Braking in the wet.

[chickenfunkstar]

Hi all,
I had a bit of a moment this morning on the way to uni this morning due to me not paying attention.
I was forced to brake much more heavily than I normally would in the wet. The problem was that I didn't really know how much front brake to use, I wanted to stop as fast as possible, but didn't want to lock the front brake and say slide under a bus.
I ended up going around the thing which I should have stopped for.

Is there any easy way to tell how much front brake you can use, without locking it and getting friendly with the tarmac?
I do use more rear brake in the wet but I was mainly concerned with how much front brake you could use.

Thanks CFS

[scooterboynz]

sounds like you did quite well , you managed to brake , avoid disaster and stay upright on two wheels ,,, well done! i did a riding course many years ago where we practised braking , basicly find somewhere like a carpark and practise on a wet day , dont push it too hard too soon though! or buy a big old bmw with ABS!

[Gremlin]

I don't know if there is a way to tell you how many millimetres you should pull the brake lever in by... each bike will respond in very different ways due to brake strength, bike weight balance etc.

The only thing I can say is practice and you have to "feel" what is happening with the bike.

That's why riding is so much fun. It is a very connected experience :2thumbsup

[Zapf]

find a nice surfaced road... keep ur head up and eyes to the distance... and apply maxium brake.... release it moment it locks... thats whats been taught at "Ride right Ride safe" guess only way to find out...

[cowpoos]

if you lock the front wheel up braking in the wet or dry....you will instinctivly let it go again before shit happens....but thats only if your up right...if you leaning over in a corner....you pretty much buggared...

You will be surprised at how much force you can applie to your brakes in the wet...I can do a stoppie on a trail bike in the rain on wet grass...and thats slippery...but I weight the front allittle more than usual....its something that you have to practise....and practise....and not just for the wet....the dry to...every biker should practise emergency braking regualary [< could someone tell me how to spell that]...you need to know your limits before you a forced to find them by surprise....and only by practise will you get the feel...and the feel for something is important when it involves reacting fast...

[justsomeguy]

Had a moment huh?? You must have been doing a rather naughty speed then.....:Oi:

You free this Sunday?? BRONZ - Ride Right Ride Safe Course (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=593&c=1)

By the way folks Chickenfunkstar is not a newbie he's much faster than most of those who've posted here..... so I guess we are talking about REALLY shaving off the speed here.

Oh yeah another thing - brake well before intersections and keep to the extreme left or right depending on the situation, same for green lights slow down to at least 50 kmph..... heaps of oil around.........:sick:

Use both breaks as hard as you can but first apply the front..... if I knew this before I wouldn't have rolled down 22.

[Bob]

As the others have said, practice and getting feel for your own bike is the way to go. Once you're used to it, you can brake pretty hard in the wet.

Key is, like everything else on a bike, to keep it as smooth and controlled as possible. Squeeze, don't grab at the lever etc.

I recall from training that they used to say front 70%/rear 30% in dry, but 50/50 in the wet. But then those figures probably came out of the ark! I use my front brake solely in the dry - and most of the time in the wet, come to think of it.

[FROSTY]

Its been covered off mate but in essence unless dealing with oil etc you can brake nigh on as hard in the wet as ya can in the dry.

[chickenfunkstar]

Had a moment huh?? You must have been doing a rather naughty speed then.....:Oi:

You free this Sunday?? BRONZ - Ride Right Ride Safe Course (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=593&c=1)

By the way folks Chickenfunkstar is not a newbie he's much faster than most of those who've posted here..... so I guess we are talking about REALLY shaving off the speed here.

Oh yeah another thing - brake well before intersections and keep to the extreme left or right depending on the situation, same for green lights slow down to at least 50 kmph..... heaps of oil around.........:sick:

Use both breaks as hard as you can but first apply the front..... if I knew this before I wouldn't have rolled down 22.


lol, no serious speeds involved. I'd like to say that I had to stop for some heroic reason, but I don't think anyone would believe me if I said that I had to stop quickly in order to save some school children who were being attacked by a bear. In reality I just didn't see something that I really should have.

Not sure about me being fast though...

[chickenfunkstar]

As the others have said, practice and getting feel for your own bike is the way to go. Once you're used to it, you can brake pretty hard in the wet.

Key is, like everything else on a bike, to keep it as smooth and controlled as possible. Squeeze, don't grab at the lever etc.

I recall from training that they used to say front 70%/rear 30% in dry, but 50/50 in the wet. But then those figures probably came out of the ark! I use my front brake solely in the dry - and most of the time in the wet, come to think of it.

I've heard this before and it slightly concerns me. I barely have to touch the back brake in the wet before it locks and even then it doesn't do much in the way of slowing me down. If using the back brake only is 50% of total available braking then the front brake isn't going to do much in the way of slowing me down either.

However after reading a couple of posts in this thread I probably should have used more front brake. Thanks.

[Lou Girardin]

I've heard this before and it slightly concerns me. I barely have to touch the back brake in the wet before it locks and even then it doesn't do much in the way of slowing me down. If using the back brake only is 50% of total available braking then the front brake isn't going to do much in the way of slowing me down either.

However after reading a couple of posts in this thread I probably should have used more front brake. Thanks.

The rear brake usually contributes less than 50% of your stopping power. The front does a lot more, even in the wet due to weight transfer forward. If your rear brake grabs, there are fixes for it, such as different pad materials, modifying the pads with cuts or a chamfer on the leading edge.

[FROSTY]

sounds about the same as my sv -If it helps at all ol son --Im doing full noise down the back straight at pukie and in the wet Im starting to brake at the 200 mark -I found myself overbraking leading to the hairpin and having to let the brakes off.I ended up hauling em on at the 150 and still being comfortable.
I do use a tiny bit more prebraking to settle the front end in the wet Unless your brakes have deteriorated heaps You'll be able to do the same .

[The Stranger]

We see some quite interesting reactions at the Ride Right course when people practise the emergency braking. 2 of these I feel are pertinent here.

1) If the head and eyes are up the skids (front or rear) are straight and true ie the bike does not move off line or fall over.

2) With a little practise people find that they can feel what we refer to as the pinch point (for want of a better term), the point where the front suspension is fully loaded and the brake is applied to a point just before lock up. Note some bikes/riders find this point quite easy ascertain, others don't

With practise you will find you can feel this point in both the wet and the dry.

[cowpoos]

the point where the front suspension is fully loaded and the brake is applied to a point just before lock up. Note some bikes/riders find this point quite easy ascertain, others don't

.

if front suspension is fully loaded it would be advised to see a suspension tuner for heavier springs and or correct front preload adjustment...you should never be able to use all avalible suspension travel when braking as your front wheel will hop and skip over any bumbs causing loss of traction and slides,etc...

[The Stranger]

Seriously, do I really need to elaborate here?

My apologies for giving you the impression that all whom visit the course have farked front suspension, though this has been noted on occasion. This is not the case.

My reference to fully loaded in this instance was that the front forks are fully loaded with all available weight as a result of first applying the front brake to compress the front forks as far as practically possible and thus moving as much weight as possible (ie full available weight) on to said front forks.
This is say as opposed to say applying the rear brake first which in general will mean that the bike will not compress as far on the front forks and thus the front forks will not be as "fully loaded" as they could be, thus reducing some of the front brake capacity.

[FROSTY]

can--I see your point and agree with you.-But not leading with the rear brake as a hard and fast rule I disagree with.in certain circumstances leading with the rear is a good thing.
Hmmthinking about it -I guess a newer rider having to think about what theyre doing is a hell of a lot worse than them fractionally decreasing optimum braking effort

[Skyryder]

Sudden braking in the wet can be a buggar. Nine times out of ten there just isn't time to feel the brakes and feather the bike. It's instant on and if you cock up it's instant off.

When I ride in the wet in traffic I keep the revs up. Engine braking is a safer option for adjusting speed. But in an emergency.............I just ride slower and keep a sharp eye.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

can--I see your point and agree with you.-But not leading with the rear brake as a hard and fast rule I disagree with.in certain circumstances leading with the rear is a good thing.


Been riding off and on for years but can not think of any circumstances where leading with the rear brake has an advantage over the front.

In a straight line leading with the rear can slew the bike due to road camber.

Leading with the rear in a corner can set the bike up for a high side.

Dexterity of the feet is less than the finger of in other words foot control is more difficult in precise braking.

If the back slides out this is far more difficult to control than the front locking up. When the front locks up and the brake released the front wheel realighns itself with the back due to the lighter weight.

Skyryder

[Ixion]

Been riding off and on for years but can not think of any circumstances where leading with the rear brake has an advantage over the front.

If the back slides out this is far more difficult to control than the front locking up. When the front locks up and the brake released the front wheel realighns itself with the back due to the lighter weight.

..

Gravel. Sand . Or steadying the bike through a curve before braking hard for the next curve ?

Personally I'd much prefer a locked rear than a locked front. Locked rear doesn't do anything bad so long as you don't release it suddenly. May even be handy way to slide through a corner. Good way to control a sliding front , on gravel anyway , is to lock the rear . Sort the front out , the rear will take care of itself.

[Skyryder]

Gravel. Sand . Or steadying the bike through a curve before braking hard for the next curve ?

Personally I'd much prefer a locked rear than a locked front. Locked rear doesn't do anything bad so long as you don't release it suddenly. May even be handy way to slide through a corner. Good way to control a sliding front , on gravel anyway , is to lock the rear . Sort the front out , the rear will take care of itself.

The same rules apply in both gravel or sand. You just do not apply the same amount of pressure as you would on tarmac. As for steadying the bike through the curve best way for that is to change down or roll on the juice. Both brakes on the curve yes if that the option but to lead with the rear on curve with the bike angled and a shakey bike to boot...........that's just dumb.

In the scenario that you use where the front is locked the best option is to roll the throttle. However if as you say and it becomes necessary to stop in a hurry why not apply both brakes evenly?

I am still of the opinion that there is no advantage in leading with the rear brake.

We do agree that by sorting the front out the rear will take care of itself. I alluded to that in my earlier post.


Skyryder

[cowpoos]

The same rules apply in both gravel or sand. You just do not apply the same amount of pressure as you would on tarmac. As for steadying the bike through the curve best way for that is to change down or roll on the juice. Both brakes on the curve yes if that the option but to lead with the rear on curve with the bike angled and a shakey bike to boot...........that's just dumb.

In the scenario that you use where the front is locked the best option is to roll the throttle. However if as you say and it becomes necessary to stop in a hurry why not apply both brakes evenly?

I am still of the opinion that there is no advantage in leading with the rear brake.

We do agree that by sorting the front out the rear will take care of itself. I alluded to that in my earlier post.


Skyryder

I trail brake on the road all the time...sharpens turn in and steadies the bike....I'm still happy trail braking when my toe slidder is touching the ground....I can't see ya changing down a gear while the bike is right over like that....or playing with the throttle ham fistedly.....I think your talking through a hole in your arse....so I wouldn't go around telling people they are dumb...what your typing sounds dumb

and as for appling both brakes evenly...that won't nessacarily balance the bike....there are alot of different dynamics at play on a bike...alot of weight transfer in 4 dimensions not just 3 like a car...

[cowpoos]

Been riding off and on for years but can not think of any circumstances where leading with the rear brake has an advantage over the front.

In a straight line leading with the rear can slew the bike due to road camber.

Leading with the rear in a corner can set the bike up for a high side.

Dexterity of the feet is less than the finger of in other words foot control is more difficult in precise braking.

If the back slides out this is far more difficult to control than the front locking up. When the front locks up and the brake released the front wheel realighns itself with the back due to the lighter weight.

Skyryder


if the back slides its easyer to control than the front....????? alot of people will disagree there mate!!!
release the brake and the front re-aligns itself with the back due to the lighter weight......aye?????....did you just make that up? sounds like it...the reason it re-aligns its self is because it starts spining around again...giving back control to the rider...have you tryed to turn with locked brakes on a car....can't do it!!!! it coz the wheels arn't going around...

think about it!!!!!!