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MadDuck
24th February 2018, 20:02
So I have not ridden my motobike for a wee while. I understand the fuel goes stale and I was told to put these clip things on but I think I may have been being tricked. Does it really go stale?

2fst4u
24th February 2018, 20:03
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

Laava
24th February 2018, 20:32
How long is a wee while Ducky? Should be absolutely fine up to 6 months I would have thought if not more?

caseye
24th February 2018, 20:46
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeey MD. Noice bike mate.
if it's not been too long she'll start.
Ya wanna a semi bike nut to come get you out an about tomorrow then.

MSTRS
24th February 2018, 21:08
I shall be watching developments and advice with much interest. I too, am not convinced the clips will do the job.

Coldrider
24th February 2018, 21:22
Wrong clips, clothes pegs work for me.

YellowDog
24th February 2018, 22:03
So you're putting an electrical current through the fuel tank and NOT expecting an explosion ? :weird:

MarkH
25th February 2018, 03:47
Fuel going stale is real, it happens. I have had this happen to me.
WTF are those clips, they look like some kind of BS, I doubt they will do anything to stop fuel going stale.

When I was living in Auckland, I decided to get a motorcycle for getting about in nice weather. When the weather turned wet, I realised that it would be a pain driving in the worse than normal traffic, so I put on wet weather gear and rode the bike. After more than 6 months of choosing not to use the car, I had not bought petrol and what was in the tank was going stale. The car started running like a sack of shit. The solution wasn't any kind of clips attached anywhere, it was to drive the car and burn up that shitty fuel, after buying a tank of fresh fuel it was running OK again. I then sold that car and it wasn't until a few years after leaving Auckland that I got over the trauma of driving a car in Auckland and was able to own a car again.

To solve your problem: put on motorcycle gear, get on bike and go for a ride. As soon as you can, add some fresh petrol to help it run better. Keep riding and burn up that petrol. Get the tank near empty and then add a whole heap of nice fresh petrol.

In future: If the answer isn't "go for a ride on a motorcycle" then you are probably asking the wrong question.

caseye
25th February 2018, 07:21
So you're putting an electrical current through the fuel tank and NOT expecting an explosion ? :weird:

Nearly said somehting very similar, butt! I believe that these BMWubbleyous have a gas tank under the seat, so I deleted that particular comment.
Ducky dearest are you going out for s pootle today?

RDJ
25th February 2018, 10:54
Fuel going stale is real, it happens. If the answer isn't "go for a ride on a motorcycle" then you are probably asking the wrong question.

Yeah, this!

RDJ
25th February 2018, 10:56
I travel lot for work and have bikes stored overseas. My NZ bikes get stabilizer but not the US / Oz bikes. Because, laziness. And yet, they crank up OK every 6-8 months. As long as the damn' batteries are healthy. I do run them dry though before storage. i.e. shutting off the fuel tap and letting the engine run out of fuel at idle. Maybe a myth but was taught that 46 years ago in carburettor daze :-

pritch
25th February 2018, 11:11
It seems there is a more serious stale fuel problem in countries that have poor quality fuel. Not sure of the current situation internationally but understand we should be OK. Like the others said, put fresh gas in and go for a ride. Unless it has been years in which case you have a big clean up job and magic clips won't help.

ellipsis
25th February 2018, 11:31
...I stored an AC50 at a mates house when I left NZ in 1980, he forgot that I had leaned it on a fence behind his shed, a weedy bush grew up, and around it over a three year period and it disappeared...I came home to visit family after three years away and needing transport went to see if the wee Suzuki was still there...after cutting back the bush and de-spidering it I ran it down his steep driveway to the waiting van I had borrowed to take it home...It was stuck in gear so I let the clutch out hoping this would free the clutch, on the way down the drive...It fired up, blew lots of smoke and I rode it the three or so miles home...that fuel would have been stale...I can only suggest that if the clips don't work, lean it against a bush and throw some spider shit in the tank...should work then...:rolleyes:

AllanB
25th February 2018, 13:03
Clips? What are these clips?

Looks like you have a battery tender hooked up to me, and given it's a BMW the battery could well be there.

Fuel. Yep, packs a sad after 8 or so months.

How long has it been sitting.

MadDuck
25th February 2018, 13:06
Nearly said somehting very similar, butt! I believe that these BMWubbleyous have a gas tank under the seat, so I deleted that particular comment.

This of course is correct. Mr BMW put the petrol under the seat. I am not totally stoopid when it comes to where to put the red and black thingies :shifty:

MadDuck
25th February 2018, 13:10
How long is a wee while Ducky? Should be absolutely fine up to 6 months I would have thought if not more?

Its been at least 6 months. I kind of got busy with another task. It fired up last night and I am about to head out for a sedate hoon!

caseye
25th February 2018, 15:47
This of course is correct. Mr BMW put the petrol under the seat. I am not totally stoopid when it comes to where to put the red and black thingies :shifty:

UH HUH@#$%!
Te he he, I knowed dat.
Well, the idea about the spider shit and cob webs might just do the trick I reckon, but otherwise a good dollop of Meths in the fuel will definitely make it start, might run like a hairy armpitted BMWubble, butt it'll go.

AllanB
25th February 2018, 16:06
Until the Ducati I have always popped a half cup of meths in the tank monthly to suck up any water in the system solely to avoid rust forming in the tank. Ducati has a plastic one.

I run injector cleaners through the cars every 6 months or less. Never put a injector cleaner in the bikes.

No idea if they actually do any difference as the connection between right foot and engine on the car is less than right hand/engine on the bike.

I did pour a bottle of carb/fuel system cleaner in the lads 1986 Laser - it clearly stirred up something as the slow speed jet in the carb became semi-blocked for about 40kms but thankfully corrected itself.

Or it was the suspect Mobil fuel I put in it. As a rule the fleet runs on Challenge purely as the closest three fuel stations are Challenge.

Laava
25th February 2018, 18:40
Its been at least 6 months. I kind of got busy with another task. It fired up last night and I am about to head out for a sedate hoon!

I like the cut of your gib young lady!

GazzaH
25th February 2018, 19:52
As to the clips, Red = Right nipple, bLack = Left.

tigertim20
26th February 2018, 09:51
So I have not ridden my motobike for a wee while. I understand the fuel goes stale and I was told to put these clip things on but I think I may have been being tricked. Does it really go stale?

Youre almost there, but the clips should be IN the fuel - something about ionizing the fuel so it remains stable and combustible long term.


Until the Ducati I have always popped a half cup of meths .

That sounds like a lot of meth, a gram usually does the trick for me.

On the bright side, summer is nearly over, and half a cup of meth means only four more sleeps till the start of next summer!

rambaldi
26th February 2018, 16:06
As to the clips, Red = Right nipple, bLack = Left.

Only if you are running a high voltage. For those wanting something lower and safer or just starting out I suggest testicles, they are closer together (usually) so don't need as much energy (i.e. a lower voltage rating).

GazzaH
26th February 2018, 18:42
Thanks for the advice, doc.

Enjoy your time at Guantanamo.

Daffyd
27th February 2018, 17:38
Speaking of Meths, My bike was running like shit if I missed riding for a day so I decided to try the Meths trick. Tried all over town and no-one had even heard of it. At about the last place in town a young shop assistant, who also hadn't heard of it, Googled it; lo and behold his search came up with, 'denatured alcohol'. They had dozens of bottles on the shelf! If only I'd asked for fuel for a spirit stove I'd have been home and hosed. Only thing is it's not coloured.

Did the trick on the bike, too.

pete376403
27th February 2018, 20:12
I always understood that meths in the fuel was to help deal with water (in the fuel) - the water droplets are too big to fit through the jets so blocked jets = baggy running motor. The meths emulsifies the water (makes the droplets smaller) which will pass through the jets. As far as 'stale" fuel goes, it would be stale as all the useful volatiles have evaporated and whats left is probably closer to kerosene. Once its got to that stage I cant see meths making any difference.

AllanB
27th February 2018, 21:38
I always understood that meths in the fuel was to help deal with water (in the fuel) - the water droplets are too big to fit through the jets so blocked jets = baggy running motor. The meths emulsifies the water (makes the droplets smaller) which will pass through the jets.

Yep that's what it's for. Get rid of the water.

MSTRS
1st March 2018, 19:46
Speaking of Meths, My bike was running like shit if I missed riding for a day so I decided to try the Meths trick. Tried all over town and no-one had even heard of it. At about the last place in town a young shop assistant, who also hadn't heard of it, Googled it; lo and behold his search came up with, 'denatured alcohol'. They had dozens of bottles on the shelf! If only I'd asked for fuel for a spirit stove I'd have been home and hosed. Only thing is it's not coloured.

Did the trick on the bike, too.

Meths and White Spirits are not the same thing...

MarkH
2nd March 2018, 01:18
Meths and White Spirits are not the same thing...

Very true, but I'm not sure of the relevance.
Daffyd is correct that denatured alcohol is what they call metholated spirits in some countries and that is what people use in spirit stoves. You definitely would not want to try burning white spirits in spirit stoves, regardless of the name sounding close.

A while back I followed internet instructions and made a spirit stove. The instructions mentioned burning denatured alcohol and I had trouble finding that product until I learnt that it was meths, suddenly I could buy the fuel damn near anywhere!

Daffyd
2nd March 2018, 12:54
Meths and White Spirits are not the same thing...

I must be missing something... Where did I mention White Spirits? As I recall, I said that here, Methylated spirits is known as denatured alcohol.

Daffyd
2nd March 2018, 13:07
Very true, but I'm not sure of the relevance.
Daffyd is correct that denatured alcohol is what they call metholated spirits in some countries and that is what people use in spirit stoves. You definitely would not want to try burning white spirits in spirit stoves, regardless of the name sounding close.

A while back I followed internet instructions and made a spirit stove. The instructions mentioned burning denatured alcohol and I had trouble finding that product until I learnt that it was meths, suddenly I could buy the fuel damn near anywhere!

When I was a kid my dad had a spirit stove which burned both Meths and White Spirits but it was different to your normal run-of -the-mill ones.
It had a fuel tank at the bottom with a tube coming out of the top for about 3" then a full loop and then back down to the tank, so you might say a loop and three quarters. The bottom of the loop had a small pin hole, (similar to a Primus). To light it you held a match in the loop where the heat somehow sucked the fumes up. Once it was hot the fumes lit and then it was self fuelling. Worked better than the current style.

Daffyd
2nd March 2018, 13:11
I always understood that meths in the fuel was to help deal with water (in the fuel) - the water droplets are too big to fit through the jets so blocked jets = baggy running motor. The meths emulsifies the water (makes the droplets smaller) which will pass through the jets. As far as 'stale" fuel goes, it would be stale as all the useful volatiles have evaporated and whats left is probably closer to kerosene. Once its got to that stage I cant see meths making any difference.

That is why I used it. When I bought the bike it had been standing for some time and I guessed that with the high humidity here there would be water in the fuel.

Old Steve
2nd March 2018, 13:29
Stale petrol is most often a case of volatility. Petrol has to evaporate to burn completely in the combustion chamber. Petrol has 3 general components, called 'light ends', "mid cut' and 'top ends', the light ends are around the butane, pentane range of hydrocarbons. Petrol's volatility is measured as its Reid Vapour Pressure and there are limits set in the Ministry of Energy fuel specifications. Of course this volatility varies by season (winter petrol has to have higher volatility) and region (southern South Island petrol has to have more volatility than northern North Island petrol)

When left in storage the light ends evaporate, leaving a mixture which is more middle cut/top ends. Stale fuel exhibits as starting problems and rough running problems.

What has been said about getting on your bike and riding it is exactly right. Use some of the fuel up and top it up with new fuel suitable for the season. Run the tank down and refill it.

Cosmik de Bris
5th March 2018, 08:23
Stale petrol is most often a case of volatility. Petrol has to evaporate to burn completely in the combustion chamber. Petrol has 3 general components, called 'light ends', "mid cut' and 'top ends', the light ends are around the butane, pentane range of hydrocarbons. Petrol's volatility is measured as its Reid Vapour Pressure and there are limits set in the Ministry of Energy fuel specifications. Of course this volatility varies by season (winter petrol has to have higher volatility) and region (southern South Island petrol has to have more volatility than northern North Island petrol)

When left in storage the light ends evaporate, leaving a mixture which is more middle cut/top ends. Stale fuel exhibits as starting problems and rough running problems.

What has been said about getting on your bike and riding it is exactly right. Use some of the fuel up and top it up with new fuel suitable for the season. Run the tank down and refill it.

You seem to know a lot about this Steve. Do they really blend winter petrol for different areas here in NZ?

Cheers

Old Steve
7th March 2018, 15:09
You seem to know a lot about this Steve. Do they really blend winter petrol for different areas here in NZ?


Yep, I was one of four Technical Managers from the Fuel Companies that put together the specifications for unleaded petrol for the Ministry of Energy back in the early 90s.

Have a look at "Engine Fuel Specifications Regulations 2011" (Google 'engine fuel specifications') or go to this website:

[url]www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2011/0352/latest/DLM4044783.html?search=ts_regulation_engine+fuel_r esel&p=1[url]

In that, you'll see the section on vapour pressure (volatility). Diesel fuel has a similar seasonal and regional variation on cloud point (the formation of free wax which will block fuel filters).


Vapour Pressure4 (DVPE) (kPa) Maxima: Auckland and Northland: 65 kPa summer, 80 kPa autumn and spring, 90 kPa winter; ASTM D5191
Rest of North Island: 70 kPa summer, 80 kPa autumn and spring, 90 kPa winter
South Island: 75 kPa summer, 85 kPa autumn and spring, 95 kPa winter
Minimum: 45 kPa all year


So you see that petrol volatility varies by season and region between summer, autumn and spring and winter, and through Auckland and Northland, Rest of North Island, and South Island.

Old Steve
7th March 2018, 15:59
And incidentally, petrol octane is determined by Research Octane number (RON) and Motor octane number (MON), the difference between the two numbers is called the petrol's 'sensitivity'. So 'regular' petrol is 91 RON/81 MON and 'premium' petrol is 95 RON/85 MON, both specs set a sensitivity of 10.

Marsden Point refinery is MON limited, it has trouble getting a petrol's MON up, so they have to give away RON. Sensitivity of premium 95 petrol from Marsden Point may be around 12 or even 13 instead of the sensitivity of 10 for regular 91. It may well come out of the refinery as 98 RON/85 MON.

Now, looking at the engine fuel specifications you'll see there is no spec at all or 98 RON petrol, this is just a marketing grade. I believe that the first 98 RON petrol marketed in NZ was just the wide sensitivity premium 95/85 spec petrol from Marsden Point which had a RON of 98 to get the MON up to 85.

If you want to have some fun with your local service station, fill the tank with 98 and then ask what the MON (Motor octane number) of the fuel is, is it 88 cos your engine needs 98 RON/88 MON petrol. If it's not 88 MON, can they drain the petrol out of the tank?

Incidentally, the USA uses an average octane, RON + MON/2. So while the manual of a Harley states "use 91 octane fuel" they mean use a fuel with an average RON + MON of 91, so in your Harley use premium 95 RON/ 85 MON petrol. By the way, that 98 RON/85 MON petrol has a US average octane of 91.5 so would be best for your Harley.