Summer running - 2000 Ducati ST2 [Archive]

OddDuck

25th December 2017, 18:37

I've gone ahead and bought my second Ducati.

Summertime. Time to ride again, getting a bike for the season while the 900SS is laid up with major engine rebuild work.

It can be a bit of a saga, the fun and games involved in attempting to secure a reasonably reliable ride in the sub-$7K used bike market in NZ. First I had to be sure about the bike that I wanted to buy. Then I had to find an acceptable example to make an offer on.

Bikes with totally dead batteries (twice), rocketships with bent up front ends (oops), bikes that are too far away to go and look at (dammit), and bikes where the seller tells flat out lies about needed and pricey work having been done. Yep. It's chaos out there.

After a while of these fun and games I finally realised that there's a certain amount of banged up that I'm going to get. Perfect isn't really on the menu. About the best I could hope for was something fundamentally OK, with imperfect plastics and paint but a strong motor and a straight chassis. If it was unpopular then that'd help with the bucks too. There was also a non-negotiable chance that I wouldn't be able to resell it. If that happened then I'd better buy something that I'm OK with keeping for a while.

I'm not interested in top end power. Most of my riding is back country roads at sane speeds, so I don't need the latest and greatest to do what I want to do. What I do need is something I can manage, afford, and have some fun on.

Ducati ST. There's a whole family of these largely ignored sport tourers. Here's the quick sum-up:

ST2: lower powered with simple 2V maintenace. Pantah-derived engine.
ST3: most useable engine of the range, fiddly maintenance, looks like a Honda.
ST4: superbike engine, a wolf in sheep's clothing, superbike maintenance.

The 3 and 4 had 'S' versions with Ohlins suspension goodies, lightened builds and uprated engines. All ST engines are liquid cooled and fuel injected. All bikes feature Ducati's signature trellis frames, excellent handling, the possibility of mounting hard bags, and a (by Ducati standards anyway) downright reasonable riding position. The 3 aside, everything in the range shares the same bodywork.

The 2's are considered a bit plain Jane and underpowered (by sport touring standards anyway), but for me there are some very strong advantages. Most of the ones I saw on the used market came with the bags. The engine's a simple beast that I'm already mostly familiar with. Aside from injection and liquid cooling, it's basically a continuation of the 900SS engine. I already have most of the skills and tools needed to look after the bike.

The 3's don't turn up in the market often. They're the oddball Ducati engine: 3 valves, 2 inlet and one exhaust. Apparently it's the pick of the bunch in terms of how the engine behaves in real world riding. Either there weren't that many made in the first place, or people who have them don't give them up willingly. Maybe both are true. I didn't get the chance to test one, unfortunately.

The 4's are very likely to have been modded, ridden hard, and crashed hard too, from what little I saw. They also don't turn up often in the used market with the bags, which I wanted to have. Desmoquattro superbike engines: big maintenance. Pull camshafts and check for rocker arm chrome flaking at every valve clearance interval, that kind of thing. The one 4s I managed to test ride had far more power than I'd ever need or want.

Right, an ST2 would probably be it... a mate and I took a car up to a dealership, spent an hour plus going over the bike and test riding it, then I made an offer. A spot of negotiation, a deal struck and some paperwork later I had a ride for summer. There were no issues riding it home, roughly 300-ish k of lotsa fun through the twisties and annoyance at slowpokes on the main roads.

There are a few things to sort out, starting with an issue I noticed at the dealership and used as a basis for making a reduced offer: the state of the gearbox output shaft spline and front sprocket. The dry red horror of the second photo shows what we saw when the plastic front sprocket cover came off. The third photo shows the detail I noticed on the dealer floor: the chain wasn't tracking on its plastic runner correctly. This was the only external warning sign.

One of the nice features about the ST series swingarm design is that a riveted chain will come off without any messing around. All I had to do was to get the clutch slave cylinder out of the way and then to release the front sprocket.

I found metal splinters all over the chain, when I washed it. The front sprocket's internal splines are badly beaten up but still barely useable. The sprocket retainer is totally shot - the locking teeth are completely worn away - and the front sprocket is badly worn on the inside flank (where the chain meets the teeth), due to having run close to the engine for quite some time.

OddDuck

25th December 2017, 18:45

Here's a couple more shots of the carved-up front sprocket and chain. Note the unequal side flex... this chain's been running skewed. It's also doing the thing where it lifts off the rear sprocket easily. Even if it was still straight, this is worn out. This was one thing I didn't remember to check when I was looking over the bike, unfortunately.

For now I've cleaned, greased, and reassembled with a new locking tab washer. It's clear that the chain and sprocket set is stuffed. The gearbox output spline is a bit hammered but still serviceable, this shaft should go the distance until major engine work, but it'd be good to replace it at that time.

The front sprocket, though... I really didn't expect the aggressive wear on the inside flank. It's normally 7.5mm thick. This is now down to 6.5mm. The internal splines are thoroughly rounded off, too. Not good. It's not catastrophic, I'll still ride (carefully), but it's immediate replacement time for the chain and sprocket set.

OddDuck

26th December 2017, 05:00

Owners guide, parts diagrams and lists, and full workshop and service manuals downloaded:

https://www.carlsalter.com/ducati-service-manuals.asp

The text Capcha thing here uses two words. I entered these without a space between them and used upper / lower case as displayed, there were no issues getting the pdf's.

Laava

26th December 2017, 07:27

So the spline on the output shaft where the sprocket should have been sitting looks ok? How many kms has the bike done, it looks fine!

OddDuck

26th December 2017, 09:01

So the spline on the output shaft where the sprocket should have been sitting looks ok? How many kms has the bike done, it looks fine!

About 26,000 km's. I'd have to take a photo side by side with a brand new one to really show the differences but it is worn, you can see the curves in the spline faces. Won't stop me riding though...

Laava

26th December 2017, 21:48

So at 26,000km that would still be the original chain and sprockets, someone must have moved it for it to be in the wrong position like that on the output shaft?

OddDuck

26th December 2017, 22:09

Just fixing a few other things, because I'm picky...

The clutch had something of a judder when starting off in first gear. I'd put it down to a worn clutch pack. Today's job was to check this out, prior to ordering replacements.

It looks like the problem was down to incorrect reassembly. There's a triangle and slot on the pressure plate, with a matching slot on the clutch hub's spring post. It's clearly visible once the springs are off. These are supposed to go together, there is definitely one correct place to assemble these.

The trouble with the Ducati design is that it's possible to put the pressure plate out of place by one post to either side. It'll still fit together, it's just that the posts aren't centered in the pressure plate's holes. They'll be out of whack by just enough that the springs will exert a torque between pressure plate and hub, but not misaligned enough so that it's obvious. The torque can cause issues with the clutch action, or at least I think so. The pressure plate will start dragging and binding in the hub splines. This may have been the reason for the judder. Haven't had the chance to test ride yet.

I was very pleased to find that all friction plates came in at 2.9 mm thickness or just over - they're nearly new. There was some corrosion, though. I think water has been getting in via cracks in the clutch cover gasket. Some of the steels had clear marks on them where the friction plates had left an outline, as if the clutch pack had frozen at some point. There was no visible damage to friction surfaces beyond normal wear.

The cover screw's corrosion isn't a big deal. Rust marks on the steels will come off with some sanding. The pushrod coming out with the pressure plate is kind of a pain, though. I want that separable in future, ideally the pushrod stays with the engine whenever service work has to be done.

Ducati left a just under 2 mm hole in the end of the bearing cap, presumably for just this reason - it's possible for the pushrod to bind up in the bearing cap due to clutch dust. I didn't have a pin punch small enough so sacrificed a jeweller's screwdriver for the job, with a couple of rags on the floor to catch the rod when it dropped. A couple of taps got it out without any issues, then it was some sanding of pushrod and bearing cap insides to make sure that rust didn't swell and lock it in again.

The photo of the bent-over cotton bud is to show a way to sand the inside of the bearing cap. Ducati have revised the design and incorporated an O-ring, presumably against the dust buildup and pushrod locking problem. I wanted to avoid carving this O-ring up. Sanding was done with a narrow strip of paper, the cotton bud was just a way to drive this rolled-up strip once it was down the hole.

Plates and steels came in fine as far as flatness was concerned. The basket and hub are notched but there's still plenty of life left in them, although I don't think the basket would pass Ducati's 0.6mm tang-to-basket free play test. Clutch action tested out OK with the cover off and spinning the pressure plate and hub by hand, with springs etc reassembled and everything back the way it should be.

There's a couple more post-purchase checks and tweaks I'd like to make, but so far the chain and the clutch are the two biggies.

OddDuck

26th December 2017, 22:17

So at 26,000km that would still be the original chain and sprockets, someone must have moved it for it to be in the wrong position like that on the output shaft?

It's not actually possible to move a healthy assembly, it'll be locked into the groove on the output shaft. I think it's neglect. The locking tab washer is supposed to be checked every 10,000 km's, along with everything else during that interval service.

Sooner or later the tabs on that washer will get chewed out by wear and then the above happens... the trouble is that it happens behind a cover, and (in this case anyway) on the reverse face of the washer. Seeing this would have required taking the tab washer off the sprocket, cleaning it, and checking both washer faces. It would have been easy to miss prior to failure.

The chain not tracking straight should have rung some alarm bells though... it looks like failure happened quite a while ago.

AllanB

26th December 2017, 22:27

I'm quietly laughing. I'm sure you purchased this one to ride but within 48 hours you are pulling it apart! :lol:

Just ribbing ya.

Laava

26th December 2017, 22:36

I'm quietly laughing. I'm sure you purchased this one to ride but within 48 hours you are pulling it apart! :lol:

Just ribbing ya.

I am feeling his pain! I bought a Ducati recently and have spent a lot of time fixing up needless fuck ups on it, wish it was as good as my 3 yr old v strom!
It is however a hoot to ride and puts a smile on my face!

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 06:45

I am feeling his pain! I bought a Ducati recently and have spent a lot of time fixing up needless fuck ups on it, wish it was as good as my 3 yr old v strom!
It is however a hoot to ride and puts a smile on my face!

I had the same thing post test ride, my comment to my mate was that the ST2 was fun, fun fun!! I'd expected a staid but solid performer, I really hadn't picked how good it'd be to throw it around in the twisties.

What sort of problems have you had with the bike?

Laava

27th December 2017, 08:45

Loadsa niggles, most of them due to bad workmanship from either the previous owner or the shop I bought it from,
The back wheel slamming into the tail tidy and breaking the plate lamp and then one of the mounting bolts disappeared along with the warrant and rego.
Battery going flat in 5-7 days which most of the people on the Ducati forum told me was completely normal. Turns out it was a usb charger that was retro fitted and unswitched.
The pinch bolts totally loose on top fork clamps, both sides and the centre bolt completely missing. This can only have been installed like that, as you need to remove the top clamp to replace the bolt, and then given a warrant by the bike shop I bought it from. I gave them my opinion on this one!
Front brake lever spongy but comes up hard with one quick pump, this has marginally improved by rebleeding and vigorous use but is more than likely caused by the piston seals rocking in their groove very slightly. A known issue when things get dirty or corroded in that area.
A continuous weeping of coolant at the expansion bottle where the hose connects from radiator. I havent fixed this yet as it is kinda fiddly to get to and in very small amounts at this stage.
Very loose and rattly pillion pegs, no biggie but not the sort of thing I would expect on an expensive machine.
That's about it and most not attributed to Ducati as such but still annoying esp when I have zero mechanical problems on my 3yr old 50,000km suzuki.
Again, offset by insane fun factor!

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 10:58

Ouch, sympathies. Not fun. The stuff with the triple clamps sounds like the stuff of nightmares.

neels

27th December 2017, 12:39

I've done about 40k on my ST2, still loving it, they punt along ok on the twisties but still comfy enough to do 500+ k's in a day. The factory panniers are excellent, and almost completely waterproof.

Found the same issue with the front sprocket locking plate when I pulled mine to bits for a clean the other day, no other damage done though.

Mine's only ever failed to get me home 3 times, and never had to do any major pulling apart, so not too bad given it gets ridden and parked in all sorts of weather.

First time completely dead battery, bike won't run without one due to the single phase alternator.
Second time would start but not rev, corroded contacts on the throttle position sensor connector.
Third time turned over but wouldn't start, corroded contacts on the ignition pickup connector.

Due for a 10k service and new chain and sprockets very shortly...

Laava

27th December 2017, 12:58

Ouch, sympathies. Not fun. The stuff with the triple clamps sounds like the stuff of nightmares.

Yep, i also did about 3000km before I noticed it. Was wondering why I was wallowing a bit more in the corners than I needed to!

AllanB

27th December 2017, 13:30

Yep, i also did about 3000km before I noticed it. Was wondering why I was wallowing a bit more in the corners than I needed to!

Sounds like servicing issues not Ducati specific issues - front end must have been dropped at some stage (fork oil change?) and put back without the relevant final checking. In my experience on different brands the fork clamp bolts don't get torqued up a lot.

I wonder if workshops run a buddy check system - I know a tyre outfit that used to - someone put the wheel back on and before the bike was lowered a colleague ran a spanner over the relevant nuts and bolts to ensure they had indeed been tightened.

Laava

27th December 2017, 15:30

Sounds like servicing issues not Ducati specific issues - front end must have been dropped at some stage (fork oil change?) and put back without the relevant final checking. In my experience on different brands the fork clamp bolts don't get torqued up a lot.

I wonder if workshops run a buddy check system - I know a tyre outfit that used to - someone put the wheel back on and before the bike was lowered a colleague ran a spanner over the relevant nuts and bolts to ensure they had indeed been tightened.

Yep, not a ducati issue at all but frustrating that the shop that sold it and put the wof on it didn't pick it up...
funnily enough, I rode my v strom back from cycletreads one day after getting a new front tyre and the pinch bolts were completely loose...and they do run the buddy system!

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 19:34

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 19:57

Carrying on, sorting one issue after another... this time it's the hesitation the bike had when starting.

Turn key, press starter, there's a hesitation - one, two - then the engine turns over and comes to life. I've been here before. It's the starter motor not getting enough current.

I'd worked out that it draws around 50 amps on the 900SS. This is basically the same motor starting the (roughly) same engine so I don't imagine the current draw would be much different.

That's a lot of amperage, but it happens at low voltage. 12 V isn't that much electromotive force and it doesn't take much in the way of oxidation / dirt / oil etc to mess up a connection. On the 900SS, after thinking that the issue was skinny starter cables, I'd found that the starter motor (oops) was loose in the engine itself. Since the casing is the return path for ground, there just wasn't the metal-to-metal contact needed for the current.

This time around I started at the booted connector to the rear of the starter motor, after verifying that the motor itself was tight to the engine. On the Ducati forums, this boot is notorious for filling up with water and then corroding the spade lug and terminal. On this bike, the terminal is still under the original grease and appears immaculate, although I didn't do more than pull the boot back to see.

The battery negative terminal was a different story, though. There's a 90 degree adaptor used and this one was in bad condition.

It's clearly broken at some point - corrosion damage maybe? - and been rebuilt, with a grabbed and welded-in screw. Whoever did this didn't bother cleaning any of the surfaces up post welding. Obviously this works, the bike runs, but I can't imagine 50 amps getting through this cleanly.

The other issue is connection to the battery terminal. The passivation coating is a thin but effective insulator. Sanding it back opens the steel to corrosion further down the track, but after seeing this repair job I think I'll be purchasing a replacement part anyway.

Not a big deal to clean up with a needle file and some paper. The photos show the before and after for this component only - I did similar cleaning up for the other ground eyelets and the securing nut. Everywhere metal faces got clamped together was cleaned. I haven't checked the other connections yet. The starter circuit depends on a clean loop, right from battery positive, through the starter relay, through the starter motor brushes and windings, through the engine casings and then the engine ground cable back to battery negative. Every step of the way has to work, 50-ish amps needs a good contact patch of clean metal every time there's a connection.

As far as I can tell, the area around the battery has been worked on, the other bits are still ex-factory. It's worth a look at the positive side of the circuit as well. I'll be testing the engine soon hopefully, but I'd quite like to check the other big two of belts and shims first.

Laava

27th December 2017, 20:17

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 20:19

Sorting out the mirrors. This one kind of got away on me a bit...

The first issue was that, as purchased, the bike's left mirror was a bit loose on its mount. There's a spring release to allow it to contact things and take the hit.

Maybe it had been hit too hard... there was a home repair on the spring mount and the mirror lens itself is clearly not mounted properly any more. It won't adjust, yet is loose and shakes while the bike is running. The whole thing is loose enough on its fairing mount that it bounces with every decent jolt in the road. There's nothing wrong with the right hand mirror.

However even if they were both 100% I'd have to think about taking them both off. This isn't a style thing, or wannabe cafe racer nonsense, or me being too tight to spring for the pricey and 2-to-8 week waiting time Ducati OEM parts. It's just that they stick out from the top of the fairing, that makes the bike quite wide when it's on the side stand, leading to the second, ridiculous issue...

I have a narrow, small garage. It's possible to get the car and the (stock) bike in, it's just that the free clearance is around two inches total. Yes, that's with the car's wing mirrors folded. It's just a matter of time before there's a scrape or a bash.

Right, off with the stock mirrors and on with bar ends.

A couple of notes here for anyone not already familiar with cheapo aftermarket bar end mirrors:

1) Oberon do pricey but good mirrors, everything else is basically a copy of the Oberon design
2) Most of the cheapies use a multipiece collet design and it's crap, guaranteed to loosen while riding and fall off
3) The really cheap and nasty copies use flat glass for the mirrors and this is all but useless, you've got next to no field of view in the mirror.

That out of the way, a cheapie with curved glass and a multipiece mounting actually was the best for a replacement. The ST bars are a solid, cast aluminium design. There's an M8 thread but no hollow stem. Some flattening off of the mirror clamp boss, lots of use of threadlock, and mirrors went straight on to replace the stock bar end weights. They're comparable in mass so vibration should be controlled to a similar level.

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 20:27

Mirrors, part II: replacing the clamping plates on the front upper fairing.

Where the mirrors mount is probably important, in terms of support of the top piece of the fairing. Best to bolt this up again, but a couple of mudguard washers would look pretty cheesy. I've spent a few hours making a couple of bits of stainless steel sheet metal for this.

They were marked out using one of the old mirror gaskets, drilled, hacksawed around the perimeter and then filed. I then very roughly dished them by hammering them out against a bit of 4x2. Stick-on foam sealing strips, which looks pretty awful close up, protects the plastic once the screws are done up.

There's room for improvement - button head stainless cap screws and something decent for cushioning would do wonders for the aesthetics - but for now they'll get me rolling.

OddDuck

27th December 2017, 20:38

If there wasn't a strange kind of satisfaction in keeping a bike in top running condition, I would never bother with anything italian. I have had 4 and my Laverda is the most attention I have ever paid into a bike...

I went through the wringer a couple of decades ago with a Honda. At the end of much heartache, I had... a Honda. An old Honda. Not even a classic Honda, just a manky one. Hmm. There's a lesson there.

I've had total strangers cross the road to compliment me on the 900SS and have a chat, even non-bike people like it. It's great fun to ride. I've had to work extremely hard on that bike but I reckon it's been worth it.

OddDuck

28th December 2017, 14:13

Might have stumbled across something useful, should anyone be looking at purchasing a used Ducati and want a pre-purchase checkpoint.

If the bike has been dropped, there's a chance that one of the rubber tank support blocks will be sitting high - i.e. not in contact with the frame rail. This can be seen easily during inspection if you just look under the edge of the fuel tank.

This happens because the tank sits on a pair of these rubber blocks, about a third of the way back from the front, and a hinge at the rear base of the tank (under the front edge of the seat). There's a hooked latch at the front. That's all that's carrying the tank. It's very handy for lifting the tank and doing work underneath.

In normal riding that's fine, straight up and down motion is all it's really going to see. In a crash situation, suddenly there's the full weight of a tank's worth of fuel, applied sideways. The hook at the front is made to be springy, so it won't lock the tank down to the frame without giving some free play. The rubber blocks only provide resting support, they won't do anything in tension. That means there's a strong twist applied to the hinge mounting plate and the frame crossmember that it sits on. Both of these are 2mm-ish sheet metal, and given enough force, they bend. End result is a tank sitting skewed. It's obvious once you go looking for it, or trying to gently lift the tank by one front corner and then the other - it's very easy to feel different weights if it isn't sitting straight.

The giveaway was the bent rubber block. These are made from rubber cast over a metal plate bracket (it's on the bike's RHS, photo LHS, in the photo taken over the top edge of the windshield).

I've straightened the rubber-over-steel-plate block and shimmed the hinge plate with some M6 mudguard washers. I didn't feel confident enough to attempt to straighten either the hinge bracket or the frame crossmember. It's a bit bodge engineering but the tank is sitting properly again.

The rubber strap securing the tank at the front must have been stretching a bit because of this... it was a bit rattly. Experience suggests that this metal on metal rattling will rapidly wear either the hook or the cast bar on the tank, so I've put a cut piece of PVC sleeving over the bar and cable-tied it into place pending replacement of the strap.

OddDuck

28th December 2017, 14:32

Lifting the tank to check the air filter (this was why I found out the tank was sitting skewed).

I wasn't that impressed with the tank prop design and in the end did an overhead lift, using an eyelet and one of my interisland ferry tie-downs on the tank's latch-down bracket.

Not much to say here really - it's a pretty good design and aside from the dodgy tank prop bar, it's easy to pop the airbox cover off and check the air filter. The dead insects were a surprise, but with the bike using a fairing nose inlet mouth and internal trunking to feed slipstream air straight into the box lid snorkels, it makes sense that bees etc end up sitting in there. It isn't a slipstream pressurised airbox, though. The trunking pipes don't connect and seal to the snorkels. I used a vacuum cleaner to pick the bugs up before pulling the filter and giving it a good look-over.

It was very tempting to drop in the old K&N filter I'd kept with the 900SS airbox after going to pod filters on that bike. It's the same part number between both bikes, so the filter would fit. I didn't, after finding out via the forums that the engine doesn't automatically adjust for this change. Re-flashing would be needed otherwise I'd be running lean. This is a popular mod, though, usually done at the same time as replacing the stock mufflers with more open aftermarket items.

The air filter itself is very clearly used, with some cracks visible in the foam sealing the edges, but it'll make the 30,000 km service interval.

OddDuck

30th December 2017, 22:02

Out and about today, summer running - finally.

Wainui Beach, Martinborough, Tainui (on the way to Castlepoint), didn't quite make it to Castlepoint itself. Bike did everything just fine, even on the rather old tyres it was sold to me with... if I read the date codes right, the first one's 4712 (rear tyre), the second is 0413 (front). That's the 47th week of 2012 and the 4th week of 2013, unless I'm mistaken?

Good to get out and ride.

OddDuck

1st January 2018, 20:40

Yesterday I gave the bike a post purchase clean (finally), there were a few bugs I wanted off the fairings and a lot of brake dust on the front rim but the main reason was the old chain lube. It's sprayed right over most of the left rear quarter of the bike. It's a black, tarry, sticky, spreads everywhere and gets on everything horror. It's a hassle cleaning it off but it's much nicer working on a bike once it's been cleaned up, I'm sick of getting this stuff all over my hands and arms every time I do a small job.

Getting in close and looking at things underneath meant I noticed a couple of things.

The buffer for the centerstand, a rubber stop plug which pushes into a bracket on the left hand muffler, is missing. There's been a horrible clunk every time I've taken the bike off the centerstand. I'd been thinking that the stop was the steel bracket itself. Nope. It's a small thing, but clean up and examination of the centerstand has shown that the stand's enamel is breaking off on the contact point between stand and muffler. The muffler bracket hasn't started to get chewed up yet but it's just a matter of time. I don't have any photos for this yet.

The side stand was a bit more serious. Both mounting screws had loosened. The lower screw had got to the point where it wasn't even finger tight.

The issue here isn't turning up somewhere at the end of the day, going to put the stand down and finding that it fell off somewhere back on the road. It's having the stand look OK but then failing once the bike's weight is on it. The damage bill could be surprisingly high... carved up or broken fairings, bashed hard bag, knocked handlebars and / or damaged tank, possibly even damage to the engine case itself if the stand ripped the last few turns out of the threads during failure. It all depends how hard it goes over and what the bike lands on.

Such a simple thing. I found gunked-on chain lube under screw heads, between the bracket to engine case contact points etc - simply tightening it up again would be easy but wouldn't hold long term. Lots of scrubbing with paintbrush and rag, an old tin of kero, water based degreaser and a noodle sponge got it sorted out. I used Loctite 222 on the screws for reassembly.

Riding today, took the bike out to Castlepoint.

Laava

1st January 2018, 21:52

Agree re the clean thing, makes it much easier to get into the job of maintenance or whatever. Just a shame that bikes are such bitches to clean, no doubt helped by having a bike hoist or similar...
I am always putting off cleaning my bikes, and then I spray chain oil and just make the job harder!

neels

2nd January 2018, 21:28

Turn key, press starter, there's a hesitation - one, two - then the engine turns over and comes to life. I've been here before. It's the starter motor not getting enough current.
Mine does that, been through all the connections and pulled it apart and replaced the brushes, slightly better but still crap. It's a permanent magnet motor, so never going to be stunning.

The side stand was a bit more serious. Both mounting screws had loosened. The lower screw had got to the point where it wasn't even finger tight.
Mine has had that problem too, even after some serious cleaning and loctite on the bolts. I did arrive somewhere one day with one bolt missing, but as the sidestand is so crap anyway I never trust it so noticed before it got any serious weight on it, fortunately it also has a centre stand.

HenryDorsetCase

3rd January 2018, 09:07

OddDuck

3rd January 2018, 22:20

I had the exact same issue on my Street Triple when I first got it! Both the bolts holding the sidestand bracket to the frame were loose.

What I have failed to understand with your issue with the front sprocket: how can it be put together wrong like that? was the sprocket on backwards? was there a spacer missing?

Yeah, I think the sidestand thing is pretty common. Usually it's located where it'll get sprayed with chain lube. Between heat cool cycles, vibration, and constant oiling, it usually finds a way to come loose.

The front sprocket: probably better explained with pictures. Apologies if this is a bit kid's primer, a few people have struggled with what's going on here so I'll break it down as far as possible. Let's go...

1) nice new sprocket and locking tab washer. The washer is set up so it'll slide onto the gearbox output shaft, notice how the spline teeth are lined up and the screw holes are covered.
334437

2) locking tab washer is now set up as it would be once everything was on the output shaft. The spline teeth are now one step out of phase.
334438

3) munted locking tab washer (the problem) now in place, notice how the locking teeth that should be there just aren't any more. They've been completely worn away.
334439

4) the gearbox output shaft, where the front sprocket attaches. Note the groove near the shaft end. I've slid the locking tab washer on past the point it'd normally lock to.
334440

5) Locking tab washer in its normal position, teeth in the groove, teeth rotated so that it won't slide on the spline any more. This isn't normal, usually the front sprocket would be underneath this.
334441

6) Front sprocket in place, locking tab washer in place, screws not yet properly tightened up. When they are, the sprocket will be pulled into its proper position on the output shaft. The sprocket can't slide further down, or off, the output shaft. The locking washer is doing its job and locking the sprocket to the shaft groove.
334442

And I've run out of pictures... The problem on my bike was that the teeth were completely gone off the locking washer. The whole assembly was free to slide on the output shaft's spline. It wasn't bad assembly. It's pure neglect and wear.

The cause: the front sprocket and the output shaft splines aren't an exact fit. They're just a little bit loose. They have to be, otherwise the slightest bit of dirt between them and you'll need a puller to yank the sprocket off (maybe that happens sometimes, I don't know). Anyway, slightly loose meant a slight motion per rotation was possible. Movement plus grit means abrasive wear. After a while, the locking teeth are simply gone. Ducati specify a check / replace interval of every 10,000 kms... I think there's a pretty good chance that this is the original washer and it's never been checked properly.

OddDuck

4th January 2018, 07:45

Yesterday I had a look at the crack in the RH mid fairing. I'd been thinking I'd had to fabricate some sort of sheet metal patch, hide it as best as possible and screw and glue the thing, to prevent the crack spreading further. Found a couple of things...

Ducati use a system of screw insert expanding rubber plugs (Wellnuts) to secure the fairings. I think it's a good system but it does have its limitations.

The first is that it's not idiot proof. There's more than a few Kiwis out there who seem to reckon that a screw should be done up good and tight, winch it up until the head's about to come off and you've done a good job. Not always... I've recovered a couple of wellnuts off the fairing base which had the brass insert pulled right through the rubber and halfway through the fairing panel itself. There are cracks around more than one of the panel mounting holes.

The second issue is to do with the fairing support posts, projecting out from the frame. These are simple black aluminium tubes which the M6 wellnuts push into the ends of. The hole for the wellnuts is smooth sided, there isn't an internal recess. It kind of has to be this way. The rubber tends to set and permanently expand, after it's been in place for a while. If the hole wasn't smooth sided, you'd struggle to get an old wellnut out.

The issue with the design is twofold: the wellnuts are prone to walking out over time, and they'll also walk out if overtightened. The rubber expands anywhere it can, say right at the end of the tube on the chamfer, and so the wellnut can pull itself out while being done up good and tight.

The rearward triangle on the fairing was effectively flapping in the breeze. The wellnut was vice tight and secured to nothing. It was like this on both sides, and this is probably the reason that the fairing panel cracked in the first place. This can be very quickly tested for by gently pulling the fairing panel. If the wellnuts look as munted as the pair I removed, they'll have to be replaced, these won't go back into the posts when they look like the one pictured.

The other major thing I noticed (finally) occurred after I saw really nasty scratch damage on the radiator surround panel, directly behind the front wheel. I'd been at it with a noodle sponge while cleaning the bike up. Very disappointing to see a finish get carved up this easily, I thought, Ducati must be using Euro enviro-compliant paints... and then I thought about how flexible the fairing was around the windshield, where it's nothing but plastic... and how thin the panels were... and then I finally realised.

It's a cheap, probably Chinese-made fairing panel set. These aren't fibreglass. It's possible that they aren't even ABS. I've bought a bike which has been re-dressed in cheap garbage.

This might explain why the front end of the bike has looked a wee bit wonky, even though the bike handles just fine. It's possible that the panels have been going soft in the sun and sagging while the bike's been parked during the day. The plastic is that soft.

Seriously pissed off but what can I do... I'd seen repaired crash damage on the RH front lower panel and looked good and hard at that during the purchase, too. How the hell did I miss this.

So: if you're looking at buying a bike, once of the pre-purchase checks is to find a fairing panel edge and see if it seems soft, thin or flexible, especially if it's been out in the sun for a few minutes. Ducati fairings are thick, solid fibreglass, with (in my limited experience anyway) good thicknesses of finishing. They're solid and feel like it.

