gearbox oil

[jellywrestler]

got a bike that lists 30 weight engine oil, mid sixties four stroke twin, we've moved on since then, what alternatives should i look at to use?

[Voltaire]

I use EP 90 in the BMW's, but there are no bush's in them, you have to check the label GL4 and GL5 harms " yellow metals"

You may need to check that as its from memory.

[sidecar bob]

is it a combined unit, or stand alone gearbox. Wet or dry clutch?

[jellywrestler]

is it a combined unit, or stand alone gearbox. Wet or dry clutch?

1966 kawasaki W1 preunit, wet clutch in a primary chaincase, pretty much identical to a bsa of the time. having a bit of an issue with gear selection so first thing is an oil change methinks

[T.W.R]

Try some Castrol Classic XL30 or ST90 ( it's API GL-3)

EP90 is actually GL-4 :msn-wink:

[AllanB]

1966 kawasaki W1 preunit


Nice score there. Photos please.

[Voltaire]

Try some Castrol Classic XL30 or ST90 ( it's API GL-3)

EP90 is actually GL-4 :msn-wink:

I forgot the , was doing the Vespa recently and its got bushes. Oil that is not black and smelly makes it a lot smoother :innocent:

[jellywrestler]

I forgot the , was doing the Vespa recently and its got bushes. Oil that is not black and smelly makes it a lot smoother :innocent:

ended up using the same shit as i use in my vincent gearbox, made sense to me.

[T.W.R]

I forgot the , was doing the Vespa recently and its got bushes. Oil that is not black and smelly makes it a lot smoother :innocent:

Yeah the XL30 & ST 90 are specifically designed for early style gearboxes etc with straight cut & helical gears the XL30 is a 20w too and both GL-3
GL-4 & 5 are for hypoid and the such like

[Grumph]

ended up using the same shit as i use in my vincent gearbox, made sense to me.

I'll bite - what do you use in a Vin box now ? EP90 ?

If the kawasaki clutch and primary have their own oil, I'd use ATF in that side.

[sidecar bob]

I'll bite - what do you use in a Vin box now ? EP90 ?

If the kawasaki clutch and primary have their own oil, I'd use ATF in that side.

Yep, I'm in the ATF camp too. Everything in that gearbox is in an auto, plus heaps more & the auto works the oil a lot harder.
ATF is way more than up to the job.

[T.W.R]

A 50yr old long throw 4spd gearbox that's been running a heavier weight oil isn't got to like ATF....ATF is only equivalent to roughly 10w.
If it's been completely refurbished with new components & seals then yeah maybe, but it wasn't designed for it and 50yrs of wear & tear have got used to something with a bit of guts to it :msn-wink:

[sidecar bob]

A 50yr old long throw 4spd gearbox that's been running a heavier weight oil isn't got to like ATF....ATF is only equivalent to roughly 10w.
If it's been completely refurbished with new components & seals then yeah maybe, but it wasn't designed for it and 50yrs of wear & tear have got used to something with a bit of guts to it :msn-wink:

I think I have a better idea on your age now. Oil & guts in the same context.;)
It's a cog box, not an internal combustion engine.
In the late '80's the Holden dealer parts manager phoned me to ask how I was fixing all the commodore 4 five speed gearboxes without fitting new synchros. The answer was, fill them with ATF.

[T.W.R]

I think I have a better idea on your age now. Oil & guts in the same context.;)
It's a cog box, not an internal combustion engine.
In the late '80's the Holden dealer parts manager phoned me to ask how I was fixing commodore 4 five speed gearboxes without fitting new synchros. The answer was, fill them with ATF.

:scratch: wasn't aware the correct terminology was a prerequisite for the thread :bleh:

Common door 4cyl were a POS anyhow quickest fix was a litre of fuel poured around the interior & a match thrown in to get things underway ;)

[Grumph]

A 50yr old long throw 4spd gearbox that's been running a heavier weight oil isn't got to like ATF....ATF is only equivalent to roughly 10w.
If it's been completely refurbished with new components & seals then yeah maybe, but it wasn't designed for it and 50yrs of wear & tear have got used to something with a bit of guts to it :msn-wink:

1/ I didn't actually say to use ATF in the Vin box - just the clutch and primary of the Kawasaki if they were a separate compartment. BTW I suspect the kawa version of the BSA box has a few more rolling element bearings...

2/ SAE rating is irrelevant - EP90 ain't 90 weight. ATF is formulated for high temps and pressures.

3/ I've used atf in plenty of boxes since the 70's. It was the standard fix for slipping wet clutches in race 2 strokes and is still my first choice for a race post classic 2T engine.

[T.W.R]

1/ I didn't actually say to use ATF in the Vin box - just the clutch and primary of the Kawasaki if they were a separate compartment. BTW I suspect the kawa version of the BSA box has a few more rolling element bearings...

2/ SAE rating is irrelevant - EP90 ain't 90 weight. ATF is formulated for high temps and pressures.

3/ I've used atf in plenty of boxes since the 70's. It was the standard fix for slipping wet clutches in race 2 strokes and is still my first choice for a race post classic 2T engine.

:facepalm: Don't be so precious it was generalised comment about ATF in an old gearbox
But:

1) Kawasaki didn't having anything to do with the original it was Meguro who produced the 1st version and got the design from BSA in 1960, they produced the bike in 65 as the X650 and did quite a few internal upgrades over the BSA A7 design. Kawasaki inherited it from Meguro and produced the W1 in 66 for local market and the exported in 67.

2) Who gives a monkeys about EP90 and what actual viscosity it is. Or we could head down the Dynamic & Kinematic path and really head off track

3) Guess what it's a go to replacement gearbox oil for 2stroke MX bikes too

4) As a genuine Japanese classic and recognised by the Japanese automotive industry as one of their bench mark machines an early W1 deserves to be done properly minus cheap arse short cuts which a lot do with classics kidding themselves they're doing the machines justice.

5) If was a modern machine and a warranty repair it'd be done by the book so why the hell not do it justice as an older machine and keep to that train of thought particularly as it's something a person in-trusts their lives in the machine & fact the job will be done properly, anything short of that is criminal and a sign of no care or consideration for what the consequences could be who does the job.

[sidecar bob]

ATF is not a cheap arse short cut.
Oil is not a clearance reducer or wear compensator in any application, regardless of viscosity, or how much " guts" it has (what silly old men see when they pour it out of the bottle)
You stick to what you know, you obviously have a huge & succesful background in working on highly tuned & exotic machinery.
The factory fill for the transmission in question was a '60's straight 30 motor oil, pretty much just something to stop it going rusty.
If you put that in a modern automatic transmission, the oil & the trans would be totally rooted within 30km. What does that tell you about the quality difference of the oils? Probably something you can google hard enough to argue the point about no doubt.

[Voltaire]

They used to put engine in forks too...
I'm not sure I'd be keen on putting anything other than what BMW recommend in my gearboxes.
I have no experience with highly tuned or erotic machinery:rolleyes: but then my gearboxes seem to last a long time.:2thumbsup

[Crasherfromwayback]

3/ I've used atf in plenty of boxes since the 70's. It was the standard fix for slipping wet clutches in race 2 strokes and is still my first choice for a race post classic 2T engine.

Yep. Used ATF in most of my 2T gear boxes since the beginning of my love affair with them.

[sidecar bob]

They used to put engine in forks too...
I'm not sure I'd be keen on putting anything other than what BMW recommend in my gearboxes.
I have no experience with highly tuned or erotic machinery:rolleyes: but then my gearboxes seem to last a long time.:2thumbsup

I used ATF in my BMW race bike gearbox & it was six seconds a lap faster than yours last time we measured. I'm putting that down to frictional losses in the driveline, oh, and your refusal to lie on the tank.:facepalm:

[Voltaire]

I used ATF in my BMW race bike gearbox & it was six seconds a lap faster than yours last time we measured. I'm putting that down to frictional losses in the driveline, oh, and your refusal to lie on the tank.:facepalm:

I suspect your years and years and years of racing and lack of general degradation may have also helped :niceone:
Six seconds..... worth thinking about though :banana:

[T.W.R]

You stick to what you know, you obviously have a huge & succesful background in working on highly tuned & exotic machinery.

:clap: You really shouldn't be so smug Steve & my my haven't you changed your tune from a couple of months ago :laugh: quite amusing really

Don't really have to nor need reason to explain myself to you; but over many years have had to be responsible for the operation & maintenance of machinery & equipment far more technologically advanced and far more expensive than anything you've probably ever laid your hands on. And of recent been responsible for ensuring heavy diesel technicians & engineers have had at their disposal the correct items for their jobs, usually turning over between $80-$130k per month a large majority of which was oils, additives, & other associated fluids for machinery & equipment who's owners depend on running properly and efficiently.
And that also included parts technical, support, procurement, & supply to U.S.A.P technicians and their fleet of machinery that operates in one of the harshest environments possible were one minor fuck-up with anything can potentially put a lot of peoples lives at risk.
Amongst that a lot of oil sampling & testing in conjunction with Goughs laboratories & FUCHS australasia HQ and late on PETRONAS HQ

And as for where some info comes from you'd be surprised at what I have at my disposal and your auntie google is usually only used for quickly sourcing images and rough data.
And I finally located that article on the 1135/400 hybrid and you can fucking whistle for that now too
So you keep to what you think you know about someone & tinker away on your over priced & over rated bavarian drays

[sidecar bob]

:clap: You really shouldn't be so smug Steve & my my haven't you changed your tune from a couple of months ago :laugh: quite amusing really

Don't really have to nor need reason to explain myself to you; but over many years have had to be responsible for the operation & maintenance of machinery & equipment far more technologically advanced and far more expensive than anything you've probably ever laid your hands on. And of recent been responsible for ensuring heavy diesel technicians & engineers have had at their disposal the correct items for their jobs, usually turning over between $80-$130k per month a large majority of which was oils, additives, & other associated fluids for machinery & equipment who's owners depend on running properly and efficiently.
And that also included parts technical, support, procurement, & supply to U.S.A.P technicians and their fleet of machinery that operates in one of the harshest environments possible were one minor fuck-up with anything can potentially put a lot of peoples lives at risk.
Amongst that a lot of oil sampling & testing in conjunction with Goughs laboratories & FUCHS australasia HQ and late on PETRONAS HQ

And as for where some info comes from you'd be surprised at what I have at my disposal and your auntie google is usually only used for quickly sourcing images and rough data.
And I finally located that article on the 1135/400 hybrid and you can fucking whistle for that now too
So you keep to what you think you know about someone & tinker away on your over priced & over rated bavarian drays
Wow, all that & you cant think pragmatically outside the square a wee bit?

The "successful background in working on highly tuned exotic machinery" was referring to Grumph, I just work on road cars.

[T.W.R]

Wow, all that & you cant think pragmatically outside the square a wee bit?

The "successful background in working on highly tuned exotic machinery" was referring to Grumph, I just work on road cars.

:killingme
took you nearly 3hrs to come back with that after sayin the same lame shit in your rep when you 1st read it :pinch: and bullshit you were aiming your comments at Greg

[caspernz]

The oil sagas can be mighty amusing. Our work trucks, nice big V8 Scanias, run a fancy synthetic long life engine oil. The hydraulic retarders run on something akin to ATF, albeit by some Scania specific name. Imagine the horror when the Swedish chap who came to visit some time back, that due to our hilly terrain in NZ the retarders were working the ATF too hard and it was starting to degrade quite quickly...so the lead mechanic switched to running engine oil in the retarders. Took the poor Swedish chap a fair while to accept that the viscosity was in the right ballpark, and the ability to run hotter without degradation between fluid changes, this kiwi approach might merit wider application. The lead mechanic chuckled when he shared that he learned this from a colleague working in outback OZ, they'd been doing for some time :facepalm::innocent::wacko:

Not that long ago we used engine oil, the old single weight stuff, in forks didn't we?

But interesting reading your debates chaps :2thumbsup

[sidecar bob]

:killingme
took you nearly 3hrs to come back with that after sayin the same lame shit in your rep when you 1st read it :pinch: and bullshit you were aiming your comments at Greg

Really, I don't track my KB quite that closely, but good on you for being that on to it.
Yeah, I was referring to Greg, I send him my engines because Im too stupid to fix them myself.
Then I end up sticking the wrong oil in them & fucking them anyway because im an idiot.

[T.W.R]

Really, I don't track my KB quite that closely, but good on you for being that on to it.
Yeah, I was referring to Greg, I send him my engines because Im too stupid to fix them myself.
Then I end up sticking the wrong oil in them & fucking them anyway because im an idiot.

Ha yeah that really stacks up against the context of your whole post :facepalm:
Someone else was right yesterday when they said you're in a huff presently. Must be a really coarse feather you've got buried up your arse at the moment.

Hole....Shovel.....Deeper scenario seems to be working fine :yes:

[sidecar bob]

Ha yeah that really stacks up against the context of your whole post :facepalm:
Someone else was right yesterday when they said you're in a huff presently. Must be a really coarse feather you've got buried up your arse at the moment.

Hole....Shovel.....Deeper scenario seems to be working fine :yes:

In a huff??? really? You might need to check your sources a little more thoroughly.
Im in a very happy place presently, probably more so than ever.
And as per your rep comment, Do you really think Katman or someone else, I cant even figure out who you mean, tell me what to post on here?
Sadly, no, its all my own work.

[T.W.R]

Im in a very happy place presently, probably more so than ever.
Sadly, no, its all my own work.

:killingme OK Gilmore, glad you've found your happy place :niceone:

[jellywrestler]

i ended up using spectro heavy duty primary chaincase oil.

[Voltaire]

i ended up using spectro heavy duty primary chaincase oil.

After you said it was for a 60's Kawasaki I did some research in some old British Bike mags and came up with the correct period oil.


332402

[caspernz]

After you said it was for a 60's Kawasaki I did some research in some old British Bike mags and came up with the correct period oil.

So by that logic, does a Ducati need virgin olive oil?

[pete376403]

Yes, but because of leaks you will always need extra virgin olive oil

[Flip]

Yes, but because of leaks you will always need extra virgin olive oil

Yea but it wont be a virgin for long with you lot around.

What about good old motor oil? It won't be multigrade for ever but it will work ok. Espcially if its JASO rated for jap clutches.

Mobil 1 always used to work well in my old car gear boxes when they called for a 30 weight oil. Its very shear stable. But not for wet clutches.

ATF would be worth a try. But again might be a bit slippery for a wet clutch.

Not that I know fuck all about engineering or oils.

[Crasherfromwayback]

ATF would be worth a try. But again might be a bit slippery for a wet clutch.

.

Automatic gearboxes have lots of clutch plates in 'em mate. It's great for them.

[roogazza]

Automatic gearboxes have lots of clutch plates in 'em mate. It's great for them.
yeah mate ,like you've said we used it in 2T gearboxes in the olden days. (remember push starts ? clutches worked fine)
I used it often in forks as well, in some things.

[Voltaire]

That's all fine and dandy if the clutch lives in the engine/gearbox but the Kawasaki in the original post is a separate gearbox...as you were.:msn-wink:

ATF in forks...suppose if you have no fork oil....

[Crasherfromwayback]

That's all fine and dandy if the clutch lives in the engine/gearbox but the Kawasaki in the original post is a separate gearbox...as you were.:msn-wink:

ATF in forks...suppose if you have no fork oil....

Fully appreciate that. But like your forks comment, the conversation has drifted all over the place. Which is fine by me.

[neels]

Penrite do a reasonable number of oils to suit completely obsolete machinery, like the close to 100 year old stuff my old man has in his garage.

If you want a 30 weight oil for your gearbox, ignoring the bollocks about how much better oil is now and remembering it was designed for the oil that existed when it was made, it still exists.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/categories/construction/four-stroke-sae-30-mineral

[Kickaha]

ATF in forks...suppose if you have no fork oil....

It's probably recommended for your Darmah, it was for my MHR

[pete376403]

A work associate imports used bikes from Japan. When this thread came up I asked him if he knew of any W1s on offer. Ha came back with pics of a low mileage (9200km) original W1 being auctioned later that day - suggested it would go for around $NZ10000 .

[Voltaire]

A work associate imports used bikes from Japan. When this thread came up I asked him if he knew of any W1s on offer. Ha came back with pics of a low mileage (9200km) original W1 being auctioned later that day - suggested it would go for around $NZ10000 .

I was talking with my mate who has bought quite a few Japanese Import Ducatis from a guy down your way.
Whats the story as you see pics with yards and warehouses full of them in various stages of decay.
Over a couple of beers concluded there must be a team there who find good ones, some that need some work, and ones together from piles of junk.

[jellywrestler]

A work associate imports used bikes from Japan. When this thread came up I asked him if he knew of any W1s on offer. Ha came back with pics of a low mileage (9200km) original W1 being auctioned later that day - suggested it would go for around $NZ10000 .

except it's a W2

[pete376403]

except it's a W2

There were other pics. This is one of them. Wikipedia suggests that the W1SS was built from 1968 and had twin mikunis

[pete376403]

I was talking with my mate who has bought quite a few Japanese Import Ducatis from a guy down your way.
.

Is the importer a Saffer?

[T.W.R]

There were other pics. This is one of them. Wikipedia suggests that the W1SS was built from 1968 and had twin mikunis

Petersen's Motorcycle year book show that's there were three models available for purchase in the US in 1968 ;) W1, W2SS, & W2TT

[jellywrestler]

There were other pics. This is one of them. Wikipedia suggests that the W1SS was built from 1968 and had twin mikunis

more likely a later w2 with a w1 motor in it with w2 motor cover then maybe?