20 50 mineral oil

[gravediggerNZ]

curently running 20/50 motul mineral in my 2001 guzzi jackal. only got 2 litres,need 3, can i run any good quality 20/50 mineral oil please?

[gravediggerNZ]

curently running 20/50 motul mineral in my 2001 guzzi jackal. only got 2 litres,need 3, can i run any good quality 20/50 mineral oil please?
for clarification. all the shops are out of any 20/50 bike oil

[Woodman]

curently running 20/50 motul mineral in my 2001 guzzi jackal. only got 2 litres,need 3, can i run any good quality 20/50 mineral oil please?

Yes..............

[Akzle]

real men use single grade semi-synth

[gravediggerNZ]

real men use single grade semi-synth
your taking the piss?
real men understand the internals of their bike. this bike has a fibre bearing case on a INTERNAL shaFT( fuk knows why, its was discountinued 2004) that gets brittle with semi and synthetic oils. and is a major stripdown to replace.

[gravediggerNZ]

Yes..............
i thought so to. being dry clutch and seperate gearbox oil..

[AllanB]

Supercheap Auto local?


Try this one

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/Product/Penrite-MC-4-Motorcycle-Oil-20W-50-4-Litre/519021

[Akzle]

your taking the piss?
.

:weird:

you must be new here...

[Old Steve]

First, I assume you mean an SAE 20W-50. The SAE developed the viscosity grade system for engine oils and as a courtesy the initials SAE are used to denote an engine oil or automotive gear oil viscosity grade. Then the viscosity grade is broken in two, the first grade has a W after it (0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W and 25W), this is the "Winter" grade or low temperature viscosity of the oil. The second grade has no alphabetical identification, this is the 'non-winter' grade, the high temperature viscosity, and comes in SAE 8, 12, 16, 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 grades. So, any multigrade engine oil is identified as an SAE, winter grade with a 'W', hyphen, non-winter grade, ie. SAE 20W-50.

Secondly, any oil is identified by two characteristics, it's viscosity and it's performance specification. There are low performance SAE 20W-50 oils I would only use to oil the hinges on a farm gate. Look on the oil pack label for an identifier such as API SL, SM or SN. The American Petroleum Institute (API) has developed performance classifications for engine and automotive gear oils. The API S series is for Service station oils, for Spark ignition engines, for petrol engines (the C series is for Commercial oils, Compression ignition engines, diesel engines). The second letter indicates the performance of the oil, API SA was just straight oil used in the likes of the Model T, SN is the latest classification for modern cars with sophisticated exhaust treatment equipment. For best engine protection, look for an API SL, SM or SN engine oil. See what I did there as well, I included the letters 'API" as a mark of respect for the organisation which developed This engine oil classification system. A higher performance engine oil can be retroactively used in engines calling for a lower performance oil.

Actually Moto Guzzi recommended an API SG, CCMC G-4, SAE 10W-40 engine oil for the Jackal. CCMC was the organisation previous to the Association des Constructeurs Europeens d'Automobiles (ACEA, European Automobile Manufacturers' Association). So an API SL, SM or SN SAE 10W-40 engine oil would be suitable for top up.

There is also a Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation (JASO) classification that is commonly found on motorbike engine oils, JASO MA and MA-2 indicate the oil is not friction modified and is suitable for use in transmissions which share the engine oil and have wet clutches. The Jackal has a separate transmission and a dry clutch, so no need to worry about this. Incidentally, JASO MA and MA-2 are specifications that indicate that something (friction modification) is missing from the oil.

[gravediggerNZ]

thanks old steve. its deffinantly 20w50 in my manual for my 2001 jackal. ive gone with the penrite above .it has a 1200 ppm zinc content which is good and was great value today a repco. not that price is a point, its in and ill be out on it again tomorrow. i have seen desiel oil used as its a much higher qualityy oil. your knwledge is appreciatted. also a z418 filter from supercheap is a direct fit. so noore waiting for filters. I do need sump and tppet gaskets tho next.

[nzspokes]

First, I assume you mean an SAE 20W-50. The SAE developed the viscosity grade system for engine oils and as a courtesy the initials SAE are used to denote an engine oil or automotive gear oil viscosity grade. Then the viscosity grade is broken in two, the first grade has a W after it (0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W and 25W), this is the "Winter" grade or low temperature viscosity of the oil. The second grade has no alphabetical identification, this is the 'non-winter' grade, the high temperature viscosity, and comes in SAE 8, 12, 16, 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 grades. So, any multigrade engine oil is identified as an SAE, winter grade with a 'W', hyphen, non-winter grade, ie. SAE 20W-50.

Secondly, any oil is identified by two characteristics, it's viscosity and it's performance specification. There are low performance SAE 20W-50 oils I would only use to oil the hinges on a farm gate. Look on the oil pack label for an identifier such as API SL, SM or SN. The American Petroleum Institute (API) has developed performance classifications for engine and automotive gear oils. The API S series is for Service station oils, for Spark ignition engines, for petrol engines (the C series is for Commercial oils, Compression ignition engines, diesel engines). The second letter indicates the performance of the oil, API SA was just straight oil used in the likes of the Model T, SN is the latest classification for modern cars with sophisticated exhaust treatment equipment. For best engine protection, look for an API SL, SM or SN engine oil. See what I did there as well, I included the letters 'API" as a mark of respect for the organisation which developed This engine oil classification system. A higher performance engine oil can be retroactively used in engines calling for a lower performance oil.

Actually Moto Guzzi recommended an API SG, CCMC G-4, SAE 10W-40 engine oil for the Jackal. CCMC was the organisation previous to the Association des Constructeurs Europeens d'Automobiles (ACEA, European Automobile Manufacturers' Association). So an API SL, SM or SN SAE 10W-40 engine oil would be suitable for top up.

There is also a Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation (JASO) classification that is commonly found on motorbike engine oils, JASO MA and MA-2 indicate the oil is not friction modified and is suitable for use in transmissions which share the engine oil and have wet clutches. The Jackal has a separate transmission and a dry clutch, so no need to worry about this. Incidentally, JASO MA and MA-2 are specifications that indicate that something (friction modification) is missing from the oil.Hey Steve, what is zero weight oil about then? Ta

Sent from my M5 Note using Tapatalk

[AllanB]

Hey Steve, what is zero weight oil about then? Ta

Sent from my M5 Note using Tapatalk

It feels like water in the container when you shake it. All about fuel economy and meeting silly American ratings - thin oil means less friction with gives them a better economy rating.

[gravediggerNZ]

hmmm how long is a engine gon last on 0 oil.

[pritch]

The arrival of synthetics has changed the game somewhat. Some synthetics labelled, say 20w 50, would actually perform like 0w 50 but the manufacturers wouldn't put that on the packaging because people would assume - incorrectly - that the oil is too thin.

[pritch]

hmmm how long is a engine gon last on 0 oil.

There was an English engine tuner of bygone days raced a Triumph T100 on SAE 5 which is getting down there. Must've been like sewing machine oil or 3 in 1.

[caspernz]

It feels like water in the container when you shake it. All about fuel economy and meeting silly American ratings - thin oil means less friction with gives them a better economy rating.


hmmm how long is a engine gon last on 0 oil.


The arrival of synthetics has changed the game somewhat. Some synthetics labelled, say 20w 50, would actually perform like 0w 50 but the manufacturers wouldn't put that on the packaging because people would assume - incorrectly - that the oil is too thin.

The chase for fuel economy has resulted in a few interesting side effects in newer vehicles. The engines are designed to be a bit "looser" as in less tension in piston rings, bigger clearances on bearings etc. Add in longer drain intervals, this leads to increased oil consumption, which in days gone by could be used as an indicator the vehicle was due for oil change or even close to needing an engine overhaul. Oh and compared to dinosaur oil from days gone by, the new synthetic stuff indeed runs like water, which makes folks suspicious.