This is roughly a $2K difference in value of the bike, come resale time. It's going to be more than that to replace the fairing set, if I want to go proper new OEM. I was pretty angry and sweary yesterday - what a sucker - one step forward and seven steps back.

You really can't take anything for granted in the used market.

AllanB

4th January 2018, 10:19

I would not feel too bad about it - there are a pile of sports bikes of all makes running around with aftermarket fairings.

When you sell or trade you say nothing about it - same as everyone else.

neels

4th January 2018, 12:46

AllanB

4th January 2018, 15:07

I'd thought the Ducati ones were plastic not fiberglass as the glass is heavy and pumping out plastic covers would be quicker and cheaper.

Or carbon fibre on the exotic ones. Mmmmmmmm carbon fibre. The aftermarket supplies shit loads of CF parts for my Streetfighter. The irony is (aside from the wheels) is that you are just replacing plastic which is already light. Still, I may need to buy a piece ......... to match the mufflers you understand.

OddDuck

5th January 2018, 07:50

OK, looks like I got angry and jumped to a conclusion then. I was going from comparison with the fairings on the Supersport. Whoops. Thanks for the heads-up Neels, I was starting to think about going shopping... the tip about the wellnut set is good too.

HenryDorsetCase

5th January 2018, 12:03

3) munted locking tab washer (the problem) now in place, notice how the locking teeth that should be there just aren't any more. They've been completely worn away.

4) the gearbox output shaft, where the front sprocket attaches. Note the groove near the shaft end. I've slid the locking tab washer on past the point it'd normally lock to.

And I've run out of pictures... The problem on my bike was that the teeth were completely gone off the locking washer. The whole assembly was free to slide on the output shaft's spline. It wasn't bad assembly. It's pure neglect and wear.

Thank you, now I understand. It does seem a rather weird setup but I guess there is no lateral force on it in normal running. Interesting that when it wasnt retained it went inwards towards the engine not outwards towards freedom.

I do really enjoy your threads by the way.

OddDuck

6th January 2018, 07:15

Thanks Henry. I didn't photograph it properly but it looks like the sprocket wandered both ways on the shaft before settling inboard - the clutch slave is chewed up and it looks like the chain's been running on it briefly. It would have been the only thing preventing the front sprocket making a bid for freedom. It's worth checking that locking washer.

Carrying on with catching up on skipped maintenance - that's what I get for buying an ex commuter - this time it was replacing the dodgy old tyres. Five years old at the front, six at the back.

I had the back tyre let go briefly while exiting a roundabout, in the dry. It was overinflated ex dealer (40 psi when the owner's manual says just 32) which wouldn't have helped, but it still shouldn't have done that. We've been getting a lot of sudden showers lately. I simply wouldn't trust these tyres in the wet. Quick runarounds from home are one thing, on multi day tour is another... better to simply change the tyres.

Tyre change. Jack the bike up, take the wheels off, go to the dealer and get them to sort the beading and balancing. Bring the wheels back home, put them back onto the bike, drop the stands and done. Well, that was the plan.

I ran into some difficulty with the front axle. Normally this should push out by hand. It'll be a little gummed up with old grease and maybe road dirt and brake dust, but it should push. Not here. The usual procedure is to take a suitable drift and hammer the thing out; I think this puts brutal shock loads through the forks, tree, head bearings and frame, unless there's a helper with a massive counterweight on the other side of the wheel.

Twist and push is the other way. If you can only push lightly but can apply high torque, getting it rotating can free it up to move axially. Not really possible here though. Ducati have used a very specific end design instead of a generic hexagon of some kind, and without the dedicated tool it's not possible to torque the axle itself. It wouldn't work if it's trapped by rotating bearings anyway, they'll simply roll with the torque.

I resorted to using a gear puller on the brake disc carrier. This is very dicey. It'd be very easy to bend that carrier and thus lead to a problem with the front brakes, at least the way I was doing things. If a thick pair of half-circles could be lathed up and put on the inner back face of the carrier to spread the load or allow the puller legs to get closer to the wheel hub, it'd probably be a lot more forgiving.

Some PB Blaster, delicate tightening up of the gear puller, and using a socket and extension bar to get the reach needed for the through push, and I had the axle out. It was during reassembly that I realised what the problem had been.

Ducati have put an adjustment for the front suspension at the base of the fork legs. To get at this, a screwdriver has to go upwards, through the axle itself. To save pulling the axle for every adjustment, they've thoughtfully designed in a pair of holes at each end of the axle. There's no messing around, you just go straight for your adjustment.

The trouble with this design is that it looks just like the tommy bar holes on an old spark plug spanner, one of the cheap formed tube things that turn up in the bike toolkit. Everyone knows that what you do with these is to slide the bar or a screwdriver through the holes, then use them for the torque when you're tightening it up.

I think this may have happened with this axle, at both ends, possibly both undoing / doing up again too. A quick go-around the diameters in the vicinity of the holes showed it was out of round by about 0.2 to 0.3 mm at each end. No wonder it isn't sliding freely through the wheel or the stanchion clamps.

A spot of filing in the vise sorted it out. That took the passivation off, off course. I'll have to be careful to keep it greased and clean from now on or else it'll rust and then jam in place again, and that brings me to the second problem with this design. The stanchion clamps are very open to outside conditions. It's almost impossible to avoid rust long term. I've had good results with preserving surfaces under a thick layer of grease which has been allowed to pick up dirt, maybe that'll work.

The stanchion clamps were opened up a bit for reassembly by using a bolt from the back and a washer in the slot. Again, care needed during this procedure, it'd be very easy to damage these clamps. Open enough to get a sliding fit and no more.

OddDuck

6th January 2018, 08:19

I had the bike just about jump off the stands yesterday. I was at floor level, scrubbing the underside of the crankcase, in preparation for refitting the centerstand.

Rainy as hell outside, nobody in the street. The phone was upstairs. I was working alone. If the bike had gone over sideways on me... well. Could've been quite nasty. It's not exactly a lightweight.

What happened was that the front stand folded up due to shaking from the scrubbing. This let the bike leap backward on the rear stand. It is astonishing just how fast something this heavy can move once a support collapses. The swingarm narrows down near the engine, so the pair of L-tabs that go under the swingarm were now set too wide. I very nearly lost support on one side. At that point, the bike's going over unless someone's already got a hand on it and is braced for the weight.

There was quite a buildup to this near miss.

I'd jerry-rigged an adaptor for the front stand to connect to the headstock. Ducati have used a very large diameter tube (the inside diameter is around 25mm) and none of the stand's supplied adaptors were anywhere near large enough in diameter. I'd like to lathe something proper up for the job, in the meantime a filed-down 50x50 M12 washer and one of my sockets would do, or so I thought. After this event it's now clear that the front stand has to be connected to that head tube. There really can't be flex. The adaptor has to be a good fit, otherwise the entire stand can pivot at the connection point and thus roll outward at floor level.

The front stand itself wants some work done. Maybe slightly larger wheels... As supplied, it's always been marginal for this kind of thing, the axle location seems to be off by about 10 mm. The idea is that once set up, it's locked in to the floor by the way it carries the load. The handle part of the stand (covered with foam) should require some force to pull up from the floor, when the stand is to be let down. Not with this particular unit, it's always been twitchy. A kick by accident and the whole thing could collapse.

I've always just lived with that, probably a case of not having had several front stands and therefore not knowing a good stand from a bad one. A modification worth thinking about is a lock of some kind on the hinge joint. That won't be easy to do though.

The bike wasn't secured to the roof, or under any of the lifting points. In the end I don't think this would have helped anyway. The beams holding the garage roof up are so riddled with borer and rotten that it's likely that the bike would have pulled the roof down.

A problem with the rear stand is that the swingarm doesn't sit plane with the horizontal. It's angled. If lifting bobbins have been installed on the swingarm and the stand lifts on forks, then the stand is fixed in position relative to the bike and won't work its way along the swingarm. Not so with this unit, the angle means that any movement of the bike on the stand causes things to start walking. It's only friction between the plastic-covered L-plates and the swingarm itself that keeps things where they are. I'm going to have to think about this stand, too.

The centerstand was off because it had moved while front-standing the bike, clearly it was loose in the same manner as the side stand and needed attention. Clean everything and retorque all fasteners. The bike shaking from scrubbing for this job is what finally caused this near miss. The centerstand should have waited until I had the wheels back on again, but that's easy to say after the fact.

All of this aside, the real reason this happened is that I was working fast, trying to get too many things done at once. I'd lost perspective.

Obviously (in hindsight) I shouldn't have been scrubbing while the bike was so precariously held up on the stands. I should have had auxiliary restraints in place, like the straps to the roof beams, and the roof beams themselves should be up to the shock loading. The stands should have been sorted out, at least. Etcetera. Ah well. Live and learn and then don't let it happen again, unless of course you don't live or learn or take preventative action.

I managed to jack the bike back up again (literally) by floor jack and front axle, which thankfully didn't bend or crush. I then had to get the bike back onto front and rear stands, with the floor jack getting in the way of the front stand, and the rear wheel (refitted) constantly wanting to roll the bike away from the stand on the angled bit of 2x4 underneath it. All of this while the bike was wanting to topple sideways on rear tyre and front axle... This bit of wood should have been flat. I only realised after I'd finally got the bike in place on the stands again. It's not easy to slow down and be deliberate after something like this happens.

I was also very lucky to not smash the headlight glass or destroy the nose fairing. Not a pleasant experience and not one I'm keen to repeat.

pritch

6th January 2018, 10:21

1) Oberon do pricey but good mirrors, everything else is basically a copy of the Oberon design

I'm enjoying your write-up although your skills are way in advance of mine.

CRG do nice quality mirrors, cheap they ain't but... I don't think they are copies of Oberon because CRG seem to have features Oberon lack.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/crg-hindsight-lanesplitter-bar-end-mirror

HenryDorsetCase

6th January 2018, 12:29

eldog

6th January 2018, 12:32

I had the bike just about jump off the stands yesterday. Rainy as hell outside, nobody in the street. The phone was upstairs. I was working alone. If the bike had gone over sideways on me... well. Could've been quite nasty. It's not exactly a lightweight.

There was quite a buildup to this near miss.

A problem with the rear stand is that the swingarm doesn't sit plane with the horizontal. It's angled. If lifting bobbins have been installed on the swingarm and the stand lifts on forks, then the stand is fixed in position relative to the bike and won't work its way along the swingarm. Not so with this unit, the angle means that any movement of the bike on the stand causes things to start walking. It's only friction between the plastic-covered L-plates and the swingarm itself that keeps things where they are. I'm going to have to think about this stand, too.

The centerstand was off because it had moved while front-standing the bike, clearly it was loose in the same manner as the side stand and needed attention. Clean everything and retorque all fasteners.

Obviously (in hindsight) I shouldn't have been scrubbing while the bike was so precariously held up on the stands. I should have had auxiliary restraints in place, like the straps to the roof beams, and the roof beams themselves should be up to the shock loading. The stands should have been sorted out, at least. Etcetera. Ah well. Live and learn.

good to see you are ok.
i suffered from something similar but different.
2 years and the damage I did to myself still aches, everyday I am reminded.

make sure you dot i’s cross tees. The silliest smallest thing will get you, it got me.
dont be in a hurry to finish, that’s the most dangerous time.

screw in some bolts into swing arm if you have a rear stand.

good work though:2thumbsup

OddDuck

7th January 2018, 18:40

I'm enjoying your write-up although your skills are way in advance of mine.

CRG do nice quality mirrors, cheap they ain't but... I don't think they are copies of Oberon because CRG seem to have features Oberon lack.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/crg-hindsight-lanesplitter-bar-end-mirror

Thanks Pritch. I hadn't been aware of the CRG's, I went and had a look at the site and it's obvious that these are seriously good kit. Spare glass is good to see. Thanks for passing that on.

Little bit concerned about OP's stand experience - I have "BikeLift" stands exactly the same as those... though the Street Triple has bobbins.

If you've got bobbins then your stand won't walk the way my rear stand did. Just make sure it triangles properly when it lifts the bike - there should be a decent angle front and rear on the stand, so it's locked in to the floor by the bike's weight.

good to see you are ok.
i suffered from something similar but different.
2 years and the damage I did to myself still aches, everyday I am reminded.

make sure you dot i’s cross tees. The silliest smallest thing will get you, it got me.
dont be in a hurry to finish, that’s the most dangerous time.

screw in some bolts into swing arm if you have a rear stand.

good work though:2thumbsup

Thanks Eldog. I'd wish you a speedy recovery but this is clearly one of those that stay with a person... I hope it does come right in the end.

Yep. Don't work in a hurry, don't work tired, don't work distracted.

I'm keen to find some kind of bobbin for the swingarms, both bikes. I've had the stand walk on swingarms before, just never as bad as this before.

OddDuck

7th January 2018, 19:08

A couple of bits and bobs from the work refitting axles, wheels etc...

Ducati have used large diameter, low height hex flange nuts to secure the axles. The front takes a 28 mm socket, the rear is two 30 mm's.

No problem there, it's just that the low height / high torque of the fastener can very easily introduce a problem due to the chamfer on most sockets. I had a look with my existing cheapo Powerbilt set and found that I'd get 3mm of engagement on the fastener, maybe less. There's 7mm of height to work with. Torque front: 63 Nm. Torque rear: 83 Nm.

Rip these nuts up and the phrase 'world of pain' comes to mind... I had visions of buying pricey sockets and then spinning them up (maybe in an old lathe) and having at them with an angle grinder, taking that socket entry chamfer off, flattening the end off so I'd get full engagement on the axle nut. I was very pleased to find some $18-ish Bahco six-point sockets at the local M10, with nearly flat chamfers as manufactured. Perfect.

The next bit was that the steel plates under the swingarm nuts each had a tab bent. I'd guess that they got abused during tightening up, rotating under the nut instead of staying in position on the swingarm.

Ducati's workshop manual specifies that the axle and the flange nut both get greased. This flies in the face of my previous experiences, but I did as I read and applied grease to axle, threads and nut flange. It worked. There were no issues when retightening, the axle plates stayed where they were supposed to and the straightened tabs stayed the way they were supposed to. I rechecked the rear axle torque after a ride today and the fastener hasn't loosened.

The last wee trick was rear wheel alignment. I'd been told this one a few years back at the dealer's... use a vernier caliper between axle and the rear of the swingarm. It's a quick way to make sure it's exactly the same on both sides. There needs to be a good set of surfaces to measure off, of course.

This depends on the swingarm having been made with a high degree of precision, but it's got to be better than the (un-numbered) swingarm dots and the V-notch in the axle plate. Other methods I've used in the past include long bits of 2x4 laid on tyre flanks, or laying prone on the floor and sighting along tyre edges. The bike handled OK after this adjustment, I can't have got it that far out.

Of course this meant I'd properly tensioned the chain. Should've done this about five minutes after I'd seen how flogged everything here was... massive difference in smoothness during running.

I'd cleaned the chain and sprockets during the tyre change. This showed that the replacement front sprocket locking tab washer is being chewed up very quickly. The sprocket rattling around loose on the output shaft is what's doing this... there really isn't any fix beyond replacing the flogged sprocket. Parts are on order with a new chain set and plenty of these locking tab washers, I'll just have to wait.

New tyres have transformed the handling, as well as the grip. I went for Bridgestone T30 Evo's front and rear, so far (1 day ride anyway) they're working out well.

pete376403

7th January 2018, 20:41

I measure between centre of swingarm pivot bolt and rear axle for wheel alignment. Using a tape measure, doesnt matter how accurate the tape is as long as same one is used each side. And as it happens, the swingarm alignment notches are pretty spot on.

neels

7th January 2018, 22:13

No problem there, it's just that the low height / high torque of the fastener can very easily introduce a problem due to the chamfer on most sockets. I had a look with my existing cheapo Powerbilt set and found that I'd get 3mm of engagement on the fastener, maybe less. There's 7mm of height to work with. Torque front: 63 Nm. Torque rear: 83 Nm.

The next bit was that the steel plates under the swingarm nuts each had a tab bent. I'd guess that they got abused during tightening up, rotating under the nut instead of staying in position on the swingarm.
Usually I just swing a big crescent on the axle nuts, haven't had them fall off yet. I was actually contemplating getting a couple of spanners laser cut out of some plate stainless, one day when I get around to it.

I've had to straighten the tabs on the axle plates as well, and while I'm there mark the centre, and mark the centre of the alignment marks before I put them back on. It's not the most elegant arrangement I've ever seen.

OddDuck

9th January 2018, 08:09

Usually I just swing a big crescent on the axle nuts, haven't had them fall off yet. I was actually contemplating getting a couple of spanners laser cut out of some plate stainless, one day when I get around to it.

My mate was doing similar with his bike, just using a crescent on the axle nuts. He reckoned he'd been doing it up good and tight. We were halfway through a multi-dayer when we realised that his chain was getting slack... the rear axle was walking forward. The only thing holding it really was the adjustor bolts. It turned out that the best he could do with a 12" crescent was about 25-ish Nm; the torque figure for the rear axle was 100 Nm.

Your situation hopefully is a bit better...

Toledo torque wrench in the 1/2" format, about $85 to $110. 30mm socket, $18 or so.

A while ago I tried tightening by hand versus using a torque wrench, finding out whether I was any good at it... turned out I was rubbish, and after that I've used the torque wrench.

neels

9th January 2018, 09:01

My mate was doing similar with his bike, just using a crescent on the axle nuts. He reckoned he'd been doing it up good and tight. We were halfway through a multi-dayer when we realised that his chain was getting slack... the rear axle was walking forward. The only thing holding it really was the adjustor bolts. It turned out that the best he could do with a 12" crescent was about 25-ish Nm; the torque figure for the rear axle was 100 Nm.

Your situation hopefully is a bit better...

Toledo torque wrench in the 1/2" format, about $85 to $110. 30mm socket, $18 or so.

A while ago I tried tightening by hand versus using a torque wrench, finding out whether I was any good at it... turned out I was rubbish, and after that I've used the torque wrench.
Probably should check them properly then....particularly as there is no locking mechanism whatsoever on the nuts.

Correct torque on axle bolts is a nice idea, not only so the nuts don't fall off but also so you don't end up with crushed swingarms like I've seen on a couple of bikes, I haven't had a good look at where the axle goes through on the ducati to see how it's put together and if overtightening will damage it.

I can usually take a reasonable guess at getting the torque about right, it helps to have tested torque wrenches for a living for a few years. From experience I know that the point when my arm starts shaking swinging on the 1/2" power bar doing up cortina head bolts is about 80lbf.ft ;)

OddDuck

9th January 2018, 19:03

Correct torque on axle bolts is a nice idea, not only so the nuts don't fall off but also so you don't end up with crushed swingarms like I've seen on a couple of bikes, I haven't had a good look at where the axle goes through on the ducati to see how it's put together and if overtightening will damage it.

The axle tensioners function as spacers inside the swingarm box sections, the box section will flex enough to nip up against the tensioner. After that it's solid metal the whole way through.

Crushed swingarms? What's been going on?

OddDuck

9th January 2018, 19:32

Fairings off in the garage today for the first time.

This is due to the motor cutting out on me yesterday during a trip downtown. I'd been just about to park up anyway, it died as I was walking the bike backward into the park... righto, maybe it's an overheat shutdown or something. Go off and do things, give it twenty minutes and see if it comes back after it's cooled down.

Er, no. I was turning the key and getting dash and lights but no engine joy whatever. The starter motor wouldn't even spin up, let alone turn the engine over. Right. Cutting a long story short, it turned out to be blown fuses. The two 7.5 A fuses had cooked and failed, for reasons unknown. Replacement got me home, however this isn't a good way to go out on the open road. Investigations needed.

Just some things noticed now that the fairings are finally off... all the wellnuts are rooted. So are the vibration isolators carrying the dash instruments, and the plastic instrument panel is cracked at the mounts too. The fairings feature concealed fasteners, which is a pain. The coils are on either flank of the bike, which is a strange design but would have excellent magnetic separation due to distance. It looks like there's been a leak at some point between the radiator and one of its hoses, which is probably best left well alone unless it leaks again. Not a good idea to disturb old rubber hoses like this, unless brand new spares are to hand.

I've been putting this off, waiting on the first Stein Dinse order to arrive, but I should have done this earlier. Always good to know how the fairings come off and what's underneath them.

OddDuck

9th January 2018, 19:44

With the fairings off, I got onto one of the to-do jobs and cleaned up the terminals between battery, starter solenoid and starter motor.

Simple enough: go looking for grease, dirt and oxidation, remove these, reassemble. A surprise was finding that Ducati had released the bike with passivation coating most of the nuts, washers, and the battery terminal adaptors.

Passivation is a thin coating which protects against corrosion to some degree, is easily scratched, and makes an apparent electrical connection once everything is tightened up. What it doesn't do very well is make a good high amperage connection. Trying to get 50 amps or more through the starter motor needs good metal-to-metal contact through the entire starter circuit, with broad contact and conduction areas. Anywhere current is restricted, a voltage drop will occur and oomph will be lost.

Some sanding of eyelets, nut faces, replacement of washers etc later and I was away. I haven't run the bike yet but have tried starting it. Massive improvement. The delay (press button, wait, one, two... there we go) is gone. It engages and turns the engine over straightaway.

I haven't tracked the issue with the 7.5A fuses down yet. It's possible that the fuses went due to oxidation on their connectors leading to a high resistance hotspot, local heating and thus the fuses getting cooked. It's possible that simply pulling and replacing them, thereby wiping the oxidation off the connectors, sorted the issue. It's sort of hopeful but I'll try a local ride or two with a pocket full of spares, and see how I go.

neels

9th January 2018, 21:50

The axle tensioners function as spacers inside the swingarm box sections, the box section will flex enough to nip up against the tensioner. After that it's solid metal the whole way through.

Crushed swingarms? What's been going on?
Thanks, saved me having a look.

Have seen a couple of swingarms with axles through them that have had the crap cranked out of them, if there's nothing inside and things get done up super tight things end up the wrong shape.

Anyway, stop finding things I need to check on my bike, although the upside is that I thought mine was a bit rough but apparently there are worse ones out there in the world.......

OddDuck

13th January 2018, 21:22

Having a play with the mufflers.

The ST2 is an unusual bike in that the mufflers are designed to quickly and easily raise or lower, as per OEM design. It almost takes longer to read this than to do it... there's a swivel arrangement in the tubing on the forward part of the muffler, where it joins the cross of the exhaust headers. The two swivels (one for each muffler) are tensioned against each other with a spring.

There's a bolt on the muffler hangar. The bolt has two possible positions, one lower on the bracket that carries the hard bags, one higher on the bracket for the pillion passenger foot pegs. Undo bolt, swivel muffler into new position, replace and retighten bolt. That's it, there's no need to undo the front end of the mufflers for this. Takes about a minute per side unless you're using Loctite. I'd thought I might have to take the hard bag brackets off, it turns out that this can be done if you like or they can be left on so that hard bags go on again easy later.

It's a simple enough idea: lower muffler position so that hard bags with a decent capacity will go on, higher muffler position for improved ground clearance and thus more lean angle in corners for sportier riding. The photos attempt to show this, I was interested in seeing if the foot pegs would start grounding before the mufflers did. It does look like there's a big difference in ground clearance between the two muffler positions.

The photos are shot with the RH muffler raised, the LH muffler lowered. The last two photos are rotated crops of the two front pictures.

AllanB

13th January 2018, 22:09

Years back I imported from Harbor Freight in USA a big arse vernier that allows me to measure from the centre of the swingarm pin to the rear axle - match on both sides and the rear end is sweet.

Not used on the current Ducati as it's a single sided swingarm so a cam adjuster.

Agree re Ducati's skimpy little axle nuts (weight saving?) I purchased some purpose built sockets that lock in the hollow axle as well as the nut. The rear on mine gets wound up to something silly and the scoket needs to be secure. And a front axle driver tool to tap it out sweetly. Any excuse for tools :2thumbsup

OddDuck

7th February 2018, 07:09

Just back from a five-day tour around the center of the North Island and around the East Cape. We basically did a big loop northwest, crossed east, then returned south. Highlights when riding were SH4 at sunset, going north west of Lake Taupo, the roads and little lakes east of Rotorua, the East Cape itself and Route 52, even if got windy on the last day. My mate had a few friends to see along the way and one came with us for part of the way, showing us some new back country roads between Hastings and Waipukurau.

Good back country roads, good riding, incredibly pretty on the north side of the Cape. It's been a fun trip.

However it wouldn't be touring without the unexpected...

We had to reverse the route at the last minute because of the weather. There was some juggling of motel bookings. Online bookings turned out to be surprisingly inflexible, the motellier can't change the booking without the request going through the online agency. The agency (AA Travel) doesn't seem to use a completely automated system, it looks like there are people in an office somewhere negotiating changes manually. We got there in the end but I think I'll be picking up the phone and calling the motel directly in future.

I'd made a last minute decision to go in riding jeans and a synthetic jacket with a zip-off collar (there's mesh venting frontage underneath that) instead of leathers, this paid off big time around Gisborne. There were only a couple of days that were hot but having breathable gear with vents was fantastic, particularly when messing around trying to chase up a clutch hose (yep, more unexpected).

There was a morning that was cold like winter, leaving Ohakune and going north past Ruapehu and Tongariro. I'd brought full thermals out of long habit and it was just as well... heated grips for the bike just got justified even in the middle of what's supposed to be the hottest summer we've had in a while.

The clutch hose failed halfway through the trip. Not completely, it didn't pop off or start jetting fluid or anything, but one of the crimp joints let go enough that I could only hold the clutch in for about five seconds. After that, enough of the fluid would have leaked out that the clutch was engaging again, like it or not. I'd learned about the technique of clutchless gear changes on a RideForever course and practised briefly earlier and it was just as well... I've been changing gears like this for the last three days. It's alright when at open road speeds (mostly) but a real pain in traffic situations. The clutch has worked enough to be usable at the lights and starting, but I've been having to refill the reservoir every morning and rinse the bike down with a water bottle at every stop. Brake fluid has been spraying around while riding. So far the paint and plastic have been holding up despite this, at least in the bits that I can see.

We did some running around looking for replacement hose in the biggest town we came to (Gisborne), trying two bike dealerships and a hydraulic hose and fitting outfit. No luck whatever, while running around in bike gear during the middle of the day. In the end I decided to just complete the trip with the bike the way it was and sort the mess out at home.

The biggest unexpected of the trip was the kitten. We'd gone for dinner on the first night and on the way back we heard some weird bird calling... hang on, no, that's a kitten. It was bailed up in a hedge beside the main road in Ohakune and the poor little thing was terrified, it took nearly half an hour to coax it out.

No collar, no tag, had it been dumped or was it a runaway, it didn't really matter. Couldn't leave it there. There was a place with lights still on nearby so we tried door knocking but without any luck, it wasn't theirs. So it came back with us for the night.

What an affectionate little beast. Once she had some milk and a defrosted and decrumbed fish finger into her, all she wanted to do was curl up to whoever was holding her and purr. She was really panicked from having been left roadside though, every time we tried to put her down she'd start calling for attention again, or try to hide, or both. So we couldn't leave her fenced in in the kitchen with a tray and just deal with the inevitable mess in the morning... my mate ended up with 'the duty' and got kept awake all night with a kitten curled up against his face. And there was a code brown at 2am. Next time, kitty's going on lino flooring or into a box for the night, yowling and crying be damned.

We had some more fun and games in the morning trying to find either the owner or a home. It was Ohakune, there isn't an SPCA or anything close. It was tempting to box her up, put her in the tank bag and take her home, but maybe she really was someone's and they were looking for her. So at 8am in a small country town on a Saturday, I went looking for public notices... mentioning the situation at the petrol station got me a contact phone number for a local woman who helps with community things like this, but trying to make contact with people while we're about to hit the road again didn't really work out. Messages were left etc but it took time to get responses. Nobody would accept the kitten, even on a temporary basis. We couldn't ride with her. In the end we improvised a box, put the kitten into a bag and down a jacket and rode to the nearest vet, with the plan of leaving her there over the weekend with food, water and a note. Three local teenage girls came past and my mate asked if they'd mind checking on her over the Sunday before the vet turned up again on Monday, they took one look at the little cutie, and that was that. Adored and taken.

Maybe the original owner will chase her up and track her down but given how affectionate this little cat was, she's almost certain to find a home.

MarkW

7th February 2018, 08:33

If you can get at the leaky bit a couple of cable ties and either some cotton rag or a length of cotton crepe bandage can save you having to clean up a mess. Wrap a decent amount of the absorbent material around and below the slow leak. Secure in place with the cable ties. Replace as and when required. It is surprising how far a little uncontained fluid can spread and just how much a decent layer of cotton can absorb.

When I'm on the road there's always a dozen cable ties somewhere on the bike and the crepe bandage is in the first aid kit.

Most Repco/Super Cheap stores have cable ties and any chemist has a cotton crepe bandage.

pete376403

7th February 2018, 22:46

Good on you for rescuing the kitten. Good karma should be coming your way (like maybe you can ride without something breaking)

OddDuck

9th February 2018, 06:33

Thanks MarkW - good advice. I carry cable ties in the tank bag but not a med kit, might be time to change that.

Pete376403 - yeah that'd be nice!! It really hasn't been the luckiest few months... argh

Last night I had the chance (finally) to test a modification I'd made to the front stand. I'd added weights to the handle (the V-shaped bit of tubing with a black foam rubber sleeve) and turned up a correctly sized adaptor to fit to the head tube.

The weights are some 4oz and 2oz fishing sinkers, dropped into the handle tube and retained via rag stuffing and the through bolts connecting the handle to the rest of the stand. They're intended to help the stand stay down, locked to the ground.

The adaptor is huge compared to the pieces supplied with the stand. It took a few hours to lathe this down to size. I purchased the 1020 steel bar from Wakefield Metals over the phone with a credit card - they'll cut a piece and put it in the post, both of these for a fee but you don't have to buy a full length.

This has worked. The weights help, but the adaptor is what really made the difference. Keeping the stand neck tightly in line with the steering tube has locked the stand to the bike and so removed the risk of the stand collapsing.

The height at the rear axle is important as well. With the bike on its own centerstand, the front stand doesn't quite lock in to the ground properly. With the bike raised an inch or two on the rear stand, the front stand does engage properly and becomes fixed in place. Something about the angles, with such a rigid connection between stand and bike, the bike angle relative to the floor starts to become important.

I'm happy that this is secure and safe (well, as safe as a stand gets), I'll have to sort out something for bobbins for the rear wheel stand at some point.

OddDuck

16th February 2018, 07:33

First go at assembling a hydraulic hose - replacing the blown clutch line.

I'd marked to length by comparing against the old clutch line, after pulling this off the bike. The needle file was used to get through the stainless braid without too much snagging and pulling on the wires. I had to use a knife to get through the plastic core.

Assembly was straightforward. The collar goes onto the hose first. The ferrule goes onto the plastic hose and under the braid. The banjo is pushed in, then the collar is tightened. About the only trap is not putting the ferrule onto the hose to full depth, I had to push the hose against the vise to get this to seat fully.

