Why are so many race bikes non compliant with the numbers rule?

[jellywrestler]

We have a rule book, but a lot of riders simply don't even bother to look at it just put numbers on however they feel like, why? don't they get that numbers actually are very important for the sport, safety etc?

[Voltaire]

We have a rule book, but a lot of riders simply don't even bother to look at it just put numbers on however they feel like, why? don't they get that numbers actually are very important for the sport, safety etc?

Has come up in NZCMRR meetings as an issue for safety due to need for track personal being able to identify bikes/riders for things like

mechanical issues required rider to see black flag and number.

There was talk of not letting non compliant bikes on the track and directing them to a person supplying numbers, but I'm not sure if that was

ever enforced.

Also nice for the spectators who may have paid money for entry and a program to know who is who.

With the club looking hard at ......wait for it.....Transponders...( gasp) due to volume and speed of bikes you have to wonder if it will happen.

[jellywrestler]

Has come up in NZCMRR meetings as an issue for safety due to need for track personal being able to identify bikes/riders for things like

mechanical issues required rider to see black flag and number.

There was talk of not letting non compliant bikes on the track and directing them to a person supplying numbers, but I'm not sure if that was

ever enforced.

Also nice for the spectators who may have paid money for entry and a program to know who is who.

With the club looking hard at ......wait for it.....Transponders...( gasp) due to volume and speed of bikes you have to wonder if it will happen.

classics are better than anyone else, still a few that need parking until they sort it.
we had some at the nationals last year with just two numbers, that is just taking the piss even letting them onto the track in my opinion

[Grumph]

classics are better than anyone else, still a few that need parking until they sort it.
we had some at the nationals last year with just two numbers, that is just taking the piss even letting them onto the track in my opinion

As numbers can be (loosely) described as safety equipment, they should be checked at scrutineering.

[rustys]

Hi Spyda,
we were talking about this with Merv the other night, there is a shit load of riders/racers that don't or can't be bothered keeping up and following the changes to the rule book.

Perhaps the Clubs running race events need to tighten this problem up, i do know that from time to time this is mentioned at riders brief, the Vic Club is now carrying a range of specified size numbers at all meetings to issue (for sale ) to riders who do not have the appropriate size or even no numbers at all, (yes we have had bikes turn up to a race event, with no number board at all, so they are NOT reading the rules)

Classic bikes seem to be fine you can stick or adapt a good size type of number board on both sides rear and in the front of the bike, so know excuse, but the more modern type bikes with fancy fairings say SSP300, KTMs, etc are now starting to be a bit of an issue trying to get the specified size numberboard somewhere on the side of the fairing. Also trying to place a number both sides of the tale piece to me is just a waste of time as these also are getting smaller in design and size, i prefer to see a decent number placed on the sides of the main fairing.

Also we are seeing Number boards being covered in stickers these days which also makes it harder for guys like yourself to read, This fancy graphic lettering should also be stomped on to.

Just my two bobs worth mate.

[scott411]

i would say as a basic guess,

the club guys that are taking time out of there day and doing the tech checks are unwilling to get into a argument by excluding a bike over numbers, as the first time it happens the first answer will be that they have been running these numbers for years,


and the riders just don't care enough, since have never been excluded for having the wrong size numbers, and think that since transponders record the results most of the time it does not matter,

its not just a road race thing, mx has the same issues, but the back numbers are the biggest non complaint issue their, about 5 years ago a steward started fining riders for not running them at the nationals, it did not go down well,

[Grumph]

i would say as a basic guess,

the club guys that are taking time out of there day and doing the tech checks are unwilling to get into a argument by excluding a bike over numbers, as the first time it happens the first answer will be that they have been running these numbers for years,


and the riders just don't care enough, since have never been excluded for having the wrong size numbers, and think that since transponders record the results most of the time it does not matter,

its not just a road race thing, mx has the same issues, but the back numbers are the biggest non complaint issue their, about 5 years ago a steward started fining riders for not running them at the nationals, it did not go down well,

Put them on notice with a "comply by next meeting" note in their log book. If it was caliper bolt or sump bung wiring, it's be automatic fail at scrutineering.

Fuck, I failed a Britten at a NZGP scrutineering - where are the scrutineers with balls ?

[jellywrestler]

i would say as a basic guess,

the club guys that are taking time out of there day and doing the tech checks are unwilling to get into a argument by excluding a bike over numbers, as the first time it happens the first answer will be that they have been running these numbers for years,


and the riders just don't care enough, since have never been excluded for having the wrong size numbers, and think that since transponders record the results most of the time it does not matter,

its not just a road race thing, mx has the same issues, but the back numbers are the biggest non complaint issue their, about 5 years ago a steward started fining riders for not running them at the nationals, it did not go down well,

nail on the head. and if MNZ can't reel in the little issues then they can't handle the big ones....

[jellywrestler]

Put them on notice with a "comply by next meeting" note in their log book. If it was caliper bolt or sump bung wiring, it's be automatic fail at scrutineering.

Fuck, I failed a Britten at a NZGP scrutineering - where are the scrutineers with balls ? sticking the scrutineering stickers to the number boards, in contradiction to the rulebook that says no stickers on them....

[Voltaire]

Put them on notice with a "comply by next meeting" note in their log book. If it was caliper bolt or sump bung wiring, it's be automatic fail at scrutineering.

Fuck, I failed a Britten at a NZGP scrutineering - where are the scrutineers with balls ?

I think the word 'scrutineering' has been replaced by "inspection" as it implies too much. ( or is that just the classics?, which by the way MNZ

other than taking your money are not particularly interested in)

[scott411]

where do you place it in the list of safety ?

before or after valve caps, which i have had a couple of arguments about before, as i don't put mine on till i have set the pressure for races? esp the day before a race when the weather is changeable,

[scott411]

Put them on notice with a "comply by next meeting" note in their log book. If it was caliper bolt or sump bung wiring, it's be automatic fail at scrutineering.

Fuck, I failed a Britten at a NZGP scrutineering - where are the scrutineers with balls ?

probably gone off to do something else with their weekends as they got over the riders complaining at the them for enforcing stuff they did not see as important,

[jellywrestler]

where do you place it in the list of safety ?

vital, last weekend i flagmarshalled at the hairpin at manfeild, one bike was blowing shit out of it, absolutely no number on one side of the bike, took several laps to identify it before calling it in, didn't help that there were two number 17's in the event but they were two different styles. Additionally, the marshalls are told the last bike through each race, so they need to confirm that that bike is through, how do you do that when some chimp has letterbox numbers on their bike?

[AllanB]

Bloody rules. As I age there appears to me more people and organisations eager to impose additional rules on what I can and can not do anymore.

FFS even a nice rolling burnout is considered a sustained loss of traction.

And all that silly software at work they are spending tens of thousands on that they want us to spend hours and hours filling out so they can ask why the companies productivity is lower .......... it's because before your daft software we were doing ACTUAL WORK that derived a income!

Tomorrow I will ensure at least five 'rules' are broken.

[jellywrestler]

Bloody rules. As I age there appears to me more people and organisations eager to impose additional rules on what I can and can not do anymore.


these rules have barely changed in the last thirty years, same deal , three numbers as it was then

[jasonu]

Fuck, I failed a Britten at a NZGP scrutineering

What for????

[Grumph]

What for????

For good reason. The steering damper was the steering limit stops.

When things had quietened down, Broz - who'd made the damper - came and thanked me. The team had known it was wrong but John wouldn't let them change it. They were back pretty quick from the workshop. I suspect they'd had proper stops ready made and waiting.

[scott411]

For good reason. The steering damper was the steering limit stops.

When things had quietened down, Broz - who'd made the damper - came and thanked me. The team had known it was wrong but John wouldn't let them change it. They were back pretty quick from the workshop. I suspect they'd had proper stops ready made and waiting.

good on ya, the rules should be the same for everyone,
i have heard a very senior steward at the time telling me the story about telling the rider (Stroud from memory) to short shift near the sound meter so it would not set it off,

[scott411]

vital, last weekend i flagmarshalled at the hairpin at manfeild, one bike was blowing shit out of it, absolutely no number on one side of the bike, took several laps to identify it before calling it in, didn't help that there were two number 17's in the event but they were two different styles. Additionally, the marshalls are told the last bike through each race, so they need to confirm that that bike is through, how do you do that when some chimp has letterbox numbers on their bike?

i agree with you, why do you think the club officials don't enforce it?

and the doubling up on numbers is also rampant in both sides of the sport, with lap timing systems being able to score them now its another thing that is just not cared about

[Grumph]

i agree with you, why do you think the club officials don't enforce it?

Generational change in the guys willing to act as officials. And an unpleasant readiness on the part of riders to argue the toss about rules they've never read....

[rustys]

Generational change in the guys willing to act as officials. And an unpleasant readiness on the part of riders to argue the toss about rules they've never read....

Hit the nail on the head there Grumph.

Problem is racing today is about a numbers game, and the Clubs are not wanting to turn riders away or to loose out on riders giving the sport away, and getting shitty about all the bloody rules that are being enforced these days and riders trying to DEFINE them.

It all comes back to the riders reading the dam rules and understanding them, education. Very hard for some though:brick:.

As Spyda said the numbers rule has not been changed for a long time, only some of the background colours have, pretty simple really.

[roogazza]

Generational change in the guys willing to act as officials. And an unpleasant readiness on the part of riders to argue the toss about rules they've never read....

yes Grump, never had this crap in ACU days.
Used to be if you failed at scrutineering you were sent away to fix whatever problem there was.
(lol first time I made numbers up, I used a pot lid for the front. Then of course further on we had huge boards ! That was the rules.) :yawn:

[WALRUS]

We get some interesting ones over here. Plenty of gaffatape numbers on the front of bikes and/or no numbers on the tails or sides.

Apparently we've got a colour system like in the MNZ Supp. Regs but I've not seen anyone actually use/pay attention to it.

I don't know why people would find it hard to follow these guidelines? They're pretty straight forward..

https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/manual-of-motorcycle-sport/chapter-10---motorcycles-technical-(road).pdf?sfvrsn=2

The Motorcycling Australia regs are pretty much the same. It's not that hard

[nodrog]

Isn't it who has the biggest chequebook can do what they want?

[Grumph]

Isn't it who has the biggest chequebook can do what they want?

That doesn't always work either, LOL. I failed Scott Buckley's TZ when he tried to put it through on it's wets - without brake discs.
I explained quite gently (for me...) that I did indeed want to see if he had discs for it....And fitted please.

It's the guys you can see as they come up the line with the attitude...You can read the body language and know that their bike will have something wrong.
You can also see that they're going to argue....

But some of the current scrutineers need waking up too. A customer bike was failed on the caliper lockwiring. This scrutineer wanted to insist on it being done a certain way. He contended it was to stop the fastener coming undone. I contended it was to show when it had moved....How can a 1mm piece of stainless wire retain a bolt done up to 18 ft/lb torque when it's breaking strain is about 1/4 that ? A lot of my lockwiring now is copper wire, LOL.

