LAMS restricted vs full power ecu [Archive]

HEsch

25th October 2017, 09:11

A conversation with a friend led me to wonder, what is the difference between the LAMS-restricted and full power versions of the SV650?
Does anyone here know? Friend reckons not much difference (ie not worth doing when one finally has a full licence)

Google searches return only old results with comments about clipping wires - not useful comments on actual performance.

TheDemonLord

25th October 2017, 11:41

I may or may not have had an GSX650FU which may or may not have got the snip, which may or may not have happened when I was on my Restricted.

If you kept that bike below 6k RPM - you would not notice any difference before and after.

But...

Crank it over 6k and it is literally another bike - I can't speak for the SV650 - I'm an inline 4 whore - but yeah it was definitely worth it. Double the Horsepower, double the Torque.

HEsch

25th October 2017, 12:20

A bit more googling revealed similar comments on slightly older SV models and the Gladius. No change at lower end but tons in the upper revs. One said perhaps runs a bit hotter (but it was working harder, so, probably to be expected). I couldn't find any examples of people actually getting a new ecu (more of the illegal mods) but I shall ask the dealers who sold me my bike when I'm next there as I know they've had both in stock.

One published article suggested 12% power lost, and max torque at 4000 rather than up to 8000, with the lams restrictions.

I love her as is, plenty of get up and go at all speeds/revs (sooooo nice to just open the throttle), and I'm well under the assumed 90kg rider+gear allowance (maybe 75, dripping wet) - so I'm already winning - next year may involve a new ecu as I don't think I want a new bike [once I'm on my full]. However, it might be worth an upgrade, rather than spending the dosh on an ecu - depending on price of course.

Gubb

25th October 2017, 16:34

Waste of money IMHO, you'd be better off selling it and picking up a slightly older 1000cc. Keeping it as stock lets you resell it in a limited market to someone who is after a LAMS version, not a gimped and modified version in a market of many other possibilities after LAMS.

TheDemonLord

25th October 2017, 22:58

awayatc

26th October 2017, 07:04

HEsch

26th October 2017, 12:41

I wasn't asking about the "how". I was asking about the results. I think I've located that answer, thanks all :)

TheDemonLord

27th October 2017, 11:36

Illegal mods....?
Mods are not illegal. Just illegal to ride full noise bike on lams licence.

Suzuki makes same ecu for all those bikes around the world....
Then adds a restrict or to please different countries with different hp laws....

All you do is remove that restrictor when you have full licence.
Nothing illegal about that.

It would be a 20 min job to just cut that 1 particular wire to your ecu....
You can always reconnect it when you sell it for lams purposes.

As a point of Pedantry - I think *technically* the minute you tinker with the bike in anyway to increase HP or Decrease weight, it's no longer LAMS and *technically* it needs to be re-registered with the VTNZ as a full-sauce bike (with the $2k in compliance fees or something stupid)

Prevailing wisdom however is as you say.

FJRider

27th October 2017, 11:55

... *technically* it needs to be re-registered with the VTNZ as a full-sauce bike (with the $2k in compliance fees or something stupid)

Prevailing wisdom however is as you say.

Nope ... it just remains Non LAM's compliant. It may still be perfectly legal ... just no longer a LAM's compliant motorcycle. And if advertised for sale .. it cannot be listed as LAM's compliant ...

neil.

19th November 2017, 09:33

I had a ride on a LAMS sv650 earlier in the year, nice bike, but literally nothing much going on in the top end, it just sort of petered out and that was it.
plenty of usable grunt in the bottom end though, very rideable.

given the HP difference in spec I would expect there to be quite a difference in the top end going to a full-power version

bwyatt

1st February 2019, 10:13

Hi, im on my restricted and was wondering if i was to purchase a full power sv650 whether i would be able to make it lams approved by swapping the ecu or would it also require a new registration etc?

neil.

1st February 2019, 18:04

tigertim20

1st February 2019, 18:15

FJRider

1st February 2019, 19:19

Crank it over 6k and it is literally another bike - I can't speak for the SV650 - I'm an inline 4 whore - but yeah it was definitely worth it. Double the Horsepower, double the Torque.

The unrestricted version is 85 HP. The restricted version is 83.5 HP. The change is achieved by installing a modified ECM (Engine Control Module) that has most of the upper band of available engine revs mapped to lower power output. The shortfall in HP is to get under the specified power to weight ratio as specified in LAM's requirements.

The first rule of (any) claimed engine horsepower is that the horsepower being developed is not constant throughout the Rev range. The production of horsepower increases as the RPM of the engines increases. Maximum HP is usually achieved at or near red-line RPM. As such ... ride ANY (Restricted) LAM's motorcycle at or near red line RPM ... and you will never notice any difference.

As such ... the ONE and a HALF extra horsepower on the full power model is barely worth the effort. You might notice an extra 1 and a half HP on a GN250 .. but with 83.5 to play with ... whats the problem ... ??? In my youth I rode a Honda CB750F1 ... rated at 69 HP. 12.5 HP less than learners are allowed today ... and it's learners that are moaning because they're "Restricted" in the HP that's available to them ... Go figure .. !!!

Thus ... your claim of DOUBLE the horsepower is COMPLETE AND TOTAL BULLSHIT ... !!!

FJRider

1st February 2019, 19:44

LAMS bike usually are registered with a different model code aren't they ?

I assume to register as something different they would require frame numbers etc, at which point they could see it used to be something else.

Do not read more into the legalities of the LAM's system than is required.

The Majority of the Highway patrol have no idea about which bike/model is "LAM's" approved. If stopped ... they will know you and your bikes details before you switch it off roadside. If within the 251cc-660cc range ... chances are they that know or care about the LAM's class issue.

However .... if you ride like a dick on your learners/restricted ... they may pay a little more attention to the details.

Keep the Bike legal and your riding legal ... and random stops will be for a breath test. Pass and they wave you on.

Hoonicorn

1st February 2019, 20:31

Hi, im on my restricted and was wondering if i was to purchase a full power sv650 whether i would be able to make it lams approved by swapping the ecu or would it also require a new registration etc?

The SV650 has been around for ages, are you looking at the new model?

Just buy the LAMS version dude. You won't notice a difference until high up in the rev range anyway and they aren't that powerful unrestricted either. When I looked at one, the difference was like 20hp, but a learner won't even use the 50hp of the restricted version.

TheDemonLord

1st February 2019, 21:18

The unrestricted version is 85 HP. The restricted version is 83.5 HP. The change is achieved by installing a modified ECM (Engine Control Module) that has most of the upper band of available engine revs mapped to lower power output. The shortfall in HP is to get under the specified power to weight ratio as specified in LAM's requirements.

The first rule of (any) claimed engine horsepower is that the horsepower being developed is not constant throughout the Rev range. The production of horsepower increases as the RPM of the engines increases. Maximum HP is usually achieved at or near red-line RPM. As such ... ride ANY (Restricted) LAM's motorcycle at or near red line RPM ... and you will never notice any difference.

As such ... the ONE and a HALF extra horsepower on the full power model is barely worth the effort. You might notice an extra 1 and a half HP on a GN250 .. but with 83.5 to play with ... whats the problem ... ??? In my youth I rode a Honda CB750F1 ... rated at 69 HP. 12.5 HP less than learners are allowed today ... and it's learners that are moaning because they're "Restricted" in the HP that's available to them ... Go figure .. !!!

Thus ... your claim of DOUBLE the horsepower is COMPLETE AND TOTAL BULLSHIT ... !!!

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/driver-licences/getting-a-licence/licences-by-vehicle-type/motorcycles/lams/

less than 150 kilowatts per tonne

83.5 HP = 62 KW
Kerb Weight = 241 KG

241/1000 * 62 KW = 257 KW/tonne.

Clearly, if it's got 83.5 HP, it's not LAMS approved.

The actual HP output is between 30-40 - same calculation:

35 HP = 26 KW

241/1000 * 26 KW = 107 KW/tonne.

Clearly, LAMS approved.

35 is close to half of 83.5.

Would you like to retract the above statement?

FJRider

1st February 2019, 21:44

TheDemonLord

1st February 2019, 22:20

NOPE ... At legal speeds ... it cannot be developing 83.5 HP At red line it will be, the higher the revs ... the more HP it develops. And I quoted the specs for the GSX650f and the GSX650FU. The GSX650FU is on the LAM's list.

Have you ridden one?

I rode one for several Years, you're talking crap.

Can you show your source for the GSX650FU specs? When you rev the engine passed around the 7,000 RPM mark, the ECU retards the fuel mixture - the Engine revs higher, but DOESN'T generate any extra Power.

Can you point to the part in the Legislation where it stipulates 'At Legal speeds'?:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM280567.html?search=sw_096be8ed8182026b_150+kilo watts_25_se&p=1&sr=0

Edit: There's a whole heap of references floating around the internet to the LAMS ECU putting out 33 HP, which makes a lot of sense - since 33 HP is the restriction for Learners in the UK.

Scubbo

2nd February 2019, 20:21

buy an old 2nd/3rd/4th hand bike on the lams list, ride the shit out of it, obtain full, sell old bike if you need the $$$ if not you are probably in love with it sitll and know it in an out.... buy another non-lams bike for those time when you feel 250+kph is what you want........... profit.

FJRider

2nd February 2019, 21:10

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/driver-licences/getting-a-licence/licences-by-vehicle-type/motorcycles/lams/

83.5 HP = 62 KW
Kerb Weight = 241 KG

241/1000 * 62 KW = 257 KW/tonne.

Clearly, if it's got 83.5 HP, it's not LAMS approved.

The actual HP output is between 30-40 - same calculation:

35 HP = 26 KW

241/1000 * 26 KW = 107 KW/tonne.

Clearly, LAMS approved.

35 is close to half of 83.5.

Would you like to retract the above statement?

As per the Offical LAM's formula ...
To calculate the power to weight ratio for a lams bike you take the kw rating and divide it by the tare weight then multiply it by 1000,It should work out under 150kw per ton

From this site on the LAM's approved SV650. https://www.autocar.co.nz/autocar-bike-reviews-app/suzuki-sv650l-2016

Engine output is limited to 35kW {46.93577311 HP} in the learner version, down from 57 {76.438259064} normally. Torque, however, falls by only 7Nm to 57Nm. Using the LAMS formula - maximum permissible power to weight is 150kW/tonne - the SV rates at 122kW/tonne

From roughly 76.5 HP down to 46.9 HP. A little more than HALF the original HP wouldn't you say.

Instead of trying to work things out in your head (not much worth worrying about in there) ... use the correct formula and the correct power rating for the bike.

Hoonicorn

2nd February 2019, 21:29

Ok fellas calm the fk down. The OP says he has a 2017 SV650UA. The LAMS spec is officially 46HP. Once a bike has been registered as full spec, it cannot, I heard from a dealership, be registered as a LAMS spec.

2017 Suzuki SV650 Specifications. Engine Type. 645cc Liquid-cooled, EFI, DOHC, four-stroke, 90-degree V-Twin, 4 valves per cylinder. Bore and Stroke. 81.0mm x 62.6mm. Compression Ratio. 11.2:1. Crankshaft Horsepower (claimed) 75.1 hp @ 8,500 rpm. Wet Weight. 198kg.

So while you're arguing about the HP, in real world terms a person new to riding motorcycles is not going to notice much difference.

TheDemonLord

2nd February 2019, 22:24

As per the Offical LAM's formula ...

Which is what I did... You know how Maths works, that equations can be expressed in different ways, but still give the same answer:

241/1000 * 62 KW = 257 KW/tonne.
62/241 * 1000 = 257 KW/tonne.

From this site on the LAM's approved SV650. https://www.autocar.co.nz/autocar-bike-reviews-app/suzuki-sv650l-2016

And? I made the comment in reference to the GSX650FU, hell you even quoted the HP for the full power GSX650F - so why are you suddenly citing the SV650U?

From roughly 76.5 HP down to 46.9 HP. A little more than HALF the original HP wouldn't you say.

Different LAMS bike, different ratio.

Instead of trying to work things out in your head (not much worth worrying about in there) ... use the correct formula and the correct power rating for the bike.

Except - they both give the same answer.

Seems like what's in my head is a little bit more accurate than what's in yours, eh?

TheDemonLord

2nd February 2019, 22:27

Ok fellas calm the fk down. The OP says he has a 2017 SV650UA. The LAMS spec is officially 46HP. Once a bike has been registered as full spec, it cannot, I heard from a dealership, be registered as a LAMS spec.

2017 Suzuki SV650 Specifications. Engine Type. 645cc Liquid-cooled, EFI, DOHC, four-stroke, 90-degree V-Twin, 4 valves per cylinder. Bore and Stroke. 81.0mm x 62.6mm. Compression Ratio. 11.2:1. Crankshaft Horsepower (claimed) 75.1 hp @ 8,500 rpm. Wet Weight. 198kg.

So while you're arguing about the HP, in real world terms a person new to riding motorcycles is not going to notice much difference.

In the 0-3000 RPM range on the GSX650FU - I didn't notice too much difference between when it was restricted and unrestricted. 3000-7000 RPM you started to notice that it was a bit more spritely - above 7000 RPM however it was extremely noticeable. I remember the day I took it out for a Spin, cranked on the throttle and had a huge grin all day.

pritch

3rd February 2019, 12:24

Hi, im on my restricted and was wondering if i was to purchase a full power sv650 whether i would be able to make it lams approved by swapping the ecu or would it also require a new registration etc?

To be LAMS it has to be on the approved list. If the bike isn't on the list it isn't LAMS approved.

Here is the list, and according to my reading the SV650UA is on it:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/driver-licences/getting-a-licence/licences-by-vehicle-type/motorcycles/lams/lams-approved-and-prohibited-motorcycles/

FJRider

3rd February 2019, 16:05

Which is what I did... You know how Maths works, that equations can be expressed in different ways, but still give the same answer:

241/1000 * 62 KW = 257 KW/tonne.
62/241 * 1000 = 257 KW/tonne.

Perhaps you got yours wrong then ... Did you notice the LAM's sv650 toopk it well under the maximum limit for the power to weight limit ??? And for bugger all $$$ ... ECM's are available online to bring the available HP to just under the limit.

And? I made the comment in reference to the GSX650FU, hell you even quoted the HP for the full power GSX650F - so why are you suddenly citing the SV650U?

As I recall ... I think it was the SV650 you said had ... that with the restricter disabled doubled the HP. (I have been known to be wrong)

Different LAMS bike, different ratio.

Withe the LAM's formula ... different figures (HP and weight [kW/Tonne] for different bikes ... but the SAME FORMULA MUST BE USED.

Except - they both give the same answer.

As above ... same formula must be used.

Seems like what's in my head is a little bit more accurate than what's in yours, eh?

You've been proven to get things wrong too ...

FJRider

3rd February 2019, 17:00

Ok fellas calm the fk down. The OP says he has a 2017 SV650UA. The LAMS spec is officially 46HP. Once a bike has been registered as full spec, it cannot, I heard from a dealership, be registered as a LAMS spec.

The issue is not changing the registration status. Especially from full power to LAM's status. It is actually possible to do this ... but cost prohibitive with registration and certification costs which are not do it yourself at home jobs. Return for money spent would leave you with a deficit.

If the OP registered the bike in the name of a fully (and clean licensed) licensed rider ... a random radio plate check would reveal nothing incriminating. OR ... don't ride like a dick and attract attention. And keep the WOF and Reg up to date. Indicate when and how you are supposed to ... and keep all the lights working as they should. One blown tail light is certain bait for the plod (at night especially) With a breath test standard procedure.

So while you're arguing about the HP, in real world terms a person new to riding motorcycles is not going to notice much difference.

I've already said that.

As an "Older" rider (now) ... I was never restricted on the motorcycle I was allowed to ride on my full license. Which was a month (or was it three months .. ??) after I gained my learners license.

Funnily enough ... many experienced riders like riding the less powerful bikes ... riding slow bikes fast and embarrassing those "faster/more powerful" bike and riders. The Honda BROS 400 & 650 were good at this. The old adage ... it's not what you've got ... just how you use it ... comes to mind. Ability makes more of a difference than HP (But it does come in handy).

I rode a few two-strokes in my early riding years. Ride on the red line ... or you might as well walk (would seem faster).

TheDemonLord

3rd February 2019, 22:12

Perhaps you got yours wrong then ... Did you notice the LAM's sv650 toopk it well under the maximum limit for the power to weight limit ??? And for bugger all $$$ ... ECM's are available online to bring the available HP to just under the limit.

Well, the LAMS formula calculates KW per Kilo, then multiplies by 1000 to give KW per Tonne. I calculate the Tonnage, then divide the KW by that - either way, both ways still give KW/Tonne.

As I recall ... I think it was the SV650 you said had ... that with the restricter disabled doubled the HP. (I have been known to be wrong)

Nope - I mentioned the GSX650FU got double the fun when given the Snip, I then inferred that the SV was likely to be similar.

Withe the LAM's formula ... different figures (HP and weight [kW/Tonne] for different bikes ... but the SAME FORMULA MUST BE USED.

As above ... same formula must be used.

Both Forumlas give the exact same answer...

Either way - the GSX650FU gains over double the HP and Double the Torque when you de-restrict it, I've not ridden an SV either LAMS or not, so am not sure, taking your figures at face value - an Extra 30 HP will be very noticeable.

You've been proven to get things wrong too ...

I try not to make a habit of it

HEsch

4th February 2019, 13:31

Wow. Originally I just wanted to know the difference between the two models - not how to change one to the other. Someone else asked about that (presumably because the full power SV650s are sometimes available more plentifully and more cheaply, and then you'd be able to change it back to full power upon passing of the F licence... I speculate).

Regardless. I have test ridden two full power SV650s since purchasing the LAMS version. You can certainly feel the difference, but, it wasn't worth it to me to upgrade... I can get myself into enough trouble with the LAMS version as it is (goes like stink, etc). At some point I'll find another bike I really, really, really love and buy it. For now, the LAMS bike keeps me happy (yes, I got my Full).

Banditbandit

5th February 2019, 13:50

Do not read more into the legalities of the LAM's system than is required.

The Majority of the Highway patrol have no idea about which bike/model is "LAM's" approved. If stopped ... they will know you and your bikes details before you switch it off roadside. If within the 251cc-660cc range ... chances are they that know or care about the LAM's class issue.

However .... if you ride like a dick on your learners/restricted ... they may pay a little more attention to the details.

Keep the Bike legal and your riding legal ... and random stops will be for a breath test. Pass and they wave you on.

This ..

And LAMS bikes must be factory standard and unmodified - as soon as you change the EU it becomes a modified bike and therefore no longer LAMS ...