BOOS Hurting Us

[rastuscat]

Brake Occasional Overuse Syndrome is hurting us.

It's when we panic because we are travelling what we perceive to be too fast, so we shove the brakes on in a corner, instead of trusting the bike to take the corner.

Most bikes are far, far more capable of going around corners than we are. We have to gain the confidence to allow bikes to flow in corners, instead of stabbing brakes on at lean angles beyond where braking is a good idea.

I've posted this in Wannabe & Newbie Bikers, as it's something that a lot of us learned not to do by losing skin in the process. With experience you can learn how much brake can be used at lean angle, and how gently to apply that braking. But when you're starting out it's a good idea to apply the Number 1 Rule on braking in corners. Don't.

Trust your bike. Let it do what it's designed to do. Head up, look through your corner, allow the bike to flow.

Of course, avoiding excess speed into corners is the first step to avoid having to brake. Amongst other good ideas.

Avoid BOOS.

[Murray]

Booze is not hurting me. I quite enjoy it!

[Akzle]

don't use your brakes... they just slow you down :whistle:

[rastuscat]

don't use your brakes... they just slow you down :whistle:

Vote Azkill

[caseye]

Vote Azkill

Now you've done it!
I keep telling you, all of you, don't feed IT!. Then, maybe just maybe it'll FUCK OFF!

[Akzle]

I agree with you rastus that it is possible to apply the brakes on a lean in a corner without coming off. Some on here when this topic came up last year said it was impossible when I said I could do it. The secret as you said is how much brake you apply. Some on here would possibly crash a few times before they get it right.

you're a fuckwit.

[BMWST?]

the cornering it self slows you down.And keep lookig round the corner

[AllanB]

I've had a couple Sunday night F-you work Tomorrow wines and misread your title.

I though this was a post about BOOBS not braking.

Mind you I'd brake very hard for Boobs.

There is a T-shirt right there - "I brake for Boobs"

Or

Brake for Boobs
Vote Akzle

[ellipsis]

...throw caution to the wind,
trust your tyres,
watch out for bumble bees...

[rastuscat]

Further to my OP, the amount of brakes you can use in a corner is inversely proportional to lean angle.

The more lean angle, the less brakes.

And if applying brakes in a corner (refer to Rule 1, Dont) it has to be gentle application to avoid significant weight transfer.

But always look back to Rule 1 for braking in corners. Don't

[jellywrestler]

I just apply light pressure with 1 finger on the brake.

explain that in our terms as i heard you were from gore and only had three fingers.

[pritch]

Keith Code and others describe this in money terms. You have precisely $1.00 worth of grip - no more. If the tyres are using 80c worth of your grip cornering and you apply 30c worth of braking you will likely be on your arse. Code will phrase it more elegantly than that, but you get the picture.

I get the impression that a lot of KBers have read Code or watched his DVD. The fortunate few will have attended his riding school. It therefore is not at all credible that Cassina was a lone voice in arguing what is common knowledge..

[Voltaire]

Superbike School said to get your braking done before the corner, and slight throttle after that to keep the bike stable.

Riding School Pffft....what do they know eh Cassy?

[pritch]

Superbike School said to get your braking done before the corner, and slight throttle after that to keep the bike stable.

Riding School Pffft....what do they know eh Cassy?

Code has described trail braking as "an elegant solution", and it is a useful skill to have.

[Cosmik de Bris]

Yes, thanks Mr Cat, that article you posted in the other forum was really useful I thought.

Cheers

[Honest Andy]

explain that in our terms as i heard you were from gore and only had three fingers.

You make it sound like a birth defect... she's got all ten, it's just the 7/3 combination

[caspernz]

Brake Occasional Overuse Syndrome is hurting us.

Avoid BOOS.

And here I thought you were talking about townies' massaging the brake pedal on the open road, whenever they spot a camera van, even if already doing 20 or so under the posted limit...:sweatdrop:facepalm::shutup::innocent::eek 5::oi-grr:

[release_the_bees]

The first advice that I was given back in the day was "if you think that you're going too fast for a corner, lean more. You've got more grip than you think you do, even in the wet." That advice definitely saved my bacon a couple of times early doors.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Akzle]

...perhaps... attempting...tried... maybe ....

you're a fuckwit.

[pritch]

The first advice that I was given back in the day was "if you think that you're going too fast for a corner, lean more. You've got more grip than you think you do, even in the wet."


That advice is usually summed up as, “push harder on the inside handlebar”.

[MD]

The issue is not whether you do or don't apply brakes in a corner, or in a straight line for that matter.

It is the rate and speed that you apply the brakes that determines how much you stay in control and upright. A bike's suspension/chassis/tyres do not like sudden surprises. I've witnessed up close a few times riders in front of me high side out of a corner on track days because they impatiently 'snapped' the throttle open to full lock as fast as possible and wondered why the rear end dumped them. Same principle applies when braking.

Bikes respond best to smooth inputs. Smooth flowing motion is how I would best describe any change of input (steering/braking/accelerating). The 2 or 3 stage braking method WORKS. Even through a corner you can apply more braking leading into a lean than many would expect and this can be incrementally continued through the corner.

Pritch's $1.00 worth of grip analogy sums it up perfectly.

[FJRider]

explain that in our terms as i heard you were from gore and only had three fingers.

Still good for two finger braking ... :cool:

[Moi]

... The 2 or 3 stage braking method WORKS...

Can you explain?

[granstar]

The first advice that I was given back in the day was "if you think that you're going too fast for a corner, lean more. You've got more grip than you think you do, even in the wet." That advice definitely saved my bacon a couple of times early doors.



Agree with that as long as tyres (pressures) are good. Lean in more, don't button off, and smoothly accelerate out.
A technique of read the road conditions to pick a line to suit road contour beforehand (vanishing point), slow bike a little going in, here I typically use engine brakes as both my older twin bikes are great for that where sports bike brakes are applied if too hot pre-entry. Look at exit and roll out smoothly with engine power works for me, at times get away with no lean by tilting the head, depends on corner.

Going in too hot certainly happens, but panic braking on an angle is a bad undesirable and dangerous mix.

[granstar]

explain that in our terms as i heard you were from gore and only had three fingers.

Nice piece of bait there. Gore people always need two fingers in their nostrils (due to smell of Mataura) so it will only be one finger braking ( and you do not know where that has been), so I suggest bloody dangerous practice, Gorgons should not ride motorcycles or make wishy washy comment ... especially if their name starts with a C.

Um, the 5 finger death punch .. I come from Mataura, but can live with that :drinknsin

[MD]

Can you explain - 2 or 3 stage braking?

Well worth practicing for panic braking - on a clear empty straight road.

Stage braking requires some self control to resist the urge in a panic situation to just 'grab a handful' of the brake lever in one action squeeze the dear life out of it. This creates a shock to the whole bike's composure and could send you straight into skidding or a stoppie. Neither of which will do stuff all to reduce your speed. Certainly when leaned or wet it will dump you.

The better way is to;
first apply a gentle squeeze- just enough to smoothly transfer the bike + rider weight towards the front wheel and to firm up the forks, which will in turn press down on the front tyre and increase the size of the contact patch. This is just for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds (depends on how little time you have before impact!
Second stage is increase pressure on the lever i.e. squeeze harder - but still not maximum force if you can resist the urge. Now the front tyre really starts to GRIP, very important that, and what you really need instead of skidding.
Third stage - full tit squeeze on the lever. , a second or two later and you can now go for broke and squeeze the hell on the lever. By now the tyre has reached it's maximum ability to GRIP, the bike has some degree of composure. This is what ABS does but by giving the lever progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better.

When I first experimented doing stoppies this is just what you needed. Get the forks compressed into a 'stiffy' and the front tyre spread for maximum grip before the big squeeze.

Another way to explain it would be if your measured how much effort you applied when squeezing the brake lever at 1 for the lightest of touches and 10 absolute hard as possible. Then you would squeeze lever a second each at say 3, then 6 then 10.

[Akzle]

. This is what ABS does but by giving the lever progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better.


i'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. ABS is a direct result of failing to train drivers/riders in progressive braking (what you describe). and the innate woman reaction of panic braking.

it functions best when you "grab a handful" - the computer then maintains traction-point braking to decelerate you maximumly, while still giving you steering and shit.
not that women use that steering as they're too busy driving into shit. (target fixation)

someone tell me i'm wrong... g'wan.

[MD]

i'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. ABS is a direct result of failing to train drivers/riders in progressive braking (what you describe). and the innate woman reaction of panic braking.

it functions best when you "grab a handful" - the computer then maintains traction-point braking to decelerate you maximumly, while still giving you steering and shit.
not that women use that steering as they're too busy driving into shit. (target fixation)

someone tell me i'm wrong... g'wan.
In a car maybe slamming full tit with ABS alone is best. I reckon bikes react differently to sudden changes. But shit yeah ABS on bikes does do an amazing job.

[caspernz]

Well worth practicing for panic braking - on a clear empty straight road.

Stage braking requires some self control to resist the urge in a panic situation to just 'grab a handful' of the brake lever in one action squeeze the dear life out of it. This creates a shock to the whole bike's composure and could send you straight into skidding or a stoppie. Neither of which will do stuff all to reduce your speed. Certainly when leaned or wet it will dump you.

The better way is to;
first apply a gentle squeeze- just enough to smoothly transfer the bike + rider weight towards the front wheel and to firm up the forks, which will in turn press down on the front tyre and increase the size of the contact patch. This is just for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds (depends on how little time you have before impact!
Second stage is increase pressure on the lever i.e. squeeze harder - but still not maximum force if you can resist the urge. Now the front tyre really starts to GRIP, very important that, and what you really need instead of skidding.
Third stage - full tit squeeze on the lever. , a second or two later and you can now go for broke and squeeze the hell on the lever. By now the tyre has reached it's maximum ability to GRIP, the bike has some degree of composure. This is what ABS does but by giving the lever progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better.

When I first experimented doing stoppies this is just what you needed. Get the forks compressed into a 'stiffy' and the front tyre spread for maximum grip before the big squeeze.

Another way to explain it would be if your measured how much effort you applied when squeezing the brake lever at 1 for the lightest of touches and 10 absolute hard as possible. Then you would squeeze lever a second each at say 3, then 6 then 10.


i'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. ABS is a direct result of failing to train drivers/riders in progressive braking (what you describe). and the innate woman reaction of panic braking.

it functions best when you "grab a handful" - the computer then maintains traction-point braking to decelerate you maximumly, while still giving you steering and shit.
not that women use that steering as they're too busy driving into shit. (target fixation)

someone tell me i'm wrong... g'wan.

You're wrong Akzle, MD has it sorted.

If you snatch the brake and lock the tyre up you've induced a skid, yes the ABS saves your arse but you're also now taking longer to stop. The method laid out by MD works well if practised by a decent rider, for those who don't give a monkeys about practising emergency stops...oh well there's the ABS to fall back on.

[kiwi cowboy]

I just apply light pressure with 1 finger on the brake.

Have you got one of them handy rear brake levers on ya handle bars?.
Comments on that and which brake is better?.

[actungbaby]

the cornering it self slows you down.And keep lookig round the corner

I used push the front to slow the bike i know its not a good idea .

Put i enjoyed it ;-) hehe but i was serious thats what used to do .

I whould never dream about braking with the front while leaning thats a race track thing.

And thats only to get better lap times what idiots do that on the street . whats the point.

I mean fine if you enjoy scaring yourself im not into that .

[actungbaby]

I've had a couple Sunday night F-you work Tomorrow wines and misread your title.

I though this was a post about BOOBS not braking.

Mind you I'd brake very hard for Boobs.

There is a T-shirt right there - "I brake for Boobs"

Or

Brake for Boobs
Vote Akzle

I just glance left or right isint that what where taught look both ways dangerous curves ;-) am allowed to look . two sec rule or else its perving.

[Akzle]

, yes the ABS saves your arse but you're also now taking longer to stop.

you reckon?? i don't believe you

[Akzle]

In a car maybe slamming full tit with ABS alone is best. I reckon bikes react differently to sudden changes. But shit yeah ABS on bikes does do an amazing job.

never had a car or bike with ABS.

also never been in a situation i'd need to use it.

you're right on about the staged/progressive braking. and that sudden or callous input is risky.
i still disagree about your ABS comment. and will until i see some evidence

[caspernz]

you reckon?? i don't believe you


never had a car or bike with ABS.

also never been in a situation i'd need to use it.

you're right on about the staged/progressive braking. and that sudden or callous input is risky.
i still disagree about your ABS comment. and will until i see some evidence

There you go, you've never had car or bike with ABS...

