And so it begins. White farmers thrown off land in SA

[Lias]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4340396.stm


Seizure order on SA white farm
Hannes Visser. File photo
Mr Visser bought the farm in 1968
South Africa is for the first time forcing a white farmer to sell his land under a redistribution plan.

The government served an expropriation order on Hannes Visser.

The move came after failed talks between Mr Visser and the Land Claims Commission, set up to return to black people land they lost under apartheid.

Mr Visser said he would challenge the decision in court. The government says it wants to hand over about a third of white-owned farm land by 2014.

But progress has been slow, as the policy until now, has meant that both the seller and buyer have to agree on the terms, the BBC's Peter Biles in Johannesburg says.

Protracted negotiations

Mr Visser has the 500-hectare (1,250-acre) cattle and crop farm in Lichtenburg in North West province.

Landless South Africans calling for land reform. File photo
South Africa's landless have been calling for swifter land reform

His family bought it in 1968, but a black family has lodged a claim to the property dating back to the 1940s.

Over the past two-and-a-half years, Mr Visser and the Land Claims Commission have been trying to negotiate, but failed to agree on the value of the property.

The government had offered to buy the farm for $275,000 but Mr Visser says it is worth almost twice as much.

Mr Visser now has 21 days to respond to the notice of expropriation.

In the 11 years since the end of apartheid, less than 4% of farmland has been transferred from white to black ownership, he says.


First Rhodesia, now SA. Wonder how long before Comrade Clark and the Maori party start trying this shit here.

[marty]

can't see helen doing it, but i'm sure mr mair and his bunch of mates have some ideas. isn't there somewhere in wellington that is having just this issue now?

[vifferman]

I'm not at all surprised at this. When it happened in Zimbabwe, I thought it would only be a matter of time before the madness spread...

[Ixion]

Freedom flows from the barrel of a gun. Those who are not prepared to fight for what they have will lose it, sooner or later, wherever they are.

[kerryg]

First Rhodesia, now SA. Wonder how long before Comrade Clark and the Maori party start trying this shit here.


It could only happen here if the majority permitted it. The whites in Zimbabwe and SA are a minority. Ken Mair (if he really IS Maori) et al are very much a minority here and unjustified/illegal/forcible/whatever repossession of land by them from its current owners would need a small minority to dominate a large majority. It won't happen unless most of us vote to give the people with that agenda the power to do it. It certainly won't happen by armed insurrection. The buggers are out-numbered and out-gunned

[Back Fire]

huh.... I'm glad I got out of there when I did...

[Sniper]

Fuck sake. Fucken low lifes!

[Al]

Exactly the reason we are now New Zealand citizens.....
Bloody sodding baaaaaaaaaaaastards!

Al

[TwoSeven]

Whats the difference between giving land back to maori and giving land back to blacks.

[Skyryder]

I don't know the details of this but if the land was stolen, confiscated under the SA apartheid laws then I can not see what the problem is. Does anyone know the historical background of this?

Skyryder

[WINJA]

I HOPE WE DONT GET ANOTHER BIG INFLUX OF SOUTH AFRICANS COMING IN CAUSE OF THIS SHIT , THERES ENOUGH OF THEM HERE ALREADY

[Indiana_Jones]

It's a f*cking joke. :argh:

-Indy

[Skyryder]

I HOPE WE DONT GET ANOTHER BIG INFLUX OF SOUTH AFRICANS COMING IN CAUSE OF THIS SHIT , THERES ENOUGH OF THEM HERE ALREADY

Common ground at last. Well nearly. All you gota do is to use lower case and muck out with the rest of us.


Skyryder

[oldrider]

Freedom flows from the barrel of a gun. Those who are not prepared to fight for what they have will lose it, sooner or later, wherever they are.
That is exactly what young Americans/Brits/Australians etc are doing on our behalf in Iraq. I say thank you to them.
Personally I find our lefty Nation and Govt attitudes embarrassing. John.

[curious george]

That is exactly what young Americans/Brits/Australians etc are doing on our behalf in Iraq. I say thank you to them.
Personally I find our lefty Nation and Govt attitudes embarrassing. John.
*get's the feeling this might go waaaaaaaay off topic, anyway...*
WTF are you on about?
I think you mean the Iraqi people are fighting for their freedom......
It's all about oil supply and GWB's crusade with the God in his head.
But I find our lefty Govt embarrassing too. :psst:

[Skyryder]

That is exactly what young Americans/Brits/Australians etc are doing on our behalf in Iraq. I say thank you to them.
Personally I find our lefty Nation and Govt attitudes embarrassing. John.

Is this more to your liking? http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/discrim/race_b_at_print.asp

Skyryder

[soundbeltfarm]

if this happened here all the gun barels in this house hold would be smoking.
i'd have a few bullets spare for helen, then again we cant use lead on ducks now so i'd probably have to take her out with a hammer.

but cant see it happening here.

[Kickaha]

That is exactly what young Americans/Brits/Australians etc are doing on our behalf in Iraq. I say thank you to them.
Personally I find our lefty Nation and Govt attitudes embarrassing. John.


What a load of crap, they're doing it on our behalf? they're certainly not doing it on mine

Wasn't Iraq because that nasty Saddam guy had WMD and was a threat blah blah blah,except that turned out to be a complete load of bullshit

[oldrider]

Whats the use of freedom if you can't ride your bike? No oil! John.

[jazbug5]

As far as I can see, there's been a real effort in South Africa to address grievances without bloodshed- i.e. the reconciliation process in which wrongs under apartheid by particular people were openly aired and apologised for so that people could move on. Forgive me if this seems naive, but if my family had had their land taken from them under an unjust system, I'd probably want it back, too. In most countries, stolen property is returned to the rightful owner. Okay, the farmer bought it in good faith, but sadly someone has to make a judgement call on what is fair in this case. He has profited from cheap land (it seems) for thirty-odd years, and has now been offered a price to give it up; this is hardly the same as in Zimbabwe where they are terrorizing people (black and white) and throwing them off their land without redress. Recquisitioning land and property has been the perogative of goverments everywhere for centuries; this is hardly new or specific to Southern Africa. The whole situation is a tinderbox, and the last thing it needs is a few bright sparks with firepower, surely?

[Timber020]

I find it hard to feel sorry for white farmers in SA after the treatment some have dealt out to the blacks over the last century or so.
A farm I know of had a mobile water pump that was powered by an old radial airplane engine. It had to be started how you seen old planes started in movies but without being properly anchored. It used to kill or maim, on average, one black worker every 2 years. It was first put to work sometime in the 60's, to my knowledge its still in use.

[Biff]

First Rhodesia, now SA. Wonder how long before Comrade Clark and the Maori party start trying this shit here.

Yeah. The similarities are stark. White Europeans invading foreign lands and claiming the natives land for their own. Rule Brittania and the 'Cloggies' (Dutch).

[Badcat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4340396.stm



First Rhodesia, now SA. Wonder how long before Comrade Clark and the Maori party start trying this shit here.

yeah, should be next week.
exactly the same, South Africa and NZ.

[Al]

And the problem, WINJA and Skyryder, with South Africans coming to New Zealand is........?

Black land was not taken from the tribes, it was exchanged for food/blankets/goods. Today that sounds like they were terribly "ripped-off". When the land was acquired it was barren/bush/undeveloped, today the farms are developed, have homesteads and are worth a shitload more money than that which is being offered for them.

As for the inhumane treatment of ethnic people, that did happen in the past, still happens in the present in some places.
I was a Lieutenant in the SADF during the so-called terrorist era, the people we fought against in Angola are now the rulers of the country.... Well, viva fucking AZANIA!
Ethnic people are catching up on the payback pretty smartly and, as in Zimbabwe, they are not only targeting the "Whiteys".

Go to Africa and experience "it" firsthand, then come back and post :argh:


Flame away

Al

[thehollowmen]

South Africans are hot. They also have an awesome choice in motorcycles.

Also, they are trained in some jobs that kiwis can't get trained in now. Eg General pathology as a specialisation.

Really sad to hear this but.. means we might get some more over here

[thehollowmen]

Black land was not taken from the tribes, it was exchanged for food/blankets/goods. Today that sounds like they were terribly "ripped-off". When the land was acquired it was barren/bush/undeveloped, today the farms are developed, have homesteads and are worth a shitload more money than that which is being offered for them.


