Counter-steering, an unhelpful term

[GrahamA]

By now almost everyone riding a bike must know about so called COUNTER-STEERING unless they're an absolute novice. Most others will also know how it works and why. A few might even know how it got the name. Many more, but not everyone, will know that we all do it all the time whether we realise it or not or our bikes wouldn't start to turn, even the ones which require you only to think, turn, to start the turn and it'll do it.

I prefer to call the phenomenon PUSH-STEERING, because it's what we really are doing. I want to turn to the left so I push forward on the left 'bar. For right it's the opposite. Even after riding for so long I still do it consciously whenever I want to initiate a rapid change of direction and just before coming to a complete stop so that the bike will cant slightly towards the foot I intend to put on the ground.

Give it a try. You might be surprised at how effective it is.

[2fst4u]

I found this to be a good demonstration of the phenomenon. There's plenty of videos out there about counter-steering but none show you the consequences of not understanding it.

TRIGGER WARNING - I'm serious, if seeing crashes sets off your anxiety then please don't watch. You have been warned. In saying that, I think the guy survives.

https://youtu.be/VVE79XT8-Mg

[AllanB]

Synthetic or mineral oil?

Road or race tyre pressures?

Accelerate or brake for that bus?

Vagina or Vage?

Counter or push/pull?


These ARE the dividing questions on a motorcycle forum.

[caspernz]

To train or not to train.

Big naturals or silicone enhanced.

Red Bull or V.

Fair enough for the OP to mention a basic skill, most should know of it by now, some of us even use the counter steering technique in our rider coaching :woohoo:

[GrahamA]

What I'm trying to get across is that the very term Counter-Steering can be confusing to some, and not only beginners, because it suggests doing the opposite from what is wanted - to steer in a chosen direction.

Calling it Push-Steering says something positive and is very easy to grasp. To go left, push the left 'bar forward in the direction you want to go.

The point I made about pushing a 'bar forward being effective even when at almost a stop may not be realised by many who do know about using it at higher speeds.

[GazzaH]

There's more to this issue than the term. The technique itself is counter-intuitive ... which means thinking consciously about what we're doing can be more of a hindrance than a help.

Brain biology is such that rational, conscious thought is a relatively slow process compared to instinctive/subconscious thought, and slower still compared to reflexes. In moments of life-or-death crisis, you don't want to be mentally ticking a checklist, reciting some trite acronym or risk-assessing your options.

Soooo (with respect) it's a technique better learnt by individuals through practice and experience, rather than teachers/trainers and classes ... but maybe there is a need to kick-start the learning process? Actually, I'm not even sure about that: has anyone been taught to countersteer a bicycle? It's the same principle. And yet, without it being pointed out, most of us manage to ride a bike, admittedly with the odd grazed knee.

[YellowDog]

I think the term 'Counter-Steering' is exactly what it is. You can call it push-steering, as your pet name for it, but it is still definitely 'Counter-Steering'.

BUT hold on........ Why not call it 'Pull-Steering' instead, as you pull the opposite bar to the way you want to turn?

Call it whatever you like, but it is still 'Counter-Steering' :yes:


Mobil One 15/50 Fully synthetic, thank you :eek5:

[caspernz]

What I'm trying to get across is that the very term Counter-Steering can be confusing to some, and not only beginners, because it suggests doing the opposite from what is wanted - to steer in a chosen direction.

Calling it Push-Steering says something positive and is very easy to grasp. To go left, push the left 'bar forward in the direction you want to go.

The point I made about pushing a 'bar forward being effective even when at almost a stop may not be realised by many who do know about using it at higher speeds.

Call it what you wish, the fact remains that the technique is referred to as counter steering in all teaching environments. And as another poster mentioned, it's best taught in a practical teaching environment.

Quibble about the term if you wish. I find it funny that there are words in the English lingo with silent letters, such as knife or knock. Won't be starting a post on KB about it though...

[eldog]

Is there a limit to how hard you can counter steer?

if so how can you tell.....

apparantly i don’t do enough of it.

[Laava]

Cassina/Axehole bait much?
You just know that these clowns will turn this thread to shit by the end of tomorrow...

[YellowDog]

Is there a limit to how hard you can counter steer?

if so how can you tell.....

apparantly i don’t do enough of it.

Your speed and the acuteness of the bend are the determining factors. If you fall off, you've over cooked it.

[BMWST?]

Is there a limit to how hard you can counter steer?

if so how can you tell.....

apparantly i don’t do enough of it.

i found that when you get quite physical with the counter steer and physically switching sides it tended to cause a little wheelie as the bike goes through the vertical.The harder you push the quicker the transistion.The motogpguys get blisters on their hands at the start of the season

[eldog]

Must try harder, comes to mind.
next ride then :sick:

[AllanB]

The motogpguys get blisters on their hands at the start of the season

So would I - have you seen the grid girls?

[caspernz]

Is there a limit to how hard you can counter steer?

if so how can you tell.....

apparantly i don’t do enough of it.

Get someone who knows their stuff to show you. Counter steering can be done with gusto but yeah if you get carried away with it, you'll be on your butt.

In a bend you can add some counter steering to tighten the path of the bike, so it helps to know how your bike responds to the push input on the inside bar.

[eldog]

Not too many grid girls on my rides these days.

Need to make it tighter cornering, when I need to.

[george formby]

Cassina/Axehole bait much?
You just know that these clowns will turn this thread to shit by the end of tomorrow...

Lets start now.:yes:

Do you counter steer a trials bike?

Which leads too...... Does counter steering still work at slow speeds?

And we come too.... Do moto gymkhana riders counter steer?

Or maybe..... For a laugh. If using a hand signal to indicate turning left on a classic bike, how are you steering?

Don't fix what ain't broken and have a full understanding of motorcycle dynamics.

Just sayin.:shutup:

[george formby]

Get someone who knows their stuff to show you. Counter steering can be done with gusto but yeah if you get carried away with it, you'll be on your butt.

In a bend you can add some counter steering to tighten the path of the bike, so it helps to know how your bike responds to the push input on the inside bar.

Yeah, build up the practice.

I've got as far as 3mtrs lateral travel each way (evasion maneuver) for 10 - 15 mtrs traveled forward at 40 - 50kmh. A bit more than counter steering involved and it's quite violent. Great fun, too.

I'm sure this can be improved upon, but I would rather use someone elses bike.

[eldog]

Get someone who knows their stuff to show you. Counter steering can be done with gusto but yeah if you get carried away with it, you'll be on your butt.

In a bend you can add some counter steering to tighten the path of the bike, so it helps to know how your bike responds to the push input on the inside bar.
ok

i seem to countersteer to make it around the corner as I see it.

but occasionally I need to corner more than current position.
eg underestimated corner, vehicle or furniture wrong side of road etc.
the speed isn’t to great, it’s changing position on road I want to improve/work on.

While I do get some good advice I also plan to get more expert advice. Once I get more comfortable riding the bike.
a couple of thousand k rides did it for the last bike.

[caspernz]

ok

i seem to countersteer to make it around the corner as I see it.

but occasionally I need to corner more than current position.
eg underestimated corner, vehicle or furniture wrong side of road etc.
the speed isn’t to great, it’s changing position on road I want to improve/work on.

Planned to get more expert advice sometime when I get more comfortable riding the bike.

Good starting point is the Ride Forever courses. Best to get some advice first, as doing the right thing will make you more comfortable on the bike.

Apart from counter steering, couple of other ways to tighten up a corner, but that's best taught in situ rather than over a keyboard...:eek:

[eldog]

Not planning on a ride forever course.

dont expect keyboard training, just an outline.

i now know it’s ok to push harder, getting over a self imposed limitation, will be difficult, but not impossible. Just time and practise. The path is now visible I just need to ride it, usual story.

[george formby]

Not planning on a ride forever course.

dont expect keyboard training, just an outline.

i now know it’s ok to push harder, getting over a self imposed limitation, will be difficult, but not impossible. Just time and practise. The path is now visible I just need to ride it, usual story.

I cannot advocate slow speed practice enough, car park training. Counter steering is limited as it is speed dependent but head and body position, throttle and brake control to steer and stand the bike up, pegs, gripping the bike.... it goes on. As the speed increases counter steering has more of an effect but it's not the be all and all of getting around a corner.
I had to learn all this stuff in the saddle with a trainer beating me with a huge stick, computer said no chance. It's just too weird. Hands on training is the way to go.
IMHO

[eldog]

I cannot advocate slow speed practice enough, car park training. Counter steering is limited as it is speed dependent but head and body position, throttle and brake control to steer and stand the bike up, pegs, gripping the bike.... it goes on. As the speed increases counter steering has more of an effect but it's not the be all and all of getting around a corner.
I had to learn all this stuff in the saddle with a trainer beating me with a huge stick, computer said no chance. It's just too weird. Hands on training is the way to go.
IMHO

Agreed.
i know it’s more than one thing.
i need that type of training as well as being comfortable on the bike.
just not yet.
i already have someone in mind. I am following his advice, to go when I feel comfortable on the bike.

[Coldrider]

Going into a corner too hot, hit the picks and the bike stands back up, sending you over the white line, counter steer it back down and follow your intended line. Practice that, when you can put it all together you can go in way hotter.

[Akzle]

Cassina/Axehole bait much?
You just know that these clowns will turn this thread to shit by the end of tomorrow...

great contribution to the thread!

you're a fuckwit.

[Laava]

great contribution to the thread!

you're a fuckwit.

No doubt your boyfriend Cassina will be along any minute, mind you, you follow him so closely that your head is probably up his arse

[eldog]

Going into a corner too hot, hit the picks and the bike stands back up, sending you over the white line.

This doesn't happen very often - going in to hot. More cautious, as I lived in Franklin area for a while and VERY AWARE of dickheads crossing the median.

It is more to do with, the position on the road, I want to be able to modify it.
It seems that I set a maximum counter steer and that's all.
I want to be able to adjust my own ability and get an idea of how much further I can trust the bike.

[YellowDog]

This doesn't happen very often - going in to hot. More cautious, as I lived in Franklin area for a while and VERY AWARE of dickheads crossing the median.

It is more to do with, the position on the road, I want to be able to modify it.
It seems that I set a maximum counter steer and that's all.
I want to be able to adjust my own ability and get an idea of how much further I can trust the bike.

You need to take the right line for the bend. If you are ending up on the wrong side of the road, you are turning in too early. Counter steering won't help you if your speed and line are wrong. All that will happen is that your corrective counter-steer will cause a low-side and down you go.

[GrahamA]

There's more to this issue than the term. The technique itself is counter-intuitive ... which means thinking consciously about what we're doing can be more of a hindrance than a help.

Brain biology is such that rational, conscious thought is a relatively slow process compared to instinctive/subconscious thought, and slower still compared to reflexes. In moments of life-or-death crisis, you don't want to be mentally ticking a checklist, reciting some trite acronym or risk-assessing your options.

Soooo (with respect) it's a technique better learnt by individuals through practice and experience, rather than teachers/trainers and classes ... but maybe there is a need to kick-start the learning process? Actually, I'm not even sure about that: has anyone been taught to countersteer a bicycle? It's the same principle. And yet, without it being pointed out, most of us manage to ride a bike, admittedly with the odd grazed knee.

I agree with you to a large extent. If you practice something constantly it will become conditioned reflex. Let's start with the simple message, Push the bar towards the inside of the intended turn. Nothing difficult nor negative about it and soon learned.

[GrahamA]

In a bend you can add some counter steering to tighten the path of the bike, so it helps to know how your bike responds to the push input on the inside bar.

Absolutely. On my Buell I must hold forward pressure on the inside bar when banked more than slightly or the bike will want to stand up.

[MarkH]

By now almost everyone riding a bike must know about so called COUNTER-STEERING unless they're an absolute novice. Most others will also know how it works and why. A few might even know how it got the name. Many more, but not everyone, will know that we all do it all the time whether we realise it or not or our bikes wouldn't start to turn, even the ones which require you only to think, turn, to start the turn and it'll do it.

I prefer to call the phenomenon PUSH-STEERING, because it's what we really are doing. I want to turn to the left so I push forward on the left 'bar. For right it's the opposite. Even after riding for so long I still do it consciously whenever I want to initiate a rapid change of direction and just before coming to a complete stop so that the bike will cant slightly towards the foot I intend to put on the ground.


How about this: We don't actually steer the bike, we use the bar inputs to control the lean angle and then the bike steers itself. If you need to turn harder then you make the bike lean over more and it will turn harder. Not that you need to consciously think about this.

Anyone that rides a bicycle or motorcycle automatically does the right thing to make it steer. The example posted (with scary video) of the biker not turning the right way has nothing to do with not counter-steering, it is an example of target fixation - the rider should have focused on the gap and aimed for it instead of focusing on the obstacle and panicking. Saying that he should have cognitively understood counter steering is absolute nonsense, he didn't have time to think anyway, his instinctive reactions were not correctly trained.

[Cosmik de Bris]

How about this: We don't actually steer the bike, we use the bar inputs to control the lean angle and then the bike steers itself. If you need to turn harder then you make the bike lean over more and it will turn harder. Not that you need to consciously think about this.


Yes this is pretty much what happens. I think that riding a push bike and a motor bike are slightly different. Most of us learn on push bikes where our weight is comparable to the bike weight and so weight shifting causes the bike to turn with little input to the bars. A motor bike is much heavier and at any speed it is difficult to use weight alone to steer so some bar input is needed, as you said it is pretty automatic. All you have to do is get the bike slightly off balance and the trail does the rest. Flipping the bike left to right quickly though needs quite a bit of levering on the bars and probably has to be learned.

Cheers

[GrahamA]

I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

[YellowDog]

I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

Counter-steering is what it is and what it's called.

It's equally 'Pull-Steering' as it is 'Push-Steering', but you are free to call it whatever you like. Don't be disappointed if you fail to get global acknowledgement and I wouldn't waste too much time and money on buying the domain names, to sell on :no:

Quite an infantile thread really :yes:

[Berries]

I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering
I think we should call braking 'retardation' however I don't think it would work given some of the 'brakes' on KB.

[george formby]

I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

I hear ya. My post was not a shot at your topic, just tongue in cheek. Whatever you feel like calling it, it still needs to be explained how the the physics work.

I've never ridden a Buell but it still has the same characteristics as other bikes but in different measures. That's why I mentioned trials bikes, you have to steer with the footrests, the handlebars are for attaching things too and controlling wheelies.

All moving bikes stand up without rider input.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eHVdbGQJvYA" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[ellipsis]

...Anything Could Happen In The Next Half Hour...Roger That...THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!...:woohoo::Punk::love::wings:

[AllanB]

Wheelies should be called motorcycle erections.

I like braking being retardation as mentioned earlier.

If braking while doing a wheelie you have a retarded erection.

A surprise wheelie would clearly be a premature erection.

[george formby]

Wheelies should be called motorcycle erections.

I like braking being retardation as mentioned earlier.

If braking while doing a wheelie you have a retarded erection.

A surprise wheelie would clearly be a premature erection.

Quite often i have to retard a premature erection. Which is a shame. I would like to keep it up for longer.

[AllanB]

Quite often i have to retard a premature erection. Which is a shame. I would like to keep it up for longer.

Possibly a little of the OP's 'push-pull' could help with keeping it up?

[GazzaH]

I like braking being retardation as mentioned earlier.

So does that make acceleration counterbraking?

Or am I retarded?

[BMWST?]

even if you are going below the speed that you dont need to steer the bike you can still use counter steering to transition from one side to the other.You dont tend to counter steer trials bike becuase you are ussually going below that speed where you dont need to "steer"

[AllanB]

So does that make acceleration counterbraking?



Hmm - it would be counter-retardation. Thus not being a retard so this must mean acceleration is good (but not past buses - that is retarded).

[Murray]

By now almost everyone riding a bike must know about so called COUNTER-STEERING unless they're an absolute novice.
I prefer to call the phenomenon PUSH-STEERING, because it's what we really are doing. I want to turn to the left so I push forward on the left 'bar. For right it's the opposite.

Tell Keith Code, he might rewrite his books for you? Todays modern day crap does my head in. Another panadol please

[eldog]

I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

Sorry if you think I have derailed your OP.

was trying to expand my knowledge about how far this method of steering can go.

its that being able to commit to that extra, firm push I don’t currently have.

myself I Prefer push steering, but countersteer is easier to identify with

[george formby]

even if you are going below the speed that you dont need to steer the bike you can still use counter steering to transition from one side to the other.You dont tend to counter steer trials bike becuase you are ussually going below that speed where you dont need to "steer"

Far to factual and sensible.:cool:

[YellowDog]

PMSL - Nice work guys. How you all held it all back for so long................ :lol:

[george formby]

Sorry if you think I have derailed your OP.

was trying to expand my knowledge about how far this method of steering can go.

its that being able to commit to that extra, firm push I don’t currently have.

myself I Prefer push steering, but countersteer is easier to identify with

In all seriousness. Weaving around in a car park will lift your game and increase your confidence in leaning immensely.

Blew my mind after decades of riding without ongoing training..

[Akzle]

Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

which should, by training, be your default response.

this "use of positive language" shit is just psychobable.

it's the same thing doing sikk skidz in a car au. your steering input is *counter* to the intended path. the arse end controls the vector.

[Akzle]

So does that make acceleration counterbraking?

Or am I retarded?

rbcifgip .

[Akzle]

hmm - it would be counter-retardation. Thus not being a retard so this must mean acceleration is good (but not past buses - that is retarded).

rbcifgip .

[pete376403]

not knowing about (insert your favourite name here) aka counter steering is why newbies crash into things they were hoping to avoid. See a hazard, instinctively turn the bars to swerve away and and bang, counter steer effect puts then straight into it.

[Cosmik de Bris]

I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.


Well, you can call things whatever you like but there are established terms. As others have pointed out some people think of it as pulling on the bars so your terminology is no less confusing. As for topic creep, it seems to be the norm unfortunately.


Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

Or pull. Actually I noticed that I twist, i.e. pull and push, unless I am riding one handed.

Cheers

[YellowDog]

not knowing about (insert your favourite name here) aka counter steering is why newbies crash into things they were hoping to avoid. See a hazard, instinctively turn the bars to swerve away and and bang, counter steer effect puts then straight into it.

Yes, that's a good analogy. The brain instinctively (insert ridiculous alternative here)s, subconsciously. However once a panic situation occurs, and the conscious thought processes kick in; left = right AND right = left (you know.... the bike counter-steers), many riders are unaware of such laws of physics, governing (insert ridiculous alternative here), so will unfortunately fail to avoid the hazard, or fail to safely negotiate a bend.

Some call this 'Target Fixation' - Personally I thinks that's BS. With the exception of ladies breasts, 'Target Fixation', from a motorcycling perspective, doesn't exist and is just a weak excuse for not understanding (insert ridiculous alternative here).

Now we've fully addressed the (insert ridiculous alternative here) issue; can someone please start a new tread on changing the term 'Target Fixation' to: Rider does not understanding (insert ridiculous alternative here) ?

[george formby]

Hmmmmmm. I reckon target fixation is a thing but I also agree that a conscious steering response often works in reverse leading to scenery visits.

My loosest bowel moments on bikes have been saved by turning my head, everything else followed. Turning my head was the only conscious action. (Look for the f*&^%$g gap!)

I remember (vividly) being caught up by a sprot bike on a twisty country road in the UK. Being immature I upped the pace, probably past my limits. Deep into a corner a huge tree appeared in front of me, the corner continuing to tighten. It really caught my attention!

I recall tearing my startled gaze away from the tree and into the corner, the bike followed. No drama, ultimately. No idea what my steering input was.

What I still think about is the sprot bike. It did not appear in my mirrors again despite me taking a chill pill. You can guess my line of thought on this...... Quite uncomfortable.

[YellowDog]

Hmmmmmm. I reckon target fixation is a thing but I also agree that a conscious steering response often works in reverse leading to scenery visits.

My loosest bowel moments on bikes have been saved by turning my head, everything else followed. Turning my head was the only conscious action. (Look for the f*&^%$g gap!)

I remember (vividly) being caught up by a sprot bike on a twisty country road in the UK. Being immature I upped the pace, probably past my limits. Deep into a corner a huge tree appeared in front of me, the corner continuing to tighten. It really caught my attention!

I recall tearing my startled gaze away from the tree and into the corner, the bike followed. No drama, ultimately. No idea what my steering input was.

What I still think about is the sprot bike. It did not appear in my mirrors again despite me taking a chill pill. You can guess my line of thought on this...... Quite uncomfortable.

Congrats on having instincts, that saved you. Some can do that instinctively, but many can't and unless they understand (insert ridiculous alternative here), the scenery may not be totally splendid :no:

For me, 'Target Fixation' is caused by the rider attempting to tighten the turn, but steering the wrong way, due to not understanding (insert ridiculous alternative here). They wouldn't be fixed on the target, if they were able to steer away from it. The action of looking away, to the intended/safe direction of travel, allows the subconscious brain to make it all happen. That's not an easy thing to achieve, in such butt clenching scenarios.

But yes, I do take your point :yes:

[george formby]

Congrats on having instincts, that saved you. Some can do that instinctively, but many can't and unless they understand (insert ridiculous alternative here), the scenery may not be totally splendid :no:

For me, 'Target Fixation' is caused by the rider attempting to tighten the turn, but steering the wrong way, due to not understanding (insert ridiculous alternative here). They wouldn't be fixed on the target, if they were able to steer away from it. The action of looking away, to the intended/safe direction of travel, allows the subconscious brain to make it all happen. That's not an easy thing to achieve, in such butt clenching scenarios.

But yes, I do take your point :yes:

It is definitely a conscious decision, with teeth gritted and buttocks clenched. Should be easy, tree or road? Doesn't feel like that.

I guess you could say that reacting to such a scenario without consideration of the physics would make the rider a puller when they really should have been a pusher..

Makes a good case for being counter to new spin on old techniques.

[GazzaH]

"No idea what my steering input was" sums it up nicely.

In a life-or-death crisis situation with the [immovable object] looming large, conscious probably thought doesn't come into it. We revert to the subconscious behaviors we've learnt and practiced or, as the last resort, fall back on our instincts (we throw up our arms, close our eyes and scream like girlies!).

So, the question is whether consciously thinking about [weird counterintuitive motorbike steering trick thing] helps at all. I'm still not convinced. Personally, I feel I've learnt it by doing, not by any class or book, not even the amassed KB expertise.

If anything, rationally deciding which side to push or pull would be a distraction at the worst possible moment, but I don't think it would happen.

"Look and lean", or simply "Look", trumps the Mastermind approach, for me.

YMMV (Your Motorcycling May Vary)

[george formby]

"Look and lean", or simply "Look", trumps the Mastermind approach, for me.

YMMV (Your Motorcycling May Vary)

Yup. It's an amazing dynamic but you're absolutely right. Turn that big heavy turnip on me shoulders and the bike follows accordingly.

I would love to see an ultra slow mo vid of how the head instigates a turn, preferably a scantily clad nubile demonstrating so I can see the change in muscle and subtle body position interactions as the body follows the command.:innocent:

[GazzaH]

All the nubiles I know are well-clad, I'm afraid, but I shall continue searching, for research purposes.

[Akzle]

it. We revert to the subconscious behaviors we've learnt and practiced or, as the last resort, fall back on our instincts)

t.r.a.i.n.e.d.

reflexes aint worth shit if they're the wrong ones.

the sam'rai used to drill until their sword reflexes were "no-mind"

and it's oft repeated that the difference between a hobby and a skill is ten thousand hours.

(of course, doing the same shit wrong for 10000 hours would just make you more of a fuckwit, which brings me roundly back to point A)

[eldog]

Brain fade occurs, not target fixation.

this is what I want to overcome.

the original push input may have been ok at start of manoeuvre, but corners do tighten or dip away.


brain fade it’s that simple, quite aware of situation.
dont seem to be able to activate response from body.
i am guessing the subconscious needs to be programmed.
i think it doesn’t know what to do, or how much more input can be used.
there is also a struggle with the turn away from current position. Ie turn left required, turn left handlebars aka Yellowdog’s description

[george formby]

Brain fade occurs, not target fixation.

this is what I want to overcome.

the original push input may have been ok at start of manoeuvre, but corners do tighten or dip away.


brain fade it’s that simple, quite aware of situation.
dont seem to be able to activate response from body.
i am guessing the subconscious needs to be programmed.
i think it doesn’t know what to do, or how much more input can be used.
there is also a struggle with the turn away from current position. Ie turn left required, turn left handlebars aka Yellowdog’s description

I ride enduro, trials and road as time allows. There is a massive overlap in control and bike dynamics, believe it or not. Every time I ride, whatever bike I'm on, I make a point of finding a place or space to practice relevant techniques. I don't feel I've had a good ride unless I spend a little time re-enforcing my basic skills.

Sorry to bang on, time is not your friend, but a little bit of practice when you can goes a long way.

All the best.

[actungbaby]

Synthetic or mineral oil?

Road or race tyre pressures?

Accelerate or brake for that bus?

Vagina or Vage?

Counter or push/pull?


These ARE the dividing questions on a motorcycle forum.

Typical of u stalewarts this what drives new people from sticking there heads above the parapit .
Stop nit picking for gods sakes .
Dont see u ever posting a fresh idea.
Let alone a post aghhhh .
And the so called sexuall humour enough already .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[actungbaby]

Cassina/Axehole bait much?
You just know that these clowns will turn this thread to shit by the end of tomorrow...

I agree sir enough already i stop reading or bothering replying .
I suspect thats there goal . Shout down everone . Where modulation on here .
Dont be fooled this site is owned and person behind it makes good money .
So at moment he thinks this bs is not worth him loosing money . By being basicaly responding to in case he . Drives people away . But opposite is true . Needs us to express are thoughts on are web forum . Either that or he has these 4 i say . We all know them .to weed out . People negitive mods .
I used follow amiga computer forums.
They use very same software .
U get the same deal . There .maybe need time out . Go do something else .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

I hear ya. My post was not a shot at your topic, just tongue in cheek. Whatever you feel like calling it, it still needs to be explained how the the physics work.

It doesn't need explaining in order to work. The ability is hard wired, it's programmed into your "how to not fall over while balancing on those long poles you move around on" control system. Try changing direction while running and look where your feet go: in the opposite direction you want to turn, which puts your center of mass over your feet for the turn. Exactly the same input you use on your bike, minimal training required.


I've never ridden a Buell but it still has the same characteristics as other bikes but in different measures. That's why I mentioned trials bikes, you have to steer with the footrests, the handlebars are for attaching things too and controlling wheelies.

The technique for steering a trials bike uses more inputs, but the objective is exactly the same: keep your center of mass over the bike's contact patches, the lateral displacement is just way less, reflecting the much lower forces involved at slow speeds.

Also: Try a Buell. Seriously different. Look at the geometry to start with, they're closer to a trials bike than you might imagine.

[GrahamA]

Also: Try a Buell. Seriously different. Look at the geometry to start with, they're closer to a trials bike than you might imagine.

Indeed. While Buells are an acquired taste, I love mine which I've had since new in 2007. 88,000km of absolute delight. Nothing has ever fallen off, broken or given any trouble.

It sure is a demanding bike to ride though, requiring the rider to show it who's boss and consciously steer the bloody thing all the time. No think-steering here. It needs push-steering at anything you'd call a real bend, both to initiate the bank and to hold the bike in it. Fork rake 21 degrees, trail 83mm, wheelbase 1370mm, wet weight 213kg, power 75kW, torque 110Nm, fun factor 10/10.

All that push-steering has translated into conditioned reflex now to the degree that all the other bikes I ride tend to over-steer initially until I remember not to push-steer so aggressively.

Long ago I had a new ST1100 and by using push-steering consciously it could give a good impersonation of a sport bike on twisty roads. I recall being on a rally ride at that time with a guy riding two-up on a Goldwing and boy could he ride that thing by 'rowing it' along the most winding roads. Make no mistake, conscious push-steering can make even huge bikes surprisingly agile with a rider who knows the technique.

Contrary to what I've read here, getting the ultimate from a bike's steering does need to be learned. That's why the early discoverers of the technique called it counter-steering because it was counter to what had been understood before that.

And who did coin the term? Research The Hurst Report on the Causes of Motorcycle Crashes.

[onearmedbandit]

Dont be fooled this site is owned and person behind it makes good money .


Care to back that up?

[Berries]

Reading the post above the term looks and sounds so unnatural, regardless of whether it is an accurate description of the physics and biomechanics involved.

I suppose when you think of it you don't ride a motorbike, you propel it.

Perhaps we are all propellers?



stalewarts
I'd get them seen to.

[GazzaH]

Prop heads in some cases.

But your comment suggests a different line of rider/safety training, that of 'becoming one with the machine'.

In many fields, there's a level of competence where the machine and the operator work in perfect harmony, like each is an extension or a part of the other. Reaching that point is a different kind of goal to just learning how to countersteer - a much grander objective. Turning the bar, twisting the turnip, shifting weight, leaning etc. are mere mechanics. Riding competently involves not just mastering the individual mechanisms but putting them all together into a seamless, fluid flow. Top notch riders are graceful. They make it appear easy and natural.

It's a bit zen, maybe, but it's an alternative worth considering I reckon.

[Cosmik de Bris]

Contrary to what I've read here, getting the ultimate from a bike's steering does need to be learned.



I think it does. Yes normal riding around doesn't require anything special, we're animals, we balance. But you said getting the ultimate, and here I think you do need to learn some things. To flip a bike side to side going through esses takes strength and deliberate actions on the bars. I went to a training thing with Graeme Crosby at Ruapuna, a few years ago now, and he was teaching us how to turn the front wheel into the corner to pick the bike up quickly (now called counter steering). That wasn't something that came naturally, we practised and we learned it.

Cheers

[YellowDog]

Contrary to what I've read here, getting the ultimate from a bike's steering does need to be learned. That's why the early discoverers of the technique called it counter-steering because it was counter to what had been understood before that.


If you turn the steering to the left, the front wheel points left, but the bike leans right. So it's a counter steer. Couldn't really be anything else :no:

Unless you are an ape, with long arms and legs, able to shift your entire body weight a metre towards the side you wish to turn; hence causing the bike to lean, you use a technique appropriately named counter-steering. There are other vehicles too that have a counter steering system, not requiring a push or a pull.

I know it is always dangerous to assume, so I hope this is not an unreasonable question to ask: Do you by chance only have one arm?

[Berries]

I take it you can't have an alternative term for this on four wheels because you can actually 'counter' steer in a car. Perhaps counter is the correct word because you are actually doing something 'counter' to what would feel to be natural. Perhaps we should be thinking about the word steering which is patently something you cannot do on a bike because you do not have a steering wheel.


Question. Those women who do boobs on bikes each year. Are they counter-tops?

[YellowDog]

We all do steer our bikes, with a combination of: Using handle bars, road line, weight distribution, road camber, speed, throttle, & brakes.

It's not as simplistic as just pushing a bar, so some of our 'experts' have a lot to learn, as well as continuing to mislead those not knowing better. When you actually decide to perform the steering action is also critical to the outcome.

To take a 90 degree low speed left turn, you counter steer to the right, to set up the lean, and then turn the handlebars leftwards, in the direction of the bend, and not in a counter direction. SO IT'S NOT A COUNTER-STEER AND NOT A PUSH STEER EITHER. At lower speeds, this appears like swinging out, before the turn. Some just lean their weight, because that's just how they do it, but you can't make a sharp turn, just by leaning, and when there's an acute camber, it can be dangerous.

[Moi]

Download this: In Full Control (http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/ridersafety/Full%20Control_2013.pdf)...

[Banditbandit]

I don'tr really give a fuck what it is called - but if you say "push steering" people will have no clue - counter-steering they know what you are talking about ..



Is there a limit to how hard you can counter steer?

if so how can you tell.....

apparantly i don’t do enough of it.


Yes. When the bars move in relation to the frame - and twist the front wheel - you will know when you fall off.



Your speed and the acuteness of the bend are the determining factors. If you fall off, you've over cooked it.

Exactly ...


Lets start now.:yes:

Do you counter steer a trials bike?

No idea - not a trials rider - just an impressed spectator.


Which leads too...... Does counter steering still work at slow speeds?

At low speeds I counter-steer significantly more than at high speeds, and, at the same time lean out instead of leaning in. This works realy well on small bikes - less so on big bikes - it's very dependent on your bike and your ability ..



And we come too.... Do moto gymkhana riders counter steer?

I suspect so - when I have taken part (infrequently and years ago I certainly did - whether that is god practice or not I have no idea.


Or maybe..... For a laugh. If using a hand signal to indicate turning left on a classic bike, how are you steering?

You get the same effect pulling back on the right bar - the problem in that scenario is that it is too easy to overcook it and dump the bike -as there is no counter pressure on the other bar to stop the front wheel twisting ..

What counter-steering does is upset the balance of the bike - the physics of a bike are set up so that it is perfectly balanced in a straight line ... to then a corner you need to upset the balance. Counter-steering achieves this by pushing the motorcycle down - on the side you are turning into .. it is not turning the bars in either direction - if you turn the bars you're going down ..

At the same time I balance the bike on the throttle - increasing the throttle tends to lift the bike up - I do this in corners I'm a little hot in - drop the shoulder and open the throttle ... the weight keeps the bike down, balanced by the extra engine speed - overall effect is a good corner ..

[Banditbandit]

To take a 90 degree low speed left turn, you counter steer to the right, to set up the lean, and then turn the handlebars leftwards,

I don't think this is quite what you mean - if you do that you will dump the bike ...

This may be what you think you are doing - but you are not turning the bars, you are pushing the whole bike down into the corners ..

[YellowDog]

I don't think this is quite what you mean - if you do that you will dump the bike ...

This may be what you think you are doing - but you are not turning the bars, you are pushing the whole bike down into the corners ..

OK fair enough. The way I see/feel it, is that once I steer into the bend, by following the line of the bend, with the steering, you are steering the bike from going over too far and low siding.

[Ocean1]

I don't think this is quite what you mean - if you do that you will dump the bike ...

This may be what you think you are doing - but you are not turning the bars, you are pushing the whole bike down into the corners ..

I think that's exactly what he meant, and in fact that's exactly what happens.

Have a look at pic's 1-3, page 12 on that wee item Moi posted.

[YellowDog]

Download this: In Full Control (http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/ridersafety/Full%20Control_2013.pdf)...

Love the quote:

[Banditbandit]

I think that's exactly what he meant, and in fact that's exactly what happens.

Have a look at pic's 1-3, page 12 on that wee item Moi posted.

I've read it - it does not contradict what I have said at all ..

[AllanB]

You girls are overthinking this shit.

Know it - try it. Learn.


Great quote in the above post.

[george formby]

Some posts have made me think about steering a bike. As said, you can't.

So, turning a bike? You would use the handlebars to do that, to steer the front wheel using leverage. :no: Yeah, na.

Do aeroplanes counter steer? Anyone watched Red Bull air racing?:eek:

Yup, I reckon high performance planes do the jink, too.

Which is my thought. We aim to control the bank, velocity, balance, traction and pitch of a motorcycle. We guide it.

Someone posted about being at one with the bike, smooth, state of nirvana, kinda.

Bikes are the closest thing you can get to flying without leaving the ground. The handlebars keep us in contact with whats happening and carry a lot of controls handy:rolleyes:

The bars give us a point of perspective and assistance with weight and gyroscopic effects. Making a bike turn is all about weight distribution and velocity. Subtlety in all dimensions.

Just sayin. I could be wrong.:drinknsin

Oh, and something to hang on to.

[actungbaby]

Care to back that up?

Why should i must be foolish if it was reg as a charity i dobt it . What do u think adds are on here for free . Geez .


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[YellowDog]

Why should i must be foolish if it was reg as a charity i dobt it . What do u think adds are on here for free . Geez .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There you go: https://www.worthofweb.com/website-value/www.kiwibiker.co.nz/

It says the site is worth about US$18k.

How much do you think advertisers pay for their banners? $100 per month or $100,000 per month?

Please share this global conspiracy theory?

Is Kiwibiker taking over the country and we're all just too dumb to see it?

[FJRider]

Why should i must be foolish if it was reg as a charity i dobt it . What do u think adds are on here for free . Geez .

Translation: (always required with your posts) ... You CAN"T.

Adds are to cover costs. Just appreciate the service/amusement this site provides you (FREE) ... or fuck off.

[FJRider]

... Is Kiwibiker taking over the country and we're all just too dumb to see it?

Vote Spank me for PM (or King .. ???) ... <_<

[YellowDog]

Vote Spank me for PM (or King .. ???) ... <_<

I put 'Spank me' down as my chosen religion on the recent census.

He'd make a good PM. No restrictions on pron, might make an attractive vote winning policy :yes:

'King Spank', also has a nice ring to it too :lol:

I guess with that huge amount of money coming in through the KB doors, I guess he could offer us all $1,000 to vote for him.

[nzspokes]

Countersteer until shit starts dragging on the road. That's probably enough.

[AllanB]

Countersteer until shit starts dragging on the road. That's probably enough.


THIS.

End of discussion.

[pete376403]

Watch a speedway bike in the bend - thats extreme countersteer

[russd7]

Watch a speedway bike in the bend - thats extreme countersteer

thats not just extreme countersteer, thats just f**kn awesome, shame we don't have more solo riders in NZ, shame our Media don't support these sports.
good line up at Oretipark speedway this coming weekend, cant wait :drool: now that shit brings on "Frisson" (look it up here https://www.salon.com/2016/05/29/an_orgasm_for_the_skin_partner/ )

[Cosmik de Bris]

thats not just extreme countersteer, thats just f**kn awesome, shame we don't have more solo riders in NZ, shame our Media don't support these sports.
good line up at Oretipark speedway this coming weekend, cant wait :drool: now that shit brings on "Frisson" (look it up here https://www.salon.com/2016/05/29/an_orgasm_for_the_skin_partner/ )

The days of Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs, and Ivan Mauger are long gone unfortunately. Love and support for speedway has dropped off, at least the solo bike stuff. It seemed to depend on who was running the track, it got to be mainly car guys down our way.

Cheers

[Crasherfromwayback]

Watch a speedway bike in the bend - thats extreme countersteer

Cool as it is, it's actually got nothing to do with it.

[george formby]

Cool as it is, it's actually got nothing to do with it.

Yup. :clap:

So what's the correct term for controlling the direction of travel using the rear wheel under power?

Bearing in mind, the only time we have control of a bike is under power. The rest of the time we manage (guide?) the bike.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yup. :clap:

So what's the correct term for controlling the direction of travel using the rear wheel under power?

Bearing in mind, the only time we have control of a bike is under power. The rest of the time we manage (guide?) the bike.

Sliding, or rear wheel steering.

[Akzle]

So what's the correct term for controlling the direction of travel using the rear wheel under power?

"fokken sikk skidz au bro"

[MarkH]

Yup. :clap:

So what's the correct term for controlling the direction of travel using the rear wheel under power?



Well, you asked for it:
https://youtu.be/ch0UA-2B-sU

[russd7]

The days of Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs, and Ivan Mauger are long gone unfortunately. Love and support for speedway has dropped off, at least the solo bike stuff. It seemed to depend on who was running the track, it got to be mainly car guys down our way.

Cheers

up your way ya got moore park and ya actually have a handful of very talented riders a couple of who will be at Oreti park this weekend, the side cars are a lot stronger there and down here as well and although i enjoy them they still don't bring the chills that the smell and noise and skill of the solos bring. Oreti Park has a very strong junior rank solo and peewees but the problem is going to be keeping these young riders on solo bikes and it is already looking like one of our most promising and talented young riders will end up on the tarmac.

it was really good to see Bradley wilson-dean down here for the NZ Solo GP.

anyway what was the OP about :Oops:

[Akzle]

. .

[Murray]

. .

Is that your 2 brain cells??

[T.W.R]

up your way ya got moore park

We had two tracks in ChCh once :yes: Ruapuna & Aranui even had long track held at Addington raceway quite a few years back ;) another event like that would spur up some interest

[Akzle]

Is that your 2 brain cells??

i am unable to delete my own posts because c*ssina is a fuckwit and gremlin is a pussy.

and you're starting to sound like a fuckwit too.

i doubt you have the IQ to play insults with me.

[russd7]

We had two tracks in ChCh once :yes: Ruapuna & Aranui even had long track held at Addington raceway quite a few years back ;) another event like that would spur up some interest

they ran the long track down here at ascot a few time as well but unfortunately it has been canned, lotsa rumours as to why and depends who ya talk to,
but without support these sports drop off and its bloody hard to get the nz gutter press to print any sport that isn't rugby, league, cricket or golf.

[Cosmik de Bris]

We had two tracks in ChCh once :yes: Ruapuna & Aranui even had long track held at Addington raceway quite a few years back ;) another event like that would spur up some interest

Never got to Aranui but I did see that long track at Addington.

Cheers

[T.W.R]

Never got to Aranui but I did see that long track at Addington.

Aranui had a pretty short life :yes: but it's where Mauger, Moore, & Briggs all cut their teeth as young fellas ;)
It was a proper cinder track circuit and came about after the demise of Monica Park in the late 30s. It was on Rowan Ave just off Pages Rd

[ellipsis]

Never got to Aranui but I did see that long track at Addington.

Cheers


...my aunties house in Aranui was built around about the same place as the start/finish line...my first outing on my XV750 Yammy flat tracker was there (Addington)...as it transpired, I had a bit of a problem with set up, I only finished building it the day before and the only test was a quick lap or two in a big stony paddock out my way the evening before...it was well set up by Ascot Park and I can say without a second thought, that those two meetings that Mauger put on in Invercargill were the best motorcycle racing memories of my life...a sad memory now as one of my bestest buddies who was shadowing me with a meter separation and rooster tails 30 feet long didn't wake up a couple of weeks ago...cherished memories now even moreso...

[granstar]

Is that your 2 brain cells??

. . Just Looks like a counter steer to me. Too much thinking I think, just lean on the bars and you'll make it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQRFkgWuM40


Oreti Park Speedway is very well run due to diehard volunteer help and spectator support. Yes more riders needed but it is a money sport, some of the peewees are developing into great riders as they move up the bikes to 80cc, 125, 250's.
I may be wrong on this but the dearly loved longtrack at the Ascot went like the Burt Munro Street Race where little old ladies complained bitterly about the smell of av gas coming over their fences ??

[Coldrider]

. . Just Looks like a counter steer to me. Too much thinking I think, just lean on the bars and you'll make it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQRFkgWuM40


Oreti Park Speedway is very well run due to diehard volunteer help and spectator support. Yes more riders needed but it is a money sport, some of the peewees are developing into great riders as they move up the bikes to 80cc, 125, 250's.
I may be wrong on this but the dearly loved longtrack at the Ascot went like the Burt Munro Street Race where little old ladies complained bitterly about the smell of av gas coming over their fences ??probably thought it was Burt burning his lawns before heading off back to bonnie.

[Murray]

i doubt you have the IQ to play insults with me.

I have more than . .

You really are up yourself aren't you

[Daffyd]

Yup. :clap:

So what's the correct term for controlling the direction of travel using the rear wheel under power?

Bearing in mind, the only time we have control of a bike is under power. The rest of the time we manage (guide?) the bike.

Throttle steering.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Throttle steering.

Yeah Boi! 335604

[husaberg]

Throttle steering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwSIX0lNSVo

[Akzle]

I have more than . .

You really are up yourself aren't you

oooh. such wit. that one cut straight to the bone.

[Tazz]

Give it a try.

Is 'counter steering' actually something you can't not do even sub consciously to a certain degree? Would be interested to hear an instructors take on it.

[Daffyd]

Is 'counter steering' actually something you can't not do even sub consciously to a certain degree? Would be interested to hear an instructors take on it.

I wouldn't know the answer to that one, but I do know that when I took up riding again after some years, I had never heard of counter steering. After attending a Ride Safe Ride Right course where it was explained to me, I tried it on some twisties near where I lived and the difference was unbelievable!

I may have been doing it unconsciously before, but after doing it deliberately made a huge difference!

[russd7]

I wouldn't know the answer to that one, but I do know that when I took up riding again after some years, I had never heard of counter steering. After attending a Ride Safe Ride Right course where it was explained to me, I tried it on some twisties near where I lived and the difference was unbelievable!

I may have been doing it unconsciously before, but after doing it deliberately made a huge difference!

yeah the chaslands a good training ground

[Daffyd]

yeah the chaslands a good training ground

So good that I often rode past home to the end of the road for a bit of 'extra training'!

[rastuscat]

Motorcycle dynamics would make a great masters degree topic. It's that complex.

That's why we stick to the basics on courses. Until someone has a deep understanding of motorcycle dynamics ( I don't) the advanced stuff is like black magic.

We dont talk about counter steering on Ride Forever courses. It opens too many cans of worms.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Until someone has a deep understanding of motorcycle dynamics ( I don't) the advanced stuff is like black magic.

We dont talk about counter steering on Ride Forever courses. It opens too many cans of worms.

It's not rocket science mate.

[Tazz]

Motorcycle dynamics would make a great masters degree topic. It's that complex.

That's why we stick to the basics on courses. Until someone has a deep understanding of motorcycle dynamics ( I don't) the advanced stuff is like black magic.

We dont talk about counter steering on Ride Forever courses. It opens too many cans of worms.

That's quite a surprising comment. Cheers for the input.

[old slider]

Do our south island lakes freeze up enough for this?

https://www.facebook.com/artur.czaja.1/videos/2001346166560342/

[T.W.R]

Do our south island lakes freeze up enough for this?

https://www.facebook.com/artur.czaja.1/videos/2001346166560342/

Used to :niceone: they used to put cars on Lake Lyndon & Ida quite regularly during the winter and have seen bikes playing around at Siberia the bottom south corner of Lake Tekapo but that's all some bloody skating winter playground nowadays.

[Moi]

Used to :niceone: they used to put cars on Lake Lyndon & Ida quite regularly during the winter and have seen bikes playing around at Siberia the bottom south corner of Lake Tekapo but that's all some bloody skating winter playground nowadays.

The skaters could play "dodge the bike"... Darwin might well approve.

[old slider]

Used to :niceone: they used to put cars on Lake Lyndon & Ida quite regularly during the winter and have seen bikes playing around at Siberia the bottom south corner of Lake Tekapo but that's all some bloody skating winter playground nowadays.


Awesome, I can just imagine the fun to be had on a speedway ice rink.

[Moi]

Awesome, I can just imagine the fun to be had on a speedway ice rink.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjM09a3g80o

[T.W.R]

The skaters could play "dodge the bike"... Darwin might well approve.

The bikes at tekapo used to entertaining enough as it was by themselves :facepalm: an old XR500 is a fucking handful on that shit :innocent:


Awesome, I can just imagine the fun to be had on a speedway ice rink.

I'm sure there's one or two cars at the bottom of Lyndon, they used to tow around people old sofas etc
Ice speedway is crazy shit those spikes do some serious damage....have an old mag some where with articles on it with pics of racers boots ripped to shreds etc :eek:

[old slider]

Thanks Moi and T.W.R those clips on ice racing are great, I agree those tyre spikes would leave a bit of a rash, made me remember the time a young fella was keen to get in the dark house with a dozen extremely excited fallow deer, he finally came out when we opened the door for him after a lot of squeals and yelps looking fairly disheveled and his cloths torn to shreds. lol

[george formby]

Just to chuck some more petrol onto the fire... ;)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HK21-4WZnWM" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just to chuck some more petrol onto the fire... ;)


>

That is so fucking gay.

[Graystone]

It's not rocket science mate.

Roundy bit on right makes roundy bits on bottom go round more fasterer!


Motorcycle dynamics would make a great masters degree topic. It's that complex.

Just precession, physics 101. Applying it to the off road guys doing whips may be final year shit though

[Crasherfromwayback]

Roundy bit on right makes roundy bits on bottom go round more fasterer!


You know it. 101

[AllanB]

That is so fucking gay.


It's weird for sure. There are little scooters with similar set-up running about.

I'm interested in how this is picked up by the MC masses - a conservative bunch under the leather and abnormal front ends have not been well received over the years. Having said that there is no doubt shit loads of potential riders put off after crashing on their first experience who this may appeal to.

Are they able to be raced against two wheeled bikes?

[george formby]

It's weird for sure. There are little scooters with similar set-up running about.

I'm interested in how this is picked up by the MC masses - a conservative bunch under the leather and abnormal front ends have not been well received over the years. Having said that there is no doubt shit loads of potential riders put off after crashing on their first experience who this may appeal to.

Are they able to be raced against two wheeled bikes?

The wee scooters, Piaggios, Yammie Tricity etc are very cool commute scoots. No idea how they "handle". The Niken may well be push me pull me. It is a behemoth.

[Moi]

The wee scooters, Piaggios, Yammie Tricity etc are very cool commute scoots. No idea how they "handle". The Niken may well be push me pull me. It is a behemoth.

I ride both a MP3 and a conventional bike, once underway there is very little that I notice to be different from one to the other - apart from the fact that the MP3 is more surefooted in its front than the bike, especially when the road is wet...

And what's this "wee scooters" bit?

[Cosmik de Bris]

It's not rocket science mate.

Riding using counter steering is not difficult to accomplish, but understanding the dynamics, i.e. the forces involved is not that simple.

Cheers

[Crasherfromwayback]

Riding using counter steering is not difficult to accomplish, but understanding the dynamics, i.e. the forces involved is not that simple.

Cheers

Like a lot of things we just naturally do in life eh.

[old slider]

I ride both a MP3 and a conventional bike, once underway there is very little that I notice to be different from one to the other - apart from the fact that the MP3 is more surefooted in its front than the bike, especially when the road is wet...

And what's this "wee scooters" bit?


I just looked at a few videos, I think they are pretty cool, this winter version looks fun..


https://youtu.be/K033kBr3C6c

[george formby]

Like a lot of things we just naturally do in life eh.

That's the fascinating bit, being able to do it without understanding exactly what "it" is. This thread has given me quite a lot to think about. I ride various dirt bikes and my road bike, got my bases covered.

Pausing to think about how I get those bikes where I want them makes my head swim.

Best not to think too much and keep the throttle as my friend.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Best not to think too much and keep the throttle as my friend.

And remember that bikes generally don't like violent inputs. Gently does it.

[george formby]

And remember that bikes generally don't like violent inputs. Gently does it.

Oh ya. Same goes for the "aaaagh" brake reaction.

[T.W.R]

Dissect these

HART Honda Australia Rider Training......Cornering


https://youtu.be/PLpCWX1VnoQ

Stay Upright......backing It In


https://youtu.be/P4A91t2RQKg

Join The Drive Australia......Tips for Cornering (Actually wonder how many of those that have viewed this knew who they were watching & listening to?)


https://youtu.be/fl9mfnpJ1wo