The 3 stage braking method, set-up, hard application, let-off at end, works in all vehicles. I've gotten my trainees at work to do it in a 50 ton truck even.

Especially on a bike, being smooth in the initial application, instead of just grabbing a handful, allows suspension to load up and front tyre to start to flatten out. Then when you squeeze the lever back to the bar, you've now generated so much grip you'll find the ABS may not even kick in unless you encounter a surface variation. The guys teaching the Rideforever stuff demonstrate this technique as well, because it works.

But yeah, until you have a vehicle with ABS and get to try it for yourself, I can accept you'll struggle to believe it :innocent::shutup:

[Navy Boy]

Another factor here...

If you ride a Harley (like my 48 for example) the sound of scraping metal usually means that you need to brake as you can't lean it over any further...

Believe me - You don't need to practice this very often before the message of 'Slow down and stop riding like a dweeb in a hurry' hits home.

And yes, the first time this happened to me I did what most people do and grabbed the front brake rather hard. Thankfully it was dry and I had some room to spare.

I stopped for a tactical cup of tea very shortly thereafter :rolleyes:

As for ABS - I was a sceptic - Until I rode a bike fitted with it and needed it in a hurry. Compensation for a lack of training/large cahunas (Delete as applicable)? Possibly but to be frank I didn't ask myself that at the time. :2thumbsup

[Akzle]

There you go, you've never had car or bike with ABS... But yeah, until you have a vehicle with ABS and get to try it for yourself, I can accept you'll struggle to believe it :innocent::shutup
hardly relevant. if you read the next line i wrote.
i've tripped ABS (deliberately) in a few cars. but still doesn't alter my stance.


The 3 stage braking method, set-up, hard application, let-off at end, works in all vehicles. I've gotten my trainees at work to do it in a 50 ton truck even.

Especially on a bike, being smooth in the initial application, instead of just grabbing a handful, allows suspension to load up and front tyre to start to flatten out. Then when you squeeze the lever back to the bar, you've now generated so much grip you'll find the ABS may not even kick in unless you encounter a surface variation. The guys teaching the Rideforever stuff demonstrate this technique as well, because it works.

:

i'm not arguing against progressive braking. :weird:
the point about loading suspension and smooth weight transfer, bigger contact patch etc is valid, but doesn't negate the fact that ABS is DESIGNED to mitgate the consequences of panic braking. that is, full braking from the outset.

if ABS doesn't "kick in" then you've done your job in braking well.

[Akzle]

:

As for ABS ... Compensation for a lack of training

this. and that is all.

[Woodman]

ABS in cars with stability control etc means the only training you need is "brake hard and steer away from the hazard" Old school braking techniques aren't required IMHO.

Also I brake in corners on my bike quite a lot. May have something to do with the fact it is a dual purpose bike with aggressive knobblys which I don't particularly trust on the road but it seems to work.

[Navy Boy]

this. and that is all.

Yep - I can see your point Akzle.

In theory we shouldn't need to have/rely upon ABS or Traction Control. I've done plenty of training in this area both in the road environment as well as on the track.

All of which taught me that I'm the limiting factor; not the bike.

My 48 doesn't have ABS (It's one of the things I like about it - The simplicity and purity that is) so you learn how to handle a skid when, not if, it happens.

I've no issue with admitting that I enjoy riding ABS-equipped bikes too though and that knowing it's there is reasuring.

Each to their own fella.

[rastuscat]

Loving reading this thread which has
devolved somewhat. Lots of good tips though. Cheers for the post about the stages of progressive braking.

Both my bikes have ABS. I train to brake efficiently without engaging it, but it doesn't bother me that it's there.

I'm not a purist.

Donuts.

[pritch]

at times get away with no lean by tilting the head, .



Not sure what you mean by this. The head should be kept as near vertical as practicable. The horizon is part of your sense of balance. If cornering on a bike you don't really want to be affecting your balance by sending your brain confusing information. Check photos of GP riders, even at the extreme angles of lean they use, they are keeping their head as near vertical as possible.

Re ABS, nobody can outbrake ABS in a one-off panic stop situation. OK some riders have done so after a number of "warmups", but in the real world you don't get any warmups.

It's likely that in the not too far distant future ABS will be compulsory on all road bikes anyway, and that won't be a bad thing.

[old slider]

Nice thread

Some how by sheer luck or maybe it arrived from riding/falling off lots of bikes as a youngster that I developed progressive braking as the norm.

I also noticed that I do it a lot when driving around city streets, at all intersections and when coming up to stop signs, traffic lights etc.

My thinking is that by flashing the brake lights several times it may hopefully alert any following vehicles to the fact that I am actually there.

[Viking01]

Loving reading this thread which has
devolved somewhat. Lots of good tips though. Cheers for the post about the stages of progressive braking.

Both my bikes have ABS. I train to brake efficiently without engaging it, but it doesn't bother me that it's there.

I'm not a purist.

Donuts.


Rastus,
Interesting to see your comments, especially as you ride ABS machines
as well as do rider training.

My VFR is non ABS, so "progressive braking" on the front (as described
in the three step process by MD in post #31) has always been the way
to do it. [The VFR has linked brakes, so I get a little braking and squat
at the rear in step 1 as well].

But I'm honestly curious about your comment "I train to brake efficiently
without engaging it". And why.

Not having ridden a modern machine with ABS, I don't have any feeling
what the "braking experience" is like when ABS does kick in.

If ABS allows you maximum front braking right up to the point of lockup,
does this not mean your practice "gives away" a small amount of braking
performance ?

Or do you prefer to "keep a little in reserve", knowing that you can brake
even harder still if needed ?

Interested to read your reply.

Cheers,
Viking.

[Moi]

Well worth practicing for panic braking - on a clear empty straight road.

Stage braking requires some self control to resist the urge in a panic situation to just 'grab a handful' of the brake lever in one action squeeze the dear life out of it. This creates a shock to the whole bike's composure and could send you straight into skidding or a stoppie. Neither of which will do stuff all to reduce your speed. Certainly when leaned or wet it will dump you.

... Another way to explain it would be if your measured how much effort you applied when squeezing the brake lever at 1 for the lightest of touches and 10 absolute hard as possible. Then you would squeeze lever a second each at say 3, then 6 then 10.

Cheers for the very full explanation. I was thinking that was what you meant but still asked in case there was something you'd say that was either new to me or reminded me of what was needed. Considering it's blowing and pouring down outside, I think I'll leave it for another day to go and practise some emergency braking...

[Moi]

never had a car or bike with ABS.

also never been in a situation i'd need to use it.

you're right on about the staged/progressive braking. and that sudden or callous input is risky.
i still disagree about your ABS comment. and will until i see some evidence

You might find this interesting...

and then might not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T3clFrB8U

[Akzle]

You might find this interesting...

and then might not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T3clFrB8U

i might except i dont jewtube. summarise, or link an article or something.

[Moi]

i might except i dont jewtube. summarise, or link an article or something.

The blurb under the video...

This is a great introduction to emergency braking for learner-drivers and newly licensed drivers, as well as an excellent refresher on the subject for drivers who have been driving for quite some time. How to stop your car in an emergency shows you the four key things you must do if you want to stop your car in the least possible distance when an emergency presents itself on the road. The techniques are both preventative (ie - they show you how you can prevent a dangerous situation from becoming critical and requiring an emergency stop) and also deal with the 'how to' aspect of stopping in the least possible distance. The latest brake technologies - ABS (the anti-lock braking system), EBD (electronic brake-force distribution) and EBD (emergency brake assist) are all explained as well. (And why you definitely want them in the vehicle you are driving, when the chips are down.)

[Akzle]

" The latest brake technologies - ABS (the anti-lock braking
system), EBD (electronic brake-force distribution) and EBD (emergency
brake assist) are all explained as well."

i dont want them "explained"

i have a fair idea of what they are and how they work.

can anyone actually prove " by giving the lever
progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better"
without waffling off about some other shit?

that was all i had issue with. one thing. get around, fucksakes.

[pritch]

can anyone actually prove " by giving the lever
progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better"
without waffling off about some other shit.

No proof but...

That Youtube article is quite good, among other things he is telling the unskilled drivers that they should just mash the brake pedal as hard as they can and let the tech sort it out.

On a bike if you didn’t load the front, the ABS might kick in a bit earlier than if you loaded the front first, but then you’d need to consider the time you were wasting on the weight transfer.

Most riders don’t use the brake hard enough to lock the front wheel at speed anyway.

How many of you who have ABS on your bike have had it kick in on dry seal?

[rastuscat]

But I'm honestly curious about your comment "I train to brake efficiently without engaging it". And why.

When I practise emergency stops (it's just part of my riding routine, maybe each week, maybe each fortnight, it's not special) I try to stop as quickly as I can.

If the ABS engages, I just regard that with the wildly enthusiastic thought best described as "Meh".

I basically don't care if the ABS engages. I just wanna stop fast. I try to get lots of grip into the front tyre by progressively loading the weight forward and spreading the contact patch out, while at the same time gaining extra stability in the stop by using the back brake as hard as I can without locking it.

It's just kind of fine tuning. If I can brake up to just before the point where point where ABS says "I got this", that stops me pretty damn hard.

It also trains me. I get used to that point through practise. Kind of ironically, as I tend to try to ride in a manner so that nothing should ever become an emergency, then I train for an emergency stop just in case.

I have to think a very long way back (like, years) to when I last had to emergency brake. That's a product of riding with awareness.

[AllanB]

I have to think a very long way back (like, years) to when I last had to emergency brake. That's a product of riding with awareness.

There is nothing quite like that feeling when you have to slow down very rapidly and suddenly become aware just how fast you are travelling.................

[Akzle]

just mash the brake pedal as hard as they can and let the tech sort it out.

On a bike if you didn’t load the front, the ABS might kick in a bit earlier than if you loaded the front first, but then you’d need to consider the time you were wasting on the weight transfer.?

which is what i'm trying to determine. i don't believe proper braking and ABS go together at all.

[Viking01]

But I'm honestly curious about your comment "I train to brake efficiently without engaging it". And why.

When I practise emergency stops (it's just part of my riding routine, maybe each week, maybe each fortnight, it's not special) I try to stop as quickly as I can.

If the ABS engages, I just regard that with the wildly enthusiastic thought best described as "Meh".

I basically don't care if the ABS engages. I just wanna stop fast. I try to get lots of grip into the front tyre by progressively loading the weight forward and spreading the contact patch out, while at the same time gaining extra stability in the stop by using the back brake as hard as I can without locking it.

It's just kind of fine tuning. If I can brake up to just before the point where point where ABS says "I got this", that stops me pretty damn hard.

It also trains me. I get used to that point through practise. Kind of ironically, as I tend to try to ride in a manner so that nothing should ever become an emergency, then I train for an emergency stop just in case.

I have to think a very long way back (like, years) to when I last had to emergency brake. That's a product of riding with awareness.


Had just wondered whether there was some technical reason that would
have been worth knowing about. Excellent. Answers my question. Thanks.

Cheers,
Viking

[granstar]

Not sure what you mean by this. The head should be kept as near vertical as practicable. The horizon is part of your sense of balance. If cornering on a bike you don't really want to be affecting your balance by sending your brain confusing information. Check photos of GP riders, even at the extreme angles of lean they use, they are keeping their head as near vertical as possible.

.

Like this... https://youtu.be/aSwRKByIrjI

came from here http://www.ridinginthezone.com/body-position-tips-2/

[george formby]

But I'm honestly curious about your comment "I train to brake efficiently without engaging it". And why.

When I practise emergency stops (it's just part of my riding routine, maybe each week, maybe each fortnight, it's not special) I try to stop as quickly as I can.

If the ABS engages, I just regard that with the wildly enthusiastic thought best described as "Meh".

I basically don't care if the ABS engages. I just wanna stop fast. I try to get lots of grip into the front tyre by progressively loading the weight forward and spreading the contact patch out, while at the same time gaining extra stability in the stop by using the back brake as hard as I can without locking it.

It's just kind of fine tuning. If I can brake up to just before the point where point where ABS says "I got this", that stops me pretty damn hard.

It also trains me. I get used to that point through practise. Kind of ironically, as I tend to try to ride in a manner so that nothing should ever become an emergency, then I train for an emergency stop just in case.

I have to think a very long way back (like, years) to when I last had to emergency brake. That's a product of riding with awareness.

This. Practice.

I still do the same when I get the opportunity. I don't have ABS but the bike will leave a shadow of rubber on the road without locking up. It's a fine line at that point...

Moi, rain is the perfect time to practice and be awed by the grip of modern rubber. Probably most pertinent to when you need the skills, too.

Speaking of which - this I feel is the advantage of ABS if you can brake with control. Regardless of how you good you are it's impossible to predict how much grip you have over the ground you cover with the anchor out. Saving a lock up is another skill set and best learned in a grassy paddock on a cheap bike.

I'm no fan of braking in a corner, it generally means I have really screwed up my entry and the bike gets wilful. Braking into a corner is a different matter. For years the tread on my front tyre had eyelashes due to holding the front brake on into the apex. Yes, muppetry, I know. Never had an issue with grip or road position, though. The rear brake is more effective for tightening the turn and evading those who do not understand the white line.
Another skill best learned in a grassy paddock.

But yeah, practice.

[rastuscat]

When I started this thread I was looking for a constructive discussion.

And I got one. My faith in humanity is restored.

5 pages, and still I've not seen anyone called a f***wit.

[Berries]

Post 7 I think.

[caspernz]

When I started this thread I was looking for a constructive discussion.

And I got one. My faith in humanity is restored.

5 pages, and still I've not seen anyone called a f***wit.

Maybe we can take this topic you kicked off, in a slightly different direction then Pete?

Was talking with one of my trainees yesterday on a related topic, he'd identified (not entirely accurately I might add) that a lot of Harley riders struggled with corners. So when we'd done our debrief at the end of our ride, we got back to the comment he'd made with some passion. Now I don't necessarily disagree with him that there are a good number of Harley riders who struggle to make good progress on twisty bits of road. Been out with a certain chap on a Road King that same day, and he certainly knew how to make progress around bends...

The BOOS syndrome you started has another component that may need pointing out. I'm possibly going to get shot down for this, but I reckon there are bike riders and then there are guys with bikes. We all know them, for they come out every summer. Rego on hold for the winter, then come summer the bike gets dusted off and into the wild blue yonder the guys with bikes go...some are Harleys for sure, but in fairness there's plenty of sportier bikes that struggle with bendy bits of road, when piloted by a certain class of rider. And that class of rider certainly exhibits the BOOS symptoms.

By comparison, take a year round rider and the skills stay crisp and it sure as heck shows.

My five cents :innocent:

[Akzle]

.

5 pages.

you need to sort your settings out old son. shit's only 2 pages.

[Akzle]

Maybe we can take this topic you kicked off, in a slightly different direction then Pete?...:

-or- instead of tarring a certain population because of a possibly relevant behaviour (ergo possibly irrelevant), we could assess their competency on an individual basis.

while most of it IS perishable skills, and competency is developed through practice, to automatically assume someone who rides a hardley/stays warm in winter/prefers dunhill blue is a lesser operator for it, is just that: an assumption.


personally. i treat every other road user as a potential c*ssina. until they demonstrate otherwise.

[rastuscat]

Maybe we can take this topic you kicked off, in a slightly different direction then Pete?

Was talking with one of my trainees yesterday on a related topic, he'd identified (not entirely accurately I might add) that a lot of Harley riders struggled with corners. So when we'd done our debrief at the end of our ride, we got back to the comment he'd made with some passion. Now I don't necessarily disagree with him that there are a good number of Harley riders who struggle to make good progress on twisty bits of road. Been out with a certain chap on a Road King that same day, and he certainly knew how to make progress around bends...

The BOOS syndrome you started has another component that may need pointing out. I'm possibly going to get shot down for this, but I reckon there are bike riders and then there are guys with bikes. We all know them, for they come out every summer. Rego on hold for the winter, then come summer the bike gets dusted off and into the wild blue yonder the guys with bikes go...some are Harleys for sure, but in fairness there's plenty of sportier bikes that struggle with bendy bits of road, when piloted by a certain class of rider. And that class of rider certainly exhibits the BOOS symptoms.

By comparison, take a year round rider and the skills stay crisp and it sure as heck shows.

My five cents :innocent:

That's worth at least 10 cents.

It'd be interesting to see the correlation between the crash rate and the seasons. That'd confirm your hypothesis, I expect.

[caspernz]

to automatically assume someone who rides a hardley/stays warm in winter/prefers dunhill blue is a lesser operator for it, is just that: an assumption.

Well you know Akzle, you've jumped to a bit of a conclusion there...you didn't read what I wrote aye? My trainee had the Harley = slow cornering mindset. I corrected that to a somewhat less biased mindset, can't walk him back to the straight and narrow in one fell swoop you know.

As you were :clap:

[Akzle]

Well you know Akzle, you've jumped to a bit of a conclusion there...you didn't read what I wrote aye? My trainee had the Harley = slow cornering mindset. I corrected that to a somewhat less biased mindset, can't walk him back to the straight and narrow in one fell swoop you know.

As you were :clap:


i read it that you thought part/summer time riders (the behavior i was referencing as irrelevant) were lesser mortals...

[FJRider]

It'd be interesting to see the correlation between the crash rate and the seasons. That'd confirm your hypothesis, I expect.

What would it actually confirm ... logic would dictate that if there were more riders on the road in summer ... more would be expected to be involved in an accident. As a riding instructor, which group of riders would you expect to be the larger of those involved in accidents ... The fast confident ones or the slower less confident ones ... ???

Would the accident causes be likely to be the same for both groups ... ??

[Voltaire]

In this thread is ABS and acronym for what Axley spouts?

Oh red rep Rob.....did you tell a Mod too? "*clicks "view post"* *regrets*. one'd think you'd get tired of being lame. obvs nt. so, like, go tuck yourself in.":laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

[awayatc]

It's all about time in saddle and practice.
People like Rastuscat will be better riders then me.

I go to sea for weeks on end and then have all sorts of things to catch up on.... riding being just one of them.

Every time I get back on the bike I know that I need to re familiarise myself again.

Some of the basics I have to very deliberately do and critically analyse. ...
After a few days of that I feel back in control.
Riding courses are very helpfull.
When you can't or don't self criticise anymore you risk becoming a statistic

[Ulsterkiwi]

Well worth practicing for panic braking - on a clear empty straight road.

Stage braking requires some self control to resist the urge in a panic situation to just 'grab a handful' of the brake lever in one action squeeze the dear life out of it. This creates a shock to the whole bike's composure and could send you straight into skidding or a stoppie. Neither of which will do stuff all to reduce your speed. Certainly when leaned or wet it will dump you.

The better way is to;
first apply a gentle squeeze- just enough to smoothly transfer the bike + rider weight towards the front wheel and to firm up the forks, which will in turn press down on the front tyre and increase the size of the contact patch. This is just for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds (depends on how little time you have before impact!
Second stage is increase pressure on the lever i.e. squeeze harder - but still not maximum force if you can resist the urge. Now the front tyre really starts to GRIP, very important that, and what you really need instead of skidding.
Third stage - full tit squeeze on the lever. , a second or two later and you can now go for broke and squeeze the hell on the lever. By now the tyre has reached it's maximum ability to GRIP, the bike has some degree of composure. This is what ABS does but by giving the lever progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better.

When I first experimented doing stoppies this is just what you needed. Get the forks compressed into a 'stiffy' and the front tyre spread for maximum grip before the big squeeze.

Another way to explain it would be if your measured how much effort you applied when squeezing the brake lever at 1 for the lightest of touches and 10 absolute hard as possible. Then you would squeeze lever a second each at say 3, then 6 then 10.


I like your description. The thing I will pick up on is "depends on how little time you have before impact" I defy anyone with half a brain cell to explain to me after thinking about this that its smart, acceptable, good riding technique or even remotely not idiocy to ride so close to the arse of the vehicle in front of you you can read their WOF sticker. I see this happening EVERY SINGLE DAY. People on bikes paying absolutely no regard to how close they are to the vehicle in front or how long it will take them to react never mind begin braking effectively.
As I said, I like your description and is a terrific skill to work on and to practice so you can retain it. However, without giving yourself time to use the technique its all academic really. First and foremost (for me anyway) is good forward observation, that will give you space and time to call on all your other skills. What you talked about uses up well over 2 seconds once you include a response time. Too short a following distance simply does not allow that amount of time.

[george formby]

I like your description. The thing I will pick up on is "depends on how little time you have before impact" I defy anyone with half a brain cell to explain to me after thinking about this that its smart, acceptable, good riding technique or even remotely not idiocy to ride so close to the arse of the vehicle in front of you you can read their WOF sticker. I see this happening EVERY SINGLE DAY. People on bikes paying absolutely no regard to how close they are to the vehicle in front or how long it will take them to react never mind begin braking effectively.
As I said, I like your description and is a terrific skill to work on and to practice so you can retain it. However, without giving yourself time to use the technique its all academic really. First and foremost (for me anyway) is good forward observation, that will give you space and time to call on all your other skills. What you talked about uses up well over 2 seconds once you include a response time. Too short a following distance simply does not allow that amount of time.

Following distance is a biggie. I like expansive views.
Having said that I have laid a bike down rather than hit a vehicle seated. It was a big truck trying to get out of a narrow road onto a narrow road at night. By the time I realised what I was going to hit stopping was not an option. Plan B was an "oh fuck lie down" and pray to ATGATT.

[release_the_bees]

I defy anyone with half a brain cell to explain to me after thinking about this that its smart, acceptable, good riding technique or even remotely not idiocy to ride so close to the arse of the vehicle in front of you you can read their WOF sticker.

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.


Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.


Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

I may love you. Depends on if you voted for Winston or not, really.

[Moi]

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.

+1

I'm with you on this... Whether I'm riding or driving, I leave a gap that I like so I can see what's happening ahead - especially if you're following a "garden shed on wheels" [SUV], space to do stuff and do it without unsettling either myself or the car/bike.

I have a wee personal theory about tailgaters and it has nothing to do with sex. It's to do with advertising and lack of science understanding. The drivers have been told their car has all these fantastic electronic control systems that can do all these marvellous things to keep their car on the road going in the direction they want and at the speed they desire. And it will also stop their car in spectacular fashion when they need to do so. And the drivers believe all of this and so drive faster than perhaps they should, much closer to the vehicle in front than is prudent and with less attention to what they are doing than is wise. And they do this because they didn't listen very carefully that day in general science when the teacher explained friction and adhesion and grip and how there's a relationship between those and the tyre on their car and the road surface and what can cause the tyre to not grip quite as well as it should due to the road surface being wet.

Or, I could suggest that those drivers are just shit drivers...

Somewhere on his channel, John Cadogan discusses braking and tyres and grip - https://www.youtube.com/user/AutoExpertTV/videos

[Akzle]

Or, I could suggest that those drivers are just shit drivers...

[/url]

in my observation of townies, they tailgate so "no-one gets ahead of them and slows them down" the same reason they need traffic lights to tell them how to merge :laugh: fuckwits. (nT realising their shit attitude actually slows all traffic down, including them)

i always laugh when driving past nose to tails. (also nothing to do with sex) sometimes even clap.

and the operators have the nerve to look at me liek there's something wrong with ME? liek, hulloo, i'm not the dopey whore driving into shit.

as for those doing it on the open road? eep. they've obvs never tried, and seen how long it takes them to stop, gadgets or no.

ban fuckwits. vote akzle.

[nerrrd]

Yeah I think the tailgating in Auckland is more down to not letting anyone queue jump and impatience than belief in the gizmos built into the car (although it may have subconsciously registered when they bought it I guess). In the rain it’s really scary how little most car drivers adjust their driving to suit, it is for me on the bike anyway.

And another thing a lot of bikers don’t seem to get that’s bad about tailgating is visibility – like when you’re waiting to turn right, the oncoming car is turning left, you start to turn and then out from behind the car pops a bike going straight through, no time to react, biker leans on horn thinking ‘f*ckn’ cager’ as you keep turning in front as you’re committed by now.

ie Plenty of space in front makes you more visible to others.

[george formby]

I concede that habitual tailgating in cities is a turf war, like defending your place in the queue when the Boxing Day sales are on.

Tailgating on the open road implies to me that the rider / driver's following distance is how far they are actually looking ahead. I guarantee that these tailgaters will also consistently brake in the middle of a corner because they are not looking far enough ahead to read the road and will speed up on overtaking lanes as their view increases. All done obliviously.

It's a bit of a game for me. If I'm following traffic that is doing the concertina disco with their brake lights I measure my following distance by not having to brake at all, just lift off the gas. I do have to consider the vehicle sitting a few feet off my arse, though, and give them a couple of brake light flashes when I shut the throttle. Just in case..

[Moi]

I can't remember whether I either read it or heard it, as on a video, as to why people tailgate: it's because so far the technology has saved their bacon. The day it doesn't is the day they begin to think about following distances.

Actually, it might have been Russ of Roadcraft Nottingham in one of his videos about braking...

When the tailgating is done by someone attempting to force the vehicle in front to go faster or to prevent someone from merging safely, then it's a form of intimidation, a form of bullying...

[george formby]

I can't remember whether I either read it or heard it, as on a video, as to why people tailgate: it's because so far the technology has saved their bacon. The day it doesn't is the day they begin to think about following distances.

Actually, it might have been Russ of Roadcraft Nottingham in one of his videos about braking...

When the tailgating is done by someone attempting to force the vehicle in front to go faster or to prevent someone from merging safely, then it's a form of intimidation, a form of bullying...

Yup, I see that quite often. Usually someone in a Ford Ranger, Audi Panzerwagen or something of that ilk up someones grandma's chuff. People get emotional behind the wheel.
Mind you, here in Un Zud we all have the God given right to use the road exactly as we please coz we paid for it. When I see a lilac Honda Jazz holding up double trailer logging trucks I do wonder about the drivers level of awareness.

[granstar]

I can't remember whether I either read it or heard it, as on a video, as to why people tailgate: it's because so far the technology has saved their bacon. The day it doesn't is the day they begin to think about following distances.


When the tailgating is done by someone attempting to force the vehicle in front to go faster or to prevent someone from merging safely, then it's a form of intimidation, a form of bullying...

When I passenger with the wife, I'm under the dash as she is bad at following a bit too close to stop in an emergency. Her modern white Hiundy (see it-avoid it) seems to have given her too much confidence, it was better when we owned a poor wee mini and you had to deliberately keep a lot of distance in order to stop due to shit brakes, my old Triumph mc being similar with state of art quality English made Lockheed brakes, shjeezsh! how do airplanes stop in the wet?

So reminder hints to maintain an open road stopping distance relative to speed to SWCBT as being a very risky business as one may die in that process,:facepalm: but then the way she drives we are all going to die, I take the best solution, and that is ride the bike instead. Often maintain a safe following speed there a minority that take that gap as an excuse to dangerously pass and cut you off (often no indication) :shit:.

To add to the tailgate brigade, there is an element out there that are either blind and simply cannot judge distance, or perhaps think that their modern choice of transit has enough power and at Give Ways pull out in front of your approaching motorcycle. Happens so often it gets predictable and always watch for this ready to reduce speed to allow them to potter on ahead as traffic behind builds up. Driver impatience for the sake of a few moments wait for a gap to safely pull out.

[Viking01]

I can't remember whether I either read it or heard it, as on a video, as to why people tailgate: it's because so far the technology has saved their bacon. The day it doesn't is the day they begin to think about following distances.
......
When the tailgating is done by someone attempting to force the vehicle in front to go faster or to prevent someone from merging safely, then it's a form of intimidation, a form of bullying...


Well, the last few posts have been a little bit of a revelation.
Goes to show that you're never too old to learn.

Here was I thinking that they were simply trying to slipstream
and to improve their fuel economy ..... 8-)

And obviously the closer, the better. Think of all the fuel that
could be saved.

I have to admit that I was starting to feel a little selfish (?),
maintaining my usual much larger following distance and not
doing my bit for fuel economy.

But now that I know otherwise, I feel much better. And safer.


And it has helped explain the occasional headlight-flash behind.

Here was I thinking they were simply telling me "that I could close
up even more and improve my fuel economy further", when in fact
they were just telling me to "stop driving defensively and just get
the f#$% out of the way" ...... 8-(

Well, that was a disappointment. Guess you can't please everyone.

But in hindsight, it's probably just as well that when I waved my
thanks to them, it was with a full complement of fingers.

Cheers,
Viking

[george formby]

That may be the "paranoid flash". If they are gesticulating at the same time it means one of your wheels has fallen off and you need to pull over immediately so they can get past. Deceitful but effective.

Caveat- only effective on slow drivers who have their mirror pointing the right way.

[russd7]

explain that in our terms as i heard you were from gore and only had three fingers.

fark, that was a seriously low blow, we don't need that sort down here in sunny southland

[russd7]

Well, the last few posts have been a little bit of a revelation.
Goes to show that you're never too old to learn.

Here was I thinking that they were simply trying to slipstream
and to improve their fuel economy ..... 8-)

And obviously the closer, the better. Think of all the fuel that
could be saved.

Cheers,
Viking
i remember as a young fella back in te early eighties and i was riding along on my XR 2 fiddy riding the slipstream of a truck, was sitting on 80km (speed limit back then) on about 1/4 throttle and i decided to pass said truck, why wouldn't i, the bike was only on 1/4 throttle, heaps to spare, so the road was clear and i pulled out in to a head wind and damned near got blown back wards, of course being pig headed i was going to pass that truck and i did but by hell it took a lot of road to do so. have never forgotten that

[BMWST?]

I think that a very large portion of commuters are not actually DRIVING at all.They have no interest in the art of driving.It is merely something that is required to get oneself hither and yon.Modern cars make this even worse as there are gizmos and whistles that promote entertainment ,let alone smartphones etc.But the real problem is a large contingent do not drive...they are passengers.They see no further in fron than the car in front.They have no anticipation or forsight.They dont look.I saw a double nose to tail the other day.I was in outside lane these two cars were in lanes 1 and 2.Lane 1 had road works so lane 1 had to merge with lane 2.i saw brakelights so i throttled off,these two kept going the same speed.I braked to let lane 2 in front of me but it was too late she piled into the back of her lane 2 at the same time lane 1 piled into the car in front.I stopped because my lane was now blocked,and someone piled into the back of me(i was in the car) The whole thing was unfolding for seconds before i slowed but these two seemed to completely unaware that cars were braking ahead of them (brakelight city)

[rastuscat]

Popped through to Akaroa through the week. A friend was going for a ride, so I went too. I don't normally go there, it's all a bit passe.

The reflection I have from the ride, and the other riders we encountered, is that we are lucky not to be killing more people. I know each death is a tragedy, but some of the riding that goes on day after day is simply suicidal.

Maybe we should celebrate the numbers, instead of bemoaning them.

[AllanB]

Popped through to Akaroa through the week. A friend was going for a ride, so I went too. I don't normally go there, it's all a bit passe.

The reflection I have from the ride, and the other riders we encountered, is that we are lucky not to be killing more people. I know each death is a tragedy, but some of the riding that goes on day after day is simply suicidal.

Maybe we should celebrate the numbers, instead of bemoaning them.

Ironically as the years pass and my motorcycles improved I've found the road surface on that hill has degraded.... not surprising with the volume of traffic it gets now. Plus my self preservation must have altered as there are patches I'd have passed a car 20-30 years back on a obviously less competent bike that I wouldn't consider pulling out now.

Side note - statistically NZ kills more people swimming in rivers and the ocean every year than on motorcycles .....:facepalm:

[Daffyd]

[QUOTE=release_the_bees;1131083614]

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.
[QUOTE]

Doesn't work here... a four to six second gap will be filled with impatient drivers/riders before you can say, "1, 2, 3, Cock Robinson!"

[ellipsis]

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.


...+2...there are other almost, national traits, but 'safe following distance' seems to be one that they don't seem to have put much thought into...possibly the first to report a bunch of 'crazy' motorcyclists to ..whoever...it's why I stay at home more these days, grey and colder days are not too far off in the future, thank fuck...

[rastuscat]

[QUOTE=release_the_bees;1131083614]

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.
[QUOTE]

Doesn't work here... a four to six second gap will be filled with impatient drivers/riders before you can say, "1, 2, 3, Cock Robinson!"

That's the justification for following too close that everyone uses.

"If I leave a gap someone will fill it"

So what? Someone you don't know, driving a car you'll never see again, takes the space ahead of you.

Here's a novel idea. Let the knob have that space, and take your safety back by giving the knob 2 seconds gap behind him.

I challenge everyone who attends my courses to leave a 2 second gap all day and count the number of cars that steal your gap. It's never as bad as you'd think.

And the benefit of following too close (
Protecting your space) doesn't justify sacrificing the benefits of leaving a 2 second gap.

[Daffyd]

Of course I agree... I was just stating what happens here.

[caspernz]

[QUOTE=Daffyd;1131084822][QUOTE=release_the_bees;1131083614]

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.


That's the justification for following too close that everyone uses.

"If I leave a gap someone will fill it"

So what? Someone you don't know, driving a car you'll never see again, takes the space ahead of you.

Here's a novel idea. Let the knob have that space, and take your safety back by giving the knob 2 seconds gap behind him.

I challenge everyone who attends my courses to leave a 2 second gap all day and count the number of cars that steal your gap. It's never as bad as you'd think.

And the benefit of following too close (
Protecting your space) doesn't justify sacrificing the benefits of leaving a 2 second gap.

No argument from me RC, a safe following distance is the best form of insurance a motorist can give themselves. It's really just an attitude :clap:

A motivational speaker called Dennis Waitley called the road rage/tailgate phenomenon "surrendering your life to stranger" and he wasn't far wrong me thinks.

Plenty of wannabe truckers have the "I can never leave a decent gap in front of me or some tosser will drive into it" speech down pat. When you actually make a habit of leaving 4 to 6 seconds in front of the rig, it turns out that yeah on occasion some Richard Cranium will dive into it, yet for the most part the drive just becomes a lot more chilled out. But hey, what would I know? Still learning...:cool:

[Daffyd]

One of the worst problems here is a stupid law that states the most vulnerable road user is the most protected, ie a motorcyclist hits a pedestrian, he's at fault, regardless of the fact that said pedestrian may have just stepped out in front of him, leaving him no room to stop. Same applies with car/motorcycle, truck, bus/car and so on. It tend to make pedestrians think they are invincible!

I had an experience where a grandmother was walking her 3y/o grandson across a busy road and she was teaching him to put his hand up for me to stop. Luckily I was riding; imagine if it was an 18 wheeler. Can a three y/o judge the stopping distance required by an 18 wheeler?

BTW, I had a 6 second gap in front of me.

[Akzle]

One of the worst problems here is a stupid law that states the most vulnerable road user is the most protected, ie a motorcyclist hits a pedestrian, he's at fault, regardless of the fact that said pedestrian may have just stepped out in front of him, leaving him no room to stop. Same applies with car/motorcycle, truck, bus/car and so on. It tend to make pedestrians think they are invincible!

I had an experience where a grandmother was walking her 3y/o grandson across a busy road and she was teaching him to put his hand up for me to stop. Luckily I was riding; imagine if it was an 18 wheeler. Can a three y/o judge the stopping distance required by an 18 wheeler?

BTW, I had a 6 second gap in front of me.

there are places in [insert philanthropic forward thinking european nation like sweden] where they've removed all signs, lights, road markings etc.

and there's india.

so, like. fucken deal with it. or stop driving/riding.

[Daffyd]

there are places in [insert philanthropic forward thinking european nation like sweden] where they've removed all signs, lights, road markings etc.

and there's india.

so, like. fucken deal with it. or stop driving/riding.

I'm not complaining, I am dealing/have dealt with it, CUNT! I was merely pointing out what happens in other parts of the world!

[Akzle]

well. that escalated quickly.


I'm not complaining,


One of the worst problems here is a stupid law...

whatevz nigga.