It Won't Happen To Me, I don't need to change.

[rastuscat]

Sickening.

Certainly I make no reference to those have departed in the recent days and distant past. I post this in the (potentially vain) hope that it might open some eyes.

334644

As a society we live with the belief that "it won't happen to me."

Often this belief is reinforced by the lack of adverse outcome, which teaches us, subconsciously, that whatever we have done is safe.

For example, I'm driving home from work, my phone sitting face up on the passengers seat. The phone rings, I look down, and there on the screen of the phone is a picture of my wife peering back at me. It's my wife calling. Several things go through my mind; if I answer that, I might get a ticket, I might kill someone (the ads say so), I might run over a child. All adverse outcomes. Then I realise that not answering a call from my wife carries a greater adverse outcome, so answer, quickly dispose of the call, and put the phone back down. Result? No adverse outcome. I've subconsciously reinforced the belief that what I did is safe.

The next time the phone rings, It's just that little bit easier to answer, based on my previous experience. After 400 calls, I'll be snap chatting, instagramming, facebooking, updating my work calendar.........you get the idea.

Same with other, motorcycle related behaviours. Those who don't wear gloves, and haven't for years, won't, because it's not going to happen to them. They are a good rider, riding for 30 years, never had a crash (that they will admit to), it won't happen to them. They don't need safety gear, it's not going to happen to them. No, this is not a rant about safety gear, this was just an example of historically reinforced risk behaviour.

But each day in NZ it happens to someone. I've attended thousands of crashes over the years, and if I had asked each driver involved if they knew their crash was going to happen, of course they would have said no. Because of they knew it was going to happen, they would have prevented it.

We don't know when it's going to happen to us, because if we knew that, we'd prevent it. We just don't think it'll happen to us.

We see no reason to maintain good following distances, as we've been following too close behind our riding mates for years, with no adverse outcome. Nobody can tell us to maintain a legal or better following distance. We've been lane splitting for years, legally or illegally, with no adverse outcome. Nobody can tell us it's a marginal idea. We change lanes without head checking, because we've been doing it for years and never had a problem, where's the need to change that little number?

How about we front foot stuff, and consider that however unlikely, no matter how flash a rider we are, it just might happen to us. Imagine that. We have the chance to change our outcomes. Wow, revelation.

Just a wee bit of a rant, as I've heard so much about how everything is someone else's fault. Police's fault, gubbermits fault, foreign tourists fault, white-van-man's fault. It seems everything is someone else's fault. The discussion about fault means nothing to your broken arm, broken leg or ruptured spleen. Fault means little when you are the victim of someone else's mistake, let alone your own.

And I repeat, I make no judgement regarding the crashes in the article. Poor beggars. But I bet they didn't think it was going to happen to them.

[nzspokes]

But it wont happen to me.

[Scubbo]

it can happen to anyone, just enjoy the ride, that's life

[rastuscat]

it can happen to anyone, just enjoy the ride, that's life

Just enjoy the ride.

And don't worry about the things that you can do to prevent your enjoyment being curtailed, as it won't happen to you.

[OddDuck]

I've had enough near misses over the years to know that sooner or later something's going to happen. Ride sanely, watch those following distances, keep the bike in good nick, wear the ATGATT, do the training. Ride rested, sober and calm. Be in the situation, whatever it is. It all helps. It doesn't reduce the risks to zero.

Your point about following your mate too closely rings true Rastus - that's one I've got to work on.

[YellowDog]

I am surprised there have not been more serious accidents on group rides. That false sense of security all goes to pot, when one less skilled rider pulls on the brake a little too hard. I try and avoid those and only go out with riders I know well.

I must say that I am a strong subconscious advocate of ATGATT. I didn't know I was until a couple of years ago, on a very hot summer's afternoon, when I thought I would pop down to the village to get some groceries. Just 5Km down SH16 in T-Shirt, Shorts, & Jandals. You know, just like in the 1970s & 80s!.It just felt so wrong and like everyone one was looking over and judging me. Particularly other riders. I didn't do it again.

It seems that many of us have been conditioned by society to change our values, like many of us have with smoking in public.

Very sad to read about such unnecessary loss of young lives. Very tough for family & friends to live with for the rest of their own lives.

[Scubbo]

Just enjoy the ride.

And don't worry about the things that you can do to prevent your enjoyment being curtailed, as it won't happen to you.

this is true, but even when you do everything "EVERYTHING" right, something bad can still happen which you have no chance of avoiding ---- my point is at some point, you have to just accept the risk of life and enjoy living rather than worrying about dying

[rastuscat]

this is true, but even when you do everything "EVERYTHING" right, something bad can still happen which you have no chance of avoiding ---- my point is at some point, you have to just accept the risk of life and enjoy living rather than worrying about dying

Plus 2000.

[Scuba_Steve]

I won't/can't happen to me


... at the moment; my bikes in pieces :crybaby:

[Banditbandit]

https://pics.me.me/dont-give-a-fuck-today-didnt-give-a-fuck-yesterday-20633075.png



If you're worried about what might happen you'll never get out of bed ..

[Moi]

If you're worried about what might happen you'll never get out of bed...

Is it about being "worried about what might happen" or is it "being aware of the risks and mitigating them as best you can"?

[nerrrd]

Read the same article on Stuff yesterday, very sobering.

My personal level of self confidence means I don’t feel comfortable on the bike without gearing up, but what I wear is dictated more by the practicalities of cost vs convenience than outright safety (pants are usually overpants I can take off easily and store, boots are often workboots so i can walk around easily, armour is whatever comes in the jacket etc.)

I’d really like to rock one of these one day http://www.aerostich.com/suits/one-piece-suits/roadcrafter-classic/men-s-roadcrafter-classic-one-piece-suit.html and it would ‘suit’ me down to the ground, but the cost/hassle of buying overseas and importing one is so far too much of a disincentive.

Which I guess means I’m mostly operating on the theory it won’t happen to me either, price shouldn’t be a factor.

[HenryDorsetCase]

this is true, but even when you do everything "EVERYTHING" right, something bad can still happen which you have no chance of avoiding ---- my point is at some point, you have to just accept the risk of life and enjoy living rather than worrying about dying


This is true, but this is about risk mitigation. I used to be involved in a sport that is considered high risk - whitewater kayaking. Its a lot like motorbike riding in a lot of ways and attracts similar sorts of people. After a few near misses and cockups I did some training/rescue courses and so forth. After the training/courses becoming available - there was nothing when we started except "Yeah, so this is your boat and paddle, there's the river, go for your life". Anyway, my point is that you wouldn't be involved in it at all if you didnt have some appetite for and enjoyment of risk - this is a pastime that by definition attracts a personality type who embrace and enjoy that risk. What "sensible" people do, on the water or on the road, is mitigate that risk as much as they can, while accepting that some risk remains. And sometime that will kill you or someone you know or someone who is really, really good at what they do. As an example, Louise Jull, who was a top (world class) paddler who died on her local last year.

So what we're talking about is HOW that risk is mitigated - sure you can bleat on about ATGATT but the fact is that shit is only good AFTER shit has gone down. and it wouldnt matter how good your gear is in most impacts over about 50kph. I wouldnt be without it (though I do ride in jeans a lot) but the biggest risk mitigation factors are attitude and awareness. In fact one of my resolutions this year has been to do some more advanced training, and to stop riding a "sporty" bike on the road. YMMV of course.

[R650R]

You are assuming people think it wont happen to me... but many people ACCEPT that yes it could happen under the guise of living a workable life.

Under OSH in New Zealand its called a "managed risk", you know something is dangerous but you take steps to mitigate the risks. I raised a certain issue at last forklift course that a certain activity is said to be not allowed by standard code of practice but its subsequently ok when done as a managed risk.

Eg the person taking the call from the wife might briefly reduce their speed, pay more attention their driving instead of thinking whats for dinner etc... during the brief call time. Whats made cellphone use while driving now is having to hide the phone and fumble about lest someone *555 you a wreck your licence. I cant see why its anymore damngerous than operating any of the other controls in the car or talking with passengers etc.
But I don't do it as I need my licence for work.

It would be interesting to see real accurate data on crashes where following distance was the primary cause. I've been hit three times from behind in, motorbike, truck and car. In none of those crashes was following distance an issue, it was failing to pay attention.

What we should really be upset about is the extreme poor standard of driver training, aging vehicle fleet with worn suspension and shitty cheap plastic tyres...

In an ideal world we should complete a written precheck (so we don't miss anything) of our vehicle and riding gear, consult the metservice website, consult the transit website for road info, file a flight plan style report of our intended route and email it to all other road users like a workplace site safety alert.... That's the standard for moving vehicles in a large workplace/worksite, if we want to really talk safety why don't we do the same for citizens daily vehicle use???? Because of the impact it would have on living, so we manage that risk with a lesser standard so society doesn't grind to a halt.
In the end road safety is a game cause that's the way the government (the people you voted for) set it up. You can do dumb wrong stuff multiple times with small penalties till we consider maybe not letting you drive, even then you can play the next level and ignore those rules too... So don't hate on the players, hate the game, the rigged game...

But hey this is a society where its deemed proper to chase a dangerous nutbar (probably on P) at high speeds through suburban areas in a shitbox car with crappy worn tyres rather than just put a bullet through the windscreen to start with.... all comes back to managed risks I guess....

[EJK]

https://pics.me.me/dont-give-a-fuck-today-didnt-give-a-fuck-yesterday-20633075.png



If you're worried about what might happen you'll never get out of bed ..

I understand to some extent but can't help to think such IDGAF attitude won't save you/ prevent from "what might happen" either.

[caspernz]

The bit I can add is that some view "doing the right thing" as boring.

Whether it be riding in a legal fashion (well, mostly officer...) or any other discipline items, which really comes down to personal responsibility.

My five cents :cool:

[old slider]

Cheers Rastuscat,

acknowledgement and reminders can only be good.

Grabbed the bike to go fetch some more milk after unexpected visitors arrived, helmet & gloves always go together, I had pulled on my Grisport work boots and chucked on a polar fleeze jacket that was handy, the shops only 5kms away Funny how I felt more vulnerable in my jeans and fleece jacket instead of my leather jacket, I am thinking that maybe when I wear my protective clothing it gives me a false sense of security?

[Moi]

Cheers Rastuscat,

acknowledgement and reminders can only be good.

Grabbed the bike to go fetch some more milk after unexpected visitors arrived, helmet & gloves always go together, I had pulled on my Grisport work boots and chucked on a polar fleeze jacket that was handy, the shops only 5kms away Funny how I felt more vulnerable in my jeans and fleece jacket instead of my leather jacket, I am thinking that maybe when I wear my protective clothing it gives me a false sense of security?

False sense of security - I'm going to say "No", it just "didn't feel right".

I stand to be corrected on this, but my understanding is that the subconscious associates particular behaviours with particular actions. By that I mean, when you ride your bike - the "action" - you wear particular clothing - the "behaviour". When you do one, the action, without the other, the behaviour, your subconscious is out of equilibrium, it doesn't fit with what you usually do...

[rastuscat]

There's a whole field of psychology dedicated to trying to understand traffic behaviour.

It dips into Freud's identity theory, and it's fascinating.

Reinforcing errant behaviour by not having adverse outcomes is one such fascination.

I have thought far too much about behaviour management via psychological messaging. I hurts my head.

I didn't get paid by the Police to think about things, I got paid to do things. But I jacked it in as the things I was expected to do didn't tally with the things I thought would work. There's only so much personal conflict a lad can deal with.

[old slider]

False sense of security - I'm going to say "No", it just "didn't feel right".

I stand to be corrected on this, but my understanding is that the subconscious associates particular behaviours with particular actions. By that I mean, when you ride your bike - the "action" - you wear particular clothing - the "behaviour". When you do one, the action, without the other, the behaviour, your subconscious is out of equilibrium, it doesn't fit with what you usually do...


I think you are right, I always make a conscious decision to wear what I regard as appropriate clothing for motor cycling and I cringe when I see people in tee shirts, shorts etc, so yes I think it was because it isnt something I would usually do.

[SVboy]

Interesting thread, apart from that Cnut cassina's dribble. However, if you all must feed the troll, you reap what you sow. I am now quite fatalistic about my chances of surviving on the roads. I am atgatt no matter what bike I am riding, trail, adventure, sports, whatever. I have been to riding schools and am an aware rider with considerable current experience. In saying that, I am honest in understanding my considerable limitations. I think and reflect on my riding, particularly the mistakes I make and how to improve next time. On occasion I ride quickly and ride with people I trust and know. I also know there is a high chance that something bad will happen to me, possibly caused by me or by extraneous factors. Whatever, I accept this. I believe I do things to lower the risk as well as doing things that raise the risk. To me, this is my motorcycling and it is my passion.

[Ifsn8u]

Having just moved to the cantebury region, these accidents aren't doing me any favours with the wife. These just fuel her fire more, for me not to ride. lol

ATTGAT, pay attention and don't be knob and you probably will make it home. Hitting a car head on doesn't seem appealing to me. Or a sheep.

[IkieBikie]

For example, I'm driving home from work, my phone sitting face up on the passengers seat. The phone rings, I look down, and there on the screen of the phone is a picture of my wife peering back at me. It's my wife calling.

Don't look down. Hear the phone ringing, indicate and pull over then look at it!

[rastuscat]

Don't look down. Hear the phone ringing, indicate and pull over then look at it!

Oh for heavens sake. Don't be so damn sensible.

[YellowDog]

Having just moved to the cantebury region, these accidents aren't doing me any favours with the wife. These just fuel her fire more, for me not to ride. lol

ATTGAT, pay attention and don't be knob and you probably will make it home. Hitting a car head on doesn't seem appealing to me. Or a sheep.

My new bike arrives next week and the missus already wants me to sell it :blink:

[Ifsn8u]

My new bike arrives next week and the missus already wants me to sell it :blink:

Glad im not the only one!!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Don't look down. Hear the phone ringing, indicate and pull over then look at it!

My car has handsfree, and it mutes the stereo when it rings. Normally I reject the call because I like to listen to music when driving and be distracted that way, rather than having some cunt wittering on. I love cars - you feel so safe.

[HenryDorsetCase]

My new bike arrives next week and the missus already wants me to sell it :blink:

What did you get? asking the important questions since ages ago.

[EJK]

Glad im not the only one!!

My wife didn't like motorcycles. A couple days ago there was an article about a person here in Canterbury who was involved in a big motorcycle accident. He was someone we knew close to our family.

She now hates motorcycles!

[SVboy]

My wife didn't like motorcycles. A couple days ago there was an article about a person here in Canterbury who was involved in a big motorcycle accident. He was someone we knew close to our family.

She now hates motorcycles!

We were caught up in that very sad incident. It gave me pause to reflect, but more to crystallise my thoughts on what I do. Perhaps the thread title is very apt after all!

[Ocean1]

Just a wee bit of a rant, as I've heard so much about how everything is someone else's fault. Police's fault, gubbermits fault, foreign tourists fault, white-van-man's fault. It seems everything is someone else's fault. The discussion about fault means nothing to your broken arm, broken leg or ruptured spleen. Fault means little when you are the victim of someone else's mistake, let alone your own.

See, for me the focus on other people's contributions to the road toll is fuck all to do with any supposed recency bias or avoidance of personal responsibility. Quite the opposite. I think it's driven by the simple fact that whatever we do as individuals to manage our risk is affected not a jot by reciting popular safety dogma, whereas most of the other significant potential contributors are seemingly oblivious to their effect.

Not that LTNZ, (to pick one of the more prominent contributors) spend a lot of time researching motorcyclist's opinions on KB, or in fact would be likely to absorb any potential lessons from it if they did. Nonetheless, I reckon there's at least as much potential for improving the safety of motorcyclists among non-motorcylists as there is among riders. Maybe more. They're just not as motivated in achieving those improvements.

[Ocean1]

There's a whole field of psychology dedicated to trying to understand traffic behaviour.

It dips into Freud's identity theory, and it's fascinating.

Reinforcing errant behaviour by not having adverse outcomes is one such fascination.

I have thought far too much about behaviour management via psychological messaging. I hurts my head.

I didn't get paid by the Police to think about things, I got paid to do things. But I jacked it in as the things I was expected to do didn't tally with the things I thought would work. There's only so much personal conflict a lad can deal with.

How does the theory of risk homeostasis fit with your professional observations of traffic behaviour?

Ony, if there's any weight there, (and research suggests there is) then "improving" safety could only be achieved by both increasing apparent risk while reducing actual risk.

[Ocean1]

My wife didn't like motorcycles. A couple days ago there was an article about a person here in Canterbury who was involved in a big motorcycle accident. He was someone we knew close to our family.

She now hates motorcycles!

I married an ED nurse.

She grounded me for 15 years.

[GazzaH]

Getting back to the original point, we humans do have a problem with low probability but extremely severe/high impact risks. There are loads of things that can kill us but most are very unlikely ... which leads us to dismiss or ignore them out of hand, rather than even attempt to consider, let alone deal with them.

It works the other way too: when very low probability but extremely severe incidents occur, we are "shocked" ... which is the emotional effect of re-evaluating the risks. Severe incidents that are gory are all the more shocking and newsworthy, which skews our assessment of the risk even more.

As a consequence, our perceptions and fears differ markedly from the ACTUAL causes of serious injury and death, as determined and recorded systematically for eons. We are petrified of extreme violence and crashes, yet we tolerate heart disease, strokes, cancer, obesity, diabetes, suicide and various other diseases and events far more likely to cause our demise. We're more worried about being eaten by great white sharks than drowning! Home invasion - that's "scary", but domestic violence is "overblown". We believe in ATGATT, yet smoke, drink and eat to excess.

[GazzaH]

I married an ED nurse.

She grounded me for 15 years.

There are nurses for that? I thought the blue pills solved it.

[pritch]

Don't look down. Hear the phone ringing, indicate and pull over then look at it!

There is a major international company in town here has a rule, "Ignition on, cell phone off".

Mind you, their cars tended to be driven in a less than umm impressive(?) manner, so they removed the corporate logos.

[eldog]

My new bike arrives next week and the missus already wants me to sell it :blink:

Well once yourve sold her, you can go for a ride on the new bike anytime you want.
whats to worry about that?:doctor:

[rastuscat]

Getting back to the original point, we humans do have a problem with low probability but extremely severe/high impact risks. There are loads of things that can kill us but most are very unlikely ... which leads us to dismiss or ignore them out of hand, rather than even attempt to consider, let alone deal with them.

It works the other way too: when very low probability but extremely severe incidents occur, we are "shocked" ... which is the emotional effect of re-evaluating the risks. Severe incidents that are gory are all the more shocking and newsworthy, which skews our assessment of the risk even more.

As a consequence, our perceptions and fears differ markedly from the ACTUAL causes of serious injury and death, as determined and recorded systematically for eons. We are petrified of extreme violence and crashes, yet we tolerate heart disease, strokes, cancer, obesity, diabetes, suicide and various other diseases and events far more likely to cause our demise. We're more worried about being eaten by great white sharks than drowning! Home invasion - that's "scary", but domestic violence is "overblown". We believe in ATGATT, yet smoke, drink and eat to excess.

You and I are similarly inclined.

[rastuscat]

How does the theory of risk homeostasis fit with your professional observations of traffic behaviour?

Ony, if there's any weight there, (and research suggests there is) then "improving" safety could only be achieved by both increasing apparent risk while reducing actual risk.

The spike in the middle of the steering column would increase the perceived risk. If it were a 3D hologram, which people actually thought was real, it would increase the perceived risk while actually not increasing the actual risk.

[Voltaire]

Over Xmas been doing some house maintenance and my wife can't stand BFM and I dislike the endless add infested Simon

Cowell drivel she likes so compromised on " The Coast" songs from the 60's 70's and 80's

They have been playing an add for motorcyclists along the lines of " motorcycles are hard to see compared to cars, look

once....look twice"

Works for cars too, " look once for distracted phone twiddling,make up applying, chatting to passenger moron, look twice"

After hearing Phil fucking Collins too many times I turned over to Hauraki...sad reflection of its former self.

I ride my old Vespa into the city some days, leather jacket and gloves.... feel a tad over ATGATT'ed compared to most.

[Ocean1]

There are nurses for that? I thought the blue pills solved it.

What use is one without the other?

[Ocean1]

The spike in the middle of the steering column would increase the perceived risk. If it were a 3D hologram, which people actually thought was real, it would increase the perceived risk while actually not increasing the actual risk.

People have an amazing ability to adapt to their environment, by the time they turned out of their driveway they'd have completely assimilated the extra perceived risk.

Honestly, there's fuck all you can do to change it. NZ do a good line in scaring the crap out of people, but you don't generally see people queuing up for their 3rd bungy jump off some bridge.

You'd do far better accepting that the species will continue to fuck up at the same rate they have done for millennia and concentrate on making the environment as benign as possible. I may have mentioned the concept previously. <_<

[RDJ]

om work, my phone sitting face up on the passengers seat. The phone rings, I look down, and there on the screen of the phone is a picture of my wife peering back at me. It's my wife calling. Several things go through my mind; if I answer that, I might get a ticket, I might kill someone (the ads say so), I might run over a child. All adverse outcomes. Then I realise that not answering a call from my wife carries a greater adverse outcome, so answer

Shorter version: scared of his wife.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Over Xmas been doing some house maintenance and my wife can't stand BFM and I dislike the endless add infested Simon

Cowell drivel she likes so compromised on " The Coast" songs from the 60's 70's and 80's

They have been playing an add for motorcyclists along the lines of " motorcycles are hard to see compared to cars, look

once....look twice"

Works for cars too, " look once for distracted phone twiddling,make up applying, chatting to passenger moron, look twice"

After hearing Phil fucking Collins too many times I turned over to Hauraki...sad reflection of its former self.

I ride my old Vespa into the city some days, leather jacket and gloves.... feel a tad over ATGATT'ed compared to most.

commercial radio sucks donkey balls. Radio New Zealand FTW (do yourself a favour and tune in this afternoon), and failing that, Pandora or Spotify, or one of the myriad internet radio stations. Its the same as TV: you only hear advertising and witless "bentah" because you want to - there is no need for you to in 2019.

[eldog]

Hauraki...sad reflection of its former self.



How true. Tuned in a while back lasted 1 hour.

Maybe our tastes have changed as we get older?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hauraki...sad reflection of its former self.



How true. Tuned in a while back lasted 1 hour.

Maybe our tastes have changed as we get older?

Generally speaking, that isn't the case. People's music taste seems set in stone by their early 20's. So they then spend the rest of their lives going "this is shit" to anything new that they didnt like "back in the day". I've tried not to do it myself, and have my ears open to new things. I think too, that for every Led Zeppelin or Sex Pistols, there is 100 other bands (that are someone's favourite band) that are just awful. So for anything new, its sifting a lot of shit to get to the pearls. My favourite two new artist discoveries of 2017 have been St Vincent and Amanda Shires. Oh, and I have re-discovered Judas Priest after dismissing them in the 80's as "shit compared to Iron Maiden" which was a disservice to them.

[Banditbandit]

I understand to some extent but can't help to think such IDGAF attitude won't save you/ prevent from "what might happen" either.


You mistake what I am saying.

I have seen and been involved in "what might happen" ... Situational awareness goes a long way - awareness of what is happening on the road, what might happen, and whereabouts I am on the road .. . and I mean complete awareness
- not being distracted by I-pone sounds - drifting off into nevernever land ..
- knowing how to ride in a group (heaps don't)
- thinking every car may be the one that will kill you ... and a couple have tried - twice I've hit the car, other times avoided it .
- being aware of the grip level in the tyres (I can feel when the pressure is down by 5kph.)
- knowing exactly what the bike will and won't do (track experience is a good way to get this) - acceleration AND braking, weaving around sudden obstacles ..

But safety? I'm with Guy Martin - when he as asked if he would ride a motorcycle if there was no possibility of dying every time he got on one - he said "probably not".

It's the risk that adds to the adventure ..

[Moi]

... It's the risk that adds to the adventure ..

Is it the "risk"? Or is it "challenge of managing that risk" that adds to the adventure?

[EJK]

You mistake what I am saying.

I have seen and been involved in "what might happen" ... Situational awareness goes a long way - awareness of what is happening on the road, what might happen, and whereabouts I am on the road .. . and I mean complete awareness
- not being distracted by I-pone sounds - drifting off into nevernever land ..
- knowing how to ride in a group (heaps don't)
- thinking every car may be the one that will kill you ... and a couple have tried - twice I've hit the car, other times avoided it .
- being aware of the grip level in the tyres (I can feel when the pressure is down by 5kph.)
- knowing exactly what the bike will and won't do (track experience is a good way to get this) - acceleration AND braking, weaving around sudden obstacles ..

But safety? I'm with Guy Martin - when he as asked if he would ride a motorcycle if there was no possibility of dying every time he got on one - he said "probably not".

It's the risk that adds to the adventure ..

When I saw the image I thought of gang riders in leather vests, t shirt, tin can German hat on blacked out cruisers with screamin eagle pipes zig zaging through traffic at 70-80kph down Moorhouse Ave. Cause clearly they don't give a fuck.

Apologies for misunderstanding.

[Voltaire]

commercial radio sucks donkey balls. Radio New Zealand FTW (do yourself a favour and tune in this afternoon), and failing that, Pandora or Spotify, or one of the myriad internet radio stations. Its the same as TV: you only hear advertising and witless "bentah" because you want to - there is no need for you to in 2019.

I'm hearing ya, I liked rock but these days quite happy to listed to hours of Jazz and the Blues.
I don't really watch TV as can't stand the adds and talking heads.:yawn:

[Voltaire]

Generally speaking, that isn't the case. People's music taste seems set in stone by their early 20's. So they then spend the rest of their lives going "this is shit" to anything new that they didnt like "back in the day". I've tried not to do it myself, and have my ears open to new things. I think too, that for every Led Zeppelin or Sex Pistols, there is 100 other bands (that are someone's favourite band) that are just awful. So for anything new, its sifting a lot of shit to get to the pearls. My favourite two new artist discoveries of 2017 have been St Vincent and Amanda Shires. Oh, and I have re-discovered Judas Priest after dismissing them in the 80's as "shit compared to Iron Maiden" which was a disservice to them.

I lasted into my 30's before saying " this is shit" a lot.
My two lads were camping over New Year and said they got sick of all the rap/hip hop shit their friends were playing and hung out with hippies playing 60's and 70's stuff.:lol:, that 3 month Kombi trip of Europe in 2004 must have turned them.

[pritch]

I think the "It won't happen to me" thing is somewhat overrated. There are people like that, you see them on the big public group rides, overtaking in stupid places, putting themselves and everybody else at risk. They are the reason I don't do those rides any more. Thankfully they are the minority though. Having said that there is the famous quote, "Most people's risk assessment skills are so poor that it's not uncommon to meet smokers who worry about terrorism".

On crap radio: I totally agree. Apart from the news on the hour I mostly listen to podcasts now. The variety is mind boggling. It is a little difficult to find things you are interested in at the start, but it gets better with time.

[Banditbandit]

When I saw the image I thought of gang riders in leather vests, t shirt, tin can German hat on blacked out cruisers with screamin eagle pipes zig zaging through traffic at 70-80kph down Moorhouse Ave. Cause clearly they don't give a fuck.

Apologies for misunderstanding.

:rofl:

Close ... I've managed 80+ (probably mph) on Bealey Avenue - on a Triumph (Meridan) with long hair, denim cuts over the leathers .. ape hangers ... (Never had a Nazi helmet - didn't like the look) and very loud pipes ... back in the 1970s

I was also stopped by a cop on Cranford Street at over 100mph ... 4.30 on a Friday afternoon .. going home from work. I wasn't zigzagging - just sitting on the white line ..

Yeah - I have the remnants of a 1%er attitude (never had a patch - the clubs have rules - I mean what kind of rebel bikers have rules? Ask yourself ... and remnants of the attitude because I'm passed 60 now - and a long way from those days) with a speed freak riding style ... so I don't ride harleys ...

And no, I haven't lived in Chch since 1979.

[Banditbandit]

Is it the "risk"? Or is it "challenge of managing that risk" that adds to the adventure?

Whatever - I just like playing in the traffic ..

[T.W.R]

FFS :facepalm: All this fucking tripe about group fucking rides :oi-grr: How many here damn well commute on a daily basis? group rides aren't any bloody different apart from the fact there's a damn sight more doing the same damn thing expecting the same outcome, commuting there's individuals with different agendas & roughly the same direction of travel with god knows what else distracting them. The volatile & unruly standout far more easily on a group ride than the wolves hiding amongst the sheep on a daily commute.
There's always going to be a spanner in the works somewhere along the line but get over it, awareness of the possibility of it happening & alertness to reading the signs...remember it's a discipline that's continually teaching.
Riding schools & institutes are just tools, education facilities to grow from, just the same as any educational facility they're designed to promote growth and betterment to the individual; It's what the individual does with that knowledge is the important thing and everyone's perception & projection is unique otherwise we'd all be fucking clones. If you think you're beyond further education or expanding & refining what you think you already know you're a closed mind and a closed mind is a dangerous mind.
Respect what you're doing, understand the consequences of your actions, & as for ATGATT remember flesh looks like a candle has been smeared on tar seal and everyone loves disfigurement ;)

[Old Steve]

Other motorists could be made aware of motorcycles, it's just a case of throwing enough money and time at it.

Remember the "Girls can do anything" advertising campaign? I think Kiwis are much more open to gender equality than some other nations, Australia immediately springs to mind. Didn't Helen Clark say NZ chose the best man available for the job of PM, even if he was a woman?

And how many years ago did smokers puff away in offices. If I told you in 1980 that one day smokers would leave their office and go stand out in the street to indulge their habit, you would have asked me to share the drugs I was taking. Just consider the social engineering both those changes in attitude and habit represent.

So a "Hey! Don't drive and use your mobile!" and "Look over your shoulder!" campaign would work, just needs enough advertising time bought, careful construction of the social change wanted, and the Police to concentrate on mobile use while driving and dangerous driving instead of speed.

[Blackbird]

Riding schools & institutes are just tools, education facilities to grow from, just the same as any educational facility they're designed to promote growth and betterment to the individual; It's what the individual does with that knowledge is the important thing and everyone's perception & projection is unique otherwise we'd all be fucking clones. If you think you're beyond further education or expanding & refining what you think you already know you're a closed mind and a closed mind is a dangerous mind.
Respect what you're doing, understand the consequences of your actions, & as for ATGATT remember flesh looks like a candle has been smeared on tar seal and everyone loves disfigurement ;)

I don't know whether I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that attitudes about re-skilling/upskilling are changing. At one time, wanting to upskill seemed a bit of a rarity and there was a whole load of macho posturing that went with it. Nowadays, (even on KB, excepting the occasional fuckwit :innocent:), riders seem far more open to lifelong learning.

[RDJ]

FFS :facepalm: All this fucking tripe about group fucking rides :oi-grr: How many here damn well commute on a daily basis? group rides aren't any bloody different

Yeah. Everyday commute is a group ride where I'm on the smallest Road Platform. It breeds a Wary Eye, Covering the Brake Lever, and looking ahead for Shit About To Happen.

[Akzle]

Other motorists could be made aware of motorcycles, it's just a case of throwing enough money and time *hand grenades at it.
.

fixed that for you

[eldog]

don't ride staggered unless it's dead slow, preferably with disco escort at both ends.
that's the whole "don't let anyone else dictate your road position" thing

While in general, staggered on a straight section is the norm. It can give yourself more vision ahead and braking distance is slightly increased (you never know you may need that 10 ft). With my skill level I prefer not riding directly side by side, it gives you no room.


BUT, Always access the situation for yourself, position self irrespective of how others have done.

You can always use those ahead of you, as a guide. If they suddenly brake or serve, you know something is up and can change your plan if think its necessary.


Sounds like that "don't let anyone else dictate your road position"

[old slider]

don't ride staggered unless it's dead slow, preferably with disco escort at both ends.
that's the whole "don't let anyone else dictate your road position" thing



Cheers Akzle, the only public group rides I have been part of had escorts at both ends and staggered bikes, it seemed to go very smoothly and I felt comfortable being able to create my own following distances as conditions dictated, the faster riders were able to move further up the group at various places along the journey, usually this was at intersections and road turn offs with them all being controlled by members of the ride.

Of course I have the ability to indicate, pull into a rest area and change my direction of travel if I feel uncomfortable.

[eldog]

Cheers Akzle, the only public group rides I have been part of had escorts at both ends and staggered bikes, it seemed to go very smoothly and I felt comfortable being able to create my own following distances as conditions dictated, the faster riders were able to move further up the group at various places along the journey, usually this was at intersections and road turn offs with them all being controlled by members of the ride.

Of course I have the ability to indicate, pull into a rest area and change my direction of travel if I feel uncomfortable.


+1 decide for yourself :yes:

[Gremlin]

Once again, another thread descends into the same old drivel and I've moved the majority of it.

To all those involved, or thinking about being involved, consider this your warning. Keep your contribution to a thread relevant, without abusing another member.

[Akzle]

Once again, another thread descends into the same old drivel and I've moved the majority of it.

To all those involved, or thinking about being involved, consider this your warning. Keep your contribution to a thread relevant, without abusing another member.

thanks. but next time, shitcan it before it devolves.

perhaps spanky's spam-o should be employed, where if it posts the same shit, over and over, in irrelevant threads, they don't show up, and it gets pinked.
or shot in the face.

[caspernz]

Once again, another thread descends into the same old drivel and I've moved the majority of it.

To all those involved, or thinking about being involved, consider this your warning. Keep your contribution to a thread relevant, without abusing another member.

On the one hand, point noted.

On the other hand Mr Gremlin, sometimes one can feel a duty to stem the tide of BS that originates from one particular member that has only one record. The fact this record is skipping and keeps playing the same tune, whilst living in a fairyland no less, makes it hard to stay on topic and relevant.

[rastuscat]

While in general, staggered on a straight section is the norm. It can give yourself more vision ahead and braking distance is slightly increased (you never know you may need that 10 ft). With my skill level I prefer not riding directly side by side, it gives you no room.


BUT, Always access the situation for yourself, position self irrespective of how others have done.

You can always use those ahead of you, as a guide. If they suddenly brake or serve, you know something is up and can change your plan if think its necessary.


Sounds like that "don't let anyone else dictate your road position"

Staggered formation is important. It allows better visibility forward, and enables better surface appraisal for the rear rider.

Problem is, when staggered formation is adopted it encourages compression. Riders see clear space ahead and tuck up on the rider ahead.

This prevents free lateral movement by the rider ahead.

Lateral movement is the key to good positioning. My three positioning motivations are surface appraisal, visibility in and out, and buffering.

I want to vary my lateral position to mitigate risk via those three motivations.

When people behind me tuck up in behind me it reduces my ability to use lateral movement to mitigate risk per my perceived cumulative assessment.

Just pay respect forward. Allow a 2 second gap to the rider ahead.

[eldog]

Staggered formation is important. It allows better visibility forward, and enables better surface appraisal for the rear rider.

Problem is, when staggered formation is adopted it encourages compression. Riders see clear space ahead and tuck up on the rider ahead.

This prevents free lateral movement by the rider ahead.

Lateral movement is the key to good positioning. My three positioning motivations are surface appraisal, visibility in and out, and buffering.

I want to vary my lateral position to mitigate risk via those three motivations.

When people behind me tuck up in behind me it reduces my ability to use lateral movement to mitigate risk per my perceived cumulative assessment.

Just pay respect forward. Allow a 2 second gap to the rider ahead.

