Manus Island

[Katman]

So is Australia right to ignore the plight of the Manus Island refugees or should action be taken to at least ensure their health and safety?

[mashman]

Ooooooo, that's a real tricky one. What's the GDP per capita of funding and does it represent value for money? Do you get a discount or better services if you allow yourself to be raped, beaten or tortured during your stay?

[TheDemonLord]

So is Australia right to ignore the plight of the Manus Island refugees or should action be taken to at least ensure their health and safety?

If I were to come and start living in your Garden (without your consent or permission), then you moved house and told me that I had to go elsewhere, but I refused to leave - would you be responsible for my Health and Safety?

[Katman]

If I were to come and start living in your Garden (without your consent or permission), then you moved house and told me that I had to go elsewhere, but I refused to leave - would you be responsible for my Health and Safety?

I expected no lesser answer from you.

[TheDemonLord]

I expected no lesser answer from you.

likewise...

So when can I start sending you my Doctors Bills?

[neels]

It's rather an odd situation all round, Australia sent them there, then shuts up shop and attempts to wash their hands of them.

Seems reasonable if they have been detained at a location not of their choice, that them who detained them are responsible for their welfare until they have somewhere acceptable to relocate to.

They could at least give them back the boat they arrived on, and let them make their own arrangements......

[Katman]

likewise...

So when can I start sending you my Doctors Bills?

The difference being, I didn't install you in my garden.

(Besides, your mental health bills would bankrupt me).

[TheDemonLord]

The difference being, I didn't install you in my garden.

(Besides, your mental health bills would bankrupt me).

You see - that's the point.

If I tried to move into your house (and be like ZOMG! Best buddies and roomies!) - and you said "No" and put me in your Garden - who instigated the entire scenario? You for maintaining your property and individual sovreignty? Or Me for trying to illegally move into your house?

And then you get to the point that you are no more willing than the Australian Government to pay for someone elses Health and Wellbeing.

and FYI - my Weight-related bills would bankrupt you long before you had a chance to send me to a shrink (although I think you'd be quite disappointed at the results of a Mental check up)

[neels]

If I were to come and start living in your Garden (without your consent or permission), then you moved house and told me that I had to go elsewhere, but I refused to leave - would you be responsible for my Health and Safety?
Not quite the right analogy...

More like you catch someone trying to climb over the fence into your back yard, so agree with your neighbor that you can park the person in their back yard and you'll look after them, then move away and make it the neighbors problem.

[Grumph]

Not quite the right analogy...

More like you catch someone trying to climb over the fence into your back yard, so agree with your neighbor that you can park the person in their back yard and you'll look after them, then move away and make it the neighbors problem.

Still not quite right...you've paid your neighbour to look after them but he's spent the money on booze....

Apparently the Aussies have paid the PNG government millions - most of which has disappeared. Corrupt govt and the Aussies emulating Pontius Pilate in the handwashing stakes.

Not an easy fix at all.

[TheDemonLord]

Not quite the right analogy...

More like you catch someone trying to climb over the fence into your back yard, so agree with your neighbor that you can park the person in their back yard and you'll look after them, then move away and make it the neighbors problem.

The bit that you have to convince me of - is that it was my problem in the first place - if that is the case, then they are responsible. If not, then they are not.

And from my understanding - Those on the Island were given the choice of:

Return to where you came.
Settle in PNG.
Settle somewhere else.

Yet, for some reason they aren't happy with that, they want to get to Australia, at which point - they aren't refugees, they are Economic Migrants.

[neels]

The bit that you have to convince me of - is that it was my problem in the first place - if that is the case, then they are responsible. If not, then they are not.
Agreed, unfortunately they have made it their problem by creating the place and sending people there, rather than just not let them into Australia and leave them to their own devices.


And from my understanding - Those on the Island were given the choice of:

Return to where you came.
Settle in PNG.
Settle somewhere else.
Yep, so give them their boat back and they can go wherever they like, make it their problem again.

[Katman]

Well I'm pleased to see that the New Zealand government is pledging 3 million dollars to support the plight of the refugees.

(And I'm mildly amused at the number of dumb fucks on here that seem more interested in wanking on about all their little guns).

[Graystone]

So is Australia right to ignore the plight of the Manus Island refugees or should action be taken to at least ensure their health and safety?

Legally, or morally? If you think morally, perhaps better question your own rights. Do you have more right to help directly, or to impose your morals on others to get them to help directly?

[eldog]

So is Australia right to ignore the plight of the Manus Island refugees or should action be taken to at least ensure their health and safety?

Only 2 choices?

[nzspokes]

Well I'm pleased to see that the New Zealand government is pledging 3 million dollars to support the plight of the refugees.

(And I'm mildly amused at the number of dumb fucks on here that seem more interested in wanking on about all their little guns).

Shame the Govt cant be fucked to spend that money to feed its own citizens on its own soil that cant feed themselves.

But I guess that wont make the world press now would it.

[AllanB]

Unfortunately I've been seeing this shit all my 52 years so I've become shockingly immune to such situations.

The world starves while I sip on a fine wine.

Pathetically sad really.

[Katman]

Shame the Govt cant be fucked to spend that money to feed its own citizens on its own soil that cant feed themselves.

But I guess that wont make the world press now would it.

Would you rather we spent another 26 million on another flag referendum?

Or gave another 11.5 million to a shady Saudi sheep farmer?

[Graystone]

Only 2 choices?


Would you rather we spent another 26 million on another flag referendum?

Well it did have more choices...

[AllanB]

Would you rather we spent another 26 million on another flag referendum?


I really wanted a new flag. Stupid Pommy piece of shit lame flag.

[Katman]

I really wanted a new flag. Stupid Pommy piece of shit lame flag.

I, on the other hand, didn't give a fuck.

And I thought the 26 million was a complete waste of money.

[AllanB]

I, on the other hand, didn't give a fuck.

And I thought the 26 million was a complete waste of money.

The cost was rather impressive, and surprising. Clearly a lot of people got rich out of the process.

[eldog]

What are other countries doing?

surely this isn’t Australia/nz Problem.

3m, how much gets to them?
Should we send 3m in nz made goods?
how much booze, piss and ciggies should we include?
Probably spend 1m in goods, 1m in getting it there and 1/2 of it actually gets used. Rest is sold.....
and what’s changed?

katmans agenda is? Give him 3m and see what happens?

[scott411]

The bit that you have to convince me of - is that it was my problem in the first place - if that is the case, then they are responsible. If not, then they are not.

And from my understanding - Those on the Island were given the choice of:

Return to where you came.
Settle in PNG.
Settle somewhere else.

Yet, for some reason they aren't happy with that, they want to get to Australia, at which point - they aren't refugees, they are Economic Migrants.

this is the part that the media is really not saying that much, the detainees have choices where to go and be looked after, but its not where they want to go, so they are protesting,

its been interesting listening to talk back on this issue this week, a number of ex security guards and other staff from the Manus island, they dont seem to have much sympathy for them and tell some horrific stories,

[FatMax]

Shame the Govt cant be fucked to spend that money to feed its own citizens on its own soil that cant feed themselves.

But I guess that wont make the world press now would it.

Stupid idea. $3M would solve nothing.

Feed the refugees to the citizens that cant feed themselves, solves all the problems.

Either that or encourage these 'citizens' to get off their behinds and grow something, or eat the neighbours cat, or quit smoking and use that money for groceries.....either way take responsibility for themselves.

Its the 'give the money to the lazy gits' attitude that makes you refugees in your own country.

And Cassina is a legend, you lot are just a bunch of bullies

[Oakie]

Well I'm pleased to see that the New Zealand government is pledging 3 million dollars to support the plight of the refugees.
Well it's been a funny old week and here I am near the end of it agreeing with Katman. Wonder what marvels the weekend will bring?

[Swoop]

Cassina is a legend

These "assylum seekers" can join the queue of people applying to come here in a systematic and legal manner, not jump the queue like they want to. Dopey cunt Taxcinda is playing into their lap perfectly though.
Three million would help a lot of our homeless or "poverty stricken youth" though.

I have to agree that Miss Cassina is a Leg end. = An ankle. Three feet lower than a cunt.

[Katman]

These "assylum seekers" can join the queue of people applying to come here in a systematic and legal manner

And they should be provided with the basic necessities of life while doing so.

[pritch]

I can see what the Oz govt is afraid of. If the Manus Island people come here, as soon as they get citizenship they will head back to Oz.

A few decades ago NZ accepted a wave of refugees from Vietnam, several families came to this town. With one exception as soon as the families got NZ citizenship they went to Sydney, pooled their resources, and opened a restaurant.

The one exception is interesting too. The oldest son went to university to get an engineering degree while dad and the other two brothers worked a bakery. After dad retired the two sons worked the bakery until recently when the older of the two went to South Australia to manage a farm they had bought. Last time I looked son #3 still runs the bakery.

[Katman]

I can see what the Oz govt is afraid of.

With one exception as soon as the families got NZ citizenship they went to Sydney, pooled their resources, and opened a restaurant.

And how is that a drain on the Australian taxpayers?

[Grumph]

And how is that a drain on the Australian taxpayers?

Given that they went there as NZ citizens it's not. But this is the type of case that has both the kiwi bashers and the traditional "white Australia" consevatives screaming about a back door to Australia.
You've got to wonder if kiwis would be treated better in Oz if immigrants had to live in NZ for a minimum period of, oh, say a generation before they could go to OZ.
Probably nothing less would satisfy the hard line conservatives in Oz. Bastards.

[Katman]

Given that they went there as NZ citizens it's not. But this is the type of case that has both the kiwi bashers and the traditional "white Australia" consevatives screaming about a back door to Australia.
You've got to wonder if kiwis would be treated better in Oz if immigrants had to live in NZ for a minimum period of, oh, say a generation before they could go to OZ.
Probably nothing less would satisfy the hard line conservatives in Oz. Bastards.

So maybe what the Australian government is 'afraid of' (to quote pritch) is nothing more than latent xenophobia.

[Grumph]

So maybe what the Australian government is 'afraid of' (to quote pritch) is nothing more than latent zenophobia.

Not so latent after generations of a "white Australia" policy from successive governments.

[Katman]

Not so latent after generations of a "white Australia" policy from successive governments.

I think you're absolutely right.

So basically, they don't want any refugees there because they don't much like foreigners.

Australia has become as putrid as America.

[TheDemonLord]

And they should be provided with the basic necessities of life while doing so.

Why?

Do they not have arms, legs and Agency to get those basics themselves?

How did they survive for all the years before?

[Katman]

Why?

Once again - I expected nothing less of you.

[Swoop]

And they should be provided with the basic necessities of life while doing so.

Which are in the "new" centre which they don't like.
Possibly the air-con in each building is too cold?

[Ocean1]

And they should be provided with the basic necessities of life while doing so.

And as someone for whom such sacrifices are obviously paramount to the foundation of your own ethics, what was your last contribution to the effort?

[Katman]

And as someone for whom such sacrifices are obviously paramount to the foundation of your own ethics, what was your last contribution to the effort?

My contribution is a small part of the 3 million dollars.

[TheDemonLord]

I think you're absolutely right.

So basically, they don't want any refugees there because they don't much like foreigners.

Australia has become as putrid as America.

I think you are over reaching certain things.

There's a couple of factors that you are willfully ignoring:

1: People don't like Queue jumpers.

Australia has a strict immigration policy (as is their want and right) and there is a view that some of the people claiming refugee/asylum status aren't as in-danger as they claim, they are trying to use this to cover the fact they are economic Migrants who would not be able to meet the immigration standards otherwise.

Whilst you and I can argue till the cows come home on this point - but there is one simple fact - they were offered 2 alternatives - which they didn't want, because they wanted to go to Australia.

People see that fact and say "well, you aren't genuine Refugees/Asylum Seekers - you are Economic Migrants and you want to break the rules and queue jump - fuck off"

2: People don't like people who don't integrate.

This one is a little more nuanced and tricky. Most people enjoy the positive contributions of other Cultures - the great British love of Curry and the great Indian love of Cricket are probably the 2 best examples. What irks people, is when they group together, don't learn the language and don't adopt some of the Key values held by our society.

The Key values is where it gets really tricky - some examples might be respect for the rule of common law - which I think is a deeply held belief amongst all the English speaking countries. Whilst we might all complain about speeding tickets and alike - you and I probably hold a very similar view on the aspects of Common Law. Yet, there are groups that would want to usurp this with an alternate - the best example being Sharia law, either by stealth (Sharia courts) or by outright campaigning for it.

And where it really gets interesting is that there is a belief (and one that has a very solid grounding in history) that the English legal system (for all it's flaws) has been what has helped those countries that adopted it wholly to be the beacons of success, whilst other countries that were at one point our intellectual peers or even intellectual superiors, that held different legal systems, declined.

Other things might be the principle of Women's rights - regardless of whether you are a blue haired Feminazi, or an ardent anti-feminist - Acid attacks, Sati, Honor killings, FGM etc. etc. have no place in our Society.

Now on that note - Integration does not mean leaving your own culture at the door - far from it - I remember in my childhood having great fun celebrating Diwali with my Hindu friends - and it's here that I think we see how Multiculturalism should work - there are some key principles that are fundamental to a society, and anyone coming into that society must adopt. That is integration - everything else that is not contrary to these key principles - is absolutely fine. You can still have your festivals, your Saris, Turbans etc.

[TheDemonLord]

Once again - I expected nothing less of you.

But you must answer the challenge - are they incapable of Fending for themselves? They managed to do so for a long enough time before they tried to illegally enter Australia - so I ask - Why?

[Katman]

But you must answer the challenge...

:killingme

[Banditbandit]

Which are in the "new" centre which they don't like.
Possibly the air-con in each building is too cold?

Probably because it has no security fences and no security guards - and the locals don't want them there and could attack and kill them?

After all - Australia dumped these people on Manus Island - the locals had no say in this and do not want them either.

[Banditbandit]

But you must answer the challenge - are they incapable of Fending for themselves? They managed to do so for a long enough time before they tried to illegally enter Australia - so I ask - Why?

It has not been proven that they tried to enter Australia illegally - refugees are not illegals .. They claimed Refugee status - Australia, against International Law, refused to even look at that request - and dumped them on Manus Island.

They did manage to fend for themselves up to now - but outside the detention centre they face an armed and hostile bunch of locals ..

[Ocean1]

My contribution is a small part of the 3 million dollars.

Under a dollar then.

You greedy hypocritical cunt.

[Katman]

Under a dollar then.

You greedy hypocritical cunt.

The difference between you and I is obviously that I don't begrudge that dollar.

[Ocean1]

But you must answer the challenge -

And you base this on which particular overwhelmingly erudite collection of katflap discourse to date?

[Ocean1]

The difference between you and I is obviously that I don't begrudge that dollar.

No, you have no idea what my contribution has been, consolidated tax funded or otherwise.

The difference is that you're a hypocrite.

[Ocean1]

They claimed Refugee status -
..

Destroying any evidence to the contrary in the process. :laugh:

Get real, dude, the vast majority of them are economic refugees.

[TheDemonLord]

:killingme

What is it that you say?

Ah yes.


Once again - I expected nothing less of you.

[TheDemonLord]

It has not been proven that they tried to enter Australia illegally - refugees are not illegals .. They claimed Refugee status - Australia, against International Law, refused to even look at that request - and dumped them on Manus Island.

They did manage to fend for themselves up to now - but outside the detention centre they face an armed and hostile bunch of locals ..

I agree that the Locals aren't particularly keen on them (yet, I don't see anyone calling the Papua New Guineans Racist Xenophobes... Funny that... Guess it's only ol' Whitey that can be racist and Xenophobic...) - but as part of the deal they had the choice of "Another country" - that wasn't Australia.

They didn't take up this offer. This then begs the question, why not?

If you are a genuine refugee, fleeing for your life, then surely being offered a country that is on an equal economic footing as the one you came from, but in a state of peace is all that you require.

If, howver, you reject that - the implication is that you are moving not because you are scared for your life - but because you want something better.

If you are migrating because you want something better - you're an Economic Migrant.

What Australia did - I don't 100% agree with, however, seeing the fallout from Angele Merkles policies - I take it as the lesser of 2 evils. It sent a clear message that arriving in a leaky boat, with a sob story wasn't going to automatically grant you entry - and we didn't see the waves of migrants after that incident, that we did in Europe.

[TheDemonLord]

And you base this on which particular overwhelmingly erudite collection of katflap discourse to date?

It's about showing his true colours and refusal to answer questions that refute the rhetoric he spews.

[FatMax]

I think you're absolutely right.

So basically, they don't want any refugees there because they don't much like foreigners.



Who does, bloody Germans

[Katman]

Get real, dude, the vast majority of them are economic refugees.

And you can back that statement up with facts, can you?

[TheDemonLord]

And you can back that statement up with facts, can you?

Yes... The actions of the Migrants - they didn't want to go to another country, they wanted to go to Australia.

As soon as you turn down a safe country, and indicate a preference for one specific country, especially when that country is First world with desirable living conditions - you aren't a refugee, you're an economic Migrant.

[Ocean1]

And you can back that statement up with facts, can you?

Probably. But why would I bother? Not only does relevant data utterly fail to change your misanthropic opinions but you fail to back your hypocritical gobshite up every single chance you're given.

TLDR? Fuck off you whining hypocrite.

[pritch]

And how is that a drain on the Australian taxpayers?

Where did that come from? It isn't, they would be more productive than the average ocker. But the Australian Govt does not want boat people at any price whether direct from Asia - or via NZ

[Katman]

Probably. But why would I bother?

So that's a 'no' then.

[Katman]

Where did that come from? It isn't, they would be more productive than the average ocker. But the Australian Govt does not want boat people at any price whether direct from Asia - or via NZ

Hence my suggestion that it comes down to nothing but xenophobia.

[pritch]

Hence my suggestion that it comes down to nothing but xenophobia.

Or racism? They used to have a "white austraila" policy. Many of them would probably prefer that they still had one.

[Oakie]

Or racism? They used to have a "white austraila" policy. Many of them would probably prefer that they still had one.

You only need to look at how much traction Pauline Hanson gets to agree with that.

[Katman]

Or racism?

You'd best let TDL know.

I'm sure he'd hate to be seen supporting a policy that's based on racism.

[Ocean1]

So that's a 'no' then.

From you it obviously is.

But like I said, you comprehension fail by default, anyone else would have at least read and understood the synopsis: Fuck off you whining hypocrite.

Get that far this time did you? Or are you too busy editing inconvenient questions out of quotes?

[mashman]

Which are in the "new" centre which they don't like.
Possibly the air-con in each building is too cold?

bwaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... They have air-conditioning, they should be grateful that all that costs them is their freedom and their human rights. And people wonder why these guys have the potential to go feral.

[Berries]

So anyway, looking for a summer holiday and am over Fiji and the Cook Islands. Any recommendations for things to do on Manus?

[Graystone]

The difference between you and I is obviously that I don't begrudge that dollar.

Have you seriously not provided any other sort of aid?

[Katman]

Have you seriously not provided any other sort of aid?

What would you suggest?

A $20 note in an envelope addressed 'To whom it may concern, Manus Island'?

[Graystone]

What would you suggest?

A $20 note in an envelope addressed 'To whom it may concern, Manus Island'?

Red cross is probably a better start, or the salvation army, both have been active in this issue. There's also give-a-little campaigns and the like, you have a lot of options, none of which require this soapbox spectacle.

Perhaps you should think on the first question I asked you in regards to whether Aus should help "Legally, or morally? If you think morally, perhaps better question your own rights. Do you have more right to help directly, or to impose your morals on others to get them to help directly?"

[Katman]

Red cross is probably a better start, or the salvation army, both have been active in this issue. There's also give-a-little campaigns and the like

I'm confident that New Zealand's 3 million dollar aid package will achieve considerably more.

[Graystone]

I'm confident that New Zealand's 3 million dollar aid package will achieve considerably more.

Why not both?

I mean, let's review, you start this thread and berate other for not believing as you do, yet believing as you does not provide them any more benefit than we do anyway, less in some cases. What's this all about, just an egotistical soap box bleat session?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I say we take off and nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

[Katman]

Why not both?

I mean, let's review, you start this thread and berate other for not believing as you do, yet believing as you does not provide them any more benefit than we do anyway, less in some cases. What's this all about, just an egotistical soap box bleat session?

I certainly haven't made any demands that anyone pull their wallet out and make an individual donation.

That would be you, Ocean and Lardboy.

[Graystone]

I certainly haven't made any demands that anyone pull their wallet out and make an individual donation.

That would be you, Ocean and Lardboy.

That's my point, you've done nothing to help them at all. Nor are you trying to, so what is this thread about?

[Katman]

That's my point, you've done nothing to help them at all. Nor are you trying to, so what is this thread about?

Well it started as a means of pointing out Australia's repugnant handling of this situation.

You seem determined to guide it towards your own agenda though.

[Graystone]

Well it started as a means of pointing out Australia's repugnant handling of this situation.

You seem determined to guide it towards your own agenda though.

Are you handling it any better?

Right, that nefarious agenda of getting people to think about the difference between slacktivism and actual help, how dare I ruin your soapbox with such selfish notions...

[Ocean1]

Well it started as a means of pointing out Australia's repugnant handling of this situation.

You seem determined to guide it towards your own agenda though.

I think he's just pointing out that you're a fucking hypocrite.

[Katman]

Right, that nefarious agenda of getting people to think about the difference between slacktivism and actual help, how dare I ruin your soapbox with such selfish notions...

Being supportive of New Zealand's offer of aid is my contribution.

What's yours?

[Graystone]

Being supportive of New Zealand's offer of aid is my contribution.

What's yours?

Not supporting the aid offer results in the same contribution, so that plus whatever percentage of my Red Cross donations have gone to this.

Now you should consider who the refugees would prefer, do you think your slacktivism means anything to them?

[Katman]

Now you should consider who the refugees would prefer

Really? You think I should consider who the refugees would prefer between you and me?

Are you berkboy's equally retarded twin?

[Graystone]

Really? You think I should consider who the refugees would prefer between you and me?

Are you berkboy's twin?

do you think your slactivism means anything to them?

[Katman]

do you think your slactivism means anything to them?

I don't think I mean anything to them.

What an incredibly silly question.

[Trade_nancy]

Jacinda would be better advised spending 3 mill of our money fullfilling her life's ambition to rid the streets of NZ of homeless people and housing them. Instead she is meddling in another country's affairs.
3 mill would house quite a few needy NZ kids for a while at least. She is pumped with adrenaline and on a white knight crusade. She will take a tumble into the shit on the deck very soon. Hopefully she will emerge a more rational and balanced prime minister and put to one side - for now anyway - the mantra of world saviour she is trying too hard to display.

[Woodman]

so what is this thread about?


Katman..............

[TheDemonLord]

You'd best let TDL know.

I'm sure he'd hate to be seen supporting a policy that's based on racism.

A policy that hasn't been in effect for over 40 years?

Have you been able to catch those straws yet, or are you still flailing upon your soapbox of slacktivist hypocrisy?

However - if it makes you happy - for sure, there are racists in Australia - just like there are racists everywhere. And for sure, those people will find any excuse to try and discourage people from other groups from coming to Aus.

That said, it does not follow that every critique that is levelled against a group is levelled based purely on Race.

Some people might have an issue with ghettoisation and a failure to integrate into Australian society and accept the core Australian values.

[Katman]

A policy that hasn't been in effect for over 40 years?

The policy of ignoring the plight of refugees due to inherent xenophobia.

Comprehension's not your strongpoint, is it?

[Graystone]

Katman..............

Yeh he seems like a bit of a knob tbh.

[TheDemonLord]

The policy of ignoring the plight of refugees due to inherent xenophobia.

Comprehension's not your strongpoint, is it?

You mean like the Kurdish 'Refugees' who came from Iraq, all the way to Indonesia, then onto a boat to come to Australia?

If they were genuine Refugees - why not stay in Indonesia? It's a country free from Wars, is majority Islamic, has Democratic elections and a reasonably productive Economy.

And yet, once being safe in Indonesia - they then risked a journey to Australia...

Not forgetting of course that the Boat journey to Australia was an illegal act - so intercepting them, detaining them and preventing them from illegally setting foot in Australia has nothing to do with Xenophobia....

Perhaps you should learn to read before critiquing the comprehension of others...

[Katman]

However - if it makes you happy - for sure, there are racists in Australia - just like there are racists everywhere. And for sure, those people will find any excuse to try and discourage people from other groups from coming to Aus.

That said, it does not follow that every critique that is levelled against a group is levelled based purely on Race.

Some people might have an issue with ghettoisation and a failure to integrate into Australian society and accept the core Australian values.

Have you ever lived in Australia?

[Katman]

Katman..............

Well there seems to be a concerted effort to make the thread all about me - but it's sure as fuck not coming from me.

[TheDemonLord]

Have you ever lived in Australia?

Would it make a difference if I had?

[Katman]

Would it make a difference if I had?

Dude, it wasn't a trick question.

I'm just wondering what first hand knowledge you have of the extent of Australia's underlying racism.

[Woodman]

Well there seems to be a concerted effort to make the thread all about me - but it's sure as fuck not coming from me.

My mistake......

[mashman]

My mistake......

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaME

[Swoop]

It has not been proven that they tried to enter Australia illegally - refugees are not illegals .. They claimed Refugee status - Australia, against International Law, refused to even look at that request - and dumped them on Manus Island.
The results of the "refugee" detention centres located in Australia might have had something to do with this. Rioting and breaking out. Australia simply located these people remotely so that genuine cases could be processed further.
There is an accepted procedure to go through if a person wants to become an Australian citizen (apart from removal of the brain).

I mean, let's review, you start this thread and berate other for not believing as you do, yet believing as you does not provide them any more benefit than we do anyway, less in some cases. What's this all about, just an egotistical soap box bleat session?
No surprises there. Standard procedure.
You must think like SuckMyCockMan does or otherwise his pansy-arsed red-rep pencil will come out.

That's my point, you've done nothing to help them at all. Nor are you trying to, so what is this thread about?
Stroking his E-penis.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, it wasn't a trick question.

I'm just wondering what first hand knowledge you have of the extent of Australia's underlying racism.

It was, however, a trick answer:

Assume I haven't - you'd claim distinct knowledge of Australian Racism, in order to maintain your narrative
Assume I have - you'd claim that my experience isn't indicative of wider Australian culture, in order to maintain your narrative

The point however, was not whether or not there are Racists in Australia, the point was that people can have objections to Migrants, they can echo statements made by dyed-in-the-wool racists about Immigration, and still not be racist.

[Katman]

The point however, was not whether or not there are Racists in Australia, the point was that people can have objections to Migrants, they can echo statements made by dyed-in-the-wool racists about Immigration, and still not be racist.

Australia was built on racism.

Their treatment of their own Aboriginal people makes Pakeha and Maori look like veritable blood brothers in comparison.

[TheDemonLord]

Australia was built on racism.

Their treatment of their own Aboriginal people makes Pakeha and Maori look like veritable blood brothers in comparison.

If you are going to claim that, using that reasoning - then EVERY country was built on Racism.

[Katman]

If you are going to claim that, using that reasoning - then EVERY country was built on Racism.

Perhaps - but to greatly varying degrees.

However, it's Australia who has abandoned these refugees.

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps - but to greatly varying degrees.

And what happened in Australia, as despicable as it was, was par-for-the-course. Whether it be skirmishing tribes in the African plains, The Maori exterminating the Moriori or countries conquering an Empire.

The only varying degree is not the amount of Racism, but the amount of Mechanization.


However, it's Australia who has given these illegal Economic Migrants options, but they didn't like them, because they want to come to Australia as Economic Migrants.

Fixed for you.

[Katman]

Fixed for you.

Fuck off shitforbrains - it didn't need fixing.

Even the Australian government refers to them as refugees and asylum seekers.

[TheDemonLord]

Fuck off shitforbrains - it didn't need fixing.

Even the Australian government refers to them as refugees and asylum seekers.

Then why did they leave a safe country that was free from war to get to Australia (Indonesia)?
Then why did they not accept the offer of being settled in PNG or an alternative safe country?

These are the actions of Economic Migrants and not genuine Asylum seekers/refugees.

Governments tend to be quite reluctant to call Economic Migrants as such in public.

[Katman]

Then why did they not accept the offer of being settled in PNG or an alternative safe country?

Possibly because they don't feel their safety could be ensured in PNG.

After all, one of the defining tenets of 'asylum' is the offer of protection and safety.

And which 'alternative safe country' were they offered resettlement in?

[TheDemonLord]

Possibly because they don't feel their safety could be ensured in PNG.

After all, one of the defining tenets of 'asylum' is the offer of protection and safety.

Well, PNG doesn't have any active conflicts, unless you are referring to the actions of some of the PNG locals around the camps.

Interesting how you don't call them Racist Xenophobes for what they've done...


And which 'alternative safe country' were they offered resettlement in?

I'm sure as the most well read and informed source on all of KB you would know....

(that's Sarcasm btw)

But since you asked a question - one option that was discussed was to go to the US (and I believe some did go), but the final deal was a safe third country that isn't Australia.

Which could be anywhere that will take them.

But of course, that wasn't good enough - they wanted to go to Australia...

[Katman]

Well, PNG doesn't have any active conflicts, unless you are referring to the actions of some of the PNG locals around the camps.

Interesting how you don't call them Racist Xenophobes for what they've done...



I'm sure as the most well read and informed source on all of KB you would know....

(that's Sarcasm btw)

But since you asked a question - one option that was discussed was to go to the US (and I believe some did go), but the final deal was a safe third country that isn't Australia.

Which could be anywhere that will take them.

But of course, that wasn't good enough - they wanted to go to Australia...

The American resettlement is still being negotiated.

Where was this other 'safe third country'?

[TheDemonLord]

The American resettlement is still being negotiated.

Where was this other 'safe third country'?

Look at a map - look at the things with names and borders around them - any of those, except the big one that says "AUSTRALIA" - that is where it is.

[Katman]

Look at a map - look at the things with names and borders around them - any of those, except the big one that says "AUSTRALIA" - that is where it is.

Do you actually think that's how issues of this nature are resolved?

[Graystone]

Do you actually think that's how issues of this nature are resolved?

How do you think issues of this nature are resolved?

[TheDemonLord]

Do you actually think that's how issues of this nature are resolved?

Would you like to keep shifting the Goal posts?


They are free to go anywhere they like - so long as it's not Australia. Whether the destination country will accept them is a matter between the Individual and the destinations Immigration department.

[Katman]

How do you think issues of this nature are resolved?

Well you don't just point at a map and say "anywhere that's not Australia".

[TheDemonLord]

How do you think issues of this nature are resolved?

By deeply racist and Xenophobic policies*, controlled by the IMF, run by the Jews, which carried out 9/11 with controlled demolitions and fabricated the Holocaust.


*but only if it they are white

[TheDemonLord]

Well you don't just point at a map and say "anywhere that's not Australia".

Except, you can.

"You can't come into Australia"
"but where shall I go?"
"Anywhere that isn't Australia"

[Katman]

And it goes beyond "anywhere that's not Australia".

The amoral cunts don't even want them coming to New Zealand.

[Katman]

Except, you can.

"You can't come into Australia"
"but where shall I go?"
"Anywhere that isn't Australia"

You should probable read up on International Law.

[TheDemonLord]

You should probable read up on International Law.

I actually did a spot of riding about the history of the so-called first safe country principle and it's origins.

Rather interesting.

[Katman]

I actually did a spot of riding about the history of the so-called first safe country principle and it's origins.

Rather interesting.

I sure the horseies kept you amused for hours.

Did you understand any of what you read though?

[TheDemonLord]

And it goes beyond "anywhere that's not Australia".

The amoral cunts don't even want them coming to New Zealand.

What makes you think that anyone who doesn't wish them to come here is Amoral?

Furthermore - what makes you think that you are in any position to judge Morality?

[Graystone]

Well you don't just point at a map and say "anywhere that's not Australia".

So what do you* do?





*Not you specifically, obviously.

[Katman]

What makes you think that anyone who doesn't wish them to come here is Amoral?

Furthermore - what makes you think that you are in any position to judge Morality?

The amoral cunts I'm referring to is Australia since they are adamant they don't want the refugees coming to New Zealand regardless of any vetting or application process.

But feel free to include yourself in that group if you feel comfortable with it.

[Graystone]

Furthermore - what makes you think that you are in any position to judge Morality?

Tried that on page one, such an introspective would be hugely beneficial to anyone thinking about this sort of topic.


Legally, or morally? If you think morally, perhaps better question your own rights. Do you have more right to help directly, or to impose your morals on others to get them to help directly?

Didn't get any response though...

[TheDemonLord]

I sure the horseies kept you amused for hours.

Did you understand any of what you read though?

Well, the Horseies are a greater intellectual challenge than your standard drivel - so yes, yes they did.

It's a very interesting read - the key points of contention are around a reading of the 1951 Geneva Refugee rules, and whether an implication within the text is an imperative (as many right wing/anti-immigration pundits would put forward) or a suggestion as some other interpretations hold it.

There's a book written by a Cambridge law professor which (judging by the citations) holds that it is an Imperitive and that First Safe country rules do apply, there was another published law paper (from Michigan University) that also cited the Cambridge book, arguing that it isn't an absolute.

One thing, however is clear is that in the current legislation there is no official guideline for determining who is an Economic Migrant vs Refugee, there are rules for determining refugee status - but they are very broad and very nebulous - for example, if there was a skirmish in the South Island, I could potentially claim refugee status and move elsewhere.

[TheDemonLord]

The amoral cunts I'm referring to is Australia since they are adamant they don't want the refugees coming to New Zealand regardless of any vetting or application process.

But feel free to include yourself in that group if you feel comfortable with it.

You should read my statement again - I didn't make any reference to any groups, nor did I make any reference to my membership (or lack-thereof) to said groups.

But again - what makes you think that their opposition comes from a position of Amorality?
And what qualifies you to be the arbiter of said morality?

[Katman]

One thing, however is clear is that in the current legislation there is no official guideline for determining who is an Economic Migrant vs Refugee.

Well you clearly consider yourself to be an expert in that matter.

You should probably write a book about it.

[husaberg]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d1/d1acc30d66b7444519e6b1abbf105514775a106ac2fefd27e2 bf178d149fc325.jpg

[TheDemonLord]

Well you clearly consider yourself to be an expert in that matter.

You should probably write a book about it.

Awwww what's the matter - are you upset that the legal documents are a little bit more complex than "The Conspiracy Cat, in the IMF hat"...

I read what was available - and it's a very complex issue - with the legislation open to several plausible interpretations, that was written 50 years ago with a post WW2 view of Conflict.

[Katman]

Awwww what's the matter - are you upset that the legal documents are a little bit more complex than "The Conspiracy Cat, in the IMF hat"...

I read what was available - and it's a very complex issue - with the legislation open to several plausible interpretations, that was written 50 years ago with a post WW2 view of Conflict.

So how can you be so certain that these people are nothing but economic migrants?

[TheDemonLord]

So how can you be so certain that these people are nothing but economic migrants?

Their actions paint them as such - namely that they have refused to go anywhere except Australia, but it is not a legal judgement.

If all you've got is to try and dishonestly conflate one thing with another - then what does that say about the solidity of your position...

[Katman]

Their actions paint them as such - namely that they have refused to go anywhere except Australia, but it is not a legal judgement.

So on one hand you have the fact that there's no clear definition of what constitutes an economic migrant versus a refugee and on the other hand you have the fact that you know absolutely nothing about any of these individual's personal circumstances - but you're still happy to label them as economic migrants even though the Australian government doesn't even refer to them as such.

Is there no limit to your stupidity?

Thank fuck dumb cunts like you don't get to handle International Law.

[husaberg]

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/c4/9b/bb/c49bbbffc9fdbedf60a1df20b0fd58e4--asd-attention-seeking.jpg (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjr-KbPncrXAhXCJ5QKHb1PBUcQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F341007 003006120661%2F&psig=AOvVaw1PBgyG_-_di6yyLcgoL4E2&ust=1511166817600211)

[TheDemonLord]

So on one hand you have the fact that there's no clear Legal definition of what constitutes an economic migrant versus a refugee

First up - I've amended your post because you keep trying to pull a deliberate bait-and-switch - by asserting there is no legal definition, therefore there is no definition at all.

Kinda telling that you have to resort to such fallacious tactics...

Do you understand that concepts can (and indeed must) exist in society before being codified in Law right?

So like before 1993, Do you think Trans people existed? Cause by your argument, they didn't exist. Unless, of course, you wish to concede that Society can have a very well informed definition of things that predates a legal definition (hint - one drives the other).

And so by using a societal definition - The fact is clear.


and on the other hand you have the fact that you know absolutely nothing about any of these individual's personal circumstances

I don't need to - they left a Safe country, where there was no active or prior conflicts, where they share many cultural values, in order to come to Australia.

When being given an alternative (PNG or anywhere that is safe, but not Australia) they refused. Ye shall know them by their fruits.


but you're still happy to label them as economic migrants even though the Australian government doesn't even refer to them as such.

See Societal vs Legal definition above, or alternatively - go back to reading "Noddy in conspiracyland"


Is there no limit to your stupidity?

Says the person who can't tell the difference between a legal definition and a societal one


Thank fuck dumb cunts like you don't get to handle International Law.

Well, I'd be a damn sight more equipped than you - see above and your trouble with definitions.

They are kinda important in Law...

[Katman]

First up - I've amended your post because you keep trying to pull a deliberate bait-and-switch - by asserting there is no legal definition, therefore there is no definition at all.

Kinda telling that you have to resort to such fallacious tactics...

Do you understand that concepts can (and indeed must) exist in society before being codified in Law right?

So like before 1993, Do you think Trans people existed? Cause by your argument, they didn't exist. Unless, of course, you wish to concede that Society can have a very well informed definition of things that predates a legal definition (hint - one drives the other).

Dude, fuck off with your autism.

The clear fact is that if society finds itself in a position of needing to deal with refugees then it should be expected to do so lawfully.

[husaberg]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/02/89/d8/0289d8a8f8021b51ac04ee25b2873460.jpg (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjygam4r8rXAhWHE7wKHdXdDE4QjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F398639 004508777464%2F&psig=AOvVaw38TwVo06PA-KvrQ_pgYcnv&ust=1511171645730852)

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, fuck off with your autism.

The clear fact is that if society finds itself in a position of needing to deal with refugees then it should be expected to do so lawfully.

So why didn't Indonesia deal with them Lawfully?

Australia didn't violate the principle of forcing them back to the country of origin - which is all they are required to do, in order to act lawfully under international law.

[Katman]

So why didn't Indonesia deal with them Lawfully?

Indonesia is not a signatory to the Refugees Convention and as such, accepts no obligation to allow refugees to permanently resettle there.

Refugees are registered there (with no legal rights) and often detained until they eventually leave to make their own way to a third country.

Australia, on the other hand, is a signatory - and as such, has certain obligations to fulfill.

[Katman]

Australia didn't violate the principle of forcing them back to the country of origin - which is all they are required to do, in order to act lawfully under international law.

You should probably read Article 34 of the Convention.

[Katman]

And the Australian Medical Association is now having to lobby their own government to allow doctors in to provide medical care for the refugees.

[Jeff Sichoe]

If you are a young, healthy, male - leaving your country (which may be in strife) for increased economic possibilities - you should fuck off and fix your own shitty country before shitting up ours.

If you are a woman or child - we'll take you with open arms as long as you promise (and show) assimilation.

[Katman]

If you are a young, healthy, male - leaving your country (which may be in strife) for increased economic possibilities - you should fuck off and fix your own shitty country before shitting up ours.

How many war zones have you lived in?

[Pickle]

All I see are a bunch of people who were stopped at the border illegally trying to get into Australia that just happened to arrive by boat, no identification as to who they are, where they are from & then demanding to be treated as refugees, they were given accommodation, food etc until the government could establish who they were. they have been given alternative accommodation but have refused to go, they have trashed, burnt their current buildings, upset the locals. Put them on their boats & send them back to where they came from Oh that's right the boats were scuttled & are now on the bottom of the ocean, send them all back, don't want them here in Australia, they are trouble do not want to be part of Australia. Look at the so called refugees that were let into Australia when Rudd, Gillard, Rudd were in - none working, all receiving benefits, given housing even though there is a huge waiting list for people here, all commiting crimes & you wonder why no-one wants them here

[Katman]

All I see are a bunch of people who were stopped at the border illegally trying to get into Australia that just happened to arrive by boat, no identification as to who they are, where they are from & then demanding to be treated as refugees, they were given accommodation, food etc until the government could establish who they were. they have been given alternative accommodation but have refused to go, they have trashed, burnt their current buildings, upset the locals. Put them on their boats & send them back to where they came from Oh that's right the boats were scuttled & are now on the bottom of the ocean, send them all back, don't want them here in Australia, they are trouble do not want to be part of Australia. Look at the so called refugees that were let into Australia when Rudd, Gillard, Rudd were in - none working, all receiving benefits, given housing even though there is a huge waiting list for people here, all commiting crimes & you wonder why no-one wants them here

Spoken like a true racist Aussie.

[Pickle]

Spoken like a true racist Aussie.

I'm actually a Kiwi living in Aussie

[eldog]

Katman wants to set up a refugee centre in Taupo. Go for it I say.
Katman in charge of course....
Katmans agenda ......

[Pickle]

Have them live in his neighborhood see how long he wants to be nice to them, send them all packing

[Pickle]

How many people here have had anything to do with these illegals?
Katman have you ever lived in Aussie? if not what's it got to do with you, stop being a dickhead as attitudes like your's will just invite more boats to arrive, neither country wants that or can afford it

[Ocean1]

Katman wants to set up a refugee centre in Taupo. Go for it I say.
Katman in charge of course....

What katflap wants is to blame everyone else for random shit he knows fuck all about. He thinks it makes him look virtuous, and his many, many personal bogymen look bad.

Apparently he's not aware that blaming everyone else for shit while doing fuck all about it himself sorta makes him more to blame than anyone else. Not to mention a raging fucking hypocrite.

[Pickle]

Asylum seekers have claimed more than $10,000,000 in government handouts they were not entitled to, with figures also showing that some families had been transferring cash overseas. #9Today

This just off the press, tip of the iceberg. How about the so called refugees who claimed if they returned to their country they would be killed, then went there on holiday once they got into Australia all payed for by the Aussie taxpayer, cancel their Visa's

[Katman]

I'm actually a Kiwi living in Aussie

Then you've assimilated remarkably well.

[Katman]

Katman have you ever lived in Aussie?

Sydney for 3 years.

I know just how ugly racist Aussies can be.

Now ask TheDemonLard the same question. See if he'll at least give you a straight answer.

[husaberg]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OwZpB3Y0V70/hqdefault.jpg (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_3KbfzczXAhUOhrwKHdZKBNYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DOw ZpB3Y0V70&psig=AOvVaw14nTQ25zlHfMvv5OwBbeTT&ust=1511248554033008)

[Katman]

And if you're wondering why you're not hearing anything much from the media about this humanitarian crisis......

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/2017/11/manus-island-australia-pulling-media-strings-171118083724605.html

[Katman]

And just as another example of how fucked up the Australian government is......

Recently they (supposedly) sent humanitarian aid to Yemen, but it just so happens that the Australian Navy is taking part in a military exercise with the Saudi Navy in the same area where Saudi Arabia are blockading Yemen.

So effectively the Australian Navy is helping to block supplies reaching Yemen that have been sent by the Australian government.

[Viking01]

https://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-whats-going-on-at-manus-island-87354

https://theconversation.com/when-the-us-locked-up-white-australian-immigrants-like-australia-does-to-asylum-seekers-87445

[Katman]

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/nov/22/manus-humanitarian-crisis-a-damning-indictment-of-australias-refugee-policy-unhcr

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/world/australia/manus-island-refugees.html

[Jeff Sichoe]

Just thank god we are far enough away that boat people can't actually get here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=382njADcWvE

[SPman]

All I see are a bunch of people who were stopped at the border illegally trying to get into Australia that just happened to arrive by boat, no identification as to who they are, where they are from & then demanding to be treated as refugees, they were given accommodation, food etc until the government could establish who they were. they have been given alternative accommodation but have refused to go, they have trashed, burnt their current buildings, upset the locals. Put them on their boats & send them back to where they came from Oh that's right the boats were scuttled & are now on the bottom of the ocean, send them all back, don't want them here in Australia, they are trouble do not want to be part of Australia. Look at the so called refugees that were let into Australia when Rudd, Gillard, Rudd were in - none working, all receiving benefits, given housing even though there is a huge waiting list for people here, all commiting crimes & you wonder why no-one wants them here

What a load of fucking crap!

[Jeff Sichoe]

What a load of fucking crap!

what, exactly, are you disputing? What Pickle said is a factual account of what is happening...

[Katman]

what, exactly, are you disputing? What Pickle said is a factual account of what is happening...

So you should be able to provide us some details that prove that none of them are working, that all of them are collecting a benefit and that all of them are committing crime.

If you can't, then I'd suggest that Pickle's post is indeed a load of fucking crap.

[Ocean1]

So you should be able to provide us some details that prove that none of them are working, that all of them are collecting a benefit and that all of them are committing crime.

If you can't, then I'd suggest that Pickle's post is indeed a load of fucking crap.

Just as you'll be keen to present the data showing every single one of them fully employed, none of them receiving taxpayer support and none of them engaged in criminal activities.

PS: Have you upped your game wrt your pathetic contribution to relieve the plight of illegal immigrants, or are you still full of shit?

[Jeff Sichoe]

So you should be able to provide us some details that prove that none of them are working, that all of them are collecting a benefit and that all of them are committing crime.

If you can't, then I'd suggest that Pickle's post is indeed a load of fucking crap.

even if only 20% were trouble makers and the other 80% perfect little angels then I still vote to keep em out.

[Katman]

even if only 20% were trouble makers and the other 80% perfect little angels then I still vote to keep em out.

I'll take that as a "sorry, I haven't got anything at all to back up what I previously called a factual account".

[Ocean1]

Fuck off and die.

Still full of shit it is.

[Laava]

Is this the right thread for abuse?

[Woodman]

Is this the right thread for abuse?

Katman is in it so yeah.

[husaberg]

Katman is in it so yeah.
Have you recieved the de rigor abusive rep yet?