The Future of Work

[Voltaire]

Went to a Humanity and Machine Symposium today.

There were some good speakers, from Facebook to John Spence.

Seemed to think that Dairy, Tourism and Wine was not ever going to build a good economy and need to get a techy educated

population. NZ is too far away but suited an on-line economy.

One of the speakers who I gather probably did all right in the tech world said he had sold everything, lived using Uber, Air B

and B, some on line credit bitcoin app and Facebook.

They say 30% of jobs will be done by machines by 2025.

Example was self flying plane, robots unloading and drones delivering, you have probably seen the burger flipper robot, and a

lot of driving jobs.

I do wonder with the reduced tax base who will actually be buying all the stuff that robots can then do?

Will robots pay tax?

Millennials will probably be calling more of the shots with not wanting to do what boring old Baby Boomers did....they want

'meaningful jobs", " work life balance" ," Nice Work Spaces" and so on.....:facepalm:

The Tesla they had on display interested me until I asked the only important question I ever ask about cars....how much?

$180 000.00...... could be a while till it drops to my 10 years and $10K A to B car purchase price limit.

The Pinot Gris and Asian/Italian Fusion food was quite nice

[oldrider]

I would have found that interesting too - but probably not for the reasons that the presenters might have thought.

Could I steal a little bit of your new thread by asking - do electric cars pay road user charges? :scratch:

[Grumph]

Did they say anything about the future of trades ? Unless all houses for example are factory made and identical, there's still a need for plumbers and sparky's as just two examples....

[pritch]

It may not affect me but I do have concerns. Somebody has to come up with an idea about how the people who lose their jobs will live. At the moment the plan seems to be for the "haves" to surround their homes with walls patrolled by armed guards. Don't laugh. After hurricane Katrina in the USA one gated community was protected by Israeli mercenaries armed with automatic weapons.

The only plan in evidence in the UK seems to be to abuse the uneployed and cut their benefits. And Britain is about to lose a lot more jobs to Europe.

In Godzone apathy rules, we'll be OK for a while, but...

[Ocean1]

I do wonder with the reduced tax base who will actually be buying all the stuff that robots can then do?

Will robots pay tax?

Millennials will probably be calling more of the shots with not wanting to do what boring old Baby Boomers did....they want

'meaningful jobs", " work life balance" ," Nice Work Spaces" and so on.....:facepalm:

Aye. Work Life Balance. :facepalm:

Compared to a generation ago it's already well past 30%, and I see a lot of people complaining that all this automation is taking jobs. Most of those jobs were increasingly difficult to get people to do though. See: Work Life Balance.

You might not find a job filling cartons with widgets any more but it's not real hard, you just have to find something to do that someone's willing to pay for. More work: More pay.

Now THAT'S how Work Life Balance really works. :laugh:

[jonbuoy]

Someone's got to design and maintain these automated systems. If I had children I would push them to be as techie or hands on as much as possible. Our schooling systems need to move with the times. Cursive writing, Religious education classes would be better replaced by coding or practicle skills. I can still see people being able to find niche markets as carpenters, metal workers etc..

[Voltaire]

I would have found that interesting too - but probably not for the reasons that the presenters might have thought.

Could I steal a little bit of your new thread by asking - do electric cars pay road user charges? :scratch:

Yes they do.


Did they say anything about the future of trades ? Unless all houses for example are factory made and identical, there's still a need for plumbers and sparky's as just two examples....

I thought about that one too, suspect as they can now print out houses, they can make the electrics and plumbing robot friendly too. They showed these Army Dogs that were robots, could carry lots, run faster than men for up to 40 hours too.


It may not affect me but I do have concerns. Somebody has to come up with an idea about how the people who lose their jobs will live. At the moment the plan seems to be for the "haves" to surround their homes with walls patrolled by armed guards. Don't laugh. After hurricane Katrina in the USA one gated community was protected by Israeli mercenaries armed with automatic weapons.

The only plan in evidence in the UK seems to be to abuse the uneployed and cut their benefits. And Britain is about to lose a lot more jobs to Europe.

In Godzone apathy rules, we'll be OK for a while, but...

Unless you plan on being deceased it will affect you...robot looking after you in home.

They also showed a robot machine gun that did not miss and a recovery one that was bullet resistant.


Aye. Work Life Balance. :facepalm:

Compared to a generation ago it's already well past 30%, and I see a lot of people complaining that all this automation is taking jobs. Most of those jobs were increasingly difficult to get people to do though. See: Work Life Balance.

You might not find a job filling cartons with widgets any more but it's not real hard, you just have to find something to do that someone's willing to pay for. More work: More pay.

Now THAT'S how Work Life Balance really works. :laugh:

Seems they want to raise the minimum wage from $7.50 to $15, robots work 24/7 and don't need money.

[Brian d marge]

Mashie ... Front and center

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[Brian d marge]

This thread is promising to be gold ......

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[Ocean1]

It may not affect me but I do have concerns. Somebody has to come up with an idea about how the people who lose their jobs will live. At the moment the plan seems to be for the "haves" to surround their homes with walls patrolled by armed guards. Don't laugh. After hurricane Katrina in the USA one gated community was protected by Israeli mercenaries armed with automatic weapons.

The only plan in evidence in the UK seems to be to abuse the uneployed and cut their benefits. And Britain is about to lose a lot more jobs to Europe.

In Godzone apathy rules, we'll be OK for a while, but...

It's hardly a new phenomenon mate. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone working as a weaver, but there's a hell of a lot of jobs available now that weren't a century ago, and most of them don't knock a decade off your lifespan.

[Brian d marge]

Did they say anything about the future of trades ? Unless all houses for example are factory made and identical, there's still a need for plumbers and sparky's as just two examples....
Have a look a 3d printed houses , I'm not sure of the details but I'm kinda guessing the electrical and plumbing will be formulated , as our house here was , it's an all wooden house but mass produced , you get to choose the look , ( 1950 state homes hahaha)
So all u would need it a trained chimpanzee, to install water and Sparks


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[pritch]

It's hardly a new phenomenon mate. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone working as a weaver, but there's a hell of a lot of jobs available now that weren't a century ago, and most of them don't knock a decade off your lifespan.

If I had a kid I'd advise them to learn how to write code.

Leaving aside porters, weavers, thatchers, miners, tanners, fletchers and other olde worlde jobs for now...

Before I retired I was looking at some old files, many of the jobs that were available in the early 70s when there was full employment are just not there anymore. Freezing works, car assembly plants, woollen mills, the toll room, most of the retail jobs in town are gone. Many of the people that might have done them aren't doing something else, they are on the dole. And so in some cases are their kids.

I note that in the US, experts keep saying Trump is mistaken in thinking that all of the lost jobs there went overseas. Increasing numbers are being lost to automation.

The agrarian sector is not immune. For some time now dairy farm herd sizes have reportedly been at about the upper limit of what a couple can handle. The concern was that corporate farming would take over and that is now rearing its head. There will be a lot less farms with a lot less jobs and the jobs will not all be hugely fulfilling.

We need to come up with a better way to use the people that aren't working and another way for solo mums to improve their situation without having another kid.

[mashman]

Mashie ... Front and center

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ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... tech unemployment can be mitigated, but not "solved". 7000 accountancy and invoicing positions being replaced by automation at Walmart. That's one company. Mucho mula for the tax collectors.

Bill Gates and his taxing robots is worth the lulz should ye wish a look see.

Tesla predicting that govts will be forced to turn to UBI is another that's worth the lulz.

Millennials v's Baby Boomers. Divide and conquer buzz words for plebs.

Much better to pay the people who used to do the jobs the money and let the merry go round continue i.e. the daily consumption of those individuals and the many economies that they support (something that's completely ignored coz narrative). And although that'd see Ocean having a conniption fit, it's by far the most sensible solution to prevent economic instability. Anyhoo, we should get used to losing Ocean's coz business knows nuttin when it comes to externalities coz so long as they pay for resources they believe that it's ok to carry on as usual despite over-consumption on a finite planet. Such myopia is to be expected given the confirmation bias that drives single cell thinkers.

[Voltaire]

Farming was mentioned, Monsanto I think he said can put nano computer chips in seeds and the seeds send back info so the

farmer can water, weed, weedkill etc.

He said " Once the Farmer sees how well this works they are hooked"......I got the impression this was seen as a good

thing:eek:

People probably fear AI and Robots after the many Hollywood movies they said, and drew a comparison between them and

Nuclear. In the 50's, 60's and 70's it was seen as potentially the end of the world and you heard things like " enough

weapons to destroy all life on planet", which they said was actually not true and other than a couple of oppsies nuclear power

has done a lot of good.

All this information was delivered as facts, and there was lots of ohhh and ahhhing.

Apparently the Google self drive car has done over a million miles and only one crash, and you can fit more on the road as

they have better reaction times.

Can't say I was too impressed after all this catching the train home and the fecking ticket machine working up to the

payment part then stopping....had to resort to talking to person behind counter. At least my Wife drive car was waiting to

pick me up at the other end :niceone:

[mashman]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand finally. Telling kids to learn how to write code :killingme. There are already all sorts of shite attempts at creating tools that BA's can use to generate code, but they do work(ish) and would certainly remove the need for yet more programmers. Also, programs are already being designed to recognise and use existing code to fulfill that which programs need, so it won't take too long for programs to write programs. Even if that adheres to the pareto principle, that's still a feckload less programmers required. Ya may as well lump DBA's and testers in that too. Le sigh. Tis a brave new world. Shame too many prefer the old one coz waaaaaaaa.

[Voltaire]

Not long to go now:


At the 2012 Singularity Summit, Stuart Armstrong did a study of artificial general intelligence (AGI) predictions by experts and found a wide range of predicted dates, with a median value of 2040.

22 years left until computers design computers that design computers and so on.

I should have my Norton sorted by then.....:innocent:

[Ocean1]

If I had a kid I'd advise them to learn how to write code.

Leaving aside porters, weavers, thatchers, miners, tanners, fletchers and other olde worlde jobs for now...

Before I retired I was looking at some old files, many of the jobs that were available in the early 70s when there was full employment are just not there anymore. Freezing works, car assembly plants, woollen mills, the toll room, most of the retail jobs in town are gone. Many of the people that might have done them aren't doing something else, they are on the dole. And so in some cases are their kids.

I note that in the US, experts keep saying Trump is mistaken in thinking that all of the lost jobs there went overseas. Increasing numbers are being lost to automation.

The agrarian sector is not immune. For some time now dairy farm herd sizes havereportedly been at about the upper limit of what a couple can handle. The concern was that corporate farming would take over and that is now rearing its head. There will be a lot less farms with a lot less jobs and the jobs will not all be hugely fulfilling.

We need to come up with a better way to use the people that aren't working and another way for solo mums to improve their situation without having another kid.

Most of us can come up with a plan that would likely result in reliable employment. Planned or otherwise most of us have actually managed the employment bit. Just telling those that don't manage that how to do so doesn't work.

You can call them unfortunate casualties of a modern world, but historically there's never been any shortage of un/underemployed. You can make work for them, but historic examples show that doesn't work either.

Maybe the massive advances in production through automation can allow us to pay for some growth in unemployment. But we already pay more unemployed far more than we've ever done before.

The fact is some people simply aren't motivated to achieve much until that behavior starts hurting, and the more you subsidise that behavior the more you get. Nobody hurts much nowadays.

[Brian d marge]

It may not affect me but I do have concerns. Somebody has to come up with an idea about how the people who lose their jobs will live. At the moment the plan seems to be for the "haves" to surround their homes with walls patrolled by armed guards. Don't laugh. After hurricane Katrina in the USA one gated community was protected by Israeli mercenaries armed with automatic weapons.

The only plan in evidence in the UK seems to be to abuse the uneployed and cut their benefits. And Britain is about to lose a lot more jobs to Europe.

In Godzone apathy rules, we'll be OK for a while, but...
I'm waaay ahead of you there, Remember , I live in Tokyo , and that kinda makes Auckland look like a quaint village. But I still have a garden , and does do ok for its size 10m x 4m , herbs , ( yes ,I've thought about that.) Flowers and spuds
Enough to see me in chip butties for the rest of the year
Beer, make me own, ( not so good at the wine or whiskey, but I can.)
The wife and kids can march all day on a bowl of rice , and they can to !
The Enfield runs on gasoline , not my preferred fuel but ..it's what I have
I have solar , but not installed yet , I'm lazy.
So it's getting to the point where the only actual paid work I need to do is for
You guessed it , the bank. And that's fk all a month. and taxes , this year is a byatch due to earning a lot last year. Next year will be next to nothing . .
Today I had a meeting with 3 older people , near the river ( arakawa ) there is some land free to use , the old fella just said use it ,so the plan is to grow Japanese " soul food" for us and any surplus goes to the cafe run by special needs kids ( and it's a damn fine cafe and all , puts many places to shame ...) and anything else left over is sold on internet.
So, this year , I should be working 4 hours a week ( thank you Honda for accepting my excessive hourly billing rate 😎) and the rest of the time , drinking me home brew in the allotment...
If all goes well
If it doesn't and the neocons get their way you will find me off grid ....83 km away from Tokyo , deep in the forest ,and I won't come out untill the war is over. Or until my commanding officer comes and gets me.
So in preparation I ,
Just bought a Colman off grid oven that works over a fire , it works a treat. Going to try a roast this Sunday, see how we go.....

I tried muffin , but that left a bad taste in me mouth.


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[Brian d marge]

Went to a Humanity and Machine Symposium today.

There were some good speakers, from Facebook to John Spence.

Seemed to think that Dairy, Tourism and Wine was not ever going to build a good economy and need to get a techy educated

population. NZ is too far away but suited an on-line economy.

One of the speakers who I gather probably did all right in the tech world said he had sold everything, lived using Uber, Air B

and B, some on line credit bitcoin app and Facebook.

They say 30% of jobs will be done by machines by 2025.

Example was self flying plane, robots unloading and drones delivering, you have probably seen the burger flipper robot, and a

lot of driving jobs.

I do wonder with the reduced tax base who will actually be buying all the stuff that robots can then do?

Will robots pay tax?

Millennials will probably be calling more of the shots with not wanting to do what boring old Baby Boomers did....they want

'meaningful jobs", " work life balance" ," Nice Work Spaces" and so on.....:facepalm:

The Tesla they had on display interested me until I asked the only important question I ever ask about cars....how much?

$180 000.00...... could be a while till it drops to my 10 years and $10K A to B car purchase price limit.

The Pinot Gris and Asian/Italian Fusion food was quite nice
Btw , it's called agenda 2036. And transhumanism , it's all part of the plan
If you want the document trail, I'll provide quite happily.
The only thing that ain't going to plan: is that the damn people keep talking about it and are getting more and more " onto " the game that is afoot.
Bloody peasants. And their internet.

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[Akzle]

Just bought a Colman off grid oven that works over a fire , it works a treat. Going to try a roast this Sunday, see how we go.....

I tried muffin , but that left a bad taste in me mouth.


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is it a dutch oven? i have a fokken sikk shake n bake upside down choccy cake recipe for em.
legendary when you bust it out 4 days into the boosh.

[Akzle]

Just bought a Colman off grid oven that works over a fire , it works a treat. Going to try a roast this Sunday, see how we go.....

I tried muffin , but that left a bad taste in me mouth.


Sent from my BGO-DL09 using Tapatalk

is it a dutch oven? i have a fokken sikk shake n bake upside down choccy cake recipe for em.
legendary when you bust it out 4 days into the boosh.

[Ocean1]

Can't say I was too impressed after all this catching the train home and the fecking ticket machine working up to the

payment part then stopping..

:laugh: Aye, anything that saves a metric shitload of human effort fucks up in metric shitloads also.

[Katman]

More work: More pay.

Now THAT'S how Work Life Balance really works.

And with any luck you'll work yourself to an early grave.

[Ocean1]

And with any luck you'll work yourself to an early grave.

Only a fuckwit relies on luck, I work exactly as hard as I need to to earn the income I want.

Any alternative behaviour is simply dishonest.

Also: Fuck you too.

[jonbuoy]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand finally. Telling kids to learn how to write code :killingme. There are already all sorts of shite attempts at creating tools that BA's can use to generate code, but they do work(ish) and would certainly remove the need for yet more programmers. Also, programs are already being designed to recognise and use existing code to fulfill that which programs need, so it won't take too long for programs to write programs. Even if that adheres to the pareto principle, that's still a feckload less programmers required. Ya may as well lump DBA's and testers in that too. Le sigh. Tis a brave new world. Shame too many prefer the old one coz waaaaaaaa.

I taught myself to programme with Arduino - which is really aimed at education and it's helped me immensely at work. Not to mention produce quite a few useful gadgets for myself. Even if you don't write the code for equipment your working on it gives you a great insight into whats going on behind the scenes. I can't remember the last time I had to actually write a letter in cursive or tell a fairytale story from the bible.

[Dadpole]

Not long to go now:

22 years left until computers design computers that design computers and so on.
I should have my Norton sorted by then.....:innocent:

I love the sheer, unbounded optimism John.

[oldrider]

At least my Wife drive car was waiting to pick me up at the other end :niceone:

Most encouraging sentence in thread so far - automation is one step too far here! :mellow:

[old slider]

is it a dutch oven? i have a fokken sikk shake n bake upside down choccy cake recipe for em.
legendary when you bust it out 4 days into the boosh.


Share the recipe Akzle, my Billy bread sucks, to be honest you also have to suck the bread, it quickly turns into stone once it starts to cool. lol

[Brian d marge]

Share the recipe Akzle, my Billy bread sucks, to be honest you also have to suck the bread, it quickly turns into stone once it starts to cool. lol
4, 3, 2, 1, 1/4
4 tablespoons of olive oil
3 cups of strong flour
2, tablespoons sugar
1 teaspoon yeast
1/4 teaspoon salt ( some like 1/2)

Mix , add milk or water until plyable bread dough

Dry stones in the bottom of Billy can, then baking paper or flax leaves , pine needles , seaweed or whatever , low embers, coals on the lid
Not to hot ,
If u get near an oven, a tray of water under the bread will give it a lighter fluffier texture

Sorry it's cheese spinach curry ,with dried chicken and spuds , on rice

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170519/efbeb97b66f269721fe286011c6141fd.jpg

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[mashman]

I taught myself to programme with Arduino - which is really aimed at education and it's helped me immensely at work. Not to mention produce quite a few useful gadgets for myself. Even if you don't write the code for equipment your working on it gives you a great insight into whats going on behind the scenes. I can't remember the last time I had to actually write a letter in cursive or tell a fairytale story from the bible.

Every programmer teaches themselves to program ;). Yeah, I've seen some cool fun stuff created with Arduino and Raspberry Pi and it does look fun. I guess it'd be great if kids, bigguns included, could choose what they wanted to learn. Heh... I sometimes have to scribble the kids a note for school, which is a chore given that I get writers cramp penning ma signature :laugh:

[Brian d marge]

In my day we had ceefax until 4 then I could change channels

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[geoffm]

The problem with IT as a career is that you need to be a mathmatical wizard to get to the top in it and not everyone is that way inclined. Skills learnt can date very quickly in that industry too.

And more to the point, it will be done in Vietnam, Phillipines or India. Since there is no physical product, it can and is being offshored to a cheaper location. What makes you think it will be done here, and if it is, then a skilled immigrant visa and an Indian to go... already happens in the US with the H1b visas, that exploit immigrants who can't complain as they are booted out.
Still need a physical body to fix your toilet though, 3D printed or not.

[jonbuoy]

Or mother Russia. But if you come up with an idea and make it happen yourself more power to you. Good tradesmen will always do well, still a niche market out there for very good fitters, cabinet makers, welders, mechanics, electricians but you need to ambitious and be at the top of your game to make good money. I took a pay drop from working in a supermarket to start my apprentiship and my wages were outstripped by most of my friends and siblings for a long time. Now I've overtaken all of them.

[shrub]

have never had a problem getting work. I can turn my hand to most things, I'm confident, intelligent, well educated and don't have any physical limitations, but right now I'm unemployed, and have been for all of this year. The last job I had was as a motorcycle postie for NZ Post, working 6 days a week for $17.00 an hour and I deeply regret leaving that last year, but it was only supposed to be a stop-gap measure.

Since then I've applied for 40 jobs, and every time I've spent a lot of time finding out about the company, tailoring my CV and cover letter plus doing stuff like phoning to ask a couple of questions so they're more likely to remember me. I'm only applying for jobs that I'm qualified and have appropriate skills and experience, yet after all those applications I'm still looking.

It's not that I'm unqualified either, I have 3 university degrees, including a Masters in Commerce and Management, as well as 30+ years work experience, ranging from being a CEO to a sales rep and even a bouncer. The problem is, I'm 57. I've been doing some research, and my experiences are pretty common, because some employers aren't interested in old farts like me because they think I'm too old and out of touch with current trends etc., and that I won't "fit" their company culture because I'm bald with a goatee, not a hipster beard. Or they see me as a threat because I'm older, know more, more experienced and (usually) better qualified than they are.

I'll get a job, but the odds are good that it will be lower paid and of a lower status than what I used to do, yet I'm way more qualified than I used to be. And that's the future of work.

[Ocean1]

I'll get a job, but the odds are good that it will be lower paid and of a lower status than what I used to do, yet I'm way more qualified than I used to be. And that's the future of work.

For years I've hired part timers, as required, mostly specialists either retired or close to it. It got to the point where we have a reputation for it, old bastards that dress funny but get the job done, often when others have already failed to get it quite right.

As a business model I love the idea, partly because of exactly the trouble you find yourself in, but also because I see a hard connect between the advanced experience these guys bring to their specialties and the flexibility they want in easing into retirement or funding the stuff their pensions won't stretch to.

But here's the thing: Pretty much all of the business regulatory set makes such an unusual arrangement very difficult. So they're all subcontractors, legally so, I won't hire them as employees.

If someone gets all heavy handed about that then I'll simply close the door, it's hard enough dealing with compliance issues surrounding employees already.

In your copious spare time why don't you think about starting up something of a similar, more formal, more southerly enterprise?

[shrub]

I hadn't thought of that. I'm currently waiting to find out about 2 interviews I've had in the last week, but if there's no go I'll investigate further.

[seattle smitty]

A friend of mine is a high school teacher, and I have suggested that he assign his students to read and report on the excellent recent book, "Rise of the Robots" by Martin Ford, c. 2015, a survey of all of the latest human-substitute technologies as they are appearing in a great many professions and trades. Ford refers to the common assertion that technical revolutions end up producing more jobs than they eliminate, but makes a detailed case why this time its different. Anyone interested in the subject should read it. Then (as I also advised my teacher friend) read the June 4, 2015 review in Forbes magazine by a contributor, Steve Demming, who disagrees completely with Ford's conclusions. I found Demming's arguments cogent but not fully persuasive. I'm an old man so none of this is critical for me, but any young person should think hard about this stuff, because the changes are coming faster than even experts in the field were predicting only a few years ago.

[mada]

Can see big problems for our economy when lab's start busting out cheap meat and primary produce alternatives....

GE food research is something we should be doing here to future proof ourselves... regardless of what Greens say

[TheDemonLord]

The problem with IT as a career is that you need to be a mathmatical wizard to get to the top in it and not everyone is that way inclined. Skills learnt can date very quickly in that industry too.

I like Maths (I really do)

But to say you need to be a Mathematical Wizard?

Is there no end to your ignorant stupidity?

[Voltaire]

Can see big problems for our economy when lab's start busting out cheap meat and primary produce alternatives....

GE food research is something we should be doing here to future proof ourselves... regardless of what Greens say

Yep, let Monsanto sell Terminator Seeds to the farmers so that each year they have to buy from Monsanto, and the latest idea

they have of putting a chip in seeds that tell the farmer its needs for water and so on.

Roundup may have long term issues.

I was told by a guy who lived in Nelson that Agent Orange was made there.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/environmentsci/mapua-residents-tested-for-dioxins-2011092815

[Akzle]

?

Is there no end to your ignorant stupidity?

on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being "no there isn't" and 10 being "42",

that nigger turns it up to 11.

[TheDemonLord]

on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being "no there isn't" and 10 being "42",

that nigger turns it up to 11.

$cassina = get-attribute | where{$_.name -eq "stupidity"}
$cassina

#Err: IndexOutOfRangeException

[jonbuoy]

have never had a problem getting work. I can turn my hand to most things, I'm confident, intelligent, well educated and don't have any physical limitations, but right now I'm unemployed, and have been for all of this year. The last job I had was as a motorcycle postie for NZ Post, working 6 days a week for $17.00 an hour and I deeply regret leaving that last year, but it was only supposed to be a stop-gap measure.

Since then I've applied for 40 jobs, and every time I've spent a lot of time finding out about the company, tailoring my CV and cover letter plus doing stuff like phoning to ask a couple of questions so they're more likely to remember me. I'm only applying for jobs that I'm qualified and have appropriate skills and experience, yet after all those applications I'm still looking.

It's not that I'm unqualified either, I have 3 university degrees, including a Masters in Commerce and Management, as well as 30+ years work experience, ranging from being a CEO to a sales rep and even a bouncer. The problem is, I'm 57. I've been doing some research, and my experiences are pretty common, because some employers aren't interested in old farts like me because they think I'm too old and out of touch with current trends etc., and that I won't "fit" their company culture because I'm bald with a goatee, not a hipster beard. Or they see me as a threat because I'm older, know more, more experienced and (usually) better qualified than they are.

I'll get a job, but the odds are good that it will be lower paid and of a lower status than what I used to do, yet I'm way more qualified than I used to be. And that's the future of work.

That's one of my worries too, the industry I'm in your "old" at 50, I'm still taking courses and trying to upskill, keep fit and not turn into a grumpy old man set in their ways and not open to change in the hope that will keep me "employable".

[Voltaire]

That's one of my worries too, the industry I'm in your "old" at 50, I'm still taking courses and trying to upskill, keep fit and not turn into a grumpy old man set in their ways and not open to change in the hope that will keep me "employable".

If your job can be done on a laptop from home it can be done from india.

People skills cannot be done ether remotely or by a robot.

I'm 56 and R2D2 and C3Pio are not nipping at my heals just yet.

A suit and good haircut help....its selling out but pays better than the dole of pension.

[Motu]

When I got to my mid 50's I found it difficult to get a job, they wanted young faces, not old faces. However, since I turned really old a few years ago, I've walked in and out of 4 jobs. I find I'm working with older people these days, the young ones just don't seem cut out for working for a living. Old dogs learning new tricks, that's the way you do it.

Had someone in for work experience yesterday...she's got 3 kids. She'll do it, a teenager we'd never see again.

[seattle smitty]

Maybe people need to start thinking about this before having kids in the first place that their kids will likely face unemployment/poverty/homelessness unlike any generation before. Its already started with homes being no longer affordable for most young people and payrates for many are poor. There is a saying that NZ has the highest qualified burger flippers in the world due to there no longer being the number of career opportunities for graduates there used to be.

Some who write on this subject try to comfort us with the reasonable-sounding assertion that at least there will always be a need for humans to do repair work, plumbing, and so forth. Well maybe, but in the States, professional welders' websites I visit have been noting that for some years now we have been told that there is and will continue to be a shortage of welders, and that not enough young guys are being trained, etc., etc., . . . but we also see that welding pay rates have not gone up at all.

[Ocean1]

Some who write on this subject try to comfort us with the reasonable-sounding assertion that at least there will always be a need for humans to do repair work, plumbing, and so forth. Well maybe, but in the States, professional welders' websites I visit have been noting that for some years now we have been told that there is and will continue to be a shortage of welders, and that not enough young guys are being trained, etc., etc., . . . but we also see that welding pay rates have not gone up at all.

Maybe there's just a lag between the scarcity and the price?

We saw a similar thing here when the local govt agencies, (ministry of works, railways, electricity depts) stopped training apprentices. They'd noticed that the wee bastards all buggered off for better money or an overseas trip as soon as they were out of their time, so the thought was that if private enterprise needed them then they could bear the cost of training them.

Didn't happen. For the better part of two decades there were far fewer new tradesmen made in NZ. Eventually the shortage became obvious and more than a little crippling and private enterprise got together with a few other regional commercial entities to spread the cost around some and started training more. The result of all of the above was generation long holes in several national skill sets across the whole nation.

I don't think it's quite that simple, there was always some cultural disincentive associated with the trades, something you encouraged someone to get into if they'd failed at school or obviously weren't going to make anything better of their lives. Maybe that perception contributed to the generally low price for tradesmen, then and now, regardless of commercial value. And I can't really complain, as one of the last of the govt trained apprentices I've had some minor advantages later in life from that shortage of senior techies.

Nonetheless, you're right, when it comes to plain, unattractive labour skills it seems scarcity doesn't dictate price as much as it does at a more esoteric, "professional" level. And now that I think about it the public funding of tertiary education may have had an influence on the choice between an apprenticeship and a BA. Probably still does.

[Voltaire]

I was the second to last year of Post Office Apprentices and even as a tradesman earned less than office workers of the time.

I buggered off overseas to AU and straight off the plane got paid 40% more and a couple of years later landed in the UK and

slotted into Thatchers Britain by becoming semi self employed as a contractor.

Trades were viewed as something you did if you were not smart enough to go to uni, I liked woodwork and metalwork at

school but the Secondary School I went to after Intermediate was academic focused.

One thing I have noticed is that the ticketed trades like electrical and plumbing pay better than the ones that require no ticket

and you don't end up with a student loan.

I suspect a lot of the so called Degrees on offer are more focused around the suppliers of them than the student.

[Brian d marge]

I'm too good looking to work

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[swarfie]

I started my apprenticeship in '77 and was one of 7 apprentices taken on by the company. The company took on loads of apprentices every year for a few years then it started to dwindle. Since the late 80's every year the number of apprentices has reduced, to the stage where the last one we took on was 7 years ago (and he's left for greener fields) and it doesn't look like we'll be replacing him any time soon. The one before him is still here and is probably about 7 years out of his time now.

My point is that even social minded companies that used to supply trades-people to the entire industry in NZ (and for the most part, overseas) don't anymore. It grinds me a bit to hear the politicians waffling on about the need for more trades-people when they are the ones who, by mismanaging the apprenticeship schemes, shagged the system in the first place.

I left for a bit over a year 18 months after my apprenticeship finished and came back and have been back for 35 years...unheard of in todays climate, and I have nearly 40 years service with the same place. I'm 58 and still enjoy the job (must be okay at it as the company hasn't made me redundant...yet). It's comfortable but I'm never going to get rich being a tradee and working for someone else...or while the guvinmunt sees fit to tax me like they do and give it to some lazy phuck.

[Akzle]

I started my apprenticeship in '77 and was one of 7 apprentices taken on by the company. The company took on loads of apprentices every year for a few years then it started to dwindle. Since the late 80's every year the number of apprentices has reduced, to the stage where the last one we took on was 7 years ago (and he's left for greener fields) and it doesn't look like we'll be replacing him any time soon. The one before him is still here and is probably about 7 years out of his time now.

My point is that even social minded companies that used to supply trades-people to the entire industry in NZ (and for the most part, overseas) don't anymore. It grinds me a bit to hear the politicians waffling on about the need for more trades-people when they are the ones who, by mismanaging the apprenticeship schemes, shagged the system in the first place.

I left for a bit over a year 18 months after my apprenticeship finished and came back and have been back for 35 years...unheard of in todays climate, and I have nearly 40 years service with the same place. I'm 58 and still enjoy the job (must be okay at it as the company hasn't made me redundant...yet). It's comfortable but I'm never going to get rich being a tradee and working for someone else...or while the guvinmunt sees fit to tax me like they do and give it to some lazy phuck.

you seem to moan about the government a lot. you should vote about it.

[swarfie]

you seem to moan about the government a lot. you should vote about it.

Hook, line and sinker...if the glove fits...

[Motu]

I left my job 3 months out of my time and before I was qualified, ended up going back to work for him 4 or 5 times, I can't even remember, ended up 10 years later in charge of the place. I never asked for my job back, it was always offered - ''Hey, we're a bit snowed under, can you give us a few days to clear it ?''....''**** is having 3 weeks off, can you cover for him?'' A year later I'd leave again. It's the 3rd time I've worked for my current employeer...asked back every time.

We have 3 tradesmen and 2 apprentices, and now a work experience once a week. Can't say we don't train the next lot.

[Ocean1]

We have 3 tradesmen and 2 apprentices, and now a work experience once a week. Can't say we don't train the next lot.

Are we still allowed to chuck them in the creek for insubordination?

Or breathing?

[Motu]

They have both lost their license in the past, and got work licenses. The reason I left my job the first time was because I lost my license...stuff walking to work and working on cars without being able to thrash the shit out of them.

[Zedder]

The fourth industrial revolution:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11863989

[Brian d marge]

The fourth industrial revolution:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11863989
Andrew little throwing that term around , straight out of America that one. last time it was user pays and Soe, and look at the mess that made

[mashman]

Andrew little throwing that term around , straight out of America that one. last time it was user pays and Soe, and look at the mess that made

Jobs sells.

[Gremlin]

The problem with IT as a career is that you need to be a mathmatical wizard to get to the top in it and not everyone is that way inclined. Skills learnt can date very quickly in that industry too.
Well I'm not at the top yet, but calculus makes no sense whatsoever to me. Doesn't stop me from managing client networks...


And more to the point, it will be done in Vietnam, Phillipines or India. Since there is no physical product, it can and is being offshored to a cheaper location. What makes you think it will be done here, and if it is, then a skilled immigrant visa and an Indian to go...

Yes and no. Having just been dealing with HPE in India, 90% of their calls didn't get through to me, shit service. Bounced around through loops of questions, and the server with issues had had almost every component replaced. They were gearing up to replace a core component, until I tried a service pack for it, and it *touch wood* seems to have fixed it after a few days of reliability. They would have kept replacing components, or the entire server simply because the system wasn't stable nor could they diagnose from the logs.

But... pay peanuts... get monkeys.

[Voltaire]

I hate when my PC at works has issues as means " Raising a Ticket" and dealing with India.
Encourages me to try and fix it myself which involved drawing on others experience.... quote social really and time wasting....or as I see it networking and leveraging internal capabilities :rolleyes:

As they have got rid of the IT department the next one will be 'self build' where it arrives in a box and you have to set it up yourself dealing with India.
From what I have seen of that can take days and you can involve all you workmates.

[Ocean1]

I hate when my PC at works has issues as means " Raising a Ticket" and dealing with India.
Encourages me to try and fix it myself which involved drawing on others experience.... quote social really and time wasting....or as I see it networking and leveraging internal capabilities :rolleyes:

As they have got rid of the IT department the next one will be 'self build' where it arrives in a box and you have to set it up yourself dealing with India.
From what I have seen of that can take days and you can involve all you workmates.

Pretty sure that would encourage me to consider the boss was failing to supply me with the tools required to do my job.

And it's not my job to deal with an Indian IT "service" supplier. Or in fact most of the many IT "service" suppliers I've ever had to deal with.

Comes under article 2.3 in my "No Arseholes" policy.

[nerrrd]

Isn't AI going to be the real kicker? That'll mop up all the coding / support / service jobs that the several billion of us with our somewhat limited biological intelligence might otherwise be doing.

Then what? I think even some of the top human brains out there are a little concerned about what happens when AI is smarter than we are.

I did hear someone suggest that governments might have to tax automation/AI to finance a universal income.

[oldrider]

Isn't AI going to be the real kicker? That'll mop up all the coding / support / service jobs that the several billion of us with our somewhat limited biological intelligence might otherwise be doing.

Then what? I think even some of the top human brains out there are a little concerned about what happens when AI is smarter than we are.

I did hear someone suggest that governments might have to tax automation/AI to finance a universal income.

:scratch: - always thought government was AI? - :whistle:

[Akzle]

:scratch: - always thought government was AI? - :whistle:

artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity :whistle:

[Voltaire]

Pretty sure that would encourage me to consider the boss was failing to supply me with the tools required to do my job.

And it's not my job to deal with an Indian IT "service" supplier. Or in fact most of the many IT "service" suppliers I've ever had to deal with.

Comes under article 2.3 in my "No Arseholes" policy.

I think taking that view would see my " Resource Actioned" fairly smartly being a contractor and all....

[Gremlin]

Encourages me to try and fix it myself which involved drawing on others experience.... quote social really and time wasting....or as I see it networking and leveraging internal capabilities :rolleyes:
Haha, must remember that network and leveraging internal capabilities ;) The only problem with trying to fix it yourself, is we have one client that builds circuit boards and security systems and tests intrusion detection etc. Highly capable and boss is honest. He charges out his staff for more than he contracts us, so why would he get his staff to fix their own issues? Only problem is sometimes they do try, and instead of a simple fix, I have to unravel all the attempts, then fix the original problem :scratch: I'm sure mechanics get that as well...


artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity :whistle:
Had a client staff member during the week, despite full support from us, get a call from Microsoft and they tried to let them into their system (coz, like, that scam hasn't been around for years). Doesn't matter how secure you make something... humans will try to break it :oi-grr:

[Ocean1]

I think taking that view would see my " Resource Actioned" fairly smartly being a contractor and all....

In which case you're wasting everyone's time there, go find something worthwhile to do with your time.

"If you pit a good performer against a bad system, the system will win every time." W E Deming.

https://blog.deming.org/2015/02/a-bad-system-will-beat-a-good-person-every-time/

[Akzle]

..). Doesn't matter how secure you make something... humans will try to break it :oi-grr:

yet to find the keyboard jockey that's committed enough to punch shit into a terminal.

[Brian d marge]

yet to find the keyboard jockey that's committed enough to punch shit into a terminal.
https://youtu.be/S0sYriIsvr4

Issues with technology..

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[Zedder]

Doesn't matter how secure you make something... humans will try to break it :oi-grr:


Apparently Vodafone and Spark have recently admitted to having "back doors" into their modems and reckon they're a huge benefit to their customers.

[Voltaire]

In which case you're wasting everyone's time there, go find something worthwhile to do with your time.

"If you pit a good performer against a bad system, the system will win every time." W E Deming.

https://blog.deming.org/2015/02/a-bad-system-will-beat-a-good-person-every-time/

Worthwhile .... I'll have to Google that.

[Gremlin]

Apparently Vodafone and Spark have recently admitted to having "back doors" into their modems and reckon they're a huge benefit to their customers.
Saw that earlier today. I've never used ISP modems, now it might be a solid reason why you replace/refuse them. I do remember Orcon having remote access to a clients modem years ago, but it was easy to block, and I did it as a matter of course, then they suddenly couldn't troubleshoot something, so re-enabled it temporarily. Not the same as a built in back door like that story.

It's not like the majority of ISP modems are any good anyway.

[Swoop]

We saw a similar thing here when the local govt agencies, (ministry of works, railways, electricity depts) stopped training apprentices. They'd noticed that the wee bastards all buggered off for better money or an overseas trip as soon as they were out of their time, so the thought was that if private enterprise needed them then they could bear the cost of training them.

Didn't happen. For the better part of two decades there were far fewer new tradesmen made in NZ.

A two pronged approach eventuated, with "government apprentices" basically phased out and industry refusing to train new lads. Companies were fully prepared to go head-hunting to find people (then pay more to attract them) instead of growing their own people.

The second problem was (still is) the "careers advisers" in schools.
Apart from having zero clues about employment opportunities, they were drawn from the academic world and simply regurgitated the "you must go to university" approach. This does not suit all students and a heck of a lot thrive in a vocational environment / want to produce things with their hands / don't want a student debt.

[Brian d marge]

A two pronged approach eventuated, with "government apprentices" basically phased out and industry refusing to train new lads. Companies were fully prepared to go head-hunting to find people (then pay more to attract them) instead of growing their own people.

The second problem was (still is) the "careers advisers" in schools.
Apart from having zero clues about employment opportunities, they were drawn from the academic world and simply regurgitated the "you must go to university" approach. This does not suit all students and a heck of a lot thrive in a vocational environment / want to produce things with their hands / don't want a student debt.
Got to have a student debt. It's the American way...

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[Ocean1]

The second problem was (still is) the "careers advisers" in schools.

I can fix that.

[caspernz]

A two pronged approach eventuated, with "government apprentices" basically phased out and industry refusing to train new lads. Companies were fully prepared to go head-hunting to find people (then pay more to attract them) instead of growing their own people.

The second problem was (still is) the "careers advisers" in schools.
Apart from having zero clues about employment opportunities, they were drawn from the academic world and simply regurgitated the "you must go to university" approach. This does not suit all students and a heck of a lot thrive in a vocational environment / want to produce things with their hands / don't want a student debt.

That sounds like a familiar story. Sad part is it keeps repeating itself across many vocations, for various reasons. Talking with a chap today who took part in a careers day in a specialist vocation recently. Yes there's good money at the elite end in this vocation, problem is the cost of training is crippling and the percentage of students who make it to the elite end is small, thus a good number end up with a student debt with no short term possibility of paying it back. This then leads to them either changing vocation or disappearing overseas.

The apprenticeship approach definitely paid dividends, but hey that's hindsight...

[Brian d marge]

Just on an interesting note , the " original " meaning or version of " slave" was an indentured apprentice. I.e you were bound to a teacher until you went out on ur own...

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[caspernz]

Just on an interesting note , the " original " meaning or version of " slave" was an indentured apprentice. I.e you were bound to a teacher until you went out on ur own...

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So in some ways nothing has changed aye? Slave to a teacher/master or slave to a student debt...

[Brian d marge]

i don't think that we should worry so much about the future of work
I'm going on the dole so that the oldies can keep me in a lifestyle I'm accustomed to ...



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[Voltaire]

i don't think that we should worry so much about the future of work

Not worried but forewarned is fore armed so to speak.

Farrier in 1905 " Arh.....them there automobiles will never take the place of horses"

Typist in about 1980 " But who would do the Bosses typing"

Motor Mechanic 2017 " electric cars....they are years away":eek:

Royal Enfield Buyer " Indian quality is just as good as 1950's UK"

[oldrider]

Not worried but forewarned is fore armed so to speak.

Farrier in 1905 " Arh.....them there automobiles will never take the place of horses"

Typist in about 1980 " But who would do the Bosses typing"

Motor Mechanic 2017 " electric cars....they are years away":eek:

Royal Enfield Buyer " Indian quality is just as good as 1950's UK"

Like following 1984 how the incumbent staff operating ECNZ power stations said that they could never remote control their power and sub Stations! :no:

Goodbye work and lifestyle hello redundancy and/or dole! :shit:

One of the most amazing and busiest pieces of labour saving technology (IMHO) is the common household washing machine - after that nothing is impossible! :sunny:

That development was responsible for releasing women to show men how to run the world! :doh:

[Brian d marge]

Not worried but forewarned is fore armed so to speak.

Farrier in 1905 " Arh.....them there automobiles will never take the place of horses"

Typist in about 1980 " But who would do the Bosses typing"

Motor Mechanic 2017 " electric cars....they are years away":eek:

Royal Enfield Buyer " Indian quality is just as good as 1950's UK"

Please contact my lawyers before using one of my truths :bleh: