ACC - Born Again Riders Cassina Free [Archive]

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Murray

12th May 2018, 20:30

OK ACC have increased registration to a super ridiculous amount

Couple of points I recently have had on my mind

We now (me and wifey) pretty much register our bikes for 6 months of the year - Oct to March.

Going back on the bike in October are we Born again Riders because I sure as hell know for a month or so it takes some time to get that "feel" of the road.

Is 3-6 months off the bike enough to lose the touch??

Thanks for the comments posted on the previous thread derailed by "I am Cassina listen to me I am full of shit"

Is this counterproductive to ACC registration amount collected and Born again riders on the road?

Whats your thoughts?

FUCK OFF CASSINA!!!

george formby

13th May 2018, 11:01

I must admit to pondering what I'm going to do with a shed full of bikes which rarely get ridden. Putting rego on hold is an option but the riding can be good here even in winter and their are far fewer tourists. Smaller bike? Spend some money putting my 250 2t on the road is a tempting option but still not that cheap, rego wise, and that would only be good for fanging about, I'm kinda past that type of riding. It's a bit too frenetic and I struggle to resist temptation.:yes:

Hard to part with any of them, though. :weep:

As for getting back "in the groove" it takes a wee while. I try to find a car park and do some practice, gets the brain and body back up to speed really quick. Jumping on my trials bike does the same, re-sets the brain after a lapse.

It is a PITA that the ACC levie prompts so much consideration for multi bike ownership. A lot of bikes must end up being ridden without rego as a consequence. Kinda nullifies cheaper transport arguments and the cost of getting wrong.. Be interesting to see the stats.

nzspokes

13th May 2018, 11:21

This is something on my mind. Have 3 bikes with full rego, insurance etc.

My CBR will go on hold in 2 weeks for winter while I wonder if I really need it. Track days just cost too much.

As for the break, I would be doing some car park stuff and maybe a ride forever course. Or just get a cheap ADV bike and keep riding.

HEsch

13th May 2018, 16:29

I'm coming to the point where my car is the one likely to go on hold :woohoo:

OddDuck

13th May 2018, 16:40

tigertim20

13th May 2018, 16:54

Well... having a think about Murray's original question, ie ACC counterproductively producing crashes by their high rego fees, the answer would be right there in the crash stats. How many bikers have a prang in the first week / fortnight / month of having re registered, following a layoff period?

Personally I know I have to take things easy when riding again after a break. Even a week or two off the bike is enough to notice the difference.

I didn't think that the amount of time thats passed since the person involved last rode is recorded in any stats, so its a pointless question isnt it?

Is there actually any conclusive proof that 'born again' or 'returning' riders in that circumstance are higher represented in crashes than anyone else in crash stats? or is it just an assumption based on the average age of crashing riders being somewhere 40+?

Id have thought the cause of crashes were the same as ever on bikes, the biggest contributors being complacency (of one's own skills, road knowledge or bike condition).

Its fine saying that you take 'extra care' when first getting back after weeks / months off - but isn't that effectively an admission that after that initial period, you take less care when riding - isnt that exactly when youre most likely to fuck up?

OddDuck

13th May 2018, 17:13

I didn't think that the amount of time thats passed since the person involved last rode is recorded in any stats, so its a pointless question isnt it?

Absolutely right, it isn't. Let me try again:

Biker takes bike off rego over winter or similar
Biker re-registers bike
"whoopsie", or hopefully not.

There'll be a date on each event so that would be measureable via the stats and official records.

skippa1

13th May 2018, 17:23

Speaking as the recipient of some mighty fine ACC help, I am now glad I paid my bit. Getting it back in spades now. When self employed and when registering my bikes for over 30 years I always felt a bit of a grudge parting with that coin......now, fucken beaudy.........

tigertim20

13th May 2018, 18:52

Absolutely right, it isn't. Let me try again:

Biker takes bike off rego over winter or similar
Biker re-registers bike
"whoopsie", or hopefully not.

There'll be a date on each event so that would be measureable via the stats and official records.
Given the amount of bikes being ridden with expired / on hold rego, im not sure that the dates of rego are a fair way to measure anything either.
I know plenty who only rego in summer, but ride year round, believing (based on their own anecdotal evidence) that summer is when bikes get targetted, and theyll likely get away with it.

I see your point I just think that rego stats, given the current political state of rego costs etc, aren't likely to prove anything given they various ways many riders are trying to resist / cheat / play the system

Murray

13th May 2018, 21:13

Some really good comments (Cassina free). Nice to have a thread not disintegrating into a slugfest

riffer

14th May 2018, 09:16

Good thread guys, and a subject I've been thinking about as I recover and consider getting back to riding following my crash last September. It is interesting, the idea of putting the bike on hold for the winter months, and anecdotal evidence would suggest that the crashes start going up from November onwards until late March. But is that because there are just more riders out there, or because there's a few who aren't match fit? I know I'm looking at treating myself as a returning rider on the road, but also, I've ridden a few times since the accident already, and it didn't feel too unnatural. I'd like to see any facts about crashing and returning after a layoff.

Scubbo

14th May 2018, 09:22

ride to work everyday helps --- and hey crashing with the rego on hold you'll still get cover by ACC :killingme

HondaLad

14th May 2018, 10:03

Good reminder, just chucked my rego on hold for 5 months. Realistically I might get in one ride a month over winter, far rather keep the $215 in my pocket than add an extra $40 to each ride.

Moi

14th May 2018, 11:21

As others have said, good ideas and suggestions.

Not riding as often as I'd like, for various reasons, when I do get on the bike can feel like a novice again, that "rusty feeling", so go for a wee pootle round the local residential streets, no carpark nearby that I'd want to use, and check things like braking and using the "1, 2, 3" approach that someone mentioned. Say, twenty minutes of really concentrating on observation and positioning on quiet streets, almost as a warm-up before the main event.

However, just a thought... if you've put your bike's licence "on-hold" and then ride it like that and have an off, as has been pointed out already, ACC will sort you out. But what about your insurance - are you covered? If you damage your bike then you'll have to pay for that - tough. But what if you also damage someone's car? Hopefully their insurance will pay for that, but don't you leave yourself open to being sued by their insurance to recover their costs? Also, would you be ticketed by the police if they were called to the incident? I'm not prepared to put this to the test, so it's a hypothetical question on my part...

riffer

14th May 2018, 11:31

Despite hating the cost of the rego, I'm not going to not pay it because I don't believe in sponging off others.

I reckon I've well and truly got my money's worth in the last eight months.

Paul in NZ

14th May 2018, 12:49

We really don’t ride as much as we used to. There are a lot of reasons why that is but it just is what it is. Life is a complicated balancing act and you can’t always squeeze everything in.

When we do get to ride we are usually riding 2 up. Sadly the ST1050 is not an ideal 2 up bike as the pillion seat is insanely high and it’s odd having a pendulum swinging about on the back of the bike LOL. We are half heatedly looking for a more suitable bike but frankly we are having way too much fun tramping and riding our mountain bikes to take it too seriously.

Now we are riding less we have noticed that we are also a little less naturally able than we were. We are a little slower and much more cautious as well so I guess it balances out. The moment we don’t feel safe we will probably give it up or try another bike but for now, in answer to this thread. Yes, take time off and it does make you a bit rusty but I figure as long as you know this and ride accordingly until you get your eye in again its fine…

Swoop

14th May 2018, 15:21

However, just a thought... if you've put your bike's licence "on-hold" and then ride it like that and have an off, as has been pointed out already, ACC will sort you out. But what about your insurance - are you covered?
Talk to your insurer.

I specifically asked this question of my insurer and the reply was "DON'T rego your bike! It's a tax and doesn't affect anything. Make sure your W.o.F is valid though".

Also:
With all of the moaning over tricky Nick's Myth rego scheme when National was the government, what is the new government doing to remedy this?
Where are the protests to get the new ACC minister to correct this situation? Eh?

tigertim20

14th May 2018, 15:54

Some really good comments (Cassina free). Nice to have a thread not disintegrating into a slugfest
*Yet. :wacko:

As others have said, good ideas and suggestions.

Not riding as often as I'd like, for various reasons, when I do get on the bike can feel like a novice again, that "rusty feeling", so go for a wee pootle round the local residential streets, no carpark nearby that I'd want to use, and check things like braking and using the "1, 2, 3" approach that someone mentioned. Say, twenty minutes of really concentrating on observation and positioning on quiet streets, almost as a warm-up before the main event.

However, just a thought... if you've put your bike's licence "on-hold" and then ride it like that and have an off, as has been pointed out already, ACC will sort you out. But what about your insurance - are you covered? If you damage your bike then you'll have to pay for that - tough. But what if you also damage someone's car? Hopefully their insurance will pay for that, but don't you leave yourself open to being sued by their insurance to recover their costs? Also, would you be ticketed by the police if they were called to the incident? I'm not prepared to put this to the test, so it's a hypothetical question on my part...
My understanding, based off of outcomes occurring to people I know directly, is that in order for your insurance to turn their back, they have to show the issue actually contributed to an accident - e.g. not having a WOF doesn't mean a vehicle isnt road worthy. (also, HAVING a wof doesnt mean you are road worthy either).
If you get T-boned by a drunk driver, while observing all the road rules, whether you have a WOF or not is completely irrelevant.

Also worth noting that your insurance company's first response is not final, and you can, (and in my experience, in MOST cases you SHOULD) argue with them. Theyll try to offer as little as possible to get you to fuck off - make some noise and the cheque often has a few zeros added once they realise you arent going to be fucked around.

gone a bit off topic now, oops!

russd7

14th May 2018, 18:59

this has been covered in another thread somewhere and i cant be f**ked looking for it but it is actually illegal for insurance to be denied solely on the basis of no current vehicle license or no current wof and even if the vehicle is not technically up to warrent standard if the faults did not contribute to the incident then they must be ignored also.

as for the OP, its quite simple, understand your abilities on any given ride and ride within them, or don't

Berries

14th May 2018, 21:56

Is there actually any conclusive proof that 'born again' or 'returning' riders in that circumstance are higher represented in crashes than anyone else in crash stats? or is it just an assumption based on the average age of crashing riders being somewhere 40+?
I wonder whether the term is actually valid these days. It made sense when it was someone who gave up their old BSA or Norton in the 70's and came back to an early GSXR1100 or Fireblade 20 years later and wrapped it around a tree. Someone who gave up their early GSXR1100 or Fireblade 20 years ago and is now getting back in to it is not going to be in for as a big a surprise if you ask me. Yes, things have progressed but not by as much.

There are two reasons for this age group being involved if you ask me. First is the disposable income meaning some might be happy to drop +20K on a weekend toy, and only riding the occasional sunny weekend is not IMO going to give you the necessary skills and experience or time in the saddle to get you out of trouble when shit happens.

I have forgotten what the other reason is, probably dementia. No, hang on, it is income related again. I have never considered a motorbike as being a cheap alternative to a car. Tyres are extortionate, chains are stupid, rego is ridiculous. Bike clothing all looks wank and helmets can cost more than a holiday. You could double it all and I would still ride because I am addicted. If I was 18 again however I would look at all those costs and go and buy a car. If you could somehow see the age of everyone riding I suspect that the profile would reflect crash involvement.

It is interesting, the idea of putting the bike on hold for the winter months, and anecdotal evidence would suggest that the crashes start going up from November onwards until late March. But is that because there are just more riders out there, or because there's a few who aren't match fit?
Looked at the data today and it does show crashes going up from November to a peak in March and then dropping down again. I would imagine that the reason for this is more people doing more miles. You could include the people I mentioned above but also all year riders. I rode in to work today, it was fucking freezing and I took more care because of it. On a warm December day I might just go the long way home, and might just ride that little bit harder than I should. Likely to take it out for a fang at the weekend in the summer as well, but not so much over winter. I would have to say that I am likely to expose myself to far more risk on a warm summers day than I would in the middle of winter.

Not sure about this whole returning rider/match fit thing. It's not exactly rocket science is it? I would go so far as to say that it's a bit like riding a bike, it comes back to you fairly quickly. The senses may be numbed by being in a car for a while but you would still have been using them.

KezzaCFC

15th May 2018, 11:07

How are the ACC brackets calculated? I can only assume its based on likely hood of an accident? Higher CC = faster bike = crash.
But what about the difference between an NSR250r and an MT-07? One LAMS one not. the 700cc pays more though.

Moi

16th May 2018, 11:42

A few articles that may help:

Tips on Getting Back Into Motorcycle Riding After Winter (https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tips-on-getting-back-into-motorcycle-riding-after-winter)

Dodging The Dangers of the First Spring Ride (http://www.advpulse.com/adv-prepping/first-spring-ride-after-winter-motorcycle-storage/) - more for adventure riders

What to Watch Out for On Your First Spring Motorcycle Ride (https://rideapart.com/articles/what-to-watch-out-for-on-your-first-spring-motorcycle-ride)

8 Safety Tips for Returning Motorcycle Riders (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/8-safety-tips-for-returning-motorcycle-riders)

Yes, all with a North American flavour but they do have experience with the return after winter riders.

onearmedbandit

16th May 2018, 21:38

Certain posts have been removed from here as the thread was clearly being derailed.

Murray

16th May 2018, 21:46

Certain posts have been removed from here as the thread was clearly being derailed.

thank you for that

Murray

16th May 2018, 21:47

SaferRides

16th May 2018, 21:53

Certain posts have been removed from here as the thread was clearly being derailed.

That might explain why this thread actually makes some sense.

I was a little challenged financially last year and didn’t pay rego for about 6 months. But I know others who ride their bike all year and only pay 3 months rego, even though they can afford it.

It would be interesting to know how many bikes are registered in NZ, and how many months rego per bike is paid on average.

samgab

17th May 2018, 18:18

Is 3-6 months off the bike enough to lose the touch??

My personal experience, having had several stints of varying lengths away from riding during the course of over 25 years of riding motorbikes on the road:
I generally that find within 10-15 minutes of getting back on a motorcycle, I'm back to my previous level of comfort and control on the bike.
To borrow a phrase: It's like riding a bike...

Your mileage may vary, as you said it takes you a month or so: That hasn't been my own experience. I find the muscle memory and mindset etc return very quickly.

Jeff Sichoe

18th May 2018, 09:55

russd7

18th May 2018, 19:27

Motorcycle licenses should expire every year, and need to be renewed with the ACC levy imposed at that time.

That would increase the cost of having a motorcycle license to ~$650 a year, but the upshot would be multiple bikes in the garage without having to faff around with regos, and no increase even on the current costs if you owned just the one bike.

Also, it would mean that the rider was paying ACC regardless of which bike they happened to be riding, including bikes they don't own themselves.

But apparently that's too hard for reasons unknown.

yup, a comment like that can only come from some one with everything on their doorstep. For me and i dare say a lot of others there is the extra cost of having to travel to a main centre to sit license which means taking time off work which has a cost as well but it also means that those that put riding on hold for reasons beyond their control will end up losing their license and most likely not come back to riding if there was that extra cost of sitting a license from scratch again, why not look at ways of encouraging people in to riding and encouraging people to do rider training.
the only way to get the cost of ACC down is to lower the cost to the system.
people really need to get their heads out of the clouds

tigertim20

19th May 2018, 09:24

yup, a comment like that can only come from some one with everything on their doorstep. For me and i dare say a lot of others there is the extra cost of having to travel to a main centre to sit license which means taking time off work which has a cost as well but it also means that those that put riding on hold for reasons beyond their control will end up losing their license and most likely not come back to riding if there was that extra cost of sitting a license from scratch again, why not look at ways of encouraging people in to riding and encouraging people to do rider training.
the only way to get the cost of ACC down is to lower the cost to the system.
people really need to get their heads out of the clouds

I got the impression that he meant a fee each year for your licence to be valid, rather than a re-sit.

YellowDog

19th May 2018, 13:50

onearmedbandit

19th May 2018, 19:20

The rego dodging invalidates insurance
:

No it doesn't

caseye

19th May 2018, 19:38

No it doesn't

100% Correct.

YellowDog

20th May 2018, 18:55

No it doesn't

If your bike is stolen from your private property and you don't have a rego, that's fine and it fully covered. If my bike is on the public highway and I have no wof and or rego, then my insurance company says that I won't be covered. I phoned up and asked.

Best check your own policy's, to be sure :yes:

riffer

20th May 2018, 20:01

If your bike is stolen from your private property and you don't have a rego, that's fine and it fully covered. If my bike is on the public highway and I have no wof and or rego, then my insurance company says that I won't be covered. I phoned up and asked.

Best check your own policy's, to be sure :yes:

Better name and shame them then.

Jeff Sichoe

21st May 2018, 08:37

I got the impression that he meant a fee each year for your licence to be valid, rather than a re-sit.

yeah just the fee to re validate the license, not sitting the test again - do it online.

russd7

21st May 2018, 18:46

yeah just the fee to re validate the license, not sitting the test again - do it online.

my bad, shoulda read it better, would save me money given that i have more than one bike but would cost a lot of people more.

granstar

21st May 2018, 20:06

yeah just the fee to re validate the license, not sitting the test again - do it online.

Could work, one rider/ driver rego payment (rather than current bike and car rego) with the added licence revalidation (which should be no cost as only a puter formality to change a date once set up), should save the govt a lot of time and paper and stickers as it does with current farce, enable a yearly collect for coffers (most likely more than they currently get now with all the unrego'd bikes about, or on hold), and a chance to annually update all drivers/riders with current rode code changes (which is lacking) or driver/ rider reminders/ safety tips, a re- test if deemed necessary?
Lose your licence for being a dick then you lose the rego plus penalty, perhaps be an incentive to behave on the roads? Indeed be quite happy to pay current rego fee just once for the 7 vehicles I currently juggle about with the money grab, and on holds. My favourite bike is always the one I'm riding today, and the cost of that chosen mode of transport, is priceless.

Jeff Sichoe

22nd May 2018, 09:04

my bad, shoulda read it better, would save me money given that i have more than one bike but would cost a lot of people more.

Nah man, what i'm saying is you simply roll up the current rego system and add it to the cost of renewing your motorcycle license annually.

So, currently you pay $50 odd bucks every 5 years to extend the expiry on your full license, and $520 for a full year of rego on a 650cc + bike

Instead of those two fees, i'd suggest your MC license expire every year, and to renew it would cost you a flat $650 fee. This would cover your license fee and 'rego' on your bike/s, because the rego is then attached to you as a rider, as opposed to a specific bike.

That way, if you lend your bike to someone, you would assume they would have a license and also be paying the fee. similarly you could have 6 bikes in the garage, and even if every single one of them was out on the road, each individual rider would have also been paying into ACC as a result of the $650 annual fee. however if the bike isn't being ridden it's not costing you rego fees just to have it in the garage (as no one is riding it)

samgab

22nd May 2018, 14:57

The concept is interesting, at least you're trying to think outside of the box. But there are a few issues with your calculations.
1. You only need to renew your licence every 10 years at present.
2. It only costs $43.90 to renew, so that's only $4.39 each year averaged out.
3. Your maths was wrong there. If you're paying $519.87 per year for 601cc+ rego, you should only pay $524.26 per year to not be stung under your proposal, if you only own one 601cc+ motorbike.
4. What about those of us who intentionally choose to buy a sub-600cc bike, specifically to be in the $405.71 per year rego bracket (still ridiculously expensive, btw)? We're also disadvantaged financially even more by your proposal. And those of us in this group are often already struggling financially (If I wasn't struggling financially there's no way I'd be riding a cheap sub-600cc bike), so adding an extra annual cost burden of an extra nearly-$250 per annum cost of running a small, supposedly economical, motorbike, just won't fly.
5. Reissuing a drivers licence entails getting a new photo, which requires a trip into an AA or VTNZ, etc. This is already a hassle to do every 10 years. So it can't be done online, unless you waive the requirement for a new photo. But then as the years go by, the point of it being a form of PHOTO ID becomes less useful if the photo isn't kept up to date at least every 10 years.

I agree the current system of rolling ACC costs up into the cost of registering a motorbike or car isn't working great for many of the reasons already listed. The idea of it being "user pays" but completely ignoring users such as rugby players or bicycle riders etc, and effectively making us as motorcycle riders pay a portion of their ACC injuries. And the problem of those with multiple cars and motorbikes having to pay multiple times for the same ACC fees is a big problem.

How about something where your registration fee is adjusted depending on how many vehicles are registered under your name? So motorcycle 1 costs the same as it currently does, but motorcycle 2 costs just the rego without the ACC component, which is less than $30!!! and motorcycle 3 the same, etc. Now I realise people will take advantage of this, ie, husband registers his bike, his son's bike, his wife's bike, all under his own name to avoid them each paying the high fee for motorcycle 1 each under each of their names, instead having motorcycles 1, 2, and 3 all under his name; but I think it's still a better idea than keeping the status quo of people who legitimately own multiple bike's paying ACC multiple times. And it won't unfairly disadvantage people who only own 1 small motorbike.