Four dead and two hurt today

[Ginge09]

A bad day for bikers today.

Three accidents. Four dead and two seriously hurt.

We need to take a good hard look at ourselves and the way we do business. This is profoundly sad.

[jasonu]

Group rides are a recipe for disaster and should be avoided at all costs.

[Jeff Sichoe]

Thankfully JAG is on maternity leave otherwise she'd probabaly have banned motorcycles by now.

The anti motorcycle movement is spinning up, enjoy your petrol powered monster while you still can, lads

[rastuscat]

Group rides are a recipe for disaster and should be avoided at all costs.

Group rides are only risky because of the way they are conducted. They can be safe, and enjoyable.

The key is people not getting too close to each other, and not getting fixated on the rider ahead.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

2 second rule minimum following distance folks.

[SaferRides]

Even riding in the same lane as another motorbike can be dangerous. I'm following someone in the right lane on the motorway, he was in the RH wheel track so I was to his left and should have been clearly visible.

We're coming up to an off ramp, he hits the brakes at the last minute and exits. I was a safe distance behind, but still had to brake to avoid him.

[nzspokes]

Even riding in the same lane as another motorbike can be dangerous. I'm following someone in the right lane on the motorway, he was in the RH wheel track so I was to his left and should have been clearly visible.

We're coming up to an off ramp, he hits the brakes at the last minute and exits. I was a safe distance behind, but still had to brake to avoid him.

You need to be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear in your own lane.

[SaferRides]

You need to be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear in your own lane.Exactly, I was able to brake and avoid him. He was almost beside the offramp and had to brake to exit. No signal of course, just hard on the brakes and a dive to the left.

[Laava]

I ride with our local Ulysses branch from time to time. I never go on the rides to auckland because it is on SH1 and too much traffic for group riding IMO. Lucky for me, we are spoilt for choice up here and our branch actively encourages everyone to ride at their own pace which means that the group gets widely spread which I like. The Harley boys I see riding on SH1 in mobs, overtaking en masse are just an accident waiting to happen. I can,t watch!

[MD]

Sad news.

fuel for the nanny state to legistrate us off the roads along with e-scooters.

Charity rides do seem to feature too often? The few I've joined were scary though. Too many clowns in close proximity is bad mix. From what I heard on TV the Southland crash was a head on between 2 bikes on a bend by the picture. Always stay on your side of the centreline people. Sadly with head on crashes one party was innocent.

I'm riding the SI in two weeks and these tragedies make me nervous.

[sugilite]

This time of year always seems to be really bad :no:

[OddDuck]

Even riding in the same lane as another motorbike can be dangerous. I'm following someone in the right lane on the motorway, he was in the RH wheel track so I was to his left and should have been clearly visible.

We're coming up to an off ramp, he hits the brakes at the last minute and exits. I was a safe distance behind, but still had to brake to avoid him.

I had similar on Friday. Was tootling along minding my own business on the flat between Rimutaka Hill and Te Marua, a Harley appears from behind, appearing to materialise out of thin air on my 2 o'clock. He'd done an overtake inside my lane, maybe a meter clearance between us. Part of that might be on me, I have a longterm bad habit of centering in the lane or riding in the left wheel track, but I genuinely had no idea that he was there. If I'd corrected to the right hand wheel track it could have got very ugly.

[Zipper2T]

Saw an old guy on a Harley blow through a double lane roundabout. Ignored the lane markings, no indication, changed lanes again just after the roundabout with no indication, only form of PPE was a black hard hat of some kind.

[pritch]

Sad news.
Charity rides do seem to feature too often? The few I've joined were scary though. Too many clowns in close proximity is bad mix.

True that.

The risks arise when you ride with people you don't know. If you only ride with people you know to be sensible you should be OK.

Rules for group rides:

Rule 1. Arrive on time with a full tank and an empty bladder.

Rule 2. Go your own speed.

If they can't manage rule 1, and many can't, they can ride with somebody else. I'm probably going elsewhere.

[Grumph]

I'm riding the SI in two weeks and these tragedies make me nervous.

They should. The SI in summer tourist season is dangerous.

[awayatc]

Saw an old guy on a Harley blow through a double lane roundabout. Ignored the lane markings, no indication, changed lanes again just after the roundabout with no indication, only form of PPE was a black hard hat of some kind.

Did he crash? Was he in a group? Did he cause a near crash?
Do you have a point?

[nerrrd]

Did he crash? Was he in a group? Did he cause a near crash?
Do you have a point?

I think he does.

Sure the way might have been clear for him this time, and maybe it will be next time, and the next, by which time riding this way becomes a habit for him or her, familiarity becomes contempt, and the risk of misjudging the next intersection increases.

Or, depending on how tight the roundabout was, it might have been the only way he or she could get the Harley around it lol. And turning those indicator thingies on and off gets awfully complicated at times.

[jasonu]

Even riding in the same lane as another motorbike can be dangerous. I'm following someone in the right lane on the motorway, he was in the RH wheel track so I was to his left and should have been clearly visible.

We're coming up to an off ramp, he hits the brakes at the last minute and exits. I was a safe distance behind, but still had to brake to avoid him.

You should have followed him and punched him right in the cock at the first opportunity.

[Fresh Oats]

Thankfully JAG is on maternity leave otherwise she'd probabaly have banned motorcycles by now.

The anti motorcycle movement is spinning up, enjoy your petrol powered monster while you still can, lads

Wait what? there's an anti-motorbike "movement"? jesus christ...
Middle class stay at home mums with nothing better to do and absolutely no experience with motorbikes no doubt.

[Paul in NZ]

Wait what? there's an anti-motorbike "movement"? jesus christ...
Middle class stay at home mums with nothing better to do and absolutely no experience with motorbikes no doubt.

I would venture to suggest that middle class stay at home mums are the demographic least represented in motorcycle accident statistics

[SaferRides]

You should have followed him and punched him right in the cock at the first opportunity.The thought did briefly cross my mind. But it was a nice day, I had an almost new rear tyre, and I was only a few minutes from the back roads of the North Waikato.

[rastuscat]

Saw an old guy on a Harley blow through a double lane roundabout. Ignored the lane markings, no indication, changed lanes again just after the roundabout with no indication, only form of PPE was a black hard hat of some kind.

Long live Darwinism.

[FJRider]

Saw an old guy on a Harley blow through a double lane roundabout. Ignored the lane markings, no indication, changed lanes again just after the roundabout with no indication, only form of PPE was a black hard hat of some kind.

I've seen Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and yes even Moto-Guzzi riders do the same thing. What is you point/issue .. ??? <_<

[FJRider]

Wait what? there's an anti-motorbike "movement"? jesus christ...
Middle class stay at home mums with nothing better to do and absolutely no experience with motorbikes no doubt.

Do the search on facebook. There's bound to be one ... ;)

[pritch]

I would venture to suggest that middle class stay at home mums are the demographic least represented in motorcycle accident statistics

Yeah, some of them do bugger-all but sit around in Parliament all day.

[eldog]

Group rides can be safe and enjoyable.

The key is people not getting too close to each other

Familiarity breeds contempt..


Saw an old guy on a Harley blow through a double lane roundabout. Ignored the lane markings, no indication, changed lanes again just after the roundabout with no indication, only form of PPE was a black hard hat of some kind.


Long live Darwinism.


I've seen Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and yes even Moto-Guzzi riders do the same thing. What is you point/issue .. ??? <_<

Being old, does that mean Darwinism doesn’t work?
Or does being old mean that there maybe experience and skill.

With more road users, you have to be more careful.

very few road users ‘think about others’ less about motorbikes.

[FJRider]

Being old, does that mean Darwinism doesn’t work?


Nothing to do with "Darwinism" ... simply ignoring / obeying a rule if it suits ...

Picking and choosing which rule suits them best at the time ... especially if they think/know they'll get away with it.

Knowing a rule is one thing ... but few know (or care) about the exceptions to those rules ...

Members of the "I know my rights" brigade live by these principals ...

[Ginge09]

Dragging this back to my initial point...

We need to do business better. Motorcycling is essentially about freedom and fun but coming home dead defeats both.

If we killed four tourists or four truckies in a single day we’d be talking about it but probably not doing anything different ourselves.

We need to do things differently. Preaching to the converted here because we’re all alive and posting on the the forum.

Group rides are dangerous. Occasional riders are dangerous . The start of the riding season is dangerous.

It’s not rocket surgery.

[rastuscat]

Dragging this back to my initial point...

We need to do business better. Motorcycling is essentially about freedom and fun but coming home dead defeats both.

If we killed four tourists or four truckies in a single day we’d be talking about it but probably not doing anything different ourselves.

We need to do things differently. Preaching to the converted here because we’re all alive and posting on the the forum.

Group rides are dangerous. Occasional riders are dangerous . The start of the riding season is dangerous.

It’s not rocket surgery.

I'll pick something from my comment on the Lime scooters thread.

It's not the vehicle that's dangerous. It's the way the vehicle is used.

[Berries]

Less of this 'we' shit would be good as well.

[OddDuck]

Less of this 'we' shit would be good as well.

+1, I doubt that the bikers we're discussing bother with forums... or ATGATT... or RideForever... or... you get the idea

[nerrrd]

I doubt anything will come of this but posted for interest.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376234/men-in-mid-life-crisis-causing-motorcycle-deaths-nash

[SaferRides]

If you look at the data, "we" are doing better than car drivers. The death rate has been steady since 2013, with a slight rise earlier this year.

4 in a weekend isn't good, but it doesn't reflect the long term trend.

[SaferRides]

I doubt anything will come of this but posted for interest.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376234/men-in-mid-life-crisis-causing-motorcycle-deaths-nash"the anecdotal evidence suggested it was middle-aged men who did not have the experience to handle large motorbikes who were involved in most accidents."

Maybe looking at the actual data, if it exists, would be more helpful?

[nerrrd]

My bike is around 225 kgs but ‘only’ 54hp, pretty sure I could kill myself on it easily enough. Haven’t ridden anything with more power, don’t see how it could make that much difference since they all have a rider controlled throttle.

Having to have a special licence for ‘bigger’ bikes might be the final nail in the coffin for local dealers.

Edit: just heard the minister on the radio, apparently they're not looking at a special licence at this point (fake news!)

[sidecar bob]

It's all about the mid life crisis:facepalm:
https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/193625-road-toll-nears-crisis-point-5-killed-2-days.html

[KezzaCFC]

"Whether there needs to be something in place where if you buy a motorcycle over a certain CC rating then you have to pass a certain sort of test or you've got to be able to prove you can handle it in difficult sorts of situations.

Wait..like the full license test?
Okay yeah if you got your full license back in '65 on the 250cc with your mate from the local police station then yeah a mandatory refresher license could prove helpful.

But its a moot point as everyone rides like a saint for an hr while their instructor is behind them, marking their every move. As soon as that's done, then boom back to old habits.

[KezzaCFC]

"the anecdotal evidence suggested it was middle-aged men who did not have the experience to handle large motorbikes who were involved in most accidents."

Maybe looking at the actual data, if it exists, would be more helpful?

This help?

[sidecar bob]

"the anecdotal evidence suggested it was middle-aged men who did not have the experience to handle large motorbikes who were involved in most accidents."

Maybe looking at the actual data, if it exists, would be more helpful?

There are a huge bunch of middle aged men who do have the expierence & skill to handle a large motorcycle.
It would be a shame if "lifestyle bikers" made it more difficult for "lifetime bikers"

I went to a funeral for an old family uncle recently & at the after do, some long lost cousin of my wife was explaining to me the joy of "rollin on her hog". She had been riding for a couple of years at best.
My wife asked, why didn't you tell her you ride, I replied, it was more fun that way.

[Zipper2T]

"Whether there needs to be something in place where if you buy a motorcycle over a certain CC rating then you have to pass a certain sort of test or you've got to be able to prove you can handle it in difficult sorts of situations.

Wait..like the full license test?
Okay yeah if you got your full license back in '65 on the 250cc with your mate from the local police station then yeah a mandatory refresher license could prove helpful.

But its a moot point as everyone rides like a saint for an hr while their instructor is behind them, marking their every move. As soon as that's done, then boom back to old habits.

At least it might encourage them to trade in the hard hat for a full face helmet.

[Fresh Oats]

If you look at the data, "we" are doing better than car drivers. The death rate has been steady since 2013, with a slight rise earlier this year.

4 in a weekend isn't good, but it doesn't reflect the long term trend.

Are we though?
We make up 16% of the road death toll. Doesn't sound that bad right? Except that there's 3,400,000ish registered cars and only 150,000ish registered motorbikes. So we're only around 4% of the traffic. And that's NOT including trucks and goods vans which there are a further 750,000ish of the traffic as well as the odd bus, moped, caravan. So we're actually less than 4%. Yet 16% of the road deaths.

Interestingly (to me anyway because I'm a young fella) it's all you old fogies that keep dying. In 2016 (the earliest data I could find with a quick google search) of the 50 motorbike rider deaths, 34 were over 40 years old, 5 in their 30's, 11 in their 20's and 1 in their teens. It was similar numbers for all the previous years. Typically baby boomers, ruining it for us millennials. :P

We also can't entirely blame it on other road users as the primary cause of crashes (in the case of fatal ones), it was found that 36% of the time we were not at fault, 8% we were partially at fault and 56% it was entirely our fault.
So yea, cars (or trucks or whatever) are at fault for a third of fatal motorbike crashes, but that still leaves 2/3rds.

Further, 14% was purely from alcohol and drugs. 20% was riding too fast for the conditions. And 13% was a combination of speed and alcohol. 53% neither of those reasons.

Overtaking makes up 7%, head on makes up 26%, loss of control makes up 36%, rear-ending 5%, intersections 20%, misc 4%, pedestrians 2%.
The interesting aspect about this though is that overtaking we're less than 40% at fault, and fatal crashes at interestions we're only at fault about 21% of the time. The key areas that are us killing us in big numbers is head on crashes (75% of the time, our fault) and loss of control (95% of time our fault).




Some study the government did put us at 21 times more likely to die on the roads compared to a car user. So I'd hardly say we're doing better than car users.
HOWEVER, the way I see it is that this is misleading. This accounts for ALL motorcyclists. Including the 27% of idiots that died while drink driving. I don't drink drive and so my chances, that 21 times more likely, goes down. This is the same for a lot of things. 21% of crashes happen to people of their learners, aka inexperienced. I've been riding for over a decade (on both urban and open roads) and so my chances go down. I ride a 250cc primarily around a city, so my chances go down. I don't do stupid overtake maneuvers, I take corners at appropriate speeds, I check my blind spots, I wear protective gear at all times etc.. etc.. etc.. so while we as a whole are 21x more likely to die, I personally and many users here most certainly are not.

I dunno. I just don't see this problem as a 'me' problem. I do my part to ride properly, I can't force other people to do the same. There has to be a level of self responsibility.
I don't even see it as a government problem. There's only so many laws you can pass. Drink driving is illegal and yet people still do it and kill themselves. Crossing the yellow line is illegal, yet people do it and kill themselves. There's always going to be a number of people who kill themselves on the roads. That's literally never gonna change. And motorbikes tend to attract a certain type of individual and so we are always going to be disproportionately represented inc rash statistics. Not much you can do about it beyond banning all motorbikes which is fucking stupid and another discussion in regards to nanny state and personal freedoms.
At the end of the day it all comes down to self responsibility for ALL road users. Know your limits, don't be a cunt.

[rastuscat]

Know your limits, don't be a cunt.

Why should I change now?

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme

[Flip]

Are we though?

At the end of the day it all comes down to self responsibility for ALL road users. Know your limits, don't be a cunt.

I have become a bit afraid of riding in anything but perfect conditions, with people I trust. I guess I have buried a few biker frends but more have dies of drugs or cancer. I have got to the stage where I look at any unknown rider and wonder if their perception of road hazards/risks is the same as mine.

At easter we took vintage military bikes down to Wanaka from Gisborne and had a brillant trip, didnt have any problems other than breakdowns, my interests these days is certanly towards vintage bikes because of the risks riding at high speed. Who would have thought that after 40 years on two wheels I would finally become wary of motorcycling.

How many folk here have taken up the ride forever cources?

[SaferRides]

This help?
Thanks. It is the total for each age though, not the rate per km or number of riders, plus the age bands are different.

I have graphed it and adjusted the age range to 10-year bands by adding the 20-24 and 25-29 numbers. Assuming that 40+ is 40-65, the total for this age band was divided by 2.5. The 15-19 group was left out as the numbers are small.

There doesn't seem to be any trend, just year to year variations. I might do the injuries later if I get bored.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/ad3a253c7e6dd0f0956760582edbb81e.jpg

[Scubbo]

...It would be a shame if "lifestyle bikers" made it more difficult for "lifetime bikers"...


this so much this ! >_<

[jasonu]

My bike is around 225 kgs but ‘only’ 54hp,

Is it a Harley?

[jasonu]

"lifestyle bikers"


Like this faggot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zNUPDmnz4

[SaferRides]

I have become a bit afraid of riding in anything but perfect conditions, with people I trust. I guess I have buried a few biker frends but more have dies of drugs or cancer. I have got to the stage where I look at any unknown rider and wonder if their perception of road hazards/risks is the same as mine.

At easter we took vintage military bikes down to Wanaka from Gisborne and had a brillant trip, didnt have any problems other than breakdowns, my interests these days is certanly towards vintage bikes because of the risks riding at high speed. Who would have thought that after 40 years on two wheels I would finally become wary of motorcycling.

How many folk here have taken up the ride forever cources?

I did a Silver course a couple of months ago when they were free. Definitely worthwhile, it has improved my riding skills.

[KezzaCFC]

Thanks. It is the total for each age though, not the rate per km or number of riders, plus the age bands are different.

I have graphed it and adjusted the age range to 10-year bands by adding the 20-24 and 25-29 numbers. Assuming that 40+ is 40-65, the total for this age band was divided by 2.5. The 15-19 group was left out as the numbers are small.

There doesn't seem to be any trend, just year to year variations. I might do the injuries later if I get bored.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/ad3a253c7e6dd0f0956760582edbb81e.jpg

Good to put it as a graphic,
Just for interest sake, why would you divide the 40+ by 2.5?

This graph here also eludes to the same generation of motorcyclists being the top statistic.

[rastuscat]

Like this faggot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zNUPDmnz4

New bike, new tyres. The power of silicon is amazing.

[awayatc]

I

How many folk here have taken up the ride forever cources?

Done gold a wee while back when it was free.
Highly recommended.

And re grouprides.... Only if I know who I'm riding with.
The minute I see alcohol being consumed at a a stop I'm out of there.

[buggerit]

This help?

the boomers hold the majority of motorcyle licences and do the majority of road miles as you will see by the graph as
we moved from our teens to 40+

If you have mates that only ride 6 months of the year, get them out for a spin early, get in front and set a relaxed
pace on some not to challenging roads and let them settle back into the groove, plenty of stops and not a huge
day. Mates look after mates:drinknsin

[SaferRides]

Good to put it as a graphic,
Just for interest sake, why would you divide the 40+ by 2.5?

The 40+ age band is much wider than 10 years, so assuming it is 25 years (40-65), I divided by 2.5 to make to equivalent to a 10-year band.

The graph you posted is of the same data, so the first 3 age bands are 5 years, 30-39 is 10 and 40+ is more than 25.

So the graph shows 40+ as being much higher when it isn't.

[Swoop]

4 in a weekend isn't good, but it doesn't reflect the long term trend.
It is common with this time of the year though. Almost set-your-clock-to-it regular.

It would be a shame if "lifestyle bikers" made it more difficult for "lifetime bikers"...
That would screw up half of Sturgis then.

[Ulsterkiwi]

I did a ride forever course yesterday. 6 riders with anything from 5 to 30 years experience. All have done advanced riding training. Me aside I would consider them all very competent riders. Every single one of us was taken outside our comfort zone. Every single one of us learned something new and came away with a renewed desire to ride better and arguably live longer! Confidence was higher because we had tried things in a controlled environment, with opportunities to get it wrong, analyse, remediate and try again. We were all equipped with additional tools to handle things when the shit hits the fan. At the start of the day not everyone was convinced of the value of being there. At the end of the day we all wanted to do it again and bring our riding friends. It was one day, one solitary day. Imagine how good we could get if we did two or three of these things a year and actually practiced stuff in between?
Look there will always be situations where it all goes wrong. There will always be tragedy, Injury and sadly, loss of life on our roads. That said, would you not consider it smart to do something that gives you an improved chance of avoiding strife or, if it finds you anyway, getting out of it?
Nobody sets out to crash, pretty sure the poor sods who died at the weekend didn’t. [emoji3525] We do control our choices however and like the ACC ad says our next one could be a life saving one. Would you not prefer to be better equipped to make those choices?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thehovel]

This help?

Check the age groups They start at 3year gaps and end on an open end. I know of a rider 89 and still riding regularly. So the age gap of the over 40 is 49 years and don't think he is the oldest rider in NZ. Regards Richard

[Cadbury]

The 40+ age band is much wider than 10 years, so assuming it is 25 years (40-65), I divided by 2.5 to make to equivalent to a 10-year band.

The graph you posted is of the same data, so the first 3 age bands are 5 years, 30-39 is 10 and 40+ is more than 25.

So the graph shows 40+ as being much higher when it isn't.

Good job demystifying the statistics. I saw the original when I did a Ride Forever course last year and swallowed the whole "older riders are dying in increasing numbers" thing without much critique.

The actual statistic that would be more meaningful would be rider deaths per 1000 registered riders split by age class; I suspect the significant factor here is that there is a big bulge of ageing riders that make up high proportion of the riding population.

[nerrrd]

Is it a Harley?

Hardly. Har har har.

[Banditbandit]

Like this faggot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9zNUPDmnz4

Exactly - twit. If he'd made it onto the road he might have done many stupid things - and got himself killed ,,,



Good to put it as a graphic,
Just for interest sake, why would you divide the 40+ by 2.5?

This graph here also eludes to the same generation of motorcyclists being the top statistic.


Yes - clearly it is the older riders - especially the new ones or the returning ones. Yes, I know the age spread is more than 10 years ..

It's an indication that mid-life crisis can kill ...

[Zipper2T]

Thanks. It is the total for each age though, not the rate per km or number of riders, plus the age bands are different.

I have graphed it and adjusted the age range to 10-year bands by adding the 20-24 and 25-29 numbers. Assuming that 40+ is 40-65, the total for this age band was divided by 2.5. The 15-19 group was left out as the numbers are small.

There doesn't seem to be any trend, just year to year variations. I might do the injuries later if I get bored.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181118/ad3a253c7e6dd0f0956760582edbb81e.jpg


Sorry, this is self serving nonsense. You can't just "divide by 2.5" to get a much lower number while leaving the graph label as 40+. If you want to make assumptions about where the 34 fatalities(2016) in the 40+ category sit in terms of 10 year age groups, fine, but don't just leave out more than half the deaths and then claim there's no obvious pattern. There is, older riders, are disproportionately responsible for fatal motorycycle accidents.

[KezzaCFC]

The 40+ age band is much wider than 10 years, so assuming it is 25 years (40-65), I divided by 2.5 to make to equivalent to a 10-year band.

The graph you posted is of the same data, so the first 3 age bands are 5 years, 30-39 is 10 and 40+ is more than 25.

So the graph shows 40+ as being much higher when it isn't.

It is though, you can just knock 2.5 times off and still call it 40+


Check the age groups They start at 3year gaps and end on an open end. I know of a rider 89 and still riding regularly. So the age gap of the over 40 is 49 years and don't think he is the oldest rider in NZ. Regards Richard


Good job demystifying the statistics. I saw the original when I did a Ride Forever course last year and swallowed the whole "older riders are dying in increasing numbers" thing without much critique.

The actual statistic that would be more meaningful would be rider deaths per 1000 registered riders split by age class; I suspect the significant factor here is that there is a big bulge of ageing riders that make up high proportion of the riding population.

Whilst the stats need a bit of work, an extra band (40-49, 50-59, etc) or a ratio, this statement which I first referred the table to still rings true.

"the anecdotal evidence suggested it was middle-aged men who did not have the experience to handle large motorbikes who were involved in most accidents"

Key word, 'middle aged'. Middle ages also doesn't stop at 49.
i.e got their license in the 70's, had a family, stopped riding, kids left home, lots of money, buy litre bike without additional training, crash.

[SaferRides]

Sorry, this is self serving nonsense. You can't just "divide by 2.5" to get a much lower number while leaving the graph label as 40+. If you want to make assumptions about where the 34 fatalities(2016) in the 40+ category sit in terms of 10 year age groups, fine, but don't just leave out more than half the deaths and then claim there's no obvious pattern. There is, older riders, are disproportionately responsible for fatal motorycycle accidents.

Well, let's try this again. This graph compares under 40s and over 40s directly. Comparing the totals over the whole period, there are 20% fewer under 40s.

It's not a huge difference, and we don't know the relative number of riders in each category.



339610

[Banditbandit]

. There is, older riders, are disproportionately responsible for fatal motorycycle accidents.


I do not think you can make such a hard statement ..

There are three age bands - 20-29, 30-39 and 40+

40+ covers at least 30 years - and probably more ... so right there it is likely that the numbers of actual riders in that age group is way higher ...

The only real way to work it out is to take either

1) The number of deaths in each group as a percentage of the total .. or

2) split the age group into 10 year components.

It is, as I said, an indication that older return to riding or new riders are at greater risk

[Cadbury]

From the last Census result, 09-14 published in 2015:

339611

Unfortunately the census data does not break into the same 40+ group as the ACC used, splitting at 45+ instead, so the data is not exactly comparable.

From a km traveled perspective, riders 45+ do 61% of the total distance traveled. If the accident rate was proportional to distance traveled then this group should make up close to 2/3 of the death statistics. Based on the 2014 ACC death statistics, the over 40's make up 53% of the deaths. More alarming to me is the 15-29 group that travel 13% of the distance but accounts for 30% of the deaths. The in-betweeners 30-44 travel 27% of the distance but 30-39 years makes up 16% of the deaths.

So my take is that the most statistically at-risk group is younger riders, the middle group are least at risk, and us old farts are dying in larger number simply because we've got more freedom to ride a lot more than the rest.

[Berries]

I could quickly pull out the exact ages of all the riders who have died so you can make graphs a plenty but it would just continue the circular argument that always results. There are too many factors we don't know that are needed to make any valid comment on trends or patterns or to blame one group or another. Without context all the graphs are too basic.

So more older people are killed. Is that because more of them ride than young ones? Is it because they cover longer distances and have more exposure or do they do shorter distances so don't keep their skill levels up? Is it because they can afford $$$$ on a bike that is more form over function and can't go round corners like the sports bike they might have have downgraded from? If they can afford it is that what they actually did? Is it because all that free time means they can take the wife on the back and fuck the handling up when cornering? Is the fact these crashes are in the afternoons tied up with blood sugar levels, weak bladders or just needing a wee nap?

Without enough information it is way too easy to jump to conclusions.

[jasonu]

New bike, new tyres, total posing wanker with matching everything and 150+hp. The power of silicon is amazing.

Fixed it for you

[rastuscat]

Fixed it for you

Chur Jase, you da man.

[AllanB]

It's all about the mid life crisis:facepalm:
https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/193625-road-toll-nears-crisis-point-5-killed-2-days.html


As long as they provide it to all drivers on the road.

Hmmm - my 16 year old son got his learners recently - there is nothing (other than insurance) to stop me teaching him how to drive in my XR6. And when he gets his restricted he can drive anything on his own.

How is that correct when the under 25 males are statistically a higher accident risk on the roads?

Motorcyclists are a easy target for media, government and the likes - relative low numbers so we won't rock a election, and make great headlines for the press as non-riders think we are all mental anyway (maybe we are).

[jellywrestler]

- relative low numbers so we won't rock a election, and make great headlines for the press as non-riders think we are all mental anyway (maybe we are).

remember the bumper stickers, 250000 licensed gun owners are also voters, we have enough we just don't unite...

[AllanB]

remember the bumper stickers, 250000 licensed gun owners are also voters, we have enough we just don't unite...


That's a good point.

Was there not some MC protest ride some years back to parliament or something and some of the riders fell off .......

[Fresh Oats]

I have become a bit afraid of riding in anything but perfect conditions, with people I trust. I guess I have buried a few biker frends but more have dies of drugs or cancer. I have got to the stage where I look at any unknown rider and wonder if their perception of road hazards/risks is the same as mine.

At easter we took vintage military bikes down to Wanaka from Gisborne and had a brillant trip, didnt have any problems other than breakdowns, my interests these days is certanly towards vintage bikes because of the risks riding at high speed. Who would have thought that after 40 years on two wheels I would finally become wary of motorcycling.

How many folk here have taken up the ride forever cources?

Yea I should do one of those courses.
I never learned to ride, no one ever showed me and no one I know rides. My learning period was "I just brought my first motorbike and I'm gonna ride it around in circles in our back paddock for a week or two".
Mind you, the paddock was rather muddy (especially after a few circles) so it wasn't terrible training. But still, all my experience in learning has been personal, no ones shown or taught me anything. So I do wonder at times if I'm doing some basic things wrong and have some pretty bad habits that might bite me in the butt down the road.

[sidecar bob]

remember the bumper stickers, 250000 licensed gun owners are also voters, we have enough we just don't unite...

I got my knees in the breeze bro, I don't want to unite with those adventure bike homo's.

[Trade_nancy]

I got my knees in the breeze bro, I don't want to unite with those adventure bike homo's.

No apostrophe used in plural of "homo".....

[Swoop]

So more older people are killed. Is that because more of them ride than young ones? Is it because...
Younger riders go shorter distances to shag their bit of fluff.
Oldies are on the road more so as to not get nagged from 'er indoors & endless chores to be done.

A possible theory? :cool:

[Ocean1]

This help?

With the top age group probably accounting for well over half the riders on the road, and far more actual miles?

Not a jot.

[Ginge09]

I did a ride forever course yesterday. 6 riders with anything from 5 to 30 years experience. All have done advanced riding training....

.....At the start of the day not everyone was convinced of the value of being there. At the end of the day we all wanted to do it again and bring our riding friends. It was one day, one solitary day. Imagine how good we could get if we did two or three of these things a year and actually practiced stuff in between....

.....There will always be tragedy, Injury and sadly, loss of life on our roads. That said, would you not consider it smart to do something that gives you an improved chance of avoiding strife or, if it finds you anyway, getting out of it......


Thanks Ulsterkiwi,

That's what I was trying to say.

We can tweak the statistics as much as we like ( who are you people?) but we can also get a bit of training and recognise the inherent danger in what we do.

[KezzaCFC]

With the top age group probably accounting for well over half the riders on the road, and far more actual miles?

Not a jot.

this statement which I first referred the table to still rings true.

"the anecdotal evidence suggested it was middle-aged men who did not have the experience to handle large motorbikes who were involved in most accidents"

[jellywrestler]

I got my knees in the breeze bro, I don't want to unite with those adventure bike homo's.

it's people like you who wear shorts on a bike that give us a bad name....

[jellywrestler]

how do they know all this data, from memory when the census asked about motor vehicles, they said to exclude motorcycles?

[Berries]

I knew it all along. According to the New Zealand Motorcycling Safety Consultants it is all the governments fault - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/motorcycle-club-head-objects-police-ministers-call. (https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/motorcycle-club-head-objects-police-ministers-call) Nothing to do with rider responsibility at all, what was I thinking.

At least the AA are going to save us.



:facepalm:

[nerrrd]

Clive Matthew Wilson was briefly on RNZ this morning saying that voluntary training courses only cater for those who are already safety conscious, he was suggesting fitness / reflexes / hand-eye coordination tests instead for older riders along the lines of the compulsory medical requirements for elderly drivers.

I think I would probably fail on all counts :( .

[KezzaCFC]

I knew it all along. According to the New Zealand Motorcycling Safety Consultants it is all the governments fault - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/motorcycle-club-head-objects-police-ministers-call. (https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/motorcycle-club-head-objects-police-ministers-call) Nothing to do with rider responsibility at all, what was I thinking.

At least the AA are going to save us.



:facepalm:

"Every other Western country makes anti-locks on motorcycles compulsory - they've done it for years - and yet governments have, for years, ignored that and a few other things to do with motorcycle safety, and motorcyclists have kept on dying.''

What? is ABS compulsory in Aussie? then how did I get around on a VTR250? Or is it on new imported?

Anyway, what a load of rubbish

[pritch]

Clive Matthew Wilson was briefly on RNZ this morning saying that voluntary training courses only cater for those who are already safety conscious, he was suggesting fitness / reflexes / hand-eye coordination tests instead for older riders along the lines of the compulsory medical requirements for elderly drivers.

I think I would probably fail on all counts :( .

Since I was already of the opinion that Mr Wilson was an idiot that comment changes nothing. Motorcyclists do the same elderly tests as car drivers. I know this, because last week my mail included an invite to participate.


"Every other Western country makes anti-locks on motorcycles compulsory - they've done it for years - and yet governments have, for years, ignored that and a few other things to do with motorcycle safety, and motorcyclists have kept on dying.''

Anyway, what a load of rubbish

European Community regulations were going to make ABS compulsory on all new models homologated after January 1 2016. Other countries are in the process of introducing their own regulations. "They've done it for years" is stretching it.

Bluewing used to import bikes without ABS to 'maintain their margins' IIRC. Hopefully it won't be worth the manufacturers shagging about for a tiny market like ours, and almost everything will come with ABS sooner rather than later.

Typically the regulations have exclusions, such as dirt bikes, what our bureaucrats will come up with is anybody's guess.

[nerrrd]

Since I was already of the opinion that Mr Wilson was an idiot that comment changes nothing. Motorcyclists do the same elderly tests as car drivers. I know this, because last week my mail included an invite to participate.

I assumed he was wanting to test all the "mid-life crisis" riders as well? So these tests would kick in a lot earlier for anyone wanting to keep their full licence (maybe 50 onwards?)

[Banditbandit]

Group rides are a recipe for disaster and should be avoided at all costs.

Oh crap .. there were other group rides on that weekend - and nothing happened there ... we do not know if these riders were part of a group ride at the time - or whether they were coming from or going to a group ride ..

I was lead rider in a group a week ago - 62 bikes - had NO incidents at all - count them - NO INCIDENTS ..

There are group rides every weekend - and nothing happens at most of those ..

[pritch]

I assumed he was wanting to test all the "mid-life crisis" riders as well? So these tests would kick in a lot earlier for anyone wanting to keep their full licence (maybe 50 onwards?)

Given that our allotted span is three score years and ten, mid life is 35.

Mr Wilson can shove any extra tests.

I became aware of a "returning rider" having just bought a new bike, bigger than anything he'd had back in the day, but not particularly powerful, a metric cruiser. I offered his wife, who I worked with, use of any of the small library of "how to ride" manuals I have here but she declined."He'll figure it out".

A couple of weeks later I asked how the biking was going and received the reply that the bike was away for repairs having crashed.
"What happened?"
"A dog ran out."

The books may or may not have helped, but Mt Wilson's tests would have been irrelevant unless there are tests for overconfidence and lack of knowledge.

[SaferRides]

Clive Matthew Wilson was briefly on RNZ this morning saying that voluntary training courses only cater for those who are already safety conscious, he was suggesting fitness / reflexes / hand-eye coordination tests instead for older riders along the lines of the compulsory medical requirements for elderly drivers.

I think I would probably fail on all counts :( .Just as well the ACC don't use him as a consultant. Why the media keep interviewing this guy is beyond me.

[Ulsterkiwi]

I knew it all along. According to the New Zealand Motorcycling Safety Consultants it is all the governments fault - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/motorcycle-club-head-objects-police-ministers-call. (https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/motorcycle-club-head-objects-police-ministers-call) Nothing to do with rider responsibility at all, what was I thinking.

At least the AA are going to save us.



:facepalm:

Yeah, makes you wonder where they get people from to comment for pieces like this.

I think the AA thing is an example of not understanding the world they are reporting on, or trying to report to others who are not familiar with the area of interest. What has happened is the AA has become one of the providers of the R4E programme. There is nothing new in what is being offered, but ACC are trying to step up availability, especially to regions not as well catered for to date. Ironically because the AA do not have a motorcycle training side to their business per se, they are subcontracting delivery to motorcycle instructors. I guess AA is a brand most New Zealanders are familiar with. Few outside of motorcycling will have heard of R4E, this way a connection is made using familiar names or things?

[Ulsterkiwi]

Just as well the ACC don't use him as a consultant. Why the media keep interviewing this guy is beyond me.

the sideburns?

[Ocean1]

this statement which I first referred the table to still rings true.

"the anecdotal evidence suggested it was middle-aged men who did not have the experience to handle large motorbikes who were involved in most accidents"

It rings like a festering pile of propaganda, the table doesn't even refer to bike size. It's so obviously spun to present a presupposed argument against "born again" bikers it deserves zero credibility

And as it's exactly this sort of political spin that creates most "anecdotal evidence" that source is also about as credible as your aunt's knitting circle.

[FJRider]

Preaching to the converted here because we’re all alive and posting on the the forum.

Group rides are dangerous. Occasional riders are dangerous . The start of the riding season is dangerous.

It’s not rocket surgery.

The fact is ... that members of Kiwibiker are not immune from a motorcycle accident ... and being in one is likely on any ride I'm pretty sure most will know of one member (not necessarily personally) killed in a motorcycle accident. For some ... why they ride is to push the boundary's of danger and exhilaration to their own limits ... and further. Those that ride this way and live to talk of it ... tend to put it all down to THEIR skill / ability ... and not luck. In too many cases it is simply luck they owe their survival to.

We ALL need to start looking at the way WE (ourselves) ride ... and not point the finger at any one (or more) groups / types of riders. Even at the posted speed limit and us riding to the conditions ... some OTHER other road users may not be. Being "In the right" with "Right of way" will not always save you from grief. We ALL need to be more aware of OTHER road users ... even if the risk is low and you feel safe in how you are riding.

Most road accidents are caused by multiple factors ... not usually by just by one. Count the factors that might go against you as you ride ... and ask yourself just how many more is needed to be killed in an accident. The simple scary answer is usually ... just ONE more is needed. So perhaps ... wherever and whenever (and however) we ride ... we just look harder for the factor that might just kill us. The life you save might just be your own.

[FJRider]

"A dog ran out."



Cassina's partner ???

[FJRider]

I got my knees in the breeze bro, I don't want to unite with those adventure bike homo's.

If they ride BMW's ... they must be OK ... right ?? :innocent:

[KezzaCFC]

It rings like a festering pile of propaganda, the table doesn't even refer to bike size. It's so obviously spun to present a presupposed argument against "born again" bikers it deserves zero credibility

And as it's exactly this sort of political spin that creates most "anecdotal evidence" that source is also about as credible as your aunt's knitting circle.

>70% of the distance traveled by riders 30+ is on a bike that is >600cc. https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycling-y812.pdf
Can almost guarantee the deaths are on high powered bikes.
No fucking way is your average weekend warrior boomer going to choose a piddly 400cc over a 1200cc cruiser.

[Ocean1]

>70% of the distance traveled by riders 30+ is on a bike that is >600cc. https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycling-y812.pdf
Can almost guarantee the deaths are on high powered bikes.
No fucking way is your average weekend warrior boomer going to choose a piddly 400cc over a 1200cc cruiser.

They aren't constrained by LAMS regulations. That's how the regulation works, why would anyone be surprised that the more experienced riders choose bigger bikes?

I'll just ignore the "almost guarantee" thing and the "high powered weekend warrior boomer" tag as the emotive bullshit it is. Apart from maybe pointing out that most 1200cc cruisers don't have significantly more horsepower than some piddly 400cc options. Also perhaps to point out that it's nobody's fucking business what bike those weekend warrior boomer arseholes chose to ride, and nor should it be.

[Zipper2T]

They aren't constrained by LAMS regulations. That's how the regulation works, why would anyone be surprised that the more experienced riders choose bigger bikes?

I'll just ignore the "almost guarantee" thing and the "high powered weekend warrior boomer" tag as the emotive bullshit it is. Apart from maybe pointing out that most 1200cc cruisers don't have significantly more horsepower than some piddly 400cc options. Also perhaps to point out that it's nobody's fucking business what bike those weekend warrior boomer arseholes chose to ride, and nor should it be.


When the old fools are crashing off the road every weekend, it becomes everybody's fucking business.

[rastuscat]

If they ride BMW's ... they must be OK ... right ?? :innocent:

Works for me.

On a more serious note when are we going to own this? Instead of bandying stats around.

It's always someone else.

We just finished a research project into drivers attitudes. In a very academic way, and I'll translate for the current audience, here's what we confirmed.

Almost everyone thinks they are better than average. Now, I'm no statistician, but that can't be true. Or the average would be higher.

Almost everyone thinks everyone else is the problem.

Almost everyone thinks education is a good idea. But only for everyone else. Very few see the need to do it themselves.

Almost everyone thinks the drivers in this country are awful. But almost nobody wants speed limits to be reduced. Go figure. We all support bad drivers, driving at unsafe speeds.

Owning the problem means owning the solutions. This is my insight. People turning across our path are always going to happen, but let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like increasing our awareness, anticipating the error, factoring it into our positioning and speed.

But nah, easier to bang away about how everyone else is the problem.

[Laava]

Works for me.

On a more serious note when are we going to own this? Instead of bandying stats around.

It's always someone else.

We just finished a research project into drivers attitudes. In a very academic way, and I'll translate for the current audience, here's what we confirmed.

Almost everyone thinks they are better than average. Now, I'm no statistician, but that can't be true. Or the average would be higher.

Almost everyone thinks everyone else is the problem.

Almost everyone thinks education is a good idea. But only for everyone else. Very few see the need to do it themselves.

Almost everyone thinks the drivers in this country are awful. But almost nobody wants speed limits to be reduced. Go figure. We all support bad drivers, driving at unsafe speeds.

Owning the problem means owning the solutions. This is my insight. People turning across our path are always going to happen, but let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like increasing our awareness, anticipating the error, factoring it into our positioning and speed.

But nah, easier to bang away about how everyone else is the problem.

Well, that's abit creepy! You've been talking to my wife!

[Ocean1]

When the old fools are crashing off the road every weekend, it becomes everybody's fucking business.

Firstly, no it fucking doesn't.

And secondly, they're not.

All clear now?

[jellywrestler]

But almost nobody wants speed limits to be reduced. .

and each time they do you just dumb down the drivers on these roads, they're all driving round in a day dream, and dead scared of getting nabbed trying to get past someone who is five ks under or incompetant which just means everyones more pissed off.

[Murray]

Firstly, no it fucking doesn't.

And secondly, they're not.

All clear now?

Cassina back under another name? Doesn't listen or understand anything

[rastuscat]

Well, that's abit creepy! You've been talking to my wife!

It informs how I'll be spinning my advertising campaigns. Blame someone else, then give some control.

For example, imagine seeing this billboard "People make mistakes, so slow down". This allows us to blame others, but have a solution.

Another gem. "People make mistakes, so wear your seatbelt".

How does my focus group (your wife) react to these gems?

[rastuscat]

and each time they do you just dumb down the drivers on these roads, they're all driving round in a day dream, and dead scared of getting nabbed trying to get past someone who is five ks under or incompetant which just means everyones more pissed off.

Said it further up this thread. We all think drivers are crap, but we're happy to have their kinetic energy and mistakes continue to happen at the speeds they do.

[Ocean1]

Works for me.

On a more serious note when are we going to own this? Instead of bandying stats around.

It's always someone else.

We just finished a research project into drivers attitudes. In a very academic way, and I'll translate for the current audience, here's what we confirmed.

Almost everyone thinks they are better than average. Now, I'm no statistician, but that can't be true. Or the average would be higher.

Almost everyone thinks everyone else is the problem.

Almost everyone thinks education is a good idea. But only for everyone else. Very few see the need to do it themselves.

Almost everyone thinks the drivers in this country are awful. But almost nobody wants speed limits to be reduced. Go figure. We all support bad drivers, driving at unsafe speeds.

Owning the problem means owning the solutions. This is my insight. People turning across our path are always going to happen, but let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like increasing our awareness, anticipating the error, factoring it into our positioning and speed.

But nah, easier to bang away about how everyone else is the problem.

It's two separate issues.

Firstly, politicised bullshit needs to be pointed and laughed at or imbeciles think it's real.

Secondly, it's never anyone else's problem, nor do most around here think otherwise.

Also, what makes you think anyone gets to own any solution on anyone else's behalf? If we're supposed to take responsibility for our own safety then how does it work that everyone else gets to dictate how we go about that?

Sounds to me like you want everyone to agree that they, personally are responsible for issues that you've got a problem with and also to agree with how they should go about fixing that for you.

[rastuscat]

It's two separate issues.

Firstly, politicised bullshit needs to be pointed and laughed at or imbeciles think it's real.

Secondly, it's never anyone else's problem, nor do most around here think otherwise.

Also, what makes you think anyone gets to own any solution on anyone else's behalf? If we're supposed to take responsibility for our own safety then how does it work that everyone else gets to dictate how we go about that?

Sounds to me like you want everyone to agree that they, personally are responsible for issues that you've got a problem with and also to agree with how they should go about fixing that for you.

Nope, I may have written it to cause misunderstanding. I'll simplify.

I'd like people to do what they can to avoid shit that might happen to them.

It's actually possible to do this, and still enjoy riding.

My solutions are mine to address, not anyone elses.

[Murray]

dead scared of getting nabbed trying to get past someone who is five ks under or incompetant which just means everyones more pissed off.

What like Banditbandit

"A couple of weeks ago I came across a group of slow riders (doing under 100kph) wearing hi-Viz vests - I went round the outside on a wide open left-hander about 140klicks - found out later it was a Ride Forever course ... () .. bet the trainer had a bit to say to his pupils about the hoon on the Bandit .."

Is that cool?

[russd7]

Those that ride this way and live to talk of it ... tend to put it all down to THEIR skill / ability ... and not luck. In too many cases it is simply luck they owe their survival to.[/B].

speak for yourself, do you also have trouble missing dogs?

yes luck does play a part but it is a very small part.
im no racer but I do push the boundaries from time to time and I have had some very close calls but luck had nothing to do with me avoiding them, awareness did.

[rastuscat]

What like Banditbandit

"A couple of weeks ago I came across a group of slow riders (doing under 100kph) wearing hi-Viz vests - I went round the outside on a wide open left-hander about 140klicks - found out later it was a Ride Forever course ... () .. bet the trainer had a bit to say to his pupils about the hoon on the Bandit .."

Is that cool?

The day of the fatal 1V on the back of Dyers Pass I had a group of learners out on Gebbies. Between Motukarara and when we met the road closure on Dyers we were overtaken by several high speed litre pocket rockets, and several cruisers of a particular brand. Sounds like Harley Ferguson.

I really had to explain to my lot that one day, they could choose to do what the demo riders were doing, but first I'd prefer them to become competent.

Interesting that anyone doing less than 100 is a slow rider. Maybe it's just someone enjoying the ride.

The rules on speed are easy in NZ. You can go as fast as you like, as long as you don't go faster than the number on the sign, and you can go as slow as you like, as long as you don't hold anyone up. I'm kind of a fan of both sides of those rules.

[Zipper2T]

and each time they do you just dumb down the drivers on these roads, they're all driving round in a day dream, and dead scared of getting nabbed trying to get past someone who is five ks under or incompetant which just means everyones more pissed off.


There are two e's in incompetent bro.

[FJRider]

There are two e's in incompetent bro.

But only ONE in incompetant ... :shifty:

[bikaholic]

But only ONE in incompetant ... :shifty:Amazing, and only ONE in pedantic

[Berries]

Amazing, and only ONE in pedantic

You missed the full stop.

[SaferRides]

When the old fools are crashing off the road every weekend, it becomes everybody's fucking business.Well, most of us aren't. Anyway, there are probably more tourists involved in fatal accidents than bikers, but that information is censored now.

Most "old fools" ride Harleys, maybe that's the problem?

[Berries]

Anyway, there are probably more tourists involved in fatal accidents than bikers, but that information is censored now.
Don't bring that old chestnut in to the conversation. Firstly, they aren't, and where they come from is recorded the same and thus available whether it is Chch or China.

[98tls]

Evening all,dont get in much these days but caught the stats re accidents on radio whilst on shift the other day at time thought to myself no doubt that will produce a thread full of stats n bullshit so decided to check in for a gander come the end of shift. :laugh::facepalm: Not much has changed it seems though the stats are more researched for all the use they are:corn:

[Katman]

Secondly, it's never anyone else's problem, nor do most around here think otherwise.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "it's the car drivers causing all the crashes"......

You really do live in some bizarre alternative reality, don't you?

[Ocean1]

Nope, I may have written it to cause misunderstanding. I'll simplify.

I'd like people to do what they can to avoid shit that might happen to them.

It's actually possible to do this, and still enjoy riding.

My solutions are mine to address, not anyone elses.

Which is a sliding scale, all the way from high risk thrill seeking to stay in bed.

As is everyone else's solutions.

I'm not having a go at you, but we need to address the growing fashion of advocating about collective responsibility for individual behavior, regulation beyond a minimum few rules to reduce risk to others it's a complete nonsense.

And when it seeps into actual policy it's dangerous.

[rastuscat]

Have a read. The myth about it all being someone else's fault all the time can be dispelled. But those who refuse to see the facts just will keep repeating their own mantra.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-2017.pdf

[pritch]

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "it's the car drivers causing all the crashes"......


The Hurt findings indicated as follows:

"Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile.

In the multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents."

Most of us remember the "good news" in the second part of that and extrapolate that to mean that most of the time the motorcyclist is not at fault.

The other 25% of motorcycle accidents though were single vehicle accidents and it's difficult to blame someone else for those. Although that won't stop some from trying. According to my admittedly rusty math skills, that means that over half of all accidents were the fault of the motorcyclist.

Feel free to check my arithmetic.


Update: While I was posting that Rastus was busy posting his which has similar results. My math skills may be better than I thought.

[Ocean1]

Have a read. The myth about it all being someone else's fault all the time can be dispelled. But those who refuse to see the facts just will keep repeating their own mantra.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-2017.pdf

Interesting. Right up to that same graph showing "40 and over".

I'm pointing and laughing.

[Ocean1]

The Hurt findings indicated as follows:

"Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile.

In the multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents."

Most of us remember the "good news" in the second part of that and extrapolate that to mean that most of the time the motorcyclist is not at fault.

The other 25% of accidents though were single vehicle accidents and it's difficult to blame someone else for those. Although that won't stop some from trying. According to my admittedly rusty math skills, that means that over half of all accidents were the fault of the motorcyclist.

Feel free to check my arithmetic.

Correct.

Now find the same data for car drivers and compare. :corn:

[SaferRides]

The Kiwi psyche doesn't help either. Suggest to a born again biker that some training might be a good idea and they'll probably tell you to fuck off.

It's good to see the interest by some posting here about the Ride Forever courses. Make them compulsory though and people would be much more negative.

[rastuscat]

The Kiwi psyche doesn't help either. Suggest to a born again biker that some training might be a good idea and they'll probably tell you to fuck off.

It's good to see the interest by some posting here about the Ride Forever courses. Make them compulsory though and people would be much more negative.

That's the irony. ACC wanted to make Ride Forever training as accessible as possible, that's why they subsidise it so much.

Trouble is, if you make something free, people enrol, then often don't turn up. They have no skin in the game, so just don't care. That's hard to make work commercially, as the training is delivered under contract by real world companies. ACC only pays contractors for those people who actually turn up.

So ACC pay a subsidy, making the R4E courses cheap.

They are also linked to the CBTA scheme. People seem to think they are a compulsory part of CBTA, but that's not true. However, if you do a CBTA assessment without having done thew appropriate R4E course, you are most unlikely to know what you are being assessed on, and you'll be taking a punt as to passing, instead of actually having the confidence to pass well.

So, using subsidies and a link to driver licensing, ACC incentivises R4E training.

But if they make it compulsory, well, ironically less people would do it. It's a step too far. Such is the psyche of a lot of us.

It's a fact of life that the harder you make something, the greater non-compliance you'll get.

[KezzaCFC]

They aren't constrained by LAMS regulations. That's how the regulation works, why would anyone be surprised that the more experienced riders choose bigger bikes?

I'll just ignore the "almost guarantee" thing and the "high powered weekend warrior boomer" tag as the emotive bullshit it is. Apart from maybe pointing out that most 1200cc cruisers don't have significantly more horsepower than some piddly 400cc options. Also perhaps to point out that it's nobody's fucking business what bike those weekend warrior boomer arseholes chose to ride, and nor should it be.

Ahh see you are assuming because you have the credentials to ride you also have the experience. And rightly so obviously.
However, take my situation for example, I ride a 300 and I ride EVERYDAY, I do have the license to go bigger, but Im in my late 20's and just bought a house so that isn't my priority.
Now remember ive only ridden a 300. Say I stop riding for 25 years due to family commitments, then I become mortgage free, kids have left, I now have 20k to blow on a bike. Oo an R1, I'll get that. Are you going to 2 up with me knowing my history? Fuck no! Would you 2 up me now? Probably not, but you get the point.

[Ocean1]

Ahh see you are assuming because you have the credentials to ride you also have the experience. And rightly so obviously.
However, take my situation for example, I ride a 300 and I ride EVERYDAY, I do have the license to go bigger, but Im in my late 20's and just bought a house so that isn't my priority.
Now remember ive only ridden a 300. Say I stop riding for 25 years due to family commitments, then I become mortgage free, kids have left, I now have 20k to blow on a bike. Oo an R1, I'll get that. Are you going to 2 up with me knowing my history? Fuck no! Would you 2 up me now? Probably not, but you get the point.

No I'm not, it's the authorities that use licence duration to decide competence, I couldn't give a fuck how an individual decides what they'r competent to ride, like i said it's their business.

How can people get so confused about personal responsibility?

[Banditbandit]

Works for me.

On a more serious note when are we going to own this? Instead of bandying stats around.

It's always someone else.

We just finished a research project into drivers attitudes. In a very academic way, and I'll translate for the current audience, here's what we confirmed.

Almost everyone thinks they are better than average. Now, I'm no statistician, but that can't be true. Or the average would be higher.

Almost everyone thinks everyone else is the problem.

Almost everyone thinks education is a good idea. But only for everyone else. Very few see the need to do it themselves.

Almost everyone thinks the drivers in this country are awful. But almost nobody wants speed limits to be reduced. Go figure. We all support bad drivers, driving at unsafe speeds.

Owning the problem means owning the solutions. This is my insight. People turning across our path are always going to happen, but let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like increasing our awareness, anticipating the error, factoring it into our positioning and speed.

But nah, easier to bang away about how everyone else is the problem.

I totally agree ... like the TV ads say "Everyone thinks they drive well - I have never seen anyone crash well .. "

You missed one out ...

I belong to the rebellion group - I ride as a rebellion - and I break the law as a deliberate act ..

(Yeah - sometimes I get caught and pay a fine .. that's an accepted consequence)

I've survived 45 years of rebellious riding ... I'm lucky (or maybe above average - I stress maybe 'cause some of the people I ride with a way way quicker than me ...) .. but lots have not survived ...

(The night I learnt a very close friend had dumped his bike while drunk and was killed - I got totally drunk and rode home ... very stupid - lucky to still be alive - I don't do that shit any more)

I don't ride a harley as many of the rebellious group do - and many of them I see are actually shit useless on the bloody road lice ... If they ride rebelliously they are way more likely to dump it and die .. and they do ... pushing their symbols of rebellion way beyond the rider's limits - or being just plain stupid. I do ride fast, I don't pass on blind corners or other stupid shit I see ...

Your problem (or the authorities problem) is to how to reach this group - because we simply won't listen ... we are totally anti-authoritarian ..

[KezzaCFC]

No I'm not, it's the authorities that use licence duration to decide competence, I couldn't give a fuck how an individual decides what they'r competent to ride, like i said it's their business.

How can people get so confused about personal responsibility?

I agree its 100% personal responsibility, but incompetence affects us all (throughout all age groups)..higher rego fee's, bad media, therefore our business. I opening a total different kettle of fish there though

[Banditbandit]

That's the irony. ACC wanted to make Ride Forever training as accessible as possible, that's why they subsidise it so much.

Trouble is, if you make something free, people enrol, then often don't turn up. They have no skin in the game, so just don't care. That's hard to make work commercially, as the training is delivered under contract by real world companies. ACC only pays contractors for those people who actually turn up.



Yeah - all of the above - I have done training course - I learnt to handle the bike a lot better, increased my confidence, and it made me faster - DID NOT change my attitude .. or my behavior on the road ..

That's a real baseline problem the authorities are facing - not only ability and knowledge but attitude - and some of us are totally anti-authoritarian.

[RDJ]

I've checked with Ride Forever a few times for courses but none within almost 3 hours' ride from where I live.

[Swoop]

...let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like awareness...
Thinking about the other thread on helmet choices and mentioned lots of times is the field of view vertically. "drop down visors limiting view" etc, when not once has there been a mention about different types of helmets reducing peripheral view.
I like the fit of Shoei lids, but am not happy about the restriction of peripheral view. So I don't buy them.


...and each time they do you just dumb down the drivers on these roads, they're all driving round in a day dream, and dead scared of getting nabbed trying to get past someone who is five ks under or incompetant which just means everyones more pissed off.
The "solution" is lowering the speed limits. this means drivers have more time to look at their phones ... resulting in more crashes & calls for lower speed limits. Rinse & repeat.
The real solution is riding / driving to the conditions.

Cassina back under another name? Doesn't listen or understand anything
The tone of the reply sounded more like SuckMyCockman.

Said it further up this thread. We all think drivers are crap, but we're happy to have their kinetic energy and mistakes continue to happen at the speeds they do.
So long as they stay in their lane and also stay on their side of the road, they can do what they like. Someone crossing the centreline is probably the contributing factor in the majority of crashes.

[eldog]

Thinking about the restriction of peripheral view probably the contributing factor in the majority of crashes.

According to a certain KB member who must NOT be mentioned.

That and quadraped animals

[SaferRides]

Yeah - all of the above - I have done training course - I learnt to handle the bike a lot better, increased my confidence, and it made me faster - DID NOT change my attitude .. or my behavior on the road ..

That's a real baseline problem the authorities are facing - not only ability and knowledge but attitude - and some of us are totally anti-authoritarian.Yeah, a good point. Since doing the Silver course, I feel more confident cornering and am going faster. But hopefully also safer because of better positioning on corner exits. :)

[rastuscat]

Thinking about the other thread on helmet choices and mentioned lots of times is the field of view vertically. "drop down visors limiting view" etc, when not once has there been a mention about different types of helmets reducing peripheral view.
I like the fit of Shoei lids, but am not happy about the restriction of peripheral view. So I don't buy them.
.

Peripheral vision is an interesting concept.

Foveal vision is that which your eyes can see, and which your mind can comprehend. If you are driving at 50 kmh, you have a certain cone of foveal vision, which your eyes can see and your mind can register. As you increase speed, your foveal vision narrows. When you get to, maybe 200 kmh ish, you can see what's directly ahead, and not much in your periphery.

You can open up your peripheral vision by slowing down. It allows your eyes and brain to take in more. Or you can resort to something we recommend on Ride Forever courses, called scanning. Scanning refers to moving your head, and as a result moving your foveal visual cone from side to side, so you can see more and comprehend more.

It's easy to follow a motorcyclist and see who scans. A lot of very experienced riders just stare at the place they are going. The folk who have progressed through CBTA have had scanning drilled into them, which likely means they will take in the cars that are going to pull out into their path far earlier.

I coach people to turn their head in the direction of anywhere a vehicle might enter their path.

Interesting concept. I've never found helmet openings to be a problem, I move my head. I think it's unlikely that Shoei make an unsafe helmet, but then, helmet choice is very personal preference.

Have a look at this, it is the CBTA guide. On page 8 and 9 it has the CBTA standards. Some very experienced riders could learn stuff from this, which new people are learning these days.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/Driver-Licences/docs/cbta-course-guide.pdf

[FJRider]

... I like the fit of Shoei lids, but am not happy about the restriction of peripheral view. So I don't buy them.

A simple turn of the head each way ... which we should be doing anyway at regular intervals ... and more often on busy areas would solve the issue.


The "solution" is lowering the speed limits. this means drivers have more time to look at their phones ... resulting in more crashes & calls for lower speed limits. Rinse & repeat.
The real solution is riding / driving to the conditions.

If everybody rode/drove to the conditions ... there wouldn't be as big an issue on any of the roads ... with any of the issues.

(Too) Many don't/wont. Thus the knee-jerk reaction of the authorities is then to reduce the speed limits in those areas.

Any crashes thereafter should be then at slower speeds ... that's if the speed limits are actually being obeyed. If they're not ... all bets are off and nothing has changed.

Then the authorities go to plan B. Which is usually reduce the speed limit ... again. And put bigger speed limit signs up.


So long as they stay in their lane and also stay on their side of the road, they can do what they like. Someone crossing the centreline is probably the contributing factor in the majority of crashes.

But (TOO) many don't keep to their side of their lane.

Which means to motorcyclists ... riding on or NEAR the center-line could be an accident waiting to happen.

[FJRider]

How can people get so confused about personal responsibility?

Simple ... There's no confusion ... they just don't give a fuck about anybody but themselves. And for them ... there the issue ends.

[roogazza]

Peripheral vision is an interesting concept.

Foveal vision is that which your eyes can see, and which your mind can comprehend. If you are driving at 50 kmh, you have a certain cone of foveal vision, which your eyes can see and your mind can register. As you increase speed, your foveal vision narrows. When you get to, maybe 200 kmh ish, you can see what's directly ahead, and not much in your periphery.
You can open up your peripheral vision by slowing down. It allows your eyes and brain to take in more.

Foveal ,thats a new word for me at least.
I don't think there's any doubt that some humans have faster brains. I know I have to re programme if I haven't been driving/riding at speed for a bit. Take racing drivers/riders , I bet they see things others don't.
Maybe in some ,the Foveal visions narrows thru fear ????? Just a couple of thoughts....Interesting tho.

[rastuscat]

Foveal ,thats a new word for me at least.
I don't think there's any doubt that some humans have faster brains. I know I have to re programme if I haven't been driving/riding at speed for a bit. Take racing drivers/riders , I bet they see things others don't.
Maybe in some ,the Foveal visions narrows thru fear ????? Just a couple of thoughts....Interesting tho.

I'll look out the source on foveal vision.

[Ulsterkiwi]

I'll look out the source on foveal vision.

It’s an anatomical description. The fovea is a section of the retina with the highest concentration of cones in the retina. Your highest level of visual acuity comes from there. It’s also the main point of focus for the lens. The parts of the retina most sensitive to movement are peripheral to the fovea. We can sense something is there if it moves but we need to shift our attention/focus so the fovea can be brought to bear if we want to see what it is, how big it is, what colour it is etc etc
Any decent anatomy text will be ok for reference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

It’s an anatomical description. The fovea is a section of the retina with the highest concentration of cones in the retina. Your highest level of visual acuity comes from there. It’s also the main point of focus for the lens. The parts of the retina most sensitive to movement are peripheral to the fovea. We can sense something is there if it moves but we need to shift our attention/focus so the fovea can be brought to bear if we want to see what it is, how big it is, what colour it is etc etc
Any decent anatomy text will be ok for reference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Feck. I had no idea I wuz that cleva

[Ulsterkiwi]

Feck. I had no idea I wuz that cleva

There’s more. We also have a blind spot. Where the optical nerve leaves the eyeball there are no rods or cones, hence we cannot sense any light that falls there. That is medial to the fovea. So we need to keep the eye moving to ensure we have the appropriate part of the retina directed at what we need to see


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MD]

Foveal vision. Now I know there is a term for what we'd talk about all those years of doing the East-west sprints. It's run on a narrow road and once you get above 250 and chasing 300 kph your vision would focus further and further ahead. It was quite noticeable how all you could see was a spot miles ahead it seemed. Everything else becomes a blur.

[rastuscat]

Foveal vision. Now I know there is a term for what we'd talk about all those years of doing the East-west sprints. It's run on a narrow road and once you get above 250 and chasing 300 kph your vision would focus further and further ahead. It was quite noticeable how all you could see was a spot miles ahead it seemed. Everything else becomes a blur.

Your eyes see it, but your mind just says "blur blur blur"

[scumdog]

I totally agree ... like the TV ads say "Everyone thinks they drive well - I have never seen anyone crash well .. "

You missed one out ...

I belong to the rebellion group - I ride as a rebellion - and I break the law as a deliberate act ..

(Yeah - sometimes I get caught and pay a fine .. that's an accepted consequence)

I've survived 45 years of rebellious riding ... I'm lucky (or maybe above average - I stress maybe 'cause some of the people I ride with a way way quicker than me ...) .. but lots have not survived ...

(The night I learnt a very close friend had dumped his bike while drunk and was killed - I got totally drunk and rode home ... very stupid - lucky to still be alive - I don't do that shit any more)

I don't ride a harley as many of the rebellious group do - and many of them I see are actually shit useless on the bloody road lice ... If they ride rebelliously they are way more likely to dump it and die .. and they do ... pushing their symbols of rebellion way beyond the rider's limits - or being just plain stupid. I do ride fast, I don't pass on blind corners or other stupid shit I see ...

Your problem (or the authorities problem) is to how to reach this group - because we simply won't listen ... we are totally anti-authoritarian ..



Anti-authoritarian generally = 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

There's an army somewhere that needs you as cannon-fodder...:bleh:

[rastuscat]

Anti-authoritarian generally = 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

There's an army somewhere that needs you as cannon-fodder...:bleh:

Scummie comes out of retirement to defend common sense.

[bikaholic]

Scummie comes out of retirement to defend common sense.Earlier this year I applied common sense. I went from CBR1000RR to a CRF1000. I would use it to hone my rusty offroad skills and slow down on the seal. At first I thought I'd lost my mind, but slowing down is epic failure, fortunately.

[SaferRides]

Maybe in some ,the Foveal visions narrows thru fear ????? Just a couple of thoughts....Interesting tho.
No, it's just how the visual processing in the brain works. It is also one of the reasons why excessive speed is dangerous on public roads, because you just won't see some hazards.

[rastuscat]

Kind of summarizes the last few posts.

339626

You can see more and your brain can register more if you

Slow down
Move your head in a scanning motion

[pritch]

once you get above 250 and chasing 300 kph your vision would focus further and further ahead. It was quite noticeable how all you could see was a spot miles ahead it seemed. Everything else becomes a blur.

I have read mention of this several times over the years, usually associated with speeds approaching 300kph, and you've been there done that. Cool.

[Banditbandit]

Anti-authoritarian generally = 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

There's an army somewhere that needs you as cannon-fodder...:bleh:

I tried - the army would not take me - did not like my anti-authoritarian stance ..

"It won't happen to me' mentality ??? :rofl: Fuck me - I amazed I'm still alive ... I fully expected it to have happened ..


Scummie comes out of retirement to defend common sense.

I think I would like a higher level of intelligence than 'common sense' .. 50% of the population is below average intelligence .. so much for common sense ..

[Ocean1]

I have read mention of this several times over the years, usually associated with speeds approaching 300kph, and you've been there done that. Cool.

I tried, once. For scientific reasons y'undertand.

The genuinely 300kph Hayabusa that passed me at the time didn't do so all that quickly, but more to the point I also can report that my brain was indeed far too busy dealing with other shit to be bothered about what my eyes might be seeing six inches in front of my face.

Not that I can actually see the speedo all that well at any other speed, mind...

[Berries]

So here's one of them.

https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/rider-charged-after-death-passenger

[pritch]

my brain was indeed far too busy dealing with other shit to be bothered about what my eyes might be seeing six inches in front of my face.


That would be true. The references I had seen previously were all racers or would have had other means of checking their actual speed. For the reason you mention though, I'm always sceptical when people are telling me of the high speed at which they took a particular corner. I find that if my relatively sedate speed is getting up there, I'm too busy to look at what the speedo is doing.

[Katman]

So here's one of them.

Fucking cagers.

[trustme]

Fucking cagers.

WTF I guess that's sarcasm

[rastuscat]

So here's one of them.

https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/rider-charged-after-death-passenger

Classic case, that.

One of my concerns about group rides is the guys who don't know how to just have one beer at a lunch stop. In my view, alcohol and motorcycling just don't mix. At all.

[rastuscat]

That would be true. The references I had seen previously were all racers or would have had other means of checking their actual speed. For the reason you mention though, I'm always sceptical when people are telling me of the high speed at which they took a particular corner. I find that if my relatively sedate speed is getting up there, I'm too busy to look at what the speedo is doing.

I guess that is coz most keyboard warriors on here are awesomer than you.

[trustme]

Hey Rastus , can you confirm that the highest motorcycle acc claimants are as follows

1/ Sport bike riders
2/ Scooters
3/ Lams

Cruisers ie Harleys etc are down the list

I can't believe I am defending Harleys riders, I'm so ashamed

[Zipper2T]

Hey Rastus , can you confirm that the highest motorcycle acc claimants are as follows

1/ Sport bike riders
2/ Scooters
3/ Lams

Cruisers ie Harleys etc are down the list

I can't believe I am defending Harleys riders, I'm so ashamed


The bike types
most in fatal
crashes were
CRUISER BIKES
SPORTS BIKES
Scooters were only 2% of the fatal crashes.

Fatally or seriously injured – annual average
July 2009-June 2014, 58% were riding bikes of 600cc or more, only 12% were riding bikes of less than 60cc.



https://msac.org.nz/assets/Uploads/pdf/2017-Motor-cycle-safety-a-single-point-of-truth.pdf

[SaferRides]

The bike types
most in fatal
crashes were
CRUISER BIKES
SPORTS BIKES
Scooters were only 2% of the fatal crashes.

Fatally or seriously injured – annual average
July 2009-June 2014, 58% were riding bikes of 600cc or more, only 12% were riding bikes of less than 60cc.



https://msac.org.nz/assets/Uploads/pdf/2017-Motor-cycle-safety-a-single-point-of-truth.pdfWhat are the categories?

Just thinking it might be safer to sell the R1 and buy a KTM 1290 Adventure. :)

[Brett]

Can I just start blaming this on Trump, fake news and global warming? Thanks guys.


Oh yeah...ban motorbikes. They are dangerous and everyone needs to conform and use cars or public transport.

Hooroo then.

[jasonu]

Can I just start blaming this on Trump,

Hooroo then.

I'm surprised Pritch hasn't already done that.

[roogazza]

Kind of summarizes the last few posts.

339626

You can see more and your brain can register more if you

Slow down
Move your head in a scanning motion



Cheers rastuscat, you've given me some reading on this subject and a few new words. Coming up 70 early next year and still not too old to learn.
I'll be scanning tomoro !

[sidecar bob]

The bike types
most in fatal
crashes were
CRUISER BIKES
SPORTS BIKES
Scooters were only 2% of the fatal crashes.

Fatally or seriously injured – annual average
July 2009-June 2014, 58% were riding bikes of 600cc or more, only 12% were riding bikes of less than 60cc.



https://msac.org.nz/assets/Uploads/pdf/2017-Motor-cycle-safety-a-single-point-of-truth.pdf

Cool, adventure bikes don't even feature:bleh:
But seriously, the results were entirely predictable.

[trustme]

What percentage of recorded motorcycle accidents are fatal.??
Asking for a friend.

I guess fatals cost ACC fuck all. Surviving the off is where the costs really kick in.

[Kickaha]

once you get above 250 and chasing 300 kph your vision would focus further and further ahead. It was quite noticeable how all you could see was a spot miles ahead it seemed. Everything else becomes a blur.


We always called it tunnel vision although strictly speaking that is something else

[Swoop]

Interesting concept. I've never found helmet openings to be a problem, I move my head.
Wasn't really referring to higher speeds, more around town/general riding where it is more relevant.
Try a few different lids on at a shop one day, stand in the same spot and memorise how far out each side you can see without moving your head. Interested to hear your views.

Nothing wrong with moving your head around, but I like to see as much as possible peripherally.

A simple turn of the head each way ... which we should be doing anyway at regular intervals ... and more often on busy areas would solve the issue.
Why not ride wearing a pair of binoculars up to your eyes? You could just move them about like you suggest & would be the same effect.

[pritch]

I'm surprised Pritch hasn't already done that.

Nah. Trump's got enought to worry about just keeping track of his idiot kids.

[dangerous]

haven't read any of the posts...

While I was at a bikers funeral with a few others here... yes 4 others died, just like to add there was another the day before and the day after a guy I knew in Aussie...

sort ya shit out people and pull ya heads in before they get taken off

safe travels all...

[FJRider]

Why not ride wearing a pair of binoculars up to your eyes? You could just move them about like you suggest & would be the same effect.

Never worked for me. But if it works for you ... :2thumbsup

[Berries]

Hey Rastus , can you confirm that the highest motorcycle acc claimants are as follows

1/ Sport bike riders
2/ Scooters
3/ Lams

Cruisers ie Harleys etc are down the list
Well, perhaps Rastus can confirm ACC claims, but figured I would jump in with some numbers as well. Seems like an annual thing.

45 fatal crashes in 2017 involving motorbikes. Down from 55 the year before and 53 the year before that. Through the 80’s it was triple digits every year, peaking at 148 in 1987. Fell throughout the 90’s to 42 in 1999 then dropped in to the 30’s every year from 2000 until 2007 when it hit 40. Went to 50 in 2008 and has been bouncing around since then with only one year in the 30’s. Many reasons for those changes and no real need to go off the deep end due to one bad weekend.

So 45 fatal crashes last year, 50 bikes. Five crashes involved two bikes. In four of those crashes all eight bikes were Harleys which I found interesting and probably suggests something. So in order of appearance -

16 Harley
7 Suzuki
7 Yamaha
5 Honda
4 Triumphs
2 each BMW, Ducati and Kawasaki
1 each Can Am, Moto Guzzi, MV Augusta, SYM and TGB (mopeds)

As always, without actual data as to how many of each type of bike is on the road these figures are rather meaningless, but good to point fingers. Even with the number registered we don’t know how many km each one does, in what conditions etc etc etc. So you've got to be careful when someone says X is worse than Y because Y could be worse than X, it depends what is being pushed and by whom. Hello ACC. Note, no fault is implied in any of this, it is just the bikes involved.

I’m going to assume we can call all the Harleys cruisers here, so based on the model recorded I would say this –

21 cruisers
20 sport
4 off road style
2 proper off road
2 moped
1 Can am

The sports class is actually a bit vague, I have lumped your VTR250, XJ600 and a K1200 in there as well. It is everything that is not lean back cruiser or stand on pegs on gravel stylee.

So yeah, a few interesting things jump out. Nine out of ten crashes were on a dry road. You’d normally expect more wet road crashes than that so it does suggest a bit of fair weather riding. One quarter of the crashes were on a Sunday which is high as well. Alcohol and/or drugs were a factor in nearly half of all of these crashes. And we argue about hi-viz.

I could go on but Coro is about to start.

[SaferRides]

Hard to believe that alcohol was a factor in half of the crashes. Although if you go past almost any rural bar on a Sunday, there will be a fair few bikes parked.

When they say it was a factor, does that mean there was some alcohol present, or the rider was over the legal limit?

[Berries]

Hard to believe that alcohol was a factor in half of the crashes. Although if you go past almost any rural bar on a Sunday, there will be a fair few bikes parked.
I knew someone would pick me up on that as soon as I posted it bugger it. Alcohol includes drugs there. Ten of the 45 crashes had someone with alcohol over the limit while 12 were drugs. Edited the post to correct that.

[Taxythingy]

I guess fatals cost ACC fuck all. Surviving the off is where the costs really kick in.

No, fatals still cost ACC a shed-load. They pay surviving partners based on the dead person's earnings.

From ACC's website:
We pay 80% of the deceased's earnings.

We’ll keep making payments to a partner until either:
- five years from the date payments started
- the youngest child of the deceased in your care turns 18.

That adds up. Whether it is more or less than the medical bills, I don't know.

[Moi]

A little more about "looking" and "seeing"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeQTplZmHTQ

[Berries]

So here's one of them.

https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/rider-charged-after-death-passenger
And here's another.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/108821347/friends-travelling-in-opposite-directions-both-killed-in-collision

I am genuinely surprised nobody had posted this seeing as a week ago people were getting all hot and bothered about it.

[rastuscat]

And here's another.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/108821347/friends-travelling-in-opposite-directions-both-killed-in-collision

I am genuinely surprised nobody had posted this seeing as a week ago people were getting all hot and bothered about it.

That's the thing. Big media storm then everyone moves on.

[Stylo]

Well, perhaps Rastus can confirm ACC claims, but figured I would jump in with some numbers as well. Seems like an annual thing.

45 fatal crashes in 2017 involving motorbikes. Down from 55 the year before and 53 the year before that. Through the 80’s it was triple digits every year, peaking at 148 in 1987. Fell throughout the 90’s to 42 in 1999 then dropped in to the 30’s every year from 2000 until 2007 when it hit 40. Went to 50 in 2008 and has been bouncing around since then with only one year in the 30’s. Many reasons for those changes and no real need to go off the deep end due to one bad weekend.

So 45 fatal crashes last year, 50 bikes. Five crashes involved two bikes. In four of those crashes all eight bikes were Harleys which I found interesting and probably suggests something. So in order of appearance -

16 Harley
7 Suzuki
7 Yamaha
5 Honda
4 Triumphs
2 each BMW, Ducati and Kawasaki
1 each Can Am, Moto Guzzi, MV Augusta, SYM and TGB (mopeds)

As always, without actual data as to how many of each type of bike is on the road these figures are rather meaningless, but good to point fingers. Even with the number registered we don’t know how many km each one does, in what conditions etc etc etc. So you've got to be careful when someone says X is worse than Y because Y could be worse than X, it depends what is being pushed and by whom. Hello ACC. Note, no fault is implied in any of this, it is just the bikes involved.

I’m going to assume we can call all the Harleys cruisers here, so based on the model recorded I would say this –

21 cruisers
20 sport
4 off road style
2 proper off road
2 moped
1 Can am

The sports class is actually a bit vague, I have lumped your VTR250, XJ600 and a K1200 in there as well. It is everything that is not lean back cruiser or stand on pegs on gravel stylee.

So yeah, a few interesting things jump out. Nine out of ten crashes were on a dry road. You’d normally expect more wet road crashes than that so it does suggest a bit of fair weather riding. One quarter of the crashes were on a Sunday which is high as well. Alcohol and/or drugs were a factor in nearly half of all of these crashes. And we argue about hi-viz.

I could go on but Coro is about to start.

I'm interested in the proportion of these numbers that were caused by a 4 wheeled vehicle fucking it up. Every day you see car and truck drivers on their phone . A bit difficult to send a text when you're riding a Hayabusa or a GN125. My 5 cents

[FJRider]

... When they say it was a factor, does that mean there was some alcohol present, or the rider was over the legal limit?

10 km/hr over the speed limit and "speed" is a factor. Just as "under the influence" does not necessarily mean over the limit ... just "A factor" ...

[trustme]

I'm interested in the proportion of these numbers that were caused by a 4 wheeled vehicle fucking it up. Every day you see car and truck drivers on their phone . A bit difficult to send a text when you're riding a Hayabusa or a GN125. My 5 cents

3 riders, 1 pillion killed not 1 car involved.To be blunt rider error in all cases. Over 50% of motorcycle accidents are single vehicle ie no car involved

I'd ask for my money back

[Berries]

I'm interested in the proportion of these numbers that were caused by a 4 wheeled vehicle fucking it up. Every day you see car and truck drivers on their phone . A bit difficult to send a text when you're riding a Hayabusa or a GN125. My 5 cents
When asked about fault in motorbike crashes I always think of a third, third and third and as it happens that is roughly how this looks. To be fully accurate you would need to read the full reports and even then, one of the main witnesses isn't around to be interviewed so it will never be 100 percent.

By my brief reckoning 16 crashes involved a bike and no other moving vehicles, 15 crashes involved more than one vehicle and the bike rider would appear to be primarily at fault and the remaining 14 crashes involved more than one vehicle and the primary fault would appear to rest with the other vehicle.

Fault is a curious thing though. I am of the view that in the majority of crashes where the other vehicle is considered to be at fault the rider could have got away with it if they had been concentrating on things.

[Stylo]

When asked about fault in motorbike crashes I always think of a third, third and third and as it happens that is roughly how this looks. To be fully accurate you would need to read the full reports and even then, one of the main witnesses isn't around to be interviewed so it will never be 100 percent.

By my brief reckoning 16 crashes involved a bike and no other moving vehicles, 15 crashes involved more than one vehicle and the bike rider would appear to be primarily at fault and the remaining 14 crashes involved more than one vehicle and the primary fault would appear to rest with the other vehicle.

Fault is a curious thing though. I am of the view that in the majority of crashes where the other vehicle is considered to be at fault the rider could have got away with it if they had been concentrating on things.

Ok, so we have no validated statistics then. What does that tell you ?

We still don't know how many cars / trucks etc were involved and, the numbers are meaningless without those statistics included.

By my brief reckoning indeed ....

[trustme]

Go to page 8
https://www.transport.govt.nz/resources/road-safety-resources/crashfacts/motorcyclecrashfacts/

[pritch]

Ok, so we have no validated statistics then. What does that tell you ?



What that tells me is that you aren't paying attention. Try and keep up. If you chime in half way through a thread without reading it you can end up looking silly.

[scumdog]

I'm interested in the proportion of these numbers that were caused by a 4 wheeled vehicle fucking it up. Every day you see car and truck drivers on their phone . A bit difficult to send a text when you're riding a Hayabusa or a GN125. My 5 cents


From my experience it seems to be 8 or 9 times out of 10 it is solely the bike riders fault, sure a vehicle might be involved but only because a rider got it wrong and crashed into one.

This 'those bloody cagers' battle-cry is getting a tad lame.

[nzspokes]

From my experience it seems to be 8 or 9 times out of 10 it is solely the bike riders fault, sure a vehicle might be involved but only because a rider got it wrong and crashed into one.

This 'those bloody cagers' battle-cry is getting a tad lame.

Is it time to blame the Cheese cutters yet? :mad:

[Berries]

Ok, so we have no validated statistics then. What does that tell you ?

We still don't know how many cars / trucks etc were involved and, the numbers are meaningless without those statistics included.

By my brief reckoning indeed ....
For the hard of reading 16 crashes involved only the bike and 29 crashes involved the bike and another vehicle. In 15 of those the rider was 'at fault', in 14 the other driver was 'at fault'.

Pretty simplistic breakdown based on the crash database to show some of the reality that many riders still refuse to accept. Could go in to a lot more detail but a) people won't change their view hence the 'discussion' will soon go downhill and b) you fuckers don't pay my wages.




Is it time to blame the Cheese cutters yet?
Don't forget those goddamn tourists.

[nzspokes]

Well, perhaps Rastus can confirm ACC claims, but figured I would jump in with some numbers as well. Seems like an annual thing.

45 fatal crashes in 2017 involving motorbikes. Down from 55 the year before and 53 the year before that. Through the 80’s it was triple digits every year, peaking at 148 in 1987. Fell throughout the 90’s to 42 in 1999 then dropped in to the 30’s every year from 2000 until 2007 when it hit 40. Went to 50 in 2008 and has been bouncing around since then with only one year in the 30’s. Many reasons for those changes and no real need to go off the deep end due to one bad weekend.

So 45 fatal crashes last year, 50 bikes. Five crashes involved two bikes. In four of those crashes all eight bikes were Harleys which I found interesting and probably suggests something. So in order of appearance -

16 Harley
7 Suzuki
7 Yamaha
5 Honda
4 Triumphs
2 each BMW, Ducati and Kawasaki
1 each Can Am, Moto Guzzi, MV Augusta, SYM and TGB (mopeds)

As always, without actual data as to how many of each type of bike is on the road these figures are rather meaningless, but good to point fingers. Even with the number registered we don’t know how many km each one does, in what conditions etc etc etc. So you've got to be careful when someone says X is worse than Y because Y could be worse than X, it depends what is being pushed and by whom. Hello ACC. Note, no fault is implied in any of this, it is just the bikes involved.

I’m going to assume we can call all the Harleys cruisers here, so based on the model recorded I would say this –

21 cruisers
20 sport
4 off road style
2 proper off road
2 moped
1 Can am

The sports class is actually a bit vague, I have lumped your VTR250, XJ600 and a K1200 in there as well. It is everything that is not lean back cruiser or stand on pegs on gravel stylee.

So yeah, a few interesting things jump out. Nine out of ten crashes were on a dry road. You’d normally expect more wet road crashes than that so it does suggest a bit of fair weather riding. One quarter of the crashes were on a Sunday which is high as well. Alcohol and/or drugs were a factor in nearly half of all of these crashes. And we argue about hi-viz.

I could go on but Coro is about to start.

Thanks for the post. Very interesting.

Apart from Coro. :eek5:

[SaferRides]

My bad, I couldn't open the link. If I look silly then I deserve to.

I'll take another look now I have some time up my sleeve. Don't be too hard on me, been a long day....
Don't be hard on yourself, it's good to see people other than the regulars joining in.

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

Same old story. Debate going on as to who is at fault.

Who is at fault doesn't matter much to your broken arm, broken leg and ruptured spleen.

Okay. So everything is everyone else's fault. I'm going to continue riding my bike so as to avoid becoming someone's victim.

[RDJ]

No, fatals still cost ACC a shed-load. They pay surviving partners based on the dead person's earnings.

From ACC's website:
We pay 80% of the deceased's earnings.

We’ll keep making payments to a partner until either:
- five years from the date payments started
- the youngest child of the deceased in your care turns 18.

That adds up. Whether it is more or less than the medical bills, I don't know.

It's more. (Inpatient) medical costs in NZ are comparatively low; fatality medical (pathology) costs lower. Largely because we don't have fuckwit NCIS-types and ambo-chasing contingency-paid lawyers. But I digress. The big costs come with post-incident rehab, income support, and childrearing as above. Largely because no-fault compo means arrant idiots pay literally none of the costs for their drunken / drugged (it usually but not always is thus-fueled) stupidity. The rest of us do.

[OddDuck]

Same old story. Debate going on as to who is at fault.

Who is at fault doesn't matter much to your broken arm, broken leg and ruptured spleen.

Okay. So everything is everyone else's fault. I'm going to continue riding my bike so as to avoid becoming someone's victim.

Precisely, you can be as correct as you like from your hospital bed or the morgue*. I'd rather keep riding thanks.

* still working on this bit

[OddDuck]

It's more. (Inpatient) medical costs in NZ are comparatively low; fatality medical (pathology) costs lower. Largely because we don't have fuckwit NCIS-types and ambo-chasing contingency-paid lawyers. But I digress. The big costs come with post-incident rehab, income support, and childrearing as above. Largely because no-fault compo means arrant idiots pay literally none of the costs for their drunken / drugged (it usually but not always is thus-fueled) stupidity. The rest of us do.

Yes... BUT drivers / riders found at fault are dealt with via the legal system. There are penalties. We can argue that they're ridiculously light or whatever, but there are fines, bans on driving etc which can be enforced.

Also but (excuse being pedantic) the arrant idiots pay their share just like the rest of us, unless they're running dark with no wof, rego, insurance, license etc... and there are penalties for that too. They do pay progressively higher insurance premiums as their crash count goes up.

[russd7]

lets face it, when two bikes collide head on in good conditions on a fairly good condition road it is because one has seriously fucked up, hard to blame that bloody cager for that one

[AllanB]

lets face it, when two bikes collide head on in good conditions on a fairly good condition road it is because one has seriously fucked up, hard to blame that bloody cager for that one


Or both overcooking a corner :facepalm:


My mindset when thinking of passing prior to a corner is simple - if another bike is coming around that corner at speed do I still have time to pass. This thought takes a micro second, most times the answer is 'NO' and I sit back and wait. After all it is just a corner right? It will be there next weekend.

[rastuscat]

Or both overcooking a corner :facepalm:


My mindset when thinking of passing prior to a corner is simple - if another bike is coming around that corner at speed do I still have time to pass. This thought takes a micro second, most times the answer is 'NO' and I sit back and wait. After all it is just a corner right? It will be there next weekend.

Far too sensible. It'll never catch on.

[pete376403]

Yes... BUT drivers / riders found at fault are dealt with via the legal system. There are penalties. We can argue that they're ridiculously light or whatever, but there are fines, bans on driving etc which can be enforced.

Also but (excuse being pedantic) the arrant idiots pay their share just like the rest of us, unless they're running dark with no wof, rego, insurance, license etc... and there are penalties for that too.

Penalties for that? A young man my grand-daughter associates with has no licence, and a shitbox BMW318 car with no reg and no WOF and obviously no insurance (so tough shit on the driver of the expensive car that he one day may crash into.) He's been stopped many times, often after 10 at night with other non licensed people in the car. Every time - told to get home and do something about the licence, wof and reg within 28 days (which of course he doesn't). Meanwhile I cant even get off a parking ticket.

[Ocean1]

Penalties for that? A young man my grand-daughter associates with has no licence, and a shitbox BMW318 car with no reg and no WOF and obviously no insurance (so tough shit on the driver of the expensive car that he one day may crash into.) He's been stopped many times, often after 10 at night with other non licensed people in the car. Every time - told to get home and do something about the licence, wof and reg within 28 days (which of course he doesn't). Meanwhile I cant even get off a parking ticket.

Well there's not much fucking point in pinging him is there? He doesn't have any money.

Which I assume doesn't apply to you. You fucking slow learner, you.

[scumdog]

Penalties for that? A young man my grand-daughter associates with has no licence, and a shitbox BMW318 car with no reg and no WOF and obviously no insurance (so tough shit on the driver of the expensive car that he one day may crash into.) He's been stopped many times, often after 10 at night with other non licensed people in the car. Every time - told to get home and do something about the licence, wof and reg within 28 days (which of course he doesn't). Meanwhile I cant even get off a parking ticket.

I suspect a certain amount of poetic licence with the claims of this young man, some may just call it bullshit.

I suspect the demerits will catch up with him even if he doesn't pay the fines

I suspect one day his BMW will be whisked away to the impound yard

[scumdog]

Or both overcooking a corner :facepalm:


My mindset when thinking of passing prior to a corner is simple - if another bike is coming around that corner at speed do I still have time to pass. This thought takes a micro second, most times the answer is 'NO' and I sit back and wait. After all it is just a corner right? It will be there next weekend.


Too logical, no place for such ideas on KB!<_<

[quickbuck]

Same old story. Debate going on as to who is at fault.

Who is at fault doesn't matter much to your broken arm, broken leg and ruptured spleen.

Okay. So everything is everyone else's fault. I'm going to continue riding my bike so as to avoid becoming someone's victim.

Yup, it doesn't matter if you are in the right, or the wrong, a 44 tonne Scania will ruin your day.

[FJRider]

Yup, it doesn't matter if you are in the right, or the wrong, a 44 tonne Scania will ruin your day.

It only takes one other motorcyclist on the wrong side to ruin your day.

[SaferRides]

Or both overcooking a corner :facepalm:


My mindset when thinking of passing prior to a corner is simple - if another bike is coming around that corner at speed do I still have time to pass. This thought takes a micro second, most times the answer is 'NO' and I sit back and wait. After all it is just a corner right? It will be there next weekend.

One of the media reports said it was a blind corner, so it could well have been they were both overtaking.

My criteria is what would happen if I met myself coming the other way. I usually wait ...



Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk

[Berries]

Photo of curve in link in post 174.

[quickbuck]

It only takes one other motorcyclist on the wrong side to ruin your day.

This is very true.

[Banditbandit]

My mindset when thinking of passing prior to a corner is simple - if another bike is coming around that corner at speed do I still have time to pass. This thought takes a micro second, most times the answer is 'NO' and I sit back and wait. After all it is just a corner right? It will be there next weekend.


Pretty much my approach - I know there are riders out there more insane than me ..



I suspect a certain amount of poetic licence with the claims of this young man, some may just call it bullshit.

I suspect the demerits will catch up with him even if he doesn't pay the fines



Can you collect demerit points if you do not have a licence ..

[SaferRides]

Photo of curve in link in post 174.
Oh. Not hard to figure out what happened.

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[KezzaCFC]

So 3/4 causes of death were middle aged men on cruisers..one pissed. The pattern continues

[dangerous]

So 3/4 causes of death were middle aged men on cruisers..one pissed. The pattern continues

well... if you mean older riders on a club pub crawl riding bad performing boat anchors... opps I mean fundraising ride... then yeah

the Pike river ride, just took this off stuff " A motorcyclist died while paying tribute to the men who died in the Pike River explosion" if you call flipping a mates bike cos mate says it wont wheelie, then tearing off and whiten 1k of the pub arse off and kill ya pillion... then fuck tributes

the two down south on a "fundraiser" if i am correct it was the brotherhood, just another MC out on a pub crawl... with a bullshit excuse fundraising in order to look better in the public's eyes...


other wise mate dont blame "middle aged men" dont blame "cruisers" but by all means blame the piss and the fuckwits that drink and drive.

[russd7]

One of the media reports said it was a blind corner, so it could well have been they were both overtaking.

My criteria is what would happen if I met myself coming the other way. I usually wait ...



Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk


first mistake is to believe the media, they also claimed in another report that there were 300 bikes on the run.

quite a fast bend, not hard and good visibility. Unless there is a car blocking your view. more to the story than what the media want to make up.

[FJRider]

well... if you mean older riders on a club pub crawl riding bad performing boat anchors... opps I mean fundraising ride... then yeah



ACC just "discovered" that Holden and Toyota cars are featuring the highest in the accident statistics ... so they intend to raise the ACC levy for those two makes of vehicles early next year ... as the drivers are obviously at a higher risk of having an injury accident.

[pete376403]

I suspect a certain amount of poetic licence with the claims of this young man, some may just call it bullshit.

I suspect the demerits will catch up with him even if he doesn't pay the fines

I suspect one day his BMW will be whisked away to the impound yard

No not bullshit and I do hope the rest catches up cos it gives me the shits that he's driving my g/daughter around. I could PM you the reg number and you could check but that might be illegal use of police resources

[buggerit]

Well, perhaps Rastus can confirm ACC claims, but figured I would jump in with some numbers as well. Seems like an annual thing.

45 fatal crashes in 2017 involving motorbikes. Down from 55 the year before and 53 the year before that. Through the 80’s it was triple digits every year, peaking at 148 in 1987. Fell throughout the 90’s to 42 in 1999 then dropped in to the 30’s every year from 2000 until 2007 when it hit 40. Went to 50 in 2008 and has been bouncing around since then with only one year in the 30’s. Many reasons for those changes and no real need to go off the deep end due to one bad weekend.

So 45 fatal crashes last year, 50 bikes. Five crashes involved two bikes. In four of those crashes all eight bikes were Harleys which I found interesting and probably suggests something. So in order of appearance -

16 Harley
7 Suzuki
7 Yamaha
5 Honda
4 Triumphs
2 each BMW, Ducati and Kawasaki
1 each Can Am, Moto Guzzi, MV Augusta, SYM and TGB (mopeds)

As always, without actual data as to how many of each type of bike is on the road these figures are rather meaningless, but good to point fingers. Even with the number registered we don’t know how many km each one does, in what conditions etc etc etc. So you've got to be careful when someone says X is worse than Y because Y could be worse than X, it depends what is being pushed and by whom. Hello ACC. Note, no fault is implied in any of this, it is just the bikes involved.

I’m going to assume we can call all the Harleys cruisers here, so based on the model recorded I would say this –

21 cruisers
20 sport
4 off road style
2 proper off road
2 moped
1 Can am

The sports class is actually a bit vague, I have lumped your VTR250, XJ600 and a K1200 in there as well. It is everything that is not lean back cruiser or stand on pegs on gravel stylee.

So yeah, a few interesting things jump out. Nine out of ten crashes were on a dry road. You’d normally expect more wet road crashes than that so it does suggest a bit of fair weather riding. One quarter of the crashes were on a Sunday which is high as well. Alcohol and/or drugs were a factor in nearly half of all of these crashes. And we argue about hi-viz.

I could go on but Coro is about to start.


No KTMs then, must be the high viz orange:innocent:

[nzspokes]

No KTMs then, must be the high viz orange:innocent:

They break down before they get a chance to crash.:bleh:

[KezzaCFC]

well... if you mean older riders on a club pub crawl riding bad performing boat anchors... opps I mean fundraising ride... then yeah

the Pike river ride, just took this off stuff " A motorcyclist died while paying tribute to the men who died in the Pike River explosion" if you call flipping a mates bike cos mate says it wont wheelie, then tearing off and whiten 1k of the pub arse off and kill ya pillion... then fuck tributes

the two down south on a "fundraiser" if i am correct it was the brotherhood, just another MC out on a pub crawl... with a bullshit excuse fundraising in order to look better in the public's eyes...


other wise mate dont blame "middle aged men" dont blame "cruisers" but by all means blame the piss and the fuckwits that drink and drive.

Wasn't blaming anyone, just not surprised at the demograph. I know that 95% are fantastic riders, but the minority ruin it as always.

Like young shitheads in shit box cars killing their mates.

[Berries]

No KTMs then, must be the high viz orange:innocent:
I think most of them are so fucking ugly the Police think they have already been t-boned so have given up reporting them.



No offence.

[buggerit]

I think most of them are so fucking ugly the Police think they have already been t-boned so have given up reporting them.



No offence.

None taken:clap: infact I cant stop grinning, the thing posessed me:lol:

[nzspokes]

I think most of them are so fucking ugly the Police think they have already been t-boned so have given up reporting them.



No offence.

KTM Sunday, ATM Monday.:blink:

[buggerit]

KTM Sunday, ATM Monday.:blink:

Yep, Michelin Mondays:wacko:

[Daffyd]

No apostrophe used in plural of "homo".....

Sorry to prick your bubble but 'homo' is an abbreviation of 'homosexual', therefore the apostrophe replaces the removed letters.

[dangerous]

well... riding home from a rally yesterday and had a close call... with a fucking motorcyclist wearing hi-viz... must a thought they had super powers whit it on or some shit.

came around a right hand sweeper at 100k on my side of the rd to find another bike coming straight at me, they were indicating right to turn onto a side road mid sweeper... fuckwit was cutting the corner instead of sitting near the center line till the side road then turning.. im thinking they were fucking lazy and not wanting to scrub to much speed off to turn... :brick: :facepalm: :ar15: :scooter:

[OddDuck]

well... riding home from a rally yesterday and had a close call... with a fucking motorcyclist wearing hi-viz... must a thought they had super powers whit it on or some shit.

came around a right hand sweeper at 100k on my side of the rd to find another bike coming straight at me, they were indicating right to turn onto a side road mid sweeper... fuckwit was cutting the corner instead of sitting near the center line till the side road then turning.. im thinking they were fucking lazy and not wanting to scrub to much speed off to turn... :brick: :facepalm: :ar15: :scooter:

Well hopefully they've woken up and won't do it again!! Near miss bad but not as bad as it could have been.

[dangerous]

Well hopefully they've woken up and won't do it again!! Near miss bad but not as bad as it could have been.

ohh I bet they will... to many riders are becoming complacent and older riders like me are shockers... habits become bad habits which you end up doing with out relising so one day like this person ya make a move like you have done many a time but forget each time has a different senaro

near miss BUT not as bad... thats a crappy thing to say, near miss should NOT happen

[OddDuck]

ohh I bet they will... to many riders are becoming complacent and older riders like me are shockers... habits become bad habits which you end up doing with out relising so one day like this person ya make a move like you have done many a time but forget each time has a different senaro

near miss BUT not as bad... thats a crappy thing to say, near miss should NOT happen

Yes. I wrote: near miss BAD but not as BAD as could have happened. Used the word twice in the same sentence deliberately. Agree, near miss should not happen in the first place.

[rastuscat]

All this hand wringing about the road deaths.

Considering the behaviour of motorcyclists I see most days, I'm thrilled that the road death stats aren't far worse.

Yesterday I was north on Johns Rod, going through the Harewood Road roundabout. It's a beautifully engineered road, plenty of room in both lanes each way, two lanes on the roundabout. I was in the left lane in fairly routine heavy traffic, 4.45 p.m. commute, approaching the roundabout.

Before the roundabout I saw a bloke on a red SV650 coming up the breakdown shoulder, illegally overtaking the slow moving traffic on the left. It's fairly common, and isn't too much of a problem. I kept an eye on his progress in my left mirror. I was in my car. As I entered the roundabout the idiot was just next to the car behind me, and kept making progress so that as I was in the roundabout, in the left lane going straight through, he was trying to pass me on the left.

But the traffic on my left was creeping, so suddenly he had to brake. Oddly, they didn't expect him to be there.

That sort of risk taking is endemic in our community. And because he does it every day (I'm guessing) he'll just keep doing it.

Celebrate that the numbers aren't far worse.

Harrumph.

[Ocean1]

Celebrate that the numbers aren't far worse.

There's hope for you yet. :laugh:

There's almost 4 million vehicles on NZ roads, if each of them goes for a daily drive and passes just 0.1% of the others on the road without incident then that's 16,000,000,000 potential accidents.

And that's just vehicle vs vehicle accidents, if you include potential accidents involving landscape there's almost limitless opportunities.

Isn't it more rational to appreciate and acknowledge that the chance of an accident has been managed to such a tiny degree for each of those drivers than to simply point at the number of failures, (which continue to diminish in spite of the huge growth in them numbers up there) and claim that the sky is falling?

[george formby]

There's hope for you yet. :laugh:

There's almost 4 million vehicles on NZ roads, if each of them goes for a daily drive and passes just 0.1% of the others on the road without incident then that's 16,000,000,000 potential accidents.

And that's just vehicle vs vehicle accidents, if you include potential accidents involving landscape there's almost limitless opportunities.

Isn't it more rational to appreciate and acknowledge that the chance of an accident has been managed to such a tiny degree for each of those drivers than to simply point at the number of failures, (which continue to diminish in spite of the huge growth in them numbers up there) and claim that the sky is falling?

I pretty much feel this way. Despite the muppetry on daily display the actual toll is startlingly low.

Nevertheless, still plenty of room for improvement.

[Katman]

There's hope for you yet. :laugh:

There's almost 4 million vehicles on NZ roads, if each of them goes for a daily drive and passes just 0.1% of the others on the road without incident then that's 16,000,000,000 potential accidents.

And that's just vehicle vs vehicle accidents, if you include potential accidents involving landscape there's almost limitless opportunities.

Isn't it more rational to appreciate and acknowledge that the chance of an accident has been managed to such a tiny degree for each of those drivers than to simply point at the number of failures, (which continue to diminish in spite of the huge growth in them numbers up there) and claim that the sky is falling?

And if that's all it entailed I wouldn't give a fuck how many people killed themselves through acts of their own stupidity.

But your argument falls to pieces when those acts of stupidity negatively impact on the well-being of innocent people caught up in those acts of stupidity - and when those in power use statistics to impose further restrictions and penalties on those of us who aren't prone to indulging in acts of stupidity.

[russd7]

:Yesterday I was north on Johns Rod. It's beautifully engineered

:killingme sorry, this is KB, someone had to point it out

[rastuscat]

:killingme sorry, this is KB, someone had to point it out

You've met Jon?

[russd7]

You've met Jon?
which one, :Oops:

[Kickaha]

Yesterday I was north on Johns Rod, going through the Harewood Road roundabout. It's a beautifully engineered road, plenty of room in both lanes each way, two lanes on the roundabout.


Those roundabouts are what makes your statement incorrect, they slow traffic down and bottleneck it

[Grumph]

Those roundabouts are what makes your statement incorrect, they slow traffic down and bottleneck it

Agree - and further North, it's a compromised layout due to existing turnoffs. Which should have been bulldozed...

[rastuscat]

Agree - and further North, it's a compromised layout due to existing turnoffs. Which should have been bulldozed...

Cool. No access to the Groynes, or any of the side roads. You guys are awesome at understanding compromise.

[Grumph]

Cool. No access to the Groynes, or any of the side roads. You guys are awesome at understanding compromise.

Well back south around the Crematorium, they've sorted it. Not well IMO, but usable.

Then you look at what's being built around Rolleston...and wonder about access to businesses.

[Kickaha]

Cool. No access to the Groynes, or any of the side roads. You guys are awesome at understanding compromise.

Have you ever heard of overbridges or underpasses? it would be a cost thing

[rastuscat]

Have you ever heard of overbridges or underpasses? it would be a cost thing

That's the thing. Engineering is the most expensive traffic solution. Every project involves the reality that things cost money.

Of course, in the virtual world, flyovers are free.

[Keezz]

Yesterday, 3 June 2019, there was a fatal accident at the Tuakau bridge around 2h23pm.

The rider survived but his passenger did not make it.

I was riding there around 1pm with my son and he had a passenger.


I wish i knew how this accident happened as I have been on and around that bridge many times and the only thing I can think of is that he must have speeding a bit and lost control on the sharp corners around the bridge.

Anyone know what happened?

Sad times for us riders reading of these accidents

I will be doing a silver course as well this coming Sunday in that area. Maybe the instructor might know a bit more Bout the accident

Safe riding :eek5:

[BMWST?]

these things can happen very very quickly.I wonder sometimes how accidents happen at certain places,and then something happens which reminds me how quickly things can change...even a 50 ks in a familiar enviroment

[AllanB]

Three riders died Queens Birthday weekend.

[Taxythingy]

these things can happen very very quickly.I wonder sometimes how accidents happen at certain places,and then something happens which reminds me how quickly things can change...even a 50 ks in a familiar enviroment

Yes to this. Got my reminder last week, hitting some tar bleed on a bend in light rain in the dark. Momentary clench before the tyres picked up again. Fortunately I didn't do anything rash. I ride there at least weekly, and familiarity meant I hadn't taken on board just how bad the seal has become. Cue dark and rain...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/4c/27/cc4c278a690a2ff7f59fa039ff76a431.jpg

[SaferRides]

I had an interesting experience there a few years ago. I was going south, and came off the corner onto the bridge faster than the advisory speed to find a car almost stopped in front of me because a truck was coming the other way.

No drama, but another 20 km/h and it could have been interesting.

[dangerous]

Three riders died Queens Birthday weekend.

yip... and one a bloody good long time mate of mine... and on a bridge same as a dear friend last year... this is three for me in a year all riders about 50...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/113264662/michael-rowe-lived-for-bikes-but-riding-them-cost-him-his-life

a wee press right up on Mikes life.

[Navy Boy]

yip... and one a bloody good long time mate of mine... and on a bridge same as a dear friend last year... this is three for me in a year all riders about 50...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/113264662/michael-rowe-lived-for-bikes-but-riding-them-cost-him-his-life

a wee press right up on Mikes life.

Sorry to hear that fella. It kind of puts things into perspective I reckon. :(

[Temporary-Kiwi]

The fact is ... that members of Kiwibiker are not immune from a motorcycle accident ... and being in one is likely on any ride I'm pretty sure most will know of one member (not necessarily personally) killed in a motorcycle accident. For some ... why they ride is to push the boundary's of danger and exhilaration to their own limits ... and further. Those that ride this way and live to talk of it ... tend to put it all down to THEIR skill / ability ... and not luck. In too many cases it is simply luck they owe their survival to.

We ALL need to start looking at the way WE (ourselves) ride ... and not point the finger at any one (or more) groups / types of riders. Even at the posted speed limit and us riding to the conditions ... some OTHER other road users may not be. Being "In the right" with "Right of way" will not always save you from grief. We ALL need to be more aware of OTHER road users ... even if the risk is low and you feel safe in how you are riding.

Most road accidents are caused by multiple factors ... not usually by just by one. Count the factors that might go against you as you ride ... and ask yourself just how many more is needed to be killed in an accident. The simple scary answer is usually ... just ONE more is needed. So perhaps ... wherever and whenever (and however) we ride ... we just look harder for the factor that might just kill us. The life you save might just be your own.

i actually think this is good advice, i 100% know that when i was younger i survived due to alot of being in the right place while doing something wrong, I did however learn from my mistakes, actually I'm still learning , hope others are also