I'd had the bright idea of final assembly on the bike, so that banjo angles would be perfect. Nice idea, didn't quite work. The torque between the collar and the hose was far higher than that between hose and banjo, so all that ended up happening was that the hose spun while I tried to tighten the collar. In the end I had to pull the hose off the bike, clamp the banjo in the vise (Vise protector jaws used), and repeatedly tighten, fit, check angles, and tighten a little more to get something that would work.

It's do-able but laborious. I had to settle for a misalignment of 25-ish degrees, having run out of room to tighten things up further. This might explain why most of the professional hoses are crimped, there'd be none of this messing around with final angles.

I've got a set of professionally made hoses on order - this isn't a final replacement. The (removed) clutch line and the brake lines all look original, i.e. they're all about the same age, and if the clutch line has gone then the brake lines can't be far behind. A full set of brand-name, braided SS lines out of Stein Dinse cost around 400 NZD landed, so why not.

OddDuck

19th February 2018, 07:40

A last note about the hose replacement - the last stage of the fill and bleed was to clear the air trapped in the master cylinder banjo. This was done by filling and capping the reservoir, then removing the left clip-on at its triple tree mounting.

The bar was then held vertical, hose down, and the lever lightly worked a few cycles. The reason for this is to allow bubbles trapped in both the banjo and the cylindrical cavity at the banjo bolt nose to clear upwards into the master cylinder's piston. Once there, they get pushed out at the little intake hole to the reservoir, at the beginning of the piston stroke.

It sounds weird but it works. The reason I did this was that there's simply no other way I can think of, in a home garage situation, to clear those bubbles. There's only so much flowrate possible by pumping the lever.

Next little job was replacement of the instrument cluster rubber mounts. These are simple male-to-male M5 rubber vibration isolation mounts. For some reason there's one on the bottom, one on the RH side, and one almost bang in the center. The centre mount then takes most of the loading and this one had failed completely. The two on the periphery were badly cracked. I've been riding with the instrument set shaking and bouncing. Once the fairings were off, it's just a twenty minute, slightly fiddly job to undo the aluminium instrument sub-frame and get in there to change them out.

Starting the 30K service... there's the usual checklist of plugs, oil change and filters (air, oil and fuel). I'm taking the attitude that it (whatever it is) probably hasn't been looked at in quite some time or was bodged, it's worth going through everything.

Plugs: sooty. Not oiled. I did catch myself running with the choke left on during the recent East Cape trip, possibly this is the cause.

The metal shavings all over the drain plug aren't the best look. This is what happens when a clutch hose lets go and a rider has to bang their way through the gears... the gearbox engagement dogs get a pounding. It's still holding itself in gear, there's no need for a full stripdown or any such extreme response, but obviously I shouldn't make a habit of clutchless shifting for road touring.

The metal on the mesh filter is also a concern. The magnetic drain plug picks up ferrous shavings but aluminium / babbit metal will just go straight past that, hence any big-end bearing disintegration will show up on the mesh filter and nowhere else, unless the waste oil is strained and examined. This is why it's worth pulling this filter at every oil change and having a look... the Ducati owner's manual specifies 20-50 oil. 10-40 is there in the allowed oil chart (provided ambient doesn't exceed something like 30 C) but isn't preferred. I'm sure it's been running 10-40 out of the dealer's and probably for some time before that, could someone with more experience comment on the effect this would have on big end bearings please?

The chain and sprocket set came back from the trip completely stuffed. They were mostly stuffed when I set off, to be fair.

It looks like every trace of lubricant got flung out past the O-rings, hence the mess all over the rear of the bike. I wasn't oiling while on the trip and we covered quite a distance, nearly 2,000 kms. This led to lots of steel-on-steel wear (note the red dust coming out of the chain) and obvious chain sag. Replacement time, and possibly time to consider an automatic oiler.

pete376403

19th February 2018, 18:03

I believe that now the lead has been taken out of the "stuff sold as petrol" plugs will always look black-ish even when the mixture is lean.

OddDuck

19th February 2018, 18:06

A bit more work changing the old chain and sprocket set out.

I'd read, years ago, that chain and sprocket systems had to be changed whole sets at a time. No half measures: if one bit's worn, the whole lot's shot and there's no rescuing it by replacing one bit at a time. Any partial replacement will just get chewed out to the same wear level in about five minutes.

The sprocket pictured has all of 2,500 km on it. It was swapped early, onto a worn chain, simply to keep the bike going over the East Cape trip. This was done because the old sprocket was wandering over the output shaft spline in neat little orbital circles and the spline was getting ground down in a hurry. Fresh sprocket fitted, fresh sprocket spline, problem reduced if not sorted.

Unfortunately the nice new sprocket's chain teeth got sacrificed... the photo should hopefully show how the worn chain has forced the sprocket to match in relatively short order. It's one thing to read this stuff. It's another to see it with my own eyes. They really do wear as a set. There's absolutely no point changing out a worn chain / worn sprocket / whatever without changing the whole lot in one hit.

The slightly used retaining washer I'd fitted has also been munched. In places the retaining teeth are almost gone. I'm in two minds about this: grind the output spline to restore the spline end flats around the groove (they've V'd with abuse), or simply treat the retainers as disposable and change them the moment I suspect an issue. I'm leaning more toward the latter. It's an easy job to get in and swap this part out, these things are worth around $10 each, and even in this state I'd say it'll go for 5,000 km's each time.

I changed the sprocket carrier bearings, too. The outboard bearing was spinning in the housing - there was free play when installing the new bearings and in the end I had to use Loctite 222 around the bearing perimeter to make sure it stayed put. The bearing puller slide hammer set has more than justified its purchase, this little beauty has saved an incredible amount of hassle.

The new chain riveted closed without any issues. Really nice to work out of a bench vise instead of off a swingarm... the Ducati swingarm design on the ST series, which allows an endless chain to get taken off completely, is very nice to work with.

OddDuck

19th February 2018, 18:07

I believe that now the lead has been taken out of the "stuff sold as petrol" plugs will always look black-ish even when the mixture is lean.

Yeah, I've heard that we've got sooty petrol. The bike still started and ran just fine, I'm changing the plugs on general principal more than anything else.

OddDuck

19th February 2018, 20:16

New chain and sprocket set fitted. I've gone around the the swingarm, engine casing and wheel rim with water soluble degreaser while everything's apart.

The damage done to the clutch slave from the front sprocket wandering outboard is clearly visible - there's not really any point in cleaning this carved-up lip of aluminium off. It might be useful in future if I let a retaining washer run for too long and get chewed out, this lip is about the only thing really preventing the front sprocket from walking right off the output shaft.

There was a slight problem with the wheel alignment - the swingarm plates (under the axle nuts) exert very high pressure on the swingarm paint, and as such have started to carve their way into the paintwork. This means that they've cut places that they like to sit. That placement in turn means that once the chain's replaced, adjustment starts getting difficult, because the plates walk a bit while the axle nuts are being done up. I had to take a couple of goes at it before I was happy with alignment and chain tension.

The tie-down strap turned out to be very helpful in refitting the rear wheel. The towel's there to protect the bodywork. The strap doesn't really lift the wheel, but it was very good at holding it nearly in position while the axle was fitted. Once the weight's taken up, it's easy to juggle the wheel with one hand and the axle with the other.

OddDuck

20th February 2018, 20:35

Changing the air filter.

I've lifted the tank via the latch bar and an overhead strap rather than use the tank prop. Ducati really had a brain fart with this particular item, it's a steel rod hinged at the engine with a plain (stabby) end for the fuel tank and a rubber bulb to try to keep anything from getting dented, scored or outright punctured. There's no clearly defined place on the tank for the bulb, as far as I can tell. The picture in the owner's manual shows this being lodged into a corner somewhere in the filter / pump flange assembly underneath the fuel tank.

Not Ducati's finest design. It's right next to stuff that really shouldn't get damaged, there's a lot of force on it, the rubber bulb is cracked and I don't trust the thing. Another to add to the list...

Anyway, the old air filter quite clearly showed the dirt once the new one was next to it. This is a good thing, it means that the filter has been doing its job. It also means that it's (by eye anyway) well due for changing. If it's loaded up enough then the engine won't breathe through it properly, there's also the risk that some of the particulates will make their way through the filter matrix and get into the motor.

One thing that was a surprise was noticing the main design feature of the airbox: it's split in two. There's a divider running vertically, neatly separating the box into two side-by-side halves. The halves share the same air filter but end up being isolated from each other's pulses. Otherwise they're classic Helmholz resonators: a closed volume with an inlet pipe of known diameter and length (the snorkel) feeding the butterfly valve of the intake manifold. The idea is to use the induction pulses to get a bouncing effect going on the incoming air, tuning this so that the intake has positive pressure just at the time that it's needed. The airbox's non-spherical internal shape would lend itself to relatively mild resonance over a fairly broad range, helping the engine breathe over the most useful RPM without any sudden peaks or surges in power.

I think this split was done to get around the L-twin engine's non symmetric intake timings, an intake pulse from one cylinder won't upset the resonance being used to help the next cylinder breathe. It's a very simple feature and (I think, anyway) a very clever idea.

pete376403

20th February 2018, 21:54

One thing that was a surprise was noticing the main design feature of the airbox: it's split in two. There's a divider running vertically, neatly separating the box into two side-by-side halves. The halves share the same air filter but end up being isolated from each other's pulses. Otherwise they're classic Helmholz resonators: a closed volume with an inlet pipe of known diameter and length (the snorkel) feeding the butterfly valve of the intake manifold. The idea is to use the induction pulses to get a bouncing effect going on the incoming air, tuning this so that the intake has positive pressure just at the time that it's needed. The airbox's non-spherical internal shape would lend itself to relatively mild resonance over a fairly broad range, helping the engine breathe over the most useful RPM without any sudden peaks or surges in power.

I think this split was done to get around the L-twin engine's non symmetric intake timings, an intake pulse from one cylinder won't upset the resonance being used to help the next cylinder breathe. It's a very simple feature and (I think, anyway) a very clever idea.

Good explanation of air box design and purpose and why putting individual pod filters on will probably screw up an otherwise ok engine, requiring much investment of time in jetting and a richer fuel mix to get the engine running something close to what it was like was before the airbox was swapped out for pods.

OddDuck

21st February 2018, 07:23

Good explanation of air box design and purpose and why putting individual pod filters on will probably screw up an otherwise ok engine, requiring much investment of time in jetting and a richer fuel mix to get the engine running something close to what it was like was before the airbox was swapped out for pods.

Thankyou. I went through just that on the 900SS after going from airbox to pods. The pods were done so that I could properly triangulate the frame (repeated problems with cracking), once this was done the airbox couldn't be used.

My experience, for anyone out there thinking of going to pods on a carburetted bike, was that you need:

- Jet kits for mains, pilot, slow air, basically every variation on every jet used
- Needle kits with different tapers, main diameters, etc
- Dyno runs on one of the rigs that have exhaust gas monitoring
- A systematic, planned approach to the whole endeavor. Experience counts.

I'd put the budget for doing the tuning properly at well over $2K. So far I've been skimping on the dyno runs and going cheap with an AFR gauge. That's limited by the fact that full throttle isn't really possible except on a closed, long and straight road, I can tune up to about half throttle with publicly available riding but after that things get risky.

The ST2 is injected, so any changes (K&N air filter and aftermarket pipes, say) will need ECU reprogramming - not exactly easy to do at home. The plan with this bike is to keep it as close to stock as possible, at least for now. I'd like to start stuff like opening the mufflers up (I want that bass sound) but until I have the 900SS sorted out properly, it's smart to keep this one reliable.

OddDuck

23rd February 2018, 07:41

Timing belts and shims, finally. This is one of the critical jobs on a non-bevel Ducati, the engine can sustain major damage in very short order if a belt snaps.

Major damage: piston meets mis-timed valve, destroying both and probably taking out the cylinder head as well. I imagine there'd be further damage through the engine due to the shock loading. There's a chance that this could lock the engine up totally, probably while riding, possibly while banked over in a corner. Maybe at speed.

Ducati take a very conservative approach to their belts because of this sort of consequence. The rule is 20,000 kms / 2 years. Get to either of those and that's it, change belts time. In a world of automotive timing belts and cam chains which are rated to 100,000 km's or further, this sort of high maintenance change frequency sounds pretty paranoid, but they're trying to run the belts right on the left of the reliability bell curve. Zero failures, in short.

There weren't any maintenance records with the bike when I purchased, with 26K on the clock. I've taken the risk-taking view that I'd inspect and make a decision at the 30K service interval, since checking would be due at that mileage anyway. I had no idea whether the belts would have been changed at all.

It turns out that they have, probably at the scheduled 20K interval. From the Carweb sheet I was given, the bike was imported ex-Japan on 12th May 2016, with 18K already on the clock. I've taken the guess that the belts were changed on import and therefore were coming up to the 2 year interval. That's a best case. There's a chance that the belts had been changed in Japan, the bike was inspected on arrival and passed, and so the belts could very well be from a two-year interval (whenever that happened) and could be now be several years old.

The belts that came off were CA Cycleworks Exactfit belts. I've had these before and had no issues with them. These ones are unusual though, I've never seen rubber so shiny before. The teeth almost look polished. I compared these against an old set (same brand) off the 900SS and the rubber is definitely more worn. I couldn't say anything about the cords inside though. There's a lot of rubber dust inside the covers, too.

Practicalities: the timing cases are tucked behind various bits of frame, wiring, and the battery box. The tank has to be lifted to access the top part of the vertical cylinder's cover and the fairing has to come off completely. An extended length 5mm socket driver, instead of the usual Allen key, was a great help given the difficulty of getting at a few of the cap screw heads.

The position Ducati use to set belt timing, as shown by white dots on crankcase, cylinder head rubber shields, and timing pulleys, leaves the vertical cylinder wanting to rotate away while the belt is being fitted. It was very helpful to have the timing pulley fastener tool handy, I used this to position the pulley against the valve closer springs while fitting the new belt.

Belt tension was set by using a 5mm Allen key as a feeler gauge, with the belts in a neutral position, on both cylinders. By neutral position I mean not under tension, which will happen when the closer springs on the relevant camshaft are engaged. I had to rotate the engine to a couple of different positions to do this, then rotate the engine through a full cycle or two (with spark plugs removed) to check for any mistimings and mechanical collisions. Then I checked belt tension again at multiple different engine positions, it was easy enough to do.

There's a lot of angst about correct timing belt tension on Ducatis. People out there use quite a few methods:

Resonance, pluck the belt like a guitar string and listen (with laptop, software and microphone) to the ringing frequency
Twist - set tension so the belt can be twisted to X degrees but not further (I am not a fan of this method)
Force tension - use a 10 N push / pull tool

There are the factory methods, starting with the 10 N tool above and since following a path of increasingly specialised, expensive tools and procedures. As someone on another forum said, it's a timing belt, it will work over a range of tensions, what kills them is gross over or under tension, oil, and leaving them too long.

I've used an Allen key feeler gauge method successfully through full timing belt lives on the air-cooled 900SS (5mm horizontal, 6mm vertical). I used 5mm on both cylinders on the ST2, since it's a liquid-cooled engine and likely to be running at a uniform temperature. The trick is to get the feel right and err on the side of the belt being slightly too loose.

OddDuck

24th February 2018, 07:17

Brake hose replacement - rear.

The Frentubo brake hoses I'd ordered from Stein Dinse have arrived. Preventative maintenance time, after the experience with the clutch line I'd prefer to avoid having another hose failure.

The hoses arrive as a bolt-on kit complete with banjos and washers, there's no hose assembly needed. Installation was simply noting the arrangement of the old hose (I took photos to show banjo angles on the original), wrapping everything in rags, taking the old hose off and then placing the new hose. Hose clamps and guides were refitted and then I tightened the banjos once I was happy with the routing.

I placed hose screening against vibration and chafing in the wire clamp, this piece of the hose has to be free to move with swingarm motion. The U-clamp used to secure the hose to the swingarm was sized for the standard rubber hose, so it was too large in diameter. A piece of 12.5mm OD, 6.5 (ish) mm ID fuel hose turned out to make a perfect hose bushing.

Refilling / bleeding turned out to be simple, I'd had visions of air locks etc but all it took was the standard bleeding procedure:

Pressurise brake lever
Release bleed nipple
Watch fluid and / or air flow into bleed bottle
Tighten bleed nipple with brake lever still in
Release brake lever
Repeat as needed.

It took a while to get the master cylinder to draw fluid from the little reservoir jar properly but after that there were no issues, the system came up to pressure very quickly.

OddDuck

24th February 2018, 07:36

Brake hose replacement - front.

Fitting was very similar to the rear line. Bleeding got a bit more involved and I ended up using a gravity bubble clearing method: air will move upwards through the system. Eventually it gets to the reservoir and is cleared via the ejection port on the master cylinder's piston.

One of the photographs shows the reservoir, with the two feeder holes for the master cylinder visible on the bottom. The disturbances on the fluid surface are air bubbles being ejected and bursting. This turned out to be difficult to photograph cleanly due to low light and high speed, the bubbles move very quickly.

The key things about the gravity method is that it takes time, it depends on everything being angled upwards, and air traps have to be manually angled so that air can escape upwards into hose lines. The photo of the front caliper is there to show the angle of one of the banjos: this is unlikely to clear the last air bubbles by bleeding, if they're above the fluid flow then they're not likely to be snatched by fluid turbulence and drawn out during bleeding.

At the reservoir itself, the final banjo and its attachment to the reservoir can form an air trap, so the reservoir itself has to be taken off the bar and tilted vertical with the reservoir filled and capped while the lever is worked over the first part of its motion.

I tried this sort of thing with the calipers but suspect it'd work better if I worked the lever and pushed pots back in, as well as simply tilting the unit. Fluid movement, even tiny amounts back and forth, seems to help the air bubbles to clear upwards.

It did work. It isn't quite 100%. The lever's still a little spongy, either there's air trapped in the calipers following hose swap or old, squashy fluid is behind the pots, but it's ridable.

OddDuck

20th March 2018, 17:54

Repairing a broken fairing screw mounting post.

This is one of those short towers of plastic that stick out, carrying a moulded-in brass nut. It's been broken somehow and needed repair. I'd thought an end-to-end glue fix wouldn't be strong enough so found an old bushing off the car that was the right ID to go over the post, then hacksawed and filed the end of this to match the inner curve of the panel. After that it was simple matter of mixing up some Araldite, assembling the plastic components, and pushing the bushing over the lot. The bushing sits high but it's a clearance fit over the metal mounting post between the fairing panel and the bike's frame, there were no issues re-mounting the panel.

This fix has worked but I had issues with the Araldite proving remarkably slow to set. Does anyone know if this stuff has a shelf life?

That done, I finally got onto the clutch plate set. It's been wanting doing ever since purchasing the bike: the clutch juddered and squealed on release while starting off, also gear changes have always been a bit clunky. Lately gear changes have been getting worse, particularly getting into first gear from neutral with the bike stopped. It's changing with a noticeable clunk.

Clutches have to engage fully, or deliver a controllable amount of torque to the rear wheel if some slip is needed. They also have to mostly disengage for gear changes. Not completely. Some small amount of torque is still needed to turn the input shaft against the output shaft, making sure that the gearbox dogs are spun through a chance to engage. Otherwise (zero torque case) if those dogs aren't in the right place, shifting won't be possible. This can be seen with a bike up on the stands, with a stopped engine - if changing through the gears, the rear wheel will have to be rotated. There will be positions where gear changes aren't possible without turning the rear wheel. One gear shaft has to be rotated relative to the other.

So, some torque needed, not too much though. If the clutch isn't disengaging enough then it'll be transmitting more torque than is needed to guarantee a clean gearchange, and that means the gearbox dogs, gear teeth, various bearings through the drivetrain, chain and sprockets, etc etc, are all getting shock loads applied. I'll be hammering the drivetrain every time I change gears. It won't kill things immediately but it will affect component lifetimes.

So, the famous Ducati tambourine, the dry clutch. There's a basket, carrying friction plates. This basket is driven by the engine's primary output gear and rotates full time with the engine running. Inside this is a splined hub which is mounted on the gearbox input shaft. The hub carries plain steel plates which are alternated with friction plates in the overall assembly. At the end of the stack is a pushrod-operated pressure plate. This pressure plate squeezes the plate stack shut via six springs which are attached to the hub, or releases pressure (and therefore friction) if it's pushed away from the stack via the pushrod.

That's the theory, anyway. The clutch depends on things being straight and square in order to work properly, and that's where the trouble starts...

What happens with old Ducati clutches is that the friction disc tangs get hammered by the basket, due to being endlessly tumbled in the basket's cage while the engine runs. The disc edges mushroom out, like the end of an old chisel. If this is allowed to go on for long enough, the mushrooming ends up contacting the steels, lifting them off the friction surface. The mushrooming can also mean that the friction discs start contacting each other instead of being loaded through the steels.
The other major effect is the steels cutting their way into the splines of the clutch hub. Once notched in, they can jam axially or skew, then there are problems.

It's easy enough to get into the clutch basket assembly. Once the outer cover is removed, it's just a question of undoing the six spring bolts and pulling the pressure plate. A couple of mechanic's magnetic retrieval tools help greatly with pulling the discs out of the clutch.

OddDuck

20th March 2018, 18:46

And the fix... lots of filing. I was there for three hours.

The frictions were filed while held flat on the edge of the bench, taking the mushrooming off. The steels were carefully chamfered over every face of their splines while held in the bench vise, roughly 30 degrees, 0.25-ish mm chamfer depth from the original edge. Ducati used some kind of vibratory finishing process to break the steel's spline edges during original manufacture but it really hasn't been enough, there has to be enough of a chamfer for the disc to climb and slide over any notching in the clutch hub's splines.

During this I had to be careful to keep file pressure light and not work too far outboard from either bench or vise. Too much force and it'd be easy to bend a disc. Once bent they'll be all but impossible to straighten out again, and that'll be it for pretty well the entire disc stack if there aren't spares.

I left the two innermost steels as they'd been supplied, the original edges can be seen in the photo of the stacked discs. These ones don't move and won't have issues with notching into the relatively soft clutch hub. At least that's my excuse, I'd had enough by the time I got to them and decided to just leave them.

The clutch pressure plate had a couple of issues, too. It was tri-lobed after manufacture - I presume it's lathed flat after casting and is held in something with three jaws during machining, resulting in a not perfectly flat surface. This probably isn't all that big a problem but I don't like it. About twenty minutes with some 120-grit wet-n-dry and a flat-ish underplate worked. I used an orbital motion while sanding and rotated the pressure plate every few orbits in order to randomise any non-uniformities from the plate under the paper. The pushrod end cup had gone rusty, jamming the pushrod in - hence the punch out with a jeweller's screwdriver (I didn't have a pin punch small enough) and a mechanic's socket to support the other side of the pushrod cup - and lots of wiping rust out with CRC and cotton buds. It's not really possible to get in there with sandpaper unless the O-ring is to be sacrificed.

Riding today showed that all this work was worth it. The clutch is working well. Nice smooth gear changes, no problems with full engagement (although I'd have to hill climb somewhere to really test the engine at full torque). The friction tangs are stuffed, there's no getting around the need to replace the disc set at some point, but this'll keep it going for a bit longer.

OddDuck

10th April 2018, 20:59

The clutch still isn't releasing properly. This time I've tried pulling the clutch hub out, finding that it's the OEM aluminium-over-steel assembly, with integral rubber shock absorbing cush dampers. This is good news, I'd wanted to be sure that shock loads were being minimised through the gearbox.

What isn't good news is how heavily notched the hub has become. The cuts and grooves are clearly visible on the splines, even after an attempt to clean up with sandpaper (I did this instead of file because I'd wanted to take the edges off via flex in the paper, while leaving as much metal in place as possible). This will be binding the steels up, if there's any engagement whatever in these grooves (and this is a given after the clutch has transmitted some torque). The steels won't be free to slide axially, which is needed if the clutch is to release properly.

Le sigh. I've ordered a replacement hub, at some point old components are simply stuffed and it's replacement time. While doing this work I finally noticed something disturbing... the basket can be moved radially by hand, it's flexing on its bearings.

The system that Ducati use is that the crankshaft outputs shaft power via a gear. This connects to a larger gear, which has the clutch basket mounted on it. This floats on a pair of bearings on the gearbox input shaft, so that it's concentric with this shaft but not linked to it unless the clutch is engaged. It should rotate cleanly but that's all, it shouldn't flex in any way. Bearings and pump cover gasket are on order too.

OddDuck

10th April 2018, 21:08

Another wee spot of work, this time something reasonably simple - replacing the Bowden cable used for the speedo. The original snapped via rust and neglect. Motion Pro do a generic replacement kit for this exact purpose.

Not much to it really, cut to length, use the included tool and crimp the right end tongue onto the cable via block and hammer. I matched lengths using the original broken cable and cut the new one as gently as possible with a Dremel and cut-off wheel. About the only gotcha is that the correct length isn't end to end, it's end to flange on the speedo drive fitting.

A surprising amount of C-shaped cable fragments came out of the cable housing - it's well worth while running a couple of welding rods or similar wire through this before fitting the new inner cable.

OddDuck

10th April 2018, 21:46

Riding, probably the last ride of the summer, notchy clutch and all.

A quick three-dayer around the northern part of the South Island. The useful info I can remember:

The Interislander is starting to provide half-OK tie downs for bikers, at least on the ferry over. Lots of riders don't seem to know how to use them though... expect odd knots where someone gave up trying to work them out and just used them as a hook and a rope. I had to help a couple of bikers with how to set them up and then how to release them again on the other side. Also don't expect enough of them per sailing, free tie downs for your bike not guaranteed.

Lots of USB charging ports provided too. Good to see that they've never stopped improving.

The Kaikoura coast road: what the road crews have managed to do would be seriously interesting to a civil engineer. As it is, it's pretty interesting to see, but not particularly good riding. There's 30 k zones everywhere, single lane stop and waits, broken tarmac and gravel etc etc. It was a bit like this on the inland route too, there were plenty of patches on the road where loose gravel had been left as ball bearing traps for incautious bikers. It was good from Picton right through to Kekorangu though.

Hanmer Springs: the famous pools open 10 am to 9 pm. This can a bit disappointing if you're arriving late and leaving early...

Arthur's Pass: mindblowing on a good day. We got lucky, we had a good day. It was awesome. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it in the current weather though, and heaven help a biker caught in icy conditions on the steep bits.

Buller Gorge, Punakaiki Rocks coast area: lots of tourists and campervans but no issues with driver behaviour or road clogging / nana drivers etc.

Tophouse Road: one of the sweetest bits of tarmac I've done in NZ, well worth it as a fun way north to Nelson from St Arnaud. None of the road damage seen further east. Look out for something called 88 Mile Road or similar, it narrows down a bit but keeps the fun going a bit longer.

St Arnaud: the Clinker cafe is fantastic, slightly pricey perhaps but so worth it. Go to the service station side of the road, take the first left after the servo and it's up at the end. Traffic through St Arnaud has eased greatly now that Kaikoura's open again. It's possible that the unbroken double yellows and 80 zones seen between St Arnaud and Murchison have been opened up again to the usual 100 km normal open road etc a bit but I could be mistaken.

A great trip and a good way to end the summer.

OddDuck

14th April 2018, 18:44

Sorting out an issue with the Oxford Hot Grips - the left keeps coming loose. It was too loose a fit on the bars and despite using plenty of superglue it still breaks free, the latest time was just after coming back from the SI trip. This is the third time I've glued it on, hopefully it's the last...

I've increased bar diameter by using a rolled 0.10 mm shim. The shim material was bought through Blackwoods Protector, but it's widely available as kits at most engineering supplies shops - you get an envelope of common thicknesses. Marking and cutting was as simple as ruler, Sharpie and tin snips, rolling was done with a screwdriver clamped in the bench vise and bare hands.

I didn't manage to photo the gluing process due to having no time before the superglue would start setting, but here's the rough sequence:

Get shim fitted about 1/4 way into grip
Put glue on outside surface of shim, compress shim, push shim into grip
Dribble glue down split line of shim inside grip, run a ring of glue around inner perimeter of shim, then rapidly push shim onto bar
Wipe any excess off.

I wore safety glasses and gloves for all this of course (way too easy to glue fingers together or eyes shut etc) and had cheapo bath towels down over the bike's bodywork.

This done I then left it well alone while the glue set. It's very tempting to see it it's gone solid immediately after placing it by twisting the thing in order the test the strength of the bond, but if it breaks free, it'll never set properly. I'll be able to test it out next time I ride.

OddDuck

14th April 2018, 19:03

Fitting Bark Busters for winter.

It's going to be (ahem) interesting to see what comments I get, while out riding with these. I got caught in a southerly front plus rain during the SI tour and it would have been very nice to have had weather protection for fingers.

The guards themselves are the flexible textile versions of the usual ABS and aluminium Bark Busters. They're intended to flex when contacting fairings, so should go onto a range of sport / road touring bikes. They're obviously practical. Not sure about the look though...

They come with a fitting kit. I wanted to keep the bar end mirrors and this meant either stacking anodised or painted components and hoping everything held together, or making custom fittings. I've heard too many stories about bar ends falling off during rides so it was off to the workshop for me.

Bare aluminium on bare aluminium has an interesting property: it is a terrible bearing pair. The metal will instantly surface weld if there's any relative motion and then the surfaces tear each other up. The counterpoint to this is that it's a great clamping pair. The metal components will grip each other, even with relatively low clamping forces. Of course I'll have to see how I go with actual ride use and weathering.

OddDuck

14th April 2018, 19:23

Back into the clutch, as well. It's started juddering again, and there are notchy gear changes, so clearly the work done earlier hasn't fixed everything.

I stripped the cover, pressure plate and springs, then the plate stack, hub and basket. While doing this I noticed that the basket has a wear pattern on the tangs that I haven't seen before: it's sawtoothed in profile. What I've seen on Ducati baskets before has been semi-circled or dished in nice uniform curves matching the plate tangs.

The wear profile is also asymmetric, it's much more heavily worn in the drive direction than in on the engine braking side of the tangs. These other sides of the basket tangs are worn in the usual dish shape, indicating random clatter while idling in neutral, and this wear is much lighter.

The plate stack, carefully filed earlier, is not only mushroomed again but also angled in the drive direction. No wonder the clutch isn't releasing properly - the contact on the basket isn't square, it's angled, and will tend to hold the friction plates in instead of letting them slide outwards.

I'd noticed earlier that the basket seems to be loose on its bearings. After some thought, it looks like what's happening is that the basket is moving (ever so slightly) relative to the plate stack while riding with the clutch engaged, and this movement is causing this wear pattern on the tangs. It's happening under load, not while clattering in neutral. Or so I think. Certainly the basket shouldn't be this loose on its bearings. The friction plate tangs have worn very rapidly and gone from square filed to tapered, the damage I'm seeing has happened in just 2,000 km.

I've left the friction plates as is for now, but have filed the basket tangs straight and square. This is a bodge fix at best unfortunately, the friction plate tang to basket clearance is now a mile wide and everything's going to rattle, causing further rapid mushrooming and wear. While doing this I noticed what look like flap disk marks on the basket, it seems that someone has been in doing this before. Certainly the 8 x M8 bolts holding the basket to its carrier haven't been properly sealed. On assembly these are supposed to be gasketed with Loctite 510, so that engine oil doesn't enter the clutch compartment.

OddDuck

17th April 2018, 19:21

Changing out the primary drive output wheel's bearings.

Clutch completely stripped (hub and basket both off), it's the engine cover next. Before doing that I pulled the spacer from the input shaft spline.

This wee beast has an O-ring on an internal groove. It grips the shaft tightly and there's no positive feature on the thing to pull or lever at. I'd ending up taking a Dremel to the one on the 900SS to make slots and then using a bearing puller, this time around I made myself a handle via two hose clips. The 1/4" spanner and screwdriver bit were needed for tightening these up, there isn't access for normal tooling unless slender wall sockets are available.

Once the pump cover is off, the output wheel slides out. I used my slide hammer set to yank the outboard bearing and seal in one go. This showed quite a bit of black gunk on the narrow outer bearing - it looks like this area of the engine doesn't see much in the way of oil circulation. Particulates build up on the seal side of the bearing. It's easy to see why the basket might have got a bit wobbly.

As to why this might have happened, given that it's the same design as the 900SS and that was fine until engine rebuild at 46,000 miles, my best take is that it's a combination of my clutchless changes during the East Cape tour, the 10,000 km oil change intervals, and sitting around. A lot of black gunk seems to be in the oil that I drained (I'm at 35,000 km now, i.e. 5,000 since the last oil change). If the bike's been sitting for long intervals, and I know that the previous owner wasn't putting high mileages onto it per year, it's also believable that the bearing wasn't being wetted enough to be lubricated properly during engine startups. It's then placed under immediate load as soon as first gear is selected.

I drove the replacement bearings home with a socket and hammer. Simple enough but there were two problems, both of them my fault:

1) the bearings in this gear wheel sit face to face via a matched circlip and central spacer, these move just enough that they aren't a solid base to drive against. Every time I drove one bearing home I'd knock the other out. I finally realised that I couldn't drive against the wheel with the bearing itself sitting unsupported except for a soft rag, I had to put something underneath both wheel and bearing.

2) any dirt left in the socket, if it's been sitting upright on the bench or similar, will get knocked out and go straight through the nice new bearing on the first hammer blow. Gotta clean that socket properly first... I ended up spraying CRC through the bearings and then re-oiling prior to assembly.

OddDuck

18th April 2018, 07:56

Changing the large diameter seal in the pump cover. This is early (in terms of km's) but since I've got the spare available and the cover off, it makes sense to. The original seal does show signs of wear.

As far as I'm aware neither Ducati nor the aftermarket make any kind of a tool for this job. I'm not even sure what the official factory procedure would be... I ended up using a lathe and a drill press to make my own dedicated tool for this job.

The tool is in three main parts:

A collar with a throat wide enough for the seal to fit into at one side and flanged down at the other
A press plate, wider diameter than the seal
A driving plate, very slightly smaller diameter than the seal and machined precisely to fit the metal body of the seal at the rear.

There's a bit of juggling of plates, seal and collar to make the thing work but the basic idea is to drive the old seal out with the driving plate and then drive the new seal in with the press plate. The press plate being larger diameter than the seal means that it'll drive to the correct depth relative to the pump cover.

An improvement to the tool would be a very large diameter threaded fastener fixed in the center (60mm or larger) instead of using 8 independent screws, but this works, albeit with a lot of gradual tightening and some tilting of the seal relative to the cover.

OddDuck

21st April 2018, 22:01

Since I've bought the bike I've been thinking it's got a slightly twisted front end. A minor whoopsie at some point, slight wrench of the triple trees, perfectly rideable as is but annoying all the same. Today I finally got onto straightening it out and had an unexpected result.

The short answer is that the triple tree / steering stem / forks etc are all fine. I've got a bent RH clip-on. It's folded enough that the outboard end is about 10mm off where it should be. No wonder the bike feels a bit weird sometimes, or I've felt like I'm riding twisted up.

This is something quite new to me. I've certainly had bikes drop and rotate their clip-ons around the fork leg, or similar... actually bending one of these would take some force. They aren't tubular, these clip-ons (if that's the right name?) are solid aluminium castings. Given that they bolt fairly rigidly onto the top triple clamp plate though and there's no way to slip, it's believable that a relatively minor spill could do this.

The giveaway was eyeballing the line of the ruler against the line of the grip. I did this on both sides and the LH gives a parallel line between ruler and grip, with the RH as pictured. Took quite a while to get there though... I spent ages mucking around with lining the wheel up and trying to twist the bars. The giveaway was was that the bar bases measured the same on both sides (with wheels in line via string and measurements taken via tape measure) but the bar ends didn't.

As to the wheel alignment method... it's a bit ghetto but it works, albeit with a serious drawback. The string is placed in line with the rear tyre's edges, then the offset from the front tyres edges is measured via a ruler and the front wheel turned in-line with that. The bar ends positions can then be checked against a datum point on the frame (these datums have to be symmetrical about the centerline of course). It greatly helps to be able to sight down the line of each string from vertically overhead, which I couldn't quite do here. The contact against the rear tyre forward edge has to be bang on, just touching and no more. Previously I've just squinted and sight-lined against tyre edges, which is fuzzy at best. The string is an improvement over this.

The drawback is that there's no clamping force on the front wheel whatever. If the front end is off the ground, as it has to be with the fork clamp bolts released, any attempt at an adjustment means having to get down to the ground and realign everything before measuring whether or not the alignment worked. There's a lot of up-and-down. It's OK for one bike but if I had to do this several times I'd probably look into making a couple of full length beams with offsets (for the front tyre) and through bolts for clamping.

Anyway... a very long day to find out that one component is bent and needs replacing. I'm not keen to just bend it back. I have no idea how much of this kind of abuse the cast alloy bar can take and I'd really rather not have the thing come off in my hand after hitting a decent bump in the road.

While the front end was up, I took the time to check front and rear wheel bearings, head bearings, and swingarm bearings. Everything came in fine. That's just push-pull while sitting on the garage floor of course.

Some handling issues may be down to wear on the tyres of course - I replaced both front and rear just after purchasing the bike, meaning that the Bridgestone T30 Evo's have now done approx. 9,000 km.

AllanB

22nd April 2018, 09:53

The throttle side may be slightly longer than the clutch due to the extra hardware for the throttle where there is only a one switch block on the left. Which would give a different measurement.

OddDuck

22nd April 2018, 21:27

The throttle side may be slightly longer than the clutch due to the extra hardware for the throttle where there is only a one switch block on the left. Which would give a different measurement.

Thanks Allan but I'm not measuring length here, I'm looking at whether things are in line and straight or not. Hopefully the photo shows that the grip isn't in line with the ruler's edges. The left hand grip was straight and true by the same test, in comparison.

OddDuck

9th June 2018, 11:09

The gearchange is still a bit notchy so I've been doing some investigation.

There's a very good writeup of dry clutch behaviour here:

http://www.desmotimes.com/clutch.pdf

Snyder only lightly touches on clutch throw, taking the view that if there's enough to separate the stack then it's OK. I think it's a bit more important than that, if you don't have enough throw then you will have some problems:

1) gearchanges are going to go through with a bang, thus shock loads on dogs, gearbox bearings, gears themselves, the crankshaft etc
2) finding neutral can be difficult or even impossible
3) the clutch itself will get thrashed in relatively short order.

If the clutch isn't releasing properly, there's still torque being coupled across it when a different gear ratio (up or down) is selected. That means a very abrupt speed change, thus a rotational shock load across basket, plates and hub. Basically the tangs will get hammered forward or backward on every gear change, and so will the splines of the hub. Mushroomed tangs, dished baskets, and notched hubs follow, leading to problems with the plates not sliding axially any more.

Previously I've checked for clutch disengagement by centerstanding the bike, and with the engine off, turning the rear wheel by hand with the bike in first gear. Pull clutch in, overcome initial stickyness, presto the rear wheel turns freely and there's some very quiet rattle from the clutch, indicating motion inside the housing.

If the clutch cover is off then it's also possible to watch the plate stack move. The result here was disappointing: the plate stack didn't follow the pressure plate. Most of the travel wasn't used, with a clear 1mm gap left between pressure plate and the topmost plate in the stack. The clutch still seemed to release OK though, with light torque between rear wheel and engine. Unfortunately this isn't a test that matches running conditions, since the basket isn't turning.

This time around I tested by doing something dangerous: I took the cover off, centerstanded the bike, put it into the highest gear, and ran the test with the engine running and the basket spinning under power. This allowed me to watch what the clutch did in its natural habitat, so to speak.

I was very careful to keep the rear brake on during this test, keeping the rear wheel stationary at all times. The clutch was never fully released, I'd let it bite lightly at the most to test the action, but generally kept the lever pulled all the way in. Previous experience of allowing the rear wheel to spin up had been that the chain started whipping and the bike started jumping on the stand.

Having the bike jump off the stand, while in gear, engine running, with a moving parts cover off... hmm. Not good.

I was also very careful about things like shoelaces (just waiting to get sucked into that clutch, if actuating the rear brake by foot), wristwatches, loose sleeves etc. Anyone with long hair: tie it back and wear a beanie or similar as well, it's really tempting to get in close for a better look and that spinning clutch is just waiting to grab and yank anything it can.

Like I said, this is dangerous. All it would take is one second's worth of moving before thinking.

Anyway, the result: the clutch behaviour is very different when spinning. The plate stack separates beautifully and follows the pressure plate. Torque transmission seems different to stationary as well, it's still transmitting torque even though the stack has clearly opened up. I couldn't test for this without risking spinning the back wheel up, though.

After shutdown (and pulling the ignition key) I ran a few tests with the clutch cover off. Throw was measured via the vernier caliper between the spring cup and the pressure plate, for the following situations:

Engine cold, full spring set: 1.62 mm

Engine cold, half spring set: 1.75 mm

Engine hot, full spring set: 1.66 mm (this last was done after a half hour ride, I didn't just warm up in the garage)

I was checking for squash on the hydraulic lines. Hot vs cold should be obvious enough - is the clutch fluid suffering local boiling - but the half spring set may want explaining.

Measuring at full spring, then half, allows extrapolation to zero return force - ie a measure of clutch travel if the hydraulic system was perfect. If I cleaned and bled the system perfectly, this travel would be what I could expect.

Full: 1.62 mm
Half: 1.75 mm, ie a difference of 0.13 mm
Zero: 1.75mm + 0.13mm = 1.88 mm, or thereabouts. A little bit of angular deviation on the vernier during measurement would knock the precision about so there's a fair bit of uncertainty on these numbers.

It's a lot easier to run this measurement and calculation than it is to spend a few hours stripping everything, methodically going through the clean up / bleed procedure. The reason I did this was because I suspected that there simply wouldn't be enough clutch throw anyway.

There are 7 friction plates interleaved and bookended with 9 steel plates, in the stack. That's 14 friction surfaces used to transmit torque. On a 1.62 mm throw, that's a separation between plates of just 0.116 mm.

That's not much of a tolerance band for plates which aren't perfectly flat. If they're even slightly dished, bowed, warped etc, then there'll be an area of contact somewhere. If there's any force on that area of contact, the clutch will transmit some torque. The only time clean disengagement will happen is when the plates have zero force connecting them together, and for that to happen, there has to be enough throw.

I'd like to have a perfectly flat plate stack. They might have been that way going in. A few months of use, some stop and go traffic, keeping the bike in gear at the lights, and the occasional launch off the line at the green and I don't really think there's much chance that the plates will stay flat. Steel warps when it gets hot. I already know that there isn't enough throw, with this setup. Provisionally I'd guess that around 2.5 to 3.0 mm of throw would be needed to sort out the issue.

This all brought me to the next question: what's the relationship between clutch master cylinder and slave? Which component would I have to change, to get this amount of throw, if simply bleeding the fluid won't do it?

The whole system is effectively just a lever. Motion at the grip is converted into motion at the clutch, high motion and low force becomes low motion, high force. The relation between the two is governed by volume moved at the master being the same as volume moved at the slave, so:

Piston Area x Travel (master cylinder) = Piston Area x Travel (slave)

Ducati clutches are notorious for heavy actions, hence the thriving aftermarket in light-effort clutch slave cylinders. It's not just the lighter clutch lever effort. For whatever reason, Ducati OEM clutch slave cylinders have been of low quality for a surprisingly long time. They're notorious for blowing seals at relatively short mileages. The latest generation might (finally) be OK in terms of durability, but if an owner wanted reliability as well as reduced lever effort, the aftermarket was the way to go.

The ST2 has one of these, fitted by a previous owner. From my reading, the OEM piston is 28 mm, most aftermarket clutch slaves are 30 mm, trading reduced effort against slightly reduced travel. I've got an Oberon slave on the 900SS and have had no issues with disengagement on that bike (the Oberon's supposed to be 29mm btw).

The ST2 shouldn't have this issue, then, given that the 900SS is running basically the same setup and hasn't had any issues with clutch drag. Unless the master cylinder is different, of course...

Apparently Ducati addressed the high-effort clutch situation in the 2000 model year, by reducing the clutch master cylinder piston diameter from 13mm to 12mm. The ST2 is a 2000 year bike. It helped, but people would still fit aftermarket clutch slaves, as has been done on this bike. Right. I've taken a master cylinder apart once before (curiosity got the better of me) and it's not entirely trivial to do, or to put back together again. So: is it possible to confirm that it's a PS12 quickly and easily?

I used the verniers to estimate travel at the master cylinder, approximately 12mm, give or take. I guessed that the aftermarket slave is 30mm diameter, then ran numbers via the volume in equals volume out relation for perfect travel of 1.85mm, to get 11.77 mm diameter for the master cylinder piston. If working backwards from a PS13, the travel on a 30mm slave comes in at 2.25 mm, which is a lot more like what I want.

It sounds like a lot of fuss and bother but I really want my clutches to last as long as possible. It's not difficult to drop over a grand on these if everything has to be replaced in one go. It'd also be really nice to have a gearbox that changes with a snick instead of a clank.

A couple of other things found out during this, as covered in the photos...

It's possible, with a worn clutch, to have the friction plates start binding on the hub. Once they get loose enough in the basket, they'll start riding on the outside of the hub splines. The poor-man's fix is to take some 240 grit paper and bevel the inside diameter of the plates, taking the edges off the friction material (these were razor sharp 90 degree edges on mine) and the steel underneath. Smooth travel, without binding the plate stack up, follows.

Anodised hubs work brilliantly at first but can have issues if the anodising flakes off with wear or impact - this can catch the steels. This happened on one of my hubs and I had issues with slipping under power and / or clutch drag during changes. The field fix was to shut the engine down and work the clutch, while rocking the bike back and forth with the bike still in gear, to allow plates to unstick and settle back to where they needed to be. Properly chamfering the steel's splines sorted the issue.

Anyway, I've been through much fun and games to find an answer for this particular problem on the ST2. Shorty levers offer a cheap solution - shorter lever means more angular swing, which means more master cylinder piston movement - but somehow I think they'd just not quite work on the ST2, both in terms of style and function. At this point the best answer (definitely not the cheapest) is to replace both the clutch master and slave, a PS13 master and an Oberon 29mm slave, in order to get enough travel. Just the clutch master would possibly be enough. It'll be a while, I'm still clearing a credit card, and the current plate set and basket want replacement soon too.

To my mind, it's false economy to not do it. The bike will simply keep on eating plate sets if I don't.

This will result in a slightly heavier clutch pull, as well. There's just no getting around this:

The clutch has to transmit full engine torque, this means a certain amount of spring force;
To disengage the clutch, the spring force has to be overcome;
To separate the plates cleanly, there has to be enough travel;
Travel trades off directly with clutch pull force.

Springs / force / travel. They're all interlinked. Any change in one affects one or both of the others.

Anything more requires improving the basic clutch design, which when it comes right down to it, is limited by the human hand. Higher coefficient of friction materials would mean lighter springs, for example. A flatter plate set would help. There are already things like ramp clutches available (these clamp tighter under drive load, loosen up under back load, and have non-linear release force) but they're pricey. Maybe at some point we'll see power assist clutches, similar to vacuum brake boosters on cars. There are quickshift blippers which already avoid the clutch issue completely, of course.

OddDuck

13th June 2018, 08:56

Right, enough theory. Being curious I took a couple of wet winter evenings and took the clutch slave cylinder apart, on the idea that maybe it had sludge inside and cleaning this out would help.

First things first: whoops, I'd made an assumption and now it's time for some humble pie. It's definitely an OEM Ducati slave, 28mm bore, nicely made in the pattern of an aftermarket cylinder but nothing fancy. The total lack of a conspicuous brand name should have tipped me off. It's quite different to the previous Ducati slaves I've seen. It wasn't sludged up, although a few specks of black stuff came out with the fluid.

Instead, I think I found a design flaw. The piston seal has a 1 x 1 mm groove in it, the seal itself runs in a 0.25 mm clearance fore and aft, and the piston-bore clearance is around 0.10 mm.

There's pressure across this from operation, of course, but that's in line with the piston. There isn't pressure from top to bottom for any air caught in the seal groove or length clearance, apart from boyancy. Anything caught behind the seal would have to get out past the piston skirt, that'd mean the bubble would have to break apart into micro-bubbles around 0.05 mm or so, and fluid surface tension would fight that. If the fluid surface tension is stronger than the boyancy, the air will never escape.

I ran the numbers for lost volume due to compression of air in this space and got a match on the travel I've been getting versus the travel that should be happening. Right. Time to open up the rear of the seal so that any air would escape naturally.

The piston came straight out with a few lever squeezes, it wasn't hard to remove. The orange stuff inside the bore is presumably what happens with old brake fluid.

OddDuck

13th June 2018, 18:05

The slave had been crushed inward a bit where the chain had run on the outside - this was relatively straightforward to open up again via Dremel and then fine paper. There isn't really much I can do about the scoring on the cylinder bore or the piston skirt aside from smoothing the worst of it down, but this hasn't happened in an area which the seal normally sweeps.

The modification to the piston itself was done with a Dremel and small diameter cylindrical grinding wheel. All I wanted to do was to open up a path to or from the back face of the seal and the seal groove. I wanted the path to be a minimum of 1 mm wide, to allow bubbles free passage out. I was very careful to not cut into the front face or inner diameter of the piston seal's groove since any damage will allow a leakage path.

There are a few other ways that the same thing could be done - lathe the back diameter down, then taper the back face of the groove, or use a drill press to put a ring of access holes in from the back - this isn't the only way to solve this problem. I was careful to take sharp edges off after grinding, I don't want to cut into that seal on reassembly.

Reassemble, refill, bleed the system, test the travel and presto, limited success. Travel has increased from 1.6 ish mm out to just under 2.0 mm, similar to my calculations but not quite matching. Possibly I still have air trapped in the system. A test ride will show if this has worked in terms of getting the clutch to release properly, or if it's time to spring for a PS13 master after all.

AllanB

13th June 2018, 20:16

The clutch slave appears to be a common bitch. Abused by chain crud they wear out.

The aftermarket has it covered and they tend to use larger pistons as well to reduce the clutch pull. Expensive little buggers though.

Reminds me must be time to pull the front sprocket cover and clean behind it.

OddDuck

2nd July 2018, 18:53

Cash being a bit tight at the moment, I did some reading and thought I'd give something else a try: clean up the steels. Apparently they can get glazed and a bit sticky after high mileage.

The photos show the setup: I simply used methylated spirits, wet'n'dry paper (600 grit) and a reasonably flat metal plate. Most of the steels were the thick 2mm type and didn't need a dedicated hold-flat tool, working by hand was enough. It was certainly possible to feel the dark stain on the surface come off with the change to bright steel underneath.

BTW everything I read about other people trying this said: use a non-oily working fluid for the cleaning / scouring / sanding. Brake cleaner, meths, electrical contact cleaner etc etc were all fine... just as long as it didn't leave an oily residue or cause the steels to start rusting. The sanding can be done with a Scotchbrite pad, an orbital sander, wet'n'dry and so on, it really doesn't seem to matter as long as it doesn't carve the steel itself up too much. Caution was needed if trying this on the frictions though, quite a few solvents will start dissolving the pads.

The photo of me holding one side of the disc down, and the visible lift on the other side, is a basic test for flatness. This one isn't flat, it was dished slightly. I didn't have enough of a set of spares to replace it, so have put it back in for now. This sort of thing won't help separation in the disc stack - any discs with a ripple or dish in them will act like springs. As the stack expands when the clutch is pulled in, they'll expand outwards and maintain contact with the friction plates. A similar flatness test is possible with the frictions as well, provided that the tangs haven't mushroomed too far.

I've taken the bike for a couple of quick about town rides to try this out and see how well it's worked. The short answer is: it helps. It hasn't completely fixed the clutch disengagement issue, but it has helped.

As to why it helps... based on my reading, and what I've seen while working with the discs, it looks like the steels end up getting a very thin coating applied from the friction pad material. If the coating then sticks or bonds back onto the friction pad material, it follows that the clutch wouldn't disengage properly. It couldn't, not if the discs were gummed together.

Why would the coating on the steels get sticky? I think that somehow it got old. Oxygen? Maybe. Heat, and subsequent chemical changes? Possible. Best guess, and it is a guess, is that the coating became impregnated with oil. Well. Not sure.

About all I can say is that it looks like the steels benefit from being cleaned up every once in a while. Normally they'd get replaced with a clutch pack change, but having gone to the effort of properly chamfering the splines I'd quite like to keep them going as long as possible.

pete376403

2nd July 2018, 19:24

OddDuck

2nd July 2018, 21:33

something to be said for a wet (oiled) clutch. The oil will help to move the crud away from the places, prevent corrosion, make things a little easier where the steel places bear on the hub, keep the noise level down, add a tiny measure of shock damping on engagement. So what's so great about a dry clutch again? Racer rep? Anything else?

Fair comment. Two things:

1) they're relatively easy to get into and service, and
2) you don't get friction material through the engine oil and thus the bearings and gears.

oh and 3) apparently playing hot potato with a wet clutch plate set trackside is not fun.

I'm going to thrown in my own as well..
4) it's possible to get full disengagement on a dry clutch in a way that isn't possible on a wet clutch, there's just too much fluid drag between the plates for any practical clutch rod throw. At least based on borrowing my mate's RF900R, which always goes into first with a hell of a clunk despite clearly having sufficient movement in the pressure plate.

But yes there certainly seems to be a lot of dry clutch fetish going on among Ducatisti, personally I think the whole open clutch cover, spend gazillions on clutch bling thing is a bit silly.

AllanB

3rd July 2018, 11:14

But yes there certainly seems to be a lot of dry clutch fetish going on among Ducatisti

Many even claim they like the sound of a dry clutch. I suspect they may be lying though.

Given current noise standards you'll never see one on a production road bike again.

Voltaire

3rd July 2018, 14:42

Many even claim they like the sound of a dry clutch. I suspect they may be lying though.

Given current noise standards you'll never see one on a production road bike again.

My Airhead BMW's have dry clutches, and so does the Norton Commando. They don't sound like a roasting pan of nuts being shaken up and down.:laugh:

Had a 600SS for a while, great bike for twisty roads and it had a wet clutch, you could actually hear the engine.

noelh

8th July 2018, 07:51

Voltaire

8th July 2018, 16:30

Hi Guys
I just brought an ST2 2003, done 600km so far, love it but it looks like it needs a few jobs doing to it, the exhaust stud nuts are almost non existing and the tank has a fair bit of rust in it
Thanks for a great forum and i look forward to being a part of it
Noel

I had an SS with rust.
Ducati tanks have a tendency to hold water at rear by seat.
Take out the filler ring ( probably need a new seal and small allen head screws)
Removed pump and filter ( buy new filter)
Get a POR 15 metal ready kit and follow instructions ( careful of paint.)
Then POR 15 tank seal.
Note: check that the vent is not kinked as it it blocks the pump keeps on sucking.

BMWST?

8th July 2018, 18:14

OddDuck

8th July 2018, 19:50

Hi Guys
I just brought an ST2 2003, done 600km so far, love it but it looks like it needs a few jobs doing to it, the exhaust stud nuts are almost non existing and the tank has a fair bit of rust in it
Thanks for a great forum and i look forward to being a part of it
Noel

Hi Noel! Can't speak to the tank rust (listen to Voltaire), I can comment on exhaust studs nuts though... go OEM Ducati, they use a weird high copper alloy which seems to work a treat. What are the other issues?

OddDuck

8th July 2018, 20:06

i think the residue of friction material itself is the cause.creates the drag between steels and friiction.Just tlike if you have very hot brake discs you can get pad material depositied on the disc if you stop with the brakes still hard on....next thing you have a "lump" on the disc

Yep it's certainly improved since I cleaned the steels up. However I think both more lift and a new clutch pack would help... the discs aren't perfectly flat and this may mean proper disengagement (no contact) may not be possible.

I agree with your comment about discs, I'd certainly try doing a few hot / hard stops before regrinding or replacing a disc if there's a lump appeared.

noelh

10th July 2018, 18:46

OddDuck

11th July 2018, 08:22

Well I thought the clutch was a bit noisey, so i popped the cover off on the weekend, it has about 3mm clearance between the steel discs and the clutch cage, that probably explains the rattle, not sure if that means i should put a clutch kit in or not?

Also has an odd whistle at about 4K revs, my first guess is the belts are too tight but I am open to other opinions and that, I have some belts on order as i was going to change them anyway.

3mm - the clutch friction plate tangs are stuffed. The clutch will still work for quite some time though, just depends how much noise you're prepared to put up with. If the basket or hub have picked up notching then you might have clutch issues on changing the pack over.

The whistle might be from an overfilled sump. I had something similar on mine and was exploring all sorts of possibilities, noticed that the oil level was a bit high in the sight glass, did an oil change and refilled to the correct halfway point... the whistle / bubbling noise disappeared. I hadn't changed anything else. No damage appeared to have been done. I suspect overfilling means that the crankcase breather valve gets too wet with oil and turns into a bubbler, but can't be sure on this.

If you haven't checked the airbox filter yet I suggest having a look - the forward-facing snorkels and nose fairing slipstream feeds have a habit of feeding insects straight into the airbox.

noelh

11th July 2018, 19:52

Hi thanks for the advice
I brought a clutch kit today (Ducatispares.co.nz) quite a reasonable price $249, will see how the basket and inner look once i strip it.

As far as the whistle goes, will advise once i track it down, it seems pretty consistent, there at 4000rpm but not at any other revs.

noelh

15th July 2018, 07:52

OddDuck

15th July 2018, 09:47

Tyres recently changed, from T30's to the new T31's. I'd failed the WOF on tread depth on the rear and the front had dished flanks, affecting the handling. The T30's had lasted approximately 9,000 kms. I took the new tyres out for a blat yesterday and so far so good - no issues with grip or squirm, nice neutral handling. Feedback is minimal but I imagine that's deliberate, minimising vibration would be part of a touring tyre design.

Noelh - when I bought my 900 Supersport, the previous owner had de-baffled the exhausts. Glorious Ducati sounds. Horrible flat spot right in the middle of the RPM range, exactly where power peak was supposed to be. Granted it's a carburetted, non ECU bike, but still... mufflers affect how engines breathe. Probably you'll be OK either modifying the mufflers or going aftermarket but I would budget for a dyno run and re-tune session to get the best out of the bike.

AllanB

15th July 2018, 11:32

The other thing I am noticing is the exhaust is a bit too quiet, I will have to figure out how to open up the mufflers a bit or buy some after market ones, there are a lot of articles on the web about removing part of the inner pipe, has anyone here ever done it?
My main concern would be upsetting the fuel injection mixture but most of the ones I have read seem to have got away with it,
I don't want it too loud, just a bit louder so i can hear the engine when running without being overly loud to.others when passing.

Probably more than you want to pay (?) but surprisingly cheap for new slip-ons in NZ.

Search Trademe auction 1694214016

Or order a pair of universal mufflers off Ebay and adapt to fit. You can get something like this for NZ$50-75 including shipping. At that price if you don't like them you'll probably make money selling them on TM. Search for something like Universal motorcycle muffler.

noelh

15th July 2018, 19:29

cool thanks for that, at that sort of money worth a go.
Was worried if i cut up my stock ones and end up with a big flat spot right where you don't want it then i wont be very happy.....

My 900ss has a set of meads speed mufflers and it sounds and goes awesome, but i get the impression someone got that seriously tuned for the mufflers and the K&N etc

Totally different, I dont have my wife sitting on the back of the 900SS

noelh

25th August 2018, 11:05

Well it worked out fine, I got a second hand set of st4 mufflers that fitted on just perfectly, cored them and they sound just perfect, not too loud ( I didn't open the inner pipe, just cut 3" off the back) and the torque and power went up a little right through the range, very pleased and not too hard to do, thanks to ducatisuite for the how to

OddDuck

22nd September 2018, 21:08

Changing out a bent clip-on.

Pretty basic stuff - source acceptable part from wrecker and sub it in, $55 vs about $360 for the brand new OEM item. They're an unusual design which bolts down onto the triple tree top plate so not exactly compatible with generic replacements. There's little in the aftermarket that'd work, although it might be possible to use a fork clamp and a riser.

About the only technical note I'll throw in here is the use of a stainless steel workshop ruler as a straight edge - an old trick is to put the ruler edge onto whatever you want to check for straightness, then hold the pair up to the light. Any slight gap will become obvious.

The old bar is bent, badly. It's about 7-ish degrees off straight, by eye. That doesn't sound like much but it's left me feeling like I'm riding curled up or twisted somehow; it's been spoiling my enjoyment of the bike. The new bar isn't perfectly straight but it's a lot better than what it replaces, and after all this time I'd be surprised if the left bar was ruler-straight either.

I've been out on the bike a few times since this job and the bike does feel a lot better. Surprising how the little things can add up.

OddDuck

22nd September 2018, 21:13

Another very basic, very small job: changing out a chewed up, worn out set of footpeg rubbers.

I'd thought it'd take ten minutes. An hour and a half later I was good to go again... it turns out that time sets philips head screws in pretty well and I had to break out the impact driver, then get a footpeg into the vice so that I could use it. There weren't any issues once I'd done that. The impact driver itself gets used once in a blue moon but it's very handy to have one when it's needed.

OddDuck

15th November 2018, 21:05

Just did the 40K service - no photos sorry, posting for other owners contemplating doing their own work.

The list:

Engine oil and filter
Air intake filter
Fuel filter and fuel pump flange O-ring
Valve clearances
Coolant change
Fork oil
Cam belts change (I'd changed them at 30K so just checked condition and tension)
Clutch and brake fluid
Grease control cables
Balance throttle bodies - have left this for now but do need to attend to a fast idle
Change spark plugs
The usual suspects of chain tension, wheel, head and swingarm bearings checking, battery condition and electrolyte level, etc

All fairly straightforward but there are a couple of things I wish I'd known before.

Forks: you need a couple of specific tools to change the fork oil. They're both pricey and specific but the job apparently goes much smoother if these tools are present (no, haven't done it yet). There isn't a drain bolt so the forks have to come out of the bike completely for this.

Fuel filter: at 20 years and 40,000 kilometers, it's getting onto time to change the fuel and drain hoses inside the tank as well as the filter. I'll keep going with the current hoses for now but will get Ducati OEM hoses for the next filter change. There have been some posts on FB recently about fuel hoses swelling if immersed, only Dayco hose seemed to hold up properly over time. There are classes of fuel hose and codes. I don't understand these fully yet so won't report further for now.

I'd also changed the clutch master cylinder for a PS13 Brembo. It's alright, not great, but seems to have solved most of the clutch disengagement issues.

OddDuck

27th December 2018, 09:20

Sorting an issue with the bike idling a bit fast. I was concerned about this due to the damage being inflicted on the clutch and gearbox: it went into first with a bang every time, particularly when everything's hot. Keeping the RPM down keeps the shock loads down.

The first problem was a sticking throttle cable preventing the throttle butterflies from reaching their stop screw. It looked like the throttles closed, it felt like the throttles closed, but they weren't quite getting there.

The quick test is to listen. With the engine off, get down beside the throttles and see if you can hear the snick when they close. If it's quiet then they're hanging up. The other test, once fairings are off, is to disconnect the throttle cable and operate the throttles directly via the cable pull wheel. This will check if it's the cable or if there's a gunk jam in the throttle shafts or return springs.

Ducati have used a single throttle cable on this bike (I imagine this is common across most of the injected bikes). There's no pull return cable, so it's vulnerable to 20-year lubricant turning into tar and thus sticking. The return stop screw is right in the middle of the assembly, underneath the airbox, and is basically impossible to see under normal circumstances. There was rust on the tab where the screw would normally contact and leave shiny metal. That was the only visual sign of what was going on. The feeler gauge in the photo was a quick test to see whether the gap had closed or not.

This is the first time I've been working on injectors so for me it was something of a learning curve. Brad Black covers the system very well on this page:

http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html

I read the page as well as the Ducati workshop manuals, considered my total lack of the various esoteric tools needed, and had a think. Underneath the bewildering detail is a reasonably simple procedure:

1) get stuff out of the way so you have access to the throttle bodies
2) close the LH butterfly fully in its housing (i.e. it should be sticking / jamming in the throttle body)
3) set the TPS position to a zero (throttle closed) datum
4) wind the throttle stop screw in until the LH butterfly is opened to a specified angle, as shown by TPS output voltage
5) balance the RH throttle against the LH throttle
6) set idle speed via the air bleed screws
7) adjust mixture trimpot (on the ECU) to give the desired CO % at idle.

I've given this a (very) rough go.

It's possible to read the TPS output signal by tapping into its 3 pin connector and reading mV signal (bike ignition on) with a multimeter. The tap in is done by using dressmaker's pins, twisting a bit of wire onto the head, and carefully sliding these into the rear of the connector, past the weather sealing, so that the point of the pin rests against the crimp of the connector. As Brad Black says, the two outside pins of the TPS connector are the connection points, avoid the one in the middle. Datum (throttle fully closed) signal has to be 150 mV, and this has to be read continually while the TPS is very carefully positioned. It's fiddly and it tends to change as the fasteners are tightened. It's also very important to avoid a short, so care with the leads is necessary.

My vacuum gauges wouldn't couple in to the inlet manifolds (frame tube / radiator hose) in the way, so I've balanced the throttle plates against each other at full closed position mechanically, by watching the TPS for increase while repeatedly opening and closing the throttles after adjusting the balance screw. The point where the TPS starts to indicate an increase is the point where the RH throttle closing takes over from the LH throttle. It's rough and I don't yet know how well this works. It is possible to get at the balance screw without removing the airbox, so if I can obtain a suitable vacuum adaptor later I'll be able to do this as per normal procedure.

The LH throttle stop screw is the stop for the pair of throttle bodies, since that's the one with the TPS. I think it's daft - the screw is completely inaccessible under the airbox, while the RH stop screw is beside the cables on the outboard RH side of the bike and can be got at - but that's what the procedures say, so that's what I've done. This was wound in until I got 404 mV signal. That's the Euro setting, there are several:

Euro: 404 mV
USA: 460 mV
Swiss: 505 ? mV
OEM Manual: 560 mV

This caused some doubt until I realised that with the 150 mV datum set, all this changes is the idle angle setting of the throttle plates. That's the base idle speed setting, effectively. The air bleed screws change the idle mixture and thus also the idle speed, but this closed throttle angle has to be set first. I'm trying to sort out an over fast idle so went with the most closed throttle, ie the Euro setting, 404 mV / 2.4 degrees.

This done, the airbox was refitted and I set the air bleed screws to 1 turn out, then tried running the bike, idling until it reached operating temperature. I pulled a spark plug, found the nose to be a very light tan colour, and decided that I'd got as close as I was likely to. I'm not keen to breach the seal on the ECU if I can avoid it. If there's a discharge or short circuit, or I damage the trimpot, that's it, new ECU. I think it should be possible to set idle speed and mixture by iterating between the throttle stop position and the air bleed screws, without touching the ECU, but this would depend on the ECU trimpot being set correctly to start with.

Care has to be taken with the throttle adjustment screws. The original yellow Ducati marking paint / loctite is good stuff and does not allow free motion. It's easy to stuff screw heads up. From the looks of things, this is the first time that the throttle bodies have ever been touched since leaving the factory; it's been 40,000 km's and they're supposed to be adjusted every 10,000. It's a fiddly and involved procedure, the bike still ran pretty well, so I can understand why it's been skipped... but throttle plates do wear under airflow. TPS sensors wear with throttle motion and oxidise etc as well. There's a reason for the service interval.

The final note I'll put here was difficulty removing and refitting the airbox. The manual didn't go into detail about this, it seems that this is supposed to pretty well pop straight off and push straight back on. Not for me... I ended up removing the ignition switch / tank latch assembly and having to take the vertical cylinder connector rubber off and out completely (through the airbox) before I could get the airbox off.

Refitting the airbox was difficult, putting it mildly. I had to take a couple of hours and several goes before I worked out a method - either it wouldn't go into the frame, or the rubber wouldn't go on. Very frustrating. For anyone else needing to do this:

1) lightly sand the edges of the hole for the LH rubber connector on the airbox, as manufactured there are some sharp edges
2) grease the airbox hole edges and the lip of the rubber connector flange (not essential but it helps)
3) fit the LH rubber connector to the vertical cylinder injector body
4) drop the airbox in, fit the RH rubber connector (left attached to the box) to its throttle body, get the LH connector flange centered and square where it presses against the outside of the airbox
5) check rotation of the LH rubber connector. The flange and airbox are marked with a position indicator. Pull airbox off again and rotate connector as necessary. You'll be able to feel when the indicators line up.
6) the frustrating bit... refit airbox, pop RH connector onto throttle, square up LH connector again, then with fingers and a large, flat-blade screwdriver, guide the connector flange into the airbox hole. Work around the perimeter and engage the entire circumference, advancing in small stages. The connector flange will look tapered or conical inside the airbox while this is being done. The trick here is to prevent the flange from buckling. It'll pop into place eventually.
7) tighten hose clamps, refit the 3 bolts, the oil breather hose, air filter and lid etc.

Right, time to see how it all worked out. I really hope it did, it's been two full days work to sort something that on a carburetted bike is as simple as turning a screw.

noelh

3rd January 2019, 19:16

Thanks for the post very interesting
I just spent 3 days on our ST2, fitted a second hand ohlins rear shock, so while doing so decided to pull the swing arm and grease the bearings / suspension rocker bearings, then pulled the front forks and put in 460mls 5 weight fork oil, greased the steering head bearings and decided to change the cam belts, upper aduster had 2 shot bearings (6201), interestingly my throttle cable housing adjuster end is also very rusty where it connects to the TPI so i will keep an eye that.
Also spent a few hours with a fibreglass kit glassing up an unknown crack in my LH fairing.
3 days later all good.
Noel

OddDuck

12th January 2019, 06:51

Well, I turned out to be wrong about balancing the throttles mechanically... it really does need vacuum. The mechanical attempt ended up a full turn away from the balance point and wasn't really dialled in.

My vacuum gauges wouldn't fit with the engine in frame - there was a cross member blocking access to one of the screw in taps. I found and ordered a cute little 90 degree vacuum banjo elbow from RadioSpares, stock no. 851-4273. This really wants a particular hose size to work properly, ID 4mm, OD 6 mm. I managed with existing hoses and cable ties instead of the proper screw-on hose retainer.

Anyway, got there, ended up about 1/8th of a turn away from the original setting. Really there wasn't any practical difference at adjustments this fine and simply returning to the as-factory setting would have been as good. Note that I balanced with airbox, filter etc in place, the final photo was taken after pulling the airbox again so that I could loctite the balance screw. I really don't want this moving once the bike's back on the road.

However the bike is still running rough, idling high (again) and bucking, particularly on start up. I'm having one cylinder drop out occasionally. I suspect gunked up fuel injectors, so cleaning these up somehow is the next job.

OddDuck

27th January 2019, 19:26

Changing some worn sprocket carrier bearings.

Ducati use a semi-floating sprocket design - there are five shock absorbing rubber cushings pressed into the rear wheel. The sprocket carrier uses five fingers to lock into the wheel and effectively floats on the rear axle via two central bearings.

I'd noticed quite a bit of flop play on the carrier, and lately it had started making an odd clicking sound, particularly when the bike was being pushed backwards. It seemed to be the carrier moving on its five fingers, since the clicking sound seemed to correspond to one fifth of a wheel rotation. If allowed to continue, it'll cause wear and damage to the five cushings and fingers. Bearings (these ones anyway) are cheap and easy to get, the sprocket fingers and cushing aren't.

The OEM bearings are standard SKF parts: 6006-2RS1/C3, with 2 used in the carrier. They're pressed into the hub face to face, with a circlip retaining them. It's a very simple, straightforward bearing change job: pull old bearings (or flip over and drive out from center), then drive new bearings home, replace circlip, job done. Basic gear is a bearing puller with a slide hammer, a bearing driver plate set, and a hammer. A press is nice but not essential. The bearing OD is 55 mm, an ideal driving installation plate would be around 54 mm OD.

For anyone doing their first bearing change and reading this: bearings are almost always mounted on the outer race. Getting them out means pulling or driving on the inner race, since the bearing is usually mounted in a cup of some sort. Typically there isn't access to the back of the outer race, so you have to pull from the center, not the outside. That means transmitting shock loads through the raceways and rolling elements while getting them out, in short, once they're out, they've been hammered. If they weren't stuffed before then they are now. You can't re-use them.

When fitting new bearings, you have to drive the outer race only, to avoid putting brutal impacts through raceways etc. That can be difficult: there's only about 2mm of wall thickness to drive on, so you need driver plates of the right diameter. My set didn't have them and I don't have a lathe at home to turn up the right size. In the end I used the old, stuffed bearings as intermediate drivers, with an oversized plate on top, and pulled the old bearings out again with the slide hammer and collet puller once I was done.

The photos show that the outer bearing has been spinning freely in the carrier, when it's supposed to be a light interference push fit. I'm not sure how this happened. I've used Loctite bearing mount to secure the new bearing.

The picture of the carrier sitting in a stainless steel bowl, on a concrete garden path, might need some explanation: I was trying to warm the carrier up pre bearing installation, by solar collection. All the gear that's needed is a cheap old stainless steel kitchen bowl and a hot sunny day. Leave your greasy, stinky item in the bowl, the bowl out in the sun, after an hour or so it will have warmed up. This did actually work, sort of. It got quite warm instead of hot. I had a bowl that was too small and a windy day. Ideally the sprocket carrier would have got too hot to touch and then the new bearings would have just dropped in, didn't quite happen and I had to drive them in, but warming it up did help.

Reinstalling the rear axle is worth mentioning: it's much easier going in from the chain side. The brake caliper carrier is a very close slide fit on the axle and it tends to cause things to jam if you try to refit the axle from the brake side.

OddDuck

2nd March 2019, 07:29

I'd pulled the injectors and sent them to this outfit:

http://www.injectortech.co.nz/

On return, the injectors, fuel lines, airbox etc were refitted and the bike fired up first time. I've had it out and about for the last couple of days and so far it's riding very nicely.

I've held off the final step in Brad Black's tuning procedure - getting into the ECU and adjusting the trimpot - for now, since mixture seems OK if on the lean side. That's stock, apparently the normal tuning map is lean across the board and either a Ducati Performance chip or a re-flash is required if it is to be changed. It might be worth doing if I decide to upgrade the mufflers etc at some point.

The near miss is worth mentioning more for a safety detail than for the miss itself - a large American pickup truck completely failed to give way to me at a roundabout and pulled out in front of me. The woman in the right side seat saw me; the driver didn't.

I went back and had a (perfectly friendly) chat with the bloke. If there'd been a collision it would have been a classic SMIDSY with an equally classic Failure To Give Way charge. It was a left hand drive truck. I'd been completely hidden from the driver by his passenger. He hadn't bothered leaning forward to get a clear view of the road. He certainly hadn't heard the bike, despite having windows in the truck open.

LH drive vehicles are a reality through Lower Hutt, particularly on sunny Sundays. I had a think about the near miss and really there are only a couple of things the biker can do:

- make the visual target wider by fitting outrigger auxiliary headlights or similar

- change lane position so there's line of sight to everyone up-front in the vehicle

Loud pipes might - might - have helped. Otherwise the biker is reliant on the driver. This guy was pretty casual though.

SVboy

2nd March 2019, 16:32

Worthy reminder. How much for the injector service?

AllanB

2nd March 2019, 18:22

Injectors are interesting - I run a cleaner in the fuel for the cars before a oil/filter change. To be fair I have no idea if it works.

I've never done a bike.

I cleaned out the throttle body of the XR6 last weekend as it was not starting to it's usual standard. Fixed for a $15 can of spray and fifteen minutes of my time. Runs sweet.

Never did that to a bike.

Are we missing something here?

OddDuck

2nd March 2019, 19:08

Injector cleaning: approx $40 per injector. The procedure is that the injector is checked electrically (coil winding resistance and insulation resistance to body), then it's hooked up to a pressure rig running the appropriate solvents / cleaners and pulsed with flow forward and back. Ultrasonic cleaning is done as well. They replace the fine mesh filter at the inlet of the injector and the O-rings too. There's a few places doing this sort of service. The idea is to totally remove all the gunk and tar that builds up over the years. The injectors can end up not flowing enough fuel, or failing to seal properly and dribbling constantly.

Injector cleaning products that are added to a fuel tank... I tried some of the cheaper stuff but not much joy, not once the bike started running rough anyway. Apparently Caltex's Techron additive works, and you can buy that in a bottle, but it's DIY import stuff. Nobody seems to carry it inside NZ.

Throttle body cleaning is worthwhile too - air bleed passages can gunk up - but it's a separate thing to sorting the injectors themselves. I did have a good look at the throttle bodies for the ST2 while the injectors were away, the throttles were still in good shape.

OddDuck

21st April 2019, 15:28

Changing out the stuffed OEM crankcase breather - this had started breathing oil all over the rear of the engine and possibly was also making a buzzing noise. Unfortunately Ducati are well known for the stock plastic bodied breathers failing over time. Heat plus oil gets them. Either the aluminium creeps, or the plastic shrinks, anyway they don't last forever.

The first step was to get the old one off. I tried a few things, which didn't work...

Trying to get a C spanner into place - frustrating. Looks like it's just possible to get a clean shot at applying torque, no, after roughly two hours of trying I'd say it isn't possible. But it looks like it could happen... just... Honestly you'd have to pull the engine and pull the cylinder to do it this way.

Trying a home-made band wrench on the breather's outer aluminium ring. Nope. The ring just spins on the plastic inside.

Trying vise grips on the top plastic fitting at the neck. Nope, same again - plastic top and aluminium ring spin, but the plastic base doesn't release.

The most frustrating bit about the whole thing is that if you could just somehow get a spot of torque onto the damn base, it'd come straight off. Yes, I thought of the thing with using a punch at an angle on one of the C-spanner holes. The risk with that approach is shattering the base and then having bits drop into the engine.

This thing really wasn't Ducati's finest moment in terms of service design. Finally I had a go at just ripping it apart while still on the bike, to strip it down to just the base piece so that a C-spanner could be fitted... it turns out that the aluminium used is as soft a grade as possible. I was able to cut it with sidecutters and tear it with pliers / screwdriver. While doing this, enough torque was applied that it did finally unscrew.

It helps greatly during this work to get clear access. The rear brake reservoir pretty well pops under the frame and out of the way without any more fuss than undoing the mounting screw and cutting one cable tie.

OddDuck

21st April 2019, 15:41

A quick look at the crankcase breather itself, just for curiosity's sake.

The new Ducabike breather turned out to feature the exact same insert as the stock breather. Same sub-contractor brand, same reeds, everything. There's no performance advantage to using this, if there's all that much in a breather valve anyway. I know that deliberately evacuating a crankcase does yield performance improvements, but the best way to do that is usually a dedicated pump of some kind. Maybe it's worth setting that up on a race bike but on a tourer simplicity and reliability win, if more power is needed then generally the rider is better off with more valves or more cubes or both.

One major factor in favor of the Ducabike breather is that someone had the brains to put a 14mm hex socket into the outlet pipe. Brilliant. Why aren't they all like this, honestly it's even better than the Nichols breather I've got on the 900SS.

The OEM breather had originally been sealed with what looks like silicone. There was still a lot of it on the crankcase threads. The stuff inside the breather itself had come apart and possibly caught on a reed. Overall condition was surprisingly good, considering it was 18 y.o. plastic and drenched in burnt engine oil. I've thrown the casings away but kept the reed assembly, possibly it's useful as a spare.

layton

22nd April 2019, 09:11

I used a small carby pod filter on the Duke I had, lasted years and looked the park.

AllanB

22nd April 2019, 19:19

Just did the 40K service - no photos sorry, posting for other owners contemplating doing their own work.

Forks: you need a couple of specific tools to change the fork oil. They're both pricey and specific but the job apparently goes much smoother if these tools are present (no, haven't done it yet). There isn't a drain bolt so the forks have to come out of the bike completely for this.

So you are at least in you early - late fifties (mid here) if you remember the simple task of a fork drain bolt when changeling oil. It always reminded me of milking a cows teat. I'm sure they were deleted in the 90's. Shame as it avoided fork removal from the bike.

OddDuck

22nd April 2019, 21:43

So you are at least in you early - late fifties (mid here) if you remember the simple task of a fork drain bolt when changeling oil. It always reminded me of milking a cows teat. I'm sure they were deleted in the 90's. Shame as it avoided fork removal from the bike.

Ah, guess what I was doing today? I had fork drain bolts on the GB400. I miss them. So easy!!

Yeah today was pull the forks off, take the tops off and change the oil. The old stuff had gone pretty black but didn't smell nasty. It turned out that the springs aren't stock. Ducati specify a maximum length of 270mm - these were non-progressives which must have been 350+ mm in length. So I'd guess that someone's been in at some point and done a budget fork mod. Not sure about this... however I've been riding on it pretty happily so I'll carry on for now.

Useful notes: most of it's what you'd expect, jack the bike up on stands front and rear, take fairings off, pull forks. The fork yokes can be used in lieu of a vise if you need to unscrew stuff. The specific tool plus plate was very definitely necessary, this job isn't possible without it, but you really want a second set of hands present. Otherwise you're trying to do fiddly stuff while everything is covered in oil and you're having to push down hard. I did have to make up a little pull tool to get the 3-legged push disk out of the fork tops, not a big deal to do this with some shim, tinsnips and pliers.

While I was in, I checked the large connector on the LH front of the bike. Apparently this can pick up water and then green rot inside, causing much fun and games with the bike then running rough. This connector links the ECU and the absolute pressure sensor plus a few other things. Anyway it turned out to be aged but dry and OK, a quick spray of some CRC 2.26 and done.

I also changed out the front temperature sensor. I'd done the rear sensor earlier - the rear talks to the ECU, the front talks to the display on the dash, which has been fairly intermittent and strange numbers lately. Neither was hard to change. Work with bike completely cold, unscrew old sensor, hold finger over open port, whip new sensor in and screw tight. A rag to catch the tiny coolant loss and done, the cooling system doesn't have to be drained unless you want to be absolutely sure about cleaning the port up. The tricky bit is the spring clip retained electrical connector. These turn up in automotive / bike applications quite a bit. I had a lot of trouble getting this to unclip until I worked out the trick: don't try to open the spring, just rotate it, by just over 45 degrees. This can be done with a couple of small flat-blade screwdrivers. Then the connector pulls straight off.

OddDuck

29th April 2019, 20:02

As per the title - was just about to park up in town, noticing that the bike really was running hot, when the radiator cap vented. That means a sudden pop, with lots of steam and some coolant splashing around. At the time I put it down to riding for a long time at 50-ish k's with a following wind; there hadn't been much air movement past the bike, i.e. not much air through the radiator.

On the way home it very quickly became obvious that something was wrong. The bike's temperature gauge would simply keep going up. Normally the ST2 tootles around on highways at 65-ish C, around town at 100-ish with the radiator fan coming on a lot but holding at this temperature. Not this time. After several short runs I tried longer riding times to see if temperatures would stabilise at 110 or so. Nope. Still getting hotter and hotter. On hearing boiling in a cylinder head I decided that the only smart way to get the bike home was to ride until the gauge indicated 100, then pull over, shut down, and wait for the bike to cool via the breeze. There'd be a short time when I could run.

I'd just replaced the front temperature sensor, the one which talks to the dashboard. Maybe it was reading high... but the radiator cap had never blown like that before, and anyway the reading wasn't constant. It should have started coming down as soon as the bike got some half decent speed, if things were functioning normally.

It's 22 k's back from town; ride, stop and cool meant covering maybe 2 kms and then waiting twenty minutes. Getting home took nearly four hours. I ended up being very glad I hadn't gone over the hill for the day. Somewhere along the way I finally had the idea of putting a hand onto the radiator and found that it was very nearly at ambient, despite the engine hoses getting seriously hot.

Hot engine, cold radiator. Coolant wasn't flowing through the cooling array. Almost certainly a failed thermostat, so that was the first thing that came off the bike once I got home, calmed down, and got the fairings off.

Apologies for the basics if you already know them... The thermostat works as a switch, controlling coolant flow. When cold and closed, coolant flows in a tight loop around the cylinder heads and barrels, through the impellor pump, then straight back to the engine. Once the thermostat opens, it closes that engine-only path off, while opening a second path that includes the radiator. It's called a bypass thermostat, effectively closing one valve while opening another. The idea is to provide a fast warmup to a stable operating temperature, since the engine will work best when warm.

The photos show the thermostat on the bench. The short, wide, straight neck to the left is the inlet from the radiator. The crooked neck at the rear right is the inlet from the engine. The side outlet is the feed outward from the thermostat to the impellor.

Thermostat operation here is straightforward: the thermostat moves to the right on warmup, pushing against its mounting spring on the forked plate, and closing the spring-cushioned disc valve against the seat in the valve housing. While doing this, the brass neck of the thermostat is moved outward from the inlet at left, opening up the radiator circuit. The bit that does the pushing is the bright steel pin; it's propelled by a wax motor. The wax provides the pushing motion by expanding dramatically as it melts after reaching a particular temperature. It's about as simple a device as possible. It's possible to open the housing up by carefully filing the swaged-on clamp open and then levering the inlet out of the housing, using a strong knife blade.

Failure wasn't due to the thermostat. The housing failed. The bright pin had been pushed right through the plastic on the inlet side, cracking it wide open and effectively giving the thermostat nothing to push against. A metal housing would not have failed in this manner.

In theory it's possible to machine up a non-plastic replacement for the inlet, whip down to Super Cheap Auto or similar to find a matching thermostat, and make up some kind of clamp to hold the whole thing together again... but I'd really rather not have to fiddle with this on tour. It's just too likely to leak. I also couldn't be sure about the opening temperature of the thermostat. This isn't mentioned in the owner's or workshop manuals. The only way to be sure was to purchase a brand new replacement and directly check this with a stove, a pot, and a thermometer. Since I'm buying a new one anyway, well, why not use it? The original, plastic and all, actually did work for 45,000 km's and 18 years. So parts are on order and the bike's parked up while I wait.

neels

29th April 2019, 21:43

The original, plastic and all, actually did work for 45,000 km's and 18 years. So parts are on order and the bike's parked up while I wait.
Interesting, almost tempted to replace mine on suspicion.

From past experience owning eurojunk it seems that around 20 years is the life span for plastic bits associated with the cooling system, and once the first bit has let go the rest are probably not far away.

The joy of keeping things going long past their intended life span.

Voltaire

30th April 2019, 08:08

Interesting, almost tempted to replace mine on suspicion.

From past experience owning eurojunk it seems that around 20 years is the life span for plastic bits associated with the cooling system, and once the first bit has let go the rest are probably not far away.

The joy of keeping things going long past their intended life span.

Ain't that the truth. I have a 2001 VW Transporter and although the running gear and body are ok the other stuff like central locking, plastic bits and so on are problematic, but as you say past its best by date.

Other than taking off the 39mm Flatlslides refitting stock carbs and a cracked swingarm my 93 SL has been fine ( touch plastic wood), saying that I only ride it occasionally for the noise fix.

sidecar bob

30th April 2019, 09:17

Sounds like your guys euro junk is a bit too new.
Mine was made before the discovery of plastic as a temporary coolant vessel. well one was .

neels

30th April 2019, 09:50

Sounds like your guys euro junk is a bit too new.
Mine was made before the discovery of plastic as a temporary coolant vessel. well one was .
Seemed to start late 80's, plastic cooling system parts with o-rings instead of gaskets. The latest arrival in the driveway has plastic valve cover, inlet manifold, oil filter housing......but it's only 15 years old so should be good for a while yet, now that it has a new fuel pump after the plastic vanes fell off the impeller on the old one.

noelh

6th May 2019, 20:32

Well thats quite an interesting one, the thermostat, i will be very interested in the opening temperature if you happen to test the new (or old) one in hot water, also let us know where you get the new housing from and how much, looks like i will be replacing mine to, pity i just changed the radiator antifreeze as i had to remove the radiator to adjust the valve clearance on the front cyinder (used 50/50 Motul Inugel). Might hold off until my next valve adjustment, given the current level of kms i am doing that will come up fast enough.

I had an issue about a month ago, trip to cape reinga, bike started missing at higher revs, got worse as the trip went on and figured out going up the cape that it was related to fuel level in the tank, full tank a lot better, more empty the tank the worse the issue. Managed to get home ok to Whakatane but was running like a dog, 5000 rpm rev limit....

Pondered a few things but seemed like fuel and the fuel filter was one of the few jobs i hadn't done yet so off came the tank, upside down and fuel pump carrier out.

The fuel filter was blocked solid with rust, that explains the miss but on further investigation someone in the past must have had a blocked strainer (note strainer, not filter, the strainer is the gauze before the fuel pump, the fuel filter is after the fuel pump).
Any way this person (and i would assume it was someone in Japan, not the NZ bike shop that sold me the bike...) must have had an issue with the strainer blocking with rust, so such person, being very clever carefully peeled all the mesh off the strainer so it could never block up again.

I am actually impressed with the fuel pump and how well it performed, i did 8000 trouble free kms like that with the fuel pump digesting rust, turning it into a brown powder liquid and feeding it into the fuel filter, and equally impressed with the fuel filter because it didn't let a single bit of the rubbish into my injectors, it just progressively blocked and filtered better and better.

Long story short, spent a week rolling my tank around on the lawn with a POR15 fuel tank repair kit (motozone) to kill the rust (wasn't actually that much, most had sloshed off and gone through the fuel pump), got a second hand strainer and a new fuel pump and filter and up and running again.

I will admit it runs a lot better now revs considerably more than 5000 rpm now.

Funny thing was the bottom of the tank looking through the filler looks mint, no rust at all, not until you pull the fuel pump assembly out from the bottom do you see all the rust sitting on the upper part of the tank where the moisture sits, guess it sat in Japan for a few years, also of interest even filling the tank goes no where near that part of the tank, if it sits and moisture is around then that is where the rust sits and not much you can do about it.

BTW i put a $75 toyota pump in TOYOTA SPACIA YR22 SPRINTER AE102R TRUENO AE111 (FPE 248). it was the closest pump i could find to match the spec of the $250 ducati pump.
Oh yeah and $41 for a foot of 5/16 submersible fuel line (repco) as the existing was rock hard, you have to use submersible fuel line as normal EFI fuel line is not designed for in tank use.
I didn't change the 2ft of vent lines also inside the tank, they were hard but not rock hard.

I have an SS900 as well so i guess i will have to pull the tank on that sometime and have a look

Voltaire

8th May 2019, 13:15

Did the tank on my Superlight recently and much the same.
I've seen photos in the past of lines and line of motorcycles sitting around in warehouses and open areas, so that explains the rust and corrosion.
Those tanks are prone to rust and should all be taken apart and inspected along with new filters and fuel line.
Worse in the injected ones as the vent hose can block and those pumps can sure suck, resulting in a collapsed tank, happened to my one I had in the 00's

Just on that, symptoms were cutting out for no reason. What I was doing then was checking the fuel, ok and it would go fine for another 100+ ks.
Wasn't until I did a long run of over 250 with a tank bag got home and the tank had collapsed did I work it out.

OddDuck

12th May 2019, 09:22

Just installed the replacement thermostat.

Fairly simple job - push into place, tighten hose clips, refill radiator until level consistent, run engine, refill radiator, cap radiator, get engine warm, check for leaks, tighten hose clips as necessary, refit fairings, done.

Before doing that I got the new thermostat into a pot on the stove and checked the opening temperature. I'd tried this with the failed thermostat earlier but couldn't get behaviour I could be sure of - the pin had come out, fragments of wax started leaking into the water, etc etc... Anyway the setup is shown in the pictures. The eggbeater is there for stirring since a little bit of scouting with the thermometer showed non-uniformities in water temperature. Proximity of the thermometer wasn't enough, the water had to be stirred and mixed. Cooling to test closing temperature was done by taking the pot off the stove and putting it into a sink of cold water, then stirring again. Apologies for the colour of the photos, something about warm incandescents and non-uniform spectra of light output. The camera software isn't correcting for the colour temperature properly.