[nodrog]

That doesn't always work either, LOL. I failed Scott Buckley's TZ when he tried to put it through on it's wets - without brake discs.
I explained quite gently (for me...) that I did indeed want to see if he had discs for it....And fitted please.

It's the guys you can see as they come up the line with the attitude...You can read the body language and know that their bike will have something wrong.
You can also see that they're going to argue....

But some of the current scrutineers need waking up too. A customer bike was failed on the caliper lockwiring. This scrutineer wanted to insist on it being done a certain way. He contended it was to stop the fastener coming undone. I contended it was to show when it had moved....How can a 1mm piece of stainless wire retain a bolt done up to 18 ft/lb torque when it's breaking strain is about 1/4 that ? A lot of my lockwiring now is copper wire, LOL.

I've had the lockwire argument with quite alot of people. It does no more than marking the bolts with a white pen.

If a bolt is done up correctly it shouldn't come undone.

I've lost count of all the unwired sump plugs I see all over the road on the way to work.......

[Kickaha]

That doesn't always work either, LOL. I failed Scott Buckley's TZ when he tried to put it through on it's wets - without brake discs.
I explained quite gently (for me...) that I did indeed want to see if he had discs for it....And fitted please.


Should have just pumped the front brake master cylinder till the pistons fell out and then told him to fix his brakes

[malcy25]

But some of the current scrutineers need waking up too. A customer bike was failed on the caliper lockwiring. This scrutineer wanted to insist on it being done a certain way. He contended it was to stop the fastener coming undone. I contended it was to show when it had moved....How can a 1mm piece of stainless wire retain a bolt done up to 18 ft/lb torque when it's breaking strain is about 1/4 that ? A lot of my lockwiring now is copper wire, LOL.

I disassembled a TZ once and most bolts were loose, but wired. The alloy had fretted under the bolts in a number of places they had been in place so long, but never retorqued or checked...I dunno how they hadn't moved , especially is it was galv gardening wire....The wire was just stopping the bolt unwinding further and jumping over board and many of the actual items were holding on via the shear strength of the bolt, not the clamping force the bolt s supposed to create. The prior owner was assuming that it was wired, it would be fine....the bike probably jangled when it ran it was so loose!

[jato]

When you are half way to aus at 30,000 feet be comforted that there is a lot of nice tidy lockwiring stopping things jiggling loose and falling off the engines and wings . . .

[CHOPPA]

We have a rule book, but a lot of riders simply don't even bother to look at it just put numbers on however they feel like, why? don't they get that numbers actually are very important for the sport, safety etc?

Show me a picture of a bike you consider has legal numbers as an example

[Kickaha]

Spyda when MNZ allow an entire class to have non complying numbers then I'd be pointing the finger at them, they didn't care enough about there own rules to make sure they are followed

[jellywrestler]

Show me a picture of a bike you consider has legal numbers as an example

there's plenty of people doing it right, but it's the ones who don't even pick up the rule book and try at all, like two numbers for a start that are just taking the piss. What entertains me the most Sloan is the quality of work from signwriters. Surely they should be asking what the rules are for a competition class, that's not rocket science, or, does the signwriters association have links to these, it is their job after all...
mind you judging with the workmanship i come across almost on a daily basis it's par for the course in this country nowadays.

here's a couple of shots taken over the last month

[rustys]

:shit: 71 !!! you should know better .

[Kickaha]

Surely they should be asking what the rules are for a competition class

Why?
They do the job the customer requests, if the customer doesn't give them the correct info it's not the signwriters fault or his job to hunt for it

[jellywrestler]

Why?
They do the job the customer requests, if the customer doesn't give them the correct info it's not the signwriters fault or his job to hunt for it

i tend to disagree with you to a certain extent.
i'm a tradesman, people come to me for my knowledge on product, applications, durability, sizing, adherance to the laws of the land etc, i'd expect a signwriter to at least ask the question, whether the customer wants to abide by them or not is the next step.

[CHOPPA]

Neither of those are compliant Spyda. Try again

[sugilite]

As much as I hate to admit the Aussies might have something right, take a page out of their book, they are tough bastards - don't comply, put your bike on the trailer and fuck off home.
That need only be done once to all non compliants at a single meeting and they would quick smart be bought into line.

[Grumph]

As much as I hate to admit the Aussies might have something right, take a page out of their book, they are tough bastards - don't comply, put your bike on the trailer and fuck off home.
That need only be done once to all non compliants at a single meeting and they would quick smart be bought into line.

You'd need to pre- advertise that was going to happen. And state firmly that no refunds of pre-paid entries would be made.....

How many clubs in NZ have the balls for that ? And when someone protests and takes it to MNZ ? Anyone think they'd back you up ?

[jellywrestler]

You'd need to pre- advertise that was going to happen. And state firmly that no refunds of pre-paid entries would be made.....

How many clubs in NZ have the balls for that ? And when someone protests and takes it to MNZ ? Anyone think they'd back you up ?

10.2a Number digits to be of a BOLD type, and as large as practicable – 140mm
MINIMUM height, and must be separate (i.e. not overlapping) legibility of
numbers to be decided by the Technical Steward – if they are NOT legible
from 20mtrs ride by, rider will be directed to re-do the number in a legible,
legal form, and will not compete until his/her numbers comply.

[jellywrestler]

Neither of those are compliant Spyda. Try again

never said they were, one is diabolical , the other shows there is on a modern superbike the real estate to comply easily. Riders expect to turn up at as meeting and the club/organisation has the tools to run the meeting, why don't they supply the tools for the organisation to run it for them, by tools i mean numbers that are workable.

[CHOPPA]

never said they were, one is diabolical , the other shows there is on a modern superbike the real estate to comply easily. Riders expect to turn up at as meeting and the club/organisation has the tools to run the meeting, why don't they supply the tools for the organisation to run it for them, by tools i mean numbers that are workable.

I asked you to show me some examples of numbers on bikes that fully comply

[Grumph]

I asked you to show me some examples of numbers on bikes that fully comply

Why ? Are you gathering material for a rule change ? If I cared to, I could take pics of compliant numbers at any Classic or Post Classic meeting.
AFAIK, there's nothing stopping you from adding number boards.

[nodrog]

I'm guessing Chop is just being difficult because he (along with the rest of us youngsters), knows that you cannot fit the mininum sized required number board shapes to the oem bodywork of a modern sports bike.

Somebody needs to supply a remit for a rule change (not me, i couldnt give a fuck, there's plenty of room on my sidecar), or just fit old school number boards like the old bloke who used to race the k6 gsxr600 did.

[Michael Moore]

It all comes back to the riders reading the dam rules and understanding them, education. Very hard for some though:brick:.

Doesn't every rider get a new copy of the rule book every year when they renew their license? The first job of a racer is to read the rules. You can't apply them (or figure out a clever but legal way to get around them) if you don't read them.

If you are given a copy of the rule book, you've no one to blame when you are sent back to your pits from the tech inspection because you/your bike does not comply with the rules. It doesn't matter if you didn't bother to read it or you just decided you were too important to have to follow the rules, it is your problem.

I find it pretty annoying to go to the effort of complying with what are at times somewhat dumb rules and then see someone on the track that didn't bother and the tech inspectors let them through anyway. If you don't like a rule, submit a rule proposal and try to get it changed. But until it is changed you need to follow the rules like everyone else.

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

Transponders have made numbers more or less obsolete when it comes to the MNZ rules relating to legibility.
Bikes such as the R1 and gizzer dont have the real estate to fit legal sized numbers.
https://cloud.yamahamotorsports.com/library/img.jpg?id=5a0342342a0ab62a4c816d48&w=840http://www.yoshimura-rd.com/images/11182PP720_A_L.jpg
http://thai.webike.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/cbr.png
Moto GP bies dont even have rear numbers now hence the tiny tails so fashionable atm

[Grumph]

Transponders have made numbers more or less obsolete when it comes to the MNZ rules relating to legibility.
Bikes such as the R1 and gizzer dont have the real estate to fit legal sized numbers.]

While that is true as far as lapscoring goes, the game isn't just for the participants. The paying public have the right to know who's doing what on track.
Greymouth for example, makes sure to have a good commentator. That costs - accomodation and expenses. If he can't do his job it's money wasted.
If he can't tell the spectators who's leading/second/fallen off/being a dick they lose out too. Unhappy spectators don't come back.

Many, many bikes over the years haven't had room for numbers on seats or tail units. Number boards work.

[husaberg]

While that is true as far as lapscoring goes, the game isn't just for the participants. The paying public have the right to know who's doing what on track.
Greymouth for example, makes sure to have a good commentator. That costs - accomodation and expenses. If he can't do his job it's money wasted.
If he can't tell the spectators who's leading/second/fallen off/being a dick they lose out too. Unhappy spectators don't come back.

Many, many bikes over the years haven't had room for numbers on seats or tail units. Number boards work.

i realise that was Jelly's angle and I appreciate that, but the rules were not put in place for spectators or Commentators.
Number boards unless they are period like the classics look Naff.
The most common thing i used to see missed by the scrutineers was the rear MC relying on the circlip as a positive stop.
I got failed on not having a return spring on the rear set pedal of my rear drum braked bike.
I pointed out the return spring was on the drum rod only to be told what if that failed.
I put on a rubber spring off an old inner to be compliant with this ruling. I have later seen this used on GP bikes.
it didnt seem worth starting an argument I resisted the urge to i point out if rear spring broke i would have not rear brake anyway.
My bikes always had a positive stop on the rear in the shape of a L bracket but plenty dont.


10.7 All vehicles must be fitted with an efficient brake on both front and rear
wheels. Any vehicle using a hydraulic type brake master cylinder must
have a brake pedal return stop fitted so that the brake pedal linkage does
not depend on the cylinder circlip to act as a stop.

[WALRUS]

Moto GP bies dont even have rear numbers now hence the tiny tails so fashionable atm

You can still number up the side of the machine if there isn't enough space on the back, can you not?

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/-/media/default-website/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2016/november/for-sale-exguy-martin-superbike-three-not-so-careful-owners.ashx?h=444&w=740&la=en&hash=284689E9AE276733F86FE5F94B4C3E889BF55C67

Correct me if I'm wrong but the rule is about having a number clearly visible from the front and each side left and right. It doesn't specify it has to be on the tail, does it?

[nodrog]

Doesn't every rider get a new copy of the rule book every year when they renew their license?

No.

___________

[husaberg]

You can still number up the side of the machine if there isn't enough space on the back, can you not?

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/-/media/default-website/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2016/november/for-sale-exguy-martin-superbike-three-not-so-careful-owners.ashx?h=444&w=740&la=en&hash=284689E9AE276733F86FE5F94B4C3E889BF55C67

Correct me if I'm wrong but the rule is about having a number clearly visible from the front and each side left and right. It doesn't specify it has to be on the tail, does it?
Yip but he only has a single rather then triple digit put it has to be visible with the rider in position.

Sides: One either side of the motorcycle in a position clearly visible when the rider (and passenger for sidecars) is seated in their usual riding position
that one would fail also on the size of the number board

Size: Minimum width 285mm, minimum height 235mm,
plus the letters are not bold....

[malcy25]

My 2 cents worth

Rule book is online - hard copies can be bought but is a pain in the arse, people don't update, carry an old book, don't carry it etc. Online is good. But people actually need to read it. I see stuff across many classes, when people are spending $1000's and don't even read their specific technical rules.....

I did a rule change submission years ago now (early 2000's I think) that freed the need for the side numbers to be behind the rider, to anywhere on the side of the bike, as long as they visible with the rider seated. Since that time real estate has shrunk considerably and the rules have been modded again a couple of times, but not the size.

A few years ago SOME classes IIRC allowed within the their appendix, a single number on the top of the seat unit and one on the front. But only a handful. This allowance seemed to disappear last year. Being a good boy, before I headed off the for the SI Nationals rounds last year, I sat down and checked a few things and found these appendix levels rules had gone, meaning we were back to three numbers. (and my bike was not compliant).

So I cut a sheet of contact out to the "regulation size" and sat next to my bike.....this is how big it is see the old Ninja below. Massive....arguably, the rule could be amended to make sure they are smaller and more consistent with machinery - BUT still need to be clear and legible as flaggies and other officials still need to see them, irrespective of transponders.

I saw quite a few hashed up quick fixes at the nats....that were almost unreadable through the NZSBK series....none were within the size ruies.....

[husaberg]

My 2 cents worth

Rule book is online - hard copies can be bought but is a pain in the arse, people don't update, carry an old book, don't carry it etc. Online is good. But people actually need to read it. I see stuff across many classes, when people are spending $1000's and don't even read their specific technical rules.....

I did a rule change submission years ago now (early 2000's I think) that freed the need for the side numbers to be behind the rider, to anywhere on the side of the bike, as long as they visible with the rider seated. Since that time real estate has shrunk considerably and the rules have been modded again a couple of times.

A few years ago SOME classes IIRC allowed within the their appendix, a single number on the top of the seat unit and one on the front. But only a handful. This allowance seemed to disappear last year. Being a good boy, before I headed off the for the SI Nationals rounds last year, I sat down and checked a few things and found these appendix levels rules had gone, meaning we were back to three numbers. (and my bike was not compliant).

So I cut a sheet of contact out to the "regulation size" and sat next to my bike.....this is how big it is see the old Ninja below. Massive....arguably, the rule could be amended to make sure they are smaller and more consistent with machinery - BUT still need to be clear and legible as flaggies and other officials still need to see them, irrespective of transponders.

I saw quite a few hashed up quick fixes at the nats....that were almost unreadable through the NZSBK series....none were within the size ruies.....
Not nit picking
But would not even that front number fail the letter of the law as written as its more than 30 degrees from Vertical? it looks 45 degrees

Front: Facing forwards, with not more than 30 degrees forwards from vertical.
I wondered when the rearward of the rider seated was removed. thanks for that....

[malcy25]

Not nit picking
But would not even that front number fail the letter of the law as written as its more than 30 degrees from Vertical? it looks 45 degrees

Incorrect!

The rule says not more than 30 degrees FORWARD of vertical......it's BACK from vertical and there is NO BACK angle limit.....

(thou sizewise, it is too small....)

[husaberg]

Incorrect!

The rule says not more than 30 degrees FORWARD of vertical......it's BACK from vertical and there is NO BACK angle limit.....
Cheers i missed that....Typical MNZ only half a rule.
I used to make my front number boards out of 5 or 25 litre plastic oil or chemical containers as they had a wrap arround curve for the forks came in the right colours as well no good for a fairing.
sides were always on contact with a clear clover if i was feeling extravagant.

[malcy25]

Cheers i missed that....Typical MNZ only half a rule.

No, I think it works. Many modern bikes the front may be constructed in a way, where it bodywork may be more than 30 degrees rearward, yet the numbers could be still be very readable. Where as 30 degrees forward could be very unreadable as they are facing the ground.

[jellywrestler]

Moto GP bikes dont even have rear numbers now hence the tiny tails so fashionable atm Moto GP is a different animal, people don't pop in to watch one race every year or so, they tune in week in week out. They have big screens and branding for sale so you have or recognise colours/your favourite bike, multiple split lap timing systems, zoom in cameras etc etc.




What we have here is 3800 people last year who purchased a program for the suzuki series to help them enjoy their day at the races, and people that don't think they, their sponsors customers and families in some cases, deserve to recognise whose who, and who the commentators are talking about.

[jellywrestler]

i realise that was Jelly's angle and I appreciate that, but the rules were not put in place for spectators or Commentators.

can you eleborate please?, if transponders are the be all and end all then why do they even bother with numbers at all?

[jellywrestler]

Yip but he only has a single rather then triple digit put it has to be visible with the rider in position.

we don't need triple digits in this country, there's not enough bikes in any single class to require them, either or, there's no shortage of real estate to put numbers on this bike

[jellywrestler]

Transponders have made numbers more or less obsolete when it comes to the MNZ rules relating to legibility.
Bikes such as the R1 and gizzer dont have the real estate to fit legal sized numbers.
https://cloud.yamahamotorsports.com/library/img.jpg?id=5a0342342a0ab62a4c816d48&w=840http://www.yoshimura-rd.com/images/11182PP720_A_L.jpg
http://thai.webike.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/cbr.png

all of these models have the room to put legal size numbers on them, remember that they are running catchtray belly pans, they may not be able to have rulebook perfect background panels but I do think the Rideby Clause takes care of that, and common sense.
I'll put my hand up to say that it's pretty hard on a number of models to get every detail of the rule on all bikes, but is that any reason to ditch every thing into the 'it's too hard basket'? or the logic of a twelve year old?

if the flaggies turned up with mismatching, undersize, varying coloured flags for the riders to adhere to there'd be a hell of a stink wouldn't there?

[scott411]

can you eleborate please?, if transponders are the be all and end all then why do they even bother with numbers at all?

transponders only do the lap scoring, if a bike i leaking fluids on the other side of the track how is a corner worker ment to identify the bike to tell the officals to black flag him,

also, the transponder only updates at the finish line, riders change positions more often than that, so the commentator needs to be able to tell whos who,

[malcy25]

all of these models have the room to put legal size numbers on them, remember that they are running catchtray belly pans, they may not be able to have rulebook perfect background panels but I do think the Rideby Clause takes care of that, and common sense.
I'll put my hand up to say that it's pretty hard on a number of models to get every detail of the rule on all bikes, but is that any reason to ditch every thing into the 'it's too hard basket'? or the logic of a twelve year old?



Agree - thus my rhetorical question hypothesising that it may be time to change the panel size (but continue to pursue readability requirements)

[husaberg]

can you eleborate please?, if transponders are the be all and end all then why do they even bother with numbers at all?
Well I thought you were looking at it from the angle of commentating?
My thought are the numbers were originally there to reconise the individual bikes for lap scoring.


we don't need triple digits in this country, there's not enough bikes in any single class to require them, either or, there's no shortage of real estate to put numbers on this bike
MNZ doesn't asign numbers by class, last time i looked anyway it was by rider, pretty sure there is more than 100 riders in NZ not to mention day licences getting a number below 100 for the street racing was always hard.

[Grumph]

Well I thought you were lloking at it from the angle of commentating?
My thought are the numbers were originally there to reconise the individual bikes for lap scoring.

Why then do racehorses carry numbers on the seat cloths ? Answer - it's a spectator sport...

Riders must realise that they're in an entertainment based sport. Around which, the spectators requirements should be given weight.
If, for instance, Choppa wants to enlarge his fan base, his bike should be immediately recognisable. Now from what I remember, it looks just like any other GSXR1000 - so his riding number becomes the identifier....

Husa, I found it ironic that you quoted the brake pedal stop rule.....I wrote it, LOL.

[eldog]

Why then do racehorses carry numbers on the seat cloths ? Answer - it's a spectator sport...

Riders must realise that they're in an entertainment based sport. Around which, the spectators requirements should be given weight.
If, for instance, Choppa wants to enlarge his fan base, his bike should be immediately recognisable. Now from what I remember, it looks just like any other GSXR1000 - so his riding number becomes the identifier.....

how true, I went to the Paeroa races this year, I could tell who was who, but after a few heats, I could recognize several different bikes and riding styles etc.
it certainly would have helped if I could have figured out any 'persons of interest.

But it didn't matter, I still had a good time and a great position to see.

I can see how difficult it is for people to identify individuals with the fleeting glimpses as they pass.

[jellywrestler]

Well I thought you were looking at it from the angle of commentating?
My thought are the numbers were originally there to reconise the individual bikes for lap scoring.


MNZ doesn't asign numbers by class, last time i looked anyway it was by rider, pretty sure there is more than 100 riders in NZ not to mention day licences getting a number below 100 for the street racing was always hard.

MNZ only assigns numbers per class, no class has 99 or more riders.
https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2018-19-rr.pdf?sfvrsn=2

from a commentators point of view the numbers are of use, but in most cases on the track not really, usually the track fence is in the way and the start finish spot where the commentators are is just too fast, elsewhere on the track binoculars are too cumbersome to use as they take a while to get to where you want to be and this effects fluency so numbers on the move are a minor part of my game. For me when the bikes are on the dummy grid my brain locks in whose who, if i have to fuck around with grid sheets and double check colours it's shit, if the numbers are clear, its' better, it's a time thing.
Grumph hit the nail on the head, it's a spectator sport, people need to feel value anywhere they go, not being able to recognise whose out there must have an impact on that especially when the commentator is trying to tell you something.
if you think the numbers are not relevant, try a day without commentary and see how much fun that is.
three weeks ago i flaggied at manfieild, a bike was throwing shit out, the management needed to be aware of it, it had a plain white number board on the side i was watching, took three fucking laps for me to sort it, next time that sort of shit could simply kill or maim someone.

[gonzo_akl]

Why then do racehorses carry numbers on the seat cloths ? Answer - it's a spectator sport...

Riders must realise that they're in an entertainment based sport. Around which, the spectators requirements should be given weight.
If, for instance, Choppa wants to enlarge his fan base, his bike should be immediately recognisable. Now from what I remember, it looks just like any other GSXR1000 - so his riding number becomes the identifier....



Couldn't agree more, I'm not actively involved in the motorcycle racing scene having never done it but I do like to attend the race meets such as the NZSBK meetings in Auckland, but it is really difficult to follow what is going on for anyone but the high profile riders. A combination of very average sound system and the bikes looking similar, decent numbers on the bikes would be a huge step forward.

but i'm getting older and my eyesight ain't what it used to be.

[jellywrestler]

If, for instance, Choppa wants to enlarge his fan base, his bike should be immediately recognisable. Now from what I remember, it looks just like any other GSXR1000 - so his riding number becomes the identifier....

Choppas one of the harder ones, while his colours are usually distinctive he swaps helmets and leathers often and it takes time for me to pick up on that.

[husaberg]

Why then do racehorses carry numbers on the seat cloths ? Answer - it's a spectator sport...

Riders must realise that they're in an entertainment based sport. Around which, the spectators requirements should be given weight.
If, for instance, Choppa wants to enlarge his fan base, his bike should be immediately recognisable. Now from what I remember, it looks just like any other GSXR1000 - so his riding number becomes the identifier....

Husa, I found it ironic that you quoted the brake pedal stop rule.....I wrote it, LOL.
Horse dont get a choice in racing or attire and its about the betting,which is why its a spectator sport, in Racing motorbike riders pay for the privilege of racing not for any worthwhile money in most instances. horse racing is also not moving with any technology they don't even use AB as it all about protecting a few studs.
Tell choppa to paint it pink. or rainbow stripes if he wants to be reconised. it would make more sense than a number.
Nothing wrong with the rule positive stop rule, it makes sense, but its often missed, but saying a drum braked bike needs two strings in my mind does not.


MNZ only assigns numbers per class, no class has 99 or more riders.
https://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2018-19-rr.pdf?sfvrsn=2

from a commentators point of view the numbers are of use, but in most cases on the track not really, usually the track fence is in the way and the start finish spot where the commentators are is just too fast, elsewhere on the track binoculars are too cumbersome to use as they take a while to get to where you want to be and this effects fluency so numbers on the move are a minor part of my game. For me when the bikes are on the dummy grid my brain locks in whose who, if i have to fuck around with grid sheets and double check colours it's shit, if the numbers are clear, its' better, it's a time thing.
Grumph hit the nail on the head, it's a spectator sport, people need to feel value anywhere they go, not being able to recognise whose out there must have an impact on that especially when the commentator is trying to tell you something.
if you think the numbers are not relevant, try a day without commentary and see how much fun that is.
three weeks ago i flaggied at manfieild, a bike was throwing shit out, the management needed to be aware of it, it had a plain white number board on the side i was watching, took three fucking laps for me to sort it, next time that sort of shit could simply kill or maim someone.
Shit that a woeful number isn't it. sign of the times. But it used to be by rider.
I dont think there was even a co-entered name in more than one class their on that list either.
Greymouth still gets close to a hundred entries though only one number per rider afaik.
No need to worry about the commentating there seeing the numbers as they only see two small parts of the track at any one time.
I have been to plenty of meetings without commentary i survived i dont go for the commentary.
No offense to you intended.
The way i see it people would stil race without specators by if there was no racing there would be no racing spectators.
there are exceptions of course the street circuits would not run without spectators.
But go to a club meet there is few spectators that are not friends or family its the same for karts. or most MX club meets.
Motorcycling is not a big sport esp when you consider how much the poms payed for a goal keeper the other day, over 100 million?

[Grumph]

To the best of my knowledge, all the NZ circuits have at least two hire rates. Generally, if you're charging admission, it's a higher rate - sometimes double.
Club days are not promoted to attract spectators hence don't charge at the gate so as to get a lower cost of hire...

But the promoted meetings start with a higher base cost. So you must attract and entertain spectators. I personally didn't like what was done at the Hampton Downs round of the Nationals last season - but I can see why it was done....
Entertaining spectators with racing starts with a good - preferably free - programme. Then follows the ability to identify the riders being talked about by (hopefully) a good commentator.

If identifiable numbers become a thing of the past at national level, I hope spectators like it. Otherwise crowds will drop even further - reducing the club's ability to afford to run those rounds....

[jellywrestler]

Shit that a woeful number isn't it. ealry days yet, it costs a tenner to register so that'll explain somesign of the times. But it used to be by rider.there's a few, this is predominately for nationals, and early on, road racers are notorius for being late at things...
I dont think there was even a co-entered name in more than one class their on that list either.
Greymouth still gets close to a hundred entries though only one number per rider afaik.
No need to worry about the commentating there seeing the numbers as they only see two small parts of the track at any one time.
I have been to plenty of meetings without commentary i survived i dont go for the commentary.me too, but we trying to encourage people to the sport aren't we?
No offense to you intended.takes a lot more than that to offend me!
The way i see it people would stil race without specators by if there was no racing there would be no racing spectators.i watched the national toyota series at taupo on telly, the spectator numbers were at best a third than the NZSBK, we are poised on numbers of bums on seats in comparison to the once high and mighty car series to actually sit up and be noticed by coca cola and simllar, why not tidy ourselves up and see what evolves?
there are exceptions of course the street circuits would not run without spectators.
But go to a club meet there is few spectators that are not friends or family its the same for karts. or most MX club meets.
Motorcycling is not a big sport esp when you consider how much the poms payed for a goal keeper the other day, over 100 million?jeez, she must have had big tits for that sort of money.
interesting take on it all, at the end of the day it's up to the individuals to actually have a bit of respect for their sport in my opinion. I handed out a riders profile sheet a the first round of the nationals for many years, just a bit of homework to help the commentary team with stuff along the way. Last year I didn't, you know by the end of the first weekend of the NZSBK just one hand written bit of info was passed over to Neil Ritchie (also commentator, new zealands best according to MNZ publicity)
Now there's got to be about five hundred people in the bits either riding, spannering, owning, co-ordinating, mothering, fathering or someway involved in a sport that requires so much to get to the track in terms of dollars and tenacity, yet apart from one, nobody thought that the primary method of them getting their name/sponsors/whatever out to the world needed to know anything.
Apathy is the word, on numbers, and the above it seems

[eldog]

To the best of my knowledge, all the NZ circuits have at least two hire rates. Generally, if you're charging admission, it's a higher rate - sometimes double.
Club days are not promoted to attract spectators hence don't charge at the gate so as to get a lower cost of hire...

But the promoted meetings start with a higher base cost. So you must attract and entertain spectators. I personally didn't like what was done at the Hampton Downs round of the Nationals last season - but I can see why it was done....
Entertaining spectators with racing starts with a good - preferably free - programme. Then follows the ability to identify the riders being talked about by (hopefully) a good commentator.

If identifiable numbers become a thing of the past at national level, I hope spectators like it. Otherwise crowds will drop even further - reducing the club's ability to afford to run those rounds....


I have been to a club event, actually enjoyed it better than the promoted event at the same location I had attended previously.
I wouldn't have minded paying for entry. But once it was explained (like Grumph above) then I understood.

But it is much more helpful to become part of an event, if you know or can recognise someone.

At the paid event I had too move away from speakers (and some of the crowd) too loud.

Can see the point of track officials too.

I suppose there will come a day that each bike/rider would have a tracker fixed to bike and spectators can see position on map on a phone etc.
With selection of individual rider and/or current race leaders with stats etc.

Apathy tends to be a New Zealand thing? Somehow related to tall poppy syndrome?

[malcy25]

interesting take on it all, at the end of the day it's up to the individuals to actually have a bit of respect for their sport in my opinion. I handed out a riders profile sheet a the first round of the nationals for many years, just a bit of homework to help the commentary team with stuff along the way. Last year I didn't, you know by the end of the first weekend of the NZSBK just one hand written bit of info was passed over to Neil Ritchie (also commentator, new zealands best according to MNZ publicity)
No there's got to be about five hundred people in the bits either riding, spannering, owning, co-ordinating, mothering, fathering or someway involved in a sport that requires so much to get to the track in terms of dollars and tenacity, yet apart from one, nobody thought that the primary method of them getting their name/sponsors/whatever out to the world needed to know anything.
Apathy is the word, on numbers, and the above it seems

Interesting, I provided an info sheet to MNZ before the season start, which was used to populate a apage on the NZSBK website, as did many other riders.
http://www.nzsbk.co.nz/riders/
I assumed this as a given this information would have been passed to the commentary team.

Thanks for the prompt Spyda. I shall Never rely on that information to be passed on and will try and direct it to you and your colleagues directly

[jellywrestler]

Interesting, I provided an info sheet to MNZ before the season start, which was used to populate a apage on the NZSBK website, as did many other riders.
http://www.nzsbk.co.nz/riders/
I assumed this as a given this information would have been passed to the commentary team.

Thanks for the prompt Spyda. I shall Never rely on that information to be passed on and will try and direct it to you and your colleagues directly

that rings a bell, and that explains a bit, new team at MNZ, right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing., there's room for a little bit more there so if they talk to me about it i'll throw my two cents worth in
thanks for that Alistair.

[Michael Moore]

No.


It sounds like someone in the club management is taking money saving too far. I have to periodically cull the rule book accumulation (two each year) to keep them from being a fire hazard. :) If you give every rider a rule book each season (instead of leaving them to find one online, and there are still a few people with limited net access) then you know they've gotten one, and there's no good excuse for not being conversant with the contents.

If you want to play, you need to know and follow the rules.

[jellywrestler]

It sounds like someone in the club management is taking money saving too far. I have to periodically cull the rule book accumulation (two each year) to keep them from being a fire hazard. :) If you give every rider a rule book each season (instead of leaving them to find one online, and there are still a few people with limited net access) then you know they've gotten one, and there's no good excuse for not being conversant with the contents.

If you want to play, you need to know and follow the rules.
like all rule books 90% doesn't cover you, so the on line option is much easier to hone into where you want to be, especially with control find option,
i wonder how many teams, on the way to meetings, actually pull out an ipad and play i spy with the rules? pretty good option there to run over things but I would doubt it pretty well ever happens....
i'd be interested to find out what a printed copy is worth.

[Mental Trousers]

i'd be interested to find out what a printed copy is worth.

When you renew your licence it's an extra $10+postage (I think). Can't remember as I renewed mine a over month ago (ticked the box for the printed manual) and I can't remember if I'm wearing pants without looking down let alone the exact price.

[nodrog]

How do I know what number I can run at the nationals? They haven't sent me anything saying where I placed.

[Danger Dave]

When you renew your licence it's an extra $10+postage (I think). Can't remember as I renewed mine a over month ago (ticked the box for the printed manual) and I can't remember if I'm wearing pants without looking down let alone the exact price.

Just loged in now and it's $20 + postage

[jellywrestler]

How do I know what number I can run at the nationals? They haven't sent me anything saying where I placed.

back when i was racing the sidecar association gave out chocolate fish, prob too much sugar now to be politically correct though

[Mental Trousers]

back when i was racing the sidecar association gave out chocolate fish, prob too much sugar now to be politically correct though

Would have to be Glutin free, Sugar free, Glyphosate free, Vegetarian, Organic Kale coated Cauliflower.

[jasonu]

Would have to be Glutin free, Sugar free, Glyphosate free, Vegetarian, Organic Kale coated Cauliflower.

oh and it can't be brown or yellow either... gay is OK though:banana: