How low can you go? The Sequel!

[Korea]

Well all this talk about cornering etc. Thought I might post this riding practice video shot a few weekends ago.

Disclaimer: I am still far from being an accomplished rider so take everything with a grain of salt and a dose of your own common sense.
Disclaimer 2: This video might give some people silly ideas...

Oh yeah, the bike is a Hyosung Exiv, single 125cc, tyres: Poxy Korean brand 'Shinko' 100/80/17, 110/80/17.

Cornering method used to follow shortly...

Enjoy!

Edit: 25/06/2006 Just saw this again for the first time in ages ~ looks so slow! But yeah, goes to show that steering is important.

[Sniper]

Hmmmmm........ Nice bike.

[ManDownUnder]

what??? We're talking bikes???

damn...

[Korea]

Okay, this is carpark riding but the rules translate well to the road. Also it’s aimed at sports bikes but is mostly true of all bikes.

I used to wrestle with the bike, trying to make it go lower around corners until I found out that the more relaxed you ride, the better you corner. It’s funny that I used to think I could hold the bike up around corners with a death-grip on the handlebars.

#1 Loosen your grip on the bars! Particularly your outside arm – it seems strange but as you are countersteering into a left-hander, you may find that your right hand is actually fighting the left. Make a conscious effort to relax that outer arm; your bike will steer much quicker.

#1b Grip always loose on the bars during cornering. This lets your bike do that low-amplitude weaving it wants and also helps on the gas during head-shakes/tankslappers.

#2 Arms and elbows relaxed. Take the weight off your arms so you don’t negatively affect the steering. How?

#3 …Grip the tank and outer footpeg with your outer leg. Some say it’s pointless but I find that if I’ve got weight on the outside peg, I am more stable when something unexpected happens; ripples, head shake, rear slide…

#4 Move your upper body to the inside of the bike’s centreline and form that oh-so-cool crouch by relaxing your shoulders and ab-region. (that’s the guts for those of you without abs). Head turned, looking through the corner.

#5 This has all happened way before you’ve gotten to the corner, so you may look a bit silly in a cornering crouch going straight. The reason is to do it all before the corner so that you don’t upset the suspension while your lardy ass is moving all over the place.
Now it’s time to choose your turning point… break… clutch, blip, downchange and… BANZAI….!

#6 I’m off the throttle until I’ve apexed and then I dial the gas in a little depending on the degree of banking angle (but let’s face it, you’d be lucky to have the rear spin up on a 125!).
Rolling-on straightens up the bike and you can help it along by counter-steering and pushing on the outside bar.

Important! During cornering, arms and hands are as relaxed as possible! I cannot stress this enough. You aren’t holding the bike up – you’re gripping the side and hanging-off, your arms and wrists should practically be flapping in the wind.

Okay, I’m off my soapbox – comments?

[onearmedbandit]

Good video, and some good pointers.

[TonyB]

Awesome post Korea! Now to watch the vid

[speights_bud]

Good video, Just goes to show that you don't need to go fast to get your knee down. Nice bike :niceone:

[LXS]

Some good tips there Korea, cheers.


Nice video :cool:

[SlowHand]

How do you go about finding that point on a bike? so that green ninja thing doesn't happen to me. Would I put the ball of my feet on the inside peg, and have the outside of my feet just off the peg? And when I feel that touching, that's the bike's leaning limit?

[Korea]

Here's a Gixxer 750 at it too~
Same method but a little faster (he's braking though so actual corner speed is not all that fast).

Oh yeah, Michelin Pilot Race tyres help...

[Korea]

How do you go about finding that point on a bike? so that green ninja thing doesn't happen to me. Would I put the ball of my feet on the inside peg, and have the outside of my feet just off the peg? And when I feel that touching, that's the bike's leaning limit?

Yeah, keep your toes out of the way. My pegs are low so my toes touch down all the time. Everyone does something different with their inside foot - watch a few GPs / WSBK races. I put the ball of my foot on the end of the peg and curl my toes like I'm on tippy-toes. Do what feels best and gives you the most clearance.

The outside foot, I try to clamp down (as mentioned) somewhere in the middle or right up against the heel of my boots.

The first time the back let go (during practice) I panicked and my legs went flailing in all directions. After that, I started to clamp down on the outside (not excessively mind, just enough) so that when the back starts to slip I can hold on and ride it out. Much less scary.

Lean angle? For the road, once your knee starts touching down it's a good yard-stick telling you that you're going to run out of traction soon. Especially on stock tyres. Does this help?

[N4CR]

How do you go about finding that point on a bike? so that green ninja thing doesn't happen to me. Would I put the ball of my feet on the inside peg, and have the outside of my feet just off the peg? And when I feel that touching, that's the bike's leaning limit?

To find that point (from my little experience) you need a relatively empty smooth bitumen carpark with things you can aim to go around for corners, although the bike will handle differently (in terms of front wheel steering angle etc) to high speed, you get used to getting it down low.

Take it little bit lower each 'lap' of the course. I used to do a couple of hours each week untill I started scraping pegs and getting crappy tyres all skittish, and then got booted out by security >_<

Race track might be good as well, but higher speed = more damage, as opposed to a slow 20-40kmh carpark lowsider.

Doing this increases you confidence in corners you overcook at high speed - you know you can get it all the way down to the pegs on the right surface, so don't brake and stand the bike up - e.g hit the fence across the road when you fuck it all up.

I recently managed to get my knees down in a carpark... you learn pretty quickly what Korea said - move around before the corner starts, she gets frickken wobbly if you do it mid corner.

Oh yeah and knee sliders do help :argh:

[Korea]

More practice.
Practicing figure 8's in a closed carpark is good practice for all the skills you need on the road:
- looking at your ref' points, body position (trasitions!), brake timing, steering and acceleration.
Practicing with a buddy is also fun, but eventually this happens...
...he should have known better - I RULE the CARPARK:stupid:
(er... kids... it's not really something to be all that proud of...)

[Korea]

...in case you didn't know.

[ducatilover]

How do you go about finding that point on a bike? so that green ninja thing doesn't happen to me. Would I put the ball of my feet on the inside peg, and have the outside of my feet just off the peg? And when I feel that touching, that's the bike's leaning limit?
i wouldnt scrape my toes incase they caught. on the bros i have little bolts that are on the bottom of my pegs and do a really good job of telling me when my lean limit is reached, though that didnt happen often, only once infact because i wasnt used to the bike, but what korea said seems really helpfull. thanks korea:yes:

[White trash]

Low enough to grind both sides of the belly pan on my K3 Gixxer 1K. Them GSXRS are know for the lack of cornering clearance though.

Funny hearing riding tips from you Korea, last time I saw you you were flailing madly off the back of a NZ two fiddy on one wheel up a driveway somewhere.:lol:

[Korea]

Funny hearing riding tips from you Korea, last time I saw you you were flailing madly off the back of a NZ two fiddy on one wheel up a driveway somewhere.:lol:
That *ahem* was intentional. Still can't ride for poos ~ but have learnt a trick or two...

[Korea]

Long time, no practicing in carparks - the subway parking lot was completed and the place is now packed with parked cars.

No matter, there's another reasonably grippy carpark where us clowns like to take the 125s to practice more cornering ballet.

This was the day of the 'one-handed cornering challenge'.
Later we had the 'trying to get elbows down challenge' - that was a painful laugh...

Elbow-down videos to follow sometime soon.

Oh yeah: Doing circles in carparks will gain you up to 4 inches and make you more attractive to the opposite sex.

[Ham]

How do you not get dizzy?

[Stevo]

Oh yeah: Doing circles in carparks will gain you up to 4 inches and make you more attractive to the opposite sex.
No it doesn't.
I spent the whole afternoon doing circles and only gained 4mm, and the wench who wanted a ride wasn't attracted to me she was just too fat and lazy to walk home from the shop at the front of the carpark. Woulda broken my suspension.:doh:

[Craig11]

During this are you counter steering hard or steering in the direciton you want to go? I assume counter sterring but i don't wanna go try it and bail badly :).

[sAsLEX]

During this are you counter steering hard or steering in the direciton you want to go? I assume counter sterring but i don't wanna go try it and bail badly :).

I am going to say some thing that might start an argument, but meh, counter steering only works at higher speeds where the gyroscopic effects of the wheel have taken effect.

EDIT: Pause the vid and you can see the wheel is pointing inwards so this is telling you what input he is putting through the bars, but also as this is fairly static the steering input would not be changin

Anyways just do whats feels natural, you cant not counter steer at high speed but people seem confused when its disscussed on here. ( unless you back it in etc or are wierd)

[Stevo]

You will be slightly counter steering at slow speed, but if you learnt to ride a bicycle you will be doing it without thinking. All of us rode a bicycle first. It is hard to see in the vid because it has happened long before the corner. As the bike leans further and further till the point the rider apexes, he is not turning in enough to right the bike therefore why it leans more inward till the point maintains the lean angle. As he is righting the bike he is over turning to transfer the balance of weight into the vertical position. Simple really.

[Korea]

Hmmm... that's a tough one. I'm not sure sAs.

The input to the bars is of the counter-steering variety to get the bike to pitch into the corner, even at this low speed.

Follow the instructions if you want to be a carpark clown too!
Don't try and 'make' the bike go low - you'll fall off like I did.
Ridiculously easy once you've practiced it for a while...

I agree that you can't NOT countersteer at high speed - get's you nowhere.

Getting the bike on its side while doing circles, I'm conciously relaxing my outside arm and keeping a little pressure on the inside one.

I agree that the front is probably turning inwards - perhaps I'm counter steering but just fighting it from turning further?

The more I relax the outside arm, the lower the bike goes until...

[sAsLEX]

You will be slightly counter steering at slow speed, but if you learnt to ride a bicycle you will be doing it without thinking.

Not at very slow speeds you wont.

[kiwifruit]

cool videos
thanks for sharing, esp the "elbows" :D

[R6_kid]

lol at the last bit, looked like they recovered from going to far, but then didnt give it enough gas to get enough momentum to keep it upright.

[Korea]

Not at very slow speeds you wont.
So are you proposing that when I do the carpark circles (similar to crop circles but different), I'm turning the handlebars in the direction of the turn?
Uh-uh :hitcher: That would never get the bike on its ear.

[imdying]

The direction of the front wheel/bars and countersteering aren't the same thing though are they? Countersteering is the force you're applying through the bars isn't it? i.e. You're turning left, the bars/wheel is pointed left, but the pressure you're applying is on the inside of the left bar, and thus you're still countersteering?

[sAsLEX]

So are you proposing that when I do the carpark circles (similar to crop circles but different), I'm turning the handlebars in the direction of the turn?
Uh-uh :hitcher: That would never get the bike on its ear.

nope, just that you can steer a bike at low speeds without using counter steering, but its pretty slow slower than your Carpark circles

[sAsLEX]

but the pressure you're applying is on the inside of the left bar, and thus you're still countersteering?

IS this pressure he is applying turning him more is is he countering the the bars trying to turn more due to the angle of the front wheel and the lean angles involved, that is what I would say is happening....

[imdying]

Which is still countersteering, regardless of why you're doing it?

[Korea]

nope, just that you can steer a bike at low speeds without using counter steering, but its pretty slow slower than your Carpark circles
Ah! Now I get it... I fully agree.
Also agree with ID. Maybe during the slow carpark circles, the tyre is actually pointing in the direction of the turn, but the actual steering input is pushing forward on the inside bar.
(Or pulling slightly on the outside bar if you're doing things one-handed).
Anyways, the carpark stuff is just silly buggers but good practice.

[hXc]

Nice vids there Korea. **Hurries off to Pak 'N Save carpark**

[hXc]

**Comes back** They aren't closed yet

[Korea]

**Comes back** They aren't closed yet
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Jamezo]

Re. counter steering:

if you pay conscious attention when riding a pushbike, you'll notice something about the way it corners at relatively low speeds (~10-15kph).

to turn left, you provide an counter-steered input, you push on the left bar. this has the effect of tipping the bike in to the left.

now, if you watch carefully, you'll notice that as the bike tips in, the front wheel naturally 'falls in' to the line of the corner, to alter the contact position and balance the relationship between the center of gravity, the angle, and the position of the normal force.

this is the reason why people state 'counter-steering doesn't work at low speeds'

it does, the input is the same, but the visible effects are different.

it has little to do with gyroscopic precession; all the gyroscopic precession actually provides is a resisting force to having the angle of the wheels changed.

[Drew]

Read the first page of this thread and couldn't take any more of the shit being talked!
When cornering, put wieght on the inside bar, and outside foot peg, that's fuckin it!!!!!!
After you start decking out, move body wieght off the side,(not hanging off with your fuckin knee out,) just start with a little bit, shoulder first, then start to move yo ass over.
Keep at it.
Those of you who dont think I'm right, ask your self why Nori Haga keeps snapping foot pegs of when cornering, COS THATS HOW MUCH PREASURE GOES ON THE OUTSIDE PEG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Korea]

You're absolutely right Fizzerman!
...in fact what you wrote is the condensed version of page #1

[scracha]

More practice.
Practicing figure 8's in a closed carpark is good practice for all the skills you need on the road:
- looking at your ref' points, body position (trasitions!), brake timing, steering (er... kids... it's not really something to be all that proud of...)
That's what they do in the basic training in most Yurrupean countries. Wouldn't say figure 8's good for ALL skills <g>

Also, should be on throttle all way through a corner to unload front tyre.

Must be summit to do with how I sit on the bike but I've never got my knee down in 13 years of riding. That includes track days etc where I'm getting good angles of lean, bobbling the edge of the tyres, scraping exhausts [1] and footpegs. Find my elbows closer to the ground than my knees...weird.

[1] Mate's MK1 Fazer 600 (never seen one here), thought I was scrawping footpegs till he waved arms about and pointed at scrawped exhaust. How the hell was I to know he'd taken the hero blobs off the pegs?

[Korea]

Getting your knee down isn't the be-all and end-all of riding corners. It isn't even 'fast'. What it's good for: to lower your centre of gravity (you can keep the bike more upright) and possibly more traction for the same amount of lean, give you a gauge as to how far you're cranked over, and for me, it makes me more stable through the corner. Last one - good for photo opportunities.

About throttle:

Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.
About when:

You get the gas on at the earliest possible moment in the corner. This does not mean at the apex, right before the apex or right after the apex or at any particular part of the turn, it means AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Normally riders don't get back onto the throttle until after the steering is completed.
This makes sense. During the steering process, is is very difficult to work back into the throttle smoothly enough to keep from jerking the bike and upsetting it.
To meet the throttle standard, steering is completed before you start to get it on.
About weight:

The change in weight distribution from 70 front/ 30 rear (off the gas) to 40 front/ 60 rear (on the gas) is done as smoothly as possible to maintain stability and traction.
Quite a good read that Twist 2. Better than Twist 1 IMHO.

[Nitzer]

Cool vid and some good pointers - Thanks, I certainly need to practice my conering!

[Korea]

Ah... don't you just love reviving an old thread? No?

Have some more silly carpark videos from a little while back and didn't know where to put them.

Another bucket / minirace track plotted out with roller-blade cones. Me and the 4-stroke 125 Vs. 2-stroke NSR50.

We plotted out the corner like a miniture version of the first turn at Shanghai :-P lol

[Korea]

Same place, different day...

Was trying to see if it's possible to get an elbow down in a carpark.
Back end slid out a couple of times but I managed to stay on~!

I know it isn't exactly 'cool' riding round in circles in a carpark, but the truth is, it's pretty bloody fun if you've got a poxy little 125 you don't mind binning.
I'm thinking about breaking down the 125 and sending it over in boxes to keep practicing in NZ~ if anyone's keen? Or should I just get into bucket racing? :doobey: