Franchise Building Company Debate

[russd7]

*friends don't let friends build with GJ Gardner

curious as to why? our son is building with them at the moment, PM me if it you like

[YellowDog]

curious as to why? our son is building with them at the moment, PM me if it you like

Honest truly, they are much of a muchness and it is down to the firm they pass the contract to, which varies hugely from area to area.

I'm just helping someone out of a Jennian Homes screw up, and they are supposed to be the good guys. The outfit they passed the work on to, went bust, as often happens when you bid too low for the work. Now the new firm, wants more and more money and don't seem to be familiar with the term "Fixed Price Contract", as per the signed agreement :lol:

OOPS: Off Topic :bleh:

[neels]

*friends don't let friends build with GJ Gardner
Or any other franchise building company.

All you get is a generic plan, but without the economies of scale you would expect, and a fucking useless project manager managing what any competent builder would manage themselves.

Also, competent builders will avoid working for franchise building companies, employ one of them to build your house and cut out the parasites.

[Akzle]

Or any other franchise building company.

All you get is a generic plan, but without the economies of scale you would expect, and a fucking useless project manager managing what any competent builder would manage themselves.

Also, competent builders will avoid working for franchise building companies, employ one of them to build your house and cut out the parasites.

you can be my minister of building and tomfoolery

[Akzle]

curious as to why? our son is building with them at the moment, PM me if it you like

they're uteless sacks of shit and as young nelly said, any builder worth their salt will handle 110% of the shit for only 120% the cost.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Or any other franchise building company.

All you get is a generic plan, but without the economies of scale you would expect, and a fucking useless project manager managing what any competent builder would manage themselves.

Also, competent builders will avoid working for franchise building companies, employ one of them to build your house and cut out the parasites.

Agree. Because those fucking simpering fucking GJ's ads make me retch every time I see one. Here's the thing: that is what gets the punters in the door. They're sold on the "GJ's difference". Which is nice when its going right. When it doesnt go right GJ's not only will refuse to assist, they will actively take steps to ensure the building client gets fucked. DAMHIK. Their contract (at 8.3 in the last iteration I read) specifically says something like "Yeah, so, this is a contract between "A generic building company limited" holder of the local franchise, and you. you have no relationship with, or any remedy against the master franchisor. Up to and including criminal negligence by the (inevitably) now ex-franchisee. "Oh that guy, yeah he used to work for us but left, went to Brisbane I think."

The best you can hope for is the MB or CB completion bond guarantee. I have had a good result this year for one that went to shit in Dec 15 95% completed. That wasn't a franchise builder and thank fuck they were MB members because MB stepped in, finished the house and got Code Compliance for it... which was difficult because as inevitably happens the poor old subbies got fucked and with held their PS3s - client was so distraught by the whole process they havent moved into their dream house... they are living in what was their rental and have tenants in.

[Honest Andy]

Well this is going well off topic... I feel like I'm standing at the leaners bar :corn:

I wouldn't use a generic house building company.
Gj are only one of a number of housing outfits who all use great ads to sell shit boxes, and make their money by using cheap materials and by screwing down the subbies. Jennian, Stonewood, Golden, etc etc. I have worked on a couple of these houses and it's every contractor for himself, no cooperation. Everyone is so screwed down on price you just can't afford to take extra time to do a better job or help out anyone else. So when something doesn't go quite to plan or there is some small fuck up it just doesn't get fixed. I hate working on those jobs, they make good contractors mediocre and the mediocre contractors shit and the customer always ends up pissed off and suspicious and most importantly, reluctant to pay... Unlike on an ordinary job when the builder is choosing his own subbies because he knows they're good, paying them for results, and making sure problems are getting sorted out before they get noticed, ensuring a good result. And a happy customer who pays the bill. It costs more but it's worth it.

I have a customer who paid good money to the local GJ wankers and only got a slab and a mortgage before they went tits up. Had to work another two years and wait for property appreciation before he could borrow enough to keep building. This time he employed a single builder and worked as his labourer. Built the house to the same plan but used all his own favourite subbies and got a great result (apart from the completely unimaginative GJ generic plan) and the whole process gave him a huge sense of achievment.
So kind of a happy ending, if you don't count the huge loss loss of money...

[pritch]

Off topic but in a good way. If I was thinking of building a house that would be worth solid gold.

[Ocean1]

Off topic but in a good way. If I was thinking of building a house that would be worth solid gold.

If you was thinking of building a house you'd need your fucking head read.

Done it before, couldn't do it now, there'd be major civil unrest, the constabulary taking dim views and far too much shit of the type I'm seriously over at my delicately seasoned stage of life.

Seriously, when are people going to tumble that bitching about "they orta do something about" simple results in "them" doing shit nobody's prepared to pay for?

Has anyone actually added up the cost of materials and labour for a house build lately and compared that to the actual price paid for the finished product?

[HenryDorsetCase]

If you was thinking of building a house you'd need your fucking head read.

Done it before, couldn't do it now, there'd be major civil unrest, the constabulary taking dim views and far too much shit of the type I'm seriously over at my delicately seasoned stage of life.

Seriously, when are people going to tumble that bitching about "they orta do something about" simple results in "them" doing shit nobody's prepared to pay for?

Has anyone actually added up the cost of materials and labour for a house build lately and compared that to the actual price paid for the finished product?

then compared the cost of those materials to the SAME materials in, say, Straya and the US?

Mr Flying Crocodile (apart from some strange personal opinions) was a very informed commenter about building related matters on this site. Theres quite a long thread somewhere.

My brother (joiner) imported board direct from china at one point and even with the fuckery it was considerably cheaper than the same board sourced localy.

I think the "New Zealand margin" is around 25% from memory.

The other thing is that systems which are commonplace overseas are virtually unheard of here.

triple glazing and whatnot.

[Ocean1]

then compared the cost of those materials to the SAME materials in, say, Straya and the US?

Mr Flying Crocodile (apart from some strange personal opinions) was a very informed commenter about building related matters on this site. Theres quite a long thread somewhere.

My brother (joiner) imported board direct from china at one point and even with the fuckery it was considerably cheaper than the same board sourced localy.

I think the "New Zealand margin" is around 25% from memory.

The other thing is that systems which are commonplace overseas are virtually unheard of here.

triple glazing and whatnot.

Aye. We don't need to do that again. :laugh:

Still, glazing, excellent example. Here every single unit is custom made. It's a fucking joke, a highly specialised and automated manufactury with orders weeks long to make... a window. :laugh:

As opposed to the way the rest of the world does it: Here's the options and sizes available: ............ 1800 x 900 chartreuse powder finish alloy frame art #4.6, double wiggle-strip argon purged fade-in #2 grey tint with thermostatic vents? Sure, back the truck up right over here.

And no, it's not economies of scale, we could make windows half the price that way here.

[YellowDog]

Aye. We don't need to do that again. :laugh:

Still, glazing, excellent example. Here every single unit is custom made. It's a fucking joke, a highly specialised and automated manufactury with orders weeks long to make... a window. :laugh:

As opposed to the way the rest of the world does it: Here's the options and sizes available: ............ 1800 x 900 chartreuse powder finish alloy frame art #4.6, double wiggle-strip argon purged fade-in #2 grey tint with thermostatic vents? Sure, back the truck up right over here.

And no, it's not economies of scale, we could make windows half the price that way here.

2 POMs came here in the late 1990s to educate the Kiwis about double glazing. They went bust in less than 2 years. The idea of not having mould on ceillings and wind blowing through your hair, whilst the windows shut, hadn't yet caught on : lol:

In Europe, it is cheaper to replace your entire houses windows, with new ones, than it is to repaint them. The last time decided not to strip down and repaint the woodwork on my UK windows, it cost me less than $5,000, to remove the old wooden frames and replacement them double glazed ones.

The machines they use, are able to cut and shape any size window. That's what those POMs brought to NZ.

There's never an enterprising POM around when you need one, but then again, the NZ price fixers would have put them out of business anyway.

None of that high turnover low margin stuff, over here, thank you :shit:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I hate those house porn programs on TV but I watched the one of the VERY expensive queenstown house. They imported their windows from Chermany. Triple glazed with thermal breaks. Massively expensive.

They also imported wooden cladding from fucking Estonia.

[Maha]

Off topic but in a good way. If I was thinking of building a house that would be worth solid gold.

But would it meet with approval of the SCU?

[jasonu]

Aye. We don't need to do that again. :laugh:

Still, glazing, excellent example. Here every single unit is custom made. It's a fucking joke, a highly specialised and automated manufactury with orders weeks long to make... a window. :laugh:

As opposed to the way the rest of the world does it: Here's the options and sizes available: ............ 1800 x 900 chartreuse powder finish alloy frame art #4.6, double wiggle-strip argon purged fade-in #2 grey tint with thermostatic vents? Sure, back the truck up right over here.

And no, it's not economies of scale, we could make windows half the price that way here.

No truck required. They are all on the shelf at The Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/s/window?NCNI-5
You cunts are still in the dark ages.

[Akzle]

.

My brother (joiner) imported board direct from china at one point and even with the fuckery it was considerably cheaper than the same board sourced localy.

.

mr winstone might have words to say about that >_>


fuken asshole

[husaberg]

mr winstone might have words to say about that >_>


fuken asshole

Its fletchers you nong............
there hasn't been a Winstone involved for 30 years or more.

[Akzle]

I hate those house porn programs on TV.

dunno... they keep a lot of dum "builders" employed...

assholes think "i'll just reno the bathroom... and add a spa room, and another level to the house.. that's a weekend project ehh"

[Ocean1]

No truck required. They are all on the shelf at The Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/s/window?NCNI-5
You cunts are still in the dark ages.

Yep, there y'go, a complete house set of windows for about half of the extra cost imposed here by the mandatory change to double glazing standards.

And the Commerce Commission think their job is to prevent "dumping" :rolleyes:

[R650R]

I recently assisted a customer with freight who had privately imported a set of double doors glazed witht he little windows all over, white picket fence house kind a style, think he paid 20 GBP for them, they were fairly mint.
He had these along with several old style oven ranges, tiles on top of two trailers piggybacked into container.... I must go have a coffee and catch up with him.
Looking for some bi fold doors here price start around 2k by the looks and that's secondhand.....

Glad I bought and didn't build....


BTW thread hijack, what sort of cost for knocking out interior wall and moving to rearrange and make a bigger bathroom etc.....

[Honest Andy]

BTW thread hijack, what sort of cost for knocking out interior wall and moving to rearrange and make a bigger bathroom etc.....

string start ------------------------------------------------------string end

moving a wall is fairly easily priced, it's the "etc" you mentioned that'll get ya. You'll probably need a sparky to move the light switch and a turd-burgler to shift the vanity and a flooring guy etc etc. All pretty easy once you get stuck in, but you better have a spare bathroom in the meantime :msn-wink:

P.S. Interior walls are sometimes structural. Don't pull out a structural wall without professional help.
But if you are absolutely certain that the wall is just a partition... we could all give ya a hand Saturday...
http://d1j19yvx1huxho.cloudfront.net/thumbs/221d2.png

[TheDemonLord]

I'm just going to say - at some point I'd love to build my own house.

Custom Drum rooms with raised floors, doubke doors and acoustic insulation aren't coming up in Trademe too often.

[Honest Andy]

I'm just going to say - at some point I'd love to build my own house.

Custom Drum rooms with raised floors, doubke doors and acoustic insulation aren't coming up in Trademe too often.

Drum room? Get a place near the coast, like an old gun emplacement... :laugh:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I recently assisted a customer with freight who had privately imported a set of double doors glazed witht he little windows all over, white picket fence house kind a style, think he paid 20 GBP for them, they were fairly mint.
He had these along with several old style oven ranges, tiles on top of two trailers piggybacked into container.... I must go have a coffee and catch up with him.
Looking for some bi fold doors here price start around 2k by the looks and that's secondhand.....

Glad I bought and didn't build....


BTW thread hijack, what sort of cost for knocking out interior wall and moving to rearrange and make a bigger bathroom etc.....

DIY that shit. WCGW?

(best hope that wall isnt load bearing... but whatever)

[HenryDorsetCase]

Drum room? Get a place near the coast, like an old gun emplacement... :laugh:

a BIG Room with mics at the end you'll sound like John Bonham

[ellipsis]

I'm just going to say - at some point I'd love to build my own house.

Custom Drum rooms with raised floors, doubke doors and acoustic insulation aren't coming up in Trademe too often.


...you're a drummer?...forgive me for any negative things I may have posted on your opinions...I had no idea of the seriousness or cause of your affliction...

[Ocean1]

Drum rooms with raised floors,

There's been a few built out of unused bulk storage tanks. I remember seeing an article about development of a pair on a shoreline somewhere, was on the market recently.

I could probably do that conversion inside six months, and the original structural requirements for the tank make it's use as a dwelling a non issue.

Now, the ticket punching parasitic requirements.....

[Akzle]

....


BTW thread hijack, what sort of cost for knocking out interior wall and moving to rearrange and make a bigger bathroom etc.....

five bucks and a baggie mate. i'm right into that shit.



depends if it's a bearing wall or not, how much you can remove and how much you'd then have to brace or support. then there's reinstating ceilings and flooring. depends if it's gib or weetbix or t&g kauri

[Akzle]

I'm just going to say - at some point I'd love to build my own house.

Custom Drum rooms with raised floors, doubke doors and acoustic insulation aren't coming up in Trademe too often.

http://www.electronicdrumsetshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/41XRrP603BL-500x280.jpg


what you want is (presumably) an anechoic hedron, double skinned walls with offset studs, floating floor, either carpet it (cheap) or get acoustic tiling (expensive)


fucken cunt to frame up. but i'll tots do that for you.

[Moi]

I hate those house porn programs on TV but I watched the one of the VERY expensive queenstown house. They imported their windows from Chermany. Triple glazed with thermal breaks. Massively expensive.

They also imported wooden cladding from fucking Estonia.

It was the numerous comments made by "look at me and my money man" about being "refugees from the Christchurch earthquakes" that really annoyed me... what about the thousands who can't move from Chch to Queenstown for any number of reasons!

The house the architects had built was far more interesting to me... mid Central winter and the house is 22°C inside and it's all by passive heating and good technology.

[Swoop]

All you get is a generic plan...
Not so. A good mate built in Hamilton using a franchise building company.
He took their book of "standard plans" and physically cut into them with a pair of scissors, then changed a few rooms around. Said "I want you to build that" to the company and they happily agreed.
Standard plans in a booklet are for the retards who haven't a clue about design and then would still choose a standard plan and locate it on a site without regard for where the sun is through the day.



The other thing is that systems which are commonplace overseas are virtually unheard of here.triple glazing and whatnot.
The big problem with high-quality windows imported from Europe is... "it doesn't comply with our regulations".
Yup. Since it hasn't been tested to our standards (far lower) there are massive problems with that nasty word "compliance".
What European manufacturer would bother going to the huge expense of our testing of a product which passes far higher levels? This annoys council pencil-pushing dickwads who then get all uppity.



... the mandatory change to double glazing standards.
Not 100% correct.
You can still build with single glazing. There is a way.

[TheDemonLord]

http://www.electronicdrumsetshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/41XRrP603BL-500x280.jpg


what you want is (presumably) an anechoic hedron, double skinned walls with offset studs, floating floor, either carpet it (cheap) or get acoustic tiling (expensive)


fucken cunt to frame up. but i'll tots do that for you.

Lol - I actually have an Electric kit (and my Acoustic) - As for being Anechoic - faaaark no - A room has got to have some life in it. but yeah - floating floor, acoustic tiles - a Mate of mine (also a drummer) built one - and when fulled closed, I can be blasting away at full pelt and you can have a conversation in the room next door comfortably.

[TheDemonLord]

...you're a drummer?...forgive me for any negative things I may have posted on your opinions...I had no idea of the seriousness or cause of your affliction...

:lol:

At least I'm not a Bassist....

Also:

http://www.spectremedia.ca/wp-content/uploads/222-1-500x500.jpg

[BMWST?]

what you want is (presumably) an anechoic hedron, double skinned walls with offset studs, floating floor, either carpet it (cheap) or get acoustic tiling (expensive)


fucken cunt to frame up. but i'll tots do that for you. forget the offset studs,just have two completley seperate frames the slight difference in material cost will probabaly be offset by the saving in labour.Keep the gap big enough for the blanket insulation

[Ocean1]

You can still build with single glazing. There is a way.

Of course there is. You simply tell everyone NOT paying to build your house to fuck the fuck off.

Like I said, every time there's a trend of media bleats about an aspect of NZ housing quality/performance the various authorities "fix" the problem by the simple expediency of requiring everyone else to pay for it.

It's well past time we started ignoring both the interfering cretins that think they need some say in how we spend our hard earned cash AND the professional bleeding heart advocates that drive them.

[BMWST?]

Of course there is. You simply tell everyone NOT paying to build your house to fuck the fuck off.

Like I said, every time there's a trend of media bleats about an aspect of NZ housing quality/performance the various authorities "fix" the problem by the simple expediency of requiring everyone else to pay for it.

It's well past time we started ignoring both the interfering cretins that think they need some say in how we spend our hard earned cash AND the professional bleeding heart advocates that drive them.

evry house built has to have an "insulation" matrix done.Double glaazed windows are only part of that solution.For instance a house with very good insulation and relatively small windows will get the same rating as a "normal" house in the same climatic zone.The requirement for double glazing to attain the required rating is dpendent on climateA house in southland may very well require double glazing regardless of attempts to avoid it,a house in Northland may be very easy to avoid double glazing.

[Ocean1]

evry house built has to have an "insulation" matrix done.Double glaazed windows are only part of that solution.For instance a house with very good insulation and relatively small windows will get the same rating as a "normal" house in the same climatic zone.The requirement for double glazing to attain the required rating is dpendent on climateA house in southland may very well require double glazing regardless of attempts to avoid it,a house in Northland may be very easy to avoid double glazing.

Aye. I wasn't completely unaware of how it works, my contention is rather who's fucking business it is to be deciding what to spend my house budget on.

Don't get me wrong, if I were building another house, without official restrictions it would comply with many, probably most of the existing building requirements. It would certainly exceed most of them.

But here's the thing: it would do so with absolutely none of the compliance costs involved, which are simply fucking ludicrous.

Like I said, go add up the total materials and labour cost involved in a particular build. Anything OTHER than that is simply not a build related cost, it's a rort, pure and simple.

[Laava]

Having worked in the past as a supervisor for Jennian as well as building a few houses for a number of franchises, it is quite interesting how many different opinions people have on the topic. Someone said that all the generic building company houses are shit quality, hasn't been my experience, if the client has a very tight budget it can seem that way but the overall std is pretty good. Someone else said that you are stuck with a generic plan, as far as I know only Golden Homes has this regime in place.
The main reasons that people go to a group house builder is, budget( ie, working to a budget, this is usually because they are borrowing from the banks who require lots of paperwork), lack of expertise to design their own home and because of a recommendation.
The glazing thing has been interesting, the financial difference is much closer now that it has become mainstream and once you have lived with it, you probably wouldn't go back to single.
Same thing with building on a cavity, there are more advantages than disadvantages and the extra cost is not as high as you think.
Some of the group housing companies pay their tradies good money as well and for this they get good tradies that will be loyal and do a good job and be efficient.
Of course, the opposite can happen as well, and as happened to me, you can be working for a reputable firm for a while and then all of a sudden they can go tits up owing money to every man and his dog. (David Reid, Whangarei, they did this twice, cunts!)
I am working on a house built in 1908 at the moment and it is amazing how badly they were built(by todays stds) and they stayed standing. The timber itself was pretty good quality but every other aspect is below par.

[BMWST?]

i work for a prenail company.Our margins for large builders are very low.We use the same systems and materials for all our work.It is very rare that we do indentical houses It seems every single one i s different.Even when we are told they are the same we find that they are not...difefrent roof shapes different windows etc.Maybe very SIMILAR floor plans

[Gremlin]

As always, it comes down to the people. Are the bosses screwing down the price of their tradies, forcing them to take shortcuts? Are they paying the right amount, retaining their skilled guys so that corners aren't cut and the house is built well?

I'm in enough of a position to know/see both sides. Bad tradies that can't build to plan and companies screwing the price down so badly the tradie waters down the paint or replaces a specified product with a cheaper substitute...

[russd7]

wow, what a can of worms i opened up here an i didn't even know i started a thread all on my ownsome :confused:

anyway, reason i asked is that our boy is building in welcome bay using GJ but the franchisee is his cousin or somit (my son from a different father), things do seem to be going to plan. having said that i also know another GJ franchisee who is dodgy as fuck, i would drink with the prick but wouldn't trust him as far as i could kick him ever since my sis caught him in their bed with anudder female (my sis used other words to describe her that even i would not use) and being she was married to the slimy prick and she is not the most open minded of women then it did not make her happy. anyway that makes one good GJ franchisee (happy clappers they are) and one bad GJ franchisee (the spawn of Satan if my sister is correct)

[husaberg]

I'm just going to say - at some point I'd love to build my own house.

Custom Drum rooms with raised floors, doubke doors and acoustic insulation aren't coming up in Trademe too often.

Maybe try sex dungeon as a search preference

[Akzle]

.

But here's the thing: it would do so with absolutely none of the compliance costs involved, which are simply fucking ludicrous.

Like I said, go add up the total materials and labour cost involved in a particular build. Anything OTHER than that is simply not a build related cost, it's a rort, pure and simple.

you should vote about it.

i mean really. who the fuck are you to question the ways of your duly elected betters?