The 1080 debate

[Katman]

I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way an advanced society should deal with an issue?

[F5 Dave]

Yeah, why can't we just set Gin traps?

[husaberg]

I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way an advanced society should deal with an issue?
Cool then you will offer some viable alternatives it should be fun especially considering how little you know about 1080.

[Katman]

Yeah, why can't we just set Gin traps?

Do you truly think Gin traps are the only other option?

[Katman]

Cool then you will offer some viable alternatives it should be fun especially considering how little you know about 1080.

There are viable alternatives.

Yes, they might be more expensive - but that was the whole point behind post #1.

(And by the way, I'd feed 1080 to you in a heartbeat).

[SaferRides]

There are viable alternatives.

Yes, they might be more expensive - but that was the whole point behind post #1.

(And by the way, I'd feed 1080 to you in a heartbeat).
Tell us more...

[Katman]

Tell us more...

Go do some reading.

[Taxythingy]

Oh, look. It isn't going to be a debate about 1080, rather about people's personalities. Woohoo! :woohoo:

[Katman]

Oh, look. It isn't going to be a debate about 1080, rather about people's personalities. Woohoo! :woohoo:

You shouldn't let yourself be put off so easily.

Make a post that expresses your opinion - if you have one.

[sidecar bob]

Go do some reading.

If you spent as much time on pest control as you do arguing pointless causes on forums the country wouldn't have a pest problem & you would have a MBE by now.

[Katman]

If you spent as much time on pest control as you do arguing pointless causes on forums the country wouldn't have a pest problem & you would have a MBE by now.

Thanks for the input Steve - it means a lot.

[husaberg]

There are viable alternatives.

Yes, they might be more expensive - but that was the whole point behind post #1.



The West Coast is 80% DOC stretches from the the equivalent of Auckland to Wellington, most of it is mountainous a lot of it is near totally un-accessible on foot or to dangerous to traverse it also has few roads.
It also is a TB endemic area.
So go ahead name these viable alternatives.
Then tell me who is going to pay.
how much extra its going to cost
Then how much you personally are willing to pay for it.
Then explain what the issue is with 1080 in the first place.
You could also outline your experience with 1080 and the other methods outline all their pros and cons

[Katman]

.... and how much you personally are willing to pay for it.

I'll pay for it out of my taxes - just like everyone else will.

And yes, I'm happy to pay more towards an alternative to the callous and indiscriminate poisoning of our environment and it's inhabitants.

[husaberg]

I'll pay for it out of my taxes - just like everyone else will.

And yes, I'm happy to pay more towards an alternative to the callous and indiscriminate poisoning of our environment and it's inhabitants.
The West Coast is 80% DOC stretches from the the equivalent of Auckland to Wellington, most of it is mountainous alot of it is near totally un-accessible on foot or to dangerous to traverse it also has few roads.
It also is a TB endemic area.
So go ahead name these viable alternatives?

but i will take it that you are willing for the tax payers and landowners everywhere in NZ to pay all the additional costs?
PS a lot of the money for vector doesn't come from taxes (I am not surprised you never knew that either)
So how much extra its going to cost?
Then how much are you personally are willing to pay for it?

You could also outline your experience with 1080 and the other methods outline all their pros and cons
You might want too explain the callous and indiscriminate part as well as how you intend to control the vectors.
Then explain what the issue is with 1080 in the first place.

[Laava]

Time to bring out the lesbians.

[Woodman]

1080 works and is getting rid of non native species and restoring our birdlife which is a great thing. It has its cons, but really there is no viable alternative.

The other great thing about the 1080 debate is now we have our own area 51 type lunatic fringe in NZ. Fucking entertaining.

[F5 Dave]

There are alternatives.

Rehabilitation.
You could send in facilitators to teach the Rats and Stoats and Posses to hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

Hmm. . . Thing is, the singing and dancing will make them horny.

Oh no, I didn't think this through! Legions of RatStoats :Oops:

[Dadpole]

Oh no, I didn't think this through! Legions of RatStoats :Oops:

Just elect them to Parliament like the rest of their kind.

[sidecar bob]

I'll pay for it out of my taxes - just like everyone else will.
.

That's a noble attitude.
Just think how much pest control we could have got for the price of the tooth fairy's pointless jaunt in the 757 recently without you having to find another hard earned cent to give them.
Perhaps some Maori tribes could band together & use a portion of their massive taxpayer handouts to help out too.

[Katman]

The other great thing about the 1080 debate is now we have our own area 51 type lunatic fringe in NZ. Fucking entertaining.

Most causes that people feel strongly about will attract a radical fringe but it would be wrong to assume that those who threaten to put 1080 in milk powder and those who throw 1080 at politicians represent the vast majority who don't support the current usage of 1080.

But it raises the old question, what drives a suicide bomber to blow themselves up?

It's usually a deep belief in their cause coupled with a sense of frustration that they are not being heard.

[Katman]

That's a noble attitude.
Just think how much pest control we could have got for the price of the tooth fairy's pointless jaunt in the 757 recently without you having to find another hard earned cent to give them.
Perhaps some Maori tribes could band together & use a portion of their massive taxpayer handouts to help out too.

Or a wasted $26 million on a flag referendum.

[sidecar bob]

Or a wasted $26 million on a flag referendum.

Yeah, that's a fantastic old chestnut & you're lucky to have it to make every dopey decision ok with the current govt.
He could have gone ahead & changed the flag without consulting the population like Labour would.

[Katman]

http://www.1080.org.nz/1_Welcome_to_ESPC%3B_an_overview.html

[sidecar bob]

http://www.1080.org.nz/1_Welcome_to_ESPC%3B_an_overview.html

Yep, it kills shit, we already know that.
Anything new available on this topic? We don't need emotionally charged children's picture book drawings to follow the plot. well some may.

[Katman]

Anything new available on this topic?

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.

[sidecar bob]

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.

I had that done years ago. I had already bred previously however:msn-wink:

[caspernz]

1080 works and is getting rid of non native species and restoring our birdlife which is a great thing. It has its cons, but really there is no viable alternative.

The other great thing about the 1080 debate is now we have our own area 51 type lunatic fringe in NZ. Fucking entertaining.


Yep, it kills shit, we already know that.
Anything new available on this topic? We don't need emotionally charged children's picture book drawings to follow the plot. well some may.

A simple cartoon works for me...:killingme

It's quite hard for someone to get unbiased info on this topic. Bit like global warming, I want to know the source of the info and how they're funded. I can be against all kinds of things, but who am I to question any expert in their chosen profession?

So while I may not like the somewhat indiscriminate way in which 1080 allegedly kills, the viable alternative is MIA at this stage.

[husaberg]

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.
We do a heck of a klot of research but you need to consider that the transport mechanism is a Genetically Engineered product.
Also the same lunitic fringe plus others is against making animal sterile with genetic engineering.
So how are you getting on with that list of viable options then you stated their were alternatives, Yet it turns out you dont know any.


The West Coast is 80% DOC stretches from the the equivalent of Auckland to Wellington, most of it is mountainous alot of it is near totally un-accessible on foot or to dangerous to traverse it also has few roads.
It also is a TB endemic area.
So go ahead name these viable alternatives?

but i will take it that you are willing for the tax payers and landowners everywhere in NZ to pay all the additional costs?
PS a lot of the money for vector doesn't come from taxes (I am not surprised you never knew that either)
So how much extra its going to cost?
Then how much are you personally are willing to pay for it?

You could also outline your experience with 1080 and the other methods outline all their pros and cons
You might want too explain the callous and indiscriminate part as well as how you intend to control the vectors.
Then explain what the issue is with 1080 in the first place.

[TheDemonLord]

This is an old Debate - we are all about the 4K now...

But in seriousness - not a huge fan of the use of Poisons per se, but as Husa points out - There are some rather unique challenges to the problem, challenges that Poison does address rather well.

And that's about all I care for the subject.

[Katman]

This is an old Debate - we are all about the 4K now...

But in seriousness - not a huge fan of the use of Poisons per se, but as Husa points out - There are some rather unique challenges to the problem, challenges that Poison does address rather well.

And that's about all I care for the subject.

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.

[Woodman]

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.
That's great but while they are researching the 1080 drops need to continue until the research comes up with a viable alternative The end game is to restore the native species.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

[husaberg]

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.
DOC and TB free currently do limit their drop to areas that are inaccessible.
Trapping is not an option , because large scale it doesn't work, because many animals are already trap shy, trapping is indiscriminate in the animals it catches (your words make this not an option),the traps have to be checked daily with hours of sunrise plus as proven in the past people that are trapping for a living do not reduce the population down to levels low enough to eradicate TB.
This is simply because they want to catch plenty of animals so they move on before the population density is lowered enough.
There is also the issue of once trapped how the animal is going to be killed this is most frequently achieved by beating the possum to death with a steel rod or hammer or drowning if its a stoat ferret or weasel
Also trapping for a fur industry raises the ire of Petna.
The other issue with large scale trapping is as soon as it starts the fur industry price collapses.
Thats without mentioning there is not anywhere near the required number of skilled people to do this.

There is reasons 1080 is used and that it is the safest method for aerial application, reasons that are unique to NZ and the properties unique to 1080 properties, maybe you should take the time to educate yourself as to why this is.

[TheDemonLord]

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.

Would you be in favor of allowing for high capacity Magazines for Varmint calibres (.22 and under) as a means of encouraging individual NZers to help with the solution?

[Swoop]

1080 works and is getting rid of non native species ...
Can anyone explain how 1080 knows to only kill non-native species?

[husaberg]

Can anyone explain how 1080 knows to only kill non-native species?
Simple the toxin is most effective on mammals. NZ has only two native mammal species living in the wild Native bats and Seals.
The bat areas are excluded as are the Seal areas (ie the ocean.)
Humans are excluded from the areas as are dogs where the bait is used and we humans have a much higher tolerance anyway.
1080 is highly biodegradable and breaks down to non harmful components very fast in the ecosystem.

The dye used also discourages birds.

[Katman]

http://1080science.co.nz/1080-chemistry/

[Katman]

And I found it interesting that Trevor Mallard reiterated the fact that it is a criminal offence to kill the species of birds that were dumped at Parliament yesterday.

Does he really think 1080 has never killed a native bird?

[FJRider]

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.

The (THEN) Minister of Conservation for the previous Government already floated that principal ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/84797468/mass-rat-sterilisation-could-be-the-answer-to-new-zealands-pest-free-future

[Woodman]

And I found it interesting that Trevor Mallard reiterated the fact that it is a criminal offence to kill the species of birds that were dumped at Parliament yesterday.

Does he really think 1080 has never killed a native bird?
Of course 1080 has killed native birds but a lot lot less than the predators do and then once the predators have gone then they cannot kill the birds because they are dead. Doc Don't deny the collateral damage. The kea lady in kahurangi np knows that some keas have died due to 1080 but she supports 1080 because the kea population has increased hugely and the predator population has almost gone.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

[Paul in NZ]

Its good to have a debate about these things but all the evidence that I have personally seen has indicated that in this case DOC are correct and the protesters are wrong. Indeed some of them are more than wrong but rather are being deliberately misleading (lying) to achieve their aims... And then they accuse DOC of lying?? Um...

First up - I freely admit to bias. I have several long term friends who work for DOC. Its interesting that these people joined DOC in the 70's because of their staunch conservation views and have worked tirelessly to nurture and preserve the wild places in NZ and it inhabitants.

Before this gets rowdy and we get all what about the 1000s of birds killed in the bush thats eerily silent after a 1080 drop let me just say that this debate is a smoke screen and its not what people think it is AND that I have spend hours in the bush and where 1080 IS used it works. There are close to a quarter of a million water samples taken and never once has it reached anything like dangerous levels. There is an issue with Keas taking the baits but there is not ONE example of a kiwi being poisoned by 1080. All those pictures of dead kiwis lined up? They were killed by dogs, cats, cars etc and kept in a freezer for study. The dead kiwi in stewart island? it was a dead kiwi - they dont live forever and there was NO 1080 in it...

Yes - errors were made in the 60's using planes but now using choppers and gps and changed baits mistakes are very rare. Most domestic animal deaths are not because DOC dropped a load of baits on a farm but because a farmer allowed his stock onto DOC land when they were warned repeatedly about the drop and seem to think they have a god given right to let semi feral stock loose in the DOC estate...

The BIGGEST problem with 1080 is that it kills mammals. Thats why NZ is the main user, we dont have native mammals. However there is a segment of society that does not really care much about birds but does care about the bush being full of deer, pigs, goats and possums. In some cases they dont really give much of a shit about native trees either but would rather a parkland of exotics. Look at the signs the protesters carry - Stop poisoning our food basket- thats pretty much it... They are pissed they cant go shoot a pig... There have been cases where DOC removes the population so people re release deer in an area. Despite this DOC use a deer repellant in the recreational hunting zones.

DOC see these animals as rats with hooves and while they dont target them directly a dead deer is a good deer.

1080 kills dogs? Well yes it will... BUT slug bait you can buy from the garden centre kills many many more dogs than 1080 and most of them die from hand sown non 1080 baits in areas with signs warning people to control their dogs...

As for the old follow the money crap - the only people getting rich are the graf brothers. They get funding from people like the matamata deer stalkers to make the videos and get elected to council .... One of the graf brothers is a convicted bank robber and while they claim they are not hunters but merely photographers that's not strictly true - search out their early life etc. The photographs they take are of dead deer and of course they are all killed by 1080 with zero toxicology reports. hmmm

I've been out to dinner with DOC folks only to have them leave to attend to a Police call out as some nut jobs threatened to kill an employees family.... Usually its a loony that wants to live off the land... Not their land mind you - rather DOC's

Trapping - it works in small managed plantations close to civilization. I have some local experience protecting a local bush remnant. There is 4wd access and we have cut mountain bike and walking tracks and the traps are along these trails. No point in even trying to get into th gullies unless the farmers let his stock in there (again) illegally... It works to a point IF the trapper is a conservationist but there is damage done cutting tracks to the trap line (usually a few 100m apart) but it does NOT work if the trapper is commercial as he quickly becomes a farmer. It wont work in the real back blocks as too much land is really hard to get to. I spent 2 weeks in the wilkinson a while back - 1 week with a possum trapper and he only touched the easy country and it was a 3 day walk in (I flew). HOWEVER DOC are spending $$ getting companies to develop next generation traps right now (recent article in wilderness magazine is a good one)

https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/closing-zip-possums/

Having said that - wilderness has always favored 1080


https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/4574-2/

[Katman]

It's interesting to note too, how many bleeding hearts (and I'm not using that phrase in a derogatory manner, but rather to fully illustrate the paradox) there are who want to save our native birds but who don't seem to care in the slightest about the manner in which a predator dies.

6 - 18 hours of excruciating agony doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

[jasonu]

Would you be in favor of allowing for high capacity Magazines for Varmint calibres (.22 and under) as a means of encouraging individual NZers to help with the solution?

17HMR. Great varmit rifles.

[husaberg]

It's interesting to note too, how many bleeding hearts (and I'm not using that phrase in a derogatory manner, but rather to illustrate the paradox) there are who want to save our native birds but who don't seem to care in the slightest about the manner in which a predator dies.

6 - 18 hours of excruciating agony doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
Wrong again thats now how 1080 works at all, no pain is felt after the animal losses consciousness.
But i note it was you you suggested trapping, how much pain is felt by the 18 hours spent with their leg caught in a trap before it is beaten to death with a hammer steel rod.
Or by internal bleeding or suffication from other poisons.

[Katman]

Wrong again thats now how 1080 works at all, no pain is felt after the animal losses consciousness.


How about you try some and get back to us.

[husaberg]

How about you try some and get back to us.
Plenty of peolple have 1080 before its not deadly in small doses a human of 90 KG would have to eat 45 5gm baits to obtain a lethal dose
The Regional council senior staff used to eat one at every meeting as a demostration, its a good way of shutting up idiots like you.
I see you have not actually answered anything i have posted.
It speaks volumes for your lack of knowledge on the subject, Thats you in a nutshell really, big on opinion but hugely lacking in any knowledge about the subject.

[Katman]

a human of 90 KG would have to eat 45 5gm baits to obtain a lethal dose


I'll shout you them.

[Paul in NZ]

It's interesting to note too, how many bleeding hearts (and I'm not using that phrase in a derogatory manner, but rather to fully illustrate the paradox) there are who want to save our native birds but who don't seem to care in the slightest about the manner in which a predator dies.

6 - 18 hours of excruciating agony doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

11080 kills its victims by entering the Krebs cycle. The Krebs Cycle (also known as the TCA cycle or Citric Acid cycle) is a very complex cycle that is the main metabolic pathway which uses glucose, amino acids and fatty acids from the break down of food molecules (carbohydrates, proteins and fats either eaten or stored within the body).

The poison works by inhibiting the function of one critical enzyme in the Krebs cycle, therefore blocking the cycle.

With this enzyme inhibited (therefore bringing down the whole cycle) the energy production falls as the body’s cells are unable to use the glucose, amino acids and fatty acids begin to accumulate in the body’s cells. Both the accumulated food molecules and little to no energy
production leads to the muscles and vital organs drastically malfunctioning resulting in the animals death.

Although 1080 is extremely toxic, its effects aren’t as immediate as some others (cyanide for instance). Depending on the strength of the dose, symptoms can be seen up to 1 1/2 hours, this is also dependent on the species which intakes the bait.

Sufficient inhibition of energy production of cells in this way results in vital functions of the body to stop. Herbivores usually die of heart failure, whereas carnivores are more likely to die of respiratory failure.

A report commissioned in 2009 by the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC) rated the humaneness of death by 1080 poisoning for possums as grade 6, with grade 1 being the most humane and 8, the least humane. This score takes into consideration the overall impact and its duration of a range of welfare compromises.

So yes its far from ideal but there are not a lot of suitable replacement alternatives to suit NZ. If we are having this debate we need to discuss the reason why we use 1080 so queue the battle for the birds. Its perfectly valid to just say its too cruel to kill animals in this fashion and walk away as it would save a lot of cash. But we should also walk away from Kiwi breeding and blue ducks and everything else and let the rats have the forest. That of course isn't going to be much fun for the birds but they are birds right - not furry critters...

Its also worth noting that your average domestic rat baits are also pretty awful stuff for rats and mice and the old trapping argument does not always kill cleanly. I went pig hunting once with some mates - all rabid anti 1080 folks and one reason was the pain and suffering... They lost one gut shot pig and stuck another one after the dogs had it bailed up for a bit... The pig wasn't exactly squealing with delight if you get my drift. As a kid we hunted possums for bounty and yeah again it was a grisly old end for mr possum... I also went on holiday with a mates uncle who was one of the last rabbiters... Had a pack of always hungry shelter dogs and big old stick... The little dogs would scare up the bunnies and the big lurcher types would run the ridges and dive on them once they started to run. Dogs loved it - rabbits not so much

Pest controls a bloody awful business - its no fun for anyone and NO ONE wants to be doing it... BUT is it worth the effort? Bloody oath it is...

[TheDemonLord]

Just 2 videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Pyu-Cj0gg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqIIjGIVrng

I get the large amount of territory is a problem and the remoteness and isolation, what solution would we come up with if 1080 wasn't an option?

[FJRider]

Plenty of peolple have 1080 before its not deadly in small doses a human of 90 KG would have to eat 45 5gm baits to obtain a lethal dose


A few years back in Central Otago ... One guy loading 1080 poisoned carrots into a top-dressing aircraft ... decided to top himself by eating as much "product" as he could. All he got was a stomach ache ... and spewed most of it up.

He was back at work a few days later ... but still peeing green ... :laugh:

[husaberg]

I'll shout you them.
You would not be legally allowed to obtain them.
The police assess the poisons licience based on being good character a rational and sound mind, you would clearly not pass the test.

[Paul in NZ]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/09/road-kill-birds-used-in-1080-demonstration-protester-admits.html???????

Trapping and hunting apparently...

His arguments have so many holes in them its laughable - we don't have the right to declare animals as pests? yeah we do actually.. We do it everytime my wife finds a mouse in the house.

Look for the underlaying message - he wants to hunt deer and pigs which isn't humane in any way - this is fucking nuts. and NONE of those birds were killed by 1080 and most of the animals were... that's the whole point surely?

[Woodman]

I have as yet to meet an anti 1080 campaigner that isn't a hunter.

[Paul in NZ]

I have as yet to meet an anti 1080 campaigner that isn't a hunter.

Yup.........

[husaberg]

A few years back in Central Otago ... One guy loading 1080 poisoned carrots into a top-dressing aircraft ... decided to top himself by eating as much "product" as he could. All he got was a stomach ache ... and spewed most of it up.

He was back at work a few days later ... but still peeing green ... :laugh:
One guy succeeded about 40 years ago as a suicide, he ate a whole jam jar full of it, its the only known human death from 1080.
An amazing record when you consider how many have died from accidental cyanide poisoning.
The threshold we have for water contamination means a cup of tea contains 1 1/2 times the absolute limit water 1080 water levels.

[Katman]

I have as yet to meet an anti 1080 campaigner that isn't a hunter.

Well I don't know whether I qualify as an anti 1080 campaigner in your eyes, but I can tell you I'm certainly no hunter.

[Swoop]

Simple the toxin is most effective on mammals. NZ has only two native mammal species living in the wild Native bats and Seals.
The bat areas are excluded as are the Seal areas (ie the ocean.)
Humans are excluded from the areas as are dogs where the bait is used and we humans have a much higher tolerance anyway.
1080 is highly biodegradable and breaks down to non harmful components very fast in the ecosystem.

The dye used also discourages birds.

PaulinNZ's insights are also interesting.

[husaberg]

PaulinNZ's insights are also interesting.
There is plenty of scientific peer reviewed information available its just not on the conspiracy sites that Katspama visits.

[Paul in NZ]

There is plenty of scientific peer reviewed information available its just not on the conspiracy sites that Katspama visits.

Yes there is...

There are many conservation organisations and they all support 1080 and they are all (apparently) lying and criminals and making money from 1080. I don't know of anyone making serious money from 1080 - the maker is a not for profit. Yet all these organisations have a track record IN conservation so I just don't get that they are all deliberately lying - its highly unlikely.

As for DOC - they have made shit loads of people redundant - often with a great deal of bitterness but shock... No ex DOC exposes' It just makes no sense....

I think this will be my last contribution here on 1080. I just don't believe the opposition...

[FJRider]

Would you be in favor of allowing for high capacity Magazines for Varmint calibres (.22 and under) as a means of encouraging individual NZers to help with the solution?

With the effort needed to get a firearms license ... few not already licensed would bother. And with a .22 or smaller ... you'd need to be standing on it's foot to hit (KILL) it.

The idea of a few (hundred ???) people wandering around national parks ... blasting away at anything that moves (in the dark) is laughable ... if not scary.

As you'd only see possums in enough numbers at night to make the shoot worthwhile ... and you'd need pretty clear bush to cover any amount of territory to make it practical.

On the majority West Coast of the south island ... to get further than a few meters from the roads is a struggle. Those that doubt me should read the books at watch the tv programs about the early explorers (or go and see for yourselves). Even with local Maori guides they struggled.

Even DOC have been looking for/at better (and humane/cost effective) methods ... but they admit it's a long term goal. NOT likely to be implemented any time soon.

Choices of action:

1. Continue with the 1080 program and accept some losses of the non target species.

2. Do nothing and wait 20 years for a better method to be implemented .

The Image attached is of Otira. Taken last Saturday. Could this be regarded as an "accessible" area (by foot) ... or aircraft accessed area only ???

Note ... this photo is of a populated area within/near a farming area on the valley floor.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.

Agreed. However when an area stops producing economic numbers of possums, it stops getting trapped.
DOC used to use bradoforicum (?) which seemed to work well, I guess 1080 was cheaper.
I remember, as a kid, the local councils paying a ‘bounty’ on possy and rabbit tails. Up here it
was 3 22 rounds, or 1 12g shell.

[jasonu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqIIjGIVrng

I get the large amount of territory is a problem and the remoteness and isolation, what solution would we come up with if 1080 wasn't an option?

Or the 9mm solution.

[FJRider]

Agreed. However when an area stops producing economic numbers of possums, it stops getting trapped.
DOC used to use bradoforicum (?) which seemed to work well, I guess 1080 was cheaper.
I remember, as a kid, the local councils paying a ‘bounty’ on possy and rabbit tails. Up here it
was 3 22 rounds, or 1 12g shell.

You were close ... Brodifacoum


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodifacoum

[husaberg]

Agreed. However when an area stops producing economic numbers of possums, it stops getting trapped.
DOC used to use bradoforicum (?) which seemed to work well, I guess 1080 was cheaper.
I remember, as a kid, the local councils paying a ‘bounty’ on possy and rabbit tails. Up here it
was 3 22 rounds, or 1 12g shell.

Brodifacoum (ie talon rat poison) is not licenced for aerial applications on NZ mainland.
It has issues in regards to its speed of brakedown and its persistence in the animals if they obtain a sub lethal dose which can lead to an accumulation effect
http://www.issg.org/pdf/publications/Island_Invasives/pdfHQprint/3FisherP.pdf
https://www.doc.govt.nz/Documents/science-and-technical/docts23b.pdf

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Brodifacoum (ie talon rat poison) is not licenced for aerial applications on NZ mainland.
It has issues in regards to its speed of brakedown and its persistence in the animals if they obtain a sub lethal dose which can lead to an accumulation effect
http://www.issg.org/pdf/publications/Island_Invasives/pdfHQprint/3FisherP.pdf
https://www.doc.govt.nz/Documents/science-and-technical/docts23b.pdf

Cheers
I’ve heard stories about its use, from my son. DOC Ranger.
But thinking back it was on islands down Fiordland / Stewart Island way.

[Woodman]

Well I don't know whether I qualify as an anti 1080 campaigner in your eyes, but I can tell you I'm certainly no hunter.

I didn't think you were a hunter, and I get your concerns about animal welfare, but I do think it is still the best solution we have at the moment, and stopping until we find another solution is just not an option.

[skippa1]

If you take all the emotion out of the discussion. I dont think anyone wants 1080....but how else do you control the rodents, stoats, possums etc?

if you stopped using 1080 today. What would the cost be in 5 years? I suspect everybody would be a lot less happy ....

sometimes you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette

[Katman]

I suppose one of the important questions is.....

Is sufficient effort and funding going into finding an alternative?

Or is there a tendency to just happily roll with the cheapest 'most cost effective' option?

[Woodman]

I suppose one of the important questions is.....

Is sufficient effort and funding going into finding an alternative?

Or is there a tendency to just happily roll with the cheapest 'most cost effective' option?

Maybe there already has been and 1080 is still the best method.

[Katman]

Maybe there already has been and 1080 is still the best method.

Well I suppose that depends entirely on one's definition of 'best'.

[Woodman]

Well I suppose that depends entirely on one's definition of 'best'.

Trying to quantify "best" is a bit Zen.

[Taxythingy]

Sorry, missed getting back with my opinion. PaulinNZ has it fairly covered.

It's a poor method, but there just isn't a significantly better one available that works. There MIGHT be other poisons that do the job better, but they probably won't be as mammal-specific. There might be completely different techniques that work, but until it's aerial or space-based, it isn't going to cover the massive land areas we have. I like the idea that is being trialed on the coast, where they are looking to create a fenced predator-free area and then slowly expand it. It will however take huge resourcing to cover a meaningful area in a reasonable time, even while using poison drops to eradicate.

I don't like it, but on balance, I prefer that to the harm the rats, stoats and possums cause.

[FJRider]

I suppose one of the important questions is..... is sufficient effort and funding going into finding an alternative?

Or is there a tendency to just happily roll with the cheapest 'most cost effective' option?

So ... it's your definition of sufficient ... against my definition of sufficient.

Which is preferable ... getting results (that may not be ideal) now ... or waiting for a cost effective solution that works (better ??) but in the meantime do nothing ... :scratch:

This from the Conservation policy of the current elected [sic] Government.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzlabour/pages/8572/attachments/original/1504908218/Conservation_Policy.pdf?1504908218


There are a range of tools available for controlling mammalian predators, including new automatic resetting traps. However, aerial application of 1080 is the best available option for possum, rat and stoat control particularly in difficult to access country. The use of 1080 is strongly supported by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment (PCE), who says it remains essential for the foreseeable future.” 3 DOC and other pest control agencies should better explain to the public the need to use aerial 1080, at least until new and alternative tools are developed.


Sounds pretty much the same as the National Party policy.


https://www.greens.org.nz/sites/default/files/conservation_20170621_0.pdf


B. Use of Poisons in Animal Pest Control
Currently animal pest control in Aotearoa New Zealand involves the extensive use of poisons in ground and aerial operations because they are generally cost effective means of controlling animal pest species. Modern technology allows more precise distribution of aerial poison such as 1080 than in the past, and the amount of poison per hectare has been reduced while still maintaining effectiveness.


Interestingly ...
In general, and wherever practical, support replacing poisons with humane and safe biological and physical controls.

In other words ... they don't have any alternate plan yet ... that is either more cost effective or more practical. And ... Until they get a few more seats in Parliament ... or get into power on their own accord ... what will they concede to Labour policies to get support for some of their own ???

Don't hold your breath until new methods are tried ... unless of course you're in a shed full of 1080.

[FJRider]

Maybe there already has been and 1080 is still the best method.

At best ... it's the most (cost) effective at the present time.

[Katman]

So ... it's your definition of sufficient ... against my definition of sufficient.

Dude, it's not a competition.

[BuzzardNZ]

(And by the way, I'd feed 1080 to you in a heartbeat).

Please do, if you need someone to hold him down, I'm sure most of KB will!

[frogfeaturesFZR]

At best ... it's the most (cost) effective at the present time.

Seem to remember the Texas company, that makes 1080, has folded.
I’m sure DOC has stockpiles, but they don’t last forever.
Can’t find the link, sorry.
So I suspect an alternative will be trialed.

[F5 Dave]

Being an ex Karori lad we saw what is now Zealandia is before and now after
https://www.visitzealandia.com

They have fully fenced off area and rejuvenated the area without pests.
We used to access the area over a fence behind the scout hall and go up to see the dams etc in the 80s.

Marked change without the pests. But this was s huge undertaking right next to a major city with an income of tourists for future decades.
Don't expect to be doing it in , well, anywhere rural.

[FJRider]

Seem to remember the Texas company, that makes 1080, has folded.
I’m sure DOC has stockpiles, but they don’t last forever.
Can’t find the link, sorry.
So I suspect an alternative will be trialed.

The company producing the 1080 pellets in NZ is NOT the dept of conservation. They are just one of their customers. The manufacturer is an outfit called Orillion ... formally known by the name of Animal Control Products Ltd. In 1991 became a State Owned Enterprise. Now it's registered trade name is PESTOFF.

No mention of them going out of business anytime soon ...

The link ...

https://www.pestoff.co.nz/


Check out "Our Customers" ... no wonder successive Governments continue to use their products ... they own the company ... :laugh:


Also ... In Austrailia
in 2016 PAPP (para-amino propiophenone) became available for use, which the RSPCA has endorsed as a more humane alternative to 1080 due in part to its ability to kill faster, as well as having an antidote, which 1080 does not.

Our Governments use/endorsement of this product might not be accepted for use in NZ (by our Government) when they OWN it's competition/alternative.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

The company producing the 1080 pellets in NZ is NOT the dept of conservation. They are just one of their customers. The manufacturer is an outfit called Orillion ... formally known by the name of Animal Control Products Ltd. In 1991 became a State Owned Enterprise. Now it's registered trade name is PESTOFF.

No mention of them going out of business anytime soon ...

The link ...

https://www.pestoff.co.nz/


Check out "Our Customers" ... no wonder successive Governments continue to use their products ... they own the company ... :laugh:


Also ... In Austrailia

Our Governments use/endorsement of this product might not be accepted for use in NZ (by our Government) when they OWN it's competition/alternative.

Quote from Stuff. ( yes I know, not the most reputable source )

The 1080 toxin is manufactured in Alabama, in the United States. There is only one manufacturer of 1080 baits in New Zealand, based in Wanganui, which converts the raw product shipped from Alabama.

A second company, based in Canterbury, has stated it intends to produce 1080 bait at a factory in Rolleston.

Wasn’t suggesting that DOC made it, merely that they are the largest end user.
Still can’t find the link about the US company closing down though.

[Katman]

Check out "Our Customers" ... no wonder successive Governments continue to use their products ... they own the company ....

Yeah, move along folks - no conflict of interest to see here. :whistle:

[F5 Dave]

My step mother wanted to invent a spray that repelled pets ripping open rubbish bags.

"PussOff!" And "Doggone"

But "Pestoff" is better. I applaud thee.

Used to be the guvvermint used to own the power company, the phone company and the post office. Bloody communists!

[FJRider]

The 1080 toxin is manufactured in Alabama, in the United States. There is only one manufacturer of 1080 baits in New Zealand, based in Wanganui, which converts the raw product shipped from Alabama.

A second company, based in Canterbury, has stated it intends to produce 1080 bait at a factory in Rolleston.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11343620

See the supporting organisations listerd at the bottom of the page.
http://www.1080facts.co.nz/the-science-of-how-1080-works.html

Were the birds bludgeoned to death by 1080 protesters or just picked up off the side of the road after being hit by a motor vehicle ... ???
https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/09/1080-protesters-go-too-far-this-time/

https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/tag/pest-control-research-nz-ltd/


Wasn’t suggesting that DOC made it, merely that they are the largest end user.

NZ is ... but not necessarily just DOC.



Still can’t find the link about the US company closing down though.

https://uncensored.co.nz/2018/08/24/tull-chemical-in-the-us-that-made-1080-has-shut-down-where-will-nz-now-source-1080-from-now/

[FJRider]

My step mother wanted to invent a spray that repelled pets ripping open rubbish bags.

"PussOff!" And "Doggone"

But "Pestoff" is better. I applaud thee.

Used to be the guvvermint used to own the power company, the phone company and the post office. Bloody communists!

The best one is in 5.56 caliber ... set on "Auto" ... :innocent: (works well on rabbit control too)

[Kickaha]

But i note it was you you suggested trapping, how much pain is felt by the 18 hours spent with their leg caught in a trap before it is beaten to death with a hammer steel rod.
.

There are a lot of auto reset traps used that kill instantly so they don't need checking as often

[Woodman]

There are a lot of auto reset traps used that kill instantly so they don't need checking as often

We cannot trap our way out of this, logistically impossible.

[nzspokes]

We cannot trap our way out of this, logistically impossible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQDy-5IQvuU

[husaberg]

There are a lot of auto reset traps used that kill instantly so they don't need checking as often
there are a few ,generally that use eccentricity or that use a .22 cal to drive a captive bolt.
Neither are a large scale option as they have to be carried into position. moved and removed plus the dead body lying under it is a bit of a deterrent to others.

[mada]

The company producing the 1080 pellets in NZ is NOT the dept of conservation. They are just one of their customers. The manufacturer is an outfit called Orillion ... formally known by the name of Animal Control Products Ltd. In 1991 became a State Owned Enterprise. Now it's registered trade name is PESTOFF.

No mention of them going out of business anytime soon ...

The link ...

https://www.pestoff.co.nz/


Check out "Our Customers" ... no wonder successive Governments continue to use their products ... they own the company ... :laugh:


Also ... In Austrailia

Our Governments use/endorsement of this product might not be accepted for use in NZ (by our Government) when they OWN it's competition/alternative.

Really?


" Initial indications that PAPP was far more toxic to mammals than birds was an attractive feature of its use in New Zealand where it was formulated to control stoats, weasels, and feral cats and registered for use in New Zealand in 2011.[9] PAPP is being further investigated in Australia for use on feral cats, red foxes and wild dogs.[10] In New Zealand PAPP kills stoats at low bait concentrations that are not lethal to far more tolerant exotic possums and rats. In New Zealand it is approved for use in paste form or in fresh minced meat, so will only provide effective stoat control as part of intensive ground control. The potential for environmental contamination appears to be low since it does not leave residues in the environment. At this stage the risk of non-target impacts (by-kill) is thought to be acceptably low using paste formulations, although more recent assessments have shown that some birds are more susceptible to PAPP than previously anticipated.[11]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%27-Aminopropiophenone


It doesn't look like it can be easily aerially dropped into rugged large swathes like 1080. Instead it requires field bait stations and is labour intensive.


"Trapping is labour intensive and prior to the registration of PAPP there were no poisons registered in New Zealand for stoat control.

Are there other target species for PAPP?
The registration of PAPP may be extended in the future to include ferrets. Research is underway testing the effectiveness of PAPP at controlling ferrets."

http://envirolink.govt.nz/assets/Envirolink/1294-NLRC160-Predator-control-and-PAPP-brochure.pdf


"Does PAPP persist in the environment?
PAPP is water–soluble. This means that if any bait falls out of a bait station the PAPP will be easily leached into the soil by rain where it is broken down into non-toxic naturally occurring substances. OECD test results show it
degrades within a month. Consequently, PAPP does not accumulate in the environment, and as it is used in bait stations it is unlikely to enter waterways. PAPP appears to have similar biodegradability and solubility as cyanide
and 1080. "

Nek minute ban-1080 will be calling for ban-PAPP :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[jellywrestler]

so where's all the actions by the anti 1080 wankers when they could put their money where their mouth is to speak and do a test area their own way to prove once and for all that other methods are achievable?
Especially in places of high unemployment, it would be a win win to me.

[Katman]

so where's all the actions by the anti 1080 wankers when they could put their money where their mouth is to speak and do a test area their own way to prove once and for all that other methods are achievable?
Especially in places of high unemployment, it would be a win win to me.

It sounds like something they'd be happy to prove.

Perhaps they haven't been given permission.

[husaberg]

It sounds like something they'd be happy to prove.

Perhaps they haven't been given permission.



There are viable alternatives.

.

So again what are threse viable large scale options you spoke of with such certainty earlier on.
You have yet to name any at all.
Bearing in mind its 2 million hectares on the South Island west coast alone.
thats 20,000 sq km's
Especially given a heck of a lot of it has never been traversed at all by humans.

[jellywrestler]

It sounds like something they'd be happy to prove.

Perhaps they haven't been given permission.

about 1% of them maybe if you tried hard, the rest think it's someone elses job, their entire commitment to the cause is bitching on line and maybe making up a placard and one for their mate....

[Graystone]

I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way an advanced society should deal with an issue?

We're a democracy with a 'nature' focused party who pisses around far too much with human centric socialist policy to be of any practical use to mother earth, what is this advanced society you speak of? Make no mistake, we're still a very primitive society, we just have some exceptional individuals advancing us despite this limitation.

[FJRider]

I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way a DEMOCRATIC society should deal with an issue?

There ... fixed it for you ... ;) ... and YES ... Even the Green Party agrees to it's use. (Until something better can be found)

If protesters find argument ... they might suggest and demonstrate a suitable method ... if any suitably qualified people are in their number.

These guys probably sway their opinion .. :bash:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uUBOIVLkj8o" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Have you ANY examples of alternate methods being used on any large area ... with ANY degree of success the 1080 achieves ... (regardless of the relevant cost of these alternate methods) ... ???

The elected Government chose 1080 as method of choiced ... as have ALL previous elected Governments of NZ.

Local Government in all parts of NZ use this method ... and praise the results achieved.

Native bird life is now increasing in all areas 1080 is used ... when previously it was in decline.

The best protesters can do is collect road kill birds and claim it's a 1080 issue.

Perhaps ... a referendum on this topic at the next election.

[mada]

It sounds like something they'd be happy to prove.

Perhaps they haven't been given permission.

DOC's already done the study for them... back in 2006


"Southern comfort

In 2006 there was a moderate beech seedfall in the Dart valley and rat and mouse numbers rose dramatically. Brodifacoum was placed in bait stations at a density of 1 bait station per hectare over 2700 ha of the valley floor. This caused only a temporary check in the increasing rat abundance and 1080 was broadcast from the air over 5600 ha of the Dart and Routeburn catchments. Rat tracking rates dropped after the 1080 was applied and did not subsequently rise above 12%.

Rat tracking rates were monitored in the Mill Flat part of the valley where no 1080 or brodifacoum was used. At Mill Flat rat densities peaked at 87%.

Mohua were monitored in both the treated valleys and at Mill Flat. Nesting success at Mill Flat (47%) was significantly lower than in the treated areas (89%) and all the nest failures at both places were caused by rats or stoats. Counts of mohua along transects in the Dart valley showed that mohua declined by 23% between 2006 and 2007 in areas that were treated with 1080, while there was a 100% decline in the untreated Mill Flat forests – no mohua were recorded on transects in 2007 at Mill Flat."

https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/battle-for-our-birds/updates/august-2014/

Gee I wonder why they advocate for it's use...

[Woodman]

Was reading on a anti 1080 facebook page today where they were looking for someone to front the media, and one of the suggestions that was popular was a hunting blogger from Australia:facepalm:

[FJRider]

There are a lot of auto reset traps used that kill instantly so they don't need checking as often

Yep ... there are. One's like this ... $185 retail.

https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/goodnature-possum-control-kit/p/326416?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlqGy5vW-3QIVR66WCh2bnQv5EAQYASABEgKKOfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

If all adult tax paying citizens (including beneficiaries) supplied a dozen ... it might (just) be enough to cover the south island west coast ... :yes:

Of course ... they might also be asked to help install them too ... :pinch:

Buying in bulk ... you might get the discount price too ... :innocent:

Another good one ...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HqanqqdGbko" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mada]

Surely releasing cats into the bush would be a more effective way at culling rodents and pests than 1080 poison?

#Ban1080 :headbang::headbang::headbang:

[jellywrestler]

Surely releasing cats into the bush would be a more effective way at culling rodents and pests than 1080 poison?

#Ban1080 :headbang::headbang::headbang:

that's as smart as gareth morgans bid to exterminate cats in wellington, then weeks later offering a beer per rat as a bounty, and the guy is a so called economist....

[Katman]

..... we just have some exceptional individuals advancing us despite this limitation.

Why thank-you.

[FJRider]

Surely releasing cats into the bush would be a more effective way at culling rodents and pests than 1080 poison?

#Ban1080 :headbang::headbang::headbang:

Cats kill more (native) birds than possums ... and wild cats are already present in most areas of native bush. They do no assist pest control in any way. They are even higher up the DOC "Hit List" than possums ... as birds are their natural prey.

Have your say here ... For or against 1080 ... if you need a laugh at peoples thinking and understanding of the 1080 issue.

https://www.facebook.com/ban1080party/

But I'm sure they all mean well ... ;)

[FJRider]

that's as smart as gareth morgans bid to exterminate cats in wellington, then weeks later offering a beer per rat as a bounty, and the guy is a so called economist....

Post second world war in Singapore ... flies infested the country. The Government of the day offered a bounty of 5 cents a dozen (I think). It worked.

[mada]

The truth is revealed https://scontent.fakl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40199342_10156633540879299_9087114680425512960_o.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5397e5ac1b56d28307ff3b8620881a53&oe=5C2AD22D


:confused::confused::confused:

[Kickaha]

plus the dead body lying under it is a bit of a deterrent to others.
No it isn't, they will walk across the dead animal underneath the trap to stick their head in it, I did a Rotorua canopy tour where a percentage of profits goes into trapping and at the end of it they go through the trapping and figures of what they get, that was a question I asked, they use the resettable traps and check them every few weeks, they said standard trapping methods would have sent them broke


We cannot trap our way out of this, logistically impossible.
Didn't say we could


It sounds like something they'd be happy to prove.

Perhaps they haven't been given permission.

Any time I have asked any of them they haven't ever replied with an alternative

Bay Bush trust only use trapping but they also say 1080 is very cost effective compared to trapping
http://www.baybushaction.org.nz/Bio1080

[Katman]

Bay Bush trust only use trapping but they also say 1080 is very cost effective compared to trapping


Yes, it appears that everything comes back to cost.

[Woodman]

Yes, it appears that everything comes back to cost.

Value would be a better word.

[Katman]

Value would be a better word.

Well I suppose that depends entirely on one's definition of 'value'.

[Woodman]

Well I suppose that depends entirely on one's definition of 'value'.

Fair enough, but I was meaning $$, bang for buck, and there is only a finite amount of bucks to go around in the society we live in at the moment and 1080 drops are working and are at this time the most cost effective method available.

I would love it if we could just ask the rats, stoats, possums, pigs and deer etc to leave but the blank stares received would be the same after explaining to a anti 1080 campaigner that the bush isn't just there for them to go hunting in.

[Katman]

Fair enough, but I was meaning $$, bang for buck, and there is only a finite amount of bucks to go around in the society we live in at the moment and 1080 drops are working and are at this time the most cost effective method available.

And I've already stated that I'd happily see us pay more for a more humane method.

There's never been any shortage of frivolous governmental spending in the past.

[Katman]

I would love it if we could just ask the rats, stoats, possums, pigs and deer etc to leave but the blank stares received would be the same after explaining to a anti 1080 campaigner that the bush isn't just there for them to go hunting in.

Lovely little nature bush walks are all well and good but I don't think the vast majority of New Zealand's bush is used for a quiet meander on a Sunday afternoon soaking up nature's sights and listening to birds singing.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, it appears that everything comes back to cost.

Not really. As has been covered trapping, no matter how its done just isn't an option in some areas so there will always be a poison involved unless the gene solutions evolve. There isn't another option that works as well in NZ and please don't say that an advanced society should not use such a cruel method because the only other option is to just abandon the bush and walk away which is equally just as cruel. Remember you can walk into a supermarket and by worse poisons like Talon or even fly spray. We have an ant problem in Raumati South so we are all baiting the ants like crazy... Do they deserve a nice death? Fuck off - kill the little pricks...

Where access is possible for trapping there is a shit load of research going on regarding better methods of trapping in the post 1080 era. The traps are all 'on line' so it can be seen which ones have gone off plus there is a study on animal behaviour which is leading to better placement of traps. There has been a lot of learning from all of this BUT again there are huge areas of land that can really only be accessed from the air.

Cost is one thing but its value that matters. If we as a nation value our native birds we will need to actually do some shitty things to preserve them OR walk away and keep a few stuffed ones as a memento. At the end of the day maybe we should just let the pig hunters and their dogs fuckin have it and screw the birds. We would save a fortune... We could put rats and possums on our bank notes.

As a side note - my wife has a horrible condition and she's facing a fucking awful death that's arguably worse that 1080 as it will linger on for years while she just wishes she was dead and looses all dignity. Sure she will get drugs to ease the pain and hopefully clean sheets but is anyone remotely worried about how inhumane that is? Yes they will prop her up in bed and make her look good but do you think an advanced society cares more for a possum than her?? Nope its just a left over religious mind fuck they are too scared to break. Face it - Life is a cunt and it matters fuck all if you are a rat or a possum or a human... It just humans get a nurse to wipe their bum when its the end

[Woodman]

And I've already stated that I'd happily see us pay more for a more humane method.

There's never been any shortage of frivolous governmental spending in the past.

Problem is though, if the cost gets too high then some other faction will demand either a slice of that pie or more of the tax take for their agenda. It is and always has been a balancing act.


Lovely little nature bush walks are all well and good but I don't think the vast majority of New Zealand's bush is used for a quiet meander on a Sunday afternoon soaking up nature's sights and listening to birds singing.

Why does it have to be used for anything at all by humans? Personally i am happy just to know that the birds are there as they should be.

[Katman]

There has been a lot of learning from all of this BUT again there are huge areas of land that can really only be accessed from the air.

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

[mada]

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

Time.

It's faster to mobilise a copter and spray than logistics involved in organising dozens of labourers, traps, transport, OSH etc.

[Woodman]

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

If you are flying over there anyway, why not drop a load on there?

[Paul in NZ]

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

Because its the most effective - to trap you need a shit load of tracks and a shit load of traps and people... Its not just money its time and resources

[Katman]

Its not just money its time and resources

It all comes back to money Paul.

[Woodman]

It all comes back to money Paul.

Sadly Katman, that is the society we live in. It doesn't particularly work, but it is where we are at right now.

[jellywrestler]

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

you try and get some people out working, especially one that takes energy, the dole is to comfy simply

[Paul in NZ]

It all comes back to money Paul.

If you follow it far enough nearly everything does. Money or religion

[husaberg]

No it isn't, they will walk across the dead animal underneath the trap to stick their head in it, I did a Rotorua canopy tour where a percentage of profits goes into trapping and at the end of it they go through the trapping and figures of what they get, that was a question I asked, they use the resettable traps and check them every few weeks, they said standard trapping methods would have sent them broke
Didn't say we could
Any time I have asked any of them they haven't ever replied with an alternative
Bay Bush trust only use trapping but they also say 1080 is very cost effective compared to trapping
http://www.baybushaction.org.nz/Bio1080

you will notice on the adverts for the reset-able kill traps they show video none have more than two possums caught in a single location.
When trap monitoring is done the bodies are removed daily.
but even if it wasnt the case its not a large scale option as they have to be set up in the feild by people.

[Paul in NZ]

I really recommend that you have a read of this...

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/17-09-2018/when-anti-1080-activism-grew-noisy-and-got-ugly/

Even if you don't care about 1080 its a lesson in disruption by the minority using social media...

[Katman]

I really recommend that you have a read of this...

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/17-09-2018/when-anti-1080-activism-grew-noisy-and-got-ugly/

Even if you don't care about 1080 its a lesson in disruption by the minority using social media...

Yes, there are people who are prone to taking activism to extreme measures.

But as that article says, there are also those who pursue perfectly legal avenues via our Court system.

[Woodman]

Doc are killing deer, so are we but that's different. Oh the irony.:weird::weird:

338939

[Paul in NZ]

Doc are killing deer, so are we but that's different. Oh the irony.:weird::weird:

338939

Yup - they get super pissed about it too... The only people who are more pissed are pig hunters who want to be able to run their dogs where and when they want.

[Katman]

Doc are killing deer, so are we but that's different. Oh the irony.

Except hunters tend to do it rather more quickly and humanely than DOC.

[husaberg]

Except hunters tend to do it rather more quickly and humanely than DOC.

Really do you have any evidence that this is the case. Petna dont agree with you.


Pain and Suffering
Many animals endure prolonged, painful deaths when they are injured but not killed by hunters. A study of 80 radio-collared white-tailed deer found that of the 22 deer who had been shot with “traditional archery equipment,” 11 were wounded but not recovered by hunters.7 Twenty percent of foxes who have been wounded by hunters are shot again. Just 10 percent manage to escape, but “starvation is a likely fate” for them, according to one veterinarian.8 A South Dakota Department of Game, Fish and Parks biologist estimates that more than 3 million wounded ducks go “unretrieved” every year.9 A British study of deer hunting found that 11 percent of deer who’d been killed by hunters died only after being shot two or more times and that some wounded deer suffered for more than 15 minutes before dying
https://www.peta.org/issues/wildlife/wildlife-factsheets/sport-hunting-cruel-unnecessary/

http://www.timberhawk.com/gut-shot-deer-what-you-should-do-next/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69QBMN5t6rU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69QBMN5t6rU
Or is it just like you stating there is other methods alternative methods available for control over 20,000 sq kms where this is no roads or tracks.

Also i note how many hunters are killed per year in NZ
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3402113
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102761847/hunter-shot-dead-in-kaimai-range-near-te-aroha
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3502989

[mada]

Except hunters tend to do it rather more quickly and humanely than DOC.

How many hunters get killed or maimed by 1080 each year... versus those misidentifying their targets?

[Katman]

How many hunters get killed or maimed by 1080 each year... versus those misidentifying their targets?

Hunters failing to adequately identify their target is a completely different topic.

[TheDemonLord]

Really do you have any evidence that this is the case. Petna dont agree with you.


http://www.timberhawk.com/gut-shot-deer-what-you-should-do-next/
Or is it just like you stating there is other methods alternative methods available for control over 20,000 sq kms where this is no roads or tracks.


Ah Yes, PETA are bound to be the most un-biased source for any hunting data....

However - a "study" of 80 Animals....
And of the 80, only 22 were hunted with a Bow and Arrow.
And of that 22, only 11 were not finished off.

Now, this is not a justification of bad hunters and poor shot placement - but what is the ratio of Rifle hunters to Bow hunters? I can't find any solid stats - but estimates are around 25:1 or up to 50:1 - so PETA are taking one of the least used methods of Hunting, in order to emphasize their point.

One interesting comment on a Forum (discussing Bow vs Rifle hunting) had this comment (paraphrased):


Even with a Wounded Animal, nothing goes to waste in nature, may not be what people like to hear, but it's the truth.

[husaberg]

Ah Yes, PETA are bound to be the most un-biased source for any hunting data....

However - a "study" of 80 Animals....
And of the 80, only 22 were hunted with a Bow and Arrow.
And of that 22, only 11 were not finished off.

Now, this is not a justification of bad hunters and poor shot placement - but what is the ratio of Rifle hunters to Bow hunters? I can't find any solid stats - but estimates are around 25:1 or up to 50:1 - so PETA are taking one of the least used methods of Hunting, in order to emphasize their point.

One interesting comment on a Forum (discussing Bow vs Rifle hunting) had this comment (paraphrased):

As oppossed to katspam ...........So of the 22 deer half were not killed humanly i hate to break it to you but dude that's 50%.
Considering the number of deaths from people mistakenly shooting humans even those wearing high vis vests its fair to say that target id and shot placement is not high on the priory once buck fever strikes.

[Katman]

Considering the number of deaths from people mistakenly shooting humans even those wearing high vis vests its fair to say that target id and shot placement is not high on the priory once buck fever strikes.

Dude, if you'd like to try getting hunting banned, knock yourself out.

It's not what this thread's about though.

[Woodman]

Except hunters tend to do it rather more quickly and humanely than DOC.

Na they don't, but I was just pointing out how much bollocks the anti 1080 movement is.

[mada]

Hunters failing to adequately identify their target is a completely different topic.

Not when people are suggesting hunters and civilians laying traps in their hunting grounds are the safe and "humane" alternative to 1080...

Instead of choppers dropping 1080, we'll need them all for evacs after falls, accidents, and shootings and search & rescues.

[Woodman]

Dude, if you'd like to try getting hunting banned, knock yourself out.

It's not what this thread's about though.

Actually this thread definitely is about hunting, the anti 1080 movement is about hunting.

[Katman]

Actually this thread definitely is about hunting, the anti 1080 movement is about hunting.

Well my opposition to 1080 has nothing to do with hunting.

[husaberg]

Dude, if you'd like to try getting hunting banned, knock yourself out.

It's not what this thread's about though.
You claim to be interested only in human treatment of animals so thats your agenda only when it suits is it.

I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way an advanced society should deal with an issue?



Well my opposition to 1080 has nothing to do with hunting.
only it seems 90% of the people that protest about 1080 are hunters. the rest are a varous assortment of ban everything idiots and a internet troll from Taupo
http://fishingoutdoors.org/hunting-information/hunting-articles/122-1080-articles/2711-ban-1080-party.html

So isnt it about time you told us all of the other alternative methods

There are viable alternatives.
.

[Woodman]

Well my opposition to 1080 has nothing to do with hunting.

So how was it first brought to your attention? My guess is it started from the hunting community.

[Katman]

So how was it first brought to your attention? My guess is it started from the hunting community.

I seem to remember it originally coming to my attention after seeing videos of unintended victims of 1080.

[mada]

What about the humane treatment of cockroaches, flys, and ants inside homes?

#Baninsecticides

[jasonu]

Yes, it appears that everything comes back to cost.

Doesn't it always?

[Katman]

What about the humane treatment of cockroaches, flys, and ants inside homes?

#Baninsecticides

It probably won't come as a shock to you to learn that I don't use insecticides either.

[Woodman]

I seem to remember it originally coming to my attention after seeing videos of unintended victims of 1080.

So not from hunters then? So you're the one.:laugh:

[Katman]

So not from hunters then? So you're the one.:laugh:

I'm 'the one' what?

[TheDemonLord]

I'm 'the one' what?

Woodman is saying that the video you most likely saw, was made or distributed or highlighted to the wider populace through the efforts of the Hunting community.

If it wasn't, he's implying that you are the original vector for the anti-1080 debate happening at the moment.

[Katman]

Woodman is saying that the video you most likely saw, was made or distributed or highlighted to the wider populace through the efforts of the Hunting community.

Or it was made, distributed or highlighted by the owner of the horse that was in the process of dying.

[mada]

Definitely a lot of humane friendly anti-1080'ers


https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=S9x7OFXhJiU&feature=youtu.be&has_verified=1

[husaberg]

Or it was made, distributed or highlighted by the owner of the horse that was dying.
was it just as dead as this horse or more dead
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/north-otago/valued-horse-shot-dead
or these
https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/wild-horses/

I'd be more inclined to ask how the persons horse gained access to the 1080.
No doubt that information will be glossed over.........

[Katman]

I'd be more inclined to ask how the persons horse gained access to the 1080.

Probably through indiscriminate spreading of the bait.

[husaberg]

Probably through indiscriminate spreading of the bait.
Only thats not how it works the areas near inhabited areas are excluded with wide margins put in place and the drops are GPS tracked generally if domestic animals are killed its becuase they are trespassing on DOC land.
All the areas adjacent the drops the landowners are notified and are shown the maps and sign a form stating they understand.

Nohing to do with the spreading of 1080 is indiscriminate.

On the other side of the coin anti 1080 activist have managed to miraculously "find" 1080 bait even before drops have been made in areas where none was even used. Make out what you will about that.

[Katman]

Only thats not how it works the areas near inhabited areas are excluded with wide margins put in place and the drops are GPS tracked generally if domestic animals are killed its becuase they are trespassing on DOC land.
All the areas adjacent the drops the landowners are notified and are shown the maps and sign a form stating they understand.

Nohing to do with the spreading of 1080 is indiscriminate.

Or maybe the aerial drops aren't carried out with quite the degree of precision that you imagine they are.

[husaberg]

Or maybe the aerial drops aren't carried out with quite the degree of precision that you imagine they are.

Well lets see i know first hand they are and its been verified hundreds of times plus the information is checked after each drop and supposed incident
Yet in nearly all cases it turns out the animals were not where they were meant to be.


any mistake in application made is well recorded as all the drops are tracked.
I will put my long standing first hand information against your opinion especially considering you have shown yourself to be lacking in any understanding of its use and effects thus far.

[Katman]

Well lets see i know first hand they are and its been verified hundreds of times plus the information is checked after each drop and supposed incident
Yet in all cases it turns out the animals were not where they were meant to be.

Fuck you talk some shit.

[husaberg]

Fuck you talk some shit.
note the wording of your post vs mine
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11734355

[Katman]

note the wording of your post vs mine

Dude, you're a self proclaimed expert on any subject that is ever raised in discussion.

Most of us here have managed to figure out you're generally full of shit.

[husaberg]

Dude, you're a self proclaimed expert on any subject that is ever raised in discussion.

Most of us here have managed to figure out you're generally full of shit.

Really conduct a poll then, i will give you a hint i used to do possum monitors after vector control operations here on the coast
plus i have had many at least 20 operations carried out on my own property.
I have also trapped possums.
So what is your experience then?....

[Katman]

So what is your experience then?....

My experience is that you're generally full of shit.

[husaberg]

My experience is that you're generally full of shit.

So it rates up with your general stance on any subject, you actually know nothing other than what you read on conspiracy websites buy still wish to voice your ill considered opinion anyway.
Its like a desperate cry for attention.

much like this one

There are viable alternatives.

SO what are the other viable alternatives on the 20,000 sq KMs of DOC land on the West Coast
especially given our vector density you need a trap every 40 to 100 meters every 4 years

[Woodman]

My experience is that you're generally full of shit.


Generally? Iiiinteresting...........Does that mean you are willing to look into some of husabergs claims about 1080?

[Katman]

Generally? Iiiinteresting...........Does that mean you are willing to look into some of husabergs claims about 1080?

Simple answer......no.

[Woodman]

Simple answer......no.

Then you will fit right in with the anti 1080 loons.

[husaberg]

Then you will fit right in with the anti 1080 loons.
He fitted right in with them even before he started to post about 1080.

[Woodman]

He fitted right in with them even before he started to post about 1080.

I dunno, he started quite reasonable, but just couldn't hold it together once you started posting.

[husaberg]

I dunno, he started quite reasonable, but just couldn't hold it together once you started posting.

He can keep up the charade for longer than a post or two anyway
He definitely was holding something the whole time he posted.
But i am still waiting to hear of all these viable alternatives to 1080 he spoke of.
1080 like it or not is the only viable tool we presently have access to.

[Honest Andy]

But i am still waiting to hear of all these viable alternatives to 1080 he spoke of.
1080 like it or not is the only viable tool we presently have access to.

Gene tech could sort it out with a bit more research.
Of course, the same dickheads who are against 1080 are also against its most obvious alternative :brick:

(that should be good for another ten pages...)

[tigertim20]

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

1. It's controlled and kept away from farms and farm animals
2. economy of scale - f you have a solution that has proven to be effective, why spend additional money running multiple operations?



It all comes back to money Paul.

No.
As has been explained more than once, it comes down to:
1. Accessibility
2. efficiency
3. money

Side note - you keep coming back to the money point so let's pretend for a minute that money was the only issue - my question then becomes " do you really think 1080 deaths are a bigger concern than the farcical state of underfunding facing key areas of national / social concern such as housing, education, healthcare, and so on?


I seem to remember it originally coming to my attention after seeing videos of unintended victims of 1080.

And who do you think likely created and distributed this video?
and before you say the poor loving owner of a horse . . . remember that the 1080 protesters at parliament recently presented with dead animals that were shown to have died from blunt force trauma, and not 1080 as claimed by protesters.


Probably through indiscriminate spreading of the bait.

Can you provide actual evidence, perhaps something peer reviewed or independently proven that shows the spreading is indiscriminate? keyword = independently

[husaberg]

Gene tech could sort it out with a bit more research.
Of course, the same dickheads who are against 1080 are also against its most obvious alternative :brick:

(that should be good for another ten pages...)

Yip there was some very promisng research in turning of their reproductive cycle in a way that is only relevant to marsupials, not to most other mammals.
https://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/42005/biocontrol_of_possums.pdf
The Aussies were a bit concerned about it but the loonies would have utter conniptions.
the problem is if it was delivered say by a bait station you could have killed them while they were there.
but last i heard they were hoping to use a flee or a parasite specific to possums to transmit it.

A similar form of idea could be used for mustelids such as stoats and weasels ferrets as there is a unique feature where they can delay and postpone a pregnancy gestation in times of feed shortages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7014860
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryonic_diapause
if you could turn that on you could cut down their reproduction ability.

[Ruahine]

The 1080 "debate" is no debate as far as I am concerned.

There are currently no viable alternatives for mammalian pest control in most of our backcountry. I volunteer doing pest control in the Waitakeres and I know that the density of bait stations and access lines required makes effective hand baiting/trapping impossible for most areas of NZ.

That said, there are some successful hand baiting/trapping projects being done successfully in more accessible areas (such as the Waitakeres). I have friends involved in trapping being done for Whio (Blue duck) in the Ruahine but the Whio project has the advantage of being based around river valleys which can be accessed on foot and in any event these are also being supported by 1080 drops.

I have seen first hand the difference a 1080 drop makes in improving bird life and if is a choice between saving our native birds and the humane treatment of possums I would choose the birds every time.

However going forward we need alternatives. 1080 is only ever going to be a temporary damage-limitation measure. Perhaps the most promising alternative is a gene drive-based, sterile possum/stoat release. Unfortunately this technology is many years off and in the current NZ legal environment, the release of GMO animals is not likely to be approved. It would be good to see more investment in 1080 alternatives but in the meantime 1080 drops need to continue or there will be nothing left to protect.

There is a technical paper from the royal society on potential for gene drive technology on pest control in NZ which may be of interest.

https://royalsociety.org.nz/assets/Uploads/Gene-editing-in-pest-control-technical-paper.pdf

[Katman]

I have seen first hand the difference a 1080 drop makes in improving bird life and if is a choice between saving our native birds and the humane treatment of possums I would choose the birds every time.

And what effect is 1080 having on the insect populations in our forests and bush?

After all, invertebrates are an essential part of any healthy ecosystem.

[Katman]

1. It's controlled and kept away from farms and farm animals

Tell that to the farmers of the animals who have died of 1080 poisoning.

[sugilite]

I'm no fan of 1080, and I have had a few heated debates with my daughter, a botanical scientist - and acknowledge many of her points.
She has told me of a much less humane poison that is widely used, one can just stroll into Bunnings and buy it! It is called Brodifacoum. It can take weeks and even months to slowly painfully kill a critter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodifacoum
I spent 2017 in Karamea on the West Coast. No shortage of 1080 opposition there. A guy from the buller council came around to tell us of the pending drop - brave thick skinned dude he was. I had a good talk with him, and he admitted it was all about protecting the local cow herds from TB. In other words, no cows would of = no 1080 drop, at least in our area. They been dropping it for a long time, and from my layperson perspective the vermin will regenerate just as fast as the native bird species, so stalemate in my opinion.
When I lived in a Totara stand/forest in Waitahora, Tararua for 15 years (yes - I like living in forests), there was a huge possum problem. My record was running over 12 over the 14 km road leading to the main road, nearly 1 per km! The local council started using this bait that had a cyanide tablet in the middle of quite a hard substance that smelt like crack for possums. The idea was only possums, rats and stoats had the jaw strength to get through it, so were thus the targeted vermin. Over a very short period, no possums were heard from or seen again. The council did it once a year and we barely ever saw possums again. So yes, there is a lot better way to do it than 1080, but it is more expensive. I'm happy to pay it via taxes. Tax tourists to help pay for it too, actually live up to clean green advertising hype. Way better than the forest I lived in Karamea that went dead silent days after the pre-mentioned drop - it was just horrible.
Caveat - usual KB patrons hammering on about providing peer approved evidence can fuck right off. I lived in a forest on the West Coast (yes really) for 8 months before the drop, and listened with much joy to all the bell birds, tuis and others every morning. After the drop - NOTHING. While living in the forest in Waitahora, there was never a drop in bird song after the dispensing of the more expensive poison.

[Swoop]

Only thats not how it works the areas near inhabited areas are excluded with wide margins ...
I wondered about the proposed drop in the Hunua ranges, where they stated that the drops would be 50m away from boundaries.
That is a very small distance, couple that with any wind drifts and the potential for baits to go off-target increases.

[Katman]

.....generally if domestic animals are killed its becuase they are trespassing on DOC land.


And if domestic animals are "trespassing on DOC land" it doesn't sound like that land is particularly 'inaccessible'.

[husaberg]

I wondered about the proposed drop in the Hunua ranges, where they stated that the drops would be 50m away from boundaries.
That is a very small distance, couple that with any wind drifts and the potential for baits to go off-target increases.

You dont get wind draft with helicopters as they have strong downforce.
they also dont apply in windy conditions
The baits are also heavy and sifted.
If you ever get the oportunity watch a helicopter spraying out a paddock. They are sub meter accurate.
The local health authority decides on the set backs.
Most i have seen are at least 80-100m


here is some water data.
https://www.niwa.co.nz/publications/wa/water-atmosphere-2-february-2011/water-safe-after-1080-drop

[Ruahine]

And what effect is 1080 having on the insect populations in our forests and bush?

After all, invertebrates are an essential part of any healthy ecosystem.


I am aware of a few NZ studies looking at insects and 1080. Two showed no difference in the numbers of insects and other invertebrates before and after a 1080 drop, however they are old studies, some using carrot baits which are no longer used.

https://newzealandecology.org/system/files/articles/NZJEcol28_1_63.pdf

Another study fed ants with 1080 cereal baits and found a modest increase in mortality but overall showed the risk of to ants as part of a 1080 drop was negligible and also that the risk of secondary poisoning to birds eating ants was also negligible.

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2271

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2070

Another study showed that invertebrate levels around a 1080 bait were reduced compared to control baits, however whether this was avoidance or toxicity was not determined and invertebrate levels recovered within days.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03014223.1999.9518197?needAccess=true


There is also good evidence demonstrating that the numbers of native Powelliphanta snails improve dramatically post-1080, which is not surprising given they are predated by possums and rats.

[jellywrestler]

using carrot baits which are no longer used.

has anybody thought of all the poor snowmen who had their noses ripped off their faces so this could go ahead?

[husaberg]

Tell that to the farmers of the animals who have died of 1080 poisoning.
You really are showing you lack of understanding, the majority of the farmers support the use of 1080 (the few that dont suport it are avid hunters)their continued livelihood depends on effective TB control, It is them that contribute the money to control TB after all.
DOC do the rest and they use tax payer money, but they have no interset in TB control

Maybe you should talk to some farmers who has lost there whole herd to TB i can supply a few names for you.
The farmers who have lost animals to genuine mistakes are fully compensated for their losses.


And if domestic animals are "trespassing on DOC land" it doesn't sound like that land is particularly 'inaccessible'.
You seem to be confusing animals with humans and possibilities with practicalities.

I am still waiting for you go about naming all the posible large scale alternatives you mentioned on the first page


Cool then you will offer some viable alternatives it should be fun especially considering how little you know about 1080.


There are viable alternatives.

Yes, they might be more expensive - but that was the whole point behind post #1.

(And by the way, I'd feed 1080 to you in a heartbeat).

[Katman]

The farmers who have lost animals to genuine mistakes are fully compensated for their losses.

In the last case I read about, a farmer was offered 8 bales of silage for the loss of 8 two year old heifers. Heifers that the farmer estimated to be worth $2000 each.


You seem to be confusing animals with humans and possibilities with practicalities.

You're the one who keeps banging on about how inaccessible parts of New Zealand are. And I've already conceded that if they restricted their aerial operations to areas that truly were 'inaccessible', it would be a start towards finding some middle ground.

But the fact that stock appear to be able to wander onto certain areas doesn't suggest that they're 'inaccessible' by any stretch of the imagination.

[jafagsx250]

What sort of research is under way for deer repellent? Doc will never do it cos they're cunts and want all deer gone. Which will never ever happen.

But if they did. Most opposition to it would evaporate over night.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

[husaberg]

In the last case I read about, a farmer was offered 8 bales of silage for the loss of 8 two year old heifers. Heifers that the farmer estimated to be worth $2000 each.

You're the one who keeps banging on about how inaccessible parts of New Zealand are. And I've already conceded that if they restricted their aerial operations to areas that truly were 'inaccessible', it would be a start towards finding some middle ground.

But the fact that stock appear to be able to wander onto certain areas doesn't suggest that they're 'inaccessible' by any stretch of the imagination.

Go on a show the account then.
I will give you a hint farmers are generally offered silage as compensation to exclude stock from areas to cary out operations.
Not to cover the death of animals.
You opinion regarding what or what isnt accessable is irelevent you dont get a choice in the mater you dont have any experence as you dont even really contribute much other than your ill consiered ill thought out opinion.

Personally i are still waiting for your viable alternatives you claimed existed earlier on for these inaccessable areas

[Woodman]

And if domestic animals are "trespassing on DOC land" it doesn't sound like that land is particularly 'inaccessible'.

Now you are mixing two separate conversations.

If farmers can't control their stock then its the farmers fault if their animals wander into doc land. Same with hunters dogs that get poisoned by 1080. An unwatched wandering dog is a predator so 1080 is doing its job.

[Katman]

https://kapitiindependentnews.net.nz/mike-meads-honest-scientist/

[Katman]

Now you are mixing two separate conversations.

No I'm not.

I'm simply pointing that if stock have wandered onto DOC land it can hardly be called 'inaccessible'.

Did you go to the same school as the Berk?

[husaberg]

No I'm not.

I'm simply pointing that if stock have wandered onto DOC land it can hardly be called 'inaccessible'.

Did you go to the same school as the Berk?
No one has ever said the areas were inaccessable to "animals" thats the whole point in doing the vector controls you dullard
Where is this account where a farmer who lost stock was offered a pitifull ammount of silage as compensation for his loss of 10 heifers.
Go on show it to us all.
Id would be intersted to see this third or forth hand information especially if its backed by a toxicollogy report stating the cause of death

[Katman]

So if it's a criminal offence to kill a native bird, how come DOC gets to do it with complete impunity?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11749165

[Woodman]

No I'm not.



Did you go to the same school as the Berk?

Yes you are, and I may have gone to the same school as Husaberg.

[Katman]

....and I may have gone to the same school as Husaberg.

It shows.

:facepalm:

[Woodman]

So if it's a criminal offence to kill a native bird, how come DOC gets to do it with complete impunity?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11749165

Would they be just as culpable if they didn't drop 1080 and the predators killed even more birds than the 1080?

[Katman]

Would they be just as culpable if they didn't drop 1080 and the predators killed even more birds than the 1080?

The legislation deals with killing a native species - not failing to save it.

[FJRider]

So if it's a criminal offence to kill a native bird, how come DOC gets to do it with complete impunity?



Section 41. Ministers general Powers ... that should cover it.

The policy of ... if protected species are accidentally injured or killed during the eradication of harmful species of wildlife may be (obviously is) allowed with the Ministers approval. ALL such eradication operations have to be approved by the Minister.


http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1953/0031/latest/DLM277820.html?search=ts_act%40bill%40regulation%4 0deemedreg_Wildlife+Act+1953_resel_25_a&p=1


(c) co-ordinate the policies and activities of departments of State, local authorities, and public bodies in relation to the protection, management, control, and conservation of wildlife and the eradication of harmful species of wildlife:

[jellywrestler]

So if it's a criminal offence to kill a native bird, how come DOC gets to do it with complete impunity?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11749165

maybe the same as the kaikoura road repair crews who could kill seals in certain circumstances....

[FJRider]

No I'm not.

I'm simply pointing that if stock have wandered onto DOC land it can hardly be called 'inaccessible'.

Did you go to the same school as the Berk?

Perhaps the owners of stock wandering on to DOC areas should be prosecuted for endangering a native wildlife habitat.

Property owners near any pest eradication schemes have to be notified so as be able to be able to keep stock out of the drop zone/danger area. Some property owners have in the past ... intentionally allowed stock onto DOC land for publicity purposes after they are "found" dead.

Many parts of the south island west coast bush is inaccessible ... 20 meters off the tar-seal. Cattle (just like deer) can manage most lowland parts.

[Katman]

Cattle (just like deer) can manage most lowland parts.

As can experienced bushmen.

[FJRider]

As can experienced bushmen.

Carrying how many possum traps ... ??? and/or how many Kg's of poison bait ... ??? and even then having to slash their way through with a machete.

If those "Experienced bushman" want to cover any distance ... they need to carry their own gear too. Most can't be bothered trapping very far into the west coast bush as it's not worth the effort for the $$$ return ... and bugger all area baited. Hardly effective pest control.

Most prefer to just get dropped/picked up ... by chopper on the tops ... With just rifle and pack and go through the lower scrub (if they have to) on the way out.

[mada]

https://stuffednz.com/three-dead-moa-found-after1080-drop/

Bloody doc killing the moa.

#ban1080

[Woodman]

The legislation deals with killing a native species - not failing to save it.

Well thank fuck whoever decided to use 1080, did use 1080 instead of fucking around trying to please all the handwringers like yourself. :brick:

[Katman]

Well thank fuck whoever decided to use 1080, did use 1080 instead of fucking around trying to please all the handwringers like yourself. :brick:

I doubt the dead Keas agree with you.

[sidecar bob]

I doubt the dead Keas agree with you.

Thank Christ the Maoris rendered the Moa extinct, at least we can't blame 1080 for that.

[Woodman]

I doubt the dead Keas agree with you.

Yet the kea lady in kahurangi is pro 1080 even though she is well aware that some keas have died from 1080, but the kea population has increased dramatically due to 1080. You see she actually knows how it actually is.

[skippa1]

Nice to see debate about the issues but i still dont see a viable alternative and to cease 1080 drops without would seem to be neglegent to me.

[Katman]

Nice to see debate about the issues but i still dont see a viable alternative and to cease 1080 drops without would seem to be neglegent to me.

I suppose it begs the question 'just how much effort is really going into looking for an alternative - or how an alternative could be made to work?'

[skippa1]

I suppose it begs the question 'just how much effort is really going into looking for an alternative - or how an alternative could be made to work?'
All relevant. I guess my concern is that the protests focus on cessation without that alternative.....and not only that, they threaten violence and uncontrolled interference with vehicles, choppers etc.

[Katman]

All relevant. I guess my concern is that the protests focus on cessation without that alternative.....and not only that, they threaten violence and uncontrolled interference with vehicles, choppers etc.

And as I've already stated, looking to switch to alternative methods in areas where they could easily be implemented would show a readiness to look for compromise.

Or have we really become a society where compromise is a thing of the past?

[nzspokes]

Thank Christ the Maoris rendered the Moa extinct, at least we can't blame 1080 for that.

You missed post #195 then.....

Locally 1080 is being blamed as the cause of Kauri die back. :blink:

[skippa1]

And as I've already stated, looking to switch to alternative methods in areas where they could easily be implemented would show a readiness to look for compromise.

Or have we really become a society where compromise is a thing of the past?
Which alternative method?

[husaberg]

And as I've already stated, looking to switch to alternative methods in areas where they could easily be implemented would show a readiness to look for compromise.

Or have we really become a society where compromise is a thing of the past?
No you said there are viable alternatives to 1080 but then failed to tell us what they were. You also claimed (falsely) its the most inhuman method


I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way an advanced society should deal with an issue?


There are viable alternatives.

Yes, they might be more expensive - but that was the whole point behind post #1.

(And by the way, I'd feed 1080 to you in a heartbeat).

[Katman]

Which alternative method?

Trapping.

As I've said, not all areas that are subjected to aerial drops can be described as 'inaccessible'.

[skippa1]

Trapping.

As I've said, not all areas that are subjected to aerial drops can be described as 'inaccessible'.
Trapping isnt a real alternative

[husaberg]

Trapping.

As I've said, not all areas that are subjected to aerial drops can be described as 'inaccessible'.

You have also said that there is viable alternatives to our use of 1080
all you prove by your statements is you dont actually know what you are talking about.

[Katman]

Trapping isnt a real alternative

Well it's certainly not if you approach it with that mindset.

[Woodman]

And as I've already stated, looking to switch to alternative methods in areas where they could easily be implemented would show a readiness to look for compromise.

Or have we really become a society where compromise is a thing of the past?

They are looking into the genetic approach, (which will also upset the hunters/anti1080 loons) and in a lot of areas e.g. Kahurangi the 1080 is dropped every three years and in between drops the areas are trapped and monitored.

[Katman]

They are looking into the genetic approach, (which will also upset the hunters/anti1080 loons)......

How so?

If the pests are destined for extermination anyway I fail to see why anyone would object to them being genetically sterilised.

[skippa1]

Well it's certainly not if you approach it with that mindset.
Done a bit of trapping have you? Because i have. Where did you do it? I did in the coromandel, Ureweras and Waikarimoana. Interested in what you base your opinion on.

[Katman]

Interested in what you base your opinion on.

Conversations with my ex-neighbour who was a possum trapper.

[FJRider]

Conversations with my ex-neighbour who was a possum trapper.



How many did he get in a week ... ???

[Katman]

How many did he get in a week ... ???

Well he didn't kill any Keas. I know that much.

[skippa1]

Conversations with my ex-neighbour who was a possum trapper.
I did it....first hand. I stand by my comments based on fact.

[husaberg]

Well he didn't kill any Keas. I know that much.
But he did catch domestic cats, Wekas and kiwi.


Well he didn't kill any Keas. I know that much.
So you have no first hand expperience
Have you ever had to bash a possum to death with a pipe or hammer while it was coaught in a trap.



I'm all for protecting native species but is choosing the most inhumane method, simply because it's the cheapest option, really the way an advanced society should deal with an issue?
Note the rating for humaneness of traps vs 1080 is 5 vs 6.
Note all traps have to be checked within 12 hours of of dawn.




I'll pay for it out of my taxes - just like everyone else will.

And yes, I'm happy to pay more towards an alternative to the callous and indiscriminate poisoning of our environment and it's inhabitants.

Note traps are indiscriminate in what they catch.
Note traps are not an option for remote areas
That are barely a option in non remote areas as you have to carry so many different types one for possums one for rats one for mustilids

[skippa1]

Well he didn't kill any Keas. I know that much.
Do you really?

[Katman]

I did it....first hand.

So did he.

[skippa1]

So did he.
But you didnt....youre not talking first hand....i am

[Katman]

Do you really?

Should I hit him with an OIA request?

[Katman]

But you didnt....youre not talking first hand....i am

So it's your word against his.

It doesn't really settle the argument though, does it?

[FJRider]

Well he didn't kill any Keas. I know that much.

That he knew of ... and if did ... probably wouldn't tell you.

[skippa1]

So it's your word against his.

It doesn't really settle the argument though, does it?
No....but it casts some doubt over any second hand "facts" quoted

[husaberg]

So it's your word against his.

It doesn't really settle the argument though, does it?
No its skipas word against yours and yours is hearsay at best and you are a egg that often makes up shit.

[FJRider]

I doubt the dead Keas agree with you.

The dead Kea's probably didn't say much about it ... ??? :shifty:

[Katman]

The dead Kea's probably didn't say much about it ... ??? :shifty:

No shit Einstein.

[FJRider]

No shit Einstein.

You did appear to believe that Keas could talk ... AND hold an opinion ... <_<

[Woodman]

How so?

If the pests are destined for extermination anyway I fail to see why anyone would object to them being genetically sterilised.

I was referring to deer, they are also pests.

[skippa1]

Bit of a mute point really....unless youve done it, not really qualified to comment....cough...cough

[Ruahine]

I suppose it begs the question 'just how much effort is really going into looking for an alternative - or how an alternative could be made to work?'



There is a pest control project being run in the Perth Valley which is using a mixture of 1080 drops and trapping. The plan is to use 1080 to remove the possums and rely on the river barriers/trapping to prevent re invasion. Hopefully it works...




The company that is doing it is quite innovative.

http://zip.org.nz/findings/

[Katman]

Bit of a mute point really....unless youve done it, not really qualified to comment....cough...cough

Refer post #74.

[skippa1]

Refer post #74.
What....its not a competition? So dont compete. You dont have first hand experience...why act like an expert?

[Katman]

What....its not a competition? So dont compete.

My apologies.

I thought we were simply engaging in discussion.

[skippa1]

My apologies.

I thought we were simply engaging in discussion.
Apology accepted

[FJRider]

My apologies.

I thought we were simply engaging in discussion.

Your part of the discussion is hardly engaging ... ;)

Amusing ... :yes:

Maybe those dead possums you were talking to ... were lying ... :killingme

[Katman]

I was referring to deer, they are also pests.

And look how a plan to eradicate deer turned into a wide-spread farming industry.

Sometimes it takes a bit of thinking outside the box.

[mashman]

You did appear to believe that Keas could talk ... AND hold an opinion ... <_<

Of course they talk. That it isn't english shouldn't matter. Try keep your linguistic prejudice in check eh.

[jafagsx250]

I was referring to deer, they are also pests.Bugger off. They're more valuable than you think. Especially for the region's. If they're gone they'll suffer. Less food for poor people around and less money in their economy. People who currently spend millions of dollars on deer and other game animals would never spend that much on birds.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

[Woodman]

Bugger off. They're more valuable than you think. Especially for the region's. If they're gone they'll suffer. Less food for poor people around and less money in their economy. People who currently spend millions of dollars on deer and other game animals would never spend that much on birds.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

Just attract a different sort of person who are willing to spend millions on birds. Animals don't have to be shot to enjoy them.

[Woodman]

And look how a plan to eradicate deer turned into a wide-spread farming industry.

Sometimes it takes a bit of thinking outside the box.

Yeah, like the possum fur industry where possums were released deliberately into the bush to increase their numbers for the trappers. Do you support battery farming possums?

[jafagsx250]

Just attract a different sort of person who are willing to spend millions on birds. Animals don't have to be shot to enjoy them.We already do. But I would never spend my hard earned on bird watching. But people do on hunting. Deer are much more interesting animals.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

Yeah, like the possum fur industry where possums were released deliberately into the bush to increase their numbers for the trappers. Do you support battery farming possums?

Are you talking about back in the 60's like this article mentions?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/agribusiness/82831356/Possum-industry-works-towards-its-own-demise

And as you'll see, it's not just the fur that has value - but the meat also.

And no, I don't support battery farming anything.

[jafagsx250]

You can sell the carcass for 4 bucks a possum to dog food processors

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

[husaberg]

Yeah, like the possum fur industry where possums were released deliberately into the bush to increase their numbers for the trappers. Do you support battery farming possums?
A guy here actually farmed them here in the late 70's it was cheaper and easier than going to catch them.

[husaberg]

In the last case I read about, a farmer was offered 8 bales of silage for the loss of 8 two year old heifers. Heifers that the farmer estimated to be worth $2000 each.



You're the one who keeps banging on about how inaccessible parts of New Zealand are. And I've already conceded that if they restricted their aerial operations to areas that truly were 'inaccessible', it would be a start towards finding some middle ground.

But the fact that stock appear to be able to wander onto certain areas doesn't suggest that they're 'inaccessible' by any stretch of the imagination.

According to your fav anti 1080 site this is the farmers in te kuiti



No I'm not.

I'm simply pointing that if stock have wandered onto DOC land it can hardly be called 'inaccessible'.

Did you go to the same school as the Berk?


Tell that to the farmers of the animals who have died of 1080 poisoning.
Their own words

Owners of a dry stock property near Te Kuiti, Paula and Mark Stone, said they were approached by MPI to agree to the 1080 drop on their property - although MPI said it was DOC who approached the farmers - which they did after an official visited them for a meeting.
The couple confirmed that DOC had contacted them two weeks prior to the drop to tell them to move cattle which they did.
The farmers whose cows might have been killed by 1080 says it's possible the animals escaped into the area where the poison was dropped.
Mrs Stone said the cattle had been let into the bush area in the past where the drop occurred.
"By the bush area there's a track and there's open paddocks in that area and so we do allow them in there, but all winter that gate was secured."
While she said it was not certain the animals had escaped into the operation area, it was a possibility and when DOC visited their property to inspect the dead cattle, they walked the boundary of the paddock and found the fence that had been secured had been damaged.
"But it is likely that they've gone into that area, yes it is very likely."
she confirmed no baits had been found in the actual paddock where the cattle died.


DOC Operations Director David Speirs said staff had been to the site and all the evidence pointed to the animals escaping on to pasture in the drop zone.
"The gate in question was secured to a post by a piece of wire around its middle, and it's rotated around that piece of wire. The gate wasn't well secured at all."
No bait was found in the paddock where the cows were found dead, he said.
A 500kg animal would have to eat 22 or 23 baits to get a toxic dose, but it wasn't impossible a cow would eat that much. The drop rate is 300 baits per hectare.
GPS-based data showing where the helicopter flew and the follow-up on the ground confirmed the baits were dropped where they were supposed to go.


Third parties make use of these kind of incidents to fuel opposition to 1080, he said.
"The tragedy of this is ... it distracts from the real message, which is that we're trying to save New Zealand's biodiversity.
"We will lose the battle if we don't use tools like 1080.


Maybe Katman will man up and post what was written on the anti 1080 site as oppsed to what actually happened.

[Katman]

Their own words

Why are they doing aerial drops on areas that could easily be done on foot?

[husaberg]

Why are they doing aerial drops on areas that could easily be done on foot?
It Says you you need to learn what "accessible"actually means humans are not cattle or deer or possums
also there are areas where natural hazards mean they are not suitable for ground control operations.
You would know this if you had any actual experience.

I see you ignore that what you read on the anti 1080 turns out to be utter 3 hand horse shit.
Post a link to your original information

[Katman]

It Says you you need to learn what "accessible"actually means humans are not cattle or deer or possums
also there are areas where natural hazards mean they are not suitable for ground control operations.

David Speirs said the animals escaped onto pasture in the drop zone.

What exactly makes pasture 'inaccessible' to humans?