of perfect information.

[Ocean1]

This is where perfect information and perfect comprehension comes in.

Let's assume (cause I don't know you IRL) - that you aren't what you say you are - you could be in the business long enough to talk the talk, but not follow through (whilst being superficially credible)

This is where the need for some form of regulation comes in.

Now, I don't agree that the Current method and council system is correct, but I balance this with acknowledging that perfect free market economy is not a viable option because of the lack of perfect information.

Bullshit. A monopoly isn't just an abomination against free market fetishists, (although in passing I gota ask: who's fucking money is it?) it's a guarantee of rampant graft, with prices utterly divorced from both the cost to supply and any rational explanation whatsoever. Look around, the shysters you imagine might replace them couldn't possibly do as much economic damage.

By all means dictate standards discouraging fuckwits from connecting sewerage to stormwater systems, the cost of that should probably be about $100 per dwelling, most of the actual services required are built by the developer.

There's a new subdivision up the road, couple of dozen lots. The sections were "developed" by the simple expediency of extending a road a few yards, (literally), sticking a few pegs in describing where you were allowed to build your pre-ordered spec' house, (no, sir may not use anyone else to either design or build his house, nor could sir negotiate the price) and bunging in a driveway crossing. All of the infrastructure was existing, had been for decades. The price? $450k minimum.

Big black dog up the fuckers, you want an explanation for massively over priced housing then lay it at your local council's feet.

[YellowDog]

Property investors are providing a valuable service, by allowimg those whom cannot afford to buy a property, to have somewhere to rent or to buy. Prices are high everywhere, not just in Auckland. Vendors want as much as the market will pay and why not? It's how a market works and we would otherwise be driving around in Trabants.

Those foreign investors whom land bank and or whom leave properties empty, should be penalised :bash:

[Jin]

All very well, in a free market.

But it's not, you've got any amount of councils, regulatory authorities, materials supply monopolies and dodgy developers colluding to punch the fuck out of the ticket on the way past.

Which begs the question: what would the cost of supply be if it was a genuinely free market?
Wrong. In the real world you cant see supply and demand graphs only what prices are doing. Thats why its crucial that prices arnt manipulated or interfered with. No i havent bothered to tell the govt, rbnz et al because they are a bunch of ignorant mofos.

You are on the right track though. There is no shortage of land in Auckland. The shortage of supply is solely due to council manipulation and interference. The developers trying to work within the rules are still going broke they arent the problem. Neither are real estate agents, mums and dads, baby boomers, land bankers, foreign investors and so on.

And materials supply monopolies are a result of council and govt rules. In fact all monopolies exist only because of govt rules and protectionism.

[Ocean1]

Wrong. In the real world you cant see supply and demand graphs only what prices are doing. Thats why its crucial that prices arnt manipulated or interfered with. No i havent bothered to tell the govt, rbnz et al because they are a bunch of ignorant mofos.

You are on the right track though. There is no shortage of land in Auckland. The shortage of supply is solely due to council manipulation and interference. The developers trying to work within the rules are still going broke they arent the problem. Neither are real estate agents, mums and dads, baby boomers, land bankers, foreign investors and so on.

And materials supply monopolies are a result of council and govt rules. In fact all monopolies exist only because of govt rules and protectionism.

Bit wobbly to start with, there.

But a good strong finish. Well done.

[Jin]

Bit wobbly to start with, there.

But a good strong finish. Well done.
Ha thanks. I could explain in detail but i cbf ive been saying the same thing for over 10 years and its a waste of time. The only thing you can count on is that current environment wont change and the supply will be constrained for a very long time most likely it will never be solved. So if you can buy property in Auckland virtually risk free investment bar a catastrophic event like a tsunami or volcano that wipes out a large number of jafas.

[YellowDog]

Wrong. In the real world you cant see supply and demand graphs only what prices are doing. Thats why its crucial that prices arnt manipulated or interfered with. No i havent bothered to tell the govt, rbnz et al because they are a bunch of ignorant mofos.

You are on the right track though. There is no shortage of land in Auckland. The shortage of supply is solely due to council manipulation and interference. The developers trying to work within the rules are still going broke they arent the problem. Neither are real estate agents, mums and dads, baby boomers, land bankers, foreign investors and so on.

And materials supply monopolies are a result of council and govt rules. In fact all monopolies exist only because of govt rules and protectionism.

Yes of course, if the Auckland house building prices were actually real, then there would not be any new homes in many other part of the country :no:

[Voltaire]

You only have to go 30 minutes North or South of Auckland to see there is no shortage of land.

Unfortunately what appears to be barely controlled immigration has overwhelmed the infrastructure.

Given NZ's history is getting infrastructure built its going to get worse.

With industry based on selling milk,milking tourists and no real return on passive investments its no wonder people buy houses.

Why not, you can see them, touch them, claim all the interest and costs back. Only down side is you have to have tenants

who in my experience can be a bit hit and miss. Other options are start a business or invest in one, both are risky and the

former is hard work and anyone who does it deserves their BMW Ba



I bet Labour capitalises on the groundswell of high housing and immigration as their policies.....

[YellowDog]

I bet Labour capitalises on the groundswell of high housing and immigration as their policies.....

I don't believe that the words 'Labour' & 'Capitalise' belong in the same sentence.

I guess if they ditched the Greens, they might get a different reception.

Reconstruct these words to form a sentece:

'Party'
'A'
'Brothel'
'In'
'Labour'
'Organise'
'Bunk-up'
'The'
'A'
'Couldn't'

[Ocean1]

a lot of them got stuck with high overhead because they were the last man standing in the leaky building (ongoing) crisis, so they have to recover that debit somewhere so they load to this line item......

Who should be responsible for dramatic fuckups, where the council defines standards and inspections?

When I work on any significant project my clients expect to see professional negligence insurance mentioned in the contract. Why would any council customer expect less of any entity so historically prone to massive fuckups?

Why wouldn't any potential customer not demand an alternative supplier from the outset?

[YellowDog]

Who should be responsible for dramatic fuckups, where the council defines standards and inspections?

When I work on any significant project my clients expect to see professional misconduct insurance mentioned in the contract. Why would any council customer expect less of any entity so historically prone to massive fuckups?

Why wouldn't any potential customer not demand an alternative supplier from the outset?

It's not always the council's fault :no:

The number of properties that have passed the inspection, before the concrete is poured, and then after the inspector has left, the metalwork is removed and set up on to the next site, is not funny :no:

I know a couple of councillors whom have told me they are trying to keep the problem under wraps, so as to avoid panic.

Are cracking/sinking homes, better or worse than leaky homes?

We're well overdue for another scandal.

My next property purchase will include a metal detection phase :yes:

[Zedder]

It's not always the council's fault :no:

The number of properties that have passed the inspection, before the concrete is poured, and then after the inspector has left, the metalwork is removed and set up on to the next site, is not funny :no:

Yes, I've heard that from people in the building industry too. The new building code NZS 3604, which came about from the 2004 Building Act, is meant to be adhered to but sometimes is not, and the Council is meant to inspect that work is to that code however they do get deceived.

[YellowDog]

Yes, I've heard that from people in the building industry too. The new building code NZS 3604, which came about from the 2004 Building Act, is meant to be adhered to but sometimes is not, and the Council is meant to inspect that work is to that code however they do get deceived.

I was getting some concreting done myself and one of the guys told me that his mother-in-law is a council inspector. She inspected and passed a Millwater bulding site and was heading back to the office. She was half way down the motorway and suddenly realised that she had fogotten to inspect the shared storm water services. So she turned around and was back on site, within the hour. As she approached, the site, she could see two 4x4s towing out the metalwork, on to the adjacent site, which was due for inspection on the following week.

Some of those foreign building firms don't give a shit about NZ and are not here for the long haul. There's noone to sue, 3 years down the line, when it all starts breaking up.

All that happens is that, once they are caught, they get fined heavily. They don't go to jail, or have their right to build revoked, so they can do the same again to help pay the fines :mad:

[Ocean1]

It's not always the council's fault :no:

The number of properties that have passed the inspection, before the concrete is poured, and then after the inspector has left, the metalwork is removed and set up on to the next site, is not funny :no:

I know a couple of councillors whom have told me they are trying to keep the problem under wraps, so as to avoid panic.

Are cracking/sinking homes, better or worse than leaky homes?

We're well overdue for another scandal.

My next property purchase will include a metal detection phase :yes:

If the council's inspection regime doesn't produce in-spec' results then who's fault is that?

Again: the acid test is "would the customer pay for the service if they didn't have to?"

But I'm not just bitching about the council, why are building sites priced so far over the cost to supply them?

Nowhere in the real world should it cost $450k for a lump of dirt with a couple of pipes laid in. It's a fucking joke.

[YellowDog]

If the council's inspection regime doesn't produce in-spec' results then who's fault is that?

Again: the acid test is "would the customer pay for the service if they didn't have to?"

But I'm not just bitching about the council, why are building sites priced so far over the cost to supply them?

Nowhere in the real world should it cost $450k for a lump of dirt with a couple of pipes laid in. It's a fucking joke.

Hobsonville Point has poxy 400sqm sections at $700k and then you have to pay on top to build something :o

Owners, now living in their dream, 4Bed/2Bath/Garage, homes tell me you can hear your neighbours shitting (at no extra charge).

Fletchers throw in the sound of neighbours shitting, in Hobsonville Point, for a cool $1,195,000 :lol:

[sidecar bob]

If the council's inspection regime doesn't produce in-spec' results then who's fault is that?

Again: the acid test is "would the customer pay for the service if they didn't have to?"

But I'm not just bitching about the council, why are building sites priced so far over the cost to supply them?

Nowhere in the real world should it cost $450k for a lump of dirt with a couple of pipes laid in. It's a fucking joke.

I have just purchased a site at $350/sq mtr in a vast commercial development.
They have moved millions of cube of dirt, including a 45 metre high hill, roads, a bridge, sewerage, drainage, services & a thousand other things, all in a huge way.
To be frank, I feel I got a bargain. The bridge alone was over $4M.
I usually agree with you, but your "couple of pipes laid in" bit is grossly over simplistic.

[Zedder]

Hobsonville Point has poxy 400sqm sections at $700k and then you have to pay on top to build something :o

Owners, now living in their dream, 4Bed/2Bath/Garage, homes tell me you can hear your neighbours shitting (at no extra charge).

Fletchers throw in the sound of neighbours shitting, in Hobsonville Point, for a cool $1,195,000 :lol:


Yep, Hobsonville Point is a disgusting place.

Also, among others, there's an eight-story apartment block in Auburn Street Takapuna that's got the go ahead although it had 10 separate aspects not permitted under the North Shore District plan. It got the ok under "discretionary powers".

[Ocean1]

I have just purchased a site at $350/sq mtr in a vast commercial development.
They have moved millions of cube of dirt, including a 45 metre high hill, roads, a bridge, sewerage, drainage, services & a thousand other things, all in a huge way.
To be frank, I feel I got a bargain. The bridge alone was over $4M.
I usually agree with you, but your "couple of pipes laid in" bit is grossly over simplistic.

I assure you that in the case of the development up the road here it's fuck all of an exaggeration. I pinned a mate down about it, professional earthworks contractor, who eventually suggested his company with a team of maybe 4 guys could have prepared to the same standard in about two weeks. I think there was 24 odd sites involved. $12 million for a couple of weeks work is fucking good money in anyone's language, although he did warn me that there'd be a couple of cubes of concrete and a quantity of compliance costs he wasn't prepared to discuss to add to his labour.

I have no problem whatsoever with people taking reasonable profit from their work, but I have a huge problem with completely arbitrary and fucking ridiculous prices from a comfortable wee monopoly set up by the local old boys club.

[Ocean1]

I have just purchased a site at $350/sq mtr in a vast commercial development.

Also: You Rich Pricks sicken me.

[sidecar bob]

Also: You Rich Pricks sicken me.

Rich???, you mean lucky.
I only bought four square metres.:innocent:

[Grumph]

Rich???, you mean lucky.
I only bought four square metres.:innocent:

Going to put a sign there directing people to your existing premises ?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I assure you that in the case of the development up the road here it's fuck all of an exaggeration. I pinned a mate down about it, professional earthworks contractor, who eventually suggested his company with a team of maybe 4 guys could have prepared to the same standard in about two weeks. I think there was 24 odd sites involved. $12 million for a couple of weeks work is fucking good money in anyone's language, although he did warn me that there'd be a couple of cubes of concrete and a quantity of compliance costs he wasn't prepared to discuss to add to his labour.

I have no problem whatsoever with people taking reasonable profit from their work, but I have a huge problem with completely arbitrary and fucking ridiculous prices from a comfortable wee monopoly set up by the local old boys club.

My favourite commercial jobs are ones where the client owns the site, then spends $300k or so on plans. planners, traffic engineers and council. Before a spade is turned in the earth.

I had a guy setting up a bar in a new commercial build on the busiest road in town. He was forced by council to put a "noise lobby" into the site taking out two restaurant tables - onto a road that is thronged with traffic all the time. Council were concerned about "noise spill" into the street from the restaurant. Oh, the acoustic engineer? two lots of $8k. Traffic engineer (it had two carparks round the back) $5k. Fire engineer (probably necessary) $12k.

I did OK out of it too but it was a lot of work.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Rich???, you mean lucky.
I only bought four square metres.:innocent:

let me guess: hot dog stand?

[Laava]

Also: You Rich Pricks sicken me.

Careful bro! We'll tag you in the Dual Logins thread!

[merv]

Also: You Rich Pricks sicken me.

Lol, the way you talk you don't sound too poor yourself, maybe you are even richer than Bob.

[merv]

As for quality of construction jobs and abiding by the rules I've just read this story http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/92782517/no-water-for-firefighters-to-battle-highrise-blaze where the fire hydrant risers had been disconnected and then a worker sets fire up top with a gas torch.

Probably under pressure from the developers to get the job done and the Council not watching what they were doing with fore protection.

[Ocean1]

My favourite commercial jobs are ones where the client owns the site, then spends $300k or so on plans. planners, traffic engineers and council. Before a spade is turned in the earth.

I had a guy setting up a bar in a new commercial build on the busiest road in town. He was forced by council to put a "noise lobby" into the site taking out two restaurant tables - onto a road that is thronged with traffic all the time. Council were concerned about "noise spill" into the street from the restaurant. Oh, the acoustic engineer? two lots of $8k. Traffic engineer (it had two carparks round the back) $5k. Fire engineer (probably necessary) $12k.

I did OK out of it too but it was a lot of work.

Just assume there's a facepalm big enough to cover that here eh?

[Ocean1]

As for quality of construction jobs and abiding by the rules I've just read this story http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/92782517/no-water-for-firefighters-to-battle-highrise-blaze where the fire hydrant risers had been disconnected and then a worker sets fire up top with a gas torch.

Probably under pressure from the developers to get the job done and the Council not watching what they were doing with fore protection.

I've seen the opposite, a 6" riser that was installed with a seriously dodgy joint at a service hatch on the 6th floor. It was chocked straight to stop it dripping, with the chock supported by the service hatch.

Someone who shall remain nameless was silly enough to open the hatch to access com's cabling.

Six floors of a 5 star hotel were flooded.

The insurance company spent a LOT of time and effort attempting to construct alternative facts regarding the above summary of events.

[Akzle]

Lol, the way you talk you don't sound too poor yourself, maybe you are even richer than Bob.

i'm richer than all y'all.


fuckall jewgold though.

[husaberg]

Careful bro! We'll tag you in the Dual Logins thread!

Duel logins....oh you mean Like Kuntman and Cuntsina...........

[YellowDog]

i'm richer than all y'all.

Yes Sir, we know you are.

How high would you like us to jump?

[Zedder]

My favourite commercial jobs are ones where the client owns the site, then spends $300k or so on plans. planners, traffic engineers and council. Before a spade is turned in the earth.

I had a guy setting up a bar in a new commercial build on the busiest road in town. He was forced by council to put a "noise lobby" into the site taking out two restaurant tables - onto a road that is thronged with traffic all the time. Council were concerned about "noise spill" into the street from the restaurant. Oh, the acoustic engineer? two lots of $8k. Traffic engineer (it had two carparks round the back) $5k. Fire engineer (probably necessary) $12k.

I did OK out of it too but it was a lot of work.


Heh, there's quite a lot involved alright. From my time at Fulton Hogan and Downers, iirc it went: feasibilty assessments/budget costings, topographical survey/scheme plan of development, resource consent application and issue of consent then site construction.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Duel logins....oh you mean Like Kuntman and Cuntsina...........

is Duel Logins related to Kenny Logins? Are we in a zone.....? of danger?


are we in the DANGER ZONE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siwpn14IE7E

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/siwpn14IE7E?list=pgnPAuhYSw0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[HenryDorsetCase]

Heh, there's quite a lot involved alright. From my time at Fulton Hogan and Downers, iirc it went: feasibilty assessments/budget costings, topographical survey/scheme plan of development, resource consent application and issue of consent then site construction.

the hilarious thing was it was a new build, and the rent was pretty outrageous and it was zoned "commercial" but hospo was discretionary not permitted. Add to that the fucking council trying to "curtail" the number of likker outlets (and the hours --- fuck, the hours... dont get me started) and it was a ginormous fuckup --- took a year. Oh, and the builder on the fitout was a complete fucking douchecanoe. Sees Asians and thinks welp, they've got nothing but money (sometimes but not necessarily true) and I can charge what I like. I had a number of quite testy conversations with that fuckwit. Turns out a lot of people have no idea about the CCA disputes process. Nor do I really but the important thing was I knew more than him, and I also am friends with one of the best commercial barristers in the town. So fuck that arse clown.

[husaberg]

is Duel Logins related to Kenny Logins? Are we in a zone.....? of danger?


are we in the DANGER ZONE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siwpn14IE7E



I prefered Top gun to footloose
<iframe seamless="seamless" style="width: 100%; border: none; display: block; max-width: 420px; height: 360px;" src="https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/embed/e8fb6c11-31e9-4999-b63e-02a905b31f28?autoplay=false"> </iframe>

[Akzle]

Yes Sir, we know you are.

How high would you like us to jump?

doesn't concern me :scratch:

[sidecar bob]

Also: You Rich Pricks sicken me.
I only bought some dirt that's probably worth no more than I paid for it. It's not like I trail ride a R1200gs or anything. Post #38 Cassina. :facepalm:

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/181022-Looking-for-advice-on-BMW-GS-models/page3

[Ocean1]

I only bought some dirt that's probably worth no more than I paid for it. It's not like I trail ride a R1200gs or anything. Post #38 Cassina. :facepalm:

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/181022-Looking-for-advice-on-BMW-GS-models/page3

At least I didn't abuse you for not being unemployed.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183087-The-Future-of-Work?p=1131046909#post1131046909

[HenryDorsetCase]

I prefered Top gun to footloose


I prefer ARCHER to either of those. Though I did like the GPz900 Tom Cruise (sorry, Maverick) was riding in TOP GUN

[husaberg]

I prefer ARCHER to either of those. Though I did like the GPz900 Tom Cruise (sorry, Maverick) was riding in TOP GUN

With no helmet as he was sooooo cool.
At least he never went on group rides

[Brian d marge]

Back in the day....when we had a stable housing market everyone was complaining about dole bludgers and welfare families having a free house for life, someone started spousing user pays.... So someone though it was a a good idea to sell off a large amount of these assetts to the private sector, and that welfare recipient should pay market rents... Some or many of you voted for that someone....
About this time the unions started dying off, individual employment contracts came out and people started thinking about themselves... Soon wages for many jobs were shite so people started leaving in droves... creating a shortage of skilled workers....
So someone opened the flood gates of immigration and all these foriegn people came in buying up houses not believeing how cheap they were in paradise. And coming from longer developed countries they knew where things were going.....
Soon mom and pop investors realised real estate was a good thing, they make up 40% of landlords in this country, peopel who own one renatl property only....
Anyway the reason we have proeprty investors is because we have such low interest rates because thats what people with homes and mortgages like. So its pointless to put your cash into any financial product no matter how "low" the risk is when bricks and mortar returns 10%p/a easily and the asset itself rises in value at same time.
So remember the reason your paying mega bucks for your mortage its because you looked down upon those getting a handout from the govt. So in cutting off our nose to spite our face, not only are we paying more for our own homes, we're having to pay the benificies even more for their higher living costs!!!!!
Absolutely. And the common thread behind all of this
Banks and debt based money
Last time I was in NZ about a year ago., All I saw on TV was
Home improvement, Maggie Barry nice home , English look at the house , sorry not home , look at the house I made
House and garden

All adverts for banks. And as u quite rightly said, if only safe avenue to provide a nest egg for the family is property then of course people will ,

Until the incentive is move away from housing and laws to limit over inflated overseas money distorting the price ...

A picking cotton for a handful​ of rice is your lot life.

Learn to love ur Masters it's easier if you try

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

Until the incentive is move away from housing and laws to limit over inflated overseas money distorting the price ...

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

I think that boat had well and truly sailed. Houses are less likely to disappear than 0's and 1's. Why do banks get 'bailed out' yet euan mee dont?

[Brian d marge]

I think that boat had well and truly sailed. Houses are less likely to disappear than 0's and 1's. Why do banks get 'bailed out' yet euan mee dont?
Cause we ain't in the club ... Here in Japan the house is worthless, the land is what hold value

Some people couldn't GIVE away the house because it cost more to remove the house to free up the land

U can buy " free hold". A house on a small plot of land for 4 million yen

Again it depends what u call an investment, me, skills , that's what I've been up to ( as I type , I'm in the middle of making some arrows for tuesdays shoot .) And I own an Enfield , which uses "points" and can run on Indian gasoline.
Try that with ya Honda

All set for August ,

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

As much as renters need improved tenure and better living standards......

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12132076

Crunching the numbers in Auckland I can't see how you can rent a $1 000 000 house for $600 a week.

40% deposit is 400K ( if you need to have one).

600K at 4.5 % is 27K ($519.00 PW)

then you have insurances, rates, maintenance and so on.

Add the cost of heatpumps and insulation on top of that.

And now pets.

Bloody greedy landlords....:whistle:

[sidecar bob]

As much as renters need improved tenure and better living standards......

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12132076

Crunching the numbers in Auckland I can't see how you can rent a $1 000 000 house for $600 a week.

40% deposit is 400K ( if you need to have one).

600K at 4.5 % is 27K ($519.00 PW)

then you have insurances, rates, maintenance and so on.

Add the cost of heatpumps and insulation on top of that.

And now pets.

Bloody greedy landlords....:whistle:

No no, Auckland landlords are supposed to be cashed up former Waikato dairy farmers that want a small safe return on the millions they got for the farm.
If you only have 400k, best to buy four 200k houses in wanganui with a 400k mortgage & get a better overall result with relatively low risk.
You guys probably aren't aware, but if you just keep driving when you get to Manakau the road keeps going & they have whole towns & houses for sale & all sorts of cool stuff.

[Voltaire]

No no, Auckland landlords are supposed to be cashed up former Waikato dairy farmers that want a small safe return on the millions they got for the farm.
If you only have 400k, best to buy four 200k houses in wanganui with a 400k mortgage & get a better overall result with relatively low risk.
You guys probably aren't aware, but if you just keep driving when you get to Manakau the road keeps going & they have whole towns & houses for sale & all sorts of cool stuff.

I had a drive around Whanganui a few weeks ago, some good buys there and a great Japanese restaurant and craft beer bar on Ingestre St.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential-property-for-sale/auction-1767618127.htm?rsqid=58519b5dcc0c46e681ecdb23524b9 4a9
$195K

https://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/plus/868528974.jpg

[sidecar bob]

I had a drive around Whanganui a few weeks ago, some good buys there and a great Japanese restaurant and craft beer bar on Ingestre St.

]

You are aware we will look back on craft beers the same way as we look at mullets & brick phones now.

[Laava]

You are aware we will look back on craft beers the same way as we look at mullets & brick phones now.

Lol. i guffawed into my triple shot soy latte!

[Voltaire]

You are aware we will look back on craft beers the same way as we look at mullets & brick phones now.



Craft Beer has been around for ages, the Europeans just call it beer.
When touring around Europe for 4 months in the Summer of '89 tried lots from Belgian Sour/cherry beers,German Weiss Biers, French crap like 1664/33 that used to get on day trips to Calais and Dunkirk, Czech Pilseners, Engish ales and Irish Porters ( other than Guinness).

I was only here for 4 years of my 20's so 'missed' a lot of the local 80's/90's, once I got my Trade Cert I was off.

[WALRUS]

We've got a bit of a housing crisis over here. An increasing number of homeless people and most of that is attributed to investors buying up properties and spiking the market and fucking AirBNB. The number of properties which have been rentals for years and years and years who are turfing out their tenants so that they can just use their house as an AirBNB is crazy! Similarly, the number of properties being bought specifically to turn them into AirBNB's instead of renting or being bought by locals to live in is stupidly high as well.

I've got no beef with people buying houses to rent them out, or buying houses to do them up and sell them on. I've just got a problem with people who buy properties and then make them inaccessible for the people who could/want to live there.

[oldrider]

Craft Beer has been around for ages, the Europeans just call it beer.
When touring around Europe for 4 months in the Summer of '89 tried lots from Belgian Sour/cherry beers,German Weiss Biers, French crap like 1664/33 that used to get on day trips to Calais and Dunkirk, Czech Pilseners, Engish ales and Irish Porters ( other than Guinness).

I was only here for 4 years of my 20's so 'missed' a lot of the local 80's/90's, once I got my Trade Cert I was off.

This country was dotted with little Breweries until the monopolists bought them all out and closed them down in favour of their own (boring) product! :brick:

Nice trend today with "boutique" breweries popping up all over the place again. Producing some very palatable products too. :drinknsin: - :2thumbsup . Choice every time!

[TheDemonLord]

As much as renters need improved tenure and better living standards......

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12132076

Crunching the numbers in Auckland I can't see how you can rent a $1 000 000 house for $600 a week.

40% deposit is 400K ( if you need to have one).

600K at 4.5 % is 27K ($519.00 PW)

then you have insurances, rates, maintenance and so on.

Add the cost of heatpumps and insulation on top of that.

And now pets.

Bloody greedy landlords....:whistle:

Nah - you deduct the net-loss you are making on the property from the gross profit you are making on your other business, therefore paying tax on a smaller amount of profit from your other business. Which means you are effectively increasing your equity for free...

[neels]

Nah - you deduct the net-loss you are making on the property from the gross profit you are making on your other business, therefore paying tax on a smaller amount of profit from your other business. Which means you are effectively increasing your equity for free...
Unless they change those rules as well, and go back to ring fencing losses to write off against future profits....

I don't know how things are in the rest of the country, but where I live nobody is too concerned about that, as the losses aren't huge and most people will be able to live without a tax refund of a couple of thousand on each property. The interesting part of the rental loss equation is the fact that there is a house available for someone to live in for a total cost to the taxpayer of around $2k per year, if HNZ can do it for that then they should get on with it.

If landlords keep getting out of the market and the houses go on the market I suspect it will be my kids and their mates who will be buying them, there will be a pretty large number of tenants that regardless of what's for sale aren't and may never be in a position to be able to buy, so the state will have to provide housing for them as well as the current waiting list.

[sidecar bob]

Craft Beer has been around for ages, the Europeans just call it beer.
When touring around Europe for 4 months in the Summer of '89 tried lots from Belgian Sour/cherry beers,German Weiss Biers, French crap like 1664/33 that used to get on day trips to Calais and Dunkirk, Czech Pilseners, Engish ales and Irish Porters ( other than Guinness).

I was only here for 4 years of my 20's so 'missed' a lot of the local 80's/90's, once I got my Trade Cert I was off.
I recently realised one of my closest mates has turned into a craft beer swilling, bearded hipster.
Heres a pic of him.

[Grumph]

I recently realised one of my closest mates has turned into a craft beer swilling, bearded hipster.
Heres a pic of him.

He's young, there's time to adjust him....Don't think I'd have been game to jump that thing quite so high. Didn't I see that the frame was built by the poms ?

[BMWST?]

Unless they change those rules as well, and go back to ring fencing losses to write off against future profits....

I don't know how things are in the rest of the country, but where I live nobody is too concerned about that, as the losses aren't huge and most people will be able to live without a tax refund of a couple of thousand on each property. The interesting part of the rental loss equation is the fact that there is a house available for someone to live in for a total cost to the taxpayer of around $2k per year, if HNZ can do it for that then they should get on with it.

If landlords keep getting out of the market and the houses go on the market I suspect it will be my kids and their mates who will be buying them, there will be a pretty large number of tenants that regardless of what's for sale aren't and may never be in a position to be able to buy, so the state will have to provide housing for them as well as the current waiting list.
thats the other side of the attractive tax regime...if the private lanlord doesnt buy houses and rent them out.....who will?

[Voltaire]

I recently realised one of my closest mates has turned into a craft beer swilling, bearded hipster.
Heres a pic of him.

Too much hops?:innocent:

[R650R]

Sure we had a housing crisis thread somewhere..... anyhow apparently we’ve been doing it all wrong....

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300456575/mediumdensity-residential-standards-provide-tangible-step-towards-decolonising-housing

I love reading extremist left wing opinion pieces, never fails to give a chuckle at the stupendously ridiculous idea so they have.
I completely understand the maori tradition and protocol around this stuff and was prob highly relevant in traditional living arrangements on Marae or pa were they didn’t have things like doors or sound insulated walls etc
But to say this applies in modern setting and we need to “decolonize” housing is crazy. Yes catering for large families is a valid point but hey as a country we need to work with what weve got.
As always if anyone’s unhappy with a FREE service they can apply for a refund immediately....
What she doesn’t realise is peasant level Pākehā would have had same ideals at one stage too but practically trumps previous norms when technology/construction negates the original issue.