Engagement With Motorcyclists

[rastuscat]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

[Blackbird]

There are lots of groups, commercial entities and government-supported organisations involved with motorcycle safety. Would you want to engage with motorcyclists through them or is this a personal thing? What's driving your question?

[Scubbo]

I'll engage if you can:

get the AA to feck off,
the councils to acknowledge motorcycles as a valid if not necessary form of transport in cities,
ACC cover tax only applying to single Class6 license rather than per bike

[Mike.Gayner]

I think you're going to have a hard time getting engagement with motorcyclists on this matter. Motorcyclists already feel besieged by unwanted advice and preaching. Everyone who rides a motorcycle already knows, understands and accepts the risks - why do we need a constant brigade of hi-viz-wearing nanny-staters constantly evangelising at us?

To answer your question though, I'd be engaging motorcyclists in person rather than online - bike shops, events, group runs etc.

[jellywrestler]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

market a range of hi viz mongrel mob and hells onions patches, put discount vouchers in the pockets for get togethers that they'll find when they buy them....

[caspernz]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

For me it can be as simple as Googling 'motorcycle safety nz' and seeing what pops up. MSAC, Rideforever and a number of training providers, so if anyone wants to improve their own safety, plenty of choices. If someone doesn't see a need or want to improve their own safety on the road, can't force them. The Bike Show format run by MSAC & Rideforever this summer attracted reasonable numbers, how would one measure engagement from that?
The license regime for new riders has taken a few steps in the right direction, but I suspect it stops short of what you'd consider ideal.
For existing riders, if they don't come along to a Rideforever course? Do we go down a path of offering an ACC discount on the rego for those who've partaken in post license training in past x number of years? Call it a bribe or incentive, it gets the message across. Wouldn't be proper engagement though.
Enforcement could go down the path of instead of a fine, attend remedial training (traffic school?).
A social media campaign showing how properly trained riders can still have fun, without risking life and limb?


There are lots of groups, commercial entities and government-supported organisations involved with motorcycle safety. Would you want to engage with motorcyclists through them or is this a personal thing? What's driving your question?

My suspicion is Pete's new job is behind the question there Geoff. It's a valid one of course, and we'd love to know the answer ourselves...

[Paul in NZ]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

Too funny – we were having almost the exact same conversation yesterday in the car. A visiting relative was asking if we still rode as much as we used to (we don’t) and about the higher than normal rate of fatalities this year. To be honest I don’t know what’s happened but some days it feels as if the joy has been sucked out of motorcycling and it’s been squeezed into a hole by people with a vested interest in making $$. It’s getting to a point where I just don’t care to participate anymore – you are just a means to an end to an industry that couldn’t care less…

Of course your life would be a lot simpler if there was a single sort of motorcyclist but alas we are a series of rigidly structured substrata of styles with very little cross cover. And it appears that while the powers that be predictably hate motorcycles, pretty well all motorcyclists hate other motorcyclists except their immediate friends and occasionally other people at a specific rally.

Sadly – you will need to shape your approach differently to the different tribes and even then you will struggle to connect. I’ve become very wary of anything like this as its always going to cost me money and time and designed to leave me feeling hopelessly inadequate unless I sign up for 10 self-improvement courses today. We all have wallets swelling with loyalty schemes and special offers that offer neither loyalty nor anything special. Whatever you are offering needs to be very good to get any attention these days…

[jasonu]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?


Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

Ask cassina. Apparently she knows fucking everything.

[Scuba_Steve]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

I'd say this place is a good place to start; there's trollop to filter possibly, but as far as a good congregation of bikers this place is somewhat of a powerhouse. Hell it's apparently one of NZ's favorite sites so sayeth the NZ rankings
Other places would be the biker groups like BRONZ etc I suppose followed by maybee harassing people at events (depending on the means/goal)

[tigertim20]

I think you're going to have a hard time getting engagement with motorcyclists on this matter. Motorcyclists already feel besieged by unwanted advice and preaching. Everyone who rides a motorcycle already knows, understands and accepts the risks - why do we need a constant brigade of hi-viz-wearing nanny-staters constantly evangelising at us?

.


I agree with this^
one thing to create a new place for people to come to you - but I don't see any difference between the proselytizing performed by unsolicited door knockers wanting to wank on about a fucking bible, or those wanting to cold call and sell insurance / girl guide cookies / motorcycle safety.
If I didn't ask for it, I don't want it.

Ive got my own thoughts, based on my own research, and own experiences. If I want more education or information, I know where I can go to get information or advanced rider training, but having someone coming at me without invitation is a fast way to get told to fuck off.

[Woodman]

Too funny – we were having almost the exact same conversation yesterday in the car. A visiting relative was asking if we still rode as much as we used to (we don’t) and about the higher than normal rate of fatalities this year. To be honest I don’t know what’s happened but some days it feels as if the joy has been sucked out of motorcycling and it’s been squeezed into a hole by people with a vested interest in making $$. It’s getting to a point where I just don’t care to participate anymore – you are just a means to an end to an industry that couldn’t care less…

Of course your life would be a lot simpler if there was a single sort of motorcyclist but alas we are a series of rigidly structured substrata of styles with very little cross cover. And it appears that while the powers that be predictably hate motorcycles, pretty well all motorcyclists hate other motorcyclists except their immediate friends and occasionally other people at a specific rally.

Sadly – you will need to shape your approach differently to the different tribes and even then you will struggle to connect. I’ve become very wary of anything like this as its always going to cost me money and time and designed to leave me feeling hopelessly inadequate unless I sign up for 10 self-improvement courses today. We all have wallets swelling with loyalty schemes and special offers that offer neither loyalty nor anything special. Whatever you are offering needs to be very good to get any attention these days…


Very intelligent and accurate post.

If you want to engage with "motorcyclists" you need to define what a "motorcyclist" is and where they hang out. For instance you will probarbly find more actual riders at an All Blacks test than a street race, maybe not the hard core, and there won't be many bikes parked outside the stadium, but there will be a lot of riders there. Food for thought.

[rastuscat]

These responses have helped, thanks.

It looks like there are those who can't be reached. But that doesn't mean I won't try.

[Oakie]

Very intelligent and accurate post.

That behaviour is totally inappropriate on KB!

[Oakie]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

You'd need to start in a variety of places because there are so many different subsets of bikers and we don't tend to overlap. Unfortunately I can't suggest one particular group where you'd get most bang for buck ... although I suspect it would be a younger group because us oldies generally think we know it all. (I did my advanced course a few years back and was not at all surprised to find I didn't know it all). I wonder if it would be a good strategy to get beside a group with some profile (eg Ulysees) and get them to push with you. May get less resistance that way.

[Graystone]

With something shiny.

Make a day of it, tag on some safety shit with a dyno day, hillclimb event, spannering evening, poker run, club night, orgy, etc...

Those who are easy to reach by traditional means are often not the ones that need it.

[Murray]

I wonder if it would be a good strategy to get beside a group with some profile (eg Ulysees) and get them to push with you. May get less resistance that way.

Good call, thats where I would be looking

[ellipsis]

...sounds just like starting a new class of bike or formula in our club racing calendars...then trying to interest other clubs...then MNZ...then Members, and then wonder why, a couple of seasons down the track why anyone would bother trying to get a consensus in our silly little country...pushing shit uphill with a pointy stick...:mellow:

[slofox]

You could maybe start with those new to riding a motor bike. (Not yet as bigoted as the rest of us). Maybe ask sellers of bikes to help recruit. Longer term but it just might work...:sherlock:

If you learn good skills first they'll stick.

[rastuscat]

I thought that was what you did in your old job as a riding school instructor. Do you miss the job and would like to be doing it again or even going back to being a bike cop again?

I'm just looking at a new opportunity, and how to leverage it to prevent road deaths.

The motorcycle road death numbers are a problem, but are also an opportunity.

[Voltaire]

With something shiny.

Make a day of it, tag on some safety shit with a dyno day, hillclimb event, spannering evening, poker run, club night, orgy, etc...

Those who are easy to reach by traditional means are often not the ones that need it.

mmmmmmmm:drool::drool::drool::drool: spannering evening.

[caspernz]

These responses have helped, thanks.

It looks like there are those who can't be reached. But that doesn't mean I won't try.

A small incentive may be enough to bring a good number of the "I do not need to do anything about my riding skills" set over for a closer look.

I was heartened when I heard Ulysses want their mentors to be at least of IAM Advanced Test standard, so the tide is slowly turning :cool:

[AllanB]

1. Bikini bike wash (not you in the bikini)

2. If you are starting local, if you park up at the cafe at Little River on a nice Saturday or Sunday you'll find a lot of motorcyclists to chat to.

3. Sat morning at alternative bike shops. Presuming the bike shops are on board, I'd assume so as they don't really want their customers dying.


As a group I find we like incentives - discounts and the likes - why not try to get a tyre company or something on board offering rebates or something on new tyres if they do a course or whatever you are planning.

[jellywrestler]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

how about starting with the delivery company in wellington that has what looks like oven trays lashed to the back of their bikes, and a box on top, a lot of the riders have the same skill set as their bike set up to, cringeworthy to say the least...,

i think the subject is easily sold, to those that want to hear, i think there's quite a bit been done already through all these places mentioned too, dunno whether you can dig deeper or not.
how many are you targeting? where, are you trying to preach to an individual or club?
wandering the streets and talking to riders at their bikes is one way, pretty easy to call them out on a shortcoming like putting their helmet over a gas cap, something that they don't know about and engage them that way i've found...

[russd7]

, pretty well all motorcyclists hate other motorcyclists except their immediate friends and occasionally other people at a specific rally.
Is that really your experience, if so it really is a shame because it certainly is not mine as a general rule.
my experience generally has been quite the opposite, i find that if im sitting having a coffee or beer and im in my riding gear people quite often come up and say hi, and these people are nearly always motorcyclists or have ridden in the past, and if im out and about tripping around and i say gidday to another motorcyclist they generally are quite keen to have a yarn and that doesn't matter what they ride or how they look, even the dredded patched ones are quite happy to have a yarn and a laugh.
people are people and its surprising how many are willing to stop and have a quick chat if ya look em in the eye and say "hows it goin".

[T.W.R]

A proper travelling roadshow (similar to safedrive in the UK) targeting events like those that have been mentioned as well as rallies etc and high schools also.
Publicity, marketing and the costs involved and the crippler though...look how short lived the TV ad campaign was for the Ride Forever push :facepalm:

One of the TV channels is currently searching ideas for a new program, contemplate a something encompassing all aspects of motorcycling in NZ something weekly travelling the country showing events, some of the great rides, shop visits, collectors etc, a highlight of key parts of what the roadshow presents to attendees, a calendar of up coming events & the such like.

[GazzaH]

Sounds interesting.

But what about social media? YouToob biking vids filmed in NZ could be a big hit, not just here.

[caspernz]

Too funny – we were having almost the exact same conversation yesterday in the car. A visiting relative was asking if we still rode as much as we used to (we don’t) and about the higher than normal rate of fatalities this year. To be honest I don’t know what’s happened but some days it feels as if the joy has been sucked out of motorcycling and it’s been squeezed into a hole by people with a vested interest in making $$. It’s getting to a point where I just don’t care to participate anymore – you are just a means to an end to an industry that couldn’t care less…

Of course your life would be a lot simpler if there was a single sort of motorcyclist but alas we are a series of rigidly structured substrata of styles with very little cross cover. And it appears that while the powers that be predictably hate motorcycles, pretty well all motorcyclists hate other motorcyclists except their immediate friends and occasionally other people at a specific rally.

Sadly – you will need to shape your approach differently to the different tribes and even then you will struggle to connect. I’ve become very wary of anything like this as its always going to cost me money and time and designed to leave me feeling hopelessly inadequate unless I sign up for 10 self-improvement courses today. We all have wallets swelling with loyalty schemes and special offers that offer neither loyalty nor anything special. Whatever you are offering needs to be very good to get any attention these days…

Wow Paul, can't agree with you, pleased to see I wasn't the only one...


Is that really your experience, if so it really is a shame because it certainly is not mine as a general rule.
my experience generally has been quite the opposite, i find that if im sitting having a coffee or beer and im in my riding gear people quite often come up and say hi, and these people are nearly always motorcyclists or have ridden in the past, and if im out and about tripping around and i say gidday to another motorcyclist they generally are quite keen to have a yarn and that doesn't matter what they ride or how they look, even the dredded patched ones are quite happy to have a yarn and a laugh.
people are people and its surprising how many are willing to stop and have a quick chat if ya look em in the eye and say "hows it goin".

Yeah I reckon riders are riders, face to face most of em are easy enough to chat to, whether they be wearing a Police uniform right thru to a gang patch. Bit hard to convince any significant number to look at changing their ways, in one on one scenarios. Not all of em want to even look at changing anyway, and that's gotta be respected. But can we draw in a number of the guys n gals who ride, by putting together some sort of social media snippet showing that riding safely need not be boring? As for Youtube stuff, yes all for that, but not of the bike mounted GoPro variety please...that sends most folks to sleep. We'd have to venture to drone type footage showing riding lines etc. Maybe even some track time, heck even some of us so-called boring IAM farts venture onto the track :cool:

[eldog]

Enter Nigel Latta?

needs something/someone who can connect with target groups

something like one with Mick Doohan in Australia? (NZds National Park)

not just safety but all all aspects of motorcycling

a panel of guests? Taking about stuff, places to go, how to get involved.

people off KB for real kiwi feeling.

it would be like herding cats

[Oakie]

3. Sat morning at alternative bike shops. Presuming the bike shops are on board, I'd assume so as they don't really want their customers dying.

I guess if all the bike shops were on board to the point that whenever anyone bought anything they were handed a flyer promoting whatever it is you want to do, that could at least get the message in front of a lot of people. I mean the one thing we probably all do is go to bike shops (not necessarily just dealers tho). As stated, the incentive for the dealers is to keep the punters around to spend more money with them.

I wonder how much chance there would be of getting one person in each shop as a sort of 'Safety Ambassador'. It sounds a bit of a wanky title but it might be effective to have a person in each place to push the safety message more than in just the run of the mill ways ... including liaising with you and even working together. I'd love to stay and expand on this but Mrs Oakie wants me to do something.

[Paul in NZ]

These responses have helped, thanks.

It looks like there are those who can't be reached. But that doesn't mean I won't try.

OK serious advice...

I am an engineer BUT I have spent time in marketing and sales.