Personally I look at the 3 decades I've been involved in trucking. The oil has gotten thinner in appearance, drain intervals have gone from 10-15 K to 60 K, and top ups between drain intervals have gone from nil to as much as 10 litres over the 60 K interval.

The hard part is keeping up with changes in technology...:laugh::eek::bleh:

[YellowDog]

:weird:

you must be new here...

Still on the nipple :yes:

[pritch]

Internet oil threads can turn into flame wars. The best I have seen was on a Ducati owners site, the main protagonist was named George and he had two seperate sets of letters after his name. His job was specifying lubricants for industrial applications, so he was probably an engineer.

He preferred to talk about Mobil products because it was them with which he was most familiar. He used Mobil because he was known there and if he called about a problem he would immediately be put through to whichever engineers he wished to talk to. He would not necessarily receive that consideration elsewhere.

He told of some marine gearboxes, real works of art, that suddely started going crunch. As the specifier of the lubricant for the gearboxes he was invited to attend the first postmortem with the designers and some worried executives.

When the box was unbolted it was full of grease. Definitely not what was specified. Enquiries lead to the assembly line foreman who said, "We ran out of that runny stuff so we put some decent solid stuff in."

George omitted to mention what happened to the foreman.

Sadly George binned his Ducati at a track day and was hospitalised. He made a reappearance at the site but a short while later his son advised that he had died suddenly.

I never met George but I miss him. From time to time questions arise that he would have enjoyed answering.

[caspernz]

Internet oil threads can turn into flame wars. The best I have seen was on a Ducati owners site, the main protagonist was named George and he had two seperate sets of letters after his name. His job was specifying lubricants for industrial applications, so he was probably an engineer.

He preferred to talk about Mobil products because it was them with which he was most familiar. He used Mobil because he was known there and if he called about a problem he would immediately be put through to whichever engineers he wished to talk to. He would not necessarily receive that consideration elsewhere.

He told of some marine gearboxes, real works of art, that suddely started going crunch. As the specifier of the lubricant for the gearboxes he was invited to attend the first postmortem with the designers and some worried executives.

When the box was unbolted it was full of grease. Definitely not what was specified. Enquiries lead to the assembly line foreman who said, "We ran out of that runny stuff so we put some decent solid stuff in."

George omitted to mention what happened to the foreman.

Sadly George binned his Ducati at a track day and was hospitalised. He made a reappearance at the site but a short while later his son advised that he had died suddenly.

I never met George but I miss him. From time to time questions arise that he would have enjoyed answering.

George sounds like an interesting chap. Not that there's any intent on turning this thread into a battleground.

Specialist lubricants are a mighty technical topic. Place I work at we pump liquid oxygen, nitrogen and argon, into road tankers. All this product is in the roughly -186 C and lower range. Puts quite a task on the bearings and seals in the pumps, not to mention the lubricant. Always interesting to hear the technical chaps debating...:eek5:

[nzspokes]

hmmm how long is a engine gon last on 0 oil.

Brock from Brocks Performance recommends it, says he runs it in all his bikes and finds power.

[caspernz]

Brock from Brocks Performance recommends it, says he runs it in all his bikes and finds power.

Mr Scania does too, it reduces internal friction losses. Lowers fuel burn too, raises oil consumption though. No free lunch it seems :cool:

[Woodman]

Hey Steve, what is zero weight oil about then? Ta

Sent from my M5 Note using Tapatalk

A 0/40 oil is the same viscosity at operating temperature as a 10/40. The two numbers are different scales. Ambient temperature and operating temperature e.g. a "0" is thinner than a "20" when the oil is at ambient temperature. To say a "0/40" weight oil does not give the same protection is ignoring the second scale.

[Flip]

It's a practical way to discribe the way a multigrade oils viscosity behaves as the temperature changes.

For a given 20W40 oil it is saying it behaves like a thin 20 weight oil at low temperature and like a 40 weight at high temperature.

I personally prefer the mixed fleet lubes myself, dual pertol/diesel API clasifications and a good strong zinc anti wear package. I do however use Mobil1 V2 or SYN3 (because it gets very hot) in the HD and Mobil1 5w50 in the Lotus (because it is a race car). Everything else gets Valviline 20W40 SG diesel motor oil.

[pritch]

I do however use Mobil1 V2 or SYN3 (because it gets very hot) in the HD

Mobil 1 V2 cropped up in George's thread. It's perfect in a Harley, or the metric equivalents, that is the intended use. He was adamant that it should not be used in a Ducati (or a KTM or an Aprilia?) 'cause they are a whole 'nother thing.

Mobil 1 0w-40 is my preference for the car, mainly 'cause turbo.

That 0 does not actually mean the oil is thin, it means that it will still pour at freezing or some such.



OK so I went looking, here is a link to the distilled George thread for anyone who is interested: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1912.0

It kicks off by talking about Mobil 1 V2 funny enough.

While looking for that I came across a comment about zinc in oil. Zinc was there acting as lubrication of last resort so to speak, but then manufacturers cut back the amount in oil sold for cars to save money. Car oils may have no zinc now because apparently the zinc creates problems for catalytic converters. The oil sold for use in trucks (which isn't actually diesel oil, that's what the engine runs on) may still have the full amount of zinc. If trucks don't run cats...

[Owl]

so he was probably an engineer.

If I remember correctly, he was a lubrication engineer. It is written somewhere in that Ducati thread.

[pete376403]

Mobil 1 V2 cropped up in George's thread. It's perfect in a Harley, or the metric equivalents, that is the intended use. He was adamant that it should not be used in a Ducati (or a KTM or an Aprilia?) 'cause they are a whole 'nother thing.

Mobil 1 0w-40 is my preference for the car, mainly 'cause turbo.

That 0 does not actually mean the oil is thin, it means that it will still pour at freezing or some such.



OK so I went looking, here is a link to the distilled George thread for anyone who is interested: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1912.0

It kicks off by talking about Mobil 1 V2 funny enough.

While looking for that I came across a comment about zinc in oil. Zinc was there acting as lubrication of last resort so to speak, but then manufacturers cut back the amount in oil sold for cars to save money. Car oils may have no zinc now because apparently the zinc creates problems for catalytic converters. The oil sold for use in trucks (which isn't actually diesel oil, that's what the engine runs on) may still have the full amount of zinc. If trucks don't run cats...

I have bookmarked that thanks. There are so many bullshit oil threads its useful to keep one sane one for reference.

[Old Steve]

Personally I look at the 3 decades I've been involved in trucking. The oil has gotten thinner in appearance, drain intervals have gone from 10-15 K to 60 K, and top ups between drain intervals have gone from nil to as much as 10 litres over the 60 K interval.

Caspernz, have a think back at the specification of diesel fuel three decades ago. It had up to 0.3% (3000 ppm) of sulfur in it. When burnt, sulfur created acidic byproducts which the engine oil detergent had to neutralise. In neutralising the acidic combustion byproducts the engine oil's TBN (Total Base Number, or alkalinity reserve) was used up - it was a sacrificial additive.

Nowdays the level of sulfur in diesel is 10 ppm max, so even with less detergent in the oil of a low SAPS engine oil you're going to be able to extend your oil drain period before you need to change the engine oil. Diesel engine oil formulation has modified somewhat over the last 30 years.

I remember back in the 1990s when operators of European trucks thought that they could go to 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains here in NZ because that was what the truck manufacturer put in their manuals. But they overlooked the conditions that the manufacturer stipulated, that was 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains if the trucks were operating on light loaded, highway/autobahn conditions running on something like diesel with less than 50 ppm. NZ trucks were operating at higher fuel consumption rates and using much higher sulfur fuel than European trucks, and when we calculated the amount of fuel, and particularly fuel sulfur, being burnt then European trucks should have had 10,000 to 15,000 km oil drains.

If you also think of the oil consumption of say a Cummins NTC350 back in the 1990s, that might have been 2 Litres over a 15,000 oil drain. Multiply that by 4 and you've got 8 Litres over 60,000 km. Oil consumption is largely affected by the operation of another component of the oil, the dispersant. The dispersant's job is to hold contaminants (mainly soot in a diesel engine) in suspension until it can be removed at oil drain. However, the dispersant can only hold a finite amount of soot in suspension, and once that limit is reached then the excess soot will start to deposit and one area it will deposit in is the piston ring grooves. Extremely small deposits in the ring grooves will affect the performance of the oil piston rings and oil consumption will increase towards the end of an oil drain period.

I remember in the BOP in the late 80s, some truck operators contracting for KFL were finding that they checked their oil level every morning and as soon as they had to top up 2 L they'd book their truck in for an oil and filter change. They noticed that their oil analysis results showed oil changes between 14,500 and 15,500 km without exception. That was the range that a good quality diesel engine oil could hold the amount of soot generated before it started to interfere with the operation of the piston rings and oil consumption resulted.

[BMWST?]

i think there is a castrol 0w 60 oil and a certain german car manufacturer uses it.Apparently they have a v10 which can use up to 1l of oil in 1000 k,and that is regarded as "normal".

[caspernz]

Caspernz, have a think back at the specification of diesel fuel three decades ago. It had up to 0.3% (3000 ppm) of sulfur in it. When burnt, sulfur created acidic byproducts which the engine oil detergent had to neutralise. In neutralising the acidic combustion byproducts the engine oil's TBN (Total Base Number, or alkalinity reserve) was used up - it was a sacrificial additive.

Nowdays the level of sulfur in diesel is 10 ppm max, so even with less detergent in the oil of a low SAPS engine oil you're going to be able to extend your oil drain period before you need to change the engine oil. Diesel engine oil formulation has modified somewhat over the last 30 years.

I remember back in the 1990s when operators of European trucks thought that they could go to 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains here in NZ because that was what the truck manufacturer put in their manuals. But they overlooked the conditions that the manufacturer stipulated, that was 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains if the trucks were operating on light loaded, highway/autobahn conditions running on something like diesel with less than 50 ppm. NZ trucks were operating at higher fuel consumption rates and using much higher sulfur fuel than European trucks, and when we calculated the amount of fuel, and particularly fuel sulfur, being burnt then European trucks should have had 10,000 to 15,000 km oil drains.

If you also think of the oil consumption of say a Cummins NTC350 back in the 1990s, that might have been 2 Litres over a 15,000 oil drain. Multiply that by 4 and you've got 8 Litres over 60,000 km. Oil consumption is largely affected by the operation of another component of the oil, the dispersant. The dispersant's job is to hold contaminants (mainly soot in a diesel engine) in suspension until it can be removed at oil drain. However, the dispersant can only hold a finite amount of soot in suspension, and once that limit is reached then the excess soot will start to deposit and one area it will deposit in is the piston ring grooves. Extremely small deposits in the ring grooves will affect the performance of the oil piston rings and oil consumption will increase towards the end of an oil drain period.

I remember in the BOP in the late 80s, some truck operators contracting for KFL were finding that they checked their oil level every morning and as soon as they had to top up 2 L they'd book their truck in for an oil and filter change. They noticed that their oil analysis results showed oil changes between 14,500 and 15,500 km without exception. That was the range that a good quality diesel engine oil could hold the amount of soot generated before it started to interfere with the operation of the piston rings and oil consumption resulted.

Cheers Steve, the detail that goes along with oils and their uses is a topic I'm interested in obviously. Plenty of weird and wonderful ways of explaining the different approaches, and then add in the variations from one engine manufacturer to another. Then the propaganda from a salesman vs the workshop managers' real life in-service experience. I've actually got more years of running American stuff than European, although I'll admit I prefer the Euro gear. I recall an in-service experience with C12 CATs when they became the engine of choice in the outfit I worked in. Our crew stuck to a 20,000 km oil drain interval, another contractor used the CAT method of fuel burn to guide the oil change, which resulted in drain intervals around 25-26,000 km. Each of our engines made it to 1.2 million km, at which point they got an in-frame rebuild, whereas the other guys' had all but one engine go clunk well before the 1 million mark. The workshop manager talked about "dirty diesel" as in the sulphur content being a bit high to follow the CAT fuel burn method, so in this case you couldn't argue with his logic.

Nowadays, and after a number of years running 16 litre V8s, the amount of oil burn that's considered either normal or acceptable between oil drains...is somewhat disconcerting to me. Various ways of the manufacturer proclaiming this as being normal of course, but when I'm "topping up" between 5 and 10 litres over either a 40 K or 60 K drain interval, this makes me think it's time for an oil & filter change instead of a top-up. Oh well, it must be ok since we're not seeing in-service failures, but I just can't shake the feeling we're taking the lubricant to the limit :no::no:


i think there is a castrol 0w 60 oil and a certain german car manufacturer uses it.Apparently they have a v10 which can use up to 1l of oil in 1000 k,and that is regarded as "normal".

Yes that must be the M5 aye? High performance cars (and bikes) are like a mistress though, expensive to acquire and even more expensive to keep happy...:laugh:

[eldog]

Not really related to this thread but,

i have a customer who checks his oil regularily, it’s used in a machine.
he checks it every 250 hrs and checks and replaces it every 500hr.

no matter what, he replaces the oil, even though it way under manufacturers specs.

he hasn’t had any problems.

his reason. Oil is cheap, repair/replacement is costly

[AllanB]

his reason. Oil is cheap, repair/replacement is costly

It's a philosophy I've adopted over the years.


Consider it your engines life blood.

[Old Steve]

Hey Steve, what is zero weight oil about then? Ta

There is no 'zero weight' oil. There is SAE 0W, this is a low temperature description of an oil which enables cranking at -35 degrees C and will allow the oil pump to operate down to -40 degrees C. So what you could describe as a 'zero weight' oil would be a description of a multigrade oil with exceptional low temperature characteristics, eg SAE 0W-20.

SAE 0W-20 oils are mandated for some American and Japanese manufactured vehicles, this is mainly to contribute to fuel efficiency targets. There is a USA Federal standard called CAFE, Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency. Each manufacturer has to take the average of the fuel efficiency of every vehicle they manufacture, if say Ford sell 5 Litre V8 Mustangs then they have to sell a lot of something the size of a Focus to keep the average fuel consumption of their fleet down. For every 0.1 mpg their CAFE is below the Federal limit, then the manufacturer has to pay a fine of $50 per vehicle produced. So in order to reduce internal engine friction, to reduce fuel consumption, they use low viscosity engine oils and friction modified engine oils. But, if they use a certain oil to pass the CAFE then they must specify that oil be used in service.

However USA CAFE requirements have no legel standing here in NZ, but the car manufacturers here still religiously recommend the viscosity grade recommended in the USA. With a 'lighter' engine oil viscosity being used, the quantity of oil flow has to increase to maintain full fluid film lubrication between moving engine components. CAFE is currently somewhere around 30 miles/USGal (approx 7.8 L/100 km, 36 miles/Imp Gal) for cars, and about 24 miles/USGal (9.8 L/100 km, 28 miles/Imp Gal) for light trucks. The Trump Administration is reviewing the long term CAFE limits set by Obama out to 2025, pennies to pounds the Obama CAFE targets get the axe.