So you don't like cops

[Jackrat]

Well this ain't NZ but it's still kind'a interesting anyway.
http://fredoneverything.net/PoliceMenu.html

[What?]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, food for thought, Jack.
The old "two sides to every story" story.

[Lou Girardin]

I've seen similar over the years, usually US sourced. Remember they chose the job, some for very suspect reasons. I don't think they should have carte blanche to persecute the public simply because of that. Paramedics and firefighters have even tougher jobs.
One factor that changed my attitude to the Police was a case where they let a woman bleed to death while they cordoned off a house. They wouldn't enter because they thought the offender was present and armed (he wasn't). Do firefighters refuse to enter buildings because they may get hurt? The situation is like the services, you may collect your pay for years in perfect safety. But when combat happens you don't get to choose whether you go or not.
Lou

[Hitcher]

Went for a fang up the coast today with Mrs H for a bite of lunch and to polish up a dented mojo. Highway 1 north was crawling with ossifers of the law. Discovered a new sneaky spot... tucked in behind the end of the armco at the end of the Porirua onramp merge lane, complete with laser gun. I wish I'd had one later in the morning -- we were coming down from the top of the Paekak hill (the road to Pauatahanui) taking in the sights and sounds and along comes Joe Law honking the other way in his HP Special pretending he's Craig Lowndes. No lights on or siren, obviously just seeing what it would do on the twisties! Personalised plate too -- SLOWDN Amazing what taxpayers' money can buy...

[Jackrat]

Hmmmmm,yep well I did post this because I think it is an interesting read.
Like you point out Lou, I have noticed our own finest tend to come across as
having a bit of a gang mentality at times,IE Gutless.
But then I also know a few cops and I wouldn't discribe them this way.
Obviously we have problems with certain standards in NZ.
Probably standards in command I think.

[mangell6]

Obviously we have problems with certain standards in NZ.
Probably standards in command I think.

As the recent media circus has shown. I know a number of police men who have left due to the way the force has headed. A seemingly large number of the new police officers wouldn't know judgement if one was handed to them or is it the ones that I associated with. :)

Tis a pity there was a time that you respected Police, now though I only respect the ones that respect me first.

[mangell6]

I was once told that there were only seven 'negative' people in the world and that they get around a lot.

I have tended to apply this to 'groups' that I deal with. For example there are only seven 'ignorant' police officers, I just wish they had desk jobs. :lol:

[Motu]

Back in the days when we had a Police force and seperate traffic cops - the Police were always respected,the Traffic cops were mean and nasty,wannabe policemen who were on a power trip,they enjoyed that fact people hated them.Now the police have traffic duty,poor bastards,now they take all that flack too now.

Our local Traffic cop became a Policeman in the change over - but he didn't become a Policeman .....some nasty things were found out about him and he dissapeared from the face of the earth,what a scumbag he was,tainting the Police force with his depravity.

[merv]

I wish I'd had one later in the morning -- we were coming down from the top of the Paekak hill (the road to Pauatahanui) taking in the sights and sounds and along comes Joe Law honking the other way in his HP Special pretending he's Craig Lowndes. No lights on or siren, obviously just seeing what it would do on the twisties! Personalised plate too -- SLOWDN Amazing what taxpayers' money can buy...

Yep remember a few weeks ago I said how can these hypocrites sleep at night when they ping us for doing 111km/hr but at heart many of them have the same boy racer instincts as any other young guy - and a few I know own bikes that they don't ride slowly.

[Hitcher]

I was once told that there were only seven 'negative' people in the world and that they get around a lot.

I have tended to apply this to 'groups' that I deal with. For example there are only seven 'ignorant' police officers, I just wish they had desk jobs. :lol:

Tee hee! We wish...

[What?]