Well put :niceone:

Exactly what I was thinking.

Positioning should always be accessed by the individual.

General suggestions about riding positions etc are good starters.

Its always a changing situation, one that needs to be access continuously.

In the group riding I do, I really like the person behind me, they keep well back.

I don't want them coming to grief because I did something stupid.

[caspernz]

Can only support what RC has laid out :niceone:

The phrase that comes to mind, in regards group riding and staggered formation, is "why am I here" as in the position in relation to other riders. Is there a benefit to this action?

So in an urban situation you might argue having a 1 second following distance, in an offset position may work for the purposes of keeping the group fairly snug, it will also put a rider in a less than ideal position for view.

Move onto winding roads and the stagger has to go, with riders going back to single file formation, which then makes the 2 second following distance critical. This then creates a slowing of riders further back from leader.

All this works when you're riding with those of similar ability and training standard. In the absence of such, I'd say obey the 2 second rule and encourage single file riding.

My five cents :wait:

[YellowDog]

Regarding group riding, I am always more interested in who's behind me, rather than in front, and if they are keeping too close, I make sure I am in another part of the group, after the next break.

[old slider]

Now this right here is another reason why I enjoy logging in to KB, some great information for those of us who want it.

I did notice on the two group rides i attended that the staggered positions changed to single file when the roads got a few bendy bits and then reverted back to staggered when they straightened out.

I actually enjoyed those rides and never felt pressured to out ride my capabilities or felt at risk, if I had I would have simply gone my own way.

cheers guys for the sharing of your knowledge helping to make some of us more aware and our motorcycling safer.

[WilDun]

If you're worried about what might happen you'll never get out of bed ..

That's why birds are always up and about early.

[ellipsis]

...I dislike riding around here in the summertime, my exit out of here is directly onto SH75, the Akaroa GP circuit...in the winter it is a fantastic ride, not so in the summer months...my wife who rides with me on our group ride, (me and her) cringe at the sound of sports bikes hitting the 60 kph sign before entering the village main street, many still holding 10,000 revs like it's not the done thing to slow down...often the cringe is justified as we hear the WestPac chopper coming over a short while later to pick up the injured and maimed...this is common and has been for a few years now...it's not solely sports bikes but it generally is...the majority of the damage seems to be lack of experience and losing control without cages being anywhere near the incidents...but try and tell this to riders who believe their own bullshit...

...I've been self employed in my trade for 45 years and still learn something on every new job I take on...often these revelations make me slap my head and wonder why , in all these years, did this new revelation not pop up and become ingrained years before...I can only put this down to, every day is a different day and it aint always gonna be like the days that went before...after racing bikes on oval dirt and sealed tracks for thirty years the same shit applies...if you think you know it all then you will not proceed past your level of skill up to that point...

...the road is not a fucking race track...

[HenryDorsetCase]

...the road is not a fucking race track...

this. So much this. Its only taken me 35 or so years to realise it.

[pritch]

One thing about following distance, it's not a rule as such but it's a guide. Allow the rider in front of you the same distance as he is allowing the rider he is following. Presumably this is the distance at which he is comfortable.

Can't remember where I got that, may have been Nick Ienatch or maybe David L Hough?

[T.W.R]

I don't know whether I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that attitudes about re-skilling/upskilling are changing. At one time, wanting to upskill seemed a bit of a rarity and there was a whole load of macho posturing that went with it. Nowadays, (even on KB, excepting the occasional fuckwit :innocent:), riders seem far more open to lifelong learning.

Publicity & perception are changing with time, still an element of social conditioning is contributing as well. The development of the facilities available are far in advance of what they were too. There'll always be a certain element that have the blinkers on to any form of self improvement and there's the ones who just jump through the hoops without actually learning anything, but the short comings of both get brought to the fore when the shit hits the fan....natural attrition happens for a reason.



Yeah. Everyday commute is a group ride where I'm on the smallest Road Platform. It breeds a Wary Eye, Covering the Brake Lever, and looking ahead for Shit About To Happen.

Situational awareness to the fore....BTW you forgot what can be the killer....what's going on behind :yes:
Though the number of motorcyclists who get uppity in traffic & commuter congestion and take passive filtering & que jumping to another level and make it aggressive need a reality check as some usually end up getting but in general they aren't doing the motorcycle community or the general population's perception of us any favours, only cementing already bias opinions.

[YellowDog]

Greater skills = Greater confidence = More enjoyable riding.

Young riders, with peer pressure to keep up, and be as good as their personal perception says they should be, is a dangerous problem I see a lot.

Personally, I'm happy to say: "You guys are too quick for me. Don't hold back on my account. Keep going at your own pace and I'll see you later"

[T.W.R]

Staggered formation is important. It allows better visibility forward, and enables better surface appraisal for the rear rider.

Problem is, when staggered formation is adopted it encourages compression. Riders see clear space ahead and tuck up on the rider ahead.

This prevents free lateral movement by the rider ahead.

A drum that's been beaten for decades, this pic is nigh on 40yrs old itself and from a handbook for learners

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=292424&d=1389695947


Slightly different application but a good rule of thumb used by 4WD clubs on organised trips etc is give plenty of space to the vehicle ahead so it can navigate obstacles unhindered and it's the forward vehicles job to not loose sight of the vehicle behind.....keep a check of the mirrors once in a while that way everyone has plenty of space without congestion and the group travels at the pace of the slowest.

[T.W.R]

...I dislike riding around here in the summertime, my exit out of here is directly onto SH75, the Akaroa GP circuit...in the winter it is a fantastic ride, not so in the summer months...

...the road is not a fucking race track...

Take it back 50+ yrs when the majority of it was still shingle there wouldn't be so many cowboys & yahoos stroking their egos on the Akaroa Rd

2wheels4life123 on youtube is a prime example the arrogant dickheads that frequent the road and do the motorcycling community no favours

[Banditbandit]

Staggered formation is important. It allows better visibility forward, and enables better surface appraisal for the rear rider.

Problem is, when staggered formation is adopted it encourages compression. Riders see clear space ahead and tuck up on the rider ahead.

This prevents free lateral movement by the rider ahead.

Lateral movement is the key to good positioning. My three positioning motivations are surface appraisal, visibility in and out, and buffering.

I want to vary my lateral position to mitigate risk via those three motivations.

When people behind me tuck up in behind me it reduces my ability to use lateral movement to mitigate risk per my perceived cumulative assessment.

Just pay respect forward. Allow a 2 second gap to the rider ahead.




Move onto winding roads and the stagger has to go, with riders going back to single file formation, which then makes the 2 second following distance critical. This then creates a slowing of riders further back from leader.

All this works when you're riding with those of similar ability and training standard. In the absence of such, I'd say obey the 2 second rule and encourage single file riding.



This - yes - this is what I mean by people not knowing how to ride in a group.

Staggered formation must be maintained by both the rider in front and the rider behind. This means if you are on the left - stay on the left - if you are on the right, stay on the right.

Most of us riding solo use lateral movement, as Rastus says - which means we move left to start a right turn and right to start a left turn ... we move from left to right across the road.

This does not work in a group, as riders are then cutting across the lines of the riders behind. So group riding requires a small change in riding style. It also means that group rides need to keep the speed down so that riders can maintain their position WITHOUT using lateral movement. A slower speed does not require late apexing etc.

The speed is dependent on the lead rider - and as a lead rider I always keep the speed way down from what I normally ride at.

For most riders this means a conscious decision about their riding style - what many riders do not realise. It requires situational awareness. Awareness of what is happening on the road and our part in that ...

Of course - the other problem with group riding is the few crazies whose testosterone rages up and they have to prove they are faster .. thus endangering everyone else ..

[Voltaire]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8167/7463988664_2793968e84_b.jpg

" Honey....come back, I meant I'm having a MLC not a MILF....dang Press and its acronyms"

[rastuscat]

The alternative to slowing down a group ride in order to avoid riders having to move laterally bemuses me.

If people on group rides maintained the legally required following distance, or better yet, the 2 second rule, everyone could ride their chosen position without having to factor in the numpty behind them.

How hard is it to stay back?

[eldog]

The alternative to slowing down a group ride in order to avoid riders having to move laterally bemuses me.

If people on group rides maintained the legally required following distance, or better yet, the 2 second rule, everyone could ride their chosen position without having to factor in the numpty behind them.

How hard is it to stay back?

Not that hard really...

Only occasionally I need to remind myself how far back 2 sec is at varying speeds.

It is nice to cruise very slowly through town in a group

[SVboy]

Take it back 50+ yrs when the majority of it was still shingle there wouldn't be so many cowboys & yahoos stroking their egos on the Akaroa Rd

2wheels4life123 on youtube is a prime example the arrogant dickheads that frequent the road and do the motorcycling community no favours

I watched a few of his YouTube clips. What do you take issue with?

[Woodman]

There is technology in some cars today where the brakes are automatically applied if the following distance gets too close. Maybe that technology will be available on bikes too one day. As we all slow down with age such technology could benefit us all no matter how many years have been spent going to riding school or for those like myself who have never been as riding school will not slow down the aging process.

Some on here probably enjoy following their mates close.

[Scuba_Steve]

...the road is not a fucking race track...

That really depends on the road

[T.W.R]

I watched a few of his YouTube clips. What do you take issue with?

Really! you have to ask :scratch:

Most of his videos it's more a case of what don't you take issue with and on more than a couple of them there's damn close calls that could've easily ended up as fatalities....one in particular where one of the bunch on a 1098 or the likes stupidly overtakes near a blind left hander and is only a hairs breath away from becoming a hood ornament. And to cap it off he ain't that fuckin quick either just a narcissistic throttle jockey

[SVboy]

Really! you have to ask :scratch:

Most of his videos it's more a case of what don't you take issue with and on more than a couple of them there's damn close calls that could've easily ended up as fatalities....one in particular where one of the bunch on a 1098 or the likes stupidly overtakes near a blind left hander and is only a hairs breath away from becoming a hood ornament. And to cap it off he ain't that fuckin quick either just a narcissistic throttle jockey

Lol! I didn't review all his clips in detail, but from what I saw, his braking was gradual, turn in points and lines were conservative( both left and right) , with safe overtaking( from what I saw). He was not hunting apexes and had pretty modest corner speeds, esp into blind bends. He rides far slower on the road than he does on the track and knows the Akaroa GP well. He rides with a group of like minded friends, most of which are similarly experienced. Nice guy, not arrogant and just out there having fun!
Now, I believe, from your posts on KB, that you may have done the GP at pace in your earlier years?

[T.W.R]

Lol! I didn't review all his clips in detail, but from what I saw, his braking was gradual, turn in points and lines were conservative( both left and right) , with safe overtaking( from what I saw). He was not hunting apexes and had pretty modest corner speeds, esp into blind bends. He rides far slower on the road than he does on the track and knows the Akaroa GP well. He rides with a group of like minded friends, most of which are similarly experienced. Nice guy, not arrogant and just out there having fun!
Now, I believe, from your posts on KB, that you may have done the GP at pace in your earlier years?

I haven't watched all of his clips either just done quite a few :facepalm: & :shit: at some of his exploits. Dunno which ones you've watched but from you've keyed in they must be different as I've seen the total opposite of what you're suggesting. I don't see blind siding or buzzing a rider ahead of me or one who has just passed me as conservative nor popping wheelies past them or cars heading towards blind corners either. Sitting high on corners where it's notorious for cars & buses etc to straddle the white line isn't particularly the safest option either. His best option would be to vent his enthusiasm at the track & keep it there.
I wont deny what I used to get upto on the Akers many years ago and it was a hell of a lot quicker on a lot older bikes, but it was a different world and youthful stupidity soon dilutes when you really start thinking about the consequences of ones actions. I can still punt over there at a rapid rate of knots but 30 odd years of doing it builds a different type of respect for the road :yes:

[Kickaha]

Take it back 50+ yrs when the majority of it was still shingle there wouldn't be so many cowboys & yahoos stroking their egos on the Akaroa Rd

I dunno about that, Dad has a few stories about dragging bikes out of the shrubbery on that road back in the late fifties maybe early sixties

[T.W.R]

I dunno about that, Dad has a few stories about dragging bikes out of the shrubbery on that road back in the late fifties maybe early sixties

Ha yeah but what I was getting at is that there wouldn't be many of the current breed going ballistic over there ;)
Back then the majority of enjoyable country roads were still shingle.....even the NZGP was still held on a shingle track till the early 60s and to which Geoff Duke politely declined an invitation to attend and compared the ones racing to a bunch of lunatics racing on marbles :yes:

[RDJ]

'Near enough!' only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades...

[granstar]

Staggered formation is not restricted. You ride your own ride and to the road and traffic conditions which can change rapidly. In a group rides awareness of others in your group is important and a valid reason to ride with people you can trust. My group for instance in passing manoeuvre the passing bike pulls to the left after the pass to allow followers room to do so with a safer space, keeping a safe following distance so rider can use the full road if need be, leave a stop in orderly patient file, etc, there is no restriction?

The worst group rides tend to be those with people you are not accustomed to their riding skills. On these have observed idiots who pass inside, follow way too close, pass too close, speed and weave between bikes, etc. Rides to hold back on as there is never any pressure to keep up. Been on a few ride rides (not my group) where the group go full noise from A to B which is really great as by the time I arrive at the pub the shit line beer has by then been pumped into their jugs and mine is fresh.

[Woodman]

Maybe then the solution to reckless group riding could be to have a separate class of motorcycle license you have to get to participate in group rides. Pre ride safety briefings just dont work from a video I saw.

Fuck off....

[granstar]

Fuck off....

,,,,,,,,,,,,, Agree!

[caspernz]

By restricting the position riders are able to be on the road lane it gives no consideration to the likelyhood of a vehicle screwing up and the restricted group rider being in no position to swerve.

Sorry but you're shoveling bull crap again, the man below has the right idea.


Staggered formation is not restricted. You ride your own ride and to the road and traffic conditions which can change rapidly. In a group rides awareness of others in your group is important and a valid reason to ride with people you can trust. My group for instance in passing manoeuvre the passing bike pulls to the left after the pass to allow followers room to do so with a safer space, keeping a safe following distance so rider can use the full road if need be, leave a stop in orderly patient file, etc, there is no restriction?

Yep, that works well with a disciplined group :clap::2thumbsup


Maybe then the solution to reckless group riding could be to have a separate class of motorcycle license you have to get to participate in group rides. Pre ride safety briefings just dont work from a video I saw.

Oh please, you're taking this thread off topic again, stop rabbiting on about stuff you have no actual experience of.

Can we invoke rule #4 yet chaps? :shutup::innocent:

[Akzle]

Maybe then the solution to reckless group riding could be to have a separate class of motorcycle license you have to get to participate in group rides. Pre ride safety briefings just dont work from a video I saw.

ahem. how may i say this to avoid the gremwrath...

you aren't not a fuckwit.

[rastuscat]

Maybe then the solution to reckless group riding could be to have a separate class of motorcycle license you have to get to participate in group rides. Pre ride safety briefings just dont work from a video I saw.

Indicative of your propensity to "solve" problems with unrealistic and impractical solutions.

Still, I support your right to be silly.

[YellowDog]

When I used to go on large charity rides, back in the UK, they were always well marshalled. The organisers were responsible for ensuring the success of the event and below standard riders, not behaving appropriately, were given a 'Dry Slap' and then excluded, if they didn't pull their heads in. The group ride rules and formation was made clear to all, so there were no excuses.

The marshalling was almost always done by pro-instructors and cops. It only takes one or two idiots to destroy an event and their job was to identify these, as early as possible, and remove them from the equation.

The marshalling never affected my riding, but I did have mates whom were pissed off at not being allowed to do their own thing. Not quite the same as half a dozen mates doing the Coro Loop together :no: But my point is that there are tried and tested systems that work well for larger group rides.

[ellipsis]

...the only group rides I've ever been on were led by RC...everyone tried to keep up but he was too fast...

[YellowDog]

As I pointed out in a previous post this does not work in ChCh anyway when a St John Ambulance fundraising GR that had a safetly briefing was ignored by some.

It is a system that works and would also work in CHCH if it was adopted.

"safetly briefing was ignored by some" - Oh no.... doomed to failure then :killingme

[EJK]

Indicative of your propensity to "solve" problems with unrealistic and impractical solutions.

Still, I support your right to be silly.

Sometimes I wonder if you discuss about Cassina during Ride Forever courses.

[YellowDog]

I guess it would if motorbike cops joined in the group ride too. A motorbike cop in ChCh told me a few years ago most police find motorcycle riding too dangerous today however. So for it to work in ChCh there would have to be police in cars keeping the group under control.

No need to reinvent the wheel. There are systems that already do work successfully.

[awayatc]

If he did discuss my posts in his riding school classes I bet he would leave my views about shit happening at different speeds and distances when some one else is at fault out.

Not your post woman....

You as a phenomenon....

A rider/driver as thick as a post

[Woodman]

Not your post woman....

You as a phenomenon....

A rider/driver as thick as a post

Personally I have too much respect for Women to refer to cassina as one.

Fuckwit is a better name for it.

[Akzle]

Sometimes I wonder if you discuss about Cassina during Ride Forever courses.

in a general sense, i'm sure yes.

"fuckwits to avoid to prolong your good health"

[caspernz]

If he did discuss my posts in his riding school classes I bet he would leave my views about shit happening at different speeds and distances when some one else is at fault out.

You're not that special.

The group you belong to are those who believe there is nothing they can learn.

What is mildly unique is you claim the ability to form an opinion on stuff you've no personal experience of, then dispense this opinion as fact. Hence the negative feedback you experience.

By all means keep on amusing us :2thumbsup

[Racing Dave]

As seen on the TranzAlpine Scooter Safari 2016.

[rastuscat]

Well they have different licenses for different trucks and that is in the interest of safety is it not? Do we want to improve group ride safety or not? If we imposed a special license for group riding, would having to get the special license keep the crazies away? I think it would.

Do you have a better idea? I dont think just offering special group riding classes will work as you will never shake off the attraction to group rides by those that want to be seen as the fastest in the group even if it means risking death.

Strangely, my suggestion to solve group ride problems such as following too closely are based on individual behaviour. Like, it's hard to catch a school of fish, you catch lots of individual fish.

If each individual pulled their socks up, Santa wouldn't have enough socks to stow my Christmas pressies.

[rastuscat]

If he did discuss my posts in his riding school classes I bet he would leave my views about shit happening at different speeds and distances when some one else is at fault out.

EJK knows that on my courses, I raise the issue of fault, and then tell people that whose fault it is makes little difference to your broken leg, broken arm and ruptured spleen.

I then go on to talk about things we can do to prevent someone else's mistakes turning into me lying in the back of an ambulance or a hearse.

[Woodman]

When I pass opinion on not at fault crashes I have very much had experience of them unlike many on here who just take the riding school line that non at fault crashes are avoidable just as easily as situations you can get into all by yourself.

But, you moron, maybe if you were paying attention instead of relying on luck you may have not had as many accidents. You moron.

[Banditbandit]

Staggered formation is not restricted. You ride your own ride and to the road and traffic conditions which can change rapidly. In a group rides awareness of others in your group is important and a valid reason to ride with people you can trust. My group for instance in passing manoeuvre the passing bike pulls to the left after the pass to allow followers room to do so with a safer space, keeping a safe following distance so rider can use the full road if need be, leave a stop in orderly patient file, etc, there is no restriction?

The worst group rides tend to be those with people you are not accustomed to their riding skills. On these have observed idiots who pass inside, follow way too close, pass too close, speed and weave between bikes, etc. Rides to hold back on as there is never any pressure to keep up. Been on a few ride rides (not my group) where the group go full noise from A to B which is really great as by the time I arrive at the pub the shit line beer has by then been pumped into their jugs and mine is fresh.

Exactly

And I'm not talking about small group rides - or a group f friends ... I'm talking about an organized and open group ride - such as a Toy Run ... where you're going to be with people you have never met or ridden with ...

I've been on a very big and annual group ride - fucking madness - seven or eight bikes went down .. all individually .. I'll never do that run again - people were told "ride your own ride' - so they did !!! Dumb fuckers with too much testosterone ...

[granstar]

I guess it would if motorbike cops joined in the group ride too. A motorbike cop in ChCh told me a few years ago most police find motorcycle riding too dangerous today however. So for it to work in ChCh there would have to be police in cars keeping the group under control.

From experience with an annual charity run my group organised. Police were liased with and let them know our intentions, date and time to group ride through town and asked for their usual kind assistance to navigate in respect of traffic management (they had done in the past). A refusal came saying they were too busy fighting crime ( we are talking about Chernobyl of the South here). So a careful and safe run was held by ensuring with a pre ride pep talk and the group obeyed all road rules. Wouldn't you know it, close to the meet point to drop off gifts in aid of underprivileged children for Easter it was I as tail end Charlie who got pulled over and interrogated rudely by (the busy) attitude Police asking what our group were up to in a tone as if we were all some bad ass patched biker gang up to no good ; fuckers!

[granstar]

You're not that special.

The group you belong to are those who believe there is nothing they can learn.

What is mildly unique is you claim the ability to form an opinion on stuff you've no personal experience of, then dispense this opinion as fact. Hence the negative feedback you experience.

By all means keep on amusing us :2thumbsup

Nailed It! :first:

[granstar]

Strangely, my suggestion to solve group ride problems such as following too closely are based on individual behaviour. Like, it's hard to catch a school of fish, you catch lots of individual fish.

If each individual pulled their socks up, Santa wouldn't have enough socks to stow my Christmas pressies.

But have you been a good boy?

[granstar]

Sometimes I wonder if you discuss about Cassina during Ride Forever courses.

Er,,you fuckin just wouldn't :killingme:killingme:killingme

[awayatc]

Staggered formation is not . Been on a few ride rides (not my group) where the group go full noise from A to B which is really great as by the time I arrive at the pub the shit line beer has by then been pumped into their jugs and mine is fresh.

when i see alcohol on a group ride......
I am out of there.

car .....legal limit
Bike....zero limit

[caspernz]

When I pass opinion on not at fault crashes I have very much had experience of them unlike many on here who just take the riding school line that non at fault crashes are avoidable just as easily as situations you can get into all by yourself.

Look I know this is a pointless exercise, but here goes. You keep saying how accidents just drop out of thin air for you, yet if you attended some training courses you'd be able to learn situational awareness, so you can see stuff developing. It's not rocket science, it does however require you to attend with an open mind. I'll be upfront and admit that in the past, I too thought there was nothing I could do in some situations, and then I was shown how.

Will I be able to avoid all accidents? Nope, but I'll do my utmost to avoid or at least minimize the severity of an accident.

[Woodman]

Look I know this is a pointless exercise, but here goes. You keep saying how accidents just drop out of thin air for you, yet if you attended some training courses you'd be able to learn situational awareness, so you can see stuff developing. It's not rocket science, it does however require you to attend with an open mind. I'll be upfront and admit that in the past, I too thought there was nothing I could do in some situations, and then I was shown how.

Will I be able to avoid all accidents? Nope, but I'll do my utmost to avoid or at least minimize the severity of an accident.

You are right, it won't understand. It won't understand because it has had 4 or 5 accidents which were totally unavoidable by anyone ever.

[rastuscat]

My top tip for today's ride.

Don't ride like a nob. And expect everyone else to drive/ride like a nob.

More safety gems next week.

Donuts.

[skippa1]

Sickening.



How about we front foot stuff, and consider that however unlikely, no matter how flash a rider we are, it just might happen to us. Imagine that. We have the chance to change our outcomes. Wow, revelation.

m.
I am constantly amazed, when people are talking about my accident with me, how they make comments like, aw yeah, i ride really carefully, or, yeah im pretty cautious, or, i am pretty aware of my surroundings......like i Wasnt,

on a 100kmh stretch of road, when an approaching car swerves into your lane less than 50m from you, when hes doing 40-50 and you are doing 100.....no amount of care, awareness or caution is going to save your bacon or in my case, rigt leg. 1-2 seconds at best to assess and manage....

you just dont know and cant anticipate that kind of situation.....it can happen to anyone

[nzspokes]

I am constantly amazed, when people are talking about my accident with me, how they make comments like, aw yeah, i ride really carefully, or, yeah im pretty cautious, or, i am pretty aware of my surroundings......like i Wasnt,

on a 100kmh stretch of road, when an approaching car swerves into your lane less than 50m from you, when hes doing 40-50 and you are doing 100.....no amount of care, awareness or caution is going to save your bacon or in my case, rigt leg. 1-2 seconds at best to assess and manage....

you just dont know and cant anticipate that kind of situation.....it can happen to anyone

I dont think and of the smart riders here believe that being aware and well trained keeps you above the danger. Just gives you options for the ones that can be avoided.

[old slider]

I am constantly amazed, when people are talking about my accident with me, how they make comments like, aw yeah, i ride really carefully, or, yeah im pretty cautious, or, i am pretty aware of my surroundings......like i Wasnt,

on a 100kmh stretch of road, when an approaching car swerves into your lane less than 50m from you, when hes doing 40-50 and you are doing 100.....no amount of care, awareness or caution is going to save your bacon or in my case, rigt leg. 1-2 seconds at best to assess and manage....

you just dont know and cant anticipate that kind of situation.....it can happen to anyone


Thanks for sharing that Skippa1, I admire your spirit mate. I would hate to think how many times you have replayed that terrible moment in your head and the what ifs.

I am sure that most riders who learn as many motorcycle riding and associated skills as they can are still aware shit can happen, but those with these professionally taught skills may be able to get a better outcome and chance of survival than those who havn't learnt much.

[roogazza]

I think I wrote something like this years ago ? My recipe for riding and surviving !

I usually ride sunday mornings,early (have for many years).
But stay away from towns and intersections if possible. Traffic shits me .
I'm due a birthday in April , I'll be 69.
I don't ride with anyone,all my mates have since given away the bikes.
I still get along,but pick my spots carefully. I don't follow,somethings in front, I pass it.
Don't ride in wind or the wet,really fussy with the weather and road conditions.

So this is how I've lasted riding this long (54 yrs).
A good coffee and a cigar or two and I'm happy as.<_<:laugh:

[pritch]

on a 100kmh stretch of road, when an approaching car swerves into your lane less than 50m from you, when hes doing 40-50 and you are doing 100.....no amount of care, awareness or caution is going to save your bacon or in my case, rigt leg. 1-2 seconds at best to assess and manage....



Twice in recent(?) years, both times when I was comunting on the moped, I've had a car coming straight at me - on my side of the road. My options were limited on both occasions but I was lucky the drivers woke up in the nick of time.

And these fuckwits weren't foreign tourists either.

[old slider]

I think I wrote something like this years ago ? My recipe for riding and surviving !

I usually ride sunday mornings,early (have for many years).
But stay away from towns and intersections if possible. Traffic shits me .
I'm due a birthday in April , I'll be 69.
I don't ride with anyone,all my mates have since given away the bikes.
I still get along,but pick my spots carefully. I don't follow,somethings in front, I pass it.
Don't ride in wind or the wet,really fussy with the weather and road conditions.

So this is how I've lasted riding this long (54 yrs).
A good coffee and a cigar or two and I'm happy as.<_<:laugh:


I like your thinking, Now I will admit that I avoid the wet and really windy days with a passion. I hate having to spend a lot of time cleaning and drying my bike
as well as the roads around me are used a lot by heavy traffic, (water, diesel and stock effluent, not to mention large dollops of liquid salt and chemicals from the tanneries as wet skins are transported between factories can make it interesting) I also try to avoid those hours at each end of the day when the sun is getting low in the sky for pleasure rides.
I have been doing all of my riding solo and loved it. I have only just dabbled in a couple of public group rides, really enjoyed them but I decided this mornings one a miss, Good cause fund raiser with an open invitation being a mix of cars, hot rods, bikes etc doing the run, probably good as gold, but I decided against it.

[pritch]

I like your thinking, Now I will admit that I avoid the wet and really windy days with a passion.

Me too. I have had enough soakings and gale force winds over the years, I try and avoid them now. The bike is supposed to be fun. Well as much fun as the arthritis will allow.

[YellowDog]

As we're all coming out of the closet :gob:
My bike is my pride and joy. It's not a tool to get me from A to B, it is something I use for pleasure and enjoyment.

Riding in the rain, riding in heavy traffic, and generally riding at night too (MKI Tigers have terrible lights) are things I would choose not to do, unless I absolutely have to :no:

Total respect for those hardcore all weather riders whos bike is their only form of transport. That was me once too, when I had no other choices :no:

[AllanB]

2,500 kms in the car with the family over the last two weeks up either end of the South Island and I assure you that the retards are out there on four and two wheels.

[nzspokes]

As we're all coming out of the closet :gob:
My bike is my pride and joy. It's not a tool to get me from A to B, it is something I use for pleasure and enjoyment.

Riding in the rain, riding in heavy traffic, and generally riding at night too (MKI Tigers have terrible lights) are things I would choose not to do, unless I absolutely have to :no:

Total respect for those hardcore all weather riders whos bike is their only form of transport. That was me once too, when I had no other choices :no:

Im commute on the bike, I ride socially on the weekends and I ride adventure stuff. But am finding myself a lot more adverse to rainy days. Car is clocking up a few more Ks these days.

[Runty]

Im commute on the bike, I ride socially on the weekends and I ride adventure stuff. But am finding myself a lot more adverse to rainy days. Car is clocking up a few more Ks these days.I know what u mean - I also used the car a bit more in the last year as well - clocked up almost a thousand km in it!! - and I did less than 20 thousand km on the bike.
I even commuted in the car once!!! (though in my defence i did have my rear wheel in the boot as it had a nail through the tyre)

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

[nzspokes]

I know what u mean - I also used the car a bit more in the last year as well - clocked up almost a thousand km in it!! - and I did less than 20 thousand km on the bike.
I even commuted in the car once!!! (though in my defence i did have my rear wheel in the boot as it had a nail through the tyre)

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

My current car, Ive just done 10,000ks on it in 4 years. Most of that is moving kids around and taking them camping.

[pritch]

Don't use the car all that much. At a warrant check I got a warning re the back discs getting down (the front discs were new). Two warrants later I was still getting warnings for the rear discs so I asked about that.
"You've only done a thousand ks since the last warrant."

[AllanB]

Don't use the car all that much. At a warrant check I got a warning re the back discs getting down (the front discs were new). Two warrants later I was still getting warnings for the rear discs so I asked about that.
"You've only done a thousand ks since the last warrant."

You need a more interesting car!

[pritch]

You need a more interesting car!

Not really, it's far from new but it's fun to drive, it's quick, it stops, it handles. From the road test, "Better than a BMW. Not just better for the price, just better."

Bikes to me are fun, cars are a tool. It's a, "Four wheels transport the body, two wheels transport the soul" kinda thing. Even something that cost a shit load more money wouldn't be any more fun. Porche and Ferrari are out of the question financially, but my joints are at the stage where I wouldn't be able to get in or out of one of those anyway. I'm happy with what I've got.:drinkup:

[old slider]

Not really, it's far from new but it's fun to drive, it's quick, it stops, it handles. From the road test, "Better than a BMW. Not just better for the price, just better."

Bikes to me are fun, cars are a tool. It's a, "Four wheels transport the body, two wheels transport the soul" kinda thing. Even something that cost a shit load more money wouldn't be any more fun. Porche and Ferrari are out of the question financially, but my joints are at the stage where I wouldn't be able to get in or out of one of those anyway. I'm happy with what I've got.:drinkup:


Talking of joints, I parked up the Fat Bob after about two hours of fun riding around on the outskirts of town, looked at my poor ole W650 sitting unregistered/warranted etc and with the sidecar chassis and sub frame removed and looking totally unloved, sod it I thought a few laps around the neighbor hood will lubricate it and hopefully put a smile on both our dials, Pulled out the choke gave it a couple of light kicks on the kick starter and then pressed the electric start button, that instant old style gargle from the triumph impersonating exhausts, clicked smoothly into gear and away.

Oh shit this feels a tad uncomfortable on the hips, the knees are much higher than I am used to after neglecting the ole girl for so long while spending way more time on the HD cruiser. I wonder if I can fit forward controls, lol

[roogazza]

Another great Sunday fang yesterday, thought I was riding good but missed some sandy stuff on the Pahiatua track in which both wheels moved (what felt like quite a lot but maybe only a foot?). It was over before I corrected but a good reminder. The old eyes had missed it.

Couple of cigars and an Iced coffee and back home by midday.(that'll do me for a week !! :yawn:)

[old slider]

Another great Sunday fang yesterday, thought I was riding good but missed some sandy stuff on the Pahiatua track in which both wheels moved (what felt like quite a lot but maybe only a foot?). It was over before I corrected but a good reminder. The old eyes had missed it.

Couple of cigars and an Iced coffee and back home by midday.(that'll do me for a week !! :yawn:)


Glad you came through the sand ok, I am amazed at the visual gains when wearing my long vision glasses, (note not required for my driving license) but they give me a far greater depth of view and help with those little hidden leprechauns we sometimes come across hiding on the road.

[OddDuck]

On a similar note I went out to Castlepoint on Sunday, there's a twisty section leading up to a summit with a curve on the top and a gravelled area / road to the side. I found out later that some local boys had been doing donuts there on Saturday night. Guess what was scattered across the road... One oncoming (classic) car tried to warn me by putting his RH indicator on, those classic car club types are good people. There was melted tar leading up to it so I'd slowed already anyway, previous vehicles had cleared lanes, still it wasn't a nice surprise.

[GazzaH]

I think I wrote something like this years ago ? My recipe for riding and surviving !

I usually ride sunday mornings,early (have for many years).
But stay away from towns and intersections if possible. Traffic shits me .
I'm due a birthday in April , I'll be 69.
I don't ride with anyone,all my mates have since given away the bikes.
I still get along,but pick my spots carefully. I don't follow,somethings in front, I pass it.
Don't ride in wind or the wet,really fussy with the weather and road conditions.

So this is how I've lasted riding this long (54 yrs).
A good coffee and a cigar or two and I'm happy as.<_<:laugh:

I'm smitten by this idea.

Enjoyed a fab ride last Sunday morning - not heading anywhere specific like normal, just out riding for the sake of it. Breakfast was a bonus.

"Going to church" might become a semi-regular weekly event. :innocent:

[actungbaby]

[QUOTE=rastuscat;1131079790]Sickening.

Certainly I make no reference to those have departed in the recent days and distant past. I post this in the (potentially vain) hope that it might open some eyes.

So true mate i done it i made a mistake and caused a crash .me being tiped of my bike. old guy caused a crash me into the side of his car.

Only common things are me . no use being in the right looking down from perlie gates.

Biggest issue i have is i look at the closing gap not the way past . i got train myself to not to do that. .

[actungbaby]

[QUOTE=rastuscat;1131079790]Sickening.

I never been a go out and ride hundreds of Kms for the sake of it.
I just go to work (when was working ) shops etc mostly city streets.
And its enough for me sure nice to go on a trip, but i need a reason.
I think biggest improvemnt to my riding is my mature self. doesint need or think he has to be this perfect rider. i was never quick. i think us slow ones trying to be what we think . we need to do . i never scraped a foot peg.
Know i just bloody appricate that am well and i have a Motorbike.

all posts here are cool all just do or ride how we feel like . after all its fun .

Some the time its bloody awsome but 90 % average but hay i can live with that know. those special moments arent about speed though its just cool
Like hearing old song . on the radio. athough when read of someone accident fatal i do feel little guilty as feels bit selfess to think i chould leave my wife and son on there own. wonder if its worth it . i guess its because am a happier person for it.