Opening temperature (as far as I can work out) is 68 C. That's an average: it was definitely open at 70 and definitely closed again at 66. That's about as precise as this setup gets without the use of a double boiler and a lot of patience. The eggbeater doesn't put a high volume of flow through the thermostat so there's a big lag in responses to water temperature changes in the pot.

Thanks for the info about tank rust guys. I've already done the fuel filter (as scheduled, every 20,000 kms) but there wasn't a problem before or after. There is rust in the tank (suprisingly most of it is on the tank base, not the top - cheap ethanol blended petrol picking up moisture?) but I'm living with it for now. Filter's OK, pump's OK, fuel lines are looking their age. Proper submersible fuel line may be an issue in NZ so at this stage the plan is to take the bike to the 60,000 interval and then pony up for the stupidly expensive but reliable Ducati OEM hoses. The originals are still working after nearly 20 years and I want to be sure while on the road.

neels

12th May 2019, 12:03

Opening temperature (as far as I can work out) is 68 C. That's an average: it was definitely open at 70 and definitely closed again at 66. That's about as precise as this setup gets without the use of a double boiler and a lot of patience. The eggbeater doesn't put a high volume of flow through the thermostat so there's a big lag in responses to water temperature changes in the pot.
That fits with what mine does on the road, sits pretty consistently at 65-67 running normally with reasonable air flow, only gets any higher if sitting still or crawling in traffic.

Cooling fan doesn't come on until in the 90's which seems a little high, but that's controlled by the ECU so probably can't be altered.

noelh

12th May 2019, 12:18

Hi thanks for that info, just a quick question, where did you get your new housing from? Need to get one for mine by the sounds.

AllanB

12th May 2019, 16:08

From past experience owning eurojunk it seems that around 20 years is the life span for plastic bits associated with the cooling system, and once the first bit has let go the rest are probably not far away.

Mrs B's 2004 Golf has a water leak. Turned out to be a $1 O-ring in between two pipes. Had turned to mush. Cost something like $250 to fix, pressure system to find leak, drain, pull a quarter of the shit off the engine to get to offending part, replace, refit, refill, pressure test ...

Mechanic said it has at least another dozen of the same connections through the cooling system ....

That was at the arse end of the extended aftermarket warranty and that warranty had been over used in the three years we had the car so we flicked it off for a Suzuki. Wouldn't touch another VW unless it had a factory warranty.

Voltaire

12th May 2019, 21:16

Mrs B's 2004 Golf has a water leak. Turned out to be a $1 O-ring in between two pipes. Had turned to mush. Cost something like $250 to fix, pressure system to find leak, drain, pull a quarter of the shit off the engine to get to offending part, replace, refit, refill, pressure test ...

Mechanic said it has at least another dozen of the same connections through the cooling system ....

That was at the arse end of the extended aftermarket warranty and that warranty had been over used in the three years we had the car so we flicked it off for a Suzuki. Wouldn't touch another VW unless it had a factory warranty.

Yeah....hate cars that don't have a 15 year warranty.:rolleyes:
I sold a T4 Diesel van to a mate for cheap ( FB grammar) when the local dealer said the turbo was shot and needed a new one. Well one turbo later and many hours it was a blocked catalytic converter. That's laptop mechanics for ya and 00's diagnostic tool is pretty useless too.
Using his knowledge I bought another T4 turbo that was in limp mode.... hours and hours later it was the mass airflow sensor.

pete376403

12th May 2019, 21:31

At isk of this thread turning into a Eurotrash Bash - up at Pickapart there is a rather nice late model Audi V6, no impact damage. While looking for some useful bits for my EFI project, I started talking to a guy who was getting some stuff off said Audi. Turns out he knew the history of the car and why it was there. The thermostat housing had a leak, the owner was quoted several thousand dollars to repair as it involves dismantling much of the front of the car to get at. Owner declined, kept driving the car with no water pressure and eventually no water, and the engine subsequently overheated and seized. (Doesnt say much for eurotrash owners either...)

Back to your scheduled program.

OddDuck

12th May 2019, 21:52

NoelH - I got the thermostat (complete) off Stein Dinse, two weeks delivered ex Germany. They have a flat rate of EU 40 delivered to NZ / AUS so it's worth lining a few spares up for each order.

Have a look at https://www.stein-dinse.biz/eliste/index.php?sid=ggg&lg=en

The exploded parts diagrams can be very handy plus also they have photos of the parts which can be very useful.

neels

12th May 2019, 22:23

Cost something like $250 to fix, pressure system to find leak, drain, pull a quarter of the shit off the engine to get to offending part, replace, refit, refill, pressure test ...

Mechanic said it has at least another dozen of the same connections through the cooling system ...
There's your mistake, if you want to own an old euro or even a ducati you need to be willing to buy parts from ebay and put the time in yourself if you don't want to be arse raped by mechanics, otherwise buy something <10 years old with <150k on the clock.

That was at the arse end of the extended aftermarket warranty and that warranty had been over used in the three years we had the car so we flicked it off for a Suzuki
You do realise you'd probably fixed all of the things that were going to go wrong with it, and the next owner will have a dream run....and hope to god not a suzuki swift, most inaptly named car in the history of the world.

NoelH - I got the thermostat (complete) off Stein Dinse, two weeks delivered ex Germany. They have a flat rate of EU 40 delivered to NZ / AUS so it's worth lining a few spares up for each order.

Have a look at https://www.stein-dinse.biz/eliste/index.php?sid=ggg&lg=en

The exploded parts diagrams can be very handy plus also they have photos of the parts which can be very useful.

That is a spectacularly useful link. :clap:

noelh

2nd June 2019, 08:15

Hi guys

I managed to get a full PDF parts catalogue from here

http://www.corsa-jp.com/ducati/service/partslist/2000_model/St2_Eu-00/St2_Eu-00.pdf

Quite handy for reassembling when you cannot quite remember how it came apart

noelh

5th June 2019, 15:50

Heres one that doesn't seem to come up very often, most people want to raise their ST2 handlebars not lower them.

I had been having a few back issues after long trips and after a few photos of me on the bike i finally figured out what i was doing to cause the problem, i had also realised that i never had a back issue on my SS900, that just destroys my wrists instead but not my back.

So after looking and thinking a bit i realised on trips at higher speed or in head winds i was trying to tuck behind the windshield as i am mostly a lay down rider anyway, but to acheive that i was sliding back on the seat and that rolls my tailbone up because the only way to lay down was to move backwards because my hands were too high to move my shoulders down any further..

To cut a long story short i managed to get a set of SS900ie clipons for $60 and figured nothing to loose and can always change back (and still can).

1/ Raising the forks in the triple clamps
Not too hard to do, had to remove the fairings to access the lower triple clamp bolts, I spent a lot of time checking fork travel (i have a cable tie on the forks to measure travel and my forks occasionally bottom out because they have M900 springs in them (because i am featherweight) so i know the point of maximum travel.
That was my biggest area of concern, with the forks lowered i have only 5mm between the mudguard and the lower headlight cowling)

2/ Fitting the clipons
No real issues, had to drill a few new holes in the new bars to line up the pins on the 2 electrical switches correctly.

3/ Fitting the brake and clutch levers back on.
Heres where the problems began, the extra lug on the triple clamp on the outside that bolts the old handlebar forging to the triple clamp stops the levers rotating down far enough, I spent quite a bit of time on this and managed to get it acceptable by changing the lower lever clamp bolt from an allen head to a screw, obviously carving the lug off the triple clamp with a hacksaw would be easy enough but no going back.
I had already checked there would be no clash on the fairing cutouts, those are so low one could almost believe they were made for clipons.

4/ Dashboard
I had a few issues with the hydraulic lines hitting the dashboard at full lock, a readjustment of the angle of the hydraulic lines at the banjo bolt on the rear of the master cylinder and a slight shortening of the turning circle adusters solve that.

JOB DONE....

Mostly perfect, the brake lever needs to rotate downward a little further, i will either get a SS900ie top triple clamp or a ST2 one and carve the excess off, apparantly the SS900 and ST2 have the same dimension triple clamp, I will get around to that sometime. OVerall the bars are 40mm lower and 25mm further forward that the old ones and angle down a bit more.

How does it feel? The million dollar question????????????

I am much more comfortable, now i can sit close to the tank and lie on the rear of the tank, my arms sit closer to the tank and if i rotate down i can actually put my lower arms in those 2 grooves on the tank that were made for arms to lie in.
It is no where as low as my SS so still quite comfortable, I have done a few longer rides in the last 2 weeks and can actually find no negatives on the comfort front

Certainly goes around corners quicker, i was a little concerned that the steepening of the steering from raising the forks would be noticeable but not really, the only thing i really notice is the back brake locks easier because less weight on the rear and the front brakes are a bit more powerful.

Overall it handles better, as you might expect, more like a sports tourer than ever before.

I wouldn't recommend this to everyone, most people seem to want their bars higher, I have had the wife on the back too and she actually likes it as she has more seat, that habit of mine of sliding my butt backwards was stealing her seat space....

342048342049

OddDuck

15th July 2019, 20:40

A quick comment on the Ducati OEM clutch pressure plate. I went through this earlier with the 900SS...

The clutch is having trouble releasing properly, particularly when hot. The bike bangs its way through the gears, particularly neutral into first. I've been putting a lot of work into checking friction and steel plates flatness, notching on hub and basket, air bubbles in the hydraulic circuit etc but I hadn't really had a look at the pressure plate itself.

The stock OEM item is a diecast item, made from zinc-aluminium alloy and covered in weight saving cutouts. It's been braced and buttressed very nicely, with stress relieving curves everywhere, but it's featherlight. Taking it off the ST2, cleaning it up and having a good look at it showed that it's got cracks. This cracking follows the pattern seen in the 900SS but isn't quite as advanced.

Aluminium isn't particularly stiff. It gets less stiff with temperature. The pressure plate will get hot as the clutch operates, both from engine heat and friction off the clutch pack. Cracking definitely won't help. It's not really a stretch to imagine that the de-clutching problems have a lot to do with this pressure plate flexing under load.

Effectively the plate operates like a beam. The clutch plunger rod pushes it in the middle, the six springs push it the other way on either side, and beyond that is the radius where it contacts the clutch pack. If it flexes then it effectively looses travel. Taken to the extreme, if it flexed enough then the clutch wouldn't release at all.

I went looking for something in the aftermarket and found the pictured items from Oberon. Delivery took just under a week via the expensive shipping option. They're the simplest design available, basically zero bling factor and exactly what I want. No cutouts, no weight saving, no fancy graphics. I changed the ST2 plate over tonight, haven't ridden it yet, but clutch release does seem improved just turning it by hand.

EDIT: took the bike for brief ride and yes clutch action is improved fairly significantly. Well worth doing if you're starting to have issues with disengagement and gearchanges going through with a clunk.

OddDuck

28th October 2019, 20:53

A while ago I'd posted about the output shaft (to front sprocket) having an issue with sprocket float and chewing the retaining washers up fairly regularly.

It looks like the bike was run for a long time with the rear wheel poorly aligned to the chain. This would drag the front sprocket either inboard or outboard. I've sorted the alignment, but that still leaves me with an output shaft that will eat retaining washers pretty regularly. The (now) 45 degree angle of the spline ends will just cut its way straight into the washers. I had a look online for fixes - various people have tried various things - but it's not as straightforward a problem as I'd like. There's persistent rattling, it's a grindy environment that constantly sucks road dust in, and the sprocket itself is a loose fit to the spline and rattles. Any rigid fix will rapidly get un-rigid, and might even present a hazard if it could come loose at speed and then cause some kind of failure.

In the end I've gone with a simple split collar, clamping on the output shaft. This was fairly straightforward to turn up in a lathe and then hacksaw for the split, drill press for the cap screw etc. It simply clamps on the OD of the splined shaft. I'd got as much thread engagement on the cap screw as possible and it's threadlocked. There's no attempt to match the spline and no need to, it doesn't transmit torque. It's simply a stop against the sprocket walking inboard.

I've put a few thousand k's of riding on it - around town, back country etc. So far so good, no issues as yet.

OddDuck

19th December 2019, 21:47

A quick look at the collar, during the 50,000 km service.

There's been just enough motion between sprocket and collar that there's been wear. Measuring with the verniers has shown thickness variation of 0.3mm around the perimeter - it hasn't been wearing parallel. The output shaft has shiny metal at the already damaged ends of the spline. However the lock plate appears in good order, there's light dishing on the outboard side but almost no damage inboard. The spline itself has the dreaded red dust, indicating high pressure steel on steel contact. The sprocket has a lot of loose float.

The collar hasn't loosened on the spline, which I'd been concerned about as a possibility.

OddDuck

19th December 2019, 22:03

Just having a play with an idea tonight - shimming the sprocket to the spline to reduce or eliminate rattly diameters float.

I took a rough measurement of radial float via dial gauge, finding it to be around 0.50 mm or so. I.e. 0.25mm each side.

The pictures show the basic concept. A strip of shim (0.127 mm brass here) is progressively rolled around the output shaft's spline. The collar is used to keep it straight (provide a 90 degree reference surface), the pin and the toolmaker's clamp hold the first groove to the spline, then the next groove is formed via the ruler's edges. Clamp and form, move clamp along one, repeat for required number of splines. Tinsnip to just under required length.

The shim isn't a perfect match to the spline of course. It'll have S curves and similar, where the splines are hard edges and corners. This is the reason for going undersize on the thickness - there'll ideally be enough spring to take up any slack or free play, at least if I were to do this again in stainless.

The front sprocket's inboard spline edges were chamfered and rounded off via needle files. This is to make sure that the edges of the shim were pushed into the spline's forms instead of binding up on a hard edge. The use of a high molybdenum grease also helped with assembly.

Assembly: the shim was test fitted to the sprocket, pushed into the grooves with the scriber, then removed and fitted to the output shaft. The collar braced it against slipping out at the rear. The sprocket was then carefully pushed on by hand, with care taken to make sure the shim was feeding in correctly. A bit of rocking sideways got it done, there was no need to use some sort of pusher bolt arrangement or high amounts of force.

The sprocket is now nicely centered and non-rattly or wobbly. For now, anyway. I don't think that the brass is going to hold up for very long, it's simply too soft, but as a prototype it's worth a try. The moly grease on both sides of the shim should help, and anyway soft brass is sacrificial.

As to why I did this... the bike's been getting rough to ride. I've been thinking it's the fuelling, but the sprocket clacking its way through it's own spline could be part of what's happening.

noelh

23rd December 2019, 06:13

Have you considered putting grease on the spline? That could possibly stop some of the wear
Just a thought i had on reading this.

OddDuck

23rd December 2019, 07:23

Yes, I've been doing that, but with very limited success - the joint is so open that the grease gets pushed and flung out very quickly. Unfortunately the spline is already heavily worn, it was like this when I got the bike. Previous owner apparently used it as a commuter (yes really) and we all know how that goes... if it isn't broke then don't bother preventative maintenancing it.

I've got a couple of hundred k's on the shim now and so far so good.

OddDuck

27th December 2019, 22:25

Just a quick note about this... I've recently replaced the battery (a PowerRoad of unknown age) with a new Yuasa, after having some rough running issues and momentary cut-outs while riding. Not the best really... the new battery has greatly improved both, plus starting, but there have been two unexpected pluses:

1) More consistent engine temperatures

2) Better fuel economy

It had been threatening to overheat in sustained slow running, and also going through petrol at a fairly quick rate. I don't have hard numbers on either unfortunately.

I did notice after the last period with the PowerRoad that the battery itself had been warm, and continued to be warm even after the engine right next to it had cooled down. I also tested ac voltage across it with my cheapo Jaycar meter, finding 0.15-ish V ac across the battery terminals with the engine running. I haven't run the same test with the Yuasa just yet though.

I think I've been getting a weak spark on the non-fired cylinder. I've been through this before, with the 900SS... a high resistance anywhere in the line back to the battery, or in the battery itself, could do this. An inductive spike on one ignition coil (normal firing) will be seen by the other coil on any linked system such as a V-twin, and will cause a voltage movement on that non-firing coil's primary and then secondary winding. That'll happen without the coil being switched due to the coil's own inductance. At low pressure you don't need much in the way of kV to spark, especially if it's momentary rather than sustained.

On one cylinder this weak spark won't matter, it'll happen during the exhaust stroke. On the other cylinder it'll happen during either induction or compression. There'll be a tiny burp instead of proper combustion, the nascent flame bubble will quench, but the cylinder will still have to compress mixture which is hotter than it should be. Then it fires properly, at the correct time, but with higher compression due to the initial higher temperatures. The engine will be fighting itself a bit. So: rough running, loss of power, poor fuel economy. The bike's much improved and all it took was to replace the battery.

It isn't quite where I want it though and I'm wondering about the ignition relay/s. A high resistance on the relay contacts would do this as well. They're what I suspect are the original Bosch components. It's been 20 years and 50,000 km's; does anyone have experience with how well relays age?

No pics sorry.

ruaphu

28th December 2019, 21:47

Love your threads, make for very informative reading, keep em coming.

Re the relay query. I take it is meant being the good ole mechanical relay commonly found in automotive use.

Rare for mechanical relay contacts to break down (unless cheap Chinese junk) to the point they create connectivity issues (i.e. connectivity across closed contacts is in ohms instead of
Milli ohms) When closed/energised there is considerable pressure on the contacts by design to ensure a low resistance current path is maintained.

Typical automotive relays are fairly robust, current flow across contacts is typically well below what they can actually electrically handle consistently without creating excessive pitting of the surfaces.

Pitting of the contact surfaces can occur where excessive amperage persists, typically as a result of poor voltage...... usually a battery issue however can be a result of a high resistance joint in the circuit somewhere.

A visual check (if accessible) of the contact surfaces can easily spot poor contact condition. If badly pitted, bin it as its not worth the hassle of attempting to clean up being contacts are multi coated surfaces.

Weak points on a relay. The spring mechanism can lose tension, but not a commonly occurring issue. Wear issues on the hinge section, this can cause contacts to mis-align thus cause damage or poor connectivity across contacts, but again not common ( have seen this on numerous Subaru’s for some reason) Coil issues, these are common, if it hums or ‘chatters’ its knackered, bin it, simple as that.

If the relays on your bike are the type that can have the cover removed to expose the workings check and see if its had water, crc or wd40 in it..... if so..... bin it. They can, however be cleaned using good ole electrical circuit cleaners.

Changing mechanical relays for solid state / electronic relays can be a good alternative but need to be suitably sized and good quality. Stray voltages (as caused by the coils or other components) can be catastrophic for them. Other than that are bulletproof if a tad pricy (well they were when i was using them ten or so years back)

Lastly, check the connection points, these are often neglected and are regularly the cause of most issues from erratic to complete non operation of either the relay or the accessory being switched.

Have fun [emoji106]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

noelh

30th December 2019, 15:53

When i was down south at the burt monroe this year in Feb i had starting issues develop, firstly intermittent but then i got to invercargill and it just would not crank.
So i ended up pulling the fairing off in the Railway Hotel car park and doing some quick diagnosis (I am an auto electrician BTW)

Turned out the side stand relay was clicking in but not making circuit ( bit of a redundant relay in my JAPANESE ST2 as there is no switch on the sidestand and the coil wires are bridged, basically the relay turns on an off with the ignition). Managed to fix easily with a $20 relay from Repco.

Unlike my BMW which uses all sorts of odd BOSCH relays the ST2 uses only 2 types of relays ( Excluding the flasher ) they are common as and since the burt i have deleted the side stand relay and replaced the main relays (Main, HEAD and Fan) and put one of each kind in my spares under the seat, total cost less than $100.

The fan relay is important and is located in the tail piece above the headlight.

So my advice, just replace them every 10 years and carry 1 spare of each type.

Thanks for the battery article too, very interesting
I just changed my fork Oil too, that was fun.... three hands required until i figured out how to use a tie down to take the tension off the spring

Noel H

OddDuck

30th December 2019, 19:00

Thanks for the replies guys. ruaphu - that's good technical info, I'd been toying with the idea of popping covers and mechanically cleaning contacts but not now!! NoelH - I like the idea of just replace every 10 years for less than $100, and I definitely like the idea of having new spares to hand - I take it that I can whip in to any auto electrical shop and they'll have the types needed?

I took the bike out for a decent ride just a couple of days ago (roughly 350 km's) and it's now lost it's remaining rough edges. I'm suspecting gunked up fuel in the injector nozzles finally getting washed out. Short rides, hot injector bodies once stopped, fuel turning into varnish and so on. Anyway, range is now roughly 380 km on a 21 litre tank for country riding, that's around 18 km's / litre, or 5.4 litres per 100 km. Again, I can't be sure what it was prior to replacing the battery, but I did two fuel stops yesterday when usually I'd have done three.

noelh

31st December 2019, 13:49

Yes, BNT, Repco or Auto electrical, the 2 relays they use ( the square main one (one required) and the smaller rectangle ones (2 - 3 required)) are very common, if they are charging more than $25 (retail) then look sideways, trade they are about $12 + GST.

I dont carry a spare of the rectangle one as i can pinch the high beam on if requried.

Do you need a wiring diagram, email me hutchingsnoel@gmail.com if you do.

Thats about right, i can get 380kms at a pinch out of a tank but start to get twitchy about 320kms.

I put the MBP retaining collets in mine a month ago when i did the valve clearances, will let you guys know how they go, i got my exhausts down to nearly zero and hopefully they will stay there, going to check after 2000km, they are not too dear for a 2v, $125US a set.

Hopefully i can do valve clearances less in the future.

Just changed my fork oil to 5w too, made a big difference, doesn't punch my wrists as hard.

OddDuck

31st December 2019, 18:56

Thanks Noelh - that's good news about the relays. OK, will take a couple of cellphone piccies and go shopping when things open again.

I'm good for wiring diagrams, I have a full set of the factory workshop manuals in sleeve binders. One thing these manuals have which I think is gold is line drawings (probably from photos) of the wiring loom and how things are laid out, with a clear map of component location.

MBP Collets: that's a good idea too, I checked valve clearances as part of the 50,000 km service and everything is very slightly opening up. It's almost certainly the stock half circle wire retainers. I had the same with the 900SS and once I put the MBP's in, the valve clearances stayed put.

My manuals said that the factory oil was 7.5 W, here in good old NZ I had a choice between 5W and 10W fork oil. I went with the 10. Mixed feelings - it's definitely a bang if you go over something but it's better for brisk riding between throttle and brake. Depends what you want to do I guess.

It's been a good day out riding, brilliant weather through the Wairarapa today.

OddDuck

7th January 2020, 21:00

Brass sprocket shim - gone! Completely destroyed in around 1,000 km of riding. The fragments photographed next to the allen key set are the biggest bits left. I got some flakes and fragments off the inside of the sprocket cover but really that's it. I'd expected it to get chewed up sooner or later but seeing it completely absent was a surprise. OK, so not everything works out - the brass really is too soft for this. It might be worth trying again with slightly thicker stainless, but I'd want a more assertive method of folding it into spline grooves than pushing with a ruler, and that means machining up some kind of custom rolling tool. At this point it's getting into more serious territory than this particular output shaft deserves.

Earlier I'd machined up an external cover, similar to the collar but fitting over the lock washer and its bolts. It axially restrains the front sprocket and helps stop tilt but nothing more, it won't stop it rattling back and forth. Torsional lock onto the output shaft is provided by machining it slightly undersize, so that the splines force grooves into it on fitting (these can be seen in the photo if you look closely). For now I'll run with this and the collar and see how it works out. There's some chain lube in the spline teeth, too. The moly grease from earlier is almost completely gone as well, it seems to flow and fling, and without O-ring seals or similar I think more will just disappear in short order.

OddDuck

7th January 2020, 21:12

I've replaced the ignition relay. Just a very short note about this...

The photo shows the new relay (the cover is sealed), the relay I took off the ST2 in the center, and a slightly older relay off the 900SS on the right. The ST2's former relay is clearly on the way out. The solenoid coil is discoloured and it also had that smell of cooked electrical insulation. The contactor pads looked alright though.

Two of the relay's underside terminals are discoloured, apparently by sustained heating. The other terminal blades appear alright. This is concerning - local heating like this would imply that there's a resistance in the crimp connectors which push on here, or heat coming down out of the relay itself. I haven't checked the crimp terminal connectors in the loom itself yet.

Relay types: it turns out that 87 and 87a (marked on the underside) do mean different things, replacing with the correct type is the difference between the bike firing up good as gold or absolutely nothing happening when the key is turned. It's the only difference between the two relay types. I've marked my spares as Injector or Ignition so I don't get them confused later.

I took the bike for a ride with the new relay and there's a slight further improvement. Still not perfect but liveable for now.

neels

7th January 2020, 21:53

OddDuck

8th January 2020, 07:25

Tried a quick experiment on the weekend - a back country loop that incorporated 30 km of gravel roads. Hilly, hard base, not really a heavy street bike's natural environment. I'd bought a small bicycle pump with a pressure gauge and tried deliberately deflating the tyres from the normal 38 psi to 25 (ish) to improve grip. We re-inflated at the other end to highway pressure.

The reasoning for this was that transitions on short stretches of gravel are a reality if you're back country touring in NZ. It's nowhere near as frequent as it used to be: the network of fully sealed roads expands every time the local councils have spare budget to get rid of. The sealed portions lengthen and finally link up, closing loops. However any really interesting touring will involve gravel at some point. It might just be a couple of k's, it might be more. So it pays to be prepared to ride it.

Anyway, the stretch that I tried was about the best test possible for the idea: hilly, narrow, up and down, pitched cambers and washboard corrugations, and loose stones on a hard base.

The tyre deflation didn't really work as well as I'd hoped. I just ended up with more tyre sitting on top of gravel, which then rolled between rubber and the road base. Expanding the contact patch via deflation helped slightly but it was no substitute for knobblies. Sorting inflation at each end was a hassle; highway pressures on a hot tyre were also inaccurate and the tyres needed topping up again later on. The other issue with this technique (I found this out talking with people after trying it) was the very real risk of tyre delamination due to flexing and overheating. This could lead to catastrophic failure at speed on the sealed highway later on.

In short, dual purpose tyres exist for a reason.

The rear brake proved twitchy, too. The ST series bikes are known for a lack of feel on the rear - it's either on or off, without much in the way of progression. On a loose surface like gravel, running slow, the rear brake is generally best to use - if there's a lockup then that's a lot easier to recover from than the front going sideways abruptly. It took a couple of goes before I learnt to go super light on the rear. Going downhill though, even a moderate slope effectively meant near to zero ability to stop the bike.

The other thing that happened was overheating. I'd had a few ideas about what it'd be like taking the ST2 onto gravel but hadn't expected this: the bike really didn't cope with extended running at under 30 km/h. There simply wasn't enough airflow through the radiator, even with the engine only running at light throttle. Halfway through, the 120+ flashing warning came up and I had to close down for twenty minutes. If I'd been able to post a 45-ish average (on that surface) I'd have been alright, but I'm simply not that good a rider. That was reinforced quite nicely by a relatively mild camber putting me into the ditch... it only took about 15 degrees sideways camber to do it too. Once in, it's hard to get the bike back out again, with the rear wheel skidding like hell on the edge of the ditch and the whole bike going sideways. It was bad but better than what could have happened if I'd met an oncoming vehicle and been unable to pull over to the left properly. There were way too many corners where I was in the middle or even right hand side of the road, simply because of the cambers.

After the ditch I realised why the handful of vehicles I'd seen had been rolling so slowly (well under 50 k's): even the farmer's utes and SUVs were having significant tyre drift. Apparently there's also a legal issue with these types of roads, the law here is that you need to be able to stop in half the distance that you can see ahead of you. That could mean being found at fault should there be some sort of collision and liable for the other guy's repairs. So ability to go slow counts.

It was a very useful learning experience but I'll try to keep the ST2 on seal only from now on.

neels

8th January 2020, 09:09

I've ridden my ST2 on gravel, it's a pig.

noelh

8th January 2020, 14:05

I have actually ridden and do ride my ST2 on gravel LOTS, yes it is a pig and i have been in the ditch and done tank slappers a few times but in reality it is no different to a mulitstrada or other big dual purpose bike, One thing i have noticed (compared to the Pirelli angels I had prior) is the Michelin road 5s i have, as well as being much better in the wet work really well on gravel because of the big grooves in them. (and they work really well on the road too, they are all i buy now).

I have never had any overheating problem either, and we do 30-40 km metal roads sometimes so not sure why you had a heating issue?

I can generally pass most dual purpose bikes because the ST2 being so low actually sits better than a taller bike, reminds me of my XR500 30 years ago.

Theres my 10c worth...

As far as the main relay goes, my one has 2 x 87 terminals and a 30 terminal, no 87a so it is not a changeover type, I probably should have mentioned that. The non change over ones often have 2 x 87 terminals and if going into a 4 pin socket you break off the not required pin with long nose pliers.

I use silicon grease on my terminals (except the Main EFI computer connector, dont EVER grease that multi pin connector)

Keep riding and keep the info coming.

OddDuck

8th January 2020, 15:39

The overheating's probably from riding like a great big scaredy-cat, I hate that feeling of the bike being loose so I slow right down. More gravel experience on something lighter and much cheaper to drop would probably sort that out.

Thanks for the tip about the Michelin Road 5's. I'm running Bridgestone T31 Evos and so far have been very happy with them on tarmac both wet and dry, however they're almost slicks in the middle and terrible on gravel.

Overheating - it still isn't quite where it should be - I can see three further possibilities:

1) I've got another high resistance spot somewhere in the wiring loom between coils and battery, believable on a 20 y.o. bike

2) The exhaust gaskets are starting to let go and the engine is sucking outside air into the cylinder on the transition between exhaust pulse and induction cycle, running lean as a result (it has been sounding different lately)

3) A sensor has gone bad and is telling the CPU wrong things about (say) air temperature

Checking 3) is going to be tricky but 1) can be done with a thermal imaging camera once the fairing's off and 2) is a teardown and visual check. I've already got the spares on order (the header nuts and studs are a rusted solid mess) so hopefully I can get this done in the next few days.

neels

9th January 2020, 07:37

3) A sensor has gone bad and is telling the CPU wrong things about (say) air temperature
Have had this one with the water temp sensors, when the fairings were off I noticed that the wiring looked a bit odd, the cables had been swapped between the front and rear cylinder sensors. Turns out one connects to the ECU, the other to the temp gauge. Put them back where they belonged and temp gauge was intermittent due to crook solder joints on the sensor connector pins, hacked it open and added a short cable between the sensor and connector and all good again.

Radiator fan on mine comes on at about 100° on the temp gauge, this is controlled by the ECU via the above sensor.

OddDuck

10th January 2020, 22:16

Thanks Neels - I've replaced both water temp sensors around a year ago so I'm sure these are OK.

