MNZ restart rule change (again)

[scott411]

interesting email yesterday afternoon, i see the road race restart rule was changed again, making it so you can change bikes if it is a full restarts
(like they did on the weekend, which the rule that had just been put in place did not allow)




MNZ would like to advise of the following Safety Rule Change effective immediately:

6.21 Stopping and Re-starting a Race:
Should it be necessary to stop a race due to an accident, climatic or other conditions that make it hazardous to continue, a Red flag will be displayed at the finish line under the direction of the Steward or Clerk of the Course. Once instructed, all flag points are to display waved Red flags.
a. Upon sighting the Red flag riders are to cease racing immediately and ride at touring pace and return to the pit lane, or the safest point on the track at the discretion of the Clerk of the Course (this point must be announced at riders briefing), where they will stop and await further instructions.
b. The decision to stop a race for whatever the reason can only come from the Steward or Clerk of the Course.
c. Any red flagged race may only be re-started or continued once.
d. Points can only be awarded to riders that were racing at the time of the red flag.
e. The number of full laps completed by the lead rider prior to the race stoppage shall define the determinations below:

A. If no more than two laps of the stopped race were completed:
a. The stopped race will be declared null and void and a new start will take place,
b. The re-start will take place as soon as possible and must occur no more than 30 minutes after the race has been stopped. If it cannot be re-run within this time it shall be null and void and no points will be awarded.
For clarity:
● The re-started race will be for the full original race distance,
● The original grid positions will be used,
● The place of any machine unable to take part in the re-started race will be left vacant,
● Machines can be repaired or replaced. However, they must meet the requirements of being on the track in terms of class eligibility and any machine checks etc.
● Only those riders that took place in the original start can take part in the re-start.

B. If more than two laps, but less than 65% of the original race distance, have been completed:
a. The second part must occur no more than 30 minutes after the race has been stopped. If it cannot be continued within this time it shall be null and void. This shall cause all parts to be null and void and no points will be awarded.
b. The second part race distance will be the remainder of the original race distance,
c. The original grid positions will be used,
d. The place of any machine unable to take part in the second part of the race will be left vacant,
e. Only competitors who have completed at least 65% of the laps completed by the lead rider, and were racing at the time of the red flag will be allowed to participate in the continued race,
f. Machines may be repaired, but not replaced, provided they have been approved by the Machine Examiner or the Technical Steward (whichever is applicable) before rejoining,
g. The final race classification will be established according to the finishing order of the last part of the race only,
i. If 65% or more of the original scheduled race distance (in total) is completed full points will be awarded,
ii. If less than 65% of the original scheduled race distance (in total), but more than two laps, is completed half points will be awarded.

C. If 65% or more of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race,
b. The finishing order shall be at end of the last full lap completed by the lead rider before the stopping of the race,
c. Full points will be awarded.

Please update your Manual of Motorcycle Sport to reflect this change

(bold was my highlight, not off the MNZ email)

[jellywrestler]

they can change rules on a safety basis, where is the safety bit then, i would have thought grabbing someone elses bike, or a bike that you'd done no laps on at all at the weekend wasn't the safest thing to do?

[scott411]

they can change rules on a safety basis, where is the safety bit then, i would have thought grabbing someone elses bike, or a bike that you'd done no laps on at all at the weekend wasn't the safest thing to do?

I agree totally, dont see the safety aspect of this retroactive rule change,

[Grumph]

Some's good - some's bad. Do not like the replacement bike idea at all.

[Grumph]

Some's good - some's bad. Do not like the replacement bike idea at all.

Edit - on thinking it through, if a replacement bike is used, it's correct grid position is at the back of the field.
Unless someone's gone to the trouble of using two transponders and qualifying both bikes, the replacement won't have a time so should go to the back of the grid.
Built in penalty...

[Dave-]

hey we're trying to reduce the cost of racing a superbike in new zealand.

You now need twice as many motorbikes.

Fuck I hate how this forum removes all caps, loses so much effect.

[Kickaha]

they can change rules on a safety basis, where is the safety bit then,

There isn't one

Unlike the chest protector one they've been dicking about with for sidecars and won't give an answer on

[rustys]

hey we're trying to reduce the cost of racing a superbike in new zealand.

You now need twice as many motorbikes.

Fuck I hate how this forum removes all caps, loses so much effect.

REPLACEMENT BIKE BE FUCKED......
Totally agree Dave, bit tough and unfair for the ones that don't have a spare bike. I think they need to relook at the "replacement bike" part as its going to cause more shit, and arguments. Don't like it at all. This part of the Rule obviously applies to all classes as well, come on MNZ have you got any brains!!!!!!!

[ellipsis]

MNZ have you got any brains!!!!!!!

...collectively there must be a few cells...they do manage to, ummm...do things...don't they?...

[malcy25]

I can understand the logic of adding a bike change into the section they did. Think about it....the result has been declared null, that means it did not "happen"...we all start from a new beginning. Not allowing a machine replacement (and ANYONE can at that point) could have been seen as a negative impact on a rider who's machine has been damaged.

[Grumph]

I can understand the logic of adding a bike change into the section they did. Think about it....the result has been declared null, that means it did not "happen"...we all start from a new beginning. Not allowing a machine replacement (and ANYONE can at that point) could have been seen as a negative impact on a rider who's machine has been damaged.

True - but as I've said earlier, that machine probably won't have a qualifying time so should start off the back....

It raises questions about identifying which machine is used if a rider has more than one - and those questions are not currently addressed anywhere in the rules AFAIK. Up to this point, if a rider has used one machine for qualifying and another for the race, he's been open to protest as not starting from the correct grid position...

[malcy25]

True - but as I've said earlier, that machine probably won't have a qualifying time so should start off the back....

It raises questions about identifying which machine is used if a rider has more than one - and those questions are not currently addressed anywhere in the rules AFAIK. Up to this point, if a rider has used one machine for qualifying and another for the race, he's been open to protest as not starting from the correct grid position...

Is it the machine or the rider who earns the grid position? Under your example, I could take over some ones machine and grid position and possibly a front row position.....Bribery, corruption and a lot of cash could get me on the front row!!!!

Also read rule 6.9a it does say a rider can use an alternative machine. https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/rules/chapter-6---conduct-of-competitions-(road)1e2a00466e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn= 2

[Grumph]

Is it the machine or the rider who earns the grid position? Under your example, I could take over some ones machine and grid position and possibly a front row position.....Bribery, corruption and a lot of cash could get me on the front row!!!!

You've been to Greymouth then ?

I can't open the current rules on this computer - but the old version said machine change was possible if it was in the supp regs for that meeting.
That setup was designed for endurance races with multiple bike teams.
The common precedent is speedway where you've got 2 minutes to change bike - but that's with grid positions drawn from a hat...
It still needs further clarifying.

[malcy25]

You've been to Greymouth then ?

I can't open the current rules on this computer - but the old version said machine change was possible if it was in the supp regs for that meeting.
That setup was designed for endurance races with multiple bike teams.
The common precedent is speedway where you've got 2 minutes to change bike - but that's with grid positions drawn from a hat...
It still needs further clarifying.

Dunno about Greymouth - I assume they use the same rule book! But flicking through the online road rule book last night while I was looking for some stuff I wanted to check for the 300, I had a look also around multiple bikes. That 6.9a was the only thing I found. I'm comfortable with how it is. Trying to change it could cause more issues than you would ever resolve.

[rustys]

Is it the machine or the rider who earns the grid position? Under your example, I could take over some ones machine and grid position and possibly a front row position.....Bribery, corruption and a lot of cash could get me on the front row!!!!

Also read rule 6.9a it does say a rider can use an alternative machine. https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/rules/chapter-6---conduct-of-competitions-(road)1e2a00466e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn= 2

(6.9a an aternative machine in OTHER races not the same Race.)

[CHOPPA]

We have a few classes that are mixed together in National racing and in Club Racing. They have gone against what every other Championship in the world and instead of stating last completed lap, they have said last completed lap by the lead rider.

So that means if the lead rider crosses the line on lap 7 of a 10 lap race then the red flag comes out behind him, then every other competitors results are taken from the last time they crossed the line which would be lap 6.

So the race is determined by the lead rider. Its done 70% of the race. The race is declared. All good. Easy to under stand.

Problem is.... Maybe its Formula 3 and Pro Twin. Mr F3 leader crosses the line for 7th lap and red flag goes out. Mr Pro Twin leader only on 6th lap so Pro Twin have only done 60% of the race.

Do Pro Twin just restart? Most of the time, specially club days its a mixed grid, what happens to the grid positions?

C. If 65% or more of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race,
b. The finishing order shall be at end of the last full lap completed by the lead rider before the stopping of the race,
c. Full points will be awarded.

[Mental Trousers]

We have a few classes that are mixed together in National racing and in Club Racing. They have gone against what every other Championship in the world and instead of stating last completed lap, they have said last completed lap by the lead rider.

So that means if the lead rider crosses the line on lap 7 of a 10 lap race then the red flag comes out behind him, then every other competitors results are taken from the last time they crossed the line which would be lap 6.

So the race is determined by the lead rider. Its done 70% of the race. The race is declared. All good. Easy to under stand.

Problem is.... Maybe its Formula 3 and Pro Twin. Mr F3 leader crosses the line for 7th lap and red flag goes out. Mr Pro Twin leader only on 6th lap so Pro Twin have only done 60% of the race.

Do Pro Twin just restart? Most of the time, specially club days its a mixed grid, what happens to the grid positions?

C. If 65% or more of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race,
b. The finishing order shall be at end of the last full lap completed by the lead rider before the stopping of the race,
c. Full points will be awarded.

The lead rider on track is the lead rider. If a race is declared then it's declared for the entire field, not for the individual classes.

[CHOPPA]

The lead rider on track is the lead rider. If a race is declared then it's declared for the entire field, not for the individual classes.

That's not what the rule says.

It says you must finish 65%. When the results get printed for the other class it is not going to have 65% completed.

[malcy25]

(6.9a an aternative machine in OTHER races not the same Race.) and to see rule 6.21a which now says you can on the basis the race has been nulled (if less than 2 laps), "it never happened". As you have identified, 6.9a needs a tidy up to fit with the new restart rule.

[Mental Trousers]

The lead rider on track is the lead rider. If a race is declared then it's declared for the entire field, not for the individual classes.

That's not what the rule says.

It says you must finish 65%. When the results get printed for the other class it is not going to have 65% completed.

The 65% rule is listed in Chapter 6 - Conduct of Competitions so it doesn't apply to individual classes. If the leader does more than 65% and the race is declared that's it for everybody in that race. More than 65% was done so there's a result.

If that rule was applied to each individual class instead of races then races with multiple classes would be a nightmare.

[Grumph]

The 65% rule is listed in Chapter 6 - Conduct of Competitions so it doesn't apply to individual classes. If the leader does more than 65% and the race is declared that's it for everybody in that race. More than 65% was done so there's a result.

If that rule was applied to each individual class instead of races then races with multiple classes would be a nightmare.

Well, it could be argued that a race with three classes - each of which has a separate staggered start - is in fact three races taking place simultaneously...
I'm sure that if someone saw an advantage, it would be argued as just that.

I would imagine that it should be made clear at riders briefing how it will be handled - and the class starting last will probably be told to please keep up....

Again, it needs formal clarification as it looks like we'll have more multiple class races rather than less.

[Mental Trousers]

Well, it could be argued that a race with three classes - each of which has a separate staggered start - is in fact three races taking place simultaneously...
I'm sure that if someone saw an advantage, it would be argued as just that.

Motorcyclists/racers don't need to see an advantage to argue haha.

Even with a separate flag/lights to start each of the classes within a race that's the only part where they are treated separately. All other flags apply to everyone on track regardless. A full course yellow is so for everyone, same with a red flag and same with the chequered flag.

Usually the multiple classes within a race thing is done for safety reasons, primarily the start and run to the first corner. For instance, the 125GPs often qualify well towards the front of the F3/Superlite field, but they have a super high first gear and take a lot to get off the line whereas F3/Superlite bikes such as the SV650 launch really hard and fast. So if there's a couple of rows of 125GPs it makes sense to separate them otherwise you're actually creating a dangerous situation and failing in your duty of care.


Again, it needs formal clarification as it looks like we'll have more multiple class races rather than less.

Indeed.

[CHOPPA]

Motorcyclists/racers don't need to see an advantage to argue haha.

Even with a separate flag/lights to start each of the classes within a race that's the only part where they are treated separately. All other flags apply to everyone on track regardless. A full course yellow is so for everyone, same with a red flag and same with the chequered flag.

Usually the multiple classes within a race thing is done for safety reasons, primarily the start and run to the first corner. For instance, the 125GPs often qualify well towards the front of the F3/Superlite field, but they have a super high first gear and take a lot to get off the line whereas F3/Superlite bikes such as the SV650 launch really hard and fast. So if there's a couple of rows of 125GPs it makes sense to separate them otherwise you're actually creating a dangerous situation and failing in your duty of care.



Indeed.

That's incorrect as the president was set on my appeals. Only the Superbike was taken into consideration even though there were 3x classes in the same race which I have documented.

[Mental Trousers]

That's incorrect as the president was set on my appeals. Only the Superbike was taken into consideration even though there were 3x classes in the same race which I have documented.

*precedent (sorry!!)

I only skimmed the most recent decision. Can you point me to that?

[CHOPPA]

I can prove it, happy to send it to you privately but dont want to dredge up all that drama.

The fact remains.. When the results are printed, if the class you are racing in does not complete 65% then your race can not be declared. That is clearly what is says. Please point me to the rule that you are using to come to your conclusion?

Remember to read the rules in sequence....