older riders surviving badly

[dangerous]

... this has been on my mind a bit of late, more so the last week with the 2nd funeral of a friend on Saturday, earlier in the year was a very dear friend at 49yrs old, hers was avery freak acco... last week a van turned in front of a friend... 48yrs...
Now Im 50 and I know I have passed my "best by date" shit im not so agile or fit, Im now blind in one eye the others struggling... I struggle to concentrate like I used to I know all this but cant slow down... why?
Are we older riders loosing it due to age... or are we loosing it due to being to long in the tooth ie to complacent?

I want to hear from the same age and older riders that may not ride much these days... ststs show the older generation are dieing... why???

[Ocean1]

... this has been on my mind a bit of late, more so the last week with the 2nd funeral of a friend on Saturday, earlier in the year was a very dear friend at 49yrs old, hers was avery freak acco... last week a van turned in front of a friend... 48yrs...
Now Im 50 and I know I have passed my "best by date" shit im not so agile or fit, Im now blind in one eye the others struggling... I struggle to concentrate like I used to I know all this but cant slow down... why?
Are we older riders loosing it due to age... or are we loosing it due to being to long in the tooth ie to complacent?

I want to hear from the same age and older riders that may not ride much these days... ststs show the older generation are dieing... why???

Because there's more of them riding.

"The stat's" as presented by most authorities are well bent to show exactly what you're seeing, like selecting the oldest age group at twice the age range of the rest, and then ignoring the fact that that's there's more of that age riding anyway. I don't know why the whole "born again" bashing thing is so popular, but it ain't true. If you reformat the data to make age groups the same size and then show what percentage of each age group are crashing the story that emerges is the same as it's always been: Beginners crash most, then each successive age group crashes less as they gain more experience.

Sorry for your lost mates, dude. There's worse ways to live, and as they say: there's no quantity of life worth saving if it's just to be spent in a nursing home. On the other hand: take it easy out there all you doddery old cunts.

[AllanB]

Work sucks.

The prospect for better work becomes limited.

A good ride makes it better for a short period of time. I never think of work cranked over mid corner. I do occasionally think 'shit that car in front is coming up fast ......'

[nzspokes]

For the most part I would say attitude. The roads not a race track and yes it's a decaying skill.


Im 50 and take in all the training I can.

[dangerous]

yeah I get the majority thing as in 45-55 the commonest age for a rider, fuck we come from that area... but we are very experienced, myself mega mileage under my belt on the road on the track even an acredited MNZ coach... but I dont have it anymore is this common with getting to this age group? are we to blazay I bloody well hope not


For the most part I would say attitude. The roads not a race track and yes it's a decaying skill.


Im 50 and take in all the training I can.
at 50 I doubt to many treat the road as a race track... or do we, like it was us that drank and drove in the day... and yes every time ya ride ya learn, think ya know it all and its all over...

[russd7]

its hard yakka getting older and as allanb suggested it gets harder to get new employment options even tho I know I can give a better return to most employers than younger counterparts, but that's another story.
as for riding, I knew I had become complacent and knew I was getting lazy and had allowed bad habits to creep in so I went and did a senior rideforever course, I came away completely despondent but started working on all the things I knew I needed to and riding became a whole lot more enjoyable. I may have slowed down slightly but not as much as thought I would have.

I have since done the gold course as a refresher and will do another next year. oh I also lost a lot of weight and am getting fitter and I think that helps as well

[AllanB]

at 50 I doubt to many treat the road as a race track... or do we

Mate you ride the CHCH - Akaroa route frequently. You telling me you stick to the limit and suggested corner speeds?

And check out some of the 'road' rubber on bikes after a spin on the hill - that balled up rubber is not from a scenic ride.

[skippa1]

No amount of youth, fitness, agility or reflex is going to save you from some dickhead that suddenly turns in front of you 50m away. You have less than 2 seconds at 100kmh, if you consider they are carrying minimal speed. Barely time to survey the situation before impact.

More cars on the road, more bikes on the road, more distractions......it happens in the blink of an eye

Trust me

I know

Best to be a cunt....only the good die young

[nzspokes]

at 50 I doubt to many treat the road as a race track...

Age seems irrelevant with those that must win the get to the pub first GP.

[AllanB]

Age seems irrelevant with those that must win the get to the pub first GP.


Booze and bikes don't mix well in my opinion. I stick to the fanta.

[dangerous]

Mate you ride the CHCH - Akaroa route frequently. You telling me you stick to the limit and suggested corner speeds?

And check out some of the 'road' rubber on bikes after a spin on the hill - that balled up rubber is not from a scenic ride.

no al... I rearly ride that road, once twice a year maybe... not enjoyable, traffic and all plus to get there its a 45k straight line ride LOL... unlike our mate GC.
That said tho, yes it is a road for hooning with out traffic its awesome, easy to push ones luck.



No amount of youth, fitness, agility or reflex is going to save you from some dickhead that suddenly turns in front of you 50m away. You have less than 2 seconds at 100kmh, if you consider they are carrying minimal speed. Barely time to survey the situation before impact.

More cars on the road, more bikes on the road, more distractions......it happens in the blink of an eye

Trust me

I know

Best to be a cunt....only the good die young

Im hearing ya BUT... as a rider you should be tuned into that car 50M away and be expecting it to turn so all the above should help, ofcourse if the dickhead is 50M round a blind corner then yeah down to luck maybe...
cunt/die young is bit of a contradiction... because ya cant be both good and a cunt... unless ya me and im a good cunt.

[seattle smitty]

Motorcycle riding certainly puts a premium on situational awareness, and even then, as Skippa asserts, there are situations you can hardly spot and dodge in time, if at all.

I did once manage, on a little Yamaha DT125 in heavy afternoon go-home traffic, to dodge an inflated tire/wheel rolling and bounding towards us at 80kph in the concoming lanes (came loose from a car, I assume). It took a hard bounce off somebody's bumper and went very high in the air, shimmying wildly, and diagonally crossing over three lanes in the general direction of . . . me. As I tried to calculate it's downward arc and trajectory, I was braking enough to, I hoped, both avoid the tire and the traffic behind me. The car in the lane next to mine continued at speed, having not spotted the tire at all, and it hit him in the passenger-side of the windshield (would have killed the passenger had he been carrying one). To his credit he slowed in a controlled manner as I went past. No way I was going to stop and check things out with that mob of cars behind me, so I just kept going. It all happened so fast, I had no time for fear, and was perfectly calm as I motored away, maybe partly because I could see that the tire never had my name on it anyway.

I just wanted to tell my little anecdote, which has little to do with the question I wanted to ask. Did you fellas ever hear of a study that became known here as the Hurt Report? Harry Hurt, a professor at San Diego State U. (IIRC) in the Seventies, did a good study on motorcycle accidents. One of the first things he noticed, in interviewing numbers of participants in the 800-some accidents he studied, was that in a great many of them, the biker reported, "The guy/gal in the car LOOKED RIGHT AT ME before he/she pulled out right in front of me!!" Yet the offending driver of the car nearly always said, "I never saw the guy coming!!" Wondering at this, Hurt started digging further. He found that overwhelmngly the car drivers had never owned a motorcycle, nor had anyone in their families, and the upshot was evidently that their brains were not prepped very well to have a consciousness of motorcycles.

I should say that this was in an era when most bikes did not have the automatic headlight-on-when-running feature that helped make them stand out. Of course, since then the flaming idiots in government have got all newer cars set up for full-time lights-on, so that motorcyclists have not only lost their protection, but all drivers are slightly blinded from all the damned lights, especially us old guys and especially at night.

Anyway, the Hurt Report. The prof went on to say that certain groups were hugely OVER-represented in motorcycle accidents, especially fatal ones. First were the drinkers. Just being completely sober while riding makes the stats look a whole lot better for you. The second group was the squids (squirrelly kids); the young, fearless, unimaginative new riders who jump on their sportbikes wearing shorts and sandals and go wheely-ing out of the lot, and soon into a tree or something. Hurt found that a lot of the guys in this group were not well-read motorcycle lovers, and really didn't know much about bikes. The third over-represented group was the low-visibility riders, in black leather and such, with black helmets. Wearers of high-vis clothing and helmets did not figure much in Hurt's stats. Whether this was due to the bright garb, or to the fact that guys who choose to wear this stuff are undoubtedly tuned in to any other means of self-preservation while riding, well, who could say.

The overall point of the Hurt Report was that statistically motorcycling is certainly dangerous . . . BUT, that for the smarter riders who do not fall into any of the three accident-prone categories, motorcycling is statistically nowhere nearly as dangerous an activity.


Or maybe you all know of that study (largely common sense anyway), and I should have done something other than this post, LOL.

[sidecar bob]

Knowing what you are good for & monitoring your downward spiral is important.
Apart from not getting a buzz out of it anymore, my days passengering a top level F1 sidecar are over.
My mental agility is not razor sharp, so time to let it go before me or somebody I'm supposed to be looking after get hurt.
I also find that taking advice from young & competent motorcyclists re tyres, helmets & pretty much anything I don't fully understand the current technology of, including how to download music is invaluable.

[SaferRides]

I'll bet only one or two people at the MoT and no one in our government has heard of the Hurt report, let alone even read it.

You also have to realise that the key decision makers have vested interests in what is done to reduce the road toll. The police will say speed, then they want more staff. NZTA will say the roads are crap so they can build shiny, new ones - well, hopefully not shiny. Probably the only people who's primary interest is reducing accidents is ACC and it seems their main strategy is rider training. Interesting.

[Big Dog]

Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property.

From:www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_Report

I have always wondered, is that a link to general lack of preparation, or more an attitude of "I'm special and don't play by the rules"?

I also find it interesting to read through these findings and compare which risk groups apply to me now vs the first time I read the report 16 years ago.

[merv]

An additional thought. You mentioned your eyes.

One of the most important things are your eyes, and most people start getting presbyopia late 40's early 50's. This is where you start losing the focal range of your eyes and typically you can correct it with multi-focal contact lenses or progressive glasses.

I always wonder about those in denial that struggle on thinking they can still see like they used to, but you see them either holding things a long way from their eyes trying to read them, or sort of squinting into the distance wondering what it is you are seeing. Some ride motorcycles and run into things or run off the road.

I know it is a pain but I started wearing progressive glasses when I was 49, so from then put up with the hassle dealing with taking glasses on and off in sync with getting my helmet on and off and having to balance stuff on the bike seat which on a windy day is really annoying. While the glasses are good they still don't in any way match the joy of having good eyes when I was younger - peripheral vision particulalry.

All of this results in a slight degradation of the ability to ride a motorcycle razor sharp so you do need to take it a bit easier and really look out for things. One bugger of growing old.

[tigertim20]

Old riders rely on skill and experience built up over many years or decades of riding, and this experience provides a rose tinted view of their riding ability.

As we age, we ignore the growing gap between our experience-earned skills, and our bodies degrading ability to put those skills into action because your eyes get worse, brain gets foggy, and your body does not move as fast or bounce as well as it used to.

Basicly we know HOW to do things but lack the physical ability to actually do it.

And we dont realise until we are actually required to use those skills that we are unable to use them as well or as fast as we thought we could.

[Banditbandit]

I dunno - I think it is the luck of the genetic draw ..

My body is past 60 - but my mind is still the 18-year-old hoon with a throttle .. the only difference is that my old 650 Trumpy would top out at 110mph - my 650 Bandit has been to 217kph on the clock (Suzuki speedos are notoriously inaccurate - don't take that as an accurate speed.) while I regularly take to 1250 passed 200 ...

A couple of weeks ago I came across a group of slow riders (doing under 100kph) wearing hi-Viz vests - I went round the outside on a wide open left-hander about 140klicks - found out later it was a Ride Forever course ... (:rofl:) .. bet the trainer had a bit to say to his pupils about the hoon on the Bandit ..

I still have excellent eye sight (wear reading glasses but can't see passed my hands with them on) and good reactions .. still pretty fit ..

I guess I'm just lucky ..

[Ocean1]

I have always wondered, is that a link to general lack of preparation, or more an attitude of "I'm special and don't play by the rules"?

I also find it interesting to read through these findings and compare which risk groups apply to me now vs the first time I read the report 16 years ago.

There's a somewhat famous psych development experiment where several kids of about 4 years old are sat alone at a table, given a plate with a single marshmallow and told: "You can eat that whenever you like, but if it's still there in 5 minutes you get a second one". From memory about 40% get the second one.

But the interesting bit is the correlation between the kids that waited and the number that were successful later life was close to complete parity. It's used to demonstrate that at least that variable: the ability to defer gratification in exchange for higher rewards, is likely almost completely genetically conferred, nature, not nurture.

The point. I'd be surprised if similar statistical correlations couldn't be drawn between that two marshmallow bunch and success wrt personal survival behavior also. So why are the single marshmallow dude's still around? Born to be wild genes are probably genetically useful to society overall, as warriors to start with, so Darwin's happy. But if there's one thing less useful than a timid warrior it's an old one.

[pritch]

But if there's one thing less useful than a timid warrior it's an old one.

He who runs away today lives to run another day?

Re-reading those findings was probably timely as the riding season gets into gear. Looking at the list there's a lot of encouragement there if you just wear the correct gear, don't ride pissed, have a warrant of fitness and a clean licence.

The location and timing of the accidents suggests we should perhaps have a little "zen" moment before we leave the driveway. Stop, clear the head of whatever else is happening in your life, then ride. There is the added benefit that you'd have checked your brakes were working.

[Berries]

Old riders rely on skill and experience built up over many years or decades of riding, and this experience provides a rose tinted view of their riding ability.

As we age, we ignore the growing gap between our experience-earned skills, and our bodies degrading ability to put those skills into action because your eyes get worse, brain gets foggy, and your body does not move as fast or bounce as well as it used to.
I turned 50 this year, have been riding all my life and have always shunned the idea of further training because I believe I know how to ride safely and defensively, even if there are occasions when I ignore all that and go banzai.

Whenever anyone bangs on about the value of training I turn off, but I had not thought of it the way you just put it.

Anyway, time for home. If you see a black GSXR on it's side in a puddle stop and help me.

[Blackbird]

I turned 50 this year, have been riding all my life and have always shunned the idea of further training because I believe I know how to ride safely and defensively, even if there are occasions when I ignore all that and go banzai.

Whenever anyone bangs on about the value of training I turn off, but I had not thought of it the way you just put it.

I've just turned 71 and started serious training in my 60's because it took me that long to realise that I ran out of talent way before I thought I did. I simply wanted to extend my riding riding career for as long as I could as safely as possible. Got rid of some bad habits, learned heaps of good stuff and enjoy my riding more than ever. Just did it for myself but have managed to help a few people along the way too. Can't be a bad result, can it?

[tigertim20]

I turned 50 this year, have been riding all my life and have always shunned the idea of further training because I believe I know how to ride safely and defensively, even if there are occasions when I ignore all that and go banzai.

Whenever anyone bangs on about the value of training I turn off, but I had not thought of it the way you just put it.

Anyway, time for home. If you see a black GSXR on it's side in a puddle stop and help me.
yep, nothing wrong with the skills learned from many years, just realising that it gets harder to implement them as you get older. You learn that real fast in a kickboxing mma gym at sparring time!

and shit, you're keen in this downpour!


I

I still have excellent eye sight (wear reading glasses but can't see passed my hands with them on) and good reactions .. still pretty fit ..

I guess I'm just lucky ..
60 year old YOU might be fitter, faster, stronger, better eyes and faster reactions that 30 year old somebody else. BUT

60 year old YOU will always be slower, less strong, worse eyesight etc that 30 year old YOU. - thats the issue, we spend say 30 years learning riding skills, but by the time we have earned and learned those skills, we can no longer use them as effectively as well could have back when we were physically more capable, but had not yet learned said skills. . .

[AllanB]

At 53 my distance vision is superb (a recent test impressed the optician) - up close I need glasses to read a book.

My Ducati is designed so that I need to do a decent lift and a spin to get my leg over the seat - I'm thinking of stuffing a pair of socks down my undies and trying out for the ballet.

I'm not finding any issues with reaction time or the likes while on the road. Indeed I am thoroughly enjoying the motorcycle experience.


To DD - maybe it's time for a change from the Guzzi - try a lighter, different ride? MT09 springs to mind (bit fuggly looking though). Sometimes a change is a good thing.

[dangerous]

the biker reported, "The guy/gal in the car LOOKED RIGHT AT ME before he/she pulled out right in front of me!!" Yet the offending driver of the car nearly always said, "I never saw the guy coming!!" Wondering at this, Hurt started digging further. He found that overwhelmngly the car drivers had never owned a motorcycle, nor had anyone in their families, and the upshot was evidently that their brains were not prepped very well to have a consciousness of motorcycles.

Id like to add... the guy/girl in the car DOES see the bike but as it is smaller than them the brain does NOT register it as a threat, opposite if it was a Mack truck... its a mental thing...

anyway I was more asking if we loose the ability to ride well due to age, physically and or mentally and do we reconise this and keep riding how we always have instead of slowing down???


To DD - maybe it's time for a change from the Guzzi - try a lighter, different ride? MT09 springs to mind (bit fuggly looking though). Sometimes a change is a good thing.

only for another Guzzi :facepalm:

[Ulsterkiwi]

I never heard that SQUID meant squirrely kid. I thought it was something along the lines of Stupidly Quick, Underdressed, Imminently Dead.

My wife didn't learn to ride until her late 50s. She played soccer, was a swimmer and had a brown belt in karate (was going for black, dislocated a hip and was told to quit while ahead) Point is she was reasonably active in her youth and did things that needed reactions and flexibility. Learning to ride was a huge challenge for her. Why? Things just slow down when you get older. There is a difference to learning something when younger and keeping it going as compared to doing it while younger, having a break for the usual reasons (money/work/family) and then coming back to it. You are never quite the same on the return. I played rep rugby as a teen and early 20s. I know there are seniors/master teams but 15 minutes of contact footie and I would be fucked, probably have a stroke, coronary, screw up a joint, tear muscles and basically become a jibbering mess all at the same time.
Riders who keep going, keep their skills alive and ticking over will be better for it. Riders who don't and then get older, well....
I would also argue those who put the bikes in the shed for the winter and roll them out again come the warmer (?) weather, are effectively returning riders every spring/summer. They have gotten older and none of their skills have been maintained for months. Look at how rusty professional athletes are when they first come back from the off season and those guys never really stop working.
Bottom line, what is the problem with maybe slowing down a bit and giving your reactions more of a chance. Get some training, how bad can a day on the bike be? R4E courses are $50 at worst, a couple of fills of fuel? pffffft! Cheap as chips! IAM offers mentoring completely free of charge (you do need to pay membership subs of course) There are options there to keep the brain engaged and in a way you can pace yourself and still get some fun out of riding
I can't argue with Skippa, shit happens we have no control over, there is other stuff we can control, so why not?




A couple of weeks ago I came across a group of slow riders (doing under 100kph) wearing hi-Viz vests - I went round the outside on a wide open left-hander about 140klicks - found out later it was a Ride Forever course ... (:rofl:) .. bet the trainer had a bit to say to his pupils about the hoon on the Bandit ..

I still have excellent eye sight (wear reading glasses but can't see passed my hands with them on) and good reactions .. still pretty fit ..

I guess I'm just lucky ..

I am not for one second questioning your skills or abilities or the ability of your machine. I do have a genuine question though: before executing that passing manoeuvre, did you at any point consider the impact on those slow riders of a vehicle passing them on a corner (no matter how open) at that kind of speed? Chances are they did not see you before you passed, even if they did they almost certainly would not have expected you to do that. Have you ever been caught out by another road users actions? Did it ever rattle you? How did you feel about it afterwards?
Not interested in a row with you. Genuinely interested in your thinking.

On another thought, again out of genuine curiosity. How are you gauging your reaction times? Dave Moss the suspension tuner says something interesting. He talks about the incredible ability of humans to adapt to sub-optimal circumstances and begin to treat that as normal. Of course his particular context is accepting sub-optimal suspension performance from our bikes and as a consequence not getting the most from them and therefore not having them under control as well we might and therefore not being as safe as we might. I hope you can see the parallels we can draw to other aspects of how we might evaluate performance? Sometimes I find the most objective way to baseline where I am at is to seek outside input and measurement or critique. Why? Well my perception of what is acceptable might simply be an adaptation to something which is sub-optimal from the beginning. Maybe its just me :weird:

[Ocean1]

He who runs away today lives to run another day?

Didn't you get the memo about stoicism under fire? :laugh:

Don't think there's ever been an organised armed force that didn't at least shoot your arse out of hand for running. Not that long ago most of 'em would have taken the opportunity for a little ritualised, post-battle parade ground educational torture first.

Point is everyone's wired different, some of us aren't designed to live forever and behave accordingly. Pointless trying to redesign them, pointless legislating in favour of different behavior, pointless even worrying too much about it: ain't going to change.

[FJRider]

its hard yakka getting older and as allanb suggested it gets harder to get new employment options even tho I know I can give a better return to most employers than younger counterparts, but that's another story.


I started a totally new job two months before my 60th birthday, from irrigation and pipe laying to cleaning the nets on a Salmon farm. I work 7 day shifts ... 7 on and 7 off (both paid) My employer is well aware of my age, and prefers the work ethics of older people than those younger. After almost two years doing it ... he's happy with my work and I'm happy with my job.

I ride all year round (on the fine days off). I dont do the miles I used to, as I dont have/feel the need or inclination to. 84,000 km's on the FJ now. 64,000 by me.

[dangerous]

The location and timing of the accidents suggests we should perhaps have a little "zen" moment before we leave the driveway. Stop, clear the head of whatever else is happening in your life, then ride.
Hell yes... see I was waiting for someone to mention that possability... I think ya right , I think I do need to "zen" yet ya'd think at my age shit would be easy... but it aint work, kids... bloody women... stress is the killer not speed LOL




but my mind is still the 18-year-old hoon with a throttle LMAO... soooo me HA



Old riders rely on skill and experience built up over many years or decades of riding, and this experience provides a rose tinted view of their riding ability.
BULL SHIT...



An additional thought. You mentioned your eyes.

ohhh yes to the beter eye... the other I had a stroke behind 3 years back left it one big blur, its easier to see if I close it



Basicly we know HOW to do things but lack the physical ability to actually do it.

And we dont realise until we are actually required to use those skills that we are unable to use them as well or as fast as we thought we could.
yeah.. now that Id agree with

[dangerous]

My wife didn't learn to ride until her late 50s. She played soccer, was a swimmer and had a brown belt in karate (was going for black, dislocated a hip and was told to quit while ahead) Point is she was reasonably active in her youth and did things that needed reactions and flexibility. Learning to ride was a huge challenge for her. Why? Things just slow down when you get older. There is a difference to learning something when younger and keeping it going as compared to doing it while younger, having a break for the usual reasons (money/work/family) and then coming back to it. You are never quite the same on the return.

Riders who keep going, keep their skills alive and ticking over will be better for it. Riders who don't and then get older, well....
I would also argue those who put the bikes in the shed for the winter and roll them out again come the warmer (?) weather, are effectively returning riders every spring/summer. They have gotten older and none of their skills have been maintained for months. Look at how rusty professional athletes are when they first come back from the off season and those guys never really stop working.

There are options there to keep the brain engaged and in a way you can pace yourself and still get some fun out of riding
I can't argue with Skippa, shit happens we have no control over, there is other stuff we can control, so why not?

shit thats a good explernation and decent advice...
I stop over winter... BUT I used to race during the winter months, so I never gave it a thought that when I stoped I was loosing those tuned skills


I turned 50 this year, have been riding all my life and have always shunned the idea of further training because I believe I know how to ride safely and defensively, even if there are occasions when I ignore all that and go banzai.

Whenever anyone bangs on about the value of training I turn off, but I had not thought of it the way you just put it.

I have and will never "turn off" re the value of training, but yes to a degree I shun as well... but, only cos I try my best to not get lazy, not learn bad habits... I take pride in my riding skills and others have learnt from me and now well out ride me... others that have done advanced courses have highly recommended them to, but just not for me, tho I will always listen to advice.

[Murray]

I dunno - I think it is the luck of the genetic draw ..

while I regularly take to 1250 passed 200 ...

A couple of weeks ago I came across a group of slow riders (doing under 100kph) wearing hi-Viz vests - I went round the outside on a wide open left-hander about 140klicks - found out later it was a Ride Forever course ... (:rofl:) .. bet the trainer had a bit to say to his pupils about the hoon on the Bandit ..



Your lucky and a dick - 140 clicks passing. What a cool dude!!!

[caspernz]

I turned 50 this year, have been riding all my life and have always shunned the idea of further training because I believe I know how to ride safely and defensively, even if there are occasions when I ignore all that and go banzai.

Whenever anyone bangs on about the value of training I turn off, but I had not thought of it the way you just put it.

Anyway, time for home. If you see a black GSXR on it's side in a puddle stop and help me.

Interesting attitude. So when a sniper expends 1.2 rounds per enemy kill and a GI something like 11,500 me thinks training has some input on the result. Any training delivers a better result, but only if one is open to it I suppose...



I've just turned 71 and started serious training in my 60's because it took me that long to realise that I ran out of talent way before I thought I did. I simply wanted to extend my riding riding career for as long as I could as safely as possible. Got rid of some bad habits, learned heaps of good stuff and enjoy my riding more than ever. Just did it for myself but have managed to help a few people along the way too. Can't be a bad result, can it?

Yep, we don't know what we don't know. Will readily admit I thought I couldn't improve much (like that Berries chap above) but then I asked myself what if? What if I can improve? Turns out I learned more than I might wish to admit :eek::confused::devil2:

[Blackbird]

Yep, we don't know what we don't know. Will readily admit I thought I couldn't improve much (like that Berries chap above) but then I asked myself what if? What if I can improve? Turns out I learned more than I might wish to admit :eek::confused::devil2:

I think most of us have found exactly that Rob. Hasn't been too damaging to one's ego either 😊

[Berries]

Interesting attitude. So when a sniper expends 1.2 rounds per enemy kill and a GI something like 11,500 me thinks training has some input on the result. Any training delivers a better result, but only if one is open to it I suppose...
They have completely different jobs and shoot their guns for totally different purposes. I imagine they both train just as much as each other but on different aspects. Not the best comparison.

My problem is that I know what I should be doing to give me that extra margin of safety but some of the time I just don't bother because, well, that's why I ride.

[Berries]

pressed the wrong button

[seattle smitty]

Maybe not, Berries, yet not that bad either (referring to your previous post). A good friend was a career sergeant in the Army, including leading squads in Korea and Vietnam, and a lot more time Stateside training the new meat. He once said that, instead of the semi-auto M-1s used in Korea, and the fully-automatic M-16s used in Vietnam, he wished his troopies had been issued old bolt-action rifles, his idea being that the boys could be encouraged to make more careful shots, and wouldn't have to carry, and waste, so much ammo. Yeah, the comparison is a stretch, but maybe having spent early years riding old spaghetti-framed bikes is a useful background even for riding modern sportbikes that handle so much better. I toss that in for what it's worth, Berries (i.e., not much, oh well).

[Ocean1]

Maybe not, Berries, yet not that bad either (referring to your previous post). A good friend was a career sergeant in the Army, including leading squads in Korea and Vietnam, and a lot more time Stateside training the new meat. He once said that, instead of the semi-auto M-1s used in Korea, and the fully-automatic M-16s used in Vietnam, he wished his troopies had been issued old bolt-action rifles, his idea being that the boys could be encouraged to make more careful shots, and wouldn't have to carry, and waste, so much ammo. Yeah, the comparison is a stretch, but maybe having spent early years riding old spaghetti-framed bikes is a useful background even for riding modern sportbikes that handle so much better. I toss that in for what it's worth, Berries (i.e., not much, oh well).

I've read several historical references to automatics having been invented mostly as an alternative to training.

[pritch]

Some of us are aware of the problems of riding in our dotage and a year or three ago there was a sensible thread about it. As mentioned elsewhere I recently received an invitation to renew my licence. That requires an eye test and probably a note from the Doc to confirm I still have most of my marbles.

I still mostly cruise around at the same illegal speed I have since the 70s. The odd excursions to warp speed are less frequent these days though.

I’ve been banging on about a smaller bike for ages but since I’ve got an expensive service coming up that’ll likely be put off yet again.

One does not forget one is aging, the arthritis is a constant reminder. :whistle:

[Banditbandit]

60 year old YOU might be fitter, faster, stronger, better eyes and faster reactions that 30 year old somebody else. BUT

60 year old YOU will always be slower, less strong, worse eyesight etc that 30 year old YOU. - thats the issue, we spend say 30 years learning riding skills, but by the time we have earned and learned those skills, we can no longer use them as effectively as well could have back when we were physically more capable, but had not yet learned said skills. . .

Really - I have no idea - I bought both my Bandits past 50 years old .. and they are the fastest things I have ever owned.

I think my riding is way better than it was when I was 30 ... the bikes handle better - I've got more control of them ... No, I am not as strong and fit - I don't need to be on these bikes - counter-steering and balancing on the throttle doesn't need strength.

I can still ride from Whakatane to Wellington stopping only for cigs and gas ...

I ride year round - I don't park the bikes in winter ..

I think I'm just a lucky hoon ..






I am not for one second questioning your skills or abilities or the ability of your machine. I do have a genuine question though: before executing that passing manoeuvre, did you at any point consider the impact on those slow riders of a vehicle passing them on a corner (no matter how open) at that kind of speed? Chances are they did not see you before you passed, even if they did they almost certainly would not have expected you to do that. Have you ever been caught out by another road users actions? Did it ever rattle you? How did you feel about it afterwards?
Not interested in a row with you. Genuinely interested in your thinking.

Yeah - I did consider that - as I dropped in behind the last bike in the snake it looked like a young woman on a harley 500 .. she freaked and wobbled - did not seem happy for me to be behind her ... So then I wasn't ..


Yeah - chances are they did not see me before I passed them ... (the last one certainly did .. ) Yes - I've have bikes pass that I didn't even see coming ... as long as they don't hit me all good .. the only ones who rattle me are way too close .. others .. (Well, I tend to open the throttle and chase them .. but never too hard - I won't push anyone who doesn't look confident - and I won't chase competent riders on real sports bikes - I know what I can and can't do .. if they are really moving I let them go - but it's funny to watch guys on high speed sports bike who can't lose a 650 bandit ...) .. I was really wide on the corner - almost on the right side white line ..

In the end - such things happen on the road - and they need to get used to traffic .. If they had been at 100klicks I would not have done it .. they was only doing 80ks ... (I had a thought there - but it's gone ... ) ... Oh yeah - they didn't see me coming - and I was GONE before they could react ..





On another thought, again out of genuine curiosity. How are you gauging your reaction times? Dave Moss the suspension tuner says something interesting. He talks about the incredible ability of humans to adapt to sub-optimal circumstances and begin to treat that as normal. Of course his particular context is accepting sub-optimal suspension performance from our bikes and as a consequence not getting the most from them and therefore not having them under control as well we might and therefore not being as safe as we might. I hope you can see the parallels we can draw to other aspects of how we might evaluate performance? Sometimes I find the most objective way to baseline where I am at is to seek outside input and measurement or critique. Why? Well my perception of what is acceptable might simply be an adaptation to something which is sub-optimal from the beginning. Maybe its just me :weird:

I really watch the road - no letting the attention wander off .. unless I'm cruising .. I watch cars, their body language, driver's heads - anything looks even slightly suspect I back off ...

So often I'm reacting BEFORE anything actually happens ...

I suppose you'd call that experience ..

[Blackbird]

Some of us are aware of the problems of riding in our dotage and a year or three ago there was a sensible thread about it. As mentioned elsewhere I recently received an invitation to renew my licence. That requires an eye test and probably a note from the Doc to confirm I still have most of my marbles.

I still mostly cruise around at the same illegal speed I have since the 70s. The odd excursions to warp speed are less frequent these days though.

I’ve been banging on about a smaller bike for ages but since I’ve got an expensive service coming up that’ll likely be put off yet again.

One does not forget one is aging, the arthritis is a constant reminder. :whistle:

Hahahaha - ditto for all you've said Ron :laugh: My licence comes up for renewal in 2022.

Next year sometime, I'm looking at a smaller bike too, specifically much lighter and perhaps a tad lower. Going back to a Street Triple has strong appeal but coming from left field, the KTM Duke 790 seems to tick most technical boxes and has a certain emotional appeal too! I have a bit of arthritis in the knees and fitted pegs which were 20mm lower on both the Blackbird and current bike. Made a massive difference and quite happy to do the same to any future bike which has high pegs. :niceone:

[Banditbandit]

Hahahaha - ditto for all you've said Ron :laugh: My licence comes up for renewal in 2022.

Next year sometime, I'm looking at a smaller bike too, specifically much lighter and perhaps a tad lower. Going back to a Street Triple has strong appeal but coming from left field, the KTM Duke 790 seems to tick most technical boxes and has a certain emotional appeal too! I have a bit of arthritis in the knees and fitted pegs which were 20mm lower on both the Blackbird and current bike. Made a massive difference and quite happy to do the same to any future bike which has high pegs. :niceone:

Everyone I know who has had a Street Triple has dumped it ... even ex-racers ..

I think there's something wrong there ..

[Banditbandit]

Hahahaha - ditto for all you've said Ron :laugh: My licence comes up for renewal in 2022.

Next year sometime, I'm looking at a smaller bike too, specifically much lighter and perhaps a tad lower. Going back to a Street Triple has strong appeal but coming from left field, the KTM Duke 790 seems to tick most technical boxes and has a certain emotional appeal too! I have a bit of arthritis in the knees and fitted pegs which were 20mm lower on both the Blackbird and current bike. Made a massive difference and quite happy to do the same to any future bike which has high pegs. :niceone:

Just ran across this - Could not resist ..

https://scontent.fhlz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46518862_10156844423937812_7017107500801458176_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_eui2=AeF71d80hjasVaIrlnkbtYTkUXOGGgB_z12K2n5eX Om9e5v26-2d0XElq82JqcLenpyqevceOZPhXPKdST23rxXdDOEq5k2rXtDL 7oyrufR7sQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fhlz2-1.fna&oh=f40119ee4a24e6faa773e03442297905&oe=5C81FC76

[Blackbird]

Everyone I know who has had a Street Triple has dumped it ... even ex-racers ..

I think there's something wrong there ..

Had a Street Triple from 2009 - 2015 and absolutely loved it, that's why I'm hooked on them. The only drop was entirely my fault, The early ones had a fairly restricted lock and flicking it round on a narrow country road, it was very late in the piece and leaned right over that I needed another few centimetres of road to complete the turn :eek5: . Had to step off it. Cracked an indicator lens and damaged my ego. The only thing about Street Triples is that they cause immoderate behaviour without a certain degree of self-control. That's part of the problem :yes:

Hahahaha re your second post :clap:

[Banditbandit]

Had a Street Triple from 2009 - 2015 and absolutely loved it, that's why I'm hooked on them. The only drop was entirely my fault, The early ones had a fairly restricted lock and flicking it round on a narrow country road, it was very late in the piece and leaned right over that I needed another few centimetres of road to complete the turn :eek5: . Had to step off it. Cracked an indicator lens and damaged my ego. The only thing about Street Triples is that they cause immoderate behaviour without a certain degree of self-control. That's part of the problem :yes:

Hahahaha re your second post :clap:

Yeah - I figured it was probably the rider ... immoderate behaviour ..

[Berries]

I’ve been banging on about a smaller bike for ages but since I’ve got an expensive service coming up that’ll likely be put off yet again.
Told the wife I had to downsize so went from an SV1000 to a GSXR750 a couple of years back. Engine capacity went down, power, speed, handling, grin factor and general hooliganism went up. She's happy I am on a smaller bike, I am happy because she doesn't know the rest.

Not sure how I am going to justify going back up in capacity to her next time. Might just have to get some 500cc stickers made to cover up the numbers.

[RDJ]

Maybe not, Berries, yet not that bad either (referring to your previous post). A good friend was a career sergeant in the Army, including leading squads in Korea and Vietnam, and a lot more time Stateside training the new meat. He once said that, instead of the semi-auto M-1s used in Korea, and the fully-automatic M-16s used in Vietnam, he wished his troopies had been issued old bolt-action rifles, his idea being that the boys could be encouraged to make more careful shots, and wouldn't have to carry, and waste, so much ammo. Yeah, the comparison is a stretch, but maybe having spent early years riding old spaghetti-framed bikes is a useful background even for riding modern sportbikes that handle so much better. I toss that in for what it's worth, Berries (i.e., not much, oh well).

...and remembering how the brakes were drum-rubbish and the headlights were Lucas-P.O.D-crap... it was very clear even to us adolescents it would hurt muchly to go faster than you could see and brake. In the absence of dedicated safety gear (Army surplus boots, and Line 7 parkas were about the 'best' affordable) there was a very direct link between foolishness and pain.

Also in the Mists of Antique Time, many drivers would have had - through lack of Overseas Funds to buy cars - have come up through the cheap-bike ranks themselves, so they looked out for bikes. These days, we are a small minority riding in the lines and queues of people who never rode, never will, and are impatient and self-obsessed.

Without ACC protecting them from expensive consequences, people on the roads don't worry overmuch about what could go wrong. Until it does.

Gad! Having just read what I wrote, maybe I better sell the bikes and check in now to the Evening Twilight Rest Home.

[RDJ]

Anyway, the Hurt Report. The third over-represented group was the low-visibility riders, in black leather and such, with black helmets. Wearers of high-vis clothing and helmets did not figure much in Hurt's stats. Whether this was due to the bright garb, or to the fact that guys who choose to wear this stuff are undoubtedly tuned in to any other means of self-preservation while riding, well, who could say.

An interesting discussion on this topic on Visordown couple of years back. In brief; paradoxically, Hi-Vis wearers may be more likely to be seen as easily bullied by drivers; black-on-black riders may be more likely regarded as thugs so do not mess with them & steer clear (literally and figuratively).

Only way to be sure is probably to dress in contrasting gear on alternating days for a month and then view a helmetcam movie taken at same times of the day on the same route...

Hey, Shane Jones! Fund this you corruptocrat!

[SaferRides]

An interesting discussion on this topic on Visordown couple of years back. In brief; paradoxically, Hi-Vis wearers may be more likely to be seen as easily bullied by drivers; black-on-black riders may be more likely regarded as thugs so do not mess with them & steer clear (literally and figuratively).

Only way to be sure is probably to dress in contrasting gear on alternating days for a month and then view a helmetcam movie taken at same times of the day on the same route...

Hey, Shane Jones! Fund this you corruptocrat!Not all Hi Vis is equal either. I recently replaced my free, SaferRides Hi Vis because the zip would come undone sometimes when riding at 104 km/h. I bought a Revit vest, which meets ECE whatever and seems a couple of shades brighter than the old one.

In the few months I've been using it, I can't recall a single incident where someone has failed to see me, even on the motorway.

The instructor on the Ride Forever course did mention that wearing a white helmet was the one thing you could do that would most increase your chances of being seen.

[RDJ]

The instructor on the Ride Forever course did mention that wearing a white helmet was the one thing you could do that would most increase your chances of being seen.

Interesting. Any evidence of this? if true - why do we have orange and blue for attention-getting lights for motor vehicle indicators and NZ's largest patched gang respectively...

... and you were doing 104km/hr and you lived! you scofflaw... and gambler :-)

[buggerit]

Told the wife I had to downsize so went from an SV1000 to a GSXR750 a couple of years back. Engine capacity went down, power, speed, handling, grin factor and general hooliganism went up. She's happy I am on a smaller bike, I am happy because she doesn't know the rest.

Not sure how I am going to justify going back up in capacity to her next time. Might just have to get some 500cc stickers made to cover up the numbers.

Tell her you got it "ON SPECIAL" because it has the wrong stickers:shifty:

[Cadbury]

I've been lucky enough to have been riding continuously since 1982, so I survived my teenage years and have done my fair share of stupid things, often on bikes with seriously marginal brakes, tyres and frames. I'm happy to ride on modern radials with decent brakes on bikes with well-considered geometry, although none of my bikes has much more than 100bhp. I have been known to ride in a "brisk and spirited manner" and value a steady smooth rate than riding like my arse was on fire.

I try and stack the odds in my favour wherever possible, always dress for the crash not the ride, and am anal about tyre and suspension condition, and I probably focus too much attention on road hazards like gravel and slick tar which makes me a bit slow in places where I'm uncertain.

I do treat riding as a mental exercise, one which requires 100% concentration, and if I'm not feeling the vibe then I prefer to stay home. I've done three ride training courses, the Coca Cola riding school in 1982 to placate my Dad, and then the Ride Forever Silver and Gold courses in 2017. The latter highlighted some of my bad habits around cornering lines and certainly made me re-evaluate what I was doing, and I'm intending to repeat the courses reasonably often. It was good to hear that ACC might offer a discount for trained riders, to me that made a lot of sense.

It might be curmudgeonly of me, but I sense that the average driver is getting more complacent, probably in line with the reduction in actual road policing that goes on. On the open road there seems to be a real trend towards lazy cornering that aims to move the steering wheel the least while only having a passing thought towards remaining in a lane or keeping left. Maybe too many other distractions in modern cars as well, from personal experience the touchscreen interface is a real problem as you try to hit a specific spot while the car is bouncing. Bring back the knobs and buttons I say!

[Ulsterkiwi]

I ride year round - I don't park the bikes in winter ..

I think I'm just a lucky hoon ..

Less luck, more you keep riding, riding is a skill, use it or lose it.




Yeah - I did consider that - as I dropped in behind the last bike in the snake it looked like a young woman on a harley 500 .. she freaked and wobbled - did not seem happy for me to be behind her ... So then I wasn't ..


Yeah - chances are they did not see me before I passed them ... (the last one certainly did .. ) Yes - I've have bikes pass that I didn't even see coming ... as long as they don't hit me all good .. the only ones who rattle me are way too close .. others .. (Well, I tend to open the throttle and chase them .. but never too hard - I won't push anyone who doesn't look confident - and I won't chase competent riders on real sports bikes - I know what I can and can't do .. if they are really moving I let them go - but it's funny to watch guys on high speed sports bike who can't lose a 650 bandit ...) .. I was really wide on the corner - almost on the right side white line ..

In the end - such things happen on the road - and they need to get used to traffic .. If they had been at 100klicks I would not have done it .. they was only doing 80ks ... (I had a thought there - but it's gone ... ) ... Oh yeah - they didn't see me coming - and I was GONE before they could react ..

Fair enough, often the best way to deal with a hazard, whether real or potential is to get away from it. You are correct in that part of the learning process is about the unexpected or other road users acting outside the box. I guess its my inclination to be that bit more accommodating when I see L plates or groups like that which are likely under instruction.






I really watch the road - no letting the attention wander off .. unless I'm cruising .. I watch cars, their body language, driver's heads - anything looks even slightly suspect I back off ...

So often I'm reacting BEFORE anything actually happens ...

I suppose you'd call that experience ..

I would suggest its anticipation, analysis and response. There are plenty of "experienced" riders who take in as much information as you do and watch the road really carefully. They just don't do anything with it. 30 Years riding may just mean 30 years of making the same mistakes over and over again.
These are possibly the same riders whose mates talk about how good a rider they were after they die riding.

Roadcraft is essentially what you are describing: watching the road is gathering information, looking for what is suspect; backing off could be one or all of position, speed and gear in response to what you anticipate happening and then; accelerate to get away (at 140klicks on a bend is probably not always the best solution there.....) rinse and repeat.

Thank you for the honest answer. Your posts have always struck me as coming from a decent spud, glad to see I wasn't wrong.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Not all Hi Vis is equal either. I recently replaced my free, SaferRides Hi Vis because the zip would come undone sometimes when riding at 104 km/h. I bought a Revit vest, which meets ECE whatever and seems a couple of shades brighter than the old one.

In the few months I've been using it, I can't recall a single incident where someone has failed to see me, even on the motorway.

The instructor on the Ride Forever course did mention that wearing a white helmet was the one thing you could do that would most increase your chances of being seen.

Do bear in mind those are all passive aids, not things to rely on. There are lots of positive actions you can take to ensure you can be seen and even more important, positive actions to take when you make the assumption that other road users may not see you despite all your efforts.

I also think there is some merit in our clothing having an impact on other road users actions.

I ride a big bike with lots of lights. I wear black gear with lots of reflective patches and flashes and a white helmet. The back of the bike has an auxillary tail and brake light. Also there is hatched reflective tape on the back of the top box. I am also the better part of 2m tall and 112kgs in my birthday suit.
The number of drivers who slow down when they see me, pull alongside me etc is quite funny at times, there is just enough about me and the bike to make them wonder if I am a patrol bike. It could be simply confirmation bias on my part of course.

Another decision I made was about hi viz vests. There are two hanging in my cupboard and they will likely stay there I spent a hell of a lot of money on gear that is guaranteed waterproof. Part of that is because the outer skin of the gear repels water and does not get saturated. If I were to put a hiz viz vest on it will not function like that and will get saturated in the wet. Come the hotter drier weather that same hi viz gear stops the venting system on my jacket working properly. Given how much of me is actually visible from the front and rear of the bike I have decided I am in fact safer being dry and warm or properly cooled than relying on some other muppet seeing me because I have a hi viz vest on. Instead I take positive actions to make myself seen and more importantly act as if I am not seen anyway.

There is a guy who has a blog/website called the Science of Being Seen, he came to Shiny Side Up last year and is coming this year. Check him out, he has a lot to say about being seen and its hard to argue with much of what he says.

[FJRider]

black-on-black riders may be more likely regarded as thugs so do not mess with them & steer clear (literally and figuratively).



Why Black gear is still very popular ... but it is hard to look menacing on a GN125 ... :pinch:

[Ulsterkiwi]

Why Black gear is still very popular ... but it is hard to look menacing on a GN125 ... :pinch:

unless you are attempting to menace the GN125

[FJRider]

unless you are attempting to menace the GN125

Those brave enough to be riding a GN125 ... must be brave enough to handle it ... ;)

[MD]

All the arguments in the world won't get me ever wearing hi-viz. We're motorcyclists, not cotton wool wrapped wimpets.

[SVboy]

Interesting thread. As I get older my desire to ride hard is undeminished. My experience level is good. I try to remain fit because it helps. Unfortunately my eyes are painted on, so that has always been a limiting factor, that is increasing over time. I sold my sports bike to slow myself down on the open road and because I was getting uncomfortable. Still not over doing that. Fortunately I still have the Busa....The street triple I replaced it with is brilliant, if a bit soulless. A right weapon on the Akaroa hill. I find I struggle when riding my trail bike, just don't have the muscle strength I had once. I think riding as much as possible is the best help in helping us mature riders stay current. Riding courses are a good idea. I have done a few, but must do more. I might be growing older, but I am in no hurry to grow up....

[pete376403]

Interesting. Any evidence of this? if true - why do we have orange and blue for attention-getting lights for motor vehicle indicators and NZ's largest patched gang respectively...

... and you were doing 104km/hr and you lived! you scofflaw... and gambler :-)

My old GS1100GK suzuki, with a full barn-door fairing and me wearing a white helmet - to a barely awake driver maybe I resemble a police bike and they act accordingly. The fuck-off Fiamm horns are for those who dont.

[scumdog]

yeah I get the majority thing as in 45-55 the commonest age for a rider, fuck we come from that area... but we are very experienced, myself mega mileage under my belt on the road on the track even an acredited MNZ coach... but I dont have it anymore is this common with getting to this age group? are we to blazay I bloody well hope not


at 50 I doubt to many treat the road as a race track... or do we, like it was us that drank and drove in the day... and yes every time ya ride ya learn, think ya know it all and its all over...


Me?
At 65 I ride like a nana (even more than I used to!) and terrified every time I see a car approach from a side road/street or pass a vehicle parked at the side of the road in the open road areas - and very wary of those that pull left without indicating. (after nearly getting taken out by one driver that did tat who then started doing a U-turn right on front of me).

In fact after a long spell without riding I am petrified when I start a ride and then go to 'somewhat less than petrified' for the the rest of the ride - OK, well maybe just very very aware and cautious!

And the older I get the more wary I get.

Probably because I've been to more motorbike crashes than the average rider?

[scumdog]

Do bear in mind those are all passive aids, not things to rely on. There are lots of positive actions you can take to ensure you can be seen and even more important, positive actions to take when you make the assumption that other road users may not see you despite all your efforts.

I also think there is some merit in our clothing having an impact on other road users actions.

I ride a big bike with lots of lights. I wear black gear with lots of reflective patches and flashes and a white helmet. The back of the bike has an auxillary tail and brake light. Also there is hatched reflective tape on the back of the top box. I am also the better part of 2m tall and 112kgs in my birthday suit.
The number of drivers who slow down when they see me, pull alongside me etc is quite funny at times, there is just enough about me and the bike to make them wonder if I am a patrol bike. It could be simply confirmation bias on my part of course.

Another decision I made was about hi viz vests. There are two hanging in my cupboard and they will likely stay there I spent a hell of a lot of money on gear that is guaranteed waterproof. Part of that is because the outer skin of the gear repels water and does not get saturated. If I were to put a hiz viz vest on it will not function like that and will get saturated in the wet. Come the hotter drier weather that same hi viz gear stops the venting system on my jacket working properly. Given how much of me is actually visible from the front and rear of the bike I have decided I am in fact safer being dry and warm or properly cooled than relying on some other muppet seeing me because I have a hi viz vest on. Instead I take positive actions to make myself seen and more importantly act as if I am not seen anyway.

There is a guy who has a blog/website called the Science of Being Seen, he came to Shiny Side Up last year and is coming this year. Check him out, he has a lot to say about being seen and its hard to argue with much of what he says.

Bright-as riding lights as well as your headlight helps with the visibility, especially if on of the riding lights 'jiggles' a bit!:msn-wink:

[AllanB]

I have noticed over the years that a patched rider riding like a ignorant cunt gets noticed by other road users.

Maybe we all just need to rider like mad fuckers.

[eldog]

Bright-as riding lights as well as your headlight helps with the visibility, especially if on of the riding lights 'jiggles' a bit!:msn-wink:
Works for me:headbang:

[SaferRides]

Do bear in mind those are all passive aids, not things to rely on. There are lots of positive actions you can take to ensure you can be seen and even more important, positive actions to take when you make the assumption that other road users may not see you despite all your efforts.

I also think there is some merit in our clothing having an impact on other road users actions.

I ride a big bike with lots of lights. I wear black gear with lots of reflective patches and flashes and a white helmet. The back of the bike has an auxillary tail and brake light. Also there is hatched reflective tape on the back of the top box. I am also the better part of 2m tall and 112kgs in my birthday suit.
The number of drivers who slow down when they see me, pull alongside me etc is quite funny at times, there is just enough about me and the bike to make them wonder if I am a patrol bike. It could be simply confirmation bias on my part of course.

Another decision I made was about hi viz vests. There are two hanging in my cupboard and they will likely stay there I spent a hell of a lot of money on gear that is guaranteed waterproof. Part of that is because the outer skin of the gear repels water and does not get saturated. If I were to put a hiz viz vest on it will not function like that and will get saturated in the wet. Come the hotter drier weather that same hi viz gear stops the venting system on my jacket working properly. Given how much of me is actually visible from the front and rear of the bike I have decided I am in fact safer being dry and warm or properly cooled than relying on some other muppet seeing me because I have a hi viz vest on. Instead I take positive actions to make myself seen and more importantly act as if I am not seen anyway.

There is a guy who has a blog/website called the Science of Being Seen, he came to Shiny Side Up last year and is coming this year. Check him out, he has a lot to say about being seen and its hard to argue with much of what he says.

Yes, where you position yourself relative to other vehicles is important also. It helps to move relative to the traffic around you - I usually vary my position in the lane to maximise how far forward I can see.

I did look at the science of being seen website but after half an hour am none the wiser. Unfortunately the general standard of research in this area is poor, like most road safety research, so the real reasons why car drivers don't see bikes are not well understood.

There does seem to be a general unwillingness to wear Hi Vis, especially by older riders. My thinking is it's never going to make me less visible, and might just prevent an accident one day. But of course, I'll never know. It is a pain wearing Hi Vis - I regularly forget to do up the zip and have to pull over to sort it. Or maybe that's my age!

What I do know is if I turn up at my clients worksites wearing black instead of Hi Vis gear, they won't let me in. Must be a reason for that.

[dangerous]

Me?
At 65 I ride like a nana (even more than I used to!) and terrified every time I see a car approach

Probably because I've been to more motorbike crashes than the average rider?

shit id be worried about loosing the enjoyment, that would be a sad loss.
Iv been to too many funurels lately...



There does seem to be a general unwillingness to wear Hi Vis, especially by older riders. My thinking is it's never going to make me less visible, and might just prevent an accident one day. But of course, I'll never know. It is a pain wearing Hi Vis - I regularly forget to do up the zip and have to pull over to sort it. Or maybe that's my age!


I wont and never will...
A, my era was black leather, so thats what i know, no corduer no one pieces shit you could race with 2 pair a jeans... so black is what Im comphy in.
B, every other day I "have" to wear hiviz, so ill be fucked if on my day off im going to, nothing worse than getting on the bike thinking ya off to work.

[Berries]

There does seem to be a general unwillingness to wear Hi Vis, especially by older riders.
I will do everything I can not to get hit by someone else but I am never going to rely on them seeing me so hi-viz is not on my list of survival aids. Big fuck off headlight shining away at the front, backpack on my back, it's not like you can see it.

Has worked for me so far, in little old Dunedin, riding around London and many places in between.


especially if on of the riding lights 'jiggles' a bit!:msn-wink:
Sorry to hear about the Parkinsons.

[FJRider]

The location and timing of the accidents suggests we should perhaps have a little "zen" moment before we leave the driveway. Stop, clear the head of whatever else is happening in your life, then ride. There is the added benefit that you'd have checked your brakes were working.

It is VERY common for accidents to occur within 10 km's of your start/stopping point ... when your mind is on things other than what you need to be aware of ... ON THE ROAD.

Keep your mind on the job you are doing until you STOP. And ... the feet are on the ground and you're parked.

[Banditbandit]

(at 140klicks on a bend is probably not always the best solution there.....)


Probably not - but it is the most fun .. and it's a road I use to go to work every day - and do it often to cars and other bikes ..

It's easier on the 650 - the 1250 is a little heavy

[Ulsterkiwi]

Probably not - but it is the most fun .. and it's a road I use to go to work every day - and do it often to cars and other bikes ..

It's easier on the 650 - the 1250 is a little heavy

Oh yes, nobody said it wasn’t fun.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pritch]

I have noticed over the years that a patched rider riding like a ignorant cunt gets noticed by other road users

That’s not infallible either. The then president of the local 1%er group got T boned by a car driven by an elderly lady. I asked him what he said. He replied that he said nothing much, he wasn’t feeling very good.

[Paul in NZ]

We are dealing with human beings. People are variable and they change over time so I dont think you can particularly draw any real conclusions from particular examples. I know 70 year olds who can ride rings around me and I have observed a decline in skills in others. You would need to baseline the skill levels to start with to make any meaningful comparison


One thing you can say is that at we get older we tend to suffer more ailments and develop more conditions.


In my case I'm riding less because other events have overtaken me and demand my attention. I doubt I will ever get back to where I was BUT at least I recognise this and ride accordingly.

[MD]

Me?
- and very wary of those that pull left without indicating. (after nearly getting taken out by one driver that did tat who then started doing a U-turn right on front of me).


Be wary. That trick cost me a broken leg in 78. Riding behind a car that suddenly swerves left into a vacant parking space. No indications. I veer a bit to my right in case he flings his driver door open. Seconds later my CB750 is embedded deep into the side of his car T boned as he u-turns in front of me. I jumped over the roof. Thought what a clever bugger I was. Femur broke as I landed on the road. He admitted he never looked behind. Never indicated. You should have heard how hard the Judges wet bus ticket brushed the back of his hand.

[dangerous]

Be wary. That trick cost me a broken leg in 78. Riding behind a car that suddenly swerves left into a vacant parking space. No indications. I veer a bit to my right in case he flings his driver door open. Seconds later my CB750 is embedded deep into the side of his car T boned as he u-turns in front of me. I jumped over the roof. Thought what a clever bugger I was. Femur broke as I landed on the road. He admitted he never looked behind. Never indicated. You should have heard how hard the Judges wet bus ticket brushed the back of his hand.

sore knees
83
vw beetel
cb125s
stayed on bike

[Dadpole]

Fear not people. The powers that be will forget the recent deaths and be looking in another direction as the media jumps on the dodgy WOF bandwagon.

[russd7]

Fear not people. The powers that be will forget the recent deaths and be looking in another direction as the media jumps on the dodgy WOF bandwagon.

yup 1000 people dead in northland from dodgy warrants and the outfit that makes sure all them what gives warrants do it proper already knew bout it. least that's what I heard anyways. bloody dodgy garages gouging the innocent public I say :yawn:

[dangerous]

Bright-as riding lights as well as your headlight helps with the visibility, especially if on of the riding lights 'jiggles' a bit!:msn-wink:

ya reckon....
its not that people dont see a bike... its that there brain dosent regester it as a danger as it is smaler than them... ie the average Jo would stop for a truck with no lights before a bike with a light

other thing is those that think high beam or a bright light is good NO shit pwople its to hard to judge distance DONT do it eg I had a close call with a adventure bike with a dozen day lights on it sure I could see it but thought h was way further than he was... sorry dude

[Banditbandit]

There does seem to be a general unwillingness to wear Hi Vis, especially by older riders.

I'm with Dangerous - I ride in black.

I saw a harley coming towards me a while ago - big as wind shield .. it wasn't till I was along side him that I realized he was wearing Hi-Viz - I could not see it through the wind shield. Behind him was his large luggage load - doubt if the Hi-Viz could be seen from the rear either ..

Another mate, riding in full on Hi-Viz got hit by a car - the first thing the driver said was "Sorry Mate I didn't see you .. ""

I'm skeptical about the value of Hi-Viz .. being aware of what is going on around you and in front of you - way in front of you - is the best protection .

[Banditbandit]

ya reckon....
its not that people dont see a bike... its that there brain dosent regester it as a danger as it is smaler than them... ie the average Jo would stop for a truck with no lights before a bike with a light

other thing is those that think high beam or a bright light is good NO shit pwople its to hard to judge distance DONT do it eg I had a close call with a adventure bike with a dozen day lights on it sure I could see it but thought h was way further than he was... sorry dude

Yes. I fucking hate bikes coming towards me with a high beam - physical hurts my eyes - the rider is blinding the driver come towards him at a potentially 200klick closing speed .. and it messes up the distance perception ...

I'm tempted to put the 4x4 lights on high beam (when I'm in that) - but then you have two people blinded ..

[pritch]

You can only do so much. Trains have a big, bright as fuck light, and people still get hit by them.

[george formby]

You can only do so much. Trains have a big, bright as fuck light, and people still get hit by them.

:laugh: I resemble that comment.

The whole thing about our brains and consequently vision being wired to see some things but disregard others is very true. Pretty sure someone posted a link to an article by an RAF pilot on how we see things here awhile ago.

Trains.. I failed to see one instantly. Big green and gleaming brass steam train, belching out smoke and, er, steam. T'was Gabriel our local steam train crossing the State Highway right in front of me. My brain did not pick it up, I'm used to looking for it approaching the crossing but this day it was creeping over the crossing.
As I approached something was telling me the view in front was different, my brain wasn't screaming "TRAIN", just something not right here. Then I spotted it. Probably happened in a fraction of a second but it was a bit weird.:shifty:

I was reminded of this when the young woman in Germany pulled out in front of a Leopard tank during her driving test and had a wee nudge.:eek:

[GazzaH]

The RAF pilot thing is well worth a careful look. No, look twice. Ho ho.

Physically seeing something, even something as big as s fuck off train, truck or tank, is not the same as registering, processing and reacting to the danger. They are separate activities. It's similar to "the cocktail party effect". Ever noticed someone mention your name from way across a crowded room, and looked up, thinking "What? Whassup?". What's going on there is pattern recognition - a fairly sophisticated capability deep in the brain.

A lot of what we do in life revolves around pattern recognition. It's why we pay so much attention to "coincidence", "luck" and "experience". It's the basis for most forms of learning through repetition and practice.

It's good enough, hopefully, to recognize the difference between, say, an enemy rushing towards you with a spear, and a fellow tribe member rushing towards you to spear the leopard just behind you.

Rational thought is distinct from the reflexive flight-or-flight stuff. Aside from taking place in separate parts of the brain, rational thought takes more 'CPU cycles' making it slower ... but it's more refined, more sophisticated, more capable. Sometimes - such as when rapidly approaching a level crossing with the unanticipated presence of hundreds of tonnes of train - slow is bad, very bad. Sometimes - such as reflexively grabbing a big fistful of brake when sliding unexpectedly - fast is bad, very bad too. And, in a nutshell, that's the paradox of our biology.

[scumdog]

I'm with Dangerous - I ride in black.

I saw a harley coming towards me a while ago - big as wind shield .. it wasn't till I was along side him that I realized he was wearing Hi-Viz - I could not see it through the wind shield. Behind him was his large luggage load - doubt if the Hi-Viz could be seen from the rear either ..

.

I've seen the same many times - I wonder if they ever have a peer revue to get an idea how visible review hi-viz really is??:scratch:

[scumdog]

You can only do so much. Trains have a big, bright as fuck light, and people still get hit by them.


Went to one such crash - the driver claimed he looked way past the train that was right on front of him, looking for an oncoming train.

(He survived, his Y-fronts didn't)

[AllanB]

There does seem to be a general unwillingness to wear Hi Vis, especially by older riders.

What I do know is if I turn up at my clients worksites wearing black instead of Hi Vis gear, they won't let me in. Must be a reason for that.

Not interested in compulsory Hi-Viz. Get Fucked.

I'd ban full black helmets though. Black with a bright pattern is fine.


Your client insisting on Hi-vis nowadays is solely to tick off health and safety boxes. The original reason is lost in bloody paperwork.

There is so much post earthquake Hi-viz in Christchurch that your brain has switched off recognizing it for it's intention. Add to that road cones. Thousands and thousands of friggen road cones we all ignore.

[tigertim20]

Hi vis is only going to incrementally increase the possibility that the braindead half asleep cunt on the road MIGHT see me.

Id rather rely on strategies that rely on ME, such as paying attention, or doing advanced training.

I've never been to a training session where I didn't learn something.

[GazzaH]

Are any of you seriously suggesting that wearing hi-viz makes you MORE vulnerable? Do you think we become targets or something?

I accept that high-viz might have no effect, sometimes, and might be (is!) effective other times ... so on balance the net effect is positive, isn't it?

We're talking about deliberately being seen, here, not deliberately remaining hidden like hunters in the bush ... and even there, high vis is recommended to reduce the risk of friendly fire.




Aside: "Friendly fire", what a strange term. Friends don't shoot each other, or if they do, I doubt they remain friends. What's friendly about being shot?

[nerrrd]

Are any of you seriously suggesting that wearing hi-viz makes you MORE vulnerable? Do you think we become targets or something?

I accept that high-viz might have no effect, sometimes, and might be (is!) effective other times ... so on balance the net effect is positive, isn't it? [/I]

Seems there’s a lot of riders who equate wearing hi-vis with wearing a tutu or something, it’s a real challenge to their egos.

They then science the shit out of the idea to justify it.

[Berries]

Are any of you seriously suggesting that wearing hi-viz makes you MORE vulnerable? Do you think we become targets or something?
I don't think anyone has suggested that.

What I would say is that IMO the proponents of hi-viz have some over inflated value of its worth. I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference to my safety on the road, if I did I would wear one. My concern (probably the wrong word, I don't really care that much about other people) is that those people who do think it makes a difference will unwittingly have that in their subconscious and think it is like some magic shield and therefore drop their guard just that tiny little bit when they are weighing up whether that car coming towards them has seen them. No evidence of this whatsoever, but I don't want to be in that position and would rather put all my efforts in to my riding and survival skills than looking like a learner or an instructor.


We're talking about deliberately being seen, here, not deliberately remaining hidden like hunters in the bush ... and even there, high vis is recommended to reduce the risk of friendly fire.
And how well is that working?




Seems there’s a lot of riders who equate wearing hi-vis with wearing a tutu or something, it’s a real challenge to their egos.
What colour is your bike? Just interested as this would seem the best way to increase visibility but you don't see many yellow bikes out there.

[AllanB]

Hi-vis

Just saying I don't want to wear that. Same as I don't wear a tie at work unless I have to represent the company at court.

The Ducati is bright red. It has DRL and a throaty exhaust. If they can't see or hear me on the road as I am, a pretty wee yellow vest won't do much.

[pritch]

Do you think we become targets or something?


Abso-fucking-lutely. When I was riding my moped drivers would head straight for the piece of road I was about to use. Presumably their thinking was that I would get out of their way or I'd get hit. This happened too often to be random, it doesn't happen on a bigger bike.




Aside: "Friendly fire", what a strange term. Friends don't shoot each other, or if they do, I doubt they remain friends. What's friendly about being shot?

"Friendly fire" is an oxymoron

[SaferRides]

Seems there’s a lot of riders who equate wearing hi-vis with wearing a tutu or something, it’s a real challenge to their egos.

They then science the shit out of the idea to justify it.
Based on my own observations, very few riders over 50 wear Hi Vis. Same with Harley riders.

I certainly don't think it has magical powers. In some circumstances it might make you more visible. That's all.

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk

[nzspokes]

Based on my own observations, very few riders over 50 wear Hi Vis.

You need to get out more

[nerrrd]

Yeah my bike is dark grey, I wanted a white one but it was the only one available at the time with the specs I wanted in my price range. Only yellow one I’ve seen on the market lately is a cb500r I think? There would be a lot of kawasaki lime green ones around that are still involved in accidents I’m sure. And red ones.

I don’t think hivis has magical powers either, I just think it’s a cheap, valid passive safety measure that’s worth taking if it makes even one other road user notice you when they wouldn’t have otherwise.

Active safety measures are an infinitely better option but also a lot harder for the average rider to learn and practice conscientiously.

I just think it’s OK to say you don’t want to wear it because you don’t want to look like a banana (or orange) or it doesn’t fit the ‘biker’ image, regardless of the benefits/liabilities involved.

[SaferRides]

You need to get out more
Agreed. But what proportion of older riders would you say wear Hi Vis?

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[FJRider]

I have noticed over the years that a patched rider riding like a ignorant cunt gets noticed by other road users.

Maybe we all just need to rider like mad fuckers.

If it works ... why not. We do have a reputation to uphold ... :devil2:

[FJRider]

Based on my own observations, very few riders over 50 wear Hi Vis. Same with Harley riders.

I certainly don't think it has magical powers. In some circumstances it might make you more visible. That's all.



Apart from the reflective strips on my Dri-Rider riding gear ... I'm not a fan/user of the Hi-viz stuff. In daylight you usually don't notice the rider is wearing it until you get close enough to see the make and model of the bike.

It is far more effective at night however ... but those that choose to wear it at any time ... is their business. It only needs to help you be seen earlier once to be counted as effective and worth it's cost.

And to be honest ... there are times we need all the help we can get to be seen on the road. And some motorists need all the help we can give them ... to help them see us.

At the end of the day ... to be seen by another motorist ... those other motorists must actually be looking ...

[george formby]

Apart from the reflective strips on my Dri-Rider riding gear ... I'm not a fan/user of the Hi-viz stuff. In daylight you usually don't notice the rider is wearing it until you get close enough to see the make and model of the bike.

It is far more effective at night however ... but those that choose to wear it at any time ... is their business. It only needs to help you be seen earlier once to be counted as effective and worth it's cost.

And to be honest ... there are times we need all the help we can get to be seen on the road. And some motorists need all the help we can give them ... to help them see us.

At the end of the day ... to be seen by another motorist ... those other motorists must actually be looking ...

My feelings on the matter, too. You can't quantify if you would have been hit wearing black or hi viz. A decent headlight and often, but not always, hi viz catches my eye.

When I replace my venerable jacket, hi viz will not be a priority but if I can get the quality I want and hi viz I would be a mug not to buy it.

Only yellow hi viz, though. To match my yellow bike...

IMHO, a yellow helmet gets a lot of attention, they really stand out!:eek5:

[tigertim20]

Are any of you seriously suggesting that wearing hi-viz makes you MORE vulnerable? Do you think we become targets or something?


[/I]
Is that question aimed at anyone in particuar? I dont think anyone has said it actually makes you a target?

Seems there’s a lot of riders who equate wearing hi-vis with wearing a tutu or something, it’s a real challenge to their egos.

They then science the shit out of the idea to justify it.

I haven't seen anyone try to 'science the shit out of it', nor do I think its a matter of 'Ego'.
theres really only two ways to potentially improve your safety on the road:
1) attempt to influence other road users
2) Take personal control of your safety

using Hi-Vis is not taking personal control - it s relying on other road users to see you. theres a myriad of reasons why it doesnt always work - drivers to tired, or too focussed on the radio, cellphone, lipstick, burger they're eating while driving etc etc.
You own headlight use reduces effectiveness of Hi Vis, and things like riding position, screen and packracks etc can nullify the benefits of HiVis too. essentially, Hi Vis MIGHT help A BIT, but only sometimes

Bottom line for me, is that, NOBODY cares more about MY safety, than ME.

Im not going to put my safety in the hands of some random other road user - Im going to take control by doing things like choosing line and lane position, taking courses and refresher courses, paying attention to the condition of my motorcycle, and assuming that every other road user is oblivious to my presence.
In my mind THOSE are the things that are more likely to secure my safety than wearing a Hi Vis.

No 'Ego' or 'Science' about it - just a logical, though out consideration of how I can improve my safety on the road.

But hey, your opinion is the only one that counts, and anyone who doesn't agree must be a cunt, right?

[AllanB]

Bottom line for me, is that, NOBODY cares more about MY safety, than ME.



No 'Ego' or 'Science' about it - just a logical, though out consideration of how I can improve my safety on the road.

But hey, your opinion is the only one that counts, and anyone who doesn't agree must be a cunt, right?


Good post. No right or wrong, make a choice, and take ownership of your own riding as much as you can.

Oh I will add one condition where I would put on hi-viz - pissing rain, as in a hi-viz wet weather gear. But I gave up heading out in shit weather like that some years back.

[Berries]

I just think it’s OK to say you don’t want to wear it because you don’t want to look like a banana (or orange) or it doesn’t fit the ‘biker’ image, regardless of the benefits/liabilities involved.
Fashion definitely comes in to it. My jacket cost an arm and a leg so I don't want to then cover it up with a ten dollar piece of Chinese shit if it doesn't do anything. If I believed in hi-viz I would buy a proper hi-viz motorbike jacket so I always have it on and can still use pockets and vents etc.

Oddly, I do have a white helmet which has been shown somewhere to have certain safety benefits over other colours. The only reason I got that was black helmets are like clitoris helmets down this way, and I wanted to be a bit different.

[pritch]

Yeah my bike is dark grey,

If you read the available studies you will note that the colour of an oncoming bike is pretty much irrelevant, drivers can't see it.

An all white bike with a windscreen might fool some geriatrics into thinking it might be a cop bike, but most of the country hasn't experienced those in over a generation.

[scumdog]

Based on my own observations, very few riders over 50 wear Hi Vis. Same with Harley riders.

I certainly don't think it has magical powers. In some circumstances it might make you more visible. That's all.

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk


Well I've been a Harley rider for yonks, always had driving (riding?) lights as extras on my bikes, current bike is an Ultra-Gilde Classic with extra spot-light deals on the front.

Our tent is wrapped in a fluero coloured bag on the luggage rack on top of the top-box.


I don't put much faith in being visible due to add-ons saving my arse - but I do believe every bit helps

And I wear black leather BTW.

[Ocean1]

Good post. No right or wrong, make a choice, and take ownership of your own riding as much as you can.

Oh I will add one condition where I would put on hi-viz - pissing rain, as in a hi-viz wet weather gear. But I gave up heading out in shit weather like that some years back.


Aye. I have one of these: https://www.evolutioncycles.co.nz/Product/266707/proviz-reflect360-cycle-jackets?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6czZ5sbs3gIVjYuPCh26YQff EAQYASABEgIe3vD_BwE

Which I carry on tour. The normal Buffalo leather/composite jacket isn't quite up to genuine non-stop west coast rain, the provis skin is big enough to go over the top and makes for a much dryer ride. In those sort of conditions it also reflects headlights back to source to a surprisingly effective degree.

[nzspokes]

Agreed. But what proportion of older riders would you say wear Hi Vis?

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Most that I ride with, look like a bunch of fucking road cones going for a ride.

This would probably be of more use to help keep you alive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7EV4MA-vw

[nerrrd]

...using Hi-Vis is not taking personal control - it s relying on other road users to see you. theres a myriad of reasons why it doesnt always work...Hi Vis MIGHT help A BIT, but only sometimes...

This is what I don't understand, you say you won't wear hivis because you want to take personal responsibility for your safety, yet at the same time acknowledge it might help a bit sometimes. If you're taking personal responsibility for your safety, why would you not take all the help you can get?

How does wearing hivis make anyone less responsible for their own safety, I don't see how these are mutually exclusive in some minds. Why the assumption that as soon as you put some hivis on you will immediately stop practising all the other active safety behaviours that help keep you out of harm's way? Why not use both? Unless you simply don't want to wear hivis for some other, more sartorial reason?

But hey, your opinion is the only one that counts, right?



But hey, your opinion is the only one that counts, and anyone who doesn't agree must be a cunt, right?

No cunts, this is Kiwibiker after all.

[SaferRides]

Deleted post.

[caspernz]

Based on my own observations, very few riders over 50 wear Hi Vis.

Perception becomes reality. In my group there are hardly any over 50 without the hi-viz stuff on.

There is a slight variation in how other road users treat me, with or without hi-viz on, but I don't feel any safer with hi-viz on. My bright yellow bike is its own hi-viz device.

[SaferRides]

Perception becomes reality. In my group there are hardly any over 50 without the hi-viz stuff on.

There is a slight variation in how other road users treat me, with or without hi-viz on, but I don't feel any safer with hi-viz on. My bright yellow bike is its own hi-viz device.
It's just my observations based on groups I've ridden with and riders I've met. I didn't start wearing it regularly until about 2 years ago.

I certainly don't feel any safer.

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[AllanB]

This would probably be of more use to help keep you alive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7EV4MA-vw


Stopped watching after a few minutes.

At 1.35 the instructor starts passing one of the bikes with a on coming car. Then proceeds to ride along with only one hand on the bar while giving out safety instructions ..........

But they are wearing hi-viz :-)

[tigertim20]

This is what I don't understand, you say you won't wear hivis because you want to take personal responsibility for your safety, yet at the same time acknowledge it might help a bit sometimes. If you're taking personal responsibility for your safety, why would you not take all the help you can get?


Its more about the amount of gain for the amount of effort. I get far more gain from all the other steps which require less effort that fucking around with a HiVis over top of my leathers and camelback.

The Hi-Vis requires effort and cost and it MIGHT work

My ongoing training, hypervigilance and assumption that nobody has seen me is ALWAYS working



How does wearing hivis make anyone less responsible for their own safety, I don't see how these are mutually exclusive in some minds. Why the assumption that as soon as you put some hivis on you will immediately stop practising all the other active safety behaviours that help keep you out of harm's way? Why not use both? Unless you simply don't want to wear hivis for some other, more sartorial reason?


where did I say wearing it makes you less responsible? It seems you are so stuck on your own pro HiVis rhetoric that you twist comments to argue against something that was never said in the first place.
Hi Vis is a passive attempt at improving safety.
Im not a passive person. The efforts I put into ensuring my own safety are active efforts.

Here's the difference really - with the other steps that I actively take everytime I ride - any potnetial benefit of HiVis is redundant, because Ive already located the risk (other drivers etc) and actively taken steps and had a contingency plan - and Ive done this before the driver has had a chance to see me (or not)

In my years of riding I have never once had a situation where Ive thought afterwards - 'fuck, a hivis might have actually helped there'. If that sentiment were different Id perhaps wear them.
If YOU wanna wear a hiVis, great go wear one, but just because it makes YOU feel safer doesn't mean you need to bang on about why everyone who doesn't wear them should, and has (in your opinion) flawed logic


No cunts, this is Kiwibiker after all.

this IS kiwibiker, which means MOST of us are probably cunts.

[Berries]

.............but just because it makes YOU feel safer doesn't mean you need to bang on about why everyone who doesn't wear them should, and has (in your opinion) flawed logic

this IS kiwibiker, which means MOST of us are probably cunts.
Careful, you're starting to sound like FJRider with all your capitals.

[FJRider]

Careful, you're starting to sound like FJRider with all your capitals.

Capitals are like Hi-viz ... if that's what it takes to get noticed ... ;)

[FJRider]

It's just my observations based on groups I've ridden with and riders I've met. I didn't start wearing it regularly until about 2 years ago.

I certainly don't feel any safer.

Sent from my expensive and pretty pink phone

Do you ride any different than you did in the past ... or do you just sit there and let the Hi-viz do it's thing ... ??

[rambaldi]

Its more about the amount of gain for the amount of effort. I get far more gain from all the other steps which require less effort that fucking around with a HiVis over top of my leathers and camelback.

The Hi-Vis requires effort and cost and it MIGHT work

My ongoing training, hypervigilance and assumption that nobody has seen me is ALWAYS working



How difficult is your Hi-Viz to put on? Mine lives on my jacket, put the jacket on and it is already on there. Didn't even pay anything for it as it came free from a training course.

[dangerous]

fucking wombles... I dont remember titling this thread HI-VIZ lol...

hey look... there has been some valuable info posted thanks people, what i have found is what I was thinking has ben reinforced so im not far off the mark... im aging, deal with it and get back to enjoying the ride.

[AllanB]

fucking wombles... I dont remember titling this thread HI-VIZ lol...

hey look... there has been some valuable info posted thanks people, what i have found is what I was thinking has ben reinforced so im not far off the mark... im aging, deal with it and get back to enjoying the ride.


BUT if you are over 50 and riding then you must wear hi-viz ? :bash:

Is Hi-viz the Viagra of motorcycling? :shit:

[nzspokes]

Stopped watching after a few minutes.

At 1.35 the instructor starts passing one of the bikes with a on coming car. Then proceeds to ride along with only one hand on the bar while giving out safety instructions ..........

But they are wearing hi-viz :-)

He was well clear on the overtake.

[AllanB]

He was well clear on the overtake.

Common NZS - if I posted a weekend ride video of that passing maneuver you'd be one of the first to call me out. Now there may be some great riding tips in the video but after that pass and the one handed riding while giving out advice I gave up.

What's the bar width? about 700mm probably. Do a visual or finger ruler and he is no more than 5-600 mm from a on-coming car. I don;t know how you Auckland guys ride, but that strikes me as bloody close.


I'd put money on it the blue car driver was mouthing 'what's that fucker doing on the center-line - bloody temporary citizen....'

Goes to show we are all human and regardless of your training or hi-viz, sometimes as humans we do shit.

[nzspokes]

Common NZS - if I posted a weekend ride video of that passing maneuver you'd be one of the first to call me out. Now there may be some great riding tips in the video but after that pass and the one handed riding while giving out advice I gave up.

What's the bar width? about 700mm probably. Do a visual or finger ruler and he is no more than 5-600 mm from a on-coming car. I don;t know how you Auckland guys ride, but that strikes me as bloody close.


I'd put money on it the blue car driver was mouthing 'what's that fucker doing on the center-line - bloody temporary citizen....'

Goes to show we are all human and regardless of your training or hi-viz, sometimes as humans we do shit.

Still a ton of room, overtake wasnt on until the car passed. All he did was move to position 3.

[nerrrd]

Its more about the amount of gain for the amount of effort. I get far more gain from all the other steps which require less effort that fucking around with a HiVis over top of my leathers and camelback.

The Hi-Vis requires effort and cost and it MIGHT work

My ongoing training, hypervigilance and assumption that nobody has seen me is ALWAYS working





where did I say wearing it makes you less responsible? It seems you are so stuck on your own pro HiVis rhetoric that you twist comments to argue against something that was never said in the first place.
Hi Vis is a passive attempt at improving safety.
Im not a passive person. The efforts I put into ensuring my own safety are active efforts.

Here's the difference really - with the other steps that I actively take everytime I ride - any potnetial benefit of HiVis is redundant, because Ive already located the risk (other drivers etc) and actively taken steps and had a contingency plan - and Ive done this before the driver has had a chance to see me (or not)

In my years of riding I have never once had a situation where Ive thought afterwards - 'fuck, a hivis might have actually helped there'. If that sentiment were different Id perhaps wear them.
If YOU wanna wear a hiVis, great go wear one, but just because it makes YOU feel safer doesn't mean you need to bang on about why everyone who doesn't wear them should, and has (in your opinion) flawed logic



this IS kiwibiker, which means MOST of us are probably cunts.

For sure, cunts to a man.

Frankly I am in awe of your ability to actively monitor every single threat in every single direction every time you ride.

For me active + passive = more safety. I still don't really understand how active + passive wouldn't equal more safety for you as well, but there you go. Good luck to you.

[AllanB]

Still a ton of room, overtake wasnt on until the car passed. All he did was move to position 3.


We will agree to disagree over your man love of the trainers passing skills.

[george formby]

fucking wombles... I dont remember titling this thread HI-VIZ lol...

hey look... there has been some valuable info posted thanks people, what i have found is what I was thinking has ben reinforced so im not far off the mark... im aging, deal with it and get back to enjoying the ride.

Uncle Bulgaria here. Yeah, but nah. But yeah.

I need reading glasses now, but can still identify the sex of a sand fly at 50 paces. My clarity of thinking varies more, probably a consequence of diet and beer. I break easier.

If I'm riding I make sure I'm well fueled and have a good mind set, some days I do dumb things, the old body ain't the mammoth killing weapon it used to be regardless of the teenage mind. Dumb days are for the garden, not riding bikes.

Having finally come to terms with the fact I'm not the next Rossi, pretty crap on a bike to be fair, I've done a fair bit of training. To be safe...

The irony of this safety training is that it has allowed me to ride the way I always wanted to, the way I used to fantasise about. Smooth, quick, unruffled by what the road throws at me.

Whodda thunk it? Despite my faculty's fading the compensation is keeping me ahead. The less I trust myself the more effort I put into being smart about my riding.

Many here say that you learn something every ride, true. It's not just about the ride but us as individuals, don't hide from failings as time goes by, fix them!

Swinging deep through a corner gives me the same buzz it always has, I just consider how deep and how fast a bit more.

Thinking about ageing and how it resonates on life in general.. I would be miserable if I was still shit at everything now. Turns out over the years quite a lot of learning, figuring out, putting balls on the line, has had a positive affect. I can do loads of stuff I had never thought about years ago. I can do stuff on a bike that I tried 40 years ago and screwed up. I learned how to do it with a 50+ head and body. Haven't completely broken either of them yet. Cool.:wait:

[johcar]

Is that question aimed at anyone in particuar? I dont think anyone has said it actually makes you a target?


I haven't seen anyone try to 'science the shit out of it', nor do I think its a matter of 'Ego'.
theres really only two ways to potentially improve your safety on the road:
1) attempt to influence other road users
2) Take personal control of your safety

using Hi-Vis is not taking personal control - it s relying on other road users to see you. theres a myriad of reasons why it doesnt always work - drivers to tired, or too focussed on the radio, cellphone, lipstick, burger they're eating while driving etc etc.
You own headlight use reduces effectiveness of Hi Vis, and things like riding position, screen and packracks etc can nullify the benefits of HiVis too. essentially, Hi Vis MIGHT help A BIT, but only sometimes

Bottom line for me, is that, NOBODY cares more about MY safety, than ME.

Im not going to put my safety in the hands of some random other road user - Im going to take control by doing things like choosing line and lane position, taking courses and refresher courses, paying attention to the condition of my motorcycle, and assuming that every other road user is oblivious to my presence.
In my mind THOSE are the things that are more likely to secure my safety than wearing a Hi Vis.

No 'Ego' or 'Science' about it - just a logical, though out consideration of how I can improve my safety on the road.

But hey, your opinion is the only one that counts, and anyone who doesn't agree must be a cunt, right?I've been riding since I was 15, with a bit of a break while the kids were living at home.

Before I got back on the bikes, I tried the pedally kind, to try to lose some weight and build fitness.

Went for a ride with a group of 10 friends one evening wearing a flashing led-embedded hi-vis vest, flashing lights on my bike helmet, flashing lights on the handlebars. I was leading the second group of 5 riders and a dickhead decided to do a u-turn in front of me (I was in downhill mode going about 35km/h). I broke my collar bone, scapula and 5 ribs and tore my acromion after taking issue with the dickhead's A-pillar. Hi-vis did me no favours then, so I don't bother with it now.

I ride with a black leather jacket, a yellow helmet and a white Tiger 800 and rely on my years of experience to spot dickheads in cages doing(or about to do) stupid things.

The Silver, Gold and Gravel Training I have done recently with Prorider confirmed and enhanced my skills.

I have put 26K on my June 2017 Tiger, incident-free, mostly commuting in Auckland traffic...

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[russd7]

im over 50. I wear glasses and have done since age 10, can't be fucked wearing hi vis and lookin like a bloody tinky winky, I went for a group ride today and we brought everyone home safe. I Like my black leather and the missus thinks I look cool in it.
I take my own safety in my own hands and don't rely on others and to be honest if I could I would also ride with my headlight off simply because I am of the belief that with all the cars driving round with there lights on it just confuses the average motorist.


im still alive to ride another day

[nerrrd]

fucking wombles... I dont remember titling this thread HI-VIZ lol...

hey look... there has been some valuable info posted thanks people, what i have found is what I was thinking has ben reinforced so im not far off the mark... im aging, deal with it and get back to enjoying the ride.

Underground, overground, wombling free...I'm over 50 so I'm an ageing rider. I thought we were supposed to be discussing measures you can take to improve your chances of surviving on the roads. My bad, as you were.

[FJRider]

Underground, overground, wombling free...I'm over 50 so I'm an ageing rider. I thought we were supposed to be discussing measures you can take to improve your chances of surviving on the roads. My bad, as you were.

Wearing Hi-vis gear is effectively being safety pro-active ... with no effort whatsoever. And ... often at no (or little) extra cost. Even if the results (your continued survival .. ??) will show little or no advantage to not wearing any ... and you are seen (excuse the pun) to be pro-active in your personal safety.

Win win ... right ... ??? (or have I got it wrong ... again .. ??)

I can see why it's so popular ... :whistle:

[Banditbandit]

Agreed. But what proportion of older riders would you say wear Hi Vis?

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk


Perception becomes reality. In my group there are hardly any over 50 without the hi-viz stuff on.




In the group of around 30 older riders I ride with there are only two of us that do not wear Hi-Viz ..

[dangerous]

fuck ya hiviz shit... if a cage driver dosnt see ya with out, they aint gona see you with... heres something funny

a friend just told me when they were sitting there licence in Auckland ie the practical, the instructor was well lit up in hi viz like a squid boat... Kath didnt find out if she passed or not cos the instructer was taken out big time... so... go figger

[Berries]

go figger
Is that the new James Bnod film?

[GazzaH]

I'm grateful for all the Darwin award applicants out there zooming around in their black leather, lights out, two-wheeled ninjas with straight pipes and an unshakable belief in their capacity to spot and respond to all hazards.

Good on yer! The more of you, the more I stand out.

It comes down to our personal risk assessments & preferences.

I just hope I don't accidentally run into one of the stealth bombers and hurt my knee.

[george formby]

Is that the new James Bnod film?

I thought the new one was an Aussie production, HoldenAye?

I wonder who will replace Pierced Brossom?

[AllanB]

James Bond wouldn't wear hi-viz.

Mind you he rode that god awful BMW cruiser thing some years back.

Side note to that comment - there is a modified version of one around Christchurch (or was I've not seen it for a while) that looks quite cool.

[AllanB]

If you are going to wear one, can't ya wear a half way decent looking vest instead of a $10 Warehouse one?

As design goes I have always thought the Icon brand military vest was one of the better ones.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDwzzXlRrI

[granstar]

I wear black leathers with a white helmet and people see me and I think it is due to the colour contrast. My old bike doesn't run daytime lights nor required to and never had any issue with not being seen, mind only been riding since 1975 daily.

[dangerous]

I'm grateful for all the Darwin award applicants out there zooming around in their black leather, lights out, two-wheeled ninjas with straight pipes and an unshakable belief in their capacity to spot and respond to all hazards.

Good on yer! The more of you, the more I stand out.

It comes down to our personal risk assessments & preferences.

I just hope I don't accidentally run into one of the stealth bombers and hurt my knee.

darwin.. as in "thick"? no I resent that ;-) I zoom, I wear black, lights ON tho, loud pipes yeah but not straight... and fuck yes I use my brain to spot and respond to what I hope is all hazards... its worked for near 40yrs and 500,000k on the road and track...
We are born with brains why do we insist on letting the brain die slowly due to rules and regs and thinking hiviz will save the world...???


I wear black leathers with a white helmet and people see me and I think it is due to the colour contrast. My old bike doesn't run daytime lights nor required to and never had any issue with not being seen, mind only been riding since 1975 daily.

contrast YES hivis has become to common, people simply switch off to it

[SaferRides]

If you are going to wear one, can't ya wear a half way decent looking vest instead of a $10 Warehouse one?

As design goes I have always thought the Icon brand military vest was one of the better ones.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDwzzXlRrI
I scored a free one from SaferRides but the zip failed after a year.

I now have a Revit mesh HiVis imported from Europe because they're not sold here. Figure that one out after last summer! It's much nicer to wear, has stretch panels at the side and doesn't flap in the wind.

So yeah, don't be cheap and buy something decent quality.

Sent from my HUAWEI SCL-L02 using Tapatalk

[george formby]

contrast YES hivis has become to common, people simply switch off to it

This, I like.

It's the reason why I like a hi viz helmet, really noticeable if I waggle it at people. You can even see it over a hedge.:apumpin:

Absolutely, it's the point of difference and movement which catches the eye. Hi viz clothing has a place but it's (literally) further down the attention scale.

My humble feelings on the whole, most appropriate, apparel debate is moot. If helmet mounted disco balls, strobing knee pads and jackets with fluoro wings that popped out every time I got close to a junction became mandatory apparel, I would still ride and feel no safer.

With exactly the same mind set I rode with yesterday.

I'm riding the bike, I take responsibility for being here, I'm going to enjoy my ride and get home safely with no expectations of any other road users.

[Hugo Nougo]

trying to be more visible is all well and good, but i agree its only a small part of surviving. The most visible ive ever been was while riding an ex MOT cb650 back in the 80s, no one pulled out in front of me, it worked so well i installed a hi-stop and promptly got fined and told to take it off. If youre afraid you might look like a pussy and be treated that way by other road users tells me more about your attitudes than other peoples.

As experienced motorcyclists im sure you all percieve and avoid potential accidents every ride, and 9 out of 10 times 999 out of 1000 youre on the ball but being human has consequences and us older humans are more prone to make mistakes.
This week i had 2 wake up calls, my eyes arent what they used to be so accepting this and adapting is paramount.

Ive had videos on bikes for a long time, it helps me learn to ride better. Heres a few old clips to illustrate some of the hazards that are out there. It might help someone recognize some dangerous situations.

https://youtu.be/ttTGY65B4Xo

[Blackbird]

Ive had videos on bikes for a long time, it helps me learn to ride better. Heres a few old clips to illustrate some of the hazards that are out there. It might help someone recognize some dangerous situations.https://youtu.be/ttTGY65B4Xo

I like the following video because it demonstrates really good situational awareness (info processing) and how that is translating to his road position, speed, gear selection and acceleration sense (throttle control): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qLb6CDItK4&list=PLlCvwA_xSYovx_2cux3PFuQCoAZB3qZIS .

[insomnia01]

I turned 51 earlier this year & I'm starting to feel it when I go on a long ride & certainly feel it @600km mark & the recent 1KC ( 1000km day ride ) I started to question how many more of these I could manage safely, I love riding my ZX14 that much I recently purchased a ZG1400 & feel at home on it with my partner ( same age grp) mentioning how relaxed it was in comparison . I stopped doing night rides sometime ago now cause I really felt uneasy riding in such conditions so gave up doing the likes of Grand challenges etc, I'll leave the ZX in the garage for when I want to go for a loop on one of my many favorite roads here in the Waikato but now owning a tourer I should still have many, many years yet doing more 1KC rides. :headbang::headbang::headbang:

[Banditbandit]

https://scontent.fhlz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47429816_2087553078241055_6733033046674505728_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fhlz2-1.fna&oh=766b3ee42d396abceb9e1f7b8fe63fb9&oe=5CB08F7A

[SaferRides]

https://scontent.fhlz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47429816_2087553078241055_6733033046674505728_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fhlz2-1.fna&oh=766b3ee42d396abceb9e1f7b8fe63fb9&oe=5CB08F7AWrong colour, should be pink.

[Cadbury]

Ive had videos on bikes for a long time, it helps me learn to ride better. Heres a few old clips to illustrate some of the hazards that are out there. It might help someone recognize some dangerous situations.

https://youtu.be/ttTGY65B4Xo

That is a great video; I have experienced a lot of those myself (and probably committed a few of those errors as well). I know it is a collection of specific boo-boos but I was able to predict the likely error in most. Quite a few occur where you cannot be seen by other traffic especially when the vehicle in front is large and turns off down a side road, or when you have switched position immediately before and the driver has not figured that out. Moral of the story, always ride like you are invisible, and expect idiots and rocks around blind corners. Your evasion skills are impressive!

[pritch]

Wrong colour, should be pink.

I could be wrong, but the Mona Lisa being in the Louvre and the Louvre being in Paris, I suspect that vest has more to do with the Gilets Jaunes protest movement than with road safety.

Which leads me to recall sadly that the Louvre was closed the day I went to see it. Thank you taxpayers of the nation though, damn decent of you.

[SaferRides]

That is a great video; I have experienced a lot of those myself (and probably committed a few of those errors as well). I know it is a collection of specific boo-boos but I was able to predict the likely error in most. Quite a few occur where you cannot be seen by other traffic especially when the vehicle in front is large and turns off down a side road, or when you have switched position immediately before and the driver has not figured that out. Moral of the story, always ride like you are invisible, and expect idiots and rocks around blind corners. Your evasion skills are impressive!There are some classics there. Love the wheelie across the intersection!

It's not so much assuming you're invisible, but making yourself as visible as possible, and I don't mean wearing Hi Vis.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

yes that video reminds me of my days riding around the wellington region many moons ago, as expected the same ignorant , self obsessed bunch of drivers I remember.
as to hi-vis, I'm not an adherent as it still depends on someone else seeing it, the type of drivers who pull out , do so without looking for m/cycles, there brain isn't alert to them , so you can have red/blue lights flashing and they still wouldn't see us.
the things I've noticed as age related hindrances are mostly to do with my central processor unit- the brain
it likes to go along the same paths , or even shortcut to the same ending, both of which are dangerous as they stop us from reacting as needed or worse limit our ability to "see"a situation approaching, basic brain fade adds another level of ignorance to the hazards we face.
my method of resistance to this phenomenon -doing things differently on occasion, the thing that made this stand out for me was a couple of years off the bike, yes skills dull , but it was how my brain had slowed in it's ability to keep ahead of the road that caught my attention.
my solution is to get out of my comfort zone regularly to keep the brain engaged, speed kills they say- rubbish I say, in the right place when used with purpose it actually increases our brains functionality, for older motorcycle riders, it's brain sharpness that's important to keeping the shiny side up.
that's what works for me, but many different aspects of new ( to your brain) situations will aid the brain to respond to the needs of a road riding motorcyclist

[cold comfort]

There is a difference to learning something when younger and keeping it going as compared to doing it while younger, having a break for the usual reasons (money/work/family) and then coming back to it. You are never quite the same on the return. I played rep rugby as a teen and early 20s. I know there are seniors/master teams but 15 minutes of contact footie and I would be fucked, probably have a stroke, coronary, screw up a joint, tear muscles and basically become a jibbering mess all at the same time.
Riders who keep going, keep their skills alive and ticking over will be better for it. Riders who don't and then get older, well....
I would also argue those who put the bikes in the shed for the winter and roll them out again come the warmer (?) weather, are effectively returning riders every spring/summer. They have gotten older and none of their skills have been maintained for months. Look at how rusty professional athletes are when they first come back from the off season and those guys never really stop working.
Bottom line, what is the problem with maybe slowing down a bit and giving your reactions more of a chance. Get some training, how bad can a day on the bike be? R4E courses are $50 at worst, a couple of fills of fuel? pffffft! Cheap as chips! IAM offers mentoring completely free of charge (you do need to pay membership subs of course) There are options there to keep the brain engaged and in a way you can pace yourself and still get some fun out of riding

Sometimes I find the most objective way to baseline where I am at is to seek outside input and measurement or critique. Why? Well my perception of what is acceptable might simply be an adaptation to something which is sub-optimal from the beginning. Maybe its just me :weird:

A very thoughtful post. Like Dangerous, at 65 my eyesight now is corrective lens dependent and night vision is crap. Possibly I have adjusted to this being the new normal but am very aware of my lack of youth/ reaction time. As one who " parks up" over the winter I took a Gold Course with Dan Love as my first outing this year, then proceeded to an Adventure ride on gravel. Now confident to take my wife for a spin but the impediments are causing a decided lack of enthusiasm overall. I watched Old Rider slow down and stop some years back and now am experiencing it myself.
Without the experience and muscle memory it would not be possible. My wife attempted to get a licence, passed, and had a scooter for a short time but realised she was a liability and gave up. We are both learning to kite-board currently and having to learn a new skill is SO hard. The slowing connections between the brain and muscles is just so obvious.
As was pointed out, the PERCENTAGE of older riders crashing is similar but I would agree the rusty skills ( weekend warriors) diminishing capabilities and that there are more old farts out there would account for much of the stats.

[russd7]

A very thoughtful post. Like Dangerous, at 65 my eyesight now is corrective lens dependent and night vision is crap. Possibly I have adjusted to this being the new normal but am very aware of my lack of youth/ reaction time. As one who " parks up" over the winter I took a Gold Course with Dan Love as my first outing this year, then proceeded to an Adventure ride on gravel. Now confident to take my wife for a spin but the impediments are causing a decided lack of enthusiasm overall. I watched Old Rider slow down and stop some years back and now am experiencing it myself.
Without the experience and muscle memory it would not be possible. My wife attempted to get a licence, passed, and had a scooter for a short time but realised she was a liability and gave up. We are both learning to kite-board currently and having to learn a new skill is SO hard. The slowing connections between the brain and muscles is just so obvious.
As was pointed out, the PERCENTAGE of older riders crashing is similar but I would agree the rusty skills ( weekend warriors) diminishing capabilities and that there are more old farts out there would account for much of the stats.

interesting thoughts, but here's something to consider, at speedway on Saturday and there is a 68yr old racing in two classes back to back and still very competitive, he was competing in solo B and classic solo, absolute legend in my mind, have also known riders who don't stop riding, they just adjust there riding style to suit,

[BMWST?]

i think the secret here is to keep riding...and often.And also do some excercise

[george formby]

i think the secret here is to keep riding...and often.And also do some excercise

Agree. More riding makes riding betterer.

Caveat. As we get on and abilities change we should be aware of this and adjust our riding accordingly, in whatever manner suits. Slower, shorter rides, change of company on the road, change of bike and so on.

I'm finding exercise and diet have a big impact. My riding is fine, diet is shit and exercise is sinful.

Sooooo, I'm riding more off road than on road. No way can I ride a 2t Enduro effectively if I have a curry and a few beers the night before. The old brain and body just can't cope, no energy. It's a good day for doing donuts on me ride on.

Riding my trials bike and enduro keep my control skills very sharp, give me a work out and improve concentration. This translates perfectly to my road riding. Reactions, anticipation and control are better, which keep me reasonably confident and enjoying the ride.

Any riding is better than no riding. Playing on dirt bikes, particularly the trials bike, is like a gym membership and having Nadia Lim on speed dial.

[KezzaCFC]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/110368657/motorcyclist-dies-after-crash-in-bombay-south-of-auckland

Another one :(. Can't comment on the cause, but devastating all the same

[SaferRides]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/110368657/motorcyclist-dies-after-crash-in-bombay-south-of-auckland

Another one :(. Can't comment on the cause, but devastating all the sameIt's a busy road now. Improvements are long overdue.

[dangerous]

... this has been on my mind a bit of late, more so the last week with the 2nd funeral of a friend on Saturday, earlier in the year was a very dear friend at 49yrs old, hers was avery freak acco... last week a van turned in front of a friend... 48yrs...
Now Im 50 and I know I have passed my "best by date" shit im not so agile or fit, Im now blind in one eye the others struggling... I struggle to concentrate like I used to I know all this but cant slow down... why?
Are we older riders loosing it due to age... or are we loosing it due to being to long in the tooth ie to complacent?

I want to hear from the same age and older riders that may not ride much these days... ststs show the older generation are dieing... why???

well... its now 3 in a year, all around 50yrs old... the latest being a fucking good bastard of a mate Mike on his KTM690 returning home from the Brass. (yes I know that was a month ago but couldn't be bothered talking bout it till now.

Now, I have taken on board the comments re current time in the saddle over total time in the saddle, ie ive been riding since 15 now over 50 on the road and the track and around the world... but these dys my riding hours are minimal, still as many rallys as I can fit in but still way down on the good oll days.
So I think there is a lot of merit in keeping the brain and mussles in a decent riding state of fitness....

How ever we must remember the basics, in Mikes case he was proberly following a tad to close as he colected the bikes in frount which sent him into a oncoming cage... ALTHO it was caused by a tourist near stopping on a bridge in a 100km zone to take a fucking photo of a river take care aging riders... take fucking care...

[russd7]

well... its now 3 in a year, all around 50yrs old... the latest being a fucking good bastard of a mate Mike on his KTM690 returning home from the Brass. (yes I know that was a month ago but couldn't be bothered talking bout it till now.

Now, I have taken on board the comments re current time in the saddle over total time in the saddle, ie ive been riding since 15 now over 50 on the road and the track and around the world... but these dys my riding hours are minimal, still as many rallys as I can fit in but still way down on the good oll days.
So I think there is a lot of merit in keeping the brain and mussles in a decent riding state of fitness....

How ever we must remember the basics, in Mikes case he was proberly following a tad to close as he colected the bikes in frount which sent him into a oncoming cage... ALTHO it was caused by a tourist near stopping on a bridge in a 100km zone to take a fucking photo of a river take care aging riders... take fucking care...

to be fair, I have not done much riding and im getting grumpier by the day, life gets in the way some times. I have changed my riding style a little, I don't go as fast as I used to and I don't tend to follow as close as I used to but I still ride my own ride.

not good to hear about your mate, I gotta admit I was worried when I heard about it at the time as I had quite a few friends that would have been in the area at the time.
never good to hear of a bike accident.

[caseye]

Shitty luck dangerous, bloody shitty luck. When it's not something of your doing or within your control, you are somewhat in the hands of the Gods.
4 months ago I sold my beloved Low K's,2009,1250 Bandy Bandit.About 3 years ago I started looking for another bike, she and I were going to end up under something, reaction times not so good, all other functions OK, but not as sharp as before.
So, hey I bought a 2016 Africa Twin with DCT Transmission.
Started my riding on mates farms, moved on to my sisters boyfriends road bikes, wrung their necks off, then finally bought a 110 Nonda and got going on the road for real, many years ago.
Got up to an 850 Suzi with Yoshi everything, this machine was raced by an army officer and was only for sale cause he was off overseas to a posting, what a machine. Rode that bike till I was absolutely comfortable with it's every nuance, could and DID beat pretty much anyone who tried.
Got kids and a house, sold her! 17 years later I got an old Jam jar, (Still got the ol coal burner, another 17 odd years later)
Progressed to the bandit, ridden her for nearly 8 years.
Got the Twin 4 months ago, done nothing but weekend rides with wifey (who has now ridden for over 10 years herelf) and so far clocked up over 7000k's, no drama's, done some metal, done alot of windy stuff and some open flat out stuff, haven't once felt the need or the inclination to go, fast.
Loved every minute of riding a comfortable (oh so comfy) not small, not too slow, heavy (for a trail bike as wifey calls it) automatic motorcycle, cant begin to to describe the shit eating grin when I look back to see the sprot bike still weaving off the line while I'm already at the next set of lights/intersection."
Nowadays I keep and actively maintain a good gap, if others push in or come too close I let em know and I actively push em back, works!
Anticipation is as good as ever and it's that over slower reflex's, reaction times etc that I beleive is keeping wifey and I , as safe as we can be.
Thankfully we've both got our health and we're not far off being able to say fuck you world, and simply go off and do our own thing, bikes of course are in the mix.
Nex thing is , ride safe courses (wifey's done Bronze, not me yet)and perhaps IAM, thinking about that one, I like how if you want to get properly involved, you can.
Don't give it up unless you absoultely have to, is my advice.
On a brighter note, through KB and the many bike groups I've been associated with I've ridden with many older(20+years on me) guys and girls who still absolutely love what they're still doing.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

[QUOTE=caseye;1131137316]Shitty luck dangerous, bloody shitty luck.
yes I also offer my condolences, I've lost a good mate to measures that were out of his control, I've also had a couple of crashes over the last couple of years, I'm 52 this year, my eyesights not what it used to be, it's slower to flick focus from one thing to another, I don't need glasses yet, but close up reading is getting harder, I dropt my roadbike on some fine gravel spread across the road by a farmer crossing back /forth on a cnr, very minor accident, I fixed the damage to bike, just scuffed my knee.
then in December last year I got high sided off my xr650 on onto tarseal at 80kph ( hot tar) broke my scapula, wrenched shoulder, and worst broke two screws holding my wrist together, started thinking I was losing it, but it was dumb luck and riding abit too fast for the shitty knobbly i had on the back - lesson learned.
I reassured myself by having ago at something different,
I entered a hillclimb event, had a great time , but also restored a level of confidence in my riding ability.
I realise I need more training as I get older, as if you don't use em' you lose em' , mostly I've previously used my trailbike for retraining the handling skills, but on the road I try by playing a game "what if?" I imagine a scenario happening ahead, then take evasive action , while I have the road to myself of course, plus the obligatory brake testing when fitting new tyres, or making other changes to my bikes, I'm also aware my reactive reactions aren't as nimble as they once were, training helps with that, but I also don't push it as hard out as I used too, just seems to hurt more and take longer to heal these days, so have to ride smarter

[R650R]

Something to consider… rider was having trouble with left turns, turned out he’d had a stroke in past. Now we have such great medical treatment people recover from these a bit more. Keep an eye on your mates if they’ve been through that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4T4nliP448

[wetanz]

used to ride sidecars (and solo) all over europe, had a mate-debilitating muscular atrophy problem-couldnt walk anymore-he built a sidecar too, we rode all over europe to meets like egt in luxemburg, elephantentreff in austria, other events thru eastern europe, gespanncross events (quite an active scene) - had to help him on and off his bike, organise his wheelchair, help with his pissbag etc - wasnt always 'nice' for me, but you gotta give the man respect - he knew things were only going to get worse so made the most of it while he could - rode mostly landesstrassen, autobaehne and endless lines of trucks can be intimidating - gotta be hard when ya body dont keep up with the mind like that - where do you draw the line

[MacPhone]

Motorcycle Riding Survival Tips

Motorcycles usually need your help to kill you. Don’t comply.

I've been riding motorcycles since age 19 - apart from a 10 year hiatus when my kids were young - after which i bought a superb touring Honda (1997). After 60,000km touring on it, I had a near-fatal highside at age 56 (2007). It should have killed me, and it didn't. I learned two new lessons which I wanted to pass on to my riding friends. Those were to do with our passing technique, and the danger of deadlines. I wrote and distributed a detailed analysis of the causes of the accident - called The Pies of Life. I thought I knew it all. My shoulder took three years to heal well enough to ride again.

Now, 15 years later, I've toured a further 100,000km, in NZ, North America, and Australia. I now value getting there alive more than I value getting there fast. There are many articles on gear, bike prep, and courses on rider skill (especially cornering and braking), and some of them have been helpful for keeping me alive and riding.

Soon after I bought my big Honda, I was told that the best way of avoiding an accident is to "NOT be there at the TIME". Then, in 1996, I thought that the advice was so obvious that it was trite and irrelevant to me. I've since come to understand that it is profound advice, and useful on many levels, especially in planning, preparation, and when riding.

Hence the following survival tips. Of course you need good gear, a roadworthy bike, and as much skill as you can muster. You already know that. These tips are what I have concluded during thousands of hours riding since 2007. You might already know some of them. Good. Pick the ones you don't know yet.

I've grouped them into three categories; Potentially Fatal Assumptions, Hazards to Consider, and Your Behaviour (including Dos, and Don'ts)

Potentially Fatal Assumptions:

"The road is clear, and will stay clear." This is assumed by all of us when we follow close behind a truck, go around a blind corner, ride with a fogged visor, ride at night, ride while admiring the scenery, and so on. The assumption is based on hope, not evidence. Any piece of road that you are about to travel over without first inspecting it is in UNKNOWN condition, with UNKNOWN obstacles. This assumption nearly killed me.

"Other drivers will behave as I expect them to." The assumption is easily and often demonstrated to be false, most of the time. We share road space with all types. Drivers who bought their licence, who have no licence, who are superb and courteous drivers, who became incapable of driving safely decades ago, or who are too drunk or doped to be competent or predictable. All of them can, in a second, become capable of killing you. They don't WANT to do that - they are merely indifferent beforehand.. It's up to YOU to deny them the opportunity. "DON'T BE THERE AT THE TIME" Observe their behaviour carefully when following, and let them pass if they are too close in the mirrors. It’s MUCH better to have an erratic driver in front or you. You regain control of his ability to kill you.

"There will be no negative surprises." Bridges will be intact, road will be clear of oil, pillion won't lean the wrong way or dig you in the ribs on a corner, bees won't get in your collar, trees will stay off the road, front tyre will not blowout. You will not misread a corner, and brake, instead of digging deeper. (This is VERY counter intuitive. Practice it when it’s safe to do so.)

"Your skill will save you." You reckon you are an experienced rider, and skilled. You subconsciously reckon, "If I get into trouble, my skill is enough to get me out of it safely....." It might work. Or, you might get lucky. Or, not. Ego and arrogance are hazardous when you're riding. Control them both. Even better, leave them both at home.

Hazards:
Road
Surface – 100% asphalt? Slick spots? Hot spots? White lines?
Obstacles – boxes, possums, lumber, stopped car, no lights, empty cartons, full cartons.
Adhesion – can i see diesel in that shady corner?
On Road
Commuters, still sleepy, bored, telephone, makeup, coffee
Urban delivery drivers - usually in a hurry, and prepared to risk collisions.
Males <50y in company utes. Their progress "is more important than yours".
Tail gaters. Let them pass (safely). Better in front of you where you can control your distance from them.
Insecure loads: tradies wheelbarrows, DIYers bringing sheets of ply or roofing home.
Vehicles beside you on the motorway. Ride where there are gaps both sides. You might need them.
Roadside
Stock, dogs
kids playing
pedestrians
parked vehicles (opening doors, pulling out)
Farm driveways on RHS - Don't pass. Could be a teenager on a quad bike coming out, only looks right for traffic, and turns left into you head-on.
Cyclists
Armco and egg-slicer median wires
Your bike
maintenance (tyres, tubes, frame integrity and brakes should be impeccable)
blow-out risk minimised (especially the front - you will almost certainly lose control)
treat petrol with respect. Do not ride with a petrol leak. Have an escape route at the petrol pump.
minimise bee sting risk
teach pillion how to lean with the bike, and how to communicate with you, and when not to.
Self Stay off the bike, or stop and wait, if you are:
Fatigued
Tired
Angry
Thirsty
Upset
Cold
Hot
Dehydrated
Daydreaming
Late (stop, advise the person you are meeting your new (conservative) ETA)
Fellow Riders
Some of them will be loose cannons. Find out which, and keep them in front, at a distance. Don'r ride close to them, and make better choices of future fellow riders.


Weather
Stay aware of the sky and forecasts
Don't plan to ride in rain, hail, snow, ice. Take care not to be the highest local lightning rod. Slow down in strong crosswinds. Anticipate and avoid sunstrike and vizor fogging. (The western side of the Whangamoas can have serious sunstrike just before sunset.)

Your behaviour:
Behaviours to practise, and get good at:

Plan your pass.
Choose whether and when to do it. Keep 4 seconds back, check clear road ahead. Decide when to pass. Check you are not already being overtaken by a follower. Execute it; move right, THEN accelerate. NOT BOTH AT ONCE. Get 1 or 2 seconds ahead, check passed vehicle in left mirror, and move back left. At all times during the pass, be prepared to brake hard and duck back in behind the vehicle being passed.

Check fellow riders' habits and behaviour. Ensure they do not add risk to you. If they do, and choose not to improve their behaviour, just say you'll catch up with them later, and ride well behind them for the rest of the trip. Choose better next time.

If you do not continuously inspect the 5 seconds of road you are about to use, it is only a matter of time until it will surprise you, and maybe kill you. You are choosing to ride over it. Every second you choose to continue, you put your life in its hands if you don't inspect. If it nearly kills you, don't complain that it "happened to you". You chose to relinquish control of your future.

Remember, the best way to avoid an accident is to NOT BE THERE AT THE TIME. Observe, anticipate, preserve your buffers. Stay 4 seconds back from the vehicle in front (6 seconds in the wet) and INSPECT your path. Leave room (and time) for surprises, errors, and idiots. Those buffers are your primary control points to stop others killing you. Your riding attitude and skills are your primary control points to stop you killing yourself.

Behaviours to avoid:

DON'T plan to ride:
- in the dark
- in rain, snow, hail, or ice (less than 4C say)
- to a deadline
- more than (say) 6 hours or 500km per day (reduce as necessary, for weather, conditions, and age)
- with a pillion or fellow rider(s) you don't know and trust
- without adequate gear
- to and from work
- amongst commuters
- on freeways in or near cities (especially during rush hour)
- if bike is faulty or suspect (especially brakes or tyres)
- without headlight on
- without pre-start walk around bike including kicking the tyres to check for overnight flat

Don't start (or continue) riding while ....daydreaming, tired, cold, hot, upset, angry, worried, or embarrassed. Your survival depends on your full attention, buffers, and skill. Your entire focus needs to stay on the road, and potential hazards.

......”Don’t get off till you get there......”

FWIW. Feb 2024. 73 now. How much longer???? Do I wait for non-fatal fright?

[F5 Dave]

So you missed from 1998 to 1997 when bikes (and tyres) got really good . That's a shame but you only recompense is to not make the same misgiving. That may mean a lighter bike when you start to feel the weight. But if you can ride,, don't put it off.

I do agree with most of your advice. I really do. But the rain in nz happens, don't be afraid of it.

[Berries]

Yeah, some good advice in there that some of us have picked up from years of riding until you get to the Don't bit at the end. The only one of those I agree with is the pillion and that is because after riding since the late 1980's I have only taken one person on the back once. I simply don't want to have to deal with explaining things if we get taken out, I mess up or shit just happens.

If you don't ride in the dark or the rain you are missing out on some great riding experiences and to be honest if you try and avoid those conditions you are going to come a cropper when you eventually and inevitably get caught out one day. As F5 says, this is New Zealand.

One point - you want to be looking far further ahead than five seconds, especially if you are suggesting leaving a four second gap before overtaking someone.

After attending and reporting on over 200 fatal crashes in the last 20 years, including quite a few two wheelers, my survival advice for the reader is a somewhat shorter list -

1. Don't be a dickhead. That means don't ride drunk and remember there is a time and a place for giving it laldy and it is not everywhere all the time.
2. Ride like your life depends on it. This one accounts for all the other dickheads on the road.

[nerrrd]

Almost all of my riding would come under the 'DON'T' list.

No serious accidents so far touch wood, a few close calls. I seem to be able to ride defensively enough in Auckland traffic to avoid the worst.

A tip I would add is don't ride in blind spots or in places where drivers don't expect you to be, unless you have a way out.

Also I know top boxes are uncool, but I have one with a (fading) hi-vis lid and an auxiliary brake light much closer to the average car-driver's eye-line, which might help in traffic.

[pete376403]

I would add to the list of things to be aware of - beware of car drivers wearing hats. No rational explanation for this but it seems just about every bit of car-driving dickheadedness has been a hat-wearer. Going to bowls or golf, returnng from bowls or golf (via the bar), young twats with caps on backwards, turbans, hijabs, whatever. The common denominator seems to be a head covering

[wetanz]

... if you dont ride in the rain or dark you shouldnt be riding - fairweather riders, fairweather sailers, fairweather friends, you dont need 'em

... finding your limits means pushing boundaries - you fall off, you and your bike get hurt - get up, get back on your horse or go home

... you need to understand your bikes - how they work, balance, how you effect your bikes and how they effect you - learn how to shit your pants-gracefully

... there are idiots - they die, sometimes unfortunately they take others with them

... if youve riden long enough you collect dead friends - many unlucky - if you dont learn to read the road AND think for others you will get hurt - if youre lucky - and this means long-vision, reading driveways, paths, children, animals, intersections, oncoming traffic, traffic in your direction, laneswappers, rearvision mirrors, spidey-senses ... just to start ... making multiple splitsecond decisions and reactions every instant of every ride - its all about flow, you become zenned into it, lose sense of time (more like time slows down) ... driving cages on-road is simply boring

... i have a personal dont - PILLION - neither as rider nor passenger

oh, and as for hats - damn right - stay away from them (prefer the word hat here, technically a helmet is a head-covering)

[neels]

Most of that is generally good advice.

Personally I work on the basis of always looking for the what-ifs, assume others on the road are about to do something stupid, and trying not to do something stupid myself. I'll get there when I get there, if you're faster or slower all good you do your thing and I'll see you at the next stop.

There's a few things on the Don't list that I would consider a bit over restrictive - sometimes to get where you are going it will involve riding in the dark/rain/traffic, I have no problem with a competent pillion (best impression of a sack of spuds strapped on the back), and the work commute is far less tedious on the little bike.

But mostly it comes down to a couple of things, ride on the road like you're in the drivers seat of a car, and assume everyone else on the road is about to do something that can kill you.

[Berries]

. ... finding your limits means pushing boundaries - you fall off, you and your bike get hurt - get up, get back on your horse or go home
Or die.

Find your limits and fall off on the track by all means. Do it on the road and you are just lining up to be another smear.

[caseye]

Or die.

Find your limits and fall off on the track by all means. Do it on the road and you are just lining up to be another smear.

Yep Black berry jam, Everywhere!:jerry:

[Berries]

I was trying so hard not to sound like Katman.

[F5 Dave]

Try harder.
Although He was more of a brown smear.

[SPman]

Well, I got back on the bikes 4 months ago - hadn't ridden in almost 2 years - when the missus got ill and couldn't ride anymore, I wouldn't ride because it would not have been fair to her - riding was a large part of her life and reason for being. After she died end of last year, I decided I needed to do something to stay sane, and remembered what Marion said when her first marriage ended - "fuck the house and property, I got on the bike and rode everywhere, every weekend!" - so I decided it was time to see if I still "had it". A couple of cautious forays down to the local village on the XJR showed me, I was rusty as fuck, but the basic skills and reactions were still there! The main indicator was riding into the office, in the city (I work from home half the time)- 70km of country roads, but 25km of city riding, at school mum delivery time! Two runs in, once on the XJR and once on the FZ1 again pointed to basic skills still there, with a few mollifiers .... reactions a tad slower and balance a tad less stable - at least my depth and width perception was up to par, so lane splitting was still OK..... Four months on riding 3-500km a week, on a mix of bikes (there's also a Suzuki X7 there as well) and my overall skills are only just now starting to come up to expectations of near competency! Still a few quibbles with balance in lane splitting when tired - which is more a threat to SUV mirrors ... but, I think the main thing with riding, at any age, is currency. It's taken me 4 months to come up to a level I'd expect and regain a measure of fluidity - I think if I only rode on the occasional weekend, I'd still be dodgy, so I'll keep riding now as long and as often as possible - maybe downsize to something like a late model VFR800 (looking at a clean 2015 model) - the FZ1 is slightly tall, and I don't have the strength in my legs to catch it if it overbalances - an embarrassing fall over at a gas station showed this. The XJR - a comfy chair and old warhorse that'll always get you home - and fun to lane split on. And I need to watch speeds - the default 130kph I used to run at, doesn't go down well over here. Be able to read the road, read the traffic, over here, be super alert for hoppy things at various times of the day, and - keep riding. I'm 75 now - maybe I'll make 80 ...

[Blackbird]

I'm 75 now - maybe I'll make 80 ....

Good for you! I fully retired from riding at 75 due to a mix of reasons. It was partially because it had all got a bit ho-hum but mainly age-related. I'm on blood thinners because of the occasional bout of AF and bruise really easily. Hated to think of the consequences involved with even a minor drop. My knees were also buggered and ached over a moderate distance plus being a shortarse, holding the bike up whilst stationary if I got on a decent lean could be problematic. However, I had a complete knee replacement last September and I can now do stuff that I haven't been able to do for a while. The other knee is due for replacement later this year. It could be quite tempting to buy a lightweight bike with a low saddle height but with fall-back interests (sea fishing, e-mountain bike and a classic car), I don't really miss riding enough to get something else.

All the best for riding into your 80's and beyond.... :niceone:

[wetanz]

Or die.

Find your limits and fall off on the track by all means. Do it on the road and you are just lining up to be another smear.

glad i dont have to do your washing

[Blackbird]

Back in March 2024, (see post a couple earlier) I mentioned retiring from riding at 75 after a tad under 60 years on 2 wheels. Part of the reason was I'd pretty much done all I wanted to do but the consequences of a future accident on an ageing body was starting to bother me, particularly the potential impact on family. My fall-back interests were classic cars, sea fishing, mountain biking and travel which kept me pretty busy. I'd had my worn-out knees fixed and things were looking pretty rosy, but for one thing.

Mountain biking on the Coromandel Peninsula where we live is awesome but even a moderate "off" is going to hurt an old body. 2 weeks ago, I crashed on a quite technical trail. Wasn't going very fast at all but the impact was sufficient to snap my right femur just under the hip ball. Getting me off the trail and spending a few days in Waikato hospital in a hell of a lot of pain while they fixed me up made me realise that I hadn't totally thought my fall-back plans through properly about where to bike and risk mitigation. I've agreed with my wife that I can still ride a mountain bike after rehab but will avoid goat tracks in future. The full story and a few photos are here: https://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2024/12/when-things-turn-to-custard.html .

So now it's reasonably level gravel trails for cycling plus classic cars and sea fishing as the major replacements for motorcycling. I think I can live with that ok.

Cheers and all the best for 2025,

Geoff

[SaferRides]

Sorry to hear that, I hope you make a full recovery. Yours is not the first e-bike crash I've heard of recently, and they usually seem to result in broken bones. Must be costing ACC quite a bit!



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[Blackbird]

Sorry to hear that, I hope you make a full recovery. Yours is not the first e-bike crash I've heard of recently, and they usually seem to result in broken bones. Must be costing ACC quite a bit!



Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

Thanks SR! I guess one of the the things with an e-MTB is that allows old farts like me access to places we couldn't manage with an ordinary MTB. That potentially increases the risk straight away. The irony is that I've ridden that trail multiple times without mishap but all the factors combined to get me this time.

I'll freely admit that at 77, an accident is likely to have consequences. Much as I love the Medlock Trail, I'll stay off it for the sake of matrimonial harmony. Jennie has had to do all the domestic stuff we normally share so I'll do something special for her once I'm fully mobile :2thumbsup

[pete376403]

Sorry to hear that, I hope you make a full recovery. Yours is not the first e-bike crash I've heard of recently, and they usually seem to result in broken bones. Must be costing ACC quite a bit!
Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

So you would probably understand the angst felt by motorcyclists vis-a-vis the ever increasing ACC levys that pretty much only motorcyclists are expected to pay, even though expensive to fix injuries happen in multiple pastimes.

[F5 Dave]

Plenty of people fall off ladders. Feel no shame. I hope I can at least get out and ride in some form at 77.

[roogazza]

First ride for 2025 next week (and second for the new knee )....
Hope the weather behaves ??? :banana::lol:

Happy New Year Team.....

[Jantar]

Back in March 2024, (see post a couple earlier) I mentioned retiring from riding at 75 after a tad under 60 years on 2 wheels. Part of the reason was I'd pretty much done all I wanted to do but the consequences of a future accident on an ageing body was starting to bother me, particularly the potential impact on family. My fall-back interests were classic cars, sea fishing, mountain biking and travel which kept me pretty busy. I'd had my worn-out knees fixed and things were looking pretty rosy, but for one thing.

Mountain biking on the Coromandel Peninsula where we live is awesome but even a moderate "off" is going to hurt an old body. 2 weeks ago, I crashed on a quite technical trail. Wasn't going very fast at all but the impact was sufficient to snap my right femur just under the hip ball. Getting me off the trail and spending a few days in Waikato hospital in a hell of a lot of pain while they fixed me up made me realise that I hadn't totally thought my fall-back plans through properly about where to bike and risk mitigation. I've agreed with my wife that I can still ride a mountain bike after rehab but will avoid goat tracks in future. The full story and a few photos are here: https://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2024/12/when-things-turn-to-custard.html .

So now it's reasonably level gravel trails for cycling plus classic cars and sea fishing as the major replacements for motorcycling. I think I can live with that ok.

Cheers and all the best for 2025,

Geoff

I missed seeing this post earlier Geoff. So sorry to read about your injury. Even worse when I am taking a break from planning the TT2000 ride, and about to head off on my e-MTB on the top track into Picton. I hope you heal up OK.

[Blackbird]

I missed seeing this post earlier Geoff. So sorry to read about your injury. Even worse when I am taking a break from planning the TT2000 ride, and about to head off on my e-MTB on the top track into Picton. I hope you heal up OK.

Thanks Malcolm :not: Saw the doc today and he was surprised how quickly I've recovered. Should be able to ditch my single crutch in the next few days. I'm using the static bike but it might be a couple of weeks or so before I'm back on the e-MTB. There would be a divorce if I screw up again!

No bad thing to take a break from a long term passion, especially to plan for a bit of continuity. Have a fantastic ride - a wonderful area for it. Love to you and Paulette.
G

[Swoop]

Thanks Malcolm :not: Saw the doc today and he was surprised how quickly I've recovered. Should be able to ditch my single crutch in the next few days. I'm using the static bike but it might be a couple of weeks or so before I'm back on the e-MTB. There would be a divorce if I screw up again! G

Sorry to hear about this Geoff. Hopefully back to decent health quickly!
Mountain bikes have always been one of NZ's more dangerous pastimes going by ACC stats...
Take care buddy!

[Blackbird]

Sorry to hear about this Geoff. Hopefully back to decent health quickly!
Mountain bikes have always been one of NZ's more dangerous pastimes going by ACC stats...
Take care buddy!

Hi Swoop - long time no hear! Hope you're well. Thanks for the good wishes. Yeah, my bad for not taking time to dial into a challenging route - completely stupid after all my motorcycle riding experience. Had a blood test this week and I'm quite anaemic with a high white blood cell count of which the doc says is relatively common after significant surgery. Pea protein smoothies followed by Guinness I reckon for the next few weeks. Gradually coming to the conclusion that I'll have to take it a bit easier :confused:

[SaferRides]

Gradually coming to the conclusion that I'll have to take it a bit easier :confused:
I'm coming to the same conclusion, but finding it difficult to put into practice!



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[Blackbird]

I'm coming to the same conclusion, but finding it difficult to put into practice!

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........ Exactly why I stuffed up with the MTB. A bit more self-awareness won't go amiss, plus actually listen to what my wife and adult kids are saying :(