Having had spare parts arrive, I took the mufflers and the headers off today and had a nosey. The bottom two fairing panels had to come off - so far so good - then I had to unscrew the corroded on M8 steel nuts on the exhaust headers. Standard procedure is to soak them in PB Blaster and leave to wick in for around two hours, then use a six-point socket. The two on the horizontal cylinder were easy enough, as was the left hand side of the vertical cylinder, but I had a hell of a time with the vertical exhaust's inboard nut. It's tucked right into all the clutter behind the engine and also into the curve of the header pipe. I broke it loose with a ring spanner, then had to undo the thing about a twelfth of a turn at a go with the open end. That was all the swing I had to work with due to the clutter. A stubby would have been very helpful and a set of these are now on the shopping list. I just couldn't get anything in my socket systems to fit.

It's possible that a 1/4" format socket, universal joint and extension bar might work, but the real problem here was the use of standard M8 nuts. They're 13mm across the flats, the sockets of course are bigger, and even thin-walled 3/8th format just doesn't fit into that header pipe's shoulder. Ducati use a special copper alloy nut with a 10mm hex and this would have been one hell of a lot easier to work with.

It kept on like this... there's gasket goo on the clamp joint between headers, stainless fasteners screwed into plain steel on the mufflers, and I'm pretty well certain that the old exhaust gaskets were re-used. They've been crushed right down.

A look inside the exhaust ports, and at the gasket faces of the header pipes, confirmed a minor exhaust leak on the vertical cylinder. So it was worth getting in to sort this out.

Stainless fasteners on the mufflers may be a problem due to galvanic corrosion. They're contacting the aluminium outer shell of the mufflers, and are threaded into something on the inside made of what looks like a grade of mild steel. The steel inner component has rusted, badly, and one of the stainless bolts galled its threads on being unscrewed, locked, and broke off. It didn't take much force to break it, either. I suspect that the stainless hasn't been handling repeated heat-cool cycles very well, even though it hasn't visibly degraded. I'll be attempting to drill and extract this later. OEM Ducati fastening here is a passivated steel M8 hex head bolt and what looks like a special large diameter (possibly aluminium) washer, I'll probably return to this or similar. BZP is possible but I'm not sure how well the zinc will behave once threaded into plain steel and everything heated to whatever temperature the mufflers get to normally.

This is a problem because (as I relearned again) reassembly of the Ducati muffler system depends on hanging everything back onto the bike - headers, mufflers, all brackets etc - with all fasteners loose. It can't be done in stages because it's too easy to set the headers at an angle and then not feed into the mufflers properly. So everything's got to be in place first before tightening of any fasteners.

As to why I was so keen to get this bolt undone... whoever worked on the mufflers previously has used badly undersized washers, which have cut their way into the aluminium hangar brackets. The edges of the washers are engaged and are cutting into the bracket. They're slowly but surely forcing the mufflers to move, which will be putting a force onto the header cross joint. This may be a factor in why the exhaust system started leaking, too.

The photos show the headers and ports as they were when everything came off the bike. I've cleaned everything up and reinstalled headers with fresh gaskets and proper OEM Ducati header nuts, I'll have to attempt to sort the muffler out later.

OddDuck

12th January 2020, 08:47

I got the broken off and jammed in bolt out yesterday. This stuff is the mechanic's nightmare... the head's gone, the bastard thing is jammed tight, there's not enough stub left to get vice grips onto it, and there's no way it can be ignored. The usual story is drill and apply an EZ-Out; I don't think this would have worked here. Once threads gall together, there's a ball of metal-to-metal weld and any attempt to force it just snowballs that weld. You can force the thing out (if the EZ-Out doesn't either slip or snap) but you'll rip the thread out while doing it. I didn't have an EZ-Out small enough anyway.

I accidentally found a technique which might be worth sharing. Most of this isn't in the photos unfortunately.

1) drill right through the bolt, use a small diameter pilot drill at first

2) progressively expand the drill diameter until the hole wall is nearly at the threads, it will almost certainly be off-center but that's alright as long as there's a paper-thin wall on the old bolt

3) use a pin punch around the broken stub to smash the fastener inwards, make it collapse into itself via the hole through the center

4) it should now be loose, if pliers or EZ-Out can unscrew the thing then job done

5) if it jams, progressively smash the old bolt inwards by pin punch on the fastener walls, centerpunch flat areas and use a small drill to gradually remove metal and work down

6) once it's down a few threads in the hole, the original female thread can be used as a drill guide. Caution with this though - if it's a steel fastener into aluminium there's a very good chance that the drill will walk sideways into the threads instead of staying on-axis and on-center on the old bolt.

7) run a tap through the threads and clean out all fragments prior to fitting a new fastener. A single shaving left in a thread can cause the new bolt to lock up like the old one. A compressed air gun with a nozzle fine enough to go to the bottom of the hole is the ultimate for cleaning out a tapped thread in a blind hole, but cotton buds, white spirits and patience works too.

I had a couple of advantages with this particular job: there was enough stub left to fit a standard M8 nut and use that as an initial drill guide, and it was threaded into thick-walled steel, not soft aluminium. The pin punch smash-up technique might be too brutal for alloy, particularly engine casings. A lot of care is needed with the drill while doing this, it'd be very easy to break small drill bits with sudden break-throughs and drills binding up, or just pushing too hard. You really need to be in a non-angry, non hurry sort of a mood when doing this kind of work despite how easy it'd be to get frustrated.

One thing that I should mention: stainless steel work hardens very quickly during drilling if it's allowed to get hot. Initially the shavings come out and things look good, then the drilling slows right down, then drills go blunt very quickly. If you've got smoke coming off things then it's already too hot. Speed and force don't help here, keeping the material cool does. The ideal is to have a machinist's water-based cutting fluid and keep it wet at all times. I didn't have this so had to resort to a jam jar filled with water and frequent dips of the drill into this, plus lots of aerosol cutting oil. It's messy but it works. Re-sharpening drills helps greatly as well, this can be done fairly quickly with a standard bench grinder and a bit of practice.

In the end the old fastener came out as a pile of drill shavings. There wasn't a recognisable fragment of the old bolt left. I was very pleased to find that despite the abuse, the old thread was in nearly perfect condition. There'll be no issue with using the muffler again.

The tap was very tight when cleaning out the threads, which is why I think the jam happened in the first place. Time and oxidation have taken their toll here: steel expands when it rusts so tight clearances close up. One of my little rules is that a fastener should twirl into place between thumb and forefinger. If it won't then something is wrong.

Laava

12th January 2020, 16:52

Jeez bro, you sure are patient!
Something you need to be with Ducati ownership as I am regularly reminded...

OddDuck

12th January 2020, 18:52

Haha thanks Laava!

Yeah there were a couple of moments where I could have gone full Hulk and smash smash smash... but no. It was a challenge.

Just a really quick note about further work today... the ST series use a muffler with a swivel joint, this means that the muffler is pinned in position to the headers instead of being able to move along a slide joint, and that means that the hangar bracket needs to move along the axis of the muffler when refitting. This has to be done each time when changing exhaust gaskets etc since very small movements or angles at the cylinder head means large movements at the swivel. So the two mounting bolts actually need to loosen and retighten occasionally, you can't set them once and that's it.

After a think about the issues, I've settled on this solution for now:

- BZP grade 8.8 fasteners and washers, not stainless

- use of copper coat anti-seize on threads

- positively retaining the head of the bolt, not the thread, against vibration and loosening.

I've done the last by a spring washer and an M8 mudguard washer which has been curved to match the curve of the hangar. That means there's a positive shape match between the two, it isn't just a flat washer sitting and being held by friction. The spring washer should ideally dig into both the bolt and the washer, just a bit, so there's the positive retention required. The mudguard washer was bent by holding it in a vise (soft jaws used) and hitting it with a hammer. The three lines show the positions in the vise jaws. It's a bit rough but so far seems alright, although I'll be checking fasteners very closely after each ride for a while.

OddDuck

24th January 2020, 07:13

The bike's developed a really nasty tingle through the bars and the pegs lately - feels like detonation or mis-timed ignition. It seems to be a part of the overheating issues as well. It's a funny effect though, the bike's smooth like it should be first thing, good for about twenty-ish minutes, and then the effect sets in and just gets worse if I keep riding. I've been having a look and reckon there are three areas of concern:

1) old rubber in the cooling system, especially the O-rings connecting to the cylinder heads
2) old rubber on the inlet manifolds after the throttle plates, again O-rings to the cylinder heads
3) old crimp connectors in the wiring loom, especially around the battery.

The ignition depends on being able to use the battery as a snubber; it's where pulses from ignition coils get smoothed out. Good clean connections are essential. I can (and have) cleaned up battery terminal posts, spade lug faces, etc, but of course it's not possible to get inside a crimp terminal. I've spent the last couple of nights having a good look at the originals, both main loom and starter motor cables, and it looks like they're getting a bit tired... hopefully the attached photos show a few things. I took the time to check the 40 amp rec-reg fuse as well since the connectors were showing their age, but thermally this came in OK.

The thermal images were taken with a FLIR C2 mixed image thermal / optical camera of the positive and negative battery terminals and cables, immediately after an engine start. It's a cheaper unit with an offset between the two imaging systems, hence the apparent mismatch during close-up work. The bit of brass shim wrapped over the steel battery terminal adaptors was an earlier attempt to improve things, which actually did help (especially with starting) but didn't stop the problem occurring once the bike was running and warmed up.

Just a really quick note about the thermal camera - for diagnostic work it is a very helpful tool. I could clearly see high resistance spots in the loom, or confirm that apparently old connectors were still OK. It wasn't easy to get good photos but a lot could be seen just walking around the bike with it. The other thing was that I'd been concerned about the cooling system, both thermostat and impellor. The thermal camera clearly showed the entire radiator quickly warming up once the bike warmed up to nominal thermostat opening temperature.

OddDuck

24th January 2020, 19:07

A further look at the crimps... I've had a go at making my own starter cables, engine ground, and replacing the main loom's battery crimps. As part of that I did some destructive testing, namely cutting test crimps in half through the crimp area and polishing the ends up.

Ideally the crimp should have a closed perimeter and no gaps anywhere inside. It should be 100% clean metal throughout, any oxides or oils will get trapped in the joint. The hexagonal shape is the new work I've done. The closed letter-C shapes, in brass on copper wire, are the OEM Ducati crimps, in this case the first sectioned item with black insulation is one of the starter cables, the second (with red and purple in the background) is the loom connection to the positive terminal on the battery.

There are vacancies clearly visible on the Ducati crimps, gaps between the wire bundle and the crimp terminal, and also a hexagonal pattern of oxides between wire strands. I suspect that the brass has been relaxing with time and opening up, allowing oxides to work their way up into the crimp zone and start to break it up. Maybe the oxides forced their way in, in a similar effect to steel bodywork going rusty under paint a long way from the open damage, not that it matters now. It looks a great deal like it wasn't crimped particularly hard at the factory. The connector isn't in good shape, in other words.

My new work isn't perfect (there are still vacancies in the wire strand bundle) but they do look like an improvement. That's the starter cables and engine ground. Unfortunately I've had to put a new terminal over old wiring for the loom connectors. The ground side of the loom was still good shiny copper but the positive side had gone brown... I've taken the risk and crimped over dull copper. In hindsight I should have pickled the wire beforehand with some jeweller's Pre-Pro, it's good stuff available online through Regal Castings. I've used this before on annealed copper washers with success, it dissolves all oxides right down to bare copper. We'll see if this works, if it doesn't I guess I'm into replacing wiring or trying to re-crimp again.

For those interested in the super close up photos and how they were done... 35mm true macro lens capable of 1:1 magnification, plus 25mm extension tube. The lens had a ring light which was very helpful.

OddDuck

25th January 2020, 14:22

Some progress today, replaced old starter cables with new, applied heatshrink over the loom connectors, and made a new pair of brass battery terminal adaptors to replace the steel Ducati originals.

The new battery terminal adaptors are made from cut-down premium marine battery terminals. I got these off Burnsco for $12 each. It took about half an hour per each with a hacksaw, file, drill and M6 tap to get them to fit to the bike.

First start has been tried and the bike's starting, and cold idling, has immediately improved. While the engine was running I took the chance to shoot a couple of thermal images, front and rear of the battery, showing the positive and negative terminals. Cable heating appears greatly reduced but it's not quite an apples to apples test; ambient on the previous test was around 18 C and today it's in the mid-20's. The cables look like they're running cooler relative to background but that's all I can be sure of.

Bonez

25th January 2020, 15:56

I don't get why ypu need that brass extenion at all. Is the cable too short? I mean my '76 550 has it's original cables connected directly to the battery with no issues at all in all these years. In those days large crumped cables were soldered at the ends if they weren't enclosed so there is contact with all the strands..

OddDuck

25th January 2020, 18:09

Good point. I guess Ducati weren't keen on cables crossing the battery top surface, with electrolyte ports straight underneath that wiring. Also, the manual explicitly states that cables sharing a terminal post should be set at 90 degrees, which makes sense - this guarantees that spade lugs on the same post are sitting on their flats, not tightened up against each others barrels. So with packaging constraints the only smart way to do it was to take the cables out to the flank of the battery and rotate the attachment plane by 90 degrees via an adaptor.

Using a steel adaptor was questionable though and that's why I've gone to brass. The other reason to keep something similar to the original setup was that the main loom was set for that position. I could force it to the battery terminals directly but that'd be putting a strain onto the wiring that I wouldn't be happy with.

OddDuck

30th January 2020, 21:58

Manifold O-rings having arrived, I opened the bike up tonight and got the inlet manifolds onto the bench so I could have a proper look at things.

Getting at the manifolds was a bit fiddly. Drain tank, prop tank up, remove airbox (pull vertical cylinder's airbox to throttle body rubber out through the airbox first), unscrew injectors from throttle bodies, unplug TPS, and bingo, straight to the inlet manifolds. Which is where it got a bit difficult...

I haven't pictured this but whoever designed the manifolds didn't leave enough room to get a normal ring spanner onto the nuts. I ended up taking an angle grinder to one of mine, thinning the web of the spanner down, in order to make it fit. The clearance between manifold wall and stud is so tight that the flanged nut itself can foul on it. The nominal torque setting on this fastener is 23.5 Nm; I have no idea how I'm going to set this torque on the rebuild. Even 1/4" drive sockets won't fit in here since the manifold overshadows the axis of the stud enough to block a drive. Perhaps some open end crow's foot spanners are necessary, but maybe it's just better to set the nut back by feel with the same combination spanner I took it off with. It's got a self-lock metal washer built into it so it won't come off.

The stock O-rings are fine. There's maybe the tiniest hint of set - maybe. They still look like they've got a nominally round cross section and they're definitely proud of their grooves. If there was a vacuum leak, it wasn't from these.

The inlet manifolds themselves though... yeah it's not good. I am pretty sure that the vertical cylinder's manifold (pictured) has a crack, visible over around 1/8th of the circumference and probably spread wider. It also looks like the stock manifold has thick rubber but thin aluminium, particularly in the area where it's bonded together. There's also what looks like permanent shrinkage of the rubber away from the manifold. It's not hard to believe that it could be leaking, maybe quite badly, once it's up to temperature.

I'm not sure if they arrive like this or if someone's had a go, but it also seems that something like a Dremel with a flap wheel has been used in an attempt at porting. There's lots of clearly hand-cut marks on the inside of the manifolds. It looks like already thin aluminium was taken down to the point where the rubber started to show through, ie bits of this manifold's casting are now paper-thin and it's only the blobby rough-cast outer surface left holding it all together. Patches of rubber on the inside appear to be crumbling, and also whatever cut the aluminium has had a go or two at the rubber as well. Anyway, if someone's had a look inside some brand-new manifolds, I'd appreciate feedback on these comments.

Ah well. Shopping time. In a way it is a result; if this is the problem then it's a pretty straightforward fix.

Bonez

31st January 2020, 05:10

Looks like after the rubber was bonded to the ali manafold there was a bit of protrusion on the inside edge and someone during assembly used a dremel or similar to smooth it out but went a but too far. I've had to grind a spanner as well for some bikes I've owned for a similar purpose. The rubber itself looks perished as well as crumbly at outer edge and they can split with use/age. Could olso have be damaged by someone else on removal/fitment as well.

neels

31st January 2020, 12:35

The nominal torque setting on this fastener is 23.5 Nm; I have no idea how I'm going to set this torque on the rebuild.
If you can swing a spanner, measure it's length and hang a spring balance off the end of it, crude but reasonably effective return to first principles.

OddDuck

2nd February 2020, 20:23

Thanks guys. New manifolds on order. Neels, I'll see about purchasing a spring balance, that's a good trick.

noelh

3rd February 2020, 13:43

You could do up an exact same nut on a bolt with a torque wrench and get a feel for it with a ring spanner, then do your ones up the same, the torque is not going to be super critical on those anyway, I normally only use as torque wrench on head studs and other critical bolts like cam shaft caps, main bearing and connecting rod nuts etc.

Might be of help and simpler, when you are torquing in an awaward situation, if you stop and restart you need 40% more torque to start the nut moving again which is why you torque to a setting and to check, you mark the nut with felt.pen, loosen and retorque.

In this situation where you are just grabbing little parts of the turn each time I think you will find any method of actually measuring torque will be impossible.

While you are in there check your head studs tightness by hand, always seems to be one or two loose ones on every bike I check.

Bonez

3rd February 2020, 17:11

Thanks guys. New manifolds on order. Neels, I'll see about purchasing a spring balance, that's a good trick.If it was me I would've cut the vulcanised tubes off then fit wire reinforced rubber tubing(radiator hosing or similar) to attach the manifold and airbox and suitable hose clamps.

OddDuck

4th February 2020, 21:52

I had a look at your idea Bonez but it isn't a straight or simply thing to do on these. There's a shift between centers on the rubber, from where the throttle bodies sit to where the aluminium manifold begins. Maybe it could be done but honestly I've got my plate full... at this stage I'm happy to wait on new spares. I've already paid for them anyway.

Neels, yes, I should check head nuts. Should be done at every service interval according to the manual.

OddDuck

18th February 2020, 07:04

I finally decided to pressure test the manifolds to check for leakage. This involved turning up a bung with a tyre valve, and drilling two bolt holes into a spare bit of flat plate. The test itself was to pump up to approx 15 psi (1 atm) and submerge in the kitchen sink, then look for air bubbles, similar to finding a pinpoint puncture on a tyre tube. It's not quite a pure test, the proper thing would be to test under vacuum, but I didn't have something that pulled air instead of pushed it so this would have to serve.

There weren't any bubbles, on either manifold. It looks like the rubber's alright after all.

While doing this I finally noticed something that I should have seen much earlier: the O-ring flanges aren't flat. They're bowed, quite badly... a quick bench test with a light nip-up on the bolts and use of a feeler gauge showed a gap in center of 0.2 mm. Further work (not photographed) of placing the manifold back onto the cylinder head and shining a torch inside clearly showed the curved gap between the two. The manifolds will actually rock sideways by a few degrees on the mounting interface. It is definitely not a flat to flat contact. This is only obvious once the O-rings have been removed from the manifolds, though.

The O-ring groove is (by verniers) roughly 2.0mm deep. The old O-rings measured at 2.54mm across the face-to-face part of the circumference, and around 2.7mm across the groove wall area, so it does look like they've been setting with time. I think that if the manifolds end up being pulled to one side or the other during or after installation, it'd be possible to have all of the gap on one side of the interface, doubling it, so it'd be approx 0.4 to 0.5mm. A quick look at the thermal expansion coefficient of EPDM rubber gave a figure of approximately 0.1 parts per thousand, m / mK, which is a positive expansion. This can exert a lot of force. So I think it's possible that the parts of the O-ring nearest the bolts push hard enough to bow the manifold flanges and thus reduce the contact pressure on the O-ring in the middle, perhaps to the point where it opens up.

As to why this happened... either the manifolds were cast this way (possible but unlikely) or the metal has been very slowly distorting over time via cold flow (aka creep). This last is very likely to my mind since the O-rings will assert constant force on the inside of the manifold. It looks like the manifolds are made from diecast aluminium alloy, probably one of the Alum-Zinc alloys, and this stuff is known to have issues with continual flow under strain even at ambient temperature. The manifolds have been loaded up for nearly twenty years straight.

The fix is simple: put a flat plate onto the bench, put some wet-n-dry onto the plate, slowly and carefully flatten the manifold face again. I'll need to take around 0.4mm off, almost all of that at the outer tips of the flange.

OddDuck

20th February 2020, 06:03

Right, inlet manifolds flattened and refitted, with new O-rings. The alloy proved to be quite soft and it didn't take much time on the wet'n'dry to sort out the flange's curve.

I took the bike for a brief test ride last night and this looks like it's sorted out most of the problem. Experience has shown that this bike responds well to regular use (keeping injector nozzles cleaned out?) so at this stage the plan is to just ride it for a couple of weeks and see how this goes.

noelh

20th February 2020, 16:41

Well done enjoy it for a couple of weeks and let us know how it goes.

On another note, I have been tracking my fuel economy and it is working out at 19 km/l ridden hard and 21km/l when ridden softly or longer trips, that means u can get 430 kms out of a 22.7l tank.

I have not been brave enough to run it that far but the other day at 360kms I still had over 4 l in the tank when I refilled it.

The rated consumption is 16.2 km/l

Interested in what you and others are getting.

Cheers
Noel

Bonez

20th February 2020, 17:28

That's damn good going Noel. How long have you had the bike?

noelh

21st February 2020, 20:40

Hi thanks, I have had it 2 years now, been right through it and added a rebuilt Ohlins to the rear. Good move.
Recently put MBP valve closer shim retainers in it,3000 km so far, going to check clearance shortly and will let you guys know if they are worth the $125 US$

Bonez

22nd February 2020, 05:23

Nice. Looking fwd to your feedback.

OddDuck

23rd February 2020, 19:54

Well, it looks like I wasn't correct about the inlet manifold flanges. The bike's test ride showed improvement but not a fix. I took the bike home and got the throttle bodies out and onto the bench, to go looking for vacuum leaks.

While doing this I noticed that I'd managed to fold and nearly guillotine one of the injector O-rings. These really want grease or similar on reassembly, they roll very easily if they grip on the outside while being installed. However I don't think that this was the problem.

I got diverted briefly by filing off the last remainder of the mould flash lines on the throttle bodies where they connect to the manifolds. Rubber doesn't fold perfectly into the 90 degree valleys either side of a raised ridge like this, even if it's a small feature - a smooth surface is better, even filing by hand. There was dirt at the root of the mould flash line, indicating air movement. These would be pinhole air leaks though.

The greasy dirt around both throttle body return springs finally convinced me to have a look at the shaft seals, as the last remaining place for a significant vacuum leak. The first step was to remove the TPS and get the 8mm push nut off the throttle shaft. There's basically no way to do this without destroying it - I cut both sides of the diameter with a Dremel and broke it away, after failing to lift it by prying with a screwdriver.

OddDuck

23rd February 2020, 20:03

The next step was to remove the throttle butterflies. I had to be careful about cleaning filings up before allowing the throttles to close again - rags, cotton buds, compressed air, and a magnetic pick up tool were used. The photos do most of the talking but something needs to be said about the photo of the throttle butterfly: it was installed on an angle. It'd be quite difficult to keep it straight, the way it's designed.

OddDuck

23rd February 2020, 20:32

The throttle shaft seals look like they are the issue after all. There's a lot of dirt underneath them and in the shaft's plain bearing - cotton buds used for swabbing came out filthy - and the seals themselves are borderline loose. They're barely holding themselves in place. The outer diameter of these seals is also a cup design, similar to the inner lip, and is tapered. The seal to housing interface is really only on the outer edge.

One of the four seals appears to have been cut by the throttle shaft. I can't be sure if this was during work today or during installation. A close look at the throttle shafts showed that they're covered in sharp 90 degree edges which will pass over the seal during installation, and the cut made for installing the throttle butterfly has left positively raked knife-edges on one side of the slot.

Replacing the seals may be a problem. Apparently they're an unusual mix of sizes - 8mm inner diameter, 0.150" high, 0.450" OD (or thereabouts). Note that 5/16" is very close to 8mm, though, clocking in at roughly 7.93mm. Spare seals aren't available from Ducati. Total replacement of the entire throttle body is called for instead, which at Euro 740 isn't exactly free... CA Cycleworks made up some aftermarket replacements, see:

http://ca-cycleworks.com/t-seal.html

They look good but they're ex USA and they're also not reinforced. I think it may be possible to fit SKF 3044 grease seals as replacements, if the throttle bodies are modified slightly via a piloted 12mm counterbore and a drill press. The 3044s have the advantage of a metal ring holding the outer diameter. They'll press into place and then stay there. I'll have to check compatibility with petrol though.

OddDuck

29th February 2020, 19:58

Further work... I tested the free play in the throttle shafts via dial gauge and stand, with the throttle body clamped in the bench vise. All four bushings came in at between 0.90 and 0.80 mm. I've spent a bit of time looking at options.

The bushings themselves are split, steel-based cylinders with bronze plating topped with a layer of sintered lead and PTFE. These have some commonly accepted brand names, like Ezi-Glide, Glacier, etc, but they're manufactured by a lot of companies these days. They're intended for low / no lubrication operation, which in a petrol soaked environment, makes a lot of sense. From what I've read, petrol does have some lubricating ability, but it's thin stuff, very low viscosity, and needs close running tolerances to carry any real loading.

A comment on a forum concerning throttle shafts has stayed with me: if it feels loose, it is loose. These throttle shafts feel loose. Unfortunately I think I'm stuck with it. The shafts came in on the micrometer at 7.95 mm - so that's 0.05 right there - and the bushings are designed with a positive clearance of 0.30 mm as a brand new item. That's from checking the bushing's stated tolerance class and then looking up the ISO tables. Even if I can find the exact size (10 OD, 8 ID, 8 long), using a tap or an Ezi-Out to pull the old bushes and some sort of push tool to install new bushings won't really sort out the throttle shaft play. All that will happen is that I'll lose another week or two of riding time.

The real way to do it is to install double-sealed ball bearings. This would reduce free play to almost zero, which adding another layer or two of seals. There isn't enough wall thickness on the housings though. The absolute smallest bearings I could find were 8 ID, 12 OD, 3 thick, unsealed, which would have to be installed in a throttle housing which has a 15mm diameter post for mounting the throttle shaft. That'd leave 1.5mm wall thickness of zinc-aluminium alloy. Also, the bearings were intended for ultra light duty - benchtop chart recorders and similar - and I had doubts about their ability in a rough environment.

The last point is that this throttle assembly uses a spring return. There's no positive close cable. Maybe throttle shafts that are slightly loose is actually a safe choice here. So in the end I've left the stock bushings in place and simply changed the seals.

The seals: I'd found an option online which featured a steel cup body and a spring on the inner lip, unlike the original all-rubber seals. Proper construction. Good... they were 12mm OD, slightly larger than the original 11.5-ish imperial size. I would have to bore out the seal housing, on center and reasonably in-line, to fit these.

After some attempts with a drill press and then a lathe, both foiled by lack of tooling and difficulty holding the throttle body securely, I settled on making a one-off cutting tool and using a valve seat cutter guide to mount it on. The original throttle shaft bushings provided the guides. Proper tools are available but expensive since it's not quite a standard metric cap screw size. What's needed is a 12mm counterbore, an 8mm guide pin, and the relevant shank, all within the same system. Trade Tools offer the Ifanger system. I've worked with these before and the quality is outstanding but that's reflected in the price... at least $220 for one 3-part tool to cut four holes. Not really worth it for a one-off job. I lathed a bit of mild steel down to OD size, drilled and then reamed the interior, and cut holesaw-style teeth with a hand file. This worked, slowly, with a few re-sharpens needed along the way. I started cutting by hand but quickly found that fixing the cutter in the vise and turning the throttle body on top worked better.

OddDuck

29th February 2020, 20:13

The seals pushed into place by hand, basically a very light push fit, but I could feel the rubber engage properly. They're a lot more secure than the old seals were.

The butterfly screws are worth mentioning as well. They're not standard fasteners... for this duty a very soft steel fastener, cad-plated, low profile high-torque head (ie Torx), is best. They're not easy to source, does anyone know a place?

I tried using some standard M4 BZP cap screws. Didn't work. Either they were grade 8.8 or 12.9 but they were too hard to mushroom the tail ends of the threads after installation. That's got to be done. If these come off, they get sucked into the engine. Less obviously, if they come loose, the butterfly plates can shift. The butterfly can then jam at some partial throttle position.

In the end I re-used the original screws. Setting into place was done by doing them up tight (by feel) and then centerpunching the rear of the screw, with the screw head directly supported on a suitable mechanic's socket. No loading was put through the throttle shaft or throttle body. The centerpunching was done in twos,one top, one bottom. This was intended to out-of-round the very end of the screw thread, from a circle into a figure 8, so that it locks into place on the throttle shaft's curved rear face. It's maybe a bit dicey - I've got just one thread clear of the shaft - but since I'm trying to lock within a fraction of a turn then perhaps this is enough.

There were some fun and games getting springs, limit plates etc all back together but the throttle bodies are reassembled now.

OddDuck

5th March 2020, 21:03

Well... nope. The throttle body seals did make a slight difference but wasn't the main problem, my best theory is that the rough running is still a vacuum leak from the rubber boots moulded onto the inlet manifolds.

As to why they passed the pressure test but have failed (as far as I can tell) by real world riding... I think it's thermal expansion between cylinders. The engine is actually alright when starting at cold. Two L-twin cylinders are connected to a banked pair of throttle bodies. As the engine warms up, the cylinders expand and lengthen, the distance between the two inlet manifolds increases, putting a very slight linear strain plus even slighter twist onto the throttle pair. The movement isn't much. Aluminium has a thermal coefficient of linear expansion of 17 parts per million per degree Celsius. The difference between cold and normal running is just 70 C minus 20 C, ie 50 C. The path length between the two manifold throats, center to center, at the cylinder head flange, is approximately 200 mm.

This means a movement of just 0.25mm, roughly, but the rubber part of the manifold is very short. The rubber is definitely not 100% minty fresh and super flexy any more. Plus it may have been messed with by someone trying to do some porting. The pressure test was carried out with the manifolds separate from each other and the engine, so they weren't under this sideways strain, and so the test would not have shown this failure mode. So at this stage, I'll get the replacements in and simply try changing the manifolds.

And why this hasn't already happened... maybe this is worth going through for anyone else regularly ordering parts through Stein Dinse. They're great guys but there's a gotcha to watch out for: everything I've ordered over the last couple of months isn't in three separate orders, as I've placed orders, and supplied in three boxes like we'd do here. As far as the guys at SD are concerned it's all my current order, ie ONE ORDER. So if there's one part waiting to be supplied, and I've ticked the box marked Send Only When Complete, well, everything from this week's order gets forcibly linked back to an order from five weeks ago. If I then place another recent order which has another time wait on a part, that restarts the clock and now everything waits on this new part, even if all the bits from the first time around have finally turned up. In short the delays could go on for quite some time. To be fair they are very clear about warning that delays can happen if you click that Only Send Complete button.

This may be cultural, maybe this is a Germanic thing, maybe this is something that's just a normal part of the motor parts trade globally and I just haven't seen someone else do this yet... anyway after a phone call tonight and a chat, they'll send through a message with confirmation and revised payment and I can get the bits I need on their way. Ah well. One to remember for next time.

pete376403

6th March 2020, 20:13

Oil of wintergreen can soften age-hardened rubber. I tried it with the airbox-to-carb rubbers of the gs1100. Worked pretty ok

Bonez

7th March 2020, 05:38

Oil of wintergreen can soften age-hardened rubber. I tried it with the airbox-to-carb rubbers of the gs1100. Worked pretty ok
So does crc 5.56.

OddDuck

21st March 2020, 18:58

So, the new parts arrived from Stein Dinse earlier in the week. I took a couple of evenings and changed out in the inlet manifolds.

The first two photos show one of the old manifolds next to one of the new. The major difference between them is the rubber: the new one features rubber coating the entire inner surface. The seal between manifold and cylinder head is also now integral, instead of a separate O-ring.

Test riding has shown a marked improvement (in both rough running and overheating) but not a complete fix. Some reading has told me that poor valve clearances can give a vacuum leak; testing at the last service showed that the clearances are right on the edge for opening shims and slightly over for closing. I've already seen that the bike has the OEM half-circle wire retainers, and I'd be amazed if they've been replaced since new. They're notorious for getting hammered flat over time and having clearances open up. I've placed an order for the MBP retainers, so once they're here it'll be worth checking and then setting valve clearances finely and also re-balancing the throttles.

I've taken a hacksaw to the old manifolds and gone looking for the reason that they failed. There really isn't anything obvious. The rubber is still mostly bonded (it isn't on the inner or outer circular flat surfaces), and although it seems to have been disintegrating a bit on the inside, doesn't have clear pinholes or cracks. There's nothing wrong with the aluminium. What I'd taken for possible cracks looks instead like fold lines in the original casting. There is a patch where the casting was porous, but the gaps have been filled with rubber under pressure and sealed as well as any other part of the manifold. If a roughing tool has been used, it hasn't thinned the aluminium walls to the point of failure.

I think the reason for failure is probably thermal expansion differential between rubber boot and aluminium body. Hard rubber has an expansion of around 80 parts per million per degree C, while aluminium will expand by 21 to 24. Since the rubber is bonded to the aluminium instead of clamped, sooner or later some part of the circumference will open up enough to let air in. For twenty years old they're not bad, but this design is guaranteed to fail by this mechanism sooner or later. Failure will happen gradually, too, so there won't be clear warning signs once it starts.

noelh

22nd March 2020, 12:51

Hi Thanks for the update

I put the MBP retainers in my ST2 about 5000 km ago, havent checked the clearances yet but likely i will have the time in the next few weeks given as work isn't looking like happening much in the near future.

I got my closers down to zero or basically zero, once you get below 1.5 thou it really doesn't become measurable but with the belt off you can spin the cam and also rotate the closer until you get no binding, you can feel the binding easily and in reality you are only doing 4 closers on a 2v so can take your time.
I treat anything less than 1.5 thou and no binding as basically zero.

I have a sheet of glass with 400grit black wet and dry that i use with WD40 for doing shims, it works great, you could use a coarser paper but i prefer the fine paper and a little more time. Be sure to wash the grit off the shim with brakeclean twice before remeasuring and also before putting back in the engine.

I set the openers to around the minimum clearance but never less than minimum on an opener.(Closers gaps get BIGGER with heat, Openers get SMALLER)

I have done another set of clerances on a 1098 also fitted with MBP retainers and they really make the job easier, they dont stick in the valves like half rings and you dont have to figure out which is the right way up (removed half rings have a tiny wear gap where they tap the shim and need to be put back in the same way)

Just make sure you plug the oil drain holes in the head, those corded ear plugs work wonders, the cord makes sure you cannot leave them in the motor.

My IDLE is much better, thats the only noticable differerence, when i am riding in 50k areas. Maybe a bit less rattle but hard to tell with a dry clutch

Let me know if you need 2V shims. I have a MBP kit here.

Noel

OddDuck

22nd March 2020, 18:11

Hi Noelh,

Thanks for the offer on the shims - we'll see how things are once the retainers get here. I'm hoping that the problem is the half-rings, not the current shims, but possibly they've been wearing or getting hammered too.

What you describe is pretty much exactly what I did for the 900SS when I fitted the MBP collets. The collets are everything you say they are. The great thing about the belt system is that it is pretty easy to take the belts off and try camshafts by hand; there can be a very fine line on closer shims, as you say. Good point about closers opening up when engines warm up - the closing clearances are definitely bigger than 1.5 thou cold and yep that could be vacuum leak right there, too.

I changed out the ignition and fuel pump relays today as well but haven't test ridden yet.

OddDuck

1st April 2020, 11:01

I've swapped the MBP collets in (post, ex USA, got here in a week. Impressive). Re-test on clearances shows that opener shims are fine, possibly even a bit on the tight side, but closers have all opened up.

I'd guess that wear on the valve seat and inner valve face has matched wear on the opening shims, rocker arms, pivot arms, and camshaft. The wear patterns have compensated for each other.

This has happened in reverse on the closing shims, the wear has added together, so things have opened up. It's not much: as far as I can tell, it's just 0.002" at the most... but I'm seeing closer clearances of 0.004". Fiddly re-shimming is now necessary.

This time around, instead of locking forceps, I tried using rope fed into the cylinder and a deliberately closed piston to keep valves high. This took a few minutes to set up (and the rope has to be scrupulously clean) but worked very well. Pro mechanics use a threaded fitting and compressed air. Both methods have a massive advantage over the forceps: it's possible to push the closer arm down right to the valve stem seal, making it much easier to remove or fit collets to the valve stem. The rope is also intrinsically safe against a valve dropping into the cylinder.

I took a set of close-up photos of the old half-rings, for interest's sake. Damage on both sides of the half-rings is visible. There's a flat on the side resting on the closer shim, and an angled mark on the valve stem side. Both contact patches are quite small, which wouldn't have helped.

OddDuck

11th April 2020, 12:27

A bit more work...

Valve shimming done. Some older shims and a bit of fit-and-try got the job done. Free turning the camshafts for fine fitting of the closer shims is basically the way to go here; the difference between binding up vs exceeding the nominal 0.001" tolerance is very fine and there seems to be a lot of tolerance error in trying to measure via feeler gauges and then sanding to size. It's better to trial fit with a shim that's a bit on the long side for a clearance tolerance, find out that the camshaft nearly - nearly! - turns, then take an increment of 0.02 mm off the shim and refit and try again. This might have to be done for a couple of cycles before successful fitting.

I had a problem with one of the valves - couldn't get the old closer shim off. There seemed to be some problem with either the head of the valve stem or the inner diameter of the shim. After some puzzling, I settled on using a dab of lapping paste at the top seam and twirling the shim against it. Some cutting and the shim came off. I think the problem was rolling of an edge somewhere but can't be sure which component did it. BTW, a very close look at one of the closer shims showed that there's a very fine recess underneath the curved face for the half-circle retainers. Ducati have clearly provided against old closer shims jamming onto valves via edges forming by mushrooming; the recess won't get hammered wider.

I also checked vacuum balance on the throttle bodies. While doing this I found that the rubber jacket on the new manifolds can have ragged edges projecting underneath the vacuum tap's aluminium crush washers. Everything's done up tight but it can still leak... best to check for this on new manifolds just prior to installation.

The remote reservoir for the rear shock also turned out to need a spot of attention. It had moved forward in its mounting clip and the hose had been stopped by the side rear fairing panel, leading to the hose and the panel getting a flat cut into each. I think this had happened because the clip is steel, the reservoir aluminium; it's metal on metal contact. This would be fine with machined surfaces, but formed surfaces only give small areas of contact. This was shown by the darker zig-zag marks on the reservoir body where some galling had occurred. My lockdown budget fix was a strip of duct tape. I'm hoping that this will fill enough gaps between the two, and provide enough grip and resilience, that the movement won't happen again.

Since there was time... I finally got around to replacing the rear indicators. The old ones still work fine but were weathered and also bent on one side. There's an issue with Ducati's design here, it's strong against a push from the front but weak against a push from the back. Of course the indicators stick right out at the corners of the bike. I think some moron on a scooter managed to bump into it pretty hard while parked on the streets in Wellington; I know that I collected the indicator myself in the garage while backing the bike into place one night. Oops. Once it's bent, that's it. The plastic doesn't straighten again.

It's a pretty straightforward job but if the indicators are mounted on the pannier rails, a cable pull is necessary. I found that a piece of stripped wire, and a short length of tubing over the front of the wire wrap and new connectors, made the job easy.

OddDuck

9th June 2020, 08:23

The bike's still not quite right. Symptoms are that it starts fine, runs just fine for a bit, then starts getting rough as things warm up. It's especially bad in slow situations like traffic. There's popping on deceleration, also fuel economy seems to have increased. All of this sounds like a lean running condition linked to engine temperature.

I've already been through the intake system looking for air leaks. Valve clearances are good. As far as I can tell, ignition coils, HT leads, spark plug boots and crankshaft pickup sensor are all fine - I tested with a timing lamp and although I couldn't find timing marks on the flywheel, the bike was setting the lamp off consistently.

The last thing to look at was fuelling. The ST2's fuel injection system is the alpha-N type: it doesn't use an O2 sensor and exhaust gas feedback control. Instead it measures air temperature, engine temperature, crankshaft position, crankshaft speed, and throttle position, then it determines injector timing and duration from the map stored in the bike's computer. Injectors are opened and closed, fuel is dosed, and the bike runs.

Fuelling is done by positive displacement, non-return high pressure fuel pump, supplied to a rail linked to both injectors, and returned back to the fuel tank where it passes through a pressure regulator before flowing through a degasser and returning to the main body of petrol in the tank.

Fuel pressure is assumed to be constant in this injection scheme. So is fuel viscosity, there isn't a temperature sensor in the tank or fuel rail. The fuel pressure regulator is simply a valve held shut by a spring, sealed with a diaphragm. Springs compress and shorten under constant loading over time - look at suspension on old cars, for example. The bike's 20 years old and the spring in the regulator has been under compression since the factory. Viscosity may be a factor. I can't be sure yet but intuitively it follows that fluid being pushed through a narrow aperture (like a regulator valve, or an injector) will flow easier if it's less viscous. That could go either way. The regulator could be opening easier if the fuel's warm, and thus decreasing rail pressure, or warm fuel could be going through the injectors easier and compensating for this or even going the other way and making the bike run rich. Ducati's have a reputation for running roughly once in traffic. Perhaps fuel lines getting hot is a part of this but further testing would be needed.

I obtained a cheap gauge and a brass T-joint, and put these in line with the rail. The photos show the setup and two of the results - primed and then running. Primed is sitting below the nominal 3 bar, engine running above - but that's inlet manifold vacuum coupling through to the fuel rail and increasing the apparent pressure. There was noticeable 'bounce' in the needle while running, rail pressure drops by a few psi every time an injector fires.

The result appears to be simple enough: the pressure regulator is going soft with time and should be replaced. I've got the part on order, it's a fairly simple swap and easy enough to see if this sorts things out.

sidecar bob

9th June 2020, 09:05

I haven't been back over the thread to fully check, but you're going to replace the fuel pressure regulator before you check the resistance of the temp sensor at a range of temperatures & match them to specifications?
And forget your fuel viscosity theory, quite apart from the fact that petrol has a consistent viscosity, fuel is flowing hard out through the fuel lines, past the injectors & back to the tank at a rate of maybe ten litres per minute, this means that fresh cold fuel is flowing through the lines constantly, keeping the fuel & lines cool, this is the intention of the constant flow system. Some of your theories & how you arrive at them are interesting bordering on bizzare, often excessively scientific and overly focused on non the issues within the problem.
There are major holes in your diagnostic processes & based on working on various EFI systems for a job since their introduction, and at least a decade before they were acceptable on motorcycles, I doubt a pressure regulator is going to fix your problem.
You may be able to talk yourself into believing it's running a bit differently with a new one, but the problem will still be present.
This thread demonstrates that you like buying new parts, if little else.
Sorry to be harsh, but if you had to convince a skeptical client that all these bits were needed you would have a different take on diagnostics.
There is very little about your fuel system that is unique & nothing that the automotive world hasn't been using in series production for the best part of 40 years.
If it was me, I'd be replacing the rear temp sensor before anything else on that system after testing it in a kettle with an ohms meter, or you could simply use the "buy it and try it " method favored by so many.
Having said all that its really me thats got it wrong.
At no point are you asking for advice, you are simply sharing your misguided adventures.

OddDuck

9th June 2020, 19:25

Ouch. Well I guess I just got told, big time.

Bob, the rear temperature sensor has already been replaced... they both have. Anyway if you have a temperature specification chart, believe me, I am very interested... I simply couldn't find anything online beyond a resistance at room temperature and of course Ducati are unlikely to hand out diagnostic information for free.

As to your criticisms, well... yeah. Fair enough. Point by point...

Loads of my writing is wild conjecture. If I'm doing that, I try to say so, that I'm guessing, that I'm not certain. I go there because I'm interested. Almost all of the time, what I find out is that existing practice is like it is for very good reasons... but until I go through those reasons, I don't know them.

This is a hobby. I'm not in the trade (thank fuck) and I'm free to be as eccentric an amateur as I want to be. I don't have to operate under the brutal paradigm of get it fixed right now for the lowest price possible, and you're right, if I did I'd pick up some common sense in one hell of a hurry.

Asking for help: Yep. The usual story with these forums is: want to ride, bike's down, need help. Again, fair enough, that's the usual format. I'm interested in, why is the bike down? What's gone wrong? Do we need to change the bike, so this doesn't happen again? It's just a different point of view.

Viscosity of petrol: quite frankly I would be amazed if petrol had a truly constant viscosity with temperature. The same for density, it'll expand and contract like an oil does. The question is, would this be enough of an effect to be significant over the operating temperature range of fuel in lines or fuel in a tank? Probably not (your direct experience is being listened to btw) but (BUT) I know that the problem I am chasing gets worse if the bike warms up. It didn't used to do this. The fuel lines haven't been shifted in location between running OK and having the issue. So yes, you are right, this is off-the-mark conjecture, I'm chasing a ghost and hot fuel lines might be an issue to a perfectionist but almost certainly aren't the issue here. Since we're on the topic, have a look at this paper: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/nbstechnologic/nbstechnologicpaperT125.pdf it's seriously vintage but it's still about gasoline.

Changing out the fuel pressure regulator: it's 20 years old, I know that it's not making 3 bar any more, it's given good service but we're now well past the expected lifetime of the bike. Is it really a surprise that it might be on the way out? And wasn't the entire post based around the fact that I took a diagnostic measurement, tried to understand what it meant, and made a decision based on that, instead of a guess and shoot game where I replaced parts until the problem went away?

Finally... yeah I really can't argue with you concerning 'misguided adventures', quite honestly that is true. I really need to get myself out of this situation of old bikes constantly breaking down and three to six months of trying to work out what has gone wrong this time.

sidecar bob

9th June 2020, 19:57

Did you pinch off the return line with pliers when you did the fuel pressure test to see if the pump was capable of a momentary spike reading of 80psi plus?
The regulator can only regulate downwards from pump pressure, so if the pump is on it's way out, replacing the regulator wont bring the pressure up.
I would have replaced over 100 pumps to one regulator on average. It's not the regulator that's "making" 3 bar, it's the pump for a start.
The main reason regulators were replaced is because the diaphragm split & the engine started sipping fuel through the vacuum hose, causing a rich scenario & a rough idle.
I assume you have run it with the vac tube off to see if it drips fuel out of there?
If it's a mixture issue you can't get on top of any other way, you can install a variable resistor in the temp sensor loom & dial it progressively over a few runs to obtain the best running.
Once you are happy with how it runs measure the resistance you have it dialed to, & buy the corresponding resistor from Jaycar & install it in the circuit.
This was a standard way to get early L Jet 6 cyl Jaguar's to run properly.
I've seen plenty of thirty plus year old pressure regulators, with near 400,000km on them operate faultlessly, failure is more the exception than the rule.
I see your paper on the viscosity of gasoline, which I was fairly sure would be thrown at me for mentioning that viscosity was constant.
But the fact is, that you don't go to a petrol station on a cold day & It takes longer to fill the car.
It comes back to that chasing of non issues I mentioned earlier, red herrings if you will, so regardless of some scientific paper that looks to be 100 years old, let's pretend for the purpose of an expedient diagnosis of the problem in hand, that the fuel is a relative constant.
I'm sure I could also find papers to prove that their is little in common with petrol produced in 1919 & petrol produced today, and I can assure you that you will not find a fix of any type in that paper to remedy the fault with your motorcycle, apart from to prove me wrong on a mute point.
Re the temp sensor, work on 360 ohms at 85 degrees or thereabouts, it's not an exact figure you are after, just ballpark 350-400 ohms.
I hope that helps. I'm mainly posting out of the frustration of watching you chasing your tail & wasting money on something relatively simple.

OddDuck

9th June 2020, 20:30

Did you pinch off the return line with pliers when you did the fuel pressure test to see if the pump was capable of a spike reading of 80psi plus?
The regulator can only regulate downwards from pump pressure, so if the pump is on it's way out, replacing the regulator wont bring the pressure up.
I would have replaced over 100 pumps to one regulator on average.
From memory the temp sensor should be around 360 ohms at 85 degrees, or thereabouts.
If it's a mixture issue you can't get on top of any other way, you can install a variable resistor in the temp sensor loom & dial it progressively over a few runs to obtain the best running.
Once you are happy with how it runs measure the resistance you have it dialed to, & buy the corresponding resistor from Jaycar & install it in the circuit.
This was a standard way to get early injected 6 cyl Jaguar's to run properly.
I've seen plenty of thirty plus year old pressure regulators, with near 400,000km on them operate faultlessly, failure is more the exception than the rule.
I see your paper on the viscosity of gasoline, which I was sure would be thrown at me for mentioning that viscosity was constant.
But the fact is, that you don't go to a petrol station on a cold day & I takes longer to fill the car.
It comes back to that chasing of non issues I mentioned earlier, red herrings if you will, so regardless of some scientific paper that looks to be 100 years old, let's pretend for the purpose of an expedient diagnosis of the problem in hand, that the fuel is a relative constant.

OK, that's direct experience talking. Right, pinch test and check the fuel pump it is, particularly with that ratio of pump to regulator failure. Thanks for that, that's very useful.

Everything I've read about these bikes says that the stock map is set lean, for compliance issues. It's why I'm being fussy about this stuff; I get the impression that as stock it's right on the edge of reliability and rideability, and it wouldn't take much going wrong in terms of leaning the mixture out further to cause problems.

sidecar bob

10th June 2020, 08:50

OK, that's direct experience talking. Right, pinch test and check the fuel pump it is, particularly with that ratio of pump to regulator failure. Thanks for that, that's very useful.

Everything I've read about these bikes says that the stock map is set lean, for compliance issues. It's why I'm being fussy about this stuff; I get the impression that as stock it's right on the edge of reliability and rideability, and it wouldn't take much going wrong in terms of leaning the mixture out further to cause problems.

Nearly everything is on the edge regards fuel mixture, the factory fuel maps are usually great, just low.
A good way of overcoming an overall low map is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Seeing as injection volume is a pressure over time calculation, if you are chasing a lean situation, the first thing you need to work out, is the fuel pressure too low, or is the injector open time too short.
It takes a couple of minutes to work out if its low pressure, and if the pressure is ok, then it must come back to insufficent injector dwell, or time spent open, there is no third option. Test for the reverse scenario in a rich situation.
You have now got a foot firmly in one camp or the other & diagnosis and repair can go down an orderly path from that point.
It's fairly obvious what to do if the pump is unable to create sufficient pressure created by the restriction of the regulator.
If the pressure is sufficient, then it's got to be injector dwell. That's when you check sensor outputs against either book specs, or a vehicle of the same type that runs well.
During my time as a garage owner, occasionally I would test & record sensor outputs of vehicles that were only in for servicing that ran particularly well, & record them in a very thick folder called "BMW Technical data Vol 1" as apart from the fact that I was doing that prior to the diagnostic machines existing & the internet being a thing, google does not replace personal experience & time on the job, as it's full of enthusiastic amateurs that think owning one BMW E30 for six months, having an opinion & an internet connection makes them a world authority on the topic of everything related to them.
Anyway, back to the fuel pressure regulator, it's another option to installing a resistor in the temp circuit & results are comparable, it just depends on what route you want to go. Obviously the ajustable regulator increases fuel pressure & the resistor increases injector open time. Use one or the other, but never both at once.
Personally, for a racing application, I'd probably go pressure regulator & go the resistor route for a road vehicle. I don't really know why I think that way, it's just instinctive. Actually, thinking about that one, it's because a regulator can be quickly adjusted to compensate for a change in racing conditions, which is difficult with the resistor system & adjustment is not likely to be required on a street vehicle. It would also seem normal to have a permanently installed fuel pressure gauge on a race machine.
Packaging of the resistor is near invisible compared to an adjustable regulator & drongos that think more is better are more tempted to mess with an adjustable regulator willy nilly. Using a resistor is also the most cost effective option, even when you buy an adjustable reostat first to dial it in.
The last sidecar I raced went from 167HP to 214 with nothing more than a pressure regulator and some dyno runs, running stock ECU.
We didn't measure fuel economy, as that wasn't what we were chasing, although the lambda on the dyno said the mixture was right in the window.
I also installed adjustable pressure regulators to a number of Cosworth Sierra's with standard ECU & the results were astonishing, and probably for higher horsepower expectations the regulator may be a better option.
It's very difficult to find a dyno guy that will help you with that kind of system on a bike, as most are in the business of selling you a Power Commander or such & look down their nose at you as some kind of boy from the bush, when you're using cost effective solutions that are at least the equivalent of their product, also possibly because while they can programme a fuel map, they don't understand your methods & write you off as an idiot.
That's why I suggested a bit of real world riding over a few days to set it up.
I'd hate to be the guy that sent you down a rabbit hole, but if it were my bike I'd be releasing the trapped ponies one way or the other.

noelh

10th June 2020, 13:03

Well thats quite an interesting conversation.

I have cored mufflers on my ST2 so it should be running lean, but looking at plugs and fuel economy (measured before and after the cored pipes went on) nothing changed at all (other than a better sound).
Sure it would benefit from some opening up and at only 84hp could probably use some more HP but i also like that i can get over 400km from a tank when touring so will stick with what i have, reliability is my main concern.

As far as the spare parts goes, I have just brought a new shindagen regulator and electrosport stator, not because there is anything wrong with mine, but just in the interests of reliablity, on a touring machine its often a long long way home even in NZ and i tend to do a lot of obscure back roads on my own with zero cell cover, so maybe i have spent money i didn't have to, but maybe i havent, guess i will never know (unless the new regulator dies.....)

Keep the conversation coming, I am learning a lot just reading

I measure my KM and Litres EVERY time i fill up and rely on that number to tell me if anything changes on the bike, it seems pretty accurate because fuel economy on the ST2 doesn't seem to change regardless if it is hours of gravel, a pootle with the wife on the back or high speed higway, always round 19.2km/l

Regards
Noel

neels

12th June 2020, 22:01

the rear temperature sensor has already been replaced... they both have. Anyway if you have a temperature specification chart, believe me, I am very interested... I simply couldn't find anything online beyond a resistance at room temperature and of course Ducati are unlikely to hand out diagnostic information for free.
I've had a play with the temp sensors on mine, figured a quick and dirty way to work them out was stick a variable resistor on the temp gauge input and graph the results. Short answer is that there are a heap of them available that have very similar characteristics, and the difference is likely to effect the running of the bike bugger all.

The main reason regulators were replaced is because the diaphragm split & the engine started sipping fuel through the vacuum hose, causing a rich scenario & a rough idle.
I assume you have run it with the vac tube off to see if it drips fuel out of there?
Thanks for that, will have to have a look at mine and see if that's the cause of it's apparent running rich at idle and generally being an unrideable pig, currently it's a naked garage queen because I've run out of ideas and can't be arsed.

OddDuck

20th June 2020, 14:18

OK, I've finally got around to running the pinch test as suggested by Sidecar Bob, letting the fuel pump go to maximum pressure. Also, the pressure regulator doesn't appear to have a vacuum hose on this bike - the spigot visible on the underside of the fuel tank has always been bare and there's no provision on the manifolds for permanent connection to a vacuum hose, although they carry vacuum test ports accessible from the flanks.

According to the manual the pump is supposed to pressure release at 5 bar / 75ish psi. This test shot straight past that and made what looks like 100 psi + (at this point my gauge had topped out).

From the manual, verbatim:

The electric pump is volumetric and has rotating lobes, with the motor immersed in the fuel. It is a brush motor energised by permanent magnets. The pump has a non-return valve which prevents emptying of the fuel circuit when the pump is not running. It also has an over-pressure valve which short-circuits the intake when the pressure exceeds 5 Bar. This prevents overheating of the electric motor.

At this point I need the voice of experience, anyone have a comment about this result please?

Neels, what symptoms have you seen and what tests have you made so far?

Bonez

20th June 2020, 14:26

OK, I've finally got around to running the pinch test as suggested by Sidecar Bob, letting the fuel pump go to maximum pressure.

According to the manual the pump is supposed to pressure release at 5 bar / 75ish psi. This test shot straight past that and made what looks like 100 psi + (at this point my gauge had topped out).

From the manual, verbatim:

The electric pump is volumetric and has rotating lobes, with the motor immersed in the fuel. It is a brush motor energised by permanent magnets. The pump has a non-return valve which prevents emptying of the fuel circuit when the pump is not running. It also has an over-pressure valve which short-circuits the intake when the pressure exceeds 5 Bar. This prevents overheating of the electric motor.

At this point I need the voice of experience, anyone have a comment about this result please?

Neels, what symptoms have you seen and what tests have you made so far?Fuel pump is obviously out of step and needs adjusting if possible or replacing. I'm gathering the later.

sidecar bob

20th June 2020, 17:05

Your pump is sweet, it could go to 100psi, but the fact that it far exceeds what the regulator pulls it back to is all that matters in this scenario.
Fit the regulator when it turns up & go from there.
Not completely unusual for the regulator vac tube to be blanked off in some applications.

OddDuck

2nd July 2020, 18:51

New fuel pressure regulator arrived and fitted. Went for ride and significant improvement although not quite 100%... might have something useful for other ST owners though. While changing out rear brake pads (another story) I had the RH muffler off and finally noticed that the swivel joint at the cross was not seating properly.

The swivel's a cylinder-within-a-cylinder several times over labyrinth seal. There's no gasket: it relies on a long path length between close fitting surfaces to function as a gas seal. If it's only pushed halfway home (as mine was) then that'll affect the way it works. I've never cleaned these joints before and they were gunked up with soot. The spring was holding everything together but the joints weren't seating properly.

I cleaned everything up, both sides, with white spirits, rag and paintbrush (the bristles will reach to the bottom of the labyrinth), reassembled and rode. Big improvement in how the bike ran.

After 20 - 30 minutes of riding there's still a very faint remainder of the rough running problem. It's nowhere near as bad as it was but something's still there. I'm inclining towards old ignition coils and HT insulation breakdown (20 y.o. bike, 52,000 km's), but don't know how to test for this. The coil winding resistances test fine btw. Does anyone have any experience checking for HT leaks in these, please?

Bonez

2nd July 2020, 19:04

My goodness only 52,000kms. My'76 CB550 has done 161,000kms on original coils/leads and I've replaced 2 plug caps and it's on points ignition. :)

pete376403

2nd July 2020, 19:37

After 20 - 30 minutes of riding there's still a very faint remainder of the rough running problem. It's nowhere near as bad as it was but something's still there. I'm inclining towards old ignition coils and HT insulation breakdown (20 y.o. bike, 52,000 km's), but don't know how to test for this. The coil winding resistances test fine btw. Does anyone have any experience checking for HT leaks in these, please?

Run the engine in a really dark shed (door open of course) you might see something, But simple substitution might be easier, depending on the price of Ducati coils

neels

3rd July 2020, 13:58

Neels, what symptoms have you seen and what tests have you made so far?
Don't know, it's cold out in the garage at the moment.

I'll have to dig out the pressure gauge I've got sitting in a drawer somewhere, and see what pressure there is on the fuel circuit, overpressure to the injectors could explain why it seems to be running very rich at idle.

noelh

4th July 2020, 20:23

Has anyone ever seen an adjustable fue pressure regulator for the ST2, raising the fuel pressure a tad could make a difference to performance with open pipes, just a thought.

sidecar bob

4th July 2020, 21:11

Heres one option you could explore.
http://www.mattlewisracing.co.uk/product.php/1541/0/fuel_pressure_regulator___matt_lewis_racing
The part number is WFR505, you can search up a different supplier maybe.
Happy to assist you with set up advice by PM.

OddDuck

5th July 2020, 17:39

Thanks Pete - my street is too well lit to do the total dark thing so have tried substitution of new ignition coils. No joy, the bike remains as-is, still the remainder of a nasty vibration after riding for a few minutes.

My thinking is now either:

1) Mains bearings getting loose with time and mileage (I'm really hoping against that) or,

2) Crank position sensor is getting a bit tired and not working 100% any more.

It's an inductive type. The crank position sensor doesn't run on the crankshaft or flywheel, it runs on the half-speed timing gear driving the belts running to the cylinder heads. Initial triggering is via a cut-out spanning two gear teeth, then the sensor counts gear teeth to establish crankshaft position after that.

I haven't yet checked the air gap, specified as 0.6 to 0.8 mm, but this is very unlikely to have changed over time. The Ducati workshop manual doesn't specify coil resistance, I got 660 ohms at the ECU connector but have no new one to compare to or any reliable info from the internet. I have just tried running a timing test using a timing gun and this appeared to show a problem: couldn't find the timing marks either at idle or revving. Unfortunately it's difficult to read these (or not) clearly, after a few seconds of operation there is a steady flow of engine oil over the inside of the timing window glass and it starts becoming very difficult to see the flywheel clearly.

The timing gun is suspect. It's a cheapie:

https://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/p/toolpro-toolpro-inductive-xenon-timing-light/9702.html

Works OK at idle and low revs but has a habit of dropping out once the engine is revved a bit.

So, question for everyone: can these sensors get a bit sick and become walking wounded? Or when they go, they go and that's it, the engine won't run at all? Or is my testing at fault here and there's nothing proved wrong with the sensor yet?

Neels, I've had a think about your bike's running rich at idle problem and the only idea I've got is blocked air bypass jets in the throttle bodies. These are only dominant at closed throttle, ie idle. There's a lot of other things it might be of course but if memory serves it should be possible to completely remove the bypass screws from either side and clean the needle valve seat area via cotton bud and white spirits, without taking anything else apart except for removing fairings. Doing this might mean having to go through the set-up procedure on the throttle bodies though.