Back in the days when we had a Police force and seperate traffic cops - the Police were always respected,the Traffic cops were mean and nasty,wannabe policemen who were on a power trip,they enjoyed that fact people hated them.Now the police have traffic duty,poor bastards,now they take all that flack too now.
There were doubtless cases of that, Motu, but I believe that to be unfair as a generalisation. Agree, Lou?
Back in the days of MoT cops, I got more warnings than I ever got tickets. Some of those warnings were for things that would cost me my license these days.
My old man was an MoT cop. Thus I know and knew many others. Not one of them ever wanted to be a policeman. When being a policeman was thrust upon them, quite a few left the job.

[James Deuce]

All the MOT guys I ever bumped into were fair minded and reasonable.
NONE of the HP guys I have bumped into have been respectful in the way those guys were. You could get told off by an MOT guy and it stuck. If an HP guy tells me off I do it again (twice).

When I went for my car license I was nervous as hell. My driving instructor and the MOT cop were mates and they laid out a bastard of a course between them - because my old man was a loose unit behind the wheel and they both wanted to check that I wasn't mental as well.

My point is they seemed to give a damn. Every time I see an HP car the Police badge gets replaced by an IRD logo in my head. :crazy:

[Lou Girardin]

You're dead right,What. The first day I started in the MOT, I got a lift into Auckland with a BIG Maori cop (forgot his name). He stopped a young guy for speeding on the motorway. He ripped this guy to shreds for 5 minutes, told him to stay where he was for 1/2 an hour and think about what he'd done. NO ticket though.
!/2 an hour later the young guy was still there.
That's something you'd remember, not a ticket 3 weeks later from a goddamn camera!
Lou

[SPman]

There was a time that you respected Police, now though I only respect the ones that respect me first.
Ain't that the truth! :(

[k14]

Tis a pity there was a time that you respected Police, now though I only respect the ones that respect me first.

Yip, gotta agree with you there aswell mangell.

I just finished reading a book about this FBI agent in the US. He said that the most valuable thing he ever learnt is to treat everyone with the same respect. Doenst matter if the person is a serial murderer, rapist or a 80 year old lady. He said it has saved his life on 3-4 occasions cause he didnt talk down to the crims he was trying to catch.

If only the NZ pigs would listen to this aswell. On my two occasions of being greeted with the cops, they both were polite to me, 1 time when i didnt deserve it. So i was polite to them, but it didnt get me any lienence, so go figure.

That was my 2c anyway.

[wkid_one]

In the two times I have been pulled over - I had contrasting experiences. The second cop came straight out of the car and said 'Thanks for stopping, otherwise I never would have caught yah' - and then laughed. He was gr8, told me that 129kph was too fast and if I had been doing say 120 he woulda let it slide given conditions, but at 129 he needed to ticket me.

The first cop however was arrogant - so I threw it back. He waited in his car for 5 mins before strutting over....proceeded with no pleasantries and just goes 'You know why I am pulling you over'......'At that speed, if you crash, I have to clean you up' - I was doing 116kph down Himitangi - prick

[Slim]

I have met only one cop with an attitude, and protested so much & so genuinely that he didn't write me out a ticket (although I'm sure he would have if I hadn't been so damned shocked!)

When we were coming back into Hamilton on our test ride on Saturday morning, we were getting into a new built up area & I was just trying to puzzle out where the 70kph sign had disappeared to because I'd obviously missed it, when I finally spotted an HP car coming towards me. :doh: He had his hand draped over the steering wheel & was vigourously pointing downwards with his index finger, so I nodded at him as I lowered my speed all the way to 70 and we both tootled off on our way.

No lights, no sirens, no U-turn. :niceone:

[Jackrat]

Wkid your post reminded me of when I had my big off.
The cops did nothing,just stood about asking dumb questions.
The guys That were bloody good were the ambo's.
But anyway as to the cops the only thing they did do was to ask me how fast I was going,Here I am lying in a BIG pool of my own blood Damn sure I was about to die an all these pricks could was try to set me up for possible
Prosecution.Well ya' can say anything ya' like when ya' have a head injury so I told them I was doing 300km.I was visted later in hospital by one of these guys.When he started up I just asked him what he thought his chances were in pushing a case based on an impossible speed.I would like to find the same guy bleeding in a ditch one day,I would ask him if he remembered me,and then make like I was going to leave just to see the look on his face.
Like you say,,,Prick!!

[spudchucka]

I've seen similar over the years, usually US sourced. Remember they chose the job, some for very suspect reasons. I don't think they should have carte blanche to persecute the public simply because of that. Paramedics and firefighters have even tougher jobs.
One factor that changed my attitude to the Police was a case where they let a woman bleed to death while they cordoned off a house. They wouldn't enter because they thought the offender was present and armed (he wasn't). Do firefighters refuse to enter buildings because they may get hurt? The situation is like the services, you may collect your pay for years in perfect safety. But when combat happens you don't get to choose whether you go or not.
Lou

Your'e entitled to your opinion but unless you have some operational police experience then don't criticise what you don't understand.

[k14]

Your'e entitled to your opinion but unless you have some operational police experience then don't criticise what you don't understand.

Just quietly, i think he does :whistle: .

[wkid_one]

Wkid your post reminded me of when I had my big off.
The cops did nothing,just stood about asking dumb questions.
The guys That were bloody good were the ambo's.
But anyway as to the cops the only thing they did do was to ask me how fast I was going,Here I am lying in a BIG pool of my own blood Damn sure I was about to die an all these pricks could was try to set me up for possible
Prosecution.Well ya' can say anything ya' like when ya' have a head injury so I told them I was doing 300km.I was visted later in hospital by one of these guys.When he started up I just asked him what he thought his chances were in pushing a case based on an impossible speed.I would like to find the same guy bleeding in a ditch one day,I would ask him if he remembered me,and then make like I was going to leave just to see the look on his face.
Like you say,,,Prick!!
Yeah - when I had my accident where I dislocated my shoulder....I am sitting with my shoulder 6inches out of joint - has been like that for 4 hours while I was waiting for some stupid doctor to check on me....I am sitting on the X Ray table with the nurse asking me to contort my F*(&EN sore shoulder in to physically impossible positions And the PoliceMan comes in and starts asking me 101 questions. I told him to leave - politely of course.....and come back later....couldn't remember if I used 3 swear words or 4.

He came back 4 hours later.......

[Lou Girardin]

Just quietly, i think he does :whistle: .

Thanks, but I don't have that kind of experience.
My point is that if you take the job, you must expect to put yourself at serious risk to protect the innocent. If you don't want to, get out.
Lou

[spudchucka]

Thanks, but I don't have that kind of experience.
My point is that if you take the job, you must expect to put yourself at serious risk to protect the innocent. If you don't want to, get out.
Lou

And where exactly does it say a cop must do that, in the police oath - no, in the job description - no. Ask Duncan Taylors wife what she thinks about cops stepping into harms way.

While you accept that you will be assaulted, spat at, abused and generally be the butt of all sorts of bad attitudes, why the hell should anyone expect a cop to walk into an armed incident like that. And don't give me that crap about it's what you are paid to do - bollocks!!!

It's all too easy to form an opinion on such matters from within the pages of the newspaper or watching the 6 o'clock news. But unless you were there or you are in possession of the FULL facts, not just what the media reports, then opinions aint worth shite.

[SPman]

:angry2:
Your'e entitled to your opinion but unless you have some operational police experience then don't criticise what you don't understand.
What a load of shite!

"Don't criticise what you dont understand!!!"

So, you can only "understand" something, if you've had direct experience of it? - what a load of generalising garbage!
So, perhaps no one should have criticised William Calley in the My Lai massacre, because they didnt have direct experience of the fear of frontline troops, or criticised Keith Abbott, because they didnt know what it was like to be confronted by an out of control youth with a baseball bat, when youve been to a mates wedding, had some beers, an hours sleep and called out to a disturbance, armed with a pistol!


We wouldnt understand!
Sometimes, I feel we understand all too well!

The public face of the police is what matters to most of the public of this country. Many of us have severe stresses in our work/lives that can affect the way we present ourselves to the world at large. The police have their own set of stresses. Most reasonable people (generalising - uh oh!) know that the police deal with varying degrees of stress during their working day,and can allow for it. However, in any service dealing with the public, the need to be initially, polite and respectful to those you are dealing with is important for the smooth operation of your job. And if you cant do that, you shouldnt be in the job. If you act like an overbearing officious arsehole, who thinks they can tell you to jump through hoops to their satisfaction,often, for no apparent reason, in most jobs - you get sacked, regardless of "extenuating circumstances".
Taking away individual police discretion and making every copper toe the political line has had a disasterous effect on both police morale and public perceptions of the police. Sticking to strict operational procedure, doing away with "common sense" ( I was told by a senior sergant once that it didnt pay!)- fucking stupid - Steven Wallace lying on the footpath bleeding for 20 minutes with no one allowed near him to help - he probably would have died anyway - but thats not the point!

The Police were originally meant to serve and assist the public - not control them, bully them, intimidate them, - serve and assist them! More and more, that seems to be going by the way, as they entrench their macho fortress mentality..... us and them and we have "the law" on our side.....:( :( :(

[spudchucka]

:angry2:

or criticised Keith Abbott, because they didnt know what it was like to be confronted by an out of control youth with a baseball bat, when youve been to a mates wedding, had some beers, an hours sleep and called out to a disturbance, armed with a pistol!:(

As stated above, unless you have the FULL facts, your opinion is worthless. Download and read the report then form your opinion.



:However, in any service dealing with the public, the need to be initially, polite and respectful to those you are dealing with is important for the smooth operation of your job. And if you cant do that, you shouldnt be in the job.:(


True, but what has that got to do with the resolution of an armed incident. Relate this back to the post by Lou that originally drew out my comments.



:Taking away individual police discretion and making every copper toe the political line has had a disasterous effect on both police morale and public perceptions of the police. Sticking to strict operational procedure, doing away with "common sense" ( I was told by a senior sergant once that it didnt pay!)- fucking stupid:(


No body has "taken" away officer discretion, sure the organisation lays down it's "policy", (I'm assumming you are referring to everybodys favourite topic - SPEEDING) but the choice of whether to issue a ticket or arrest a person lies entirely with the attending officer. Head office policy obviously influences officer behaviour and I agree that strict traffic enforcement has a negative effect on the public opinion of police but again relate this to the original comments made by Lou.



:- Steven Wallace lying on the footpath bleeding for 20 minutes with no one allowed near him to help - he probably would have died anyway - but thats not the point! :(


The horses mouth would say otherwise but no body wants to report that do they.



:The Police were originally meant to serve and assist the public - not control them, bully them, intimidate them, - serve and assist them! More and more, that seems to be going by the way, as they entrench their macho fortress mentality..... us and them and we have "the law" on our side.....:( :( :(


Justify this with something other than the usual rant about traffic tickets, everybody hates them but they are a fact of life. If you have experiences that are responsible for your feelings then lets hear about them. Don't qoute what you read in the media or what your mate or anybody else said happened. Why are YOU so sour.

[Lou Girardin]

And where exactly does it say a cop must do that, in the police oath - no, in the job description - no. Ask Duncan Taylors wife what she thinks about cops stepping into harms way.
It's all too easy to form an opinion on such matters from within the pages of the newspaper or watching the 6 o'clock news. But unless you were there or you are in possession of the FULL facts, not just what the media reports, then opinions aint worth shite.

It's called courage and a sense of duty. Which doesn't include listening on a phone while a woman slowly bleeds to death. (According to the PCA report.)
I don't consider myself brave, but I've taken a big risk to save a jumper on the Union St bridge. Why don't they?

Lou

[Lou Girardin]

[QUOTE=spudchucka]As stated above, unless you have the FULL facts, your opinion is worthless. Download and read the report then form your opinion.

I've read the full report and various rebuttals of what really was a whitewash.
The bottom line was that, THREE experienced cops couldn't or wouldn't take down a man armed with a bat. So 2 watched while the third shot him 4 or 5 times, one of those in the back. It was a disgrace. When did vandalism become a capital offence?
Lou

[marty]

If only the NZ pigs would listen to this aswell. On my two occasions of being greeted with the cops, they both were polite to me, 1 time when i didnt deserve it. So i was polite to them, but it didnt get me any lienence, so go figure.

That was my 2c anyway.

so even though they were polite to you, but ticketed you anyway, you still show them zero respect? on your own admission you say you didn't deserve to have been treated politely. on what grounds do you think that you should have been shown leniancy?

[marty]

Just quietly, i think he does :whistle: .

actually, i don't consider being in the MOT prior to the merger as having policing experience. this is not a reflection on Lou's obvious ability to negotiate and argue, but simply a reality that the Police and the MOT were (and still are really) a million miles away from each other in their culture, and the way that they were operated, developed, and structured.

[k14]

so even though they were polite to you, but ticketed you anyway, you still show them zero respect? on your own admission you say you didn't deserve to have been treated politely. on what grounds do you think that you should have been shown leniancy?

No, i dont think i should have been shown leniancy. I was just commenting about my experiences with cops. They treated me with respect and i returned the favor.

I think that we only dislike the cops when they talk down to us and think they are superior to us cause they have the "power".

[spudchucka]

[QUOTE=spudchucka]As stated above, unless you have the FULL facts, your opinion is worthless. Download and read the report then form your opinion.

I've read the full report and various rebuttals of what really was a whitewash.
The bottom line was that, THREE experienced cops couldn't or wouldn't take down a man armed with a bat. So 2 watched while the third shot him 4 or 5 times, one of those in the back. It was a disgrace. When did vandalism become a capital offence?
Lou

Good on ya for reading the report, if that's your interpretation of it, fair enough. However if you still believe it was just vandalism then you must have skipped over the bit about him trying to run over cyclists and ram taxis.

As for taking down a man armed with a bat - if you have ever had to deal with an enraged person full of muderous intent - you would know how dangerous they can be, with or without a weapon.

What do you consider to be an exceptable loss in order to apprehend an offender of that type? One cops teeth knocked out? One cop bashed in the head and off work for months? A cop with brain damage and in a wheel chair for the rest of his / her life? A dead cop? But hey we apprehended the offender unharmed, thats sure to help the greiving family of a dead cop feel much better.

Despite what your expectations may be, cops aint super heroes, theyr'e not bullet proof and they break just as easily as anyone that doesn't wear a blue shirt.

Resolving incidents requires on the spot assessment, decision making and minimising the risks. I'm sure that no cop would hesitate to put themselves at risk to help another person, the fact is they do it evreyday. But why commit suicide just to be a heroe, thats the movies, not reality.

[marty]

i agree with spud. pity the stu guthries, murray stretches, duncan taylors of the world that decided not to take firearms to the job. i am sure if someone had some ideas how any of these men, plus many others, could have saved themselves without the use of deadly force, they would have bought it up by now.

[Jackrat]

I read this morning how a Police Dog handler was attacked and injured while responding to a call out.I have yet to phone my mate from out whitford who is a police dog handler to see if it was him,Seems the guy is still in hospital as he was stabed in the eye ,After being attacked from behind.
I just hope he is ok,And I hope even more that it was not the property of one of you cunts that he was trying to protect.

[Lou Girardin]

We'll have to agree to disagree, spudchucker.
Lou

[mangell6]

Well said Jackrat!

[spudchucka]

We'll have to agree to disagree, spudchucker.
Lou

Fair enough.

[spudchucka]

I read this morning how a Police Dog handler was attacked and injured while responding to a call out.I have yet to phone my mate from out whitford who is a police dog handler to see if it was him,Seems the guy is still in hospital as he was stabed in the eye ,After being attacked from behind.
I just hope he is ok,And I hope even more that it was not the property of one of you cunts that he was trying to protect.

There's nothing finer than when the land shark gets to chew on the bad guys. Its a great tough guy leveler.