Uber Uber Uber Alles

[Voltaire]

The good news if your Uber India

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/04/uber-india-tops-1point6-billion-in-annual-bookings-according-to-email.html

The not so good news if your an Uber India driver

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/dec/04/my-life-is-spent-in-this-car-uber-drives-indian-workers-to-despair

Why care?

This is how the 'sharing' economy works.

Next time your getting your cheap ride home spare a thought for how the system works.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I have been on a Uber ride. It was wonderful. An absolutely gorgeous French woman called Marie, in a nice little car. I'll never do another because I will get some fucktard and spoil my average

[BMWST?]

i dont do uber in NZ.In NZ i drive,ride walk bus or very occasionally a std taxi.IN Melbourne I sometime Uber courtesy of the daughter.In 2 uber rides 1 was good and 1 was not.

[Woodman]

Uber great. Used them several times overseas. Even when pissed, as long as you can focus on your phone the rest of the ride is easy.

[Voltaire]

Good stuff, nothing like contributing to the low wage economy and helping the 1% achieve their goals :2thumbsup.

[F5 Dave]

Now it is nineteen eighty-four
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the suede denim secret police
They have come for your uncool niece
Come quietly to the camp
You'd look nice as a drawstring lamp
Don't you worry, it's only a shower
For your clothes, here's a pretty flower
Die on organic poison gas
Serpent's egg's already hatched
You will croak, you little clown
When you mess with President Brown
When you mess with President Brown
California Über Alles
California Über Alles
Über Alles California
Über Alles Californi

[Voltaire]

So called Gig Economy is a crock.

Another way of having people at your beck and call without any certainty.

Delivering food and driving drunks around is not being self employed.

[HenryDorsetCase]

So called Gig Economy is a crock.

Another way of having people at your beck and call without any certainty.

Delivering food and driving drunks around is not being self employed.

absolutely agree with this.

[nerrrd]

So called Gig Economy is a crock.

Another way of having people at your beck and call without any certainty.

Delivering food and driving drunks around is not being self employed.

Don't forgot the much lauded 'disruptors' who came up with these brilliant 'innovations' making all that lovely money out of them.

[TheDemonLord]

Don't forgot the much lauded 'disruptors' who came up with these brilliant 'innovations' making all that lovely money out of them.

So, someone uses technology in a new way, to compete with more traditional business models, to provide something that people clearly want to use.

And somehow, it's the person that came up with the idea that's the bad guy, not the people who want to use the service....

[Voltaire]

So, someone uses technology in a new way, to compete with more traditional business models, to provide something that people clearly want to use.

And somehow, it's the person that came up with the idea that's the bad guy, not the people who want to use the service....

Did you read the two articles at the beginning of the thread?:rolleyes:

[TheDemonLord]

Did you read the two articles at the beginning of the thread?:rolleyes:

Articles?

You mean a bunch of Whining about how dare other people be more Successful than the Author?

[Voltaire]

Articles?

You mean a bunch of Whining about how dare other people be more Successful than the Author?

Nevermind....:facepalm:

[TheDemonLord]

Nevermind....:facepalm:

You cited the Guardian as a Source - May as well be the Comintern...

And if you brush aside all the 'Woe is the poor oppressed Worker' nonsense - There are several key points to consider:

1: When starting up, they offered incentives to Drivers to work for Uber - as the service requires a critical mass of drivers to work - People made life choices based on the expectation that these incentives would continue in-perpetuity. If Uber can be accused of anything (and anything printed by the Guardian should be treated as suspect) - it's that it should have been clearer that the incentive scheme would not continue indefinitely.

2: Some Drivers in their Haste to work for Uber, bought new cars, with loans they cannot afford. The article points out that they 'can't' sell the cars, because the sale price won't clear the Loan, however, responsible people have a phrase for that - it's called 'Taking a Loss'.

As an aside, they left worse paying Jobs and despite having to work the extra hours, they are still in possession of a Vehicle - a Luxury item (which previously they did not have), so they are still in a better financial position than when they started.

3: The article points out that the rates Uber charge passengers in India was initially higher, but is now on par with other forms of hired Transport - it's almost like there is an accepted Market Rate that Indians are willing to pay for such a service.

[Voltaire]

You cited the Guardian as a Source - May as well be the Comintern...

And if you brush aside all the 'Woe is the poor oppressed Worker' nonsense - There are several key points to consider:

1: When starting up, they offered incentives to Drivers to work for Uber - as the service requires a critical mass of drivers to work - People made life choices based on the expectation that these incentives would continue in-perpetuity. If Uber can be accused of anything (and anything printed by the Guardian should be treated as suspect) - it's that it should have been clearer that the incentive scheme would not continue indefinitely.

2: Some Drivers in their Haste to work for Uber, bought new cars, with loans they cannot afford. The article points out that they 'can't' sell the cars, because the sale price won't clear the Loan, however, responsible people have a phrase for that - it's called 'Taking a Loss'.

As an aside, they left worse paying Jobs and despite having to work the extra hours, they are still in possession of a Vehicle - a Luxury item (which previously they did not have), so they are still in a better financial position than when they started.

3: The article points out that the rates Uber charge passengers in India was initially higher, but is now on par with other forms of hired Transport - it's almost like there is an accepted Market Rate that Indians are willing to pay for such a service.

Would you prefer the Sun or the Times?

One of the Security Guards who used to work at facility I'm at started with Uber and went out and bought a 'less than 4 years old car", got all his Police checks and Taxi licence.
He is from India and we had a few discussions on it.
How do you pay your tax?
What tax.
Have you told your insurance company your using the vehicle for commercial purposes?
What?
And so on.
He showed me the app he was using and the money going he was getting, good for an extra bit of pin money but to plan your life around not so much.

I'm certainly glad we don't have a Tory govt with the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, the likes of him make me want to put on my Yellow Vest.:laugh:

I dislike corporates especially the modern ones who pay even less tax and wages like Amazon,Uber, Facebook, Apple, and so on.

When your opening your Christmas presents spare a thought for the poor Chinese person on sub minimum wages working in Dickensian conditions.
Merry Xmas.

[pritch]

When your opening your Christmas presents spare a thought for the poor Chinese person on sub minimum wages working in Dickensian conditions.

Marginally closer to home, the poor bastards working at Amazon.

And yes, JRM is a piece of work.

[TheDemonLord]

Would you prefer the Sun or the Times?

One of the Security Guards who used to work at facility I'm at started with Uber and went out and bought a 'less than 4 years old car", got all his Police checks and Taxi licence.
He is from India and we had a few discussions on it.
How do you pay your tax?
What tax.
Have you told your insurance company your using the vehicle for commercial purposes?
What?
And so on.
He showed me the app he was using and the money going he was getting, good for an extra bit of pin money but to plan your life around not so much.

I'm certainly glad we don't have a Tory govt with the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, the likes of him make me want to put on my Yellow Vest.:laugh:

I dislike corporates especially the modern ones who pay even less tax and wages like Amazon,Uber, Facebook, Apple, and so on.

When your opening your Christmas presents spare a thought for the poor Chinese person on sub minimum wages working in Dickensian conditions.
Merry Xmas.

Can you point out exactly where Uber are to blame for this? If you're so heartbroken about the Poor Chinese, stop buying things at a discount price, pay for the full cost of a Product (but somehow, I doubt you will) - furthermore - considering what happened to China before they allowed a little bit of free Market Capitalism and where they are now - that 'Poor Chinese Person on sub Minimun wages' is still better off than the 'Dead Chinese person who starved to death'

And no surprise you're not a fan of JRM, I guess someone advocating for personal responsibility and personal liberty is Anathema to you...

[Ocean1]

So called Gig Economy is a crock.

Another way of having people at your beck and call without any certainty.

Delivering food and driving drunks around is not being self employed.

So who should be paying for that certainty?

There's just three places in the world you can get a superyacht built, one of them is Auckland. The industry here collapsed multiple times under traditional business models, having to pay for services during the majority of the time you don't need them simply isn't sustainable.

Now it's generating jobs that never existed, could never exist any other way. Try telling the owner of a marine upholstery business that he has to go back to working full time 40hrs a week for whatever the union and his boss decide he's worth.

Uber might very well be taking advantage of their subbies in India, but if so it's because they're arseholes, not because they're failing to pay minimum wage for 40hrs a week.

[nerrrd]

I don't know, if the company promoted being a full time driver as a valid career choice and backs that up with financial incentives while in 'start up' mode, before paring it all back and moving to 'sustainable' mode where it turns out to be more of a part time gig, isn't that a bit ethically questionable??

Unless your attitude is 'stupid people (i.e. those who took our claims at face value and didn't draw up a long term business plan before committing to provide our services) deserve what they get'?

There was that whole thing about those agents in India overselling education here in NZ a while back which seems like a similar deal and one I would be ashamed to be associated with.

Anyway Uber itself 'll be ok, looks like they're going public next year so more lovely money for them https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12173613

[Voltaire]

So who should be paying for that certainty?

There's just three places in the world you can get a superyacht built, one of them is Auckland. The industry here collapsed multiple times under traditional business models, having to pay for services during the majority of the time you don't need them simply isn't sustainable.

Now it's generating jobs that never existed, could never exist any other way. Try telling the owner of a marine upholstery business that he has to go back to working full time 40hrs a week for whatever the union and his boss decide he's worth.

Uber might very well be taking advantage of their subbies in India, but if so it's because they're arseholes, not because they're failing to pay minimum wage for 40hrs a week.

Helps to have some skills.
I've turned up in 3 countries over my working life with no contacts and its worked out. Helps to have a trade that's in demand.
I'm familiar with the Gig Economy as did temping as a Sparky for 2-3 years in the UK, been out of work for months there too.

If you work in a field thats powered by discretionary spending expect unstable working condtions.

I'm seeing a lot of jobs around me being exported at the moment, IT to India, Procurement to Bulgaria, Finance to China, helpdesk to the Philippines...if you can work remotely from home you job can be done from overseas ( well thats how the bean counters see it, in reality it doesn't really work).

[Ocean1]

Helps to have some skills.
I've turned up in 3 countries over my working life with no contacts and its worked out. Helps to have a trade that's in demand.
I'm familiar with the Gig Economy as did temping as a Sparky for 2-3 years in the UK, been out of work for months there too.

If you work in a field thats powered by discretionary spending expect unstable working condtions.

I'm seeing a lot of jobs around me being exported at the moment, IT to India, Procurement to Bulgaria, Finance to China, helpdesk to the Philippines...if you can work remotely from home you job can be done from overseas ( well thats how the bean counters see it, in reality it doesn't really work).

None of which is a valid argument against alternative employment models.

When you burden employers with all of the risks and costs associated with employment they can't do anything other than pass that on to the customer. If that risk, including the requirement to pay employees whether they're generating income or not, and the ever increasing compliance costs, and the ever increasing holiday pay, ACC levies etc etc stc then you eventually reach the point where the cost of supplying that service exceeds what customers are willing to pay. Customers disappear, companies disappear, jobs disappear and everything turns to shit. All because we insist that employment should be a certain shape, with associated costs customers simply won't pay for.

You can't protect people from the consequences of their own choices, it has never been the case that you didn't have to worry about your choice of career. If you don't want to compete with employees in third world countries, with third world pay, third world safety standards and third world conditions then you should probably consider that when you choose how you're going to work, rather than blame "the system" for failing to protect you from the consequences of those choices.

[Voltaire]

None of which is a valid argument against alternative employment models.

When you burden employers with all of the risks and costs associated with employment they can't do anything other than pass that on to the customer. If that risk, including the requirement to pay employees whether they're generating income or not, and the ever increasing compliance costs, and the ever increasing holiday pay, ACC levies etc etc stc then you eventually reach the point where the cost of supplying that service exceeds what customers are willing to pay. Customers disappear, companies disappear, jobs disappear and everything turns to shit. All because we insist that employment should be a certain shape, with associated costs customers simply won't pay for.

You can't protect people from the consequences of their own choices, it has never been the case that you didn't have to worry about your choice of career. If you don't want to compete with employees in third world countries, with third world pay, third world safety standards and third world conditions then you should probably consider that when you choose how you're going to work, rather than blame "the system" for failing to protect you from the consequences of those choices.

I get all that running a company stuff as I spend most of my time doing compliance, H and S, admin etc...as a mere employee.
The Company that I work for contracts to a a company that has only seen 2 good quarters in the last 8 years.
Also on the wrong end of the demographic ledger. There have been some pre Xmas Upper Management layoffs.

Could well be driving for Uber in a couple of years :lol:

Be interesting to see what happens when Uber do their IPO.

[Woodman]

I get all that running a company stuff as I spend most of my time doing compliance, H and S, admin etc...as a mere employee.
The Company that I work for contracts to a a company that has only seen 2 good quarters in the last 8 years.
Also on the wrong end of the demographic ledger. There have been some pre Xmas Upper Management layoffs.

Could well be driving for Uber in a couple of years :lol:

Be interesting to see what happens when Uber do their IPO.

The only way forward is mashmans theories. It is sorta heading that way anyway but in a painful way. And mashman , I mean this sincerely.

[Voltaire]

On the subject of yachting.

Govt Finds 40 Million for it.

Where was it, in the couch?

Cool, on top of the 98M the lovely rate payers are chipping in.:laugh:

Wonder where it was when they closed the Bucket/kart track recently.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/03/28/100737/government-finds-40-million-for-team-nz

[Ocean1]

I get all that running a company stuff as I spend most of my time doing compliance, H and S, admin etc...as a mere employee.
The Company that I work for contracts to a a company that has only seen 2 good quarters in the last 8 years.
Also on the wrong end of the demographic ledger. There have been some pre Xmas Upper Management layoffs.

Could well be driving for Uber in a couple of years :lol:

Be interesting to see what happens when Uber do their IPO.

I don't think you really "get" running a small company until you find yourself working on your own through the holidays so you can afford to pay for your employees to have it off.

It focuses the mind wonderfully on who's got the better half of the deal I can assure you.

[mashman]

The only way forward is mashmans theories. It is sorta heading that way anyway but in a painful way. And mashman , I mean this sincerely.

It was always going to be painful. Imagine being the generation that's gonna have to tidy up the mess lol.


I don't think you really "get" running a small company until you find yourself working on your own through the holidays so you can afford to pay for your employees to have it off.

:killingme. Coz only running a small company will learn ya that experience.

[Woodman]

It was always going to be painful. Imagine being the generation that's gonna have to tidy up the mess lol.



:killingme. Coz only running a small company will learn ya that experience.
It won't be in our lifetime but things are changing. It's gonna get ugly though.

[RDJ]

You cited the Guardian as a Source

Yep. No need to read anything more. The Grauniad is reliably Stalinist. Right down to the - how many more do we need to send to the gulags? Well, get on with it then.

[mashman]

It won't be in our lifetime but things are changing. It's gonna get ugly though.

Maybe... although it may well be in the next year or two coz there's, however misguided, a feckload of people out there wanting change. Somewhat ironically, the new kids on the block want government to tell the truth about climate change and a few other things. Not sure why the current crop would do such a thing given that they haven't thus far, nor have they made noises in the direction of that which is being demanded, but anything's worth a try at this point I guess. It'll only get as ugly as people clinging on to their ignorance remain in decision making positions. Let's hope it doesn't follow the KB model :wari:

[Voltaire]

Maybe... although it may well be in the next year or two coz there's, however misguided, a feckload of people out there wanting change. Somewhat ironically, the new kids on the block want government to tell the truth about climate change and a few other things. Not sure why the current crop would do such a thing given that they haven't thus far, nor have they made noises in the direction of that which is being demanded, but anything's worth a try at this point I guess. It'll only get as ugly as people clinging on to their ignorance remain in decision making positions. Let's hope it doesn't follow the KB model :wari:



They are probably bored with the trinkets that Facebook and Apple are selling.
KB is more into exhaust wrap and brown seats.

There was an article in the Guardian saying all rich people and TDL should be sent to the Gulags, probably in response to the one in the Times saying all immigrants are lazy and we need to keep them out as they are taking hard working English peoples jobs.:lol:

[Ocean1]

:killingme. Coz only running a small company will learn ya that experience.

Correct...

[mashman]

They are probably bored with the trinkets that Facebook and Apple are selling.
KB is more into exhaust wrap and brown seats.

There was an article in the Guardian saying all rich people and TDL should be sent to the Gulags, probably in response to the one in the Times saying all immigrants are lazy and we need to keep them out as they are taking hard working English peoples jobs.:lol:

Mebees, but they seem more into this climate thing and want it reversed by existing governments, which I guess would also solve any facebook n apple issues that stir deep within their loins.
See, that's exactly what I mean. Brown seats. Insanity.

Dammit! I was all anti-gulag and then you went and mentioned TDL. So confused.

[mashman]

Correct...

Remove the "only" from yer ignorant statement and you have a point. Perhaps you should have spent more time at home with your family, as you might have witnessed it there too. Then again, at least your au pair will have that understanding and will have hopefully enlightened your children as to such along the way.

[TheDemonLord]

Dammit! I was all anti-gulag and then you went and mentioned TDL. So confused.

If you had any principles, you wouldn't be confused.

But then, closet Marxists do love to send people they disagree with to the Gulag, so it's good to see you are following your doctrine to the letter.

[TheDemonLord]

There was an article in the Guardian saying all rich people and TDL should be sent to the Gulags, probably in response to the one in the Times saying all immigrants are lazy and we need to keep them out as they are taking hard working English peoples jobs.:lol:

It should be a bit of a hint when your attempt at satire mirrors the historical actions of your ideology....

As for the Times article - it's quite simple: Supply and Demand, if you double or triple the supply for something (lets say 'Unskilled jobs') then the price for each job goes down. If you set a minimum price for the product, then you create a surplus - there are more people than there are jobs.

Net result, a Rise in unemployment and wages stay static.

Lazy has nothing to do with it.

But then, I don't expect a Guardian reader to understand either Economics or History.

[Voltaire]

It should be a bit of a hint when your attempt at satire mirrors the historical actions of your ideology....

As for the Times article - it's quite simple: Supply and Demand, if you double or triple the supply for something (lets say 'Unskilled jobs') then the price for each job goes down. If you set a minimum price for the product, then you create a surplus - there are more people than there are jobs.

Net result, a Rise in unemployment and wages stay static.

Lazy has nothing to do with it.

But then, I don't expect a Guardian reader to understand either Economics or History.

I imagine there is quite a lot you don't expect but feel free to blather on.

You can have the last word as it means a lot to you.

[Ocean1]

Remove the "only" from yer ignorant statement and you have a point. Perhaps you should have spent more time at home with your family, as you might have witnessed it there too. Then again, at least your au pair will have that understanding and will have hopefully enlightened your children as to such along the way.

My statement was not only completely devoid of the word "only", but was informed by expert observation at very close quarters.

So nowhere close to the ignorant drivel plainly apparent in your own subsequent comment, which, you'll no doubt be astonished to learn, did contain the word "only".

Now take your ignorant, content free drivel and go play on the motorway.

[pritch]

On the subject of yachting.

Govt Finds 40 Million for it.

Where was it, in the couch?



That's OK. It's not real money, it's only taxes. :rolleyes:

[Ocean1]

That's OK. It's not real money, it's only taxes. :rolleyes:

Just as long as the ROI is real money, if my meager investments were doing anywhere near as well as the returns on the last event I'd be a fucking happy camper, they were fucking outstanding.

But yeah, rich pricks, fuckem.

[mashman]

My statement was not only completely devoid of the word "only", but was informed by expert observation at very close quarters.

So nowhere close to the ignorant drivel plainly apparent in your own subsequent comment, which, you'll no doubt be astonished to learn, did contain the word "only".

Now take your ignorant, content free drivel and go play on the motorway.

You said:


Correct...

therefore agreed with the statement as I related it. That you feel the need to weasel your way out of it shows just how close to the bone I got. Kind of pathetic, but not unexpected in the slightest. Thanks for playing dear.

[Swoop]

There's just three places in the world you can get a superyacht built, one of them is Auckland.
Not any longer. Auckland's two superyacht yards closed down due to the high dollar and the "global recession".
There are many places around the world where one can have their superyacht built (Italy, Vietnam, USA, Holland, Germany, Spain, etc, etc) and their exchange rates are much better.

NZ now has a superyacht "service centre" for repairs and refits.

[Ocean1]

Not any longer. Auckland's two superyacht yards closed down due to the high dollar and the "global recession".
There are many places around the world where one can have their superyacht built (Italy, Vietnam, USA, Holland, Germany, Spain, etc, etc) and their exchange rates are much better.

NZ now has a superyacht "service centre" for repairs and refits.

I don't think many are built in just one place any more, the few I've noticed recently have been, (for example) constructed in Holland, fitted out in Italy and rigged and commissioned in NZ.

The fact remains, you can't run a large business servicing an intermittent demand with the traditional full time employee model, simply can't be done. One large project office and dozens of small flexible businesses can and has been done. So which is better, an ideolistic adherence to 40/52 employment and zero jobs, or a bunch of self motivated small businesses successfully providing exactly the same service?

I gota say the model doesn't fit every market well. For my particular shtick I liked to hold the core skills required for my projects somewhat more closely, but the flip side is the risk of under-utilisation with little room to maneuver and subsequent failure for all concerned.

[Swoop]

I don't think many are built in just one place any more
They would be the majority.
There are a "few" who pump out a hull and hand it onto another location/yard for fitting out, but the reality is keeping as much in-house as possible for QC reasons and also for profit.