You need a marketing / sales strategy / plan. It does not need to be flash and its got to be flexible enough to resonate with the disparate groups / tribes that make up motorcycling. I.e. the food delivery companies using little bikes / scooters will definitely be interested as a way of meeting their obligations under H&S but will require urban focuses that say adventure riders might find less applicable. Cruiser riders need a different set of tools to say sports bike riders. Yes the techniques will be similar but the delivery should change to resonate with a group. Your plan will include key events that you attend and a list of companies ets to call. You have to really work at this. You seem like a good guy but that's not enough, you have to actively sell and stick to your plan. You MUST make X number of calls a day...

If it was me – reaching individuals is too much for a one man band so you need to go to where motorcyclists are in large numbers. Find out where all the rallies and race meetings are and set up shop. You will need a decent website and banners / marquee for these events. People will look for you on google via their mobiles so a good mobile friendly site is essential. You need to try to get maximum impact for less effort so going to where motorcyclists are in numbers rather than a one on one approach.

Once you have a customer you will need to focus on a good customer database that allows you to sell additional services to existing customers. If you have done a good job with a previous customer that’s easier than getting new people across the threshold. Emails best for this as mail out cost a lot.

You can try (say) approaching importers or large resellers and see if they would be interested in providing a free to the purchaser session (they pay you) as an extra when selling a new bike etc. the old ‘are you getting the most out of your new bike?’ deal. Pillion riding tips??? Guest experts to run courses on off road riding etc..

[Akzle]

.

it would be like herding cats

... easier once you put an ounce of #4 shot in them?

[Akzle]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2BT7_owW2sU

[Jeff Sichoe]

I'll engage if you can:

get the AA to feck off,
the councils to acknowledge motorcycles as a valid if not necessary form of transport in cities,
ACC cover tax only applying to single Class6 license rather than per bike

I fully agree with the last two points but what has AA done wrong?

[Banditbandit]

Some of us rider because it is not safe. Any attempt to make it safer faces resistance from us.

[Madness]

...followed by maybee harassing people at events...

Get Hugh Anderson to do it, he's really really good at it.

[rastuscat]

I'm keeping schtum for the moment but I'm not setting up as a school. Or a shop.

I'm loyal as hell to the school I worked with.

Just chucking ideas around at the moment. I'll add some context depending on how things pan out.

[Voltaire]

Offering a free lesson to buyers is an excellent idea as I bought my first bike from a dealer who offered a free lesson which was just a ride in first gear down a side street from the shop as I had no license. That shop sold more bikes than any other shop in ChCh maybe due to the free lessons offered. This was back in the late 70s. I still think Rastus must miss his old job and maybe setting up his own riding school could be the way to go but it would have to offer a point of difference.

That explains a lot, you should have got "lessons" 2,3,4 and 5. :lol:

[jellywrestler]

I'm keeping schtum for the moment but I'm not setting up as a school. Or a shop.

I'm loyal as hell to the school I worked with.

Just chucking ideas around at the moment. I'll add some context depending on how things pan out.

what about offereing to put a go pro on riders bikes, then tell them whether they're going to live or die....

[Banditbandit]

Back in those days there were no riding schools around at least no advertised ones like there is today. So we had to teach ourselves.

That may well be true - it is certainly when I learnt to ride.

But that is no excuse for not going to a riding school NOW!. I've learnt how to truly ride a bike at riding school in the earlish 1980s - about 10 years after I bought my first bike and at least eight years after I got a licence.



what about offereing to put a go pro on riders bikes, then tell them whether they're going to live or die....

For me - no point - they will always tell me I'm going to die ...

[Scubbo]

I fully agree with the last two points but what has AA done wrong?

this https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/88287604/aa-calls-for-speed-camera-changes-to-stop-motorcyclists-having-free-ride

and others which i'm to lazy to dredge up, its an old boys car club, the guys who spend more time polishing their morris marinas than driving --- and curse and try drive into you if you attempt to lane split past them... :girlfight:

NOT advocates for motorcycling even when they pretend to be

[jellywrestler]

Back in those days there were no riding schools around at least no advertised ones like there is today. So we had to teach ourselves..

fuck off, there was always someone keen to help ya, like learning how to root, there was no school for that either, just practicing stinky finger behind the bike sheds

[Paul in NZ]

what about offereing to put a go pro on riders bikes, then tell them whether they're going to live or die....

Whenever anyone points a gopro in my direction on the mountain bike its 100% sure I'm about to fall on my face...

[Scuba_Steve]

I'm keeping schtum for the moment but I'm not setting up as a school. Or a shop.

I'm loyal as hell to the school I worked with.

Just chucking ideas around at the moment. I'll add some context depending on how things pan out.

are you loose lipped enough to define context? i.e. are we talking teaching, discussing, lecturing for this "engagement"

[Akzle]

So what is "truly" riding a bike? No even the riding school die hards on here say about their riding school experience teaching them to truly ride a bike.

just to hazard a guess, it probably involves going around corners without having to get off and push.

[cheshirecat]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

Need several things.

FB page - still one of the best ways of social communicating
Website - go for one of the free ones - Wix (https://www.wix.com/).
Don't bother getting a domain etc, just use as is - it's free if you don't mind ads but then you'll get MC ads which is no bad thing.
Website will be is a resource repository and main contact point. You'll want imagery but plenty bikers will provide stuff.
Sticky here.
Twitter. Pain a butt for some but very effective for immediate goss and news. Quite a wide reach in influential circles
Engage with non NZ rags some in the UK have excellent resources and battle-hardened



Good luck

[russd7]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/185461-Taupo-LAMS-Only-Track-Day

attending this kinda thing is a good place to start

[Berries]

I'm just looking at a new opportunity, and how to leverage it to prevent road deaths.

The motorcycle road death numbers are a problem, but are also an opportunity.
Are they really a problem though?

45 fatal crashes last year involving bikes – seven in Canterbury. Whilst any number is too many™ someone has to inject a bit of realism here.

Since 2010 the annual average has been 46 and the 45 last year was significantly less than the previous two years. Compare that to the annual average in the 1980’s of 126 and 69 in the 1990’s. Many many reasons for that but I do wonder how much of a problem we are and I see stuff like this and think that perhaps you have become too focused on this topic simply because of previous work.

Vision Zero is undoubtedly an admirable vision and gives warm and cuddly feelings but it will never happen while humans retain some degree of self-controlled mobility. There is IMO a critical level that we have to reluctantly accept for death on the roads. Accept is not the right word but I cannot come up with anything better.

I personally think that in the last few years for whatever reason the road toll has dipped below that level and now we are floating back up to it giving TPTB the perceived justification to introduce further restrictions. In the end these will be shown not to work because our roading infrastructure is so unfriendly if you leave the road and this cannot realistically be fixed unless you live in the land of unicorns. I see in the last hour that a car has twatted a power pole on the road to Lawrence. Once we underground all the power lines perhaps we can make a start on farmers fences, plenty of lives have been snuffed out by a strainer post.

Given the lack of protection that a bike gives you and the limited protection that even ATGATT gives you combined with the fact a bike has two wheels there will always be crashes and people will always die. No point even discussing that particular fact if you ask me.

If I die while riding it will be due to me fucking up or someone else fucking up and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time with my mind on other matters. I ‘think’ I know how to ride safely and keep myself out of harms way so would not be interested in any of this third party interaction to save me. If I mess up it will be because I have ignored or disregarded my inner safety voice due to red mist, or simply because I am having fun which, in the end, is the reason I ride a motorbike.

So anyway, not sure you will make a difference if your aim is to reduce the number of riders being killed on the road because the numbers are so small and reasons so varied. Good luck.



Interesting footnote. I know some people on here don't like the S word but in Canterbury ten times as many people top themselves than die in motorbike crashes. Old Press article. (https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/85452513/canterbury-records-most-suicides-in-new-zealand) Makes me wonder about national priorities.

[rastuscat]

Vision Zero is an aspirational goal. Not a real world reality.

And it's a good start to strategies to address the deaths.

That things could be worse is a poor motivator.

[Honest Andy]

Interesting footnote. I know some people on here don't like the S word but in Canterbury ten times as many people top themselves than die in motorbike crashes.

Now that's sobering.

[Honest Andy]

I'm thinking of the pamphlet for riding courses that comes in the envelope with the rego every year. Most of us at least look at that. So if what you're selling/promoting is of similar worth then I reckon that'd be the place to start.

[Scubbo]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/BP-Brown/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Berries https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/BP-Brown/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1131096519#post1131096519)
Interesting footnote. I know some people on here don't like the S word but in Canterbury ten times as many people top themselves than die in motorbike crashes.



Now that's sobering.


yeah but suicide is not fun, so they won't tax it or try reduce it. thats the govt way.. now if you could make it fun then they'd try stop it

(before you get your panties in a twist, my wife supports mental health services for multiple organizations in auckland--)

[jellywrestler]

A There is IMO a critical level that we have to reluctantly accept for death on the roads. Accept is not the right word but I cannot come up with anything better.

.accept is the right word, we have allow alcohol, guns, cigarettes and other things that all claim lives, it's the price we have to pay for these luxuries and the government accepts this otherwise they would all be banned.

[jellywrestler]

I'm thinking of the pamphlet for riding courses that comes in the envelope with the rego every year. Most of us at least look at that. So if what you're selling/promoting is of similar worth then I reckon that'd be the place to start.

wow, you should get a job in marketing, actually you may already have, as there's been a pamphlet with my rego several times recently, or was it a leaflet?
does any one know the difference between the two?

[vonstringer]

A positive message usually helps. "Learn to ride well and have more fun while getting the most out of your bike", sounds better than, "ride well or you will die."

[Blackbird]

The replies on this post are a good guide to just how difficult it is to engage with riders as a whole because of different attitudes to riding, how we perceive risk and whether we’re motivated to do anything about it.

My motivations to lift my game were purely personal. Reaching my early 60’s, I owned a Honda Blackbird and not to put too fine a point on it, ran out of talent at a fraction of the bike’s performance. A few close calls gave a good pointer to the fact that it might be me at fault. My motivator was wanting to carry on riding safely for as long as I could because bikes have always been an important part of my life. There was no Ride Forever programme at that stage but a one day course with a commercial provider confirmed that I was nowhere as good as I originally thought I was. That’s the heart of the matter – until there’s an independent check of our riding habits, it’s bloody hard to self-critique in a meaningful way.

I subsequently joined IAM and for me, it was the best move I’ve ever made - still riding and loving it at 70. I’m by no means evangelising it but it was ideal for my circumstances. Great people with no egos and a lot of fun. Not suitable for everyone but it worked for me and that’s all that matters. All down to personal choice and that’s what makes it so hard to engage with everyone. And the price we pay for our accident rate is higher costs and increasingly draconian legislation.

On a more chilled note, I rode to Hamilton yesterday to get the bike serviced and new tyres fitted (Road 5’s). Great service by Boyd’s as usual and the trip back to Coromandel was magic with the Firth an absolute picture with flat water and hazy sun and bugger-all traffic. Arrived home right on sunset totally relaxed and couldn't stop smiling – so good for the soul. This is why we ride!

[rambaldi]

Vision Zero is undoubtedly an admirable vision and gives warm and cuddly feelings but it will never happen while humans retain some degree of self-controlled mobility. There is IMO a critical level that we have to reluctantly accept for death on the roads. Accept is not the right word but I cannot come up with anything better.

I personally think that in the last few years for whatever reason the road toll has dipped below that level and now we are floating back up to it giving TPTB the perceived justification to introduce further restrictions. In the end these will be shown not to work because our roading infrastructure is so unfriendly if you leave the road and this cannot realistically be fixed unless you live in the land of unicorns. I see in the last hour that a car has twatted a power pole on the road to Lawrence. Once we underground all the power lines perhaps we can make a start on farmers fences, plenty of lives have been snuffed out by a strainer post.


People misunderstand what vision zero is actually about. They get caught up in the motivation (no one should die on the roads) and think that is unachievable so ignore the whole thing. What it is actually about is what you talk about in the following point. It is an acknowledgement that people aren't going to be perfect automatons on the road, so what can you do to lessen the chance that someone dies when things go wrong. In places it is reducing speeds (think 30 km/h on the tiny dead end streets where you would have kids playing) in places it is reshaping roads (ditching ditches and dealing with water run-off as people do overseas. In others it is moving the lights/pylons back or underground (as you suggested). Yeah some of the changes are probably gonna be shit (I can see the speed limit going down for some rural roads, although were you really following them anyway?) but the motivation is understandable and hopefully some of the changes will be good for us as well (wire barriers, armco that goes all the way to the bottom of the barrier)

[F5 Dave]

. . . .
performed by unsolicited door knockers wanting to wank on a fucking bible, . .

. . . .

What's a Fucking Bible? Last one I saw didn't have any pictures, not with that sort of action at any rate. Maybe they've tried to Sex them up a bit. Ooh Vicar, I'm getting a stiffy :devil2:

[Ulsterkiwi]

if you want to engage, you want to sell something, lets call it a brand for the sake of argument. Its not a silver bullet but a brand ambassador that people like or would like to be around or want to listen to can often help. Look at what John Kirwan did for the discussion around depression and mental health. Your man King is doing a pretty good job as well. On a purely commercial basis Ritchie is bringing a more attractive side to Fonterra and having his masculinity left in tatters by the missus (apparently) is good for whatever pills that ad is pushing.
I know of others who tried to latch on to the idea and they got "celebrities" as their ambassadors, to be ruthless they were often C listers past their use by date or folks who might have pissed off Joe Public more than anything. Not helpful.

I am sure you are a wonderful human being Rastus but are you beautiful, funny, talented or otherwise loved by the good folk of GodZone? If not find yourself a motorcycling John Kirwan or better still a Rachel Hunter.

[Swoop]

I fully agree with the last two points but what has AA done wrong?

The "Automobile" Arseholes pretend to represent ALL road users, yet do no such thing.
They are more than willing to throw motorcyclists under the wheels as a sacrifice to further their own agendas. Be very wary of anything they propose...

[Akzle]

The goverment's acceptance of accidental deaths could be due to having to pay one less pension for each person who dies before reaching pension age.

fucken, would ya already?

[Akzle]

People misunderstand what vision zero is actually about. They get caught up in the motivation (no one should die on the roads) and think that is unachievable so ignore the whole thing. What it is actually about is what you talk about in the following point. It is an acknowledgement that people aren't going to be perfect automatons on the road, so what can you do to lessen the chance that someone dies when things go wrong. In places it is reducing speeds (think 30 km/h on the tiny dead end streets where you would have kids playing) in places it is reshaping roads (ditching ditches and dealing with water run-off as people do overseas. In others it is moving the lights/pylons back or underground (as you suggested). Yeah some of the changes are probably gonna be shit (I can see the speed limit going down for some rural roads, although were you really following them anyway?) but the motivation is understandable and hopefully some of the changes will be good for us as well (wire barriers, armco that goes all the way to the bottom of the barrier)

while i disagree th what you say, i will defend your right say it.

but i think all you fucken do-gooders should myofb. mind your life, not anyone elses.

fuckups should at the very least hurt, if not be fatal.

[HEsch]

while i disagree th what you say, i will defend your right say it.

but i think all you fucken do-gooders should myofb. mind your life, not anyone elses.

fuckups should at the very least hurt, if not be fatal.

NZTA's idea that "no one should die due to a mistake" is a valid one. I agree that people need to 'feel' mistakes though, in order to learn from them. Equally, there are people out there who don't give a f about what or how they do things (but, I wouldn't class those actions as mistakes - only the people).

The solutions need a fucktonne more money thrown at them though - the quality of roads, surface, repairs, drainage, etc, is just not sufficient.

[Akzle]

NZTA's idea that "no one should die due to a mistake" is a valid one. I agree that people need to 'feel' mistakes though, in order to learn from them. Equally, there are people out there who don't give a f about what or how they do things (but, I wouldn't class those actions as mistakes - only the people).

The solutions need a fucktonne more money thrown at them though - the quality of roads, surface, repairs, drainage, etc, is just not sufficient.

money money, baaawwww bawwww.

we all know what the roads and driver's are like. it's not something we have control of on a personal level. act accordingly.

[Banditbandit]

So what is "truly" riding a bike? No even the riding school die hards on here say about their riding school experience teaching them to truly ride a bike.

Nitpicking pedant ...

PS you're a fuckwit

[Voltaire]

The "Automobile" Arseholes pretend to represent ALL road users, yet do no such thing.
They are more than willing to throw motorcyclists under the wheels as a sacrifice to further their own agendas. Be very wary of anything they propose...

Seemed OK when they transported my bike from Timaru to Auckland and put me up in a motel for the night.

Also get a discount on my WOF and items I buy at Countdown, not to mention free maps.:msn-wink:

[F5 Dave]

Is that something to do with fuel injection?

[eldog]

Seemed OK when they transported my bike from Timaru to Auckland and put me up in a motel for the night.

Also get a discount on my WOF and items I buy at Countdown, not to mention free maps.:msn-wink:

+1 but need AA Plus.

maybe not their attitude to motorcycles

[Ulsterkiwi]

I think part of the problem is not that money isn't being spent on the roads but there is no real accountability for HOW the money is spent on the roads. Councils and the NZTA in particular seems to be toothless when it comes to any kind of audit or quality control process that keeps the contractors honest.
I will cite examples local to me because I witnessed first hand the impact.

Kapiti expressway. Gazillions of dollars. Excellent road, really makes a difference to transit times. Opened in February last year. Within 8 months I think it was (maybe less) it needed resurfaced, WTAF?????

Local roads in Kapiti, bitumen and chip "repair" done to a series of major local roads. Done before a cold snap, bitumen doesn't grip chip, they now have gravel roads with lashings and lashings of bitumen over peoples cars, garage floors etc etc, ie not on the road. In the wheel tracks which form you can see the original road surface. Ever heard of a weather forecast?

Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Keep feeding the monkeys, they keep coming back, monkeys are not stupid. Stop feeding the monkeys.

There is another idea Rastus, what are the motorcyclists interested in? Find out about their agenda first, say for example road construction which pays little or no attention to their safety, then you might be able to have a conversation about your agenda, say, how they can control their end and push for change from others. (Probably not ranting about it on the interwebs)

[nerrrd]

I think part of the problem is not that money isn't being spent on the roads but there is no real accountability for HOW the money is spent on the roads. Councils and the NZTA in particular seems to be toothless when it comes to any kind of audit or quality control process that keeps the contractors honest.

This times infinity. Seems like this whole ‘contracting’ malarkey has just become a way of all the involved parties absolving themselves from any responsibility for the result. God forbid anyone should want to do a good job just for the sake of doing a good job. Latest ‘road fixing’ example I encounter on a regular basis is sticky stuff poured on what always seemed like perfectly good asphalt covered in pea gravel, sweep it a couple of times and then paint the road marking on top of the (still) loose stones. Mind boggling.

As far as engaging motorcyclists go, I’ll do stuff for money. The ride forever courses make me feel like I’m getting something back from the ACC levy, actual discounts would be even more appealing. Throw in some interesting motorcycling ‘celebrities’ (Martin, Boorman, some Superbike, TT, MotoGP or Dakar riders or locally even a Morgan, Goff, Crosby etc) as the gentleman above mentioned for publicity and I’d be engaged. But I like to link I already am safety-wise so maybe not your target market.

[jellywrestler]

Seemed OK when they transported my bike from Timaru to Auckland and put me up in a motel for the night.

Also get a discount on my WOF and items I buy at Countdown, not to mention free maps.:msn-wink:

that's one of their products that you purchased.

the AA don't actively support motorcyclists themselves and their rights etc, they're a bunch of twats

[eldog]

that's one of their products that you purchased.

the AA don't actively support motorcyclists themselves and their rights etc, they're a bunch of twats

Its a good product and if you need to use it.... :first:

Agree the AA don't support other forms of transport, as they are biased


but a bunch of twats would be useful, just like the term fuckwit. What is it with the English language....:corn:

[eldog]

This times infinity. Seems like this whole ‘contracting’ malarkey has just become a way of all the involved parties absolving themselves from any responsibility for the result. God forbid anyone should want to do a good job just for the sake of doing a good job. Latest ‘road fixing’ example I encounter on a regular basis is sticky stuff poured on what always seemed like perfectly good asphalt covered in pea gravel, sweep it a couple of times and then paint the road marking on top of the (still) loose stones. Mind boggling.

As far as engaging motorcyclists go, I’ll do stuff for money. The ride forever courses make me feel like I’m getting something back from the ACC levy, actual discounts would be even more appealing. Throw in some interesting motorcycling ‘celebrities’ (Martin, Boorman, some Superbike, TT, MotoGP or Dakar riders or locally even a Morgan, Goff, Crosby etc) as the gentleman above mentioned for publicity and I’d be engaged. But I like to link I already am safety-wise so maybe not your target market.


true lots of shoddy workmanship on our roads - trying to save a buck-usually costs long term.
Cheap arse work which lasts the minimum amount of time before it needs to get replace during the next period of the contract(the next contractors problem)
It should be that there is a group check inspect and check whats being done during the job and after, with multiple site visits and a guaranteed performance (time and condition)

What that generally means is that contractors will hike the price up probably to the true value of the job and they will miss out. Then the cheapest will win contract and quite often these contractors will suddenly disappear later
Maybe a performance bond is required.

however there is a lot of time wastage with what I think is unnecessary movement of material*and H&S.

* - there has been an earthquake, a land slip part of into the sea, whats wrong with dumping more into the sea that lies across the road, its natural isn't it?

Last Sunday I rode over an area, that was 'looked after' by one of the big roading contracting companies, who used to leave large amounts of loose chip all over the road (chipseal)

I noticed a marked improvement in the quality and amount of 'proper' repairs done.
I also noticed a change from just chipsealing the whole lane to just a metre of so of the tyre tracks (2 lots of repairs in one lane) between the tyre tracks nothing and the joint heights where pretty even
So a change has happened.

The other earlier repairs are now starting to fall apart.


BTW

You already have my attention about this as I am reading and replying to this thread.

[nerrrd]

true lots of shoddy workmanship on our roads - trying to save a buck-usually costs long term.
Cheap arse work which lasts the minimum amount of time before it needs to get replace during the next period of the contract(the next contractors problem)
It should be that there is a group check inspect and check whats being done during the job and after, with multiple site visits and a guaranteed performance (time and condition)

What that generally means is that contractors will hike the price up probably to the true value of the job and they will miss out. Then the cheapest will win contract and quite often these contractors will suddenly disappear later
Maybe a performance bond is required.

I ain't no expert...but maybe if they KNEW they couldn't get away with doing a shitty job (proper inspections? contracts suspended/revoked at the first sign of shittiness?) then they'd ALL be forced to make a realistic bid at the outset. The opposite seems to be the case at the moment (i.e. they know they can get away with it for long enough to make it worth their while).

But from what you say it sounds as though some are bucking the trend which is good to hear.

[AllanB]

Good luck with this broke government doing F-all to road quality.

You know you would think the electric small motorcycle would be a huge thing about now - ride to work, plug in, ride home, avoid the car jams etc.

[rastuscat]

So, our roads are rubbish.

We can wait maybe a generation or two, they will likely improve. Lots of us will suffer in that couple of generations, but hey, its great to have someone else to blame.

Another option is for us to ride as if the roads are rubbish.

Don't follow so close, scan properly further ahead, and maybe lets not travel at Nurburgring speeds. In summary, lets ride like the roads are rubbish.

Nah. It won't catch on.

[Woodman]

The roads in Nuzillad are fine. Stop blaming the fucken roads.

[GazzaH]

Here in Napier/Hastings area, the roads are OK. We have our fair share of poth-oles, cows-hit, manh-ole covers, slippy lines and so on but generally OK.

The areas around major roadworks can be challenging, especially in the wet, but the bloody great warning signs (lots of them), flashing yellows, diggedy-diggers and cones for Africa, are a teensy weensy clue that 'something is going on'.

By far the biggest hazards, though, are fuckwit cagers, juggernoughts, livestock, traaaactors, farm bikes and other unpredictables.

I've yet to see a mobile pothole that signals left and turns right. Or pulls out from a side-turning as I'm approaching. Or overtakes me on a blind bend.
Or does a u-ey, dropping its load of ladders across the road.

Admittedly I've seen potholes grow, spreading marbles. And I've seen potholes "repaired" with fucknosewhat, teflon'd then greased for good measure.

When I'm riding an unfamiliar bit of road, I'm extra vigilant for dodgy road surfaces, adverse camber, hidden junctions and all that stuff. On familiar haunts, I prepare for and avoid the hazards I know about, of course ... and watch like a hawk for new ones, including the ones I missed last time through - like "new" road signs (that have been there since the Dark Ages) and farm gates mysteriously installed in the past week (no, decades past). It's fun to catch myself out. If I don't spot some new static hazard on a regular trip, I know I wasn't paying enough attention. And if I miss a mobile hazard, I know it may be my final mistake.

[kiwi cowboy]

...sounds just like starting a new class of bike or formula in our club racing calendars...then trying to interest other clubs...then MNZ...then Members, and then wonder why, a couple of seasons down the track why anyone would bother trying to get a consensus in our silly little country...pushing shit uphill with a pointy stick...:mellow:

Well your a ray of fucking sunshine and positivity today aren't ya:laugh::laugh:.

Did a ride fore ever couple of years ago and got a discount off my insurance that year and would lik eto do a refresher course again especially if something like a discount on ACC was on offer in the package.
Might attract a bigger attendance.

[eldog]

The roads in Nuzillad are fine. Stop blaming the fucken roads.

They might be in your backyard.

most country and rural areas I have passed thru have great roads IMO.

the south is I remember as particularly well sorted.

yes parts of the roads are inconsistent as is the ‘repairs done’

we should expect a good standard of work, not put up with shit.

same with drivers of vehicles.....

people seem to be the main cause of all of rastas problems, getting them to change will be a long slow process. if change can happen at all.

riding like people and roads are rubbish is generally how I ride, but I am not the majority. I am out to enjoy what biking allows me to do (it’s the closest thing to flying without wings). You could say for some it has caught on.



there is no magic bullet, but you will have to make it reasonably wide ranging to appeal and varied to keep attention. Pop up in all sorts of unexpected places, get the ACC to sponsor some hard hitting advertisements, no PC crap. Get real people from all walks of life, even the 1%ers will speak I am sure, if they have lost a mate etc. let’s not make it a them vs us scenario.

[caspernz]

So, our roads are rubbish.

We can wait maybe a generation or two, they will likely improve. Lots of us will suffer in that couple of generations, but hey, its great to have someone else to blame.

Another option is for us to ride as if the roads are rubbish.

Don't follow so close, scan properly further ahead, and maybe lets not travel at Nurburgring speeds. In summary, lets ride like the roads are rubbish.

Nah. It won't catch on.


The roads in Nuzillad are fine. Stop blaming the fucken roads.

The roads in NZ are not bad overall. Certainly can't blame the roads for most accidents. Always amuses me when our crew can travel back and forth 24/7 in all weather without incident to popular destinations, yet one wet weekend and multiple cars/bikes arse up as the weekend warriors fail to observe the basics. But yeah, like RC commented already, it's the fault of the road if someone follows too close, fails to look more than 3 seconds ahead and drives/rides way too fast for prevailing conditions...:brick::brick::brick:

[Daffyd]

Once we underground all the power lines perhaps we can make a start on farmers fences, plenty of lives have been snuffed out by a strainer post.

Interesting footnote. I know some people on here don't like the S word but in Canterbury ten times as many people top themselves than die in motorbike crashes. Old Press article. (https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/85452513/canterbury-records-most-suicides-in-new-zealand) Makes me wonder about national priorities.

Mmmm Underground fences. I can see that working. :clap:

[Daffyd]

The roads in Nuzillad are fine. Stop blaming the fucken roads.

Absolutely! Try coming to the Philippines, (or India, or any other Asian country) and you will find bad roads.

[AllanB]

Even the earthquake damaged roads in ChCh are quite manageable providing you own a bike/4wd that can handle them.

You really are a fuckwit.

[ellipsis]

You really are a fuckwit.


...I'd never have noticed, had you not brought it up...:sick:

[caspernz]

You really are a fuckwit.


...I'd never have noticed, had you not brought it up...:sick:

Now that you mention it, there's a certain whiff...:laugh::confused:

[caseye]

Now that you mention it, there's a certain whiff...:laugh::confused:

Whif, Fuck me it's a STENCH, fuckwit is the nicest way of describing IT!

[rastuscat]

Getting back on track for a moment.

I think there would need to be a broad range of strategies, given the wide demographic within motorcycling.

[Blackbird]

Getting back on track for a moment.

I think there would need to be a broad range of strategies, given the wide demographic within motorcycling.

Yep! Which is basically what we have now, catering for different needs. So where are the current options falling short and what can we do differently? Appealing to the pocket is always a good one but may never be accepted at government level for any number of reasons. I've had a discount from my insurers for IAM qualifications and lack of accidents, but what about a discount for my road licence? Unacceptable, I suspect. <_<

[Moi]

Yep! Which is basically what we have now, catering for different needs. So where are the current options falling short and what can we do differently? Appealing to the pocket is always a good one but may never be accepted at government level for any number of reasons. I've had a discount from my insurers for IAM qualifications and lack of accidents, but what about a discount for my road licence? Unacceptable, I suspect. <_<

I like your thinking Blackbird... let's say if you've completed an advanced riding qualification [what that means is a totally other kettle of fish...] you can have 50% off, yes! 50% off your licence fee... Considering that the licence fee for a big bike, read over 600cc, is $24.50 then half of that is $12.25... worth it? Probably not...

Am I being cynical? Yes, I am. Considering that the ACC levy for the same bike is nearly 16 times the licence fee it would be nice to have something off that for improving your riding - difficulty in defining "improving your riding". But, the issue I see with that is that it could easily be seen as a form of rebate similar to the "no claims bonus" you get with insurance and then does that start to make the ACC scheme look more like an insurance and with that the other "conditions" that insurances carry - such as "it looks like an insurance so why not sell it off to an insurance company to run"...

What is the answer? Sorry, I have not got an answer for you. Though I do believe we are going in the right direction with RideForever and other rider up-skilling programmes. However, as has been said before on this thread, those programmes are the water to which you lead the horse, but will the horse drink? Would a level of compulsion work? Possibly for some but there would also be those who would argue that you don't have the right to tell me what to do. Perhaps it's a case of "if you want to play in our playground [the public highway] then you have to abide by the rules of the playground". Who knows how that would go...

The only thing that a question like this - how to engage motorcyclists? - does, is encourage discussion, debate and argument. Possibly it encourages personal thinking for many. Perhaps some self reflection and acceptance of self responsibility for our actions amongst some as well.

[jellywrestler]

Getting back on track for a moment.

I think there would need to be a broad range of strategies, given the wide demographic within motorcycling.

after all this discussion that's it? that sort of shit is what government departments come up with that covers everything but says nothing in reality.

[Blackbird]

I like your thinking Blackbird... let's say if you've completed an advanced riding qualification [what that means is a totally other kettle of fish...] you can have 50% off, yes! 50% off your licence fee... Considering that the licence fee for a big bike, read over 600cc, is $24.50 then half of that is $12.25... worth it? Probably not...

Am I being cynical? Yes, I am. Considering that the ACC levy for the same bike is nearly 16 times the licence fee it would be nice to have something off that for improving your riding - difficulty in defining "improving your riding". But, the issue I see with that is that it could easily be seen as a form of rebate similar to the "no claims bonus" you get with insurance and then does that start to make the ACC scheme look more like an insurance and with that the other "conditions" that insurances carry - such as "it looks like an insurance so why not sell it off to an insurance company to run"...

The only thing that a question like this - how to engage motorcyclists? - does, is encourage discussion, debate and argument. Possibly it encourages personal thinking for many. Perhaps some self reflection and acceptance of self responsibility for our actions amongst some as well.

I don't have an answer Mark because as has already been said, we're not a united group so there's not one answer. One of the few common interests might be in the pocket. Why is Rastuscat having this conversation? Because of the accident/injury rate. Lots of contributing factors but there's a lot we can do to help ourselves by raising our skills. Surely the state can offer effective incentives in addition to subsidised Ride Forever courses?

[Viking01]

Getting back on track for a moment.

I think there would need to be a broad range of strategies, given the wide demographic within motorcycling.


Rastus,
I read your original post and saw it pertained to "our safety on the road".

Safety as a topic area is pretty wide. [ And one that might lend itself to
doing a little mind mapping ].

Anyway I'm still none the wiser as to the particular problem area and the
specific problem YOU are hoping to address (i.e. some problem statement).

And I can't see any statement of specific goals or objectives (i.e. against
which you might then define and attach some measures and measurements
- and gauge future progress). Not a criticism - just an observation.

The reason I ask you is that I see our (motorcyclist) safety on the road
being impacted by what we as motorcyclists do, as well as what other
road users do. [ Please just ignore physical environment for the moment ]

Are you interested in (for example):

1. Reduced Motorcycle Rider Death or Injury [ Counts or Costs ]
Are you seeking to help reduce the number of "fatals" (deaths) and/or the
number of "non-fatals" (injury crashes) ?

- or -

2. Reduced Motorcycle Crash Culpability [ Rider Responsible ]
Are you seeking to help reduce the number of "single vehicle" crash instances,
or "multi - vehicle" crash instances (involving a motorcycle) ?

[ I'm making the assumption that a "single vehicle" crash event is largely due to
rider own error, whereas a "multi-vehicle" crash event may have culpability split
between the two parties ]

- or -

3. Increased Motorcyclist Rider Authorisation or Competency [ Basic Training ]
Are you seeking to increase the number of motorcyclists (learner; provisional)
that have proceeded to full licence), or fully licensed riders that have then
undergone some approved training courses ?

- or -

4. Increased Motorcyclist Rider Hazard Avoidance [ Advanced Training ]
Are you seeking to help increase the number of motorcyclists that might have
been through a special course in hazard avoidance (e.g. adventure riders ;
quad bike riders ) ?


Because to start talking about strategies (the HOW TO) - without having defined
the above (the WHAT and the WHO) - would seem to me a little "cart before the
horse".

Plus you need to decide what data you need. As well as identify a suitable source
of data and acquire it e.g.
Fatals: Police (or Hospital) --> ESR --> NZTA --> MOT
Non-Fatals: ACC or MOT

Some good summary data should also help you with justification (the WHY).


To take just one of the above examples : (2) - Reduced Motorcycle Rider Crash
Culpability

Choice of "single vehicle" crash events might mean focusing solely on riders
and typical single person crash scenarios (e.g. run off road --> excess speed
or poor cornering technique ; cross centre line --> poor position ; rear end
collisions --> rider following too close ; under the influence --> drugs or
alcohol)

whereas

choice of "multi-vehicle" crash events would mean targeting both riders AND
other road users --> Immediately your target audience has exploded in size.

What you package up and communicate to riders alone, will be quite different
to what you might package up for other road users (e.g. car drivers - looking
out for motorcyclists better; taking special care when turning across lanes ).

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,
Viking

[rastuscat]

New job for me. Hence my OP.

[Luckylegs]

New job for me. Hence my OP.

Cool and more power to you, but... if your involved in anything that will become mandatory then you can stick your safety nazi _ _ _ _ where the sun doesn't shine. You'll just be becoming "one of them" rather than (or more correctly, solely) "one of us"

I'm sorry, I just don't think the situation is that bad


Anyway, another jaga and coke finished, hmmm.... some schnapps this round me thinks

[Berries]

New job for me. Hence my OP.
ACC or NZTA?

[rastuscat]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District

[Grumph]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District

Ooooh shit, where do I start ? Agricultural machinery on the road in low light situations and no lights...Road works speed restriction signs left in place for days after the work is completed...My local school insisting on pupils using the entrance on the Bealey rd when there's a nice safe back entrance on a quiet street.
If you want a hedge trimmed on a road boundary in Selwyn, no contractor is keen as there's no easy traffic management plan accessible on line - as there is for ChCh. And there's no assistance forthcoming from council staff either - they just tell you to go and read the regs.

Management - from the top - who lie to your face and in court. Councillors who don't give a fuck.

Not a nice place to work.

[Voltaire]

I think the last thing that was made mandatory was crash helmets back in the 70's.

compared to industry whoever makes those sort of decisions has largely sat on their hands for 40 years regarding PPE for riding motorcycles.

If people want to ride around with no gloves or jacket they should get invoiced for the skin grafts....oh hang on they do but its spread about

all the bike owners.

I'd need to see the RCA's for all crashes to see if there is a pattern, which I would imagine is being done but not visible to the public.

I'd like to know how many motor vehicle accidents involve mobile phones talking/texting or the one I saw the other day a plonker holding it

down low and clearly by his driving either reading a map or getting instructions.

So long story short, show me the stats and RCA's and I can make some decisions.

Here are some I have observed:

I don't want a Cruiser as it means I have to ride in groups.

I don't want a powerful bike as there are a lot of them at Star Auctions depot.

Riding at 100 K behind a line of cars is less stressful than picking them off one by one.

Slower bikes give you the sensation of speed.

Track days are good as no one is coming the other way ( however you will need gloves, jacket etc..)

Hands are hard to repair and quite useful.

Beer may increase perception of skill but proven not to.

If you need to lanesplit at speed set your alarm clock earlier.

Spend a day riding in Saigon,Istanbul or London, that will sharpen your skills up, or not.

Its no good expecting others to do things as you have no control over them, but you can control your space ( mostly).

:innocent:

[BMWGSER]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District

Well done and good luck in the new role.

[Luckylegs]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District

Congrats mate. Given your passion for the subject its a great opportunity - enjoy

[rastuscat]

Ooooh shit, where do I start ? Agricultural machinery on the road in low light situations and no lights...Road works speed restriction signs left in place for days after the work is completed...My local school insisting on pupils using the entrance on the Bealey rd when there's a nice safe back entrance on a quiet street.
If you want a hedge trimmed on a road boundary in Selwyn, no contractor is keen as there's no easy traffic management plan accessible on line - as there is for ChCh. And there's no assistance forthcoming from council staff either - they just tell you to go and read the regs.

Management - from the top - who lie to your face and in court. Councillors who don't give a fuck.

Not a nice place to work.

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like a great opportunity to address some problems.

[Viking01]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District


Rastus,
Morning. Congratulations on the new role. Well done.

So now that your new role has been announced, can I ask a couple of
quick questions:

1. Is this new role with the Council itself (as opposed to NZTA or ACC) ?

I saw a (possibly) similar role advertised online for Porirua City Council,
and that JD indicated "working for the Council" but liaising with various
organisations such as NZTA and ACC.

2. Will your focus be limited to just motorcycles and motorcycle safety ?

Or will it now include other vehicle types as well ? And include other
aspects of safety such as roading ?

Your initial post talked just about motorcyclists, which led me to think it
was a more motorcyclist centric role. But your new role (job title) seems
to indicate a much wider perspective.

Just interested.

Cheers,
Viking

[rastuscat]

Rastus,
Morning. Congratulations on the new role. Well done.

So now that your new role has been announced, can I ask a couple of
quick questions:

1. Is this new role with the Council itself (as opposed to NZTA or ACC) ?

I saw a (possibly) similar role advertised online for Porirua City Council,
and that JD indicated "working for the Council" but liaising with various
organisations such as NZTA and ACC.

2. Will your focus be limited to just motorcycles and motorcycle safety ?

Or will it now include other vehicle types as well ? And include other
aspects of safety such as roading ?

Your initial post talked just about motorcyclists, which led me to think it
was a more motorcyclist centric role. But your new role (job title) seems
to indicate a much wider perspective.

Just interested.

Cheers,
Viking



The RSC positions are joint funded by the council and NZTA.

Basically a liaison role between various Govt, local body, community organisations.

Motorcycle safety is one of Selwyns challenges, amongst others. Another biggie is intersections.

[caspernz]

The original post is fair enough, how do we unite a diverse group for a common goal? The carrot and stick routine might work. In my workplace we run a bonus scheme, amounts to a significant number if one achieves a few KPIs, which are really quite attainable. The target was safer driving, broken down into various smaller targets. Not perfect of course, but it brought all bar a couple of the guys'n'gals into line with the original company intent.

For bikers, unless we can get some benefit for the wallet, plenty of riders will just shrug their shoulders and carry on as usual. I'd love to know what percentage of actual riders (not just license holders) have partaken in the Rideforever courses.

Congrats on your new role Pete :clap:

[Akzle]

. I'd love to know what percentage of actual riders (not just license holders) have partaken in the Rideforever courses.

Congrats on your new role Pete :clap:

which is one of my bug bears about you iam folks. requiring a driving license and vehicle license, neither of which is indiciative of, nor inducive to, not-being-a-fuckwit-on-the-road.

but y'know... safety and shit.

[AllanB]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District


Cool - I'd send you the location of some pot holes that you can get fixed :woohoo:

I hope you are not responsible for the lowered speed (now 80) between Lincoln and TaiTapu. My Ducati is protesting about this.

[AllanB]

Oh and drop (I know, how weird) the speed limit through the shopping part of Lincoln town on the main road. I cant believe the speed knobs driving through do (I blame the out of towners, locals know there are two pedestrian crossings). From the Police station to art gallery will do.

[russd7]

Agricultural machinery on the road in low light situations and no lights...

and those pricks in tractors that drive down the road at night with their bloody plow lights on blinding you as you approach after you realize that vehicle you are approaching at twice their speed is actually traveling on your side of the road and in the same direction, their should be no warnings for those bastards, pull em over give em a big arse ticket then get up and smash their bloody plow lights, inconsiderate cnuts they are.

[GazzaH]

Ban intersections.

And traffic lights with vehicle sensors.

More mini roundabouts please.

And speed bumps with gaps.

And wide centre partings - "motorbike lanes".

[caspernz]

which is one of my bug bears about you iam folks. requiring a driving license and vehicle license, neither of which is indiciative of, nor inducive to, not-being-a-fuckwit-on-the-road.

but y'know... safety and shit.

What does my pet food affiliation have to do with this topic? About as logical as suggesting that just because one can walk upright without knuckles dragging, one is thus devoid of ape like thinking.

The basic question posed by RC is valid, how does one encourage fence sitters to have a closer look. Not about forcing anyone, merely trying to overcome the peer pressure that some riders have in partaking in post license training.

But yeah safety and shit...:eek5:



When I bought the idea up on here of safer riders paying a lower ACC than those with an "at fault" history no one was keen on the idea as everyone was in fear of being at fault or had an at fault history. Are you agreeing with me that a discount from ACC would be a good idea for safe riders?

No not agreeing with you at all, for ACC at present is a simple not-at-fault compensation scheme. Now whilst I'd support some sort of carrot for bikers to partake in post license training, the practicalities are a headache :innocent:

[Scuba_Steve]

Road Safety Coordinator for the Selwyn District

Grats, definitely a step up from tax collector

[caseye]

Well done that man,:lol: a position that will give you plenty to do from day 1, keep fighting the good fight Rastus.

[Moi]

... Another biggie is intersections.

I presume you've seen the single red/orange flashing light system that is used in the US and Canada at crossroads? A single red flashing light faces traffic that has a STOP sign, a single flashing orange faces traffic that has no sign. Some had the flashing red light at the top of the post which holds the STOP sign.

The flashing light does catch your attention and reminds you of the intersection. Guess it would need a change of regulation to be used here, but might be worth considering. Small cost if it saves injury or someone's life.

[rastuscat]

I presume you've seen the single red/orange flashing light system that is used in the US and Canada at crossroads? A single red flashing light faces traffic that has a STOP sign, a single flashing orange faces traffic that has no sign. Some had the flashing red light at the top of the post which holds the STOP sign.

The flashing light does catch your attention and reminds you of the intersection. Guess it would need a change of regulation to be used here, but might be worth considering. Small cost if it saves injury or someone's life.

I spent years in a blue suit trying to get rules changed. It led to me giving up. Fool's errand.

I might have more influence from the new position.

[Hoonicorn]

Those who are interested in safety will find you whereever you are. At Shiny Side Up, the irony was glaringly obvious - A woman explaining the importance of safety gear to a group of people in a mix of leathers, textiles and hivis. People who are interested in safety and want information go to these kinds of events. Bike shops have Shiny Side Up and Ride Forever posters up, I saw ads on facebook. Some riders just aren't that concerned with safety and won't engage on the subject.

What we need is a safety campaign aimed at drivers to look for motorbikes, not the same speed/drink message over and over.

[Grumph]

I spent years in a blue suit trying to get rules changed. It led to me giving up. Fool's errand.

I might have more influence from the new position.

The previous incumbent ran a very visible campaign on rural intersections - with what looks like a conspicuous lack of success.
You simply can't stop cockies rolling up to an intersection - and rolling on through. They're roads they've driven on all their lives
and they can't/won't take account of the increases in traffic volume - and speed.

[rastuscat]

The previous incumbent ran a very visible campaign on rural intersections - with what looks like a conspicuous lack of success.
You simply can't stop cockies rolling up to an intersection - and rolling on through. They're roads they've driven on all their lives
and they can't/won't take account of the increases in traffic volume - and speed.

That's what led to my OP.

How to get through to people who haven't ever imagined that they might be the nrxt story in The Press.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. Nobody ever thinks they might look to their right and not see the oncoming vehicle. Nobody ever thinks they might exceed the coefficient of friction on their rear tyre.

But each day it happens to someone who didn't ever think it would. Or didnt even consider that possibility.

Because if you knew it was going to happen, you'd change something to make sure it didnt.

It's an attitude reinforced by constant reminders that you can do stuff with no adverse outcome. E.g. thousands of people use their phones while driving every day with no adverse outcome.

If you do something often enough with no adverse outcome, your mind convinces you its safe. Because it's not going to happen to you.

Where's the motivation to not use your phone when you've done it hundreds of times with no adverse outcome.

This applies pretty much across the board with crash promoting behaviours.

It wont happen to me, why do I need to change my behaviour.

[Grumph]

Yes, well...Here's a slogan for your next campaign...."The road you know is the road you'll die on "

[Luckylegs]

Yes, well...Here's a slogan for your next campaign...."The road you know is the road you'll die on "

Thats so frickin cliche - got the stats to back that shit up?

[Grumph]

Thats so frickin cliche - got the stats to back that shit up?

No - but from observation the cockies being killed at local intersections here are within 4km or so of home.

Bear in mind it's aimed at rural intersections and people and not specifically at the relatively more intelligent motorcyclist.

[AllanB]

There is a woman in a small red car driving the length of Ellesmere Road about 7.45 am, Monday - Friday. A road marked 70-100 depending on which section you are on.

She is one of the most dangerous drivers I see each day, causing a line of frustrated drivers behind her daily who then make poor passing decisions (I've seen cars pass her on blind corners).

[Luckylegs]

No - but from observation the cockies being killed at local intersections here are within 4km or so of home.

Bear in mind it's aimed at rural intersections and people and not specifically at the relatively more intelligent motorcyclist.

Fairy nuff, sorry, mighta jumped the gun a bit. That slogan reminded me of the ol' country people die on country roads shite i remember as a kid. Annoyed me cos its so obvious but it disregards other more relevant factors.

Anyway, perhaps something more like "everyone loves their local cockie, but not when there driving like one"

...maybe not - its only wednesday, ill try again on friday after a glass of good time

[ellipsis]

Thats so frickin cliche - got the stats to back that shit up?

...stats are the truth...yeah right...rural people die on rural roads and the stats don't matter a fuck...complacency and out of date thinking takes out many rural dwellers within 15 k of being home, usually on a friday or sat night / early morning...if you want to check the stats yourself you could then disprove the Grumphs premise...no?...

[Luckylegs]

...stats are the truth...yeah right...rural people die on rural roads and the stats don't matter a fuck...complacency and out of date thinking takes out many rural dwellers within 15 k of being home, usually on a friday or sat night / early morning...if you want to check the stats yourself you could then disprove the Grumphs premise...no?...

Of course it does, its where they live ya fuckin knob. But so what, there are 10's of thousands of rural people driving many more times that in k's a year so the number is percentagely (thats probably not a word) low. Also take off the out of towners that die or locals that die because of out of towners and that number decreases again.

Id suggest ourtight stupidity and drug (including booze) fuelled incapability takes out the majority of the demographics you suggest.

Geez... you still got a bee in your bonnet from my 'twat'ness the other night ya grumpy cunt?

[ellipsis]

Of course it does, its where they live ya fuckin knob. But so what, there are 10's of thousands of rural people driving many more times that in k's a year so the number is percentagely (thats probably not a word) low. Also take off the out of towners that die or locals that die because of out of towners and that number decreases again.

Id suggest ourtight stupidity and drug (including booze) fuelled incapability takes out the majority of the demographics you suggest.

Geez... you still got a bee in your bonnet from my 'twat'ness the other night ya grumpy cunt?


...the key word was complacency , knob,...doesn't matter where you live, complacency kills the complacent but in many occasions the innocent...

[Luckylegs]

...doesn't matter where you live, complacency kills the complacent but in many occasions the innocent...

Which kind of sums up why i thought young grumphs slogan was a little naff in terms of a message. I dont think it adequately spelled out the issue that needs to be resolved (ie complancency - among other things). Perhaps it's implied, perhaps the general populus are complacent on known roads but im not so sure....

That said, it wasnt a dig at grumph or that he was making a suggestion but a point, which is the very topic of this thread, about how to engage, and im saying that slogans like that might not reach the people they need to in fact it might just have the opposite effect.

After all of that, the reply i got suggested that i was being to genetal anyway and it was intended to relate to the farm types and some of there less than ideal intersection habits.


.....fuck kiwibiker is easier drunk

[eldog]

I didn’t know much about the Selwyn district until I just looked it up on google map.
looks like rural with lots of straight roads with multi road intersections. Plenty of opportunities for accidents esp at intersections, where a quick glance right and left, you have been through plenty of times before, causes your mind to ‘see’ nothing coming (you might be thinking of something else etc) then move forward ‘BOOM’.
falling asleep on the way home would be a good one too
or ice.

tell me if I am wrong.

i hope you get action on whatever you suggest.

maybe Re align the secondary roads so they are not opposite, inviting the drag strip effect.

put up signs with year/decade number of accidents/deaths.

these need to keep changing otherwise complacency will set in.

it will be hard work. Get in peoples faces


eg for people who like going to war, Arlington Cemetry and watching the burial of a fallen soldier is quite sobering.

[ellipsis]

I didn’t know much about the Selwyn district until I just looked it up on google map.
looks like rural with lots of straight roads with multi road intersections. Plenty of opportunities for accidents esp at intersections, where a quick glance right and left, you have been through plenty of times before, causes your mind to ‘see’ nothing coming (you might be thinking of something else etc) then move forward ‘BOOM’.
falling asleep on the way home would be a good one too
or ice.

tell me if I am wrong.

i hope you get action on whatever you suggest.

maybe Re align the secondary roads so they are not opposite, inviting the drag strip effect.

put up signs with year/decade number of accidents/deaths.

these need to keep changing otherwise complacency will set in.

it will be hard work. Get in peoples faces


...we have more roads for the area involved than anywhere else, I read recently...the rural roads are in not too bad a condition...they are ridiculously long and straight and are interspersed with stop sign intersections or give way signs , gentle curves that don't seem much more than straight at 90kph but are a handful at 130kph if you are not aware or up with the play...I've been caught out on the odd occasion coming back from playing a gig out in a plains town and cruising home at 2 or 3 in the morning...pure luck at times that some poor cunt wasn't on an intersection that I had no idea of, as I flew through at 95 kph in the old two ton toyota...

[granstar]

and those pricks in tractors that drive down the road at night with their bloody plow lights on blinding you as you approach after you realize that vehicle you are approaching at twice their speed is actually traveling on your side of the road and in the same direction, their should be no warnings for those bastards, pull em over give em a big arse ticket then get up and smash their bloody plow lights, inconsiderate cnuts they are.

Followed a firkin ride on lawn mower around Cooper Corner roundabout today :laugh:

[Grumph]

...we have more roads for the area involved than anywhere else, I read recently...the rural roads are in not too bad a condition...they are ridiculously long and straight and are interspersed with stop sign intersections or give way signs , gentle curves that don't seem much more than straight at 90kph but are a handful at 130kph if you are not aware or up with the play...I've been caught out on the odd occasion coming back from playing a gig out in a plains town and cruising home at 2 or 3 in the morning...pure luck at times that some poor cunt wasn't on an intersection that I had no idea of, as I flew through at 95 kph in the old two ton toyota...

They're in worse condition now....The milk tankers on roads not built for the wheel loadings haven't helped. Nor have all the pipework crossings for the Central Plains water scheme.
Few years back a couple going home from a gig out our way went through a pole barrier on a straight bit of the Bealey where there were road works and a diversion. Smack into a parked dozer at over 100kph. Tiredness/inattention/complacency of the straight roads ?

[rastuscat]

They're in worse condition now....The milk tankers on roads not built for the wheel loadings haven't helped. Nor have all the pipework crossings for the Central Plains water scheme.
Few years back a couple going home from a gig out our way went through a pole barrier on a straight bit of the Bealey where there were road works and a diversion. Smack into a parked dozer at over 100kph. Tiredness/inattention/complacency of the straight roads ?

I haven't got a start date yet, but the issues identified are varied.

2400 km of roadway, lots of it long and straight. Lots of intersections.

Issues include intersections, old/young drivers, alcohol, [B]motorcycles[B], loss of control on bends.

Plus all the standard stuff like distractions, following too closely, inattention.

[rastuscat]

Maybe start with having an additional sign that there is an intersection 400m ahead in addition to the ones that say an intersection is 200m ahead as at 100km an hour it could be easy to miss the 200m ahead sign.

I read a study years ago that said that due to the increasing numbers of signs being installed, people only mindfully register around 20% of the signs installed.

The signs just become part of the white noise littering the road sides, from the point of view of a drivers mind.

I think wearing a gorilla suit waving a pink "Look Out" sign mind draw someone's attention. I'll run it past the new boss.

[Grumph]

Signs out here are merely targets. There's one up the road from me that when I saw it, I did a double take - I didn't know anyone in the area had a cannon...

Who's your boss at SDC ?

[eldog]

Use of variable spaced rumble strips as closing to stops
Not speed humps

Space them in groups with decreasing spaces closer to stop

Just a thought

Wearing a pink gorilla suit might not cut it.

Agree about number signs becoming noise.
Some recent signs are way to reflective. They are becoming a hazard in themselves.

Hi vis similar problem

[rastuscat]

Signs out here are merely targets. There's one up the road from me that when I saw it, I did a double take - I didn't know anyone in the area had a cannon...

Who's your boss at SDC ?

Not sure. Not that I'd post it even if I did know.

[scumdog]

I read a study years ago that said that due to the increasing numbers of signs being installed, people only mindfully register around 20% of the signs installed.

The signs just become part of the white noise littering the road sides, from the point of view of a drivers mind.

I think wearing a gorilla suit waving a pink "Look Out" sign mind draw someone's attention. I'll run it past the new boss.



An idea I saw in the States was a series of 'rumble strips' across the road near intersections out in the country, as you approach the intersection the strips get progressively closer the nearer you got to the intersection

I guess the subconscious senses you're getting faster as you near the intersection due to the 'babump' noises getting closer and closer and you feel the need to slow down?:scratch:

EDIT: I see eldog has posted much the same!

[SVboy]

I find the SDC has imposed an 80km limit between Lincoln and Taitapu. Makes sense on the old Taitapu road with a lot of residential/farm entrances with blind corners, but on a mainly straight road with no crossroads apart from Ellesmere rd? Smacks of heavy handed big brother imho. Your take Mr safety co-ordinator?

[Grumph]

I find the SDC has imposed an 80km limit between Lincoln and Taitapu. Makes sense on the old Taitapu road with a lot of residential/farm entrances with blind corners, but on a mainly straight road with no crossroads apart from Ellesmere rd? Smacks of heavy handed big brother imho. Your take Mr safety co-ordinator?

refer my post re roads not built for the wheel loadings now seen. In conjunction with a council reluctant to spend on road maintenance, you're going to see more lower limits.

[roogazza]

Ripple strips shit me ! I swerve onto the wrong side to avoid them around here in the Horowhenua.
Being a motorcyclist I avoid bumps .But yes, in the Falcooon tho, they shit me. :yawn:

Another joke around here in the wire rope barriers going up every other place. (is someone making money with this little game ?) :angry2:

[rastuscat]

I find the SDC has imposed an 80km limit between Lincoln and Taitapu. Makes sense on the old Taitapu road with a lot of residential/farm entrances with blind corners, but on a mainly straight road with no crossroads apart from Ellesmere rd? Smacks of heavy handed big brother imho. Your take Mr safety co-ordinator?

I've not even started the job yet, first day is Monday week.

I'd appreciate the chance to speak to the folk involved, engineers, planners etc, before forming a view.

It's been my experience that some speed reductions are very well justified. Can't speak for that one yet.

[sinfull]

Ripple strips shit me ! I swerve onto the wrong side to avoid them around here in the Horowhenua.
Being a motorcyclist I avoid bumps .But yes, in the Falcooon tho, they shit me. :yawn:

Another joke around here in the wire rope barriers going up every other place. (is someone making money with this little game ?) :angry2:

You're talking Tararua rd aye Gaz ... Only rumbles strips like that coming up to an Intersection i've ever seen ! Think they are a marvelous idea

[rastuscat]

You're talking Tararua rd aye Gaz ... Only rumbles strips like that coming up to an Intersection i've ever seen ! Think they are a marvelous idea

I saw some once. I don't recall where. I remember thinking at the time that the roading guys must have had too many orange juices.

Turns out they are carefully placed, and spaced.

But then, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[SVboy]

I've not even started the job yet, first day is Monday week.

I'd appreciate the chance to speak to the folk involved, engineers, planners etc, before forming a view.

It's been my experience that some speed reductions are very well justified. Can't speak for that one yet.

Hurry Man! This is important!

[sinfull]

Going back to the original post ...
I tried to read the thread, but it's obvious not much has changed in the 8 years i've not been on this site ... most here are still clowns and it's not worth reading the responses !

What ever you do my authoritative friend, will be an improvement to what is out there now ...
I've seen a few ACC funded ride forever courses advertised.. but far from enough considering the cost of rego now !
It should perhaps be ACC, the starting point you're looking for ?

Everybody likes free shit and Motorcyclists being who/what they are, like to show off ... Mix the two perhaps !
Skills are picked up in many ways .. You teach a kid to power slide a MC and he will learn to control a slide in a back brake mistake ! You take a kid to the track and he will learn his limits and that of his bike ... Particularly if there is someone there with knowledge of bike set up and the science of tires/temp/pressures, willing to help (or Paid by our levies)

Another big one is the fact so many Motorcyclists still blame everyone else for getting hurt.. So what if the car driver was at fault ? The rider is the one who will be broken in a mix up with a car, so He/She has to have far more situational awareness ... You will not be able to educate Car drivers to watch for Motorcyclists (unless each and every driver was to do a BHS course on a MC, which would prob only be any good for the first 6 months)

I watched a vid this morning that someone had put on FB, of a rider in the states going through an intersection and ploughing into a turning car ...
Car was obviously at fault ... but i commented that the rider deserved all he got ... My bad and got reprimanded for it... But i stand by my comment..
The video (meme) said the rider was only doing 30mph but yet it self destructed on impact, to the point the front tire rolled away without a rim, not to mention the car had half it's front torn off ... No way was that a 30mph crash but I was BAD for saying the rider was a fool to enter that intersection at the speed he was doing >> (i recon minimum of 55 60 mph)
So i read some of the comments on the original post and there was a hell debate as to who was in the wrong ... Who fucking cares who was wrong ... the car diver walked and the rider ended up in hospital ...

Situational awareness ... Other drivers are going to fuck up, Your average car driver does not see a headlight or a day glo vest, because they are looking for a grille ... why is it so hard to drum this into riders heads ?

Anyway go hard with whatever you try to do to save lives ... and thank you !

PS ... I know, i know ... i sound like Steve here ... Yes and i still back everything he has said 100% about Motorcyclists needing to take responsibility for their own safety !

[rastuscat]

Going back to the original post ...
I tried to read the thread, but it's obvious not much has changed in the 8 years i've not been on this site ... most here are still clowns and it's not worth reading the responses !

What ever you do my authoritative friend, will be an improvement to what is out there now ...
I've seen a few ACC funded ride forever courses advertised.. but far from enough considering the cost of rego now !
It should perhaps be ACC, the starting point you're looking for ?

Everybody likes free shit and Motorcyclists being who/what they are, like to show off ... Mix the two perhaps !
Skills are picked up in many ways .. You teach a kid to power slide a MC and he will learn to control a slide in a back brake mistake ! You take a kid to the track and he will learn his limits and that of his bike ... Particularly if there is someone there with knowledge of bike set up and the science of tires/temp/pressures, willing to help (or Paid by our levies)

Another big one is the fact so many Motorcyclists still blame everyone else for getting hurt.. So what if the car driver was at fault ? The rider is the one who will be broken in a mix up with a car, so He/She has to have far more situational awareness ... You will not be able to educate Car drivers to watch for Motorcyclists (unless each and every driver was to do a BHS course on a MC, which would prob only be any good for the first 6 months)

I watched a vid this morning that someone had put on FB, of a rider in the states going through an intersection and ploughing into a turning car ...
Car was obviously at fault ... but i commented that the rider deserved all he got ... My bad and got reprimanded for it... But i stand by my comment..
The video (meme) said the rider was only doing 30mph but yet it self destructed on impact, to the point the front tire rolled away without a rim, not to mention the car had half it's front torn off ... No way was that a 30mph crash but I was BAD for saying the rider was a fool to enter that intersection at the speed he was doing >> (i recon minimum of 55 60 mph)
So i read some of the comments on the original post and there was a hell debate as to who was in the wrong ... Who fucking cares who was wrong ... the car diver walked and the rider ended up in hospital ...

Situational awareness ... Other drivers are going to fuck up, Your average car driver does not see a headlight or a day glo vest, because they are looking for a grille ... why is it so hard to drum this into riders heads ?

Anyway go hard with whatever you try to do to save lives ... and thank you !

Yes, it always makes me smile how much debate goes on post-crash about whose fault it is. To be clear, fault matters little when it comes to the outcome of the crash you just had.

If you own the crash, you have a chance to learn from it. If you just sit back and play the blame game you leave the solution to someone else.

We can also learn from other peoples crashes. But only if that person learns from it themselves.

It's all a bit psychological, but it comes down to this. If you own the problem, you own the solution.

[Grumph]

I saw some once. I don't recall where. I remember thinking at the time that the roading guys must have had too many orange juices.

Turns out they are carefully placed, and spaced.

But then, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

There's a set of them at the junction above the Rakaia gorge - sited I believe to wake up the early morning skiers going through to Mt Hutt...
That junction, despite being wide open and flat, has one of the worst accident records in the county.
The inland road south of the gorge also has them before single lane bridges.
Quite a good audible/tactile warning IMO.

[rastuscat]

I find the SDC has imposed an 80km limit between Lincoln and Taitapu. Makes sense on the old Taitapu road with a lot of residential/farm entrances with blind corners, but on a mainly straight road with no crossroads apart from Ellesmere rd? Smacks of heavy handed big brother imho. Your take Mr safety co-ordinator?

Interesting link below, if you have the time.

http://www.abley.com/about-us/latest-news/will-30kmh-speed-limits-in-city-centres-make-any-difference/

[AllanB]

It's been my experience that some speed reductions are very well justified. Can't speak for that one yet.

Knocking it down on Ellesmere Rd I understand - it's narrow, quick and getting bumpy. The one SV references is one of the better condition roads. Potentially lowered due to volume of traffic more than anything.

[jellywrestler]

do youse fullas have much in the way of your own tv channel down there like CTV still?
i get pissed off with the adverts telling us we're all idiots for going 0.5 over the speed limit and murderers etc, and just shut off, yet when is the last time we had an educating type of adverts, like why to dip you lights quickly, how to stop correctly for a pedestarian and some defensive driving tips?
most people cease to learn anything at all about driving as soon as they've got their license.
Cell phone use, there's yellow posts at traffic lights holding the fucking things up, what about some little signs on some of them re cell phone use, if people learn to use them less at an intersection then this should reduce the use while rolling.


i see some areas are introducing bycycle patrols aimed at catching people at intersections, why not have remotely monitored cameras at some intersections, you may not be able to ticket people but sending a reminder with a piccie of them on their phone or texting while at the lights might be enough to curb that behaviour a bit
big brotherish but cell phone use to me is a huge issue in attention on the roads.

[Scuba_Steve]

I read a study years ago that said that due to the increasing numbers of signs being installed, people only mindfully register around 20% of the signs installed.

The signs just become part of the white noise littering the road sides, from the point of view of a drivers mind.

I think wearing a gorilla suit waving a pink "Look Out" sign mind draw someone's attention. I'll run it past the new boss.

Tis true same happens with the "hit me I'm here" vests, road cones & especially temp speed zones/roadworks (they've been used so much in places that shouldn't have them they've just been ignored)

The design of roads doesn't help things either with signs & pretty coloured lights telling everyone what to do in an attempt to have it so people don't have to think, end result is people don't think.
The mission to make the roads safe is also detrimental to safety in that if people feel safe they pay less attention, so make the roads look unsafe (as they are) this doesn't have to mean you make them less safe just make it appear they're unsafe; same idea as those "traffic calming devices" like the hi-vis reeds they put in center of roads that make the road appear narrower & thus has the less than ideal drivers slowing down. Roads no narrower but the perception causes a adjustment.
However put thought into it. One of the other "traffic calming devices" NZTA like to use is blocking vision at roundabouts... fucking stupid idea that one

You want driver attention remove those pretty coloured lights, ban automagics, make the roads look dangerous; there's a start

[rastuscat]

However put thought into it. One of the other "traffic calming devices" NZTA like to use is blocking vision at roundabouts... fucking stupid

QE2 and Marshland Rd. Used to be one if the most crashed roundabouts in Chch.

Coz it had trees growing on it. And very poor views across the roundabout.

To be fair, it would have been fine if people had made good gap selections. But no.

[scumdog]

QE2 and Marshland Rd. Used to be one if the most crashed roundabouts in Chch.

Coz it had trees growing on it. And very poor views across the roundabout.

To be fair, it would have been fine if people had made good gap selections. But no.

A common one that:

"Where it was parked the Prado was blocking my view and I didn't see the other car coming"

"Did you not think of cautiously creeping out of the side street until you COULD see instead of just driving out?"

"No....":crazy::wacko:

[Scuba_Steve]

A common one that:

"Where it was parked the Prado was blocking my view and I didn't see the other car coming"

"Did you not think of cautiously creeping out of the side street until you COULD see instead of just driving out?"

"No....":crazy::wacko:

Don't know the intersection in case but there are some round my region where in a standard cage you'd have to have your bonnet half in the lane to see round SUV's parked up, pretty much have the whole car out if you're rolling something like a Mercedes Benz SLS AMG

[Scuba_Steve]

You are certainly better off visability wise on a bike or in an SUV. I read recently that Ford are going to stop manufacturing all cars except for the Mustang and just make 4WDs and utes. No doubt other manufacturers will follow suit.

FYI it's SUV's not 4WD's that they're making (For the American market, there's still Euro Ford); most don't have 4WD they're FWD station-wagons in an oversize package

[Moi]

A common one that:

"Where it was parked the Prado was blocking my view and I didn't see the other car coming"

"Did you not think of cautiously creeping out of the side street until you COULD see instead of just driving out?"

"No....":crazy::wacko:

Bloody tinted windows... once upon a time you could see through parked vehicles or when they were in a steam of traffic... nowadays they either have tinted windows [why?] or they're mobile garden sheds parked on the side of the road...

[AllanB]

I know you can buy them in both 2 and 4wd but the point I am making is if you want better visability than you have in your car the way to go is to buy one. If cars stop being make it wont worry me as I bought a 4WD back in 2002 after being in a "NOT AT FAULT" head on crash and I would not go back to a car.


So you can now drive round like one of those other cunts in large 4WD's who think nothing will happen to them?

False God there girl, just look at the number of truck crashes in NZ.

[Hoonicorn]

SUVs take up more lane space, making lane splitting harder for motorbikes and pushbikes.:weep:

[actungbaby]

If I wanted to engage with motorcyclists, where would I start?

On here? Motorcycle shops? Clubs? Facebook?

The subject would be our safety on the road. Not a sexy subject, and one which isn't sold easily.

Nobody thinks it'll happen to them. The crash. So nobody sees the need to change to prevent it.

Where would someone start?

Are u kidding me no one expects it.
Have u been on road lately...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[actungbaby]

I'll engage if you can:

get the AA to feck off,
the councils to acknowledge motorcycles as a valid if not necessary form of transport in cities,
ACC cover tax only applying to single Class6 license rather than per bike

I add not getting ripped of on acc levvys . Have seen how cheap it is in uk. Cant tell me they dont have simlar accident rates.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[actungbaby]

I think you're going to have a hard time getting engagement with motorcyclists on this matter. Motorcyclists already feel besieged by unwanted advice and preaching. Everyone who rides a motorcycle already knows, understands and accepts the risks - why do we need a constant brigade of hi-viz-wearing nanny-staters constantly evangelising at us?

To answer your question though, I'd be engaging motorcyclists in person rather than online - bike shops, events, group runs etc.

Here here . Enjoy the noment and the ride . Other wise dont bother..
I decided stop being moaning millie . Not get up tight over orher drivers. There just people .but yeah so over pc idiots . And busy bodies .


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[AllanB]

So based on your theory everyone should be driving large 4WD's or the likes. Lets assume they become the majority road vehicle. People will still crash, you'll just have two arrogant drivers thinking they are immune to damage ramming into each other at speed.

The licence system is shit. I got mine when I was a kid, other than a eye test every decade I am not tested, or reviewed or refreshed again until I am what, 70?

Minimum should be a defensive driving course every decade with road rule refreshers.

[jellywrestler]

I would not say nothing would happen but just that less is likely to happen. In the example you give of truck crashes if its car v truck who is most likely to die?

either or, that's like saying a car is travelling down the road with a maori a samoan a tongan and a fijian, who is driving?




the answer is- a policeman.

[granstar]

So based on your theory everyone should be driving large 4WD's or the likes. Lets assume they become the majority road vehicle. People will still crash, you'll just have two arrogant drivers thinking they are immune to damage ramming into each other at speed.

The licence system is shit. I got mine when I was a kid, other than a eye test every decade I am not tested, or reviewed or refreshed again until I am what, 70?

Minimum should be a defensive driving course every decade with road rule refreshers.

Quite valid that, unfortunately some are thicko's and should resit it every year. Is basic indicating your move really that difficult or has society just got selfish and now really are just not giving a fuck about others.?

[rambaldi]

Rastus given it is related to your new job do you think you can find out what NZTA mean in the TAIP (https://www.nzta.govt.nz/planning-and-investment/national-land-transport-programme/draft-transport-agency-investment-proposal-2018-27/) when they talk about "motorcycle routes". I read something about SH2 around Wellington but not finding a whole bunch of detail. Is it an expansion of what they attempted around coro with the safer barriers etc. or is it something else?

[Jeff Sichoe]

The draft TAIP is one element by which the Transport Agency gives effect to the draft Government Policy Statement on land transport (GPS) and its strategic priorities of:

a safe system, free from death and serious injury

The writing is on the wall here fellas, motorcycles to be made illegal by 2020 I reckon

[rambaldi]

The draft TAIP is one element by which the Transport Agency gives effect to the draft Government Policy Statement on land transport (GPS) and its strategic priorities of:

a safe system, free from death and serious injury

The writing is on the wall here fellas, motorcycles to be made illegal by 2020 I reckon

Given they explicitly call for something about motorcycle routes (as in my post just above) I wouldn't be all doom and gloom just yet.

[Banditbandit]

From your reply I guess you dont know what truly riding a bike is either fuckwit?

No - from my reply you can guess that I think you're a pedantic fuckwit ...

[Berries]

Rastus given it is related to your new job do you think you can find out what NZTA mean in the TAIP (https://www.nzta.govt.nz/planning-and-investment/national-land-transport-programme/draft-transport-agency-investment-proposal-2018-27/) when they talk about "motorcycle routes". I read something about SH2 around Wellington but not finding a whole bunch of detail. Is it an expansion of what they attempted around coro with the safer barriers etc. or is it something else?
I think Rastus will be busy doing radio jingles and billboards this week ;)

Last year 'they' asked riders what their favourite routes were and these have become the 'motorcycle routes' you mention. There is a website available with all of them shown. On those routes any new barrier has to have under run protection but at the moment that is all they are doing, certainly down here. Other stuff from Coromandel will no doubt appear on some of the more popular routes, like the one over the hill to Featherston.

They'll probably link the favourite routes with the high risk motorcycle routes based on crashes and try and prioritise any improvements on that. There are loads of favourite routes across the country but in comparison relatively few high risk routes. Wellington has a few of them mind.


The writing is on the wall here fellas, motorcycles to be made illegal by 2020 I reckon
I'll have $20 that they won't.

[rastuscat]

Two days til i start the new job. Who knows what it's going to bring.

[Moi]

Two days til i start the new job. Who knows what it's going to bring.

I trust it brings a pay pocket once a week... :laugh::facepalm:


Hope you start each day with a spring in your step, despite the challenges...

[rastuscat]

I trust it brings a pay pocket once a week... :laugh::facepalm:


Hope you start each day with a spring in your step, despite the challenges...

Fortnightly.

Significantly less than the average salary as published in today's Press. Money isn't my motivation.

[Hobbyhorse]

Rastuscat, I hope your first day is good and the ones that follow are even better.

[Honest Andy]

After listening to a news report about teenagers dying while trying to outrun the police, my teenager made the point that while there is quite a lot of road safety teaching done wirh the help of police in primary school, there is none at high school. Just an observation from one problem demographic...

[eldog]

Yes, it always makes me smile how much debate goes on post-crash about whose fault it is. To be clear, fault matters little when it comes to the outcome of the crash you just had.

If you own the crash, you have a chance to learn from it. If you just sit back and play the blame game you leave the solution to someone else.

We can also learn from other peoples crashes. But only if that person learns from it themselves.

It's all a bit psychological, but it comes down to this. If you own the problem, you own the solution.
+1
It can take a while to acknowledge the problem, no matter who or what is at fault.
accepting the outcome can be difficult.
finding the solution isn’t always easy, self blame and fear can play a part.
but support, time and giving oneself space, can improve the outcome.

while I think owning the problem is valuable it doesn’t always automatically generate a solution.
Add time.

i find looking at other situations helps a lot. Most people wouldn’t/could be bothered.

most are self absorbed on the road


vary what you do on the road, so you become different from the masses.
change intersection scenery so people don’t become complacent.
eg different patterns for rumble strips

[HenryDorsetCase]

After listening to a news report about teenagers dying while trying to outrun the police, my teenager made the point that while there is quite a lot of road safety teaching done wirh the help of police in primary school, there is none at high school. Just an observation from one problem demographic...

I'm torn. Conflicted even. I really am. I got pinged once for trying to outrun the po po on a motorbike. I would have got away except I was in a strange part of town..... and when I was young we did some stupid stupid shit in cars. Stupid. and we were lucky. There was the one kid in my school who died when he rolled his mums car. Window down arm out the window, car rolled over, arm off, bled to death apparently. But I never liked him and I liked him even less when the whole school had to go and stand outside while they drove the funeral procession through the school. Bit of a heavy handed lesson that one. And I learned to drive (properly) on a shingle road in a government issued Ford Sierra. Twas great. putting cars in ditches and getting them out again, hoping your mum didnt notice the grass between the wheelrim and the tyre "How did that get there??" "what "?

But nowadays it isnt all about hijinks and friendly japes - it seems lots of idiots think that GTA - V is real and you can do stuff in cars that they do, or they see in a Fast and Flatulent movie. And they die. Plus they seem like fuckwits and its just the gene pool giving itself a bit of a clean. But then I think about how lucky me and my friends were. Cars go faster now. Theres more traffic and less shingle roads. maybe theres more teenage idiots too?

Like I say, conflicted.

[rastuscat]

After listening to a news report about teenagers dying while trying to outrun the police, my teenager made the point that while there is quite a lot of road safety teaching done wirh the help of police in primary school, there is none at high school. Just an observation from one problem demographic...

One of the issues there is that high schools are already packed to the gills with stuff that is deemed important. I have a degree of sympathy with them.

They are expected to deliver the stuff that parents used to, like how to be a decent citizen, how to manage in today's world, how to avoid prison, and not least, how to gain NCEA credits.

Trying to pack driving or road safety lessons into the curriculum too just makes the poor principals glaze over, as they have to think what to delete from the programme to accommodate new stuff.

Just a sympathetic note for teachers.

[Honest Andy]

One of the issues there is that high schools are already packed to the gills with stuff that is deemed important. I have a degree of sympathy with them.

They are expected to deliver the stuff that parents used to, like how to be a decent citizen, how to manage in today's world, how to avoid prison, and not least, how to gain NCEA credits.

Trying to pack driving or road safety lessons into the curriculum too just makes the poor principals glaze over, as they have to think what to delete from the programme to accommodate new stuff.

Just a sympathetic note for teachers.

Yeah that was going through my mind while I listened to yesterday's "sermon at breakfast".
The point was that having gone to the trouble of having Constable Keith engage primary kids with positive messages about road safety, and simultaniously demystifying the police a bit, most of that learning was being eroded at high school (for any number of reasons) but may have been reinforced by having Seargent Stephanie be a part of the driver education, which is already taught and is worth some NCEA credits. And perhaps maintain a more positive relationship with all the Police Pauls and Paulines.

But who knows, that's just what my teen thought yesterday...

[Berries]

Rastus given it is related to your new job do you think you can find out what NZTA mean in the TAIP (https://www.nzta.govt.nz/planning-and-investment/national-land-transport-programme/draft-transport-agency-investment-proposal-2018-27/) when they talk about "motorcycle routes". I read something about SH2 around Wellington but not finding a whole bunch of detail.
Nobody asked when I said there was a website but as I do like a good bun fight here's the link for your entertainment - https://roadsafetyrisk.co.nz/maps/motorcyclist-risk/regions

[rambaldi]

Nobody asked when I said there was a website but as I do like a good bun fight here's the link for your entertainment - https://roadsafetyrisk.co.nz/maps/motorcyclist-risk/regions

Thanks, that is quite interesting :)

[Voltaire]

I add not getting ripped of on acc levvys . Have seen how cheap it is in uk. Cant tell me they dont have simlar accident rates.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't tell you about the accident rates, but for the 5 years I lived there in the later 80's early 90's they are far more courteous driers.

At the time I rated NZ driving as about as good as Spanish/Portugese and slighty better then Greece and Turkey.

The UK has totally different roads to here, NZ roads other than the tiny motorway network are not suited to 100 kmph as the terrain is

constantly changing and will not suffer a moments inattention without courting Mr Darwin. Add Smart Phones and Dumb Users into the mix

and its amplified.

[Swoop]

The draft TAIP is one element by which the Transport Agency gives effect to the draft Government Policy Statement on land transport (GPS) and its strategic priorities of:

a safe system, free from death and serious injury

"Free" from death?
"Free" from serious injury?

So, basically an unobtainable goal.
Deluded fuckwits.

[rastuscat]

I can't tell you about the accident rates, but for the 5 years I lived there in the later 80's early 90's they are far more courteous driers..

Clothes driers? Hair driers?

[rastuscat]

"Free" from death?
"Free" from serious injury?

So, basically an unobtainable goal.
Deluded fuckwits.

A road death is not a goal. Aiming to eliminate a road death is.

[russd7]

A road death is not a goal. Aiming to eliminate a road death is.

I actually have a fair bit of respect for what you do and tend to agree with a fair bit of stuff you say but for anyone to set a goal of zero road deaths, as the guvment have indicated, are setting it up for failure. People will look at it and laugh as unless we become totally regulated and controlled and all put in completely automated transportation then it is absolutely unachievable. for a goal to be any good it has to be achievable or no one will take any notice of it.
I have ridden with people who are afraid of dying whilst riding and honestly i don't ride with them for long, they become dangerous and unpredictable with their braking etc, i have also ridden with (and been one) riders who don't really give a rats arse if they die while riding and so ride accordingly, I kinda think im somewhere in the middle now, im not scared of being killed while riding but i do mitigate risk to a large degree, yes i have done ride forever courses which have reminded me that i became lazy as opposed to teaching me a whole lot of stuff i didn't already know but i enjoy riding for the risk it poses as much as anything else.
having said that, any close call i have i always dissect it to see why i ended up in a close call situation and what i could have done better to avoid another persons mistake. (my mistakes i already know what i did wrong).

to me where there is life, there is death, and horrible shit happens from time to time.

set goals that are achievable, zero deaths is not an achievable goal

[Berries]

set goals that are achievable, zero deaths is not an achievable goal
Unless something has changed it was "increasingly free of deaths and serious injuries" so an ongoing reduction which you can't argue with. No government can set an actual number as a target. Will try and find an Australian TV ad from a couple of years ago which shows why that does not make sense.

[russd7]

Unless something has changed it was "increasingly free of deaths and serious injuries" so an ongoing reduction which you can't argue with. No government can set an actual number as a target. Will try and find an Australian TV ad from a couple of years ago which shows why that does not make sense.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102941775/government-looks-at-targeting-zero-road-deaths-and-serious-injuries-from-2020

actually have zero respect for this person

[caspernz]

In some circles it's referred to as Vision Zero, so the aim is to have none, whilst accepting that Human Factors makes this unattainable. :rolleyes:

[Berries]

In some circles it's referred to as Vision Zero, so the aim is to have none, whilst accepting that Human Factors makes this unattainable. :rolleyes:
I think this was covered earlier in the thread.

Anyway, that video as to why you cannot have an acceptable number - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_v34lK_oXw

[jellywrestler]

Clothes driers? Hair driers? my clothes dryer has it's own hair drier....

[AllanB]

I have ridden with people who are afraid of dying whilst riding and honestly i don't ride with them for long, they become dangerous and unpredictable with their braking etc,

You been riding with Cassina?

[Swoop]

A road death is not a goal. Aiming to eliminate a road death is.
Eliminating "a" road death is achievable. Deluded politicians who want to eliminate "all" road deaths need to be rounded up and sent off to the camps for re-education...

[Moi]

I think this was covered earlier in the thread.

Anyway, that video as to why you cannot have an acceptable number - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_v34lK_oXw

Wow, powerful advert...

Be interesting to hear the public's reaction to it IF it was shown on ALL free-to-air television channels in NZ at 6:30pm...

[caspernz]

I think this was covered earlier in the thread.

Anyway, that video as to why you cannot have an acceptable number - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_v34lK_oXw

Good one thanks, I haven't spent much time on here lately, got fed up with the cassina BS for one. That's a good video.

The Vision Zero approach has loads of merit, but the detractors get hung up on the ambition of the concept.

[russd7]

You been riding with Cassina?

thankfully no but i do believe i passed it round Wind Whistle round xmas time, if it wasn't cassina then was surely related, i didn't hang round long enough to find out, had to catch up to me mates who went thru the day before

[Taxythingy]

thankfully no but i do believe i passed it round Wind Whistle round xmas time, if it wasn't cassina then was surely related, i didn't hang round long enough to find out, had to catch up to me mates who went thru the day before

It's the new driver's eyesight test. From ten metres, can you spot the tufts of dog hair poking out of the forks & headlight?

[rastuscat]

Just a slightly different thought on Vision Zero. What road death number should we aim for, if not zero?


https://youtu.be/yHhiUv9hX-o

[Scuba_Steve]

Zero's a nice pipe dream, but it is unrealistic
I don't think it should be a number or a absolute we head for. We should look to minimize retards & bad driving thus minimizing death on roads.
But 0 is impossible there will always be death, roads are dangerous & the race to an absolute makes that worse as they implement stupid decisions on their paving on the road to hell

[rastuscat]

Zero's a nice pipe dream, but it is unrealistic
I don't think it should be a number or a absolute we head for. We should look to minimize retards & bad driving thus minimizing death on roads.
But 0 is impossible there will always be death, roads are dangerous & the race to an absolute makes that worse as they implement stupid decisions on their paving on the road to hell

I hear ya Skoober, but I ask you this : How many of your mates is is acceptable to kill in road crashes? Pick a number.

[Scubbo]

problem is there are so many suicidal pricks on the road, not afraid to die or cause carnage "it'll just be an end to my shitty life anyway"....

not sure how you're gonna fix that, tougher penalties or punishment will only exacerbate their issues too --- guilt trip ads wont work as they have no self worth which put them still above everyone else in their list of care which is nil --- fun times on the roads :no:

[buggerit]

Road deaths are serious , just a shame the govt doesnt think so otherwise they
would target the real problems on the road rather than bolstering the consolidated
fund and putting the real problems in the to hard basket.
As long as they target speed they wasting time and recources, fuckwits.

[Scuba_Steve]

I hear ya Skoober, but I ask you this : How many of your mates is is acceptable to kill in road crashes? Pick a number.

How many would I like to see killed? none.
How do I expect are possibly gonna be killed? a couple, maybee 4.
How many are acceptable? that'll depend on the circumstances of the death.

But then I'm not the "target audience". I accept death is part of life, I accept the roads as a dangerous place (& think they should be "marketed" as such). Circumstances may piss me off, but the inevitability of death I'm alright with.

[FJRider]

... but I ask you this : How many of your mates is is acceptable to kill in road crashes? Pick a number.

If we only kill ourselves ... others might say we were lucky.

If your question really was "How many of our mates " .. ??? ... should die in road crashes ... you are either a dramatist or a fuckwit. Don't claim you're trying to make a point.

Motorcycling is dangerous. Usually the basic reason most motorcyclists ride. Those that choose to ride with no consideration for other motorists (or themselves) ... will be odd's on favorites to die. Sadly it does not usually / ALWAYS turn out that way. Funny (NOT) that ...

Those that ride know the risks ... and (usually) take some mitigating actions in an attempt to reduce the risks involved. Those that don't take those actions ... are pretty much their own killer if they die on the roads. Regardless of whom was declared "At Fault" for their accident. They can't say they didn't know the risks.

The old adage ... experience is something you get, right after you need it ... comes to mind. It's just a pity ... too many don't live long enough to get that experience. Simply perhaps ... because they haven't bought some experience on a training course ... or been given (or taken) good advice on how to ride like there is a tomorrow.

Thought for the day ... If only motorcyclists died in motor accidents ... would this be acceptable to the Government (of the day) and their policy ... and to the general (non motorcycle riding) public ... ???

We ALL ride as we see fit ... AT THE TIME. Fault and responsibility is for the courts and our families to discuss and decide.

If they take the risk ... then they know the risk. If things turn to custard ... they know where the blame will lie.

[AllanB]

Can I nominate some customers ........


But seriously, zero is nice. So is no smoking, or no alcohol related issues, or poverty or, or, or .....


But giving up is not the answer.


Q: how come it is acceptable for shit loads to die in the water each year? No Government funding for surf life saving.

[FJRider]

Q: how come it is acceptable for shit loads to die in the water each year? No Government funding for surf life saving.

On average a child dies every five weeks as a result of violence in New Zealand, and children under 12 months old make up the majority of this statistic.

Children under the age of 18 make up 20% of all violent deaths in New Zealand.

Yet less than that number of ADULT motorcyclists die (and/or are injured) on the roads ... and there is a blind panic to stop it.


Priority's ... ???

[GazzaH]

You present that as if it's an either-or choice.

They are BOTH 'priorities' along with many other issues.

[Swoop]

No Government funding for surf life saving.

Much like the ambulance service (road and air).

[AllanB]

Much like the ambulance service (road and air).

Good point Swoop and interesting given the government(s) spend a fortune on 'road safety' but nothing on the organisation that (hopefully) saves you if you have a crash.

That's just F-in mental.

[rastuscat]

Voluntary organisations partly exacerbate the problem. If St John's went on strike, permanently, the govt would likely step into the gap. As long as voluntary organisations do stuff, the govt just steps back.

It's a fine balance.

[Ruahine]

Much like the ambulance service (road and air).

Not sure about the various Air Ambulances but St John is government funded; around 70% of frontline Ambulance costs are paid through either the DHBs or ACC. It is the other 30% that St John need to raise through part-charges and charitable donations.

To date the Ambulance sector has got by on this arrangement, but as the current St John strike action suggests, a move towards full funding is long overdue.

[Ruahine]

Voluntary organisations partly exacerbate the problem. If St John's went on strike, permanently, the govt would likely step into the gap. As long as voluntary organisations do stuff, the govt just steps back.

It's a fine balance.


Exactly. Running a national Emergency service as a charity might have worked 20 years ago but not anymore.

[Blackbird]

Voluntary organisations partly exacerbate the problem. If St John's went on strike, permanently, the govt would likely step into the gap. As long as voluntary organisations do stuff, the govt just steps back.

It's a fine balance.

It's a conundrum all right! Voluntary services usually come about in the first place because of a lack of central or local government support to fill a need. These organisations get good at the voluntary work they do and then run into resource issues (often of a monetary nature). Things get difficult through their own success.

In country areas such as the Coromandel where I live, the region survives on voluntary services. No different in other rural areas. Our family is a financial supporter of some of those essential services, specifically Auckland and Waikato air ambulances, St John and Starship Hospital; simply because without them, we'd be screwed.

[russd7]

Voluntary organisations partly exacerbate the problem. If St John's went on strike, permanently, the govt would likely step into the gap. As long as voluntary organisations do stuff, the govt just steps back.

It's a fine balance.

problem is, the govt wont step in where its needed already as far as paramedic services are needed, a lot of rural type areas are already short on ambulance services. without volunteers, smaller communities miss out, if you look at the ambulance service in particular, it is becoming increasingly difficult to get volunteers to do the job, when an ambo is called people expect a full blown paramedic to turn up, lots of training for that and lots of time away from paid employment to turn out. add to that lots of crap to put up with from people who have no respect and lots of shit if things don't go quite right

as volunteer fire fighters we turn out for serious medical emergencies only, personally I would train to PHEC standard only, im not interested nor do I have the time to train to paramedic level,

[Vinz0r]

I've gone to a couple of the upskilling courses at Taupo Motorsport park that were subdidised by ACC a few years ago. The reason I went was to improve my riding, but also because we were able to use the track, which is a lot more fun than pootling around a carpark.
Bring able to bundle some fun track time with some road skill training was really awesome, and if there were more of these events at a reasonable price I'd definitely sign up for further training.

[rastuscat]

I've gone to a couple of the upskilling courses at Taupo Motorsport park that were subdidised by ACC a few years ago. The reason I went was to improve my riding, but also because we were able to use the track, which is a lot more fun than pootling around a carpark.
Bring able to bundle some fun track time with some road skill training was really awesome, and if there were more of these events at a reasonable price I'd definitely sign up for further training.

ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.

[Scubbo]

ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.

but once you learn to handle a bike at speed, the low speed stuff is much easier (except for walking pace maneuvers) in my opinion anyway --- season your brain with speed, then when you slow down your mind has a lot more "time" to process what's happening on the real road.

[Vinz0r]

ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.

For this particular event, there was quite a focus on learning how to corner safely by practicing braking into corners, leaning, and choosing the correct line. The skills obtained during these sessions transferred very nicely to the road, and it was great being able to practice them in a safer environment. I think having access to the track made the training a lot more engaging and effective.
Most of the track time was spent following an instructor around, copying lines etc, then talking about any problems and repeating to try and hone the skills. At the end of the day we had a few free sessions on the track, but most of it was spent learning and practicing.

[FJRider]

but once you learn to handle a bike at speed, the low speed stuff is much easier (except for walking pace maneuvers) in my opinion anyway --- season your brain with speed, then when you slow down your mind has a lot more "time" to process what's happening on the real road.

In reality ... speed on a closed circuit race track is completely different to speed on an open road public highway. No oncoming traffic for a start.

Perhaps ... to practice high speed riding on racetracks ... have a second other group practicing their high speed riding going in the other direction .... :2thumbsup

Who would like to be in that second group ... ?? :whistle:

[caspernz]

but once you learn to handle a bike at speed, the low speed stuff is much easier (except for walking pace maneuvers) in my opinion anyway --- season your brain with speed, then when you slow down your mind has a lot more "time" to process what's happening on the real road.

My five cents.

You can get more "time to process" by looking further ahead.
You can get more "room to move" by learning how to correctly position a bike for a given situation.
You can create a safer riding environment on public roads by the choices you make.

All the above needs to come before adding speed.

It appears the folks at ACC came to the same conclusion.

[Scubbo]

that's true if you assume your brain runs at one speed only and you can't condition it to specific tasks --- but like all things ACC, lowest common denominator is the target. I guess not everyone is up to being an apache pilot

[caspernz]

that's true if you assume your brain runs at one speed only and you can't condition it to specific tasks --- but like all things ACC, lowest common denominator is the target. I guess not everyone is up to being an apache pilot

It's not about conditioning the brain, it's about getting the basics right before adding speed. Many riders can't even pick a safe line for a corner, letting them go faster will merely see them crash at a higher speed.

Track based training has its place, I certainly enjoy it :devil2: but it has to go hand in hand with road based coaching :2thumbsup

[MarkW]

I've retired from most rider training activities now but when I was in charge of the Auckland Motorcycle Club's Rider training programme we used a number of tracks around the country for the purposes of rider training. My opinion is that it is easier and safer to teach the practicalities of cornering lines, braking, pillion riding and counter steering on a piece of tar seal where you don't have to worry about oncoming traffic, power poles, sheep and all of the other variables that occur on a piece of road. But the course needs to be focussed completely on road RIDER training and far too many such courses became road RACER training. There is a huge difference. Instructor ratios for the road rider courses that I used to run were 1 instructor to every 4 pupils and the motorcycle had to be fully road registered and up to WOF standards. And we ran on the tracks that we used in both directions because we were doing Rider training. The courses cost a fair bit of money - hiring Pukekohe for 16 students for the day was not cheap and the cost is probably now prohibitive. But when I was teaching road riding techniques it is my opinion that doing this on a piece of tarmac well away from the public was safer for everyone. Including the public.
Sadly, most track days now appear to have limited relevance to road riding and so I can understand why ACC would be reluctant to fund such events. The Auckland Motorcycle Club Track days that happened several years after my retirement were, in my opinion, NOT road rider training. They were thinly disguised road racer training.

[nzspokes]

I've retired from most rider training activities now but when I was in charge of the Auckland Motorcycle Club's Rider training programme we used a number of tracks around the country for the purposes of rider training. My opinion is that it is easier and safer to teach the practicalities of cornering lines, braking, pillion riding and counter steering on a piece of tar seal where you don't have to worry about oncoming traffic, power poles, sheep and all of the other variables that occur on a piece of road. But the course needs to be focussed completely on road RIDER training and far too many such courses became road RACER training. There is a huge difference. Instructor ratios for the road rider courses that I used to run were 1 instructor to every 4 pupils and the motorcycle had to be fully road registered and up to WOF standards. And we ran on the tracks that we used in both directions because we were doing Rider training. The courses cost a fair bit of money - hiring Pukekohe for 16 students for the day was not cheap and the cost is probably now prohibitive. But when I was teaching road riding techniques it is my opinion that doing this on a piece of tarmac well away from the public was safer for everyone. Including the public.
Sadly, most track days now appear to have limited relevance to road riding and so I can understand why ACC would be reluctant to fund such events. The Auckland Motorcycle Club Track days that happened several years after my retirement were, in my opinion, NOT road rider training. They were thinly disguised road racer training.We used to do the ART days and loved them.

Other days after those have been less than stellar.

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[Big Dog]

I hear ya Skoober, but I ask you this : How many of your mates is is acceptable to kill in road crashes? Pick a number.That depends a lot on context.
The first road death I saw up close and personal I was 13, a passenger in my mum's car.
Bumper to bumper traffic on State Highway 1, after Albany before Silverdale, before the flat top was installed... to improve safety and facilitate improved flow.

Car served slowly into oncoming traffic then speared back in to hit the left curb. Driver fell out and died.

Driver was well over 80. According to the Ambos he suffered a major stroke and his dying act was to put his car over the curb and cut the engine rather than go over cliff or hit another car.

You're never going to remove these events from life.

Life results in death %100 of the time.

Is it sad when someone we know dies on the road? Yes.
Is that compounded when that death is preventable? Yes.
Again compounded when they were being silly? Yes.

Any different to suicide?
Any different to slipping in the shower?

Perhaps aim to reduce the number of deaths relating to hold my beer type deaths?
Perhaps aim to reduce, but short of denying humans access to even cross the road there will always be road deaths.
300 seems like a good number. Led than last year.
Less than .0075 of the population.

Suicide prevention would reach more of the population 668 last year.

Sure, continue to police known contributers such as speed, dangerous driving, unsecured occupants, texting and driving, intoxicated drivers, unsafe vehicle's etc, ad nausium.
But deaths will always be a proportional cost of transporting humans.

[jellywrestler]

ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.

they also pay into that shiny side up thing where the harley riders ride round with t shirts and one had no gloves the last event i went to.
thing is their message is that no matter how good you think you are wear the gear and no matter how good you think you are you are not bullet proof, mixed message or what?

[Vinz0r]

Some interesting replies regarding the benefits of training on the track vs the road. I think some assumptions were made that this training day was about track riding rather than road riding skills.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough:

The majority of the day was road skills training based, in which we followed an experienced rider around the track to practice braking, throttle control, and taking appropriate lines. This was not done at high speed, but at normal road riding pace. The point was to improve road riding skills in a safer environment, so that if mistakes were made, the potential risks were minimised.

As I stated above, I found this very useful as it allowed us to practice skills in a safe environment, and then apply those skills effectively on the road after having practiced them on the track.

[nzspokes]

they also pay into that shiny side up thing where the harley riders ride round with t shirts and one had no gloves the last event i went to.
thing is their message is that no matter how good you think you are wear the gear and no matter how good you think you are you are not bullet proof, mixed message or what?But how can you express your freedom with gear on?

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[jellywrestler]

Some interesting replies regarding the benefits of training on the track vs the road. I think some assumptions were made that this training day was about track riding rather than road riding skills.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough:

The majority of the day was road skills training based, in which we followed an experienced rider around the track to practice braking, throttle control, and taking appropriate lines. This was not done at high speed, but at normal road riding pace. The point was to improve road riding skills in a safer environment, so that if mistakes were made, the potential risks were minimised.

As I stated above, I found this very useful as it allowed us to practice skills in a safe environment, and then apply those skills effectively on the road after having practiced them on the track.

i learn't a huge amount of bike handling skills and they became an instinct from riding on a track, i would never have survived trying to learn those on teh road as with a track nothing really changes on a corner from one lap to another giving you the chance to push things, try that on the same corner each day riding to work and see what it does to your life.
true it did increase me speed on the road a tad but i was steps ahead in confidence and safety.

[FJRider]

You present that as if it's an either-or choice.

They are BOTH 'priorities' along with many other issues.

So what is being done to stop more kids getting killed or seriously injured .... in their own home ... by their own family members ???

And (back to motorcycling) would Compulsory Graduated Rider training courses at each stage of a Motorcycle license .... being made mandatory make a difference ... ??

Is the issue with the motorcycle riders dying on the road ... lack of knowledge/skills or lack of caring about the (possible) end result ... ??

Perhaps ... the "It couldn't happen to me, I'm a good rider" mentality ... ???

People usually die because of someone else's poor decision making. It would need a bloody good training course to stop that happening. Is there one ... ???

[FJRider]

But how can you express your freedom with gear on?

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Ride naked. You would take much more care then. Others might laugh ... but ... :cool:

[caspernz]

People usually die because of someone else's poor decision making. It would need a bloody good training course to stop that happening. Is there one ... ???

That is one hell of a myth there chap.

In around a third of motorcycle fatalities there's no other vehicle involved.

In around another third the rider could have mitigated accident or severity of accident to some degree.

Laying the blame on one's own shit riding by blaming a third party, that's the core of the problem in my view :facepalm::innocent: