LAMS bike with slip on aftermarket exhaust ...

[liam_san123]

I recently picked up a Kawasaki Ninja 300 2015 from Red Baron in Auckland and it came with a coffmans slip on exhaust system. I’ve been told that the bike is not LAMS approved when the exhaust is attached, thus meaning I removed the exhaust and put on the stock exhaust to avoid any legal trouble. Also what are the advantages of having the exhaust on there other than the sound?

My question is do you guys actually think the police would care or even notice?


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[gonzo_akl]

I recently picked up a Kawasaki Ninja 300 2015 from Red Baron in Auckland and it came with a coffmans slip on exhaust system. I’ve been told that the bike is not LAMS approved when the exhaust is attached, thus meaning I removed the exhaust and put on the stock exhaust to avoid any legal trouble. Also what are the advantages of having the exhaust on there other than the sound?

My question is do you guys actually think the police would care or even notice?


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Hi,

It is not so much the police that you'll need to worry about but the insurance company that your bike is covered by. below is a quote from the Protecta FAQ.

Q, Is my bike still LAMS approved if it is modified.
A. No, unfortunately. NZTA have confirmed that LAMS approved motorcycles need to be in factory condition as produced by the manufacturer. There is more information on their website but the key point they reinforced in a communication to us is this paragraph:

[I]If you are a rider on a learner or restricted motorcycle licence, it is your responsibility to ensure you are riding a LAMS-approved motorcycle, as produced by the manufacturer. If in doubt, seek confirmation from the manufacturer's agent or dealership. If you are unsure who to contact, details for all major motorcycle importers are available on the Motor Industry Association website.

Please note that the highlighting above was provided by NZTA in their communication to help emphasize their point. The most common modification we see are aftermarket exhausts; please be aware that putting an aftermarket exhaust on your LAMS motorcycle will mean that you can no longer legally ride it on a learner or restricted licence, and we cannot offer you Full Cover insurance if you cannot legally ride your motorcycle.
This modification rule does not apply for motorcycles under 250cc as they don’t need to be LAMS approved, so long as they are not on the LAMS prohibited list. Nor does the modification rule affect riders on their full licence, as they don’t need to adhere to the LAMS rules.
For the purposes of insuring a LAMS motorcycle, a modification is deemed to be a change to any parts that were originally supplied as part of the motorcycle by the manufacturer. If you have added something to the bike that has not involved the removal or modification of a part of the original motorcycle, then we deem it an accessory and this will not stop us from offering you Full Cover.

it seems a bit irresponsible on Red Baron's part to sell a bike to you if they knew that you don't hold a full licence. I was actually in there the other day and noticed that a R3 had a pipe as well.

to answer the other part of your question, it is all about the sound, any performance gain is minimal.

[Dadpole]

Reading that, it appears that something like replacing a clutch lever or indicator with a non-factory item in a no-no. I can't wonder how many used LAMS bikes would fail that test.

[liam_san123]

Hi,

It is not so much the police that you'll need to worry about but the insurance company that your bike is covered by. below is a quote from the Protecta FAQ.

Q, Is my bike still LAMS approved if it is modified.
A. No, unfortunately. NZTA have confirmed that LAMS approved motorcycles need to be in factory condition as produced by the manufacturer. There is more information on their website but the key point they reinforced in a communication to us is this paragraph:

[I]If you are a rider on a learner or restricted motorcycle licence, it is your responsibility to ensure you are riding a LAMS-approved motorcycle, as produced by the manufacturer. If in doubt, seek confirmation from the manufacturer's agent or dealership. If you are unsure who to contact, details for all major motorcycle importers are available on the Motor Industry Association website.

Please note that the highlighting above was provided by NZTA in their communication to help emphasize their point. The most common modification we see are aftermarket exhausts; please be aware that putting an aftermarket exhaust on your LAMS motorcycle will mean that you can no longer legally ride it on a learner or restricted licence, and we cannot offer you Full Cover insurance if you cannot legally ride your motorcycle.
This modification rule does not apply for motorcycles under 250cc as they don’t need to be LAMS approved, so long as they are not on the LAMS prohibited list. Nor does the modification rule affect riders on their full licence, as they don’t need to adhere to the LAMS rules.
For the purposes of insuring a LAMS motorcycle, a modification is deemed to be a change to any parts that were originally supplied as part of the motorcycle by the manufacturer. If you have added something to the bike that has not involved the removal or modification of a part of the original motorcycle, then we deem it an accessory and this will not stop us from offering you Full Cover.

it seems a bit irresponsible on Red Baron's part to sell a bike to you if they knew that you don't hold a full licence. I was actually in there the other day and noticed that a R3 had a pipe as well.

to answer the other part of your question, it is all about the sound, any performance gain is minimal.

Thanks for the response.

I asked Red Baron to put on the stock exhaust, which they did. They did inform me that it would not be LAMS approved.


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[rastuscat]

Under the LAMS rule, manufacturers submit their bike specs to NZTA, who calculate the power to weight ratio, and then stamp the approval. The bike goes on the LAMS list.

To protect themselves, NZTA rules say that at any stage, if you reduce the weight of the bike or increase the power output, that varies the power to weight ratio, and voids the LAMS approval.

Given that the whole point of the after market exhaust is to either increase the power output or reduce the weight, that's why the rules exclude such a modification.

If the entire point of the after market exhaust is noise, get an iPod.

An accessory clutch lever or after market mirror might also fall foul of this rule, but that would be extremely unlikely to be actioned, even by an insurance company.

[AllanB]

The irony is a 200kg or 55kg person can ride the same LAMS bike, but they get pissy if you drop a couple kg of motorcycle weight with a pipe or gain 1.75 hp with the same can.

The measurable weight loss of the pipe would be no different to the poo weigh of the 200kg person having their morning crap.


So do what I do before a ride - have a massive shit, it's a guaranteed performance upgrade and cheaper than fancy carbon fibre parts.

[liam_san123]

The irony is a 200kg or 55kg person can ride the same LAMS bike, but they get pissy if you drop a couple kg of motorcycle weight with a pipe or gain 1.75 hp with the same can.

The measurable weight loss of the pipe would be no different to the poo weigh of the 200kg person having their morning crap.


So do what I do before a ride - have a massive shit, it's a guaranteed performance upgrade and cheaper than fancy carbon fibre parts.

Yeah, I completely agree. The system is a bit weird to be honest. I’ve heard even if you change for example your clutch and brake levers with shorty levers that your bike technically isn’t LAMS approved anymore, it’s ridiculous. I want to put my coffmans usa slip on exhaust on my bike, but am afraid that if I ever come off and total my bike I won’t get insurance, as another user said the only gain with putting on a slip on exhaust is the sound. There is little to no performance gain, if any.


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[neil.]

want to make it worse? the NZTA website page with the details of LAMS compliance now says this

"Any motorcycle modified in a way that increases or decreases its power-to-weight ratio is no longer LAMS-compliant"


Sooo, making the damn thing SLOWER is also now prohibited.

[SaferRides]

What concerns me is the next step in this BS, which is to stop modifications to ANY bike.

[FJRider]

Reading that, it appears that something like replacing a clutch lever or indicator with a non-factory item in a no-no. I can't wonder how many used LAMS bikes would fail that test.

Wonder no more ... A non-factory item fitted for the purpose of reducing weight and/or increasing engine power is their target ... clutch levers and indicators don't get a mention. Nor should they as they are not the issue.

[FJRider]

What concerns me is the next step in this BS, which is to stop modifications to ANY bike.

This is the situation in some countries overseas, Singapore is one ... custom rims and tires ... NO engine/body modifications at all. (repainting is ok ... within modest limits)

[FJRider]

Yeah, I completely agree. The system is a bit weird to be honest.

Perhaps you should restrict yourself to the old "Learner class" of motorcycles. ... under 250 cc's. only ... 52 owner 35 year old machines with barely enough compression to actually start/run.

Your choices are very much improved ... so no reason to whinge at all.

[WALRUS]

We're pretty chilled with modifications to LAMS machines. At the end of the day, the weight saved with some chinesium levers and power gained from some ghastly eBay special cannon exhaust are so minimal it doesn't make a difference.

That being said, more often than not, aftermarket exhausts are loud and draw attention to you so if Mr and Mrs Policemans don't like them and you're not supposed to have them, I'd probably take it off, personally. At the end of the day, it's your call, I don't know the full extent of your laws and the attitudes of your local bobbies but I prefer to go along the mentality of "as least attention as possible, please"

[jellywrestler]

Given that the whole point of the after market exhaust is to either increase the power output or reduce the weight, that's why the rules exclude such a modification. or cause the stock ones are hideously oversized and expensive to replace maybe?

[jellywrestler]

.. clutch levers and indicators don't get a mention. Nor should they as they are not the issue.

and what if that shorty clutch or brake lever results in a bit more difficulty in a learner having full control over their bike? like a non adjustable one as opposed to one that can be set up for the users hand span?

[FJRider]

and what if that shorty clutch or brake lever results in a bit more difficulty in a learner having full control over their bike? like a non adjustable one as opposed to one that can be set up for the users hand span?

It's (usually) standard practice to fit such (adjustable) levers to your bike ... to make it easier to use (if they're not fitted as standard) ... not the other way round ... :rolleyes:
And it would be a vindictive plod that would argue their legality ... :blank:

But ... If you decide to fit parts to your bike ... which makes it more difficult to use ... that does not mean it's illegal.
It just means you're an idiot ... :whistle:

Do you have a point other than that ... ??? :scratch:

[jellywrestler]

It's (usually) standard practice to fit such (adjustable) levers to your bike ... to make it easier to use (if they're not fitted as standard) ... not the other way round ... :rolleyes:
And it would be a vindictive plod that would argue their legality ... :blank:

But ... If you decide to fit parts to your bike ... which makes it more difficult to use ... that does not mean it's illegal.
It just means you're an idiot ... :whistle:

Do you have a point other than that ... ??? :scratch:

often learner riders are idiots, why not make a submission to whoever writes the rules and see how far you get?

[FJRider]

often learner riders are idiots, why not make a submission to whoever writes the rules and see how far you get?

Why don't YOU make a submission directly to the idiots ... and there is No law (that I'm aware of) against being an idiot ... :blank:


STILL ... waiting for your point ... :whistle:

[jellywrestler]

But ... If you decide to fit parts to your bike ... which makes it more difficult to use ... that does not mean it's illegal.
and if an insurance company finds that an accident was caused by someone who couldn't operate the brake or clutch in time to stop it what then? remember too, learners often don't know the dynamics of good gloves, got a mate that gave them some oversize cast offs, nor does any bike shop i know take the time to set up the controls to the rider, think harder and you'll see what i mean.
my first gloves were sheepskin lined mittens, i had no idea at the time and no-one to help me.
lams has to have a line drawn in the sand somewhere, like all rules.

[FJRider]

and if an insurance company finds that an accident was caused by someone who couldn't operate the brake or clutch in time to stop it what then? remember too, learners often don't know the dynamics of good gloves, got a mate that gave them some oversize cast offs, nor does any bike shop i know take the time to set up the controls to the rider, think harder and you'll see what i mean.
my first gloves were sheepskin lined mittens, i had no idea at the time and no-one to help me.
lams has to have a line drawn in the sand somewhere, like all rules.

If the learner fitted it ... his problem. As I said ... no law against stupidity. And you asked this question earlier ... do you like repeating yourself ... ??

Asking the same question twice and expecting a different answer each time is stupid ... would you not agree ... ??

Hurry up with your point please ... if you have one ... <_<

[jellywrestler]

It's (usually) standard practice to fit such (adjustable) levers to your bike ... to make it easier to use (if they're not fitted as standard) ... not the other way round ... :rolleyes:


you really don't get it, most of the world is price driven, if there's a seven dollar brake lever on trademe a kids going to buy it as it's the cheapest and they don't know what adjustable ones do, they also won't know how to set it up either, replacing a clutch or brake lever may alter the charateristics of the bike, making it better or worserer.
as for pipes, most are ok but some cause erratic performance especially if the bike isn't tuned for it, while there may be more power there may be other issues,
do you actually own or have ever owned or worked on a motorcycle as you seem pretty thick?

[liam_san123]

why are you homies arguing, chill we are all friends here


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[jellywrestler]

why are you homies arguing, chill we are all friends here


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it's a discussion and FJRider has forgotten his meds again

[OddDuck]

why are you homies arguing, chill we are all friends here

I support the sentiment but unfortunately it's KB - you'll get flare ups every now and again

The bike's going to be great to learn on. Come resale time, you'll get decent coin for it in stock condition (which it sounds like you've done).

Modding a LAMs? Mmm... yeah I get that people want results right here right now, but even without the insurance / legal situation, mods now cost you your open license bike options later, dollars count!

[FJRider]

you really don't get it, most of the world is price driven, if there's a seven dollar brake lever on trademe a kids going to buy it as it's the cheapest and they don't know what adjustable ones do, they also won't know how to set it up either, replacing a clutch or brake lever may alter the charateristics of the bike, making it better or worserer.
as for pipes, most are ok but some cause erratic performance especially if the bike isn't tuned for it, while there may be more power there may be other issues,
do you actually own or have ever owned or worked on a motorcycle as you seem pretty thick?

NO ... YOU don't get "IT" ...

Changing the subject to pipes/clutch to try and prove a point (and failed)

Idiots happen and the law doesn't (wont) excuse them for the end result because of it.

I've seen plenty of "Idiot" mods/fixes to a bike in the interest of "Saving money" (Might have done a few myself) ... is there a law against fitting the wrong part ... ???

Still waiting for your point ...

[jellywrestler]

Still waiting for your point ... it's how the insurance companies my see it, it's also throwing other things into the discussion pot, that's all it's a quiet friday night and i'm polishing stainless dome nuts for my digger, hands can only take so much at one time so this is my diversion

[FJRider]

it's how the insurance companies my see it, it's also throwing other things into the discussion pot, that's all it's a quiet friday night and i'm polishing stainless dome nuts for my digger, hands can only take so much at one time so this is my diversion

I work one week on then one week off. Two days left of my week off ... still time to do stuff. Or not ... (presently not)

If an insurance claim is refused on a claimant at fault basis ... who would take out insurance. (Sounds like a Cassina idea .. ??)

Insurance is about a policy that you sign just prior to paying the premium. Many policies are not (necessarily) based on the letter of the law. ie: you may be exceeding the posted speed limit when you crash and still be covered. Many require WOF/Rego unless they are specifically recorded the vehicle as being in storage (and some do not).

To make a ... "How insurance Companies MAY see it" statement ... you will need to quote a specific persons/companies policy. Generalizing such thing will end badly as many policies may have variations/clauses differing from the standard policy (you get what you pay for).

Anybody taking out an insurance policy and not reading it first IS an idiot ... that's a good way to throw away money by getting a claim declined.

In most cases nowadays ... unless specifically prohibited or ANY exceptions stated (in fine print)... it will (should) be covered. But the best advice is STILL ... always read the policy before you sign at the bottom.

Have you read any of your insurance policies lately ... ??

[liam_san123]

I work one week on then one week off. Two days left of my week off ... still time to do stuff. Or not ... (presently not)

If an insurance claim is refused on a claimant at fault basis ... who would take out insurance. (Sounds like a Cassina idea .. ??)

Insurance is about a policy that you sign just prior to paying the premium. Many policies are not (necessarily) based on the letter of the law. ie: you may be exceeding the posted speed limit when you crash and still be covered. Many require WOF/Rego unless they are specifically recorded the vehicle as being in storage (and some do not).

To make a ... "How insurance Companies MAY see it" statement ... you will need to quote a specific persons/companies policy. Generalizing such thing will end badly as many policies may have variations/clauses differing from the standard policy (you get what you pay for).

Anybody taking out an insurance policy and not reading it first IS an idiot ... that's a good way to throw away money by getting a claim declined.

In most cases nowadays ... unless specifically prohibited or ANY exceptions stated (in fine print)... it will (should) be covered. But the best advice is STILL ... always read the policy before you sign at the bottom.

Have you read any of your insurance policies lately ... ??

Good reply. I don’t actually have insurance with my bike but did get a few quotes from many different agencies.

I quite like kiwibike, they seem pretty solid. I’m not too familiar with insurance companies and stuff but what you are saying is that I could possibly negiotate my policy with them. e.g. I could say my bike has a slip on exhaust and they’ll up my premiums or excess but still pay out in an event of an accident


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[FJRider]

Good reply. I don’t actually have insurance with my bike but did get a few quotes from many different agencies.

I quite like kiwibike, they seem pretty solid. I’m not too familiar with insurance companies and stuff but what you are saying is that I could possibly negiotate my policy with them. e.g. I could say my bike has a slip on exhaust and they’ll up my premiums or excess but still pay out in an event of an accident




Have a chat to a few Motorcycle shops about insurance coy's ... and the reasons they recommend them. Some good motorcyclist specific outfits out there.

Ask the questions to the ones writing the policy ... what have you got to lose ... ??? (except lots of money if you get it wrong)

What may appear to be (potentially) a big deal to some ... really isn't. ie: Will a slip on exhaust cause you to have an accident .. ??? Is there any other way it could cause physical harm to you or the bike ... ???

At worst it's a condition of license clause that ... unless you've been riding like a dick ... and giving the plod that stopped you grief ... plod will be unlikely to mention it. (IF he/she is actually aware of the exhaust issue connotations in the LAM's legislation or actually cares ... (see the riding like a dick bit).

[Subike]

so I ride a lams approved bike on my full, it is insured,
but after reading this thread, it appears that my insurance would be void, because of the mods I have made,
ie exhaust, foot pegs, air cleaner, ignition mod...
Thats sounds a bit crazy to me.
If I did the same mods to a non lams bike,
this would not be a problem?
Have I got all this information from this thread right?
I must be missing something.
A Lams bike MUST stay in factory condition always regardless of the riders license?

[FJRider]

so I ride a lams approved bike on my full, it is insured,
but after reading this thread, it appears that my insurance would be void, because of the mods I have made,
ie exhaust, foot pegs, air cleaner, ignition mod...
Thats sounds a bit crazy to me.
If I did the same mods to a non lams bike,
this would not be a problem?
Have I got all this information from this thread right?
I must be missing something.
A Lams bike MUST stay in factory condition always regardless of the riders license?

A few seem to be missing something.

The questions to be asked ... is the "Issue" ...

A. An insurance issue .. ??? (read your Policy)

B. A Law issue .. (read Legislation)

C. A license issue ... (What class license do you posses ??)

D. Other ... (What other .. ??)


If the issue is insurance ... a breach of legislation (ie: A riders breach of riders license conditions) is required before (possibly) any issue of pay-out can be seen. You are quite legal, BUT ... riding a NON LAM's class motorcycle. Non LAMs because it's not standard as you fully admit. (As per LAM's regulations)

Holding a full license you are legal to ride if the Motorcycle is road legal.


Thus ... YOU are fully legal (as is your motorcycle ... as if you didn't know already ... :devil2:)





Contrary to popular mythical beliefs ... not all insurance policies are created the same (let alone equal) ...


Advice to those with a motorcycle insurance policy ... FUCKING READ IT ...

Quote your own if you like ... but don't assume everybody has the same conditions as yourself ...

[Subike]

mm, not too bad an answer FJ.
But there is the other question.
You buy a Harley Davidson Lams approved bike from a H D dealer.
They fit their screaming eagle or what ever mods to it before you ride it out the shop on your restricted.
You have it under HP, and it is insured, Via their finance co and preferred insurance co..
Is this legal, because the shop modified it,?
Seems this thread would say no....

[rastuscat]

so I ride a lams approved bike on my full, it is insured,
but after reading this thread, it appears that my insurance would be void, because of the mods I have made,
ie exhaust, foot pegs, air cleaner, ignition mod...
Thats sounds a bit crazy to me.
If I did the same mods to a non lams bike,
this would not be a problem?
Have I got all this information from this thread right?
I must be missing something.
A Lams bike MUST stay in factory condition always regardless of the riders license?

On a full licence you are able to ride any bike, LAMS approved or not.

Out of interest, I'll be nominating this for Stupid Post Of The Decade.

You're welcome.

[rastuscat]

mm, not too bad an answer FJ.
But there is the other question.
You buy a Harley Davidson Lams approved bike from a H D dealer.
They fit their screaming eagle or what ever mods to it before you ride it out the shop on your restricted.
You have it under HP, and it is insured, Via their finance co and preferred insurance co..
Is this legal, because the shop modified it,?
Seems this thread would say no....

The shops are incentivised by the profit margin on the after market parts.

It's the rider who is insured who carries the insurance liability. Standing back and saying "But the dealer fitted it" means bugger all.

[FJRider]

mm, not too bad an answer FJ.
But there is the other question.
You buy a Harley Davidson Lams approved bike from a H D dealer.
They fit their screaming eagle or what ever mods to it before you ride it out the shop on your restricted.
You have it under HP, and it is insured, Via their finance co and preferred insurance co..
Is this legal, because the shop modified it,?
Seems this thread would say no....

The manufacturers originally fitted item is required to be fitted for learner/restricted riders. NO learner/restricted rider does not know this. The legality side as far as the shop goes ... misleading advertising at worst. Quite common nowadays ... and most shops have been questioned about it at some stage by "customers" ... but they continue the practice.

There is a possibility that the "Preferred Insurance co" is totally OK with the "issue" ... as it's not really a safety issue ie: it shouldn't cause you to have an accident. In other words ... if you want to risk a breach of license condition charge ... they wont get their knickers in a twist over it. But you would need to actually read the policy first to confirm that.

[Hoonicorn]

The old "exhaust switcheroo but still sold as Learner Approved" shenanigans. Dealers should know the law around lams bikes, but often dealers get modified trade-ins that they can't technically sell as LAMS under the letter of the law so they just sell them as LAMS. They'd be close enough to LAMS performance most of the time, except for some bikes on the edge like the MT-07.