Oh shit, this sounds like what happened in New Zealand.

[Skyryder]

And the problem, WINJA and Skyryder, with South Africans coming to New Zealand is........?

Al

The Broderbond

http://gin007.tripod.com/era.html

Skyryder

[Fart]

I HOPE WE DONT GET ANOTHER BIG INFLUX OF SOUTH AFRICANS COMING IN CAUSE OF THIS SHIT , THERES ENOUGH OF THEM HERE ALREADY

The SA I've met are pretty cool. I welcome them.

I dont mind who comes in, as long as they are decent people who respects the law and this country. :niceone:

[Fart]

South Africans are hot. They also have an awesome choice in motorcycles.

Also, they are trained in some jobs that kiwis can't get trained in now. Eg General pathology as a specialisation.

Really sad to hear this but.. means we might get some more over here


It is very hard for a doctor to practice in NZ. Overseas docs have to reapply and go through hard exams to practice here. My gf is a 4th year medical student.

[Skyryder]

Black land was not taken from the tribes, it was exchanged for food/blankets/goods. Today that sounds like they were terribly "ripped-off". When the land was acquired it was barren/bush/undeveloped, today the farms are developed, have homesteads and are worth a shitload more money than that which is being offered for them.
Al

It seems that your response is the result of your arpetheid education system.

There have been numerous conflicts over land in South Africa. In 1659 a Khoikhoi rebellion led by Doman broke out due to the encroachment of their lands by Dutch pastoralists. This was a failure. During the ensuing years further conflict erupted over the same issues with their defeat in 1677.

Demand for the same resources(land and water) erupted in the 1779 to 1781 between the Boers and the Xhosa. In the second war of 1796 the Xhosa regained their land which was acknowledged in law. However in 1795 the Boers in Graaff-Reinet rebelled expelling the magistrate and setting up and independent Republic.

The early history of South Africa is filled with these types of conflicts between setters and the natives.

So much for the beads and blankets for land theory that you postulate.

Skyryder

[Pixie]

I don't know the details of this but if the land was stolen, confiscated under the SA apartheid laws then I can not see what the problem is. Does anyone know the historical background of this?

Skyryder
Yeah give the land back to them.After all,they manage it so well when it's returned to them.That is why Zimbabwe is now known as "The bread basket of Africa"

[jazbug5]

..And you don't imagine the poor, simple creatures might have picked up a thing or two while they were doing all the hard labour on the land..?

Zimbabwe is suffering an enormous amount of social and political disruption. The leadership is at fault, not the people in general. Mugabe may be a cretin, but that's no reason to belittle the abilities of his victims, the people. Anyone here read about the millions of people that starved in China during the 'Great Leap Forward' and other wonderful schemes brought to us by Mao & His Cronies (tm)?

[Lias]

What people seem to be missing is there is no justification for giving the land back to the blacks.

Even if we say that the land was "unfairly" invaded and conqueuered, thats still no reason for giving it back. Do you see britain returning land and offering compensation to the descendants of the scots or welsh they invaded, occupied, raped and murdered for 100's of years? Do you see the US government offering massive reperations to native americans? Of course you fucking dont. Conquest is a normal part of life, and the conquerors are not obligated to turn around and give it all back a few years down the bloody track.

IMHO the main mistake the early SA settlers made was they didnt try and exterminate the blacks. Take the US.. They damn near commited genocide against the american indians, and as a result they are a tiny minority that sits on reservations and doesnt bug the rest of society.. Smart move imo

[Joni]

I don't know the details of this but if the land was stolen, confiscated under the SA apartheid laws then I can not see what the problem is. Does anyone know the historical background of this?Yes I do actually...
and it has very little to do with the 1700's or 1800's. If you would like to know more about it I will pm you with pleasure.

[Coyote]

It's already happening here

Trying to find an article on the net about this, but it was in the Dominion Post* that the local tanga te whenua has laid a claim to aprox. 300 plots of land around Wellington, Petone and the Hutt Valley. There's 2 plots of land down my street that are being claimed. Still not clear on the details. Did anyone else see this?

*I believe it was the Dominion Post, could've been in another newspaper

[jazbug5]

Do you see britain returning land and offering compensation to the descendants of the scots or welsh they invaded, occupied, raped and murdered for 100's of years?


Er... spot the deliberate mistake?

As for the rest of your post... meh. Can't be bothered, frankly. And as for Maori families getting back their (often recently taken) land, then if they have proof of it bloody good on them, I say. *takes cover*

[Lias]

Er... spot the deliberate mistake?

*blush*
No, just the result of me rewriting what I was saying and not checking it all made sense.

I was thinking in terms of Britain being split up into its distinct parts again, and of England offering reperation to the other nations. That clearer?

[Biff]

I was thinking in terms of Britain being split up into its distinct parts again, and of England offering reperation to the other nations. That clearer?

Pedant hat on...

Britain is already is split up into distinct parts (countries and principalities), each nation being recognised as such by both the European parliament (each nation/region with their own European members of parliament) and the UN (although the borders of the nations have changed over time). Each of the nations within Britain (not the UK though, which includes Northern Ireland) have their own national assemblies, albeit with varying legislative and tax raising powers (but that’s becoming more of a European governance issue these days, EU tax harmonisation programs etc).

I wouldn't use Britain as an example here, the model doesn’t quite fit. Granted many true Brits (original Brits like the Scots and the Welsh) have been persecuted over the centuries by English royalty/nobility, and their land stolen, then returned, but always governed by the English monarchy, but today Britain and the UK is pretty much a cohesive society. Although the calls for complete legislative independence is growing in Scotland and Wales. And if you get beyond the thuggery & organised crime in Northern Ireland you'll also find the majority of N.Irish would also prefer to remain part of the UK. Although that's mainly thanks to the loyal Scots troops (Protestants) and their families that the English moved into N.Ireland (Catholics) several centuries ago, in an attempt to quell Irish uprising against the then monarchy (rich, power hungry, imperialistic war mongers).

[Ixion]

Pedant hat on...

... Although that's mainly thanks to the loyal Scots troops (Protestants) and their families that the English moved into N.Ireland (Catholics) several centuries ago, in an attempt to quell Irish uprising against the then monarchy (rich, power hungry, imperialistic war mongers).

Not quite. In fact it was to quell the Irish rising in SUPPORT of the then monarchy.

The Protestants, from Scotland, were settled in Ulster by Oliver Cromwell, to displace the native Irish , because of the support of the latter for King Charles I , during the Civil War (or Great Rebellion, depending on what side you are) . Cromwell being, of course, the leader of the uprising against the monarchy (or, more strictly, the dude who grabbed power after the uprising) .

Republics don't work. We tried it, and it didn't work.

[Al]

Once again Skyryder, why the chip on the shoulder? That article on the BROEDERBOND was written by...?

It is actually APARTHEID and that education system did a damm fine job of educating people.

THe architects of APARTHEID, (Dr Verwoerd and cronies), are all dead or very close to death now. Apartheid was abolished in 1994 when the ANC won the election and took over the running of the country.
Seeing that whites are the vast minority in SA, whythe fuck does everyone still focus on what they did wrong. I do not condone what was done by the forefathers of the country, why should my generation be made to pay for it?
What about the hijackings, FARM MURDERS, taxi violence, etc? Are you going to blame the fascists for that too?
Get off your arse, go to Africa and experience it for yourself.... Just make sure you reserve your job here - those BROEDERBOND immigrants might take it away form you without proper compensation. :argh:

Al

[WINJA]

And the problem, WINJA and Skyryder, with South Africans coming to New Zealand is........?



Flame away

Al
FAR FAR TO FUCKEN MANY IS THE PROBLEM. SA IS FUCKED CAUSE OF THE POPULATION AND THEIR ATTITUDE AND NOW WE ARE LETTING THESE PEOPLE IN HERE.
BLACKS RIDING ON THE BACKS OF BUSES AND SHIT LIKE THAT ,DIRTY KEFERS,FLAT NOSES, I HEAR THESE ATTITUDES AT WORK FROM THESE SOUTH AFRICANS CAUSE IM QUITE WHITE ,BUT I HAVE A BLACK MUM, THEY DARE NOT SAY THE SHIT I HEAR IN FRONT OF BLACKS, I GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A SA GUY AT WORK A FEW YEARS AGO CAUSE OF HIS SHIT ATTITUDE , I WORKED AT A COMPANY WHERE A SA DUDE GOT TO BE A SERVICE MANAGER AND STARTED TO ONLY EMPLOY MORE SA GUYS , ITS NOW A FULL TEAM OF SA GUYS AND NO KIWIS, ITS JUST BRINGING SEGREGATION TO NZ

[Skyryder]

Once again Skyryder, why the chip on the shoulder? That article on the BROEDERBOND was written by...?

It is actually APARTHEID and that education system did a damm fine job of educating people.

THe architects of APARTHEID, (Dr Verwoerd and cronies), are all dead or very close to death now. Apartheid was abolished in 1994 when the ANC won the election and took over the running of the country.
Seeing that whites are the vast minority in SA, whythe fuck does everyone still focus on what they did wrong. I do not condone what was done by the forefathers of the country, why should my generation be made to pay for it?
What about the hijackings, FARM MURDERS, taxi violence, etc? Are you going to blame the fascists for that too?
Get off your arse, go to Africa and experience it for yourself.... Just make sure you reserve your job here - those BROEDERBOND immigrants might take it away form you without proper compensation. :argh:

Al

You make the false assertion that because Verwoerd and his cronies are all dead the forces behind apartheid no longer exist. The Broderbond is still active and its aims have not changed. You asked a simple question and I gave you a straight answer. I have more than enough concerns with the problems that New Zealand now face without us importing elements of apartheid into my country. No chip here just a little patriotism on my part.

As for the authorship of the document I have no idea but I do know a little of South African politics and I could detect no glaring inaccuracies.


As for the 1700 and 1800 conflicts I mentioned these only in the same context as land traded for beads and blankets. There is no one act that denied indigenous South Africans of justice on land issues. However the two most glaring acts are the Group Areas Act of 1950 which forced ethnic S. Afficans into areas predetermined by the South African Government and the Bantu Authorities Act of 1951.

No education system that advances the ideas that one race is superior to another can be said to have done a ‘dam fine job.’ On the contrary, if as you imply, those that go to SA are afraid of losing their jobs, is an example of your reasoning powers, then I can only say that your comments prove it.

As for visiting South Africa you make the ignorant assumption that I have not.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Republics don't work. We tried it, and it didn't work.

Pity a few more Kiwis thought this way.

Skyryder

[Al]

If the Broederbond is still operating why has the government of the day not stopped it?
Eugene Terblanche tried to stumble into a new SA with his failed AWB, the reason he did not succeed was because of the changed attitudes of the majority of the white (minority) population.
The problem with reading is that you only get the opinion of the writer, not the full story.
I agree that there are still rascist SAns, even here in NZ, BUT, look around you and listen to the rascism "at home". Christchurch has a problem with asian people, so all people in ChCh are rascist? No, I do not react to what is written and or on the news on TV.
As much as you hear about the "FLAT NOSE KAFFIR, etc" WINJA, listen to the locals slagging the Islanders, calling them black and coconuts, etc. Are Kiwis all classed as rascist because of a few incidents? No.
So, GET OVER IT, SOUTH AFRICANS WILL KEEP ON COMING TO NZ.
It costs a shitload of money to get into the country, no criminal records allowed, so turn the page and live life to the fullest. :niceone:

Al

[Biff]

Not quite. In fact it was to quell the Irish rising in SUPPORT of the then monarchy.

I was referring to the 'proper' invasion in the 12th century by the Anglo/Normans, who I understood to be loyal to the then English crown. My understanding being that they were sent there to get rid of Diarmait McMurcda (my spelling may be way off), who, if memory serves me correct, as leader of the northern Irish at that time decided that he'd no longer recognised the English crown (Henry Tudor?).

Northern Ireland has a history as complex and bloody as the Palestines I guess. So we may both be on to something.

[WINJA]

If the Broederbond is still operating why has the government of the day not stopped it?
Eugene Terblanche tried to stumble into a new SA with his failed AWB, the reason he did not succeed was because of the changed attitudes of the majority of the white (minority) population.
The problem with reading is that you only get the opinion of the writer, not the full story.
I agree that there are still rascist SAns, even here in NZ, BUT, look around you and listen to the rascism "at home". Christchurch has a problem with asian people, so all people in ChCh are rascist? No, I do not react to what is written and or on the news on TV.
As much as you hear about the "FLAT NOSE KAFFIR, etc" WINJA, listen to the locals slagging the Islanders, calling them black and coconuts, etc. Are Kiwis all classed as rascist because of a few incidents? No.
So, GET OVER IT, SOUTH AFRICANS WILL KEEP ON COMING TO NZ.
It costs a shitload of money to get into the country, no criminal records allowed, so turn the page and live life to the fullest. :niceone:

Al
IM NOT SAYING THERES NO RACISM IN NZ , BUT AS A COUNTRY OUR GOVERNMENT INVITED ISLANDERS INTO THIS COUNTRY WHERE THE CULTURE AND GENERAL ATTITUDE FROM THE SA PEOPLE I SEE IN THIS COUNTRY IS THAT BLACKS WERENT EVEN WELCOME IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY , AND NOW YOU GUYS ARE BITCHEN AND CRYING WHEN THE WORM TURNS , I THINK YOU GUYS ARE THE WRONG KINDA IMMIGRANT AND I THINK YOU SHOULD STAY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND SLEEP IN THE BED YOU MADE, I DONT BELIEVE THE GENERAL SA RACIST ATTITUDE HAS CHANGED AS A WHOLE, AND IM NOT SAYING I LIKE THE BLACKS IN YOUR COUNTRY EITHER.
GO HOME AND FIX YOUR COUNTRY ,SAME WITH IRAQIS I DONT THINK ANY SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN THIS COUNTRY , IRAQ IS BEUATIFUL AND HAS LOTS OF WEALTH IT WAS FUCKED BY THE PEOPLE THEN WHAT DO ,WE DO WE LET THE ONLY THING THAT FUCKED IRAQ INTO NZ , THE PEOPLE.

[Timber020]

Few native nations got any sort of fair deal once the european settlers hit the shores. And to say that by giving one chief a few blankets and muskets for 10,000 acres of land that may or may not belong to him in the first place to be a fair trade is a joke.
Land was often "sold" under the threat of it being taken otherwise, as it often was.

Look what happened in Parihaka. Nothing like killing peaceful protesters. Men women and childeren because you cant get your way.

The safas made the mess in south africa, and have chose to leave the nest rather than lie in it

[Ixion]

I was referring to the 'proper' invasion in the 12th century by the Anglo/Normans, who I understood to be loyal to the then English crown. My understanding being that they were sent there to get rid of Diarmait McMurcda (my spelling may be way off), who, if memory serves me correct, as leader of the northern Irish at that time decided that he'd no longer recognised the English crown (Henry Tudor?).

Northern Ireland has a history as complex and bloody as the Palestines I guess. So we may both be on to something.


Hm. Sort of. Henry Tudor (Hen VII) was 15/16C. The original "pale" (pale means a wall) in the 12C was not originally anything to do with the crown, which made no claim to Ireland. It was a private filibuster organised by Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare (Strongbow) , Sieur d'Orbec and Bienfaite, lord of Striguil and earl of Pembroke. He, a typical Norman robber baron, had been excluded from his eorldom of Pembroke by Henry II (the Lion King, of Anjou, no relation to Henry Tudor) because of his (Strongbow's) support for King Stephen in the Time of Terror. He was also deeply in debt to Aaron the Jew of Norfolk.

At this time Dermot MacMurchada, king of Leinster had been deposed from his throne (no idea who by). He trotted of to Hen II who (cunning old sod he was) told him 'Piss off, but if any of the lads want to take it on for what they can get out it, they're welcome to have a go".

Strongbow, reckoned he had little to lose and much to win ,especially as Dermort sweetened the pot with the offer of his daughter, a nice bit of crumpet by all accounts (incidentally he wasn't called Strongbow because he was good at archery). So he gathered together some of his old mates from the Welsh Wars of 1164 (who had themselves been sent packing by Rhys ap Gruyyfud and were looking for somewhere else to loot).

Pretty soon Strongbow and co had more or less taken over the place (or the bit around dublin anyway, the rest was too boggy), and Strongbow began to get idea of setting up as King on his own account. Hen II heard of this (as most else), and showed why he was called the Lion King. He descended on Ireland in force in double quick time, and told Strongbow "toe the line or I'll chop your head off and feed your balls to the rats" . Strongbow had the sense to yield, cut a good deal with the King whereby Strongbow and mates kept the land (hereafter called the Pale or Settlement), and Henry retained the title of Lord (not King) of Ireland. Henry VIII was the first to claim the title of King of Ireland, after he fell out with the Pope.

But the first Protestants would not appear for another 300 odd years.

The Normans were Roman Catholic, the Irish were Celtic Catholic (sod that bastard Augustine), and the English nominally Roman Catholic, in reality mainly Pagan.

[Kickaha]

Look what happened in Parihaka. Nothing like killing peaceful protesters. Men women and childeren because you cant get your way.


Every history of Parihaka I have read says nothing about "Men,Women and children being killed can you produce a source to back your claim up?

The main reason I ask is because I've seen this claimed before and did some looking up and it seems that although a great many people believe that to be the case that it didn't really happen, I am willing to stand corrected though.

[Thumper]

I THINK YOU GUYS ARE THE WRONG KINDA IMMIGRANT AND I THINK YOU SHOULD STAY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND SLEEP IN THE BED YOU MADE, I DONT BELIEVE THE GENERAL SA RACIST ATTITUDE HAS CHANGED AS A WHOLE, AND IM NOT SAYING I LIKE THE BLACKS IN YOUR COUNTRY EITHER.
GO HOME AND FIX YOUR COUNTRY ,SAME WITH IRAQIS I DONT THINK ANY SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN THIS COUNTRY , IRAQ IS BEUATIFUL AND HAS LOTS OF WEALTH IT WAS FUCKED BY THE PEOPLE THEN WHAT DO ,WE DO WE LET THE ONLY THING THAT FUCKED IRAQ INTO NZ , THE PEOPLE.

Generalisation is what got countries such as South Africa and Iraq into the shit that they found themselves in. Attitudes such as “I don’t want you in my space because you are different”, “I chose to associate only with people who think the same way I do” and “I feel threatened by those who are different/skilled/wealthy/educated/hardworking/etc.” were rife in the old South Africa. These attitudes exist in most communities but are generally not admitted to by those who feel that way. It is reprehensible when the beliefs of a minority are allowed to dominate a majority as they did in both SA and Iraq. WINJA, as a generalist you would have felt right at home there <_< .

[WINJA]

Generalisation is what got countries such as South Africa and Iraq into the shit that they found themselves in. Attitudes such as “I don’t want you in my space because you are different”, “I chose to associate only with people who think the same way I do” and “I feel threatened by those who are different/skilled/wealthy/educated/hardworking/etc.” were rife in the old South Africa. These attitudes exist in most communities but are generally not admitted to by those who feel that way. It is reprehensible when the beliefs of a minority are allowed to dominate a majority as they did in both SA and Iraq. WINJA, as a generalist you would have felt right at home there <_< .
THATS JUST GENERALLY HOW I FEEL BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES WITH SAFS , THERE IS AN EXCEPTION AND HES A FRIEND OF MINE WHOS SAF AND I BELIEVE HES TRULY DIFFERENT THAN 90% OF THE POPULATION. DOENSNT MEAN THEY SHOULD LET ANY MORE SAFS INTO NZ, THEY SHOULD STAY THERE AND FIX THAT BEUTIFUL COUNTRY. ID LIKE TO SEE MORE IMMIGRANTS FROM FUNCTIONAL COUNTRIES LIKE CANADA, USA , AUSSIE, ENGLAND , JAPAN , THAILAND ETC

[Patrick]

Wasn't Iraq because that nasty Saddam guy had WMD and was a threat blah blah blah,except that turned out to be a complete load of bullshit

Shouldn't have been, because the Yanks and Poms gave them (Iraq) WMD's when they were having the scrap with Iran in the 80's.

Saddam used a few on his countrymen Kurds etc, but there are a lot unaccounted for, apparently (so I've read somewhere...). Made me wonder...They've gotta be somewhere...

[Lias]

Man this thread has gone off course (par for the course around here thou I guess :whocares: )

With regards to the AWB, I lost any respect I had for them when they failed to launch a gorilla war after the ANC took power. Some like to view the ANC & Mandela through rose coloured glasses, but the fact remains that Mandela lead the ANC's militant wing (MK) in a violent campaign against Apartheid rule, and they can only be classified as a Terrorist organisation. However at least they had the balls to stand up and FIGHT for what they believed in. If the AWB had gone underground and gone to war against the ANC government, then I'd have some respect for them but they really just proved to be a bunch of gutless blowhards.

[v.ros`]

damn thats sad....

hope it doesnt happen in Zambia.... :mellow:

[Pixie]

IM NOT SAYING THERES NO RACISM IN NZ , BUT AS A COUNTRY OUR GOVERNMENT INVITED ISLANDERS INTO THIS COUNTRY WHERE THE CULTURE AND GENERAL ATTITUDE FROM THE SA PEOPLE I SEE IN THIS COUNTRY IS THAT BLACKS WERENT EVEN WELCOME IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY , AND NOW YOU GUYS ARE BITCHEN AND CRYING WHEN THE WORM TURNS , I THINK YOU GUYS ARE THE WRONG KINDA IMMIGRANT AND I THINK YOU SHOULD STAY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND SLEEP IN THE BED YOU MADE, I DONT BELIEVE THE GENERAL SA RACIST ATTITUDE HAS CHANGED AS A WHOLE, AND IM NOT SAYING I LIKE THE BLACKS IN YOUR COUNTRY EITHER.
GO HOME AND FIX YOUR COUNTRY ,SAME WITH IRAQIS I DONT THINK ANY SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN THIS COUNTRY , IRAQ IS BEUATIFUL AND HAS LOTS OF WEALTH IT WAS FUCKED BY THE PEOPLE THEN WHAT DO ,WE DO WE LET THE ONLY THING THAT FUCKED IRAQ INTO NZ , THE PEOPLE.
Well, If it'll get Clark a UN post when she retires,I guess this immigration policy will continue

[Biff]

but the fact remains that Mandela lead the ANC's militant wing (MK) in a violent campaign against Apartheid rule,

Sorry mate - I don't buy that. The man was awarded a nobel peace prize for his constant calls for peaceful protest, and because the international community recognised this. The overwhelming majority of the ANC's violence taking place during his 20+ years imprisonment on peacfull (inciting open democracy and freedom of speech) charges.

" Together, we join two distinguished South Africans, the late Chief Albert Luthuli and His Grace Archbishop Desmond Tutu, to whose seminal contributions to the peaceful struggle against the evil system of apartheid you paid well-deserved tribute by awarding them the Nobel Peace Prize."

Mandela'a acceptance speech to the Nobel Peace Committee.

When the ANC was banned after the Sharpeville massacre in 1960, he was detained until 1961 when he went underground to lead a campaign for a new national convention.

Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK), the military wing of the ANC, was born the same year that Mandela was imprisoned (1961).



Anyway - in this day and age it's apparently ok for terrorists to become politicans. In the UK Matrin McGuiness, a murdering bastard during his days with the IRA is now minister for education in Northern ireland. Go figure!!

[Lias]

Sorry mate - I don't buy that. The man was awarded a nobel peace prize for his constant calls for peaceful protest, and because the international community recognised this. The overwhelming majority of the ANC's violence taking place during his 20+ years imprisonment on peacfull (inciting open democracy and freedom of speech) charges.

Initially committed to non-violence, he later became involved in the planning of underground armed resistance activities, such as sabotage.....In 1961, he became the leader of the ANC's armed wing Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military, government and civilian targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. He also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments.

Thats from his biography on Wikipedia.


Anyway - in this day and age it's apparently ok for terrorists to become politicans. In the UK Matrin McGuiness, a murdering bastard during his days with the IRA is now minister for education in Northern ireland. Go figure!!
Lets not forget Dubya.. I'm sure he's guilty of crimes against humanity.

[Lou Girardin]

Every history of Parihaka I have read says nothing about "Men,Women and children being killed can you produce a source to back your claim up?

The main reason I ask is because I've seen this claimed before and did some looking up and it seems that although a great many people believe that to be the case that it didn't really happen, I am willing to stand corrected though.

The "Holocaust in Taranaki" it comes from the same sources as the '80s "one in four women will be sexually abused before they're 16, half by their fathers"
Truth doesn't matter, sound bites do.