kelford cams- gsxr1000 speedway camgrind- ? anyone used it ?

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Hi, I'm getting kelford to put this grind on some cams I'm putting in my gsx-s1000, I know they have been used plenty in speedway sidebars, anyone else had experience with them ?
I asked them for recommendations for a fast road grind, I.e a wide power and with plenty of torque, that is what they suggested, I've used a few different camgrind from them on various bikes, I've usually had good results with them.
mainly wondering on setups they have used them with ???

[pete376403]

I am pretty sure the sidecars are allowed to change up gears from the start, but once up to speed not allowed to change down, ie they have do the whole race, other than the start, in one gear. It follows then that what ever cams they use should be able to give a pretty wide power band. On the other hand the back tyre is spinning most of the time, that would effectively be a constantly variable transmission. Could be interesting on the road.

[sidecar bob]

Calling Grumph.

[Grumph]

Calling Grumph.

Don't know what the specs are for that grind. My preference with speedway chairs has always been to use std cams - but with the lobe centers moved to suit the application. It's quite possible to change the engine characteristics significantly doing this.

I'm surprised that the OP wants different cams for street use. I'd have thought that a pipe and power commander would have satisfied most.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Hi, yes I've tried a few different lobe center timings with the gsxr1000k5 inlet cam in combo with the stock gsx-s intake cam as the exhaust cam.
I had a reasonably wide powerband with 110/106 lobe center, although it did have a dead hole b4 5000rpm.
106/104 gave a more continuous delivery, but limited the topend, basicly im trying to replicate the stock wide delivery, but with gsxr levels of power.
I've carried out several mods to get the mtr to suit some hotter cams, the kelford regrind is supposed to deliver good torque and power spread, there specs are --- 9.9mm net intake lift / 254 duration @ 40thou lift, 8.7 mm lift / 242 duration exhaust .
so a fair bit hotter than the stock gsxr1000k5 which was 9.2mm net lift/ 251 degree duration @40thou lift.

[Grumph]

I'm not a fan of using short and low exhaust cams in these motors. Race versions use equal lift and duration both sides.

I'd personally go for around 250 @ .040 lift on both sides - and on 105/105 lobe centers. With a lift your springs are happy with - say 9.5mm.

Kelford's ownership has changed - and so have the staff. They've lost a lot of knowledge.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

so the cams are due back Tuesday, I've gone thru the valve spring setup, shimmed the spring seats to even heights and to set closing pressures.
I'm running gsxr750k6 springs on the inlets, stock springs on the exhaust side, I checked them for coil bind clearence-- 57 thou on inlets, heaps more on ex side, v/guide to retainers have .8mm clearance to spare.
the block came back today from dg eng's where it was diamond honed for the new rings, so I'm busy over the weekend rebuilding the mtr up to the cyl head, then I will degree in the cams and check the piston to valve clearances
once reinstalled il give it an initial couple of runs to bed the rings in, b4 I take it to Brent to dyno tune on thurs/Friday.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

I'm not a fan of using short and low exhaust cams in these motors. Race versions use equal lift and duration both sides.

I'd personally go for around 250 @ .040 lift on both sides - and on 105/105 lobe centers. With a lift your springs are happy with - say 9.5mm.

Kelford's ownership has changed - and so have the staff. They've lost a lot of knowledge.

I haven't found any symmetrical cams for the gsxr1000 yet, all the race ones I've seen are asymmetrical, I did have symmetrical cams in my gsxr1100g, it was a beast of a bike, spent a lot of $$$ on building up that mtr/bike, it's still the only bike I've ridden which when accelerating up a hill you had to watch you rolled of the throttle as you crested , or you got a really good look at the sky going down the other side !!

[layton]

I haven't found any symmetrical cams for the gsxr1000 yet, all the race ones I've seen are asymmetrical, I did have symmetrical cams in my gsxr1100g, it was a beast of a bike, spent a lot of $$$ on building up that mtr/bike, it's still the only bike I've ridden which when accelerating up a hill you had to watch you rolled of the throttle as you crested , or you got a really good look at the sky going down the other side !!


To be fair.. My aprilia is the same with the gearing it has, its a handful with 14/42 sprockets. Even though its old now still one of the most enjoyable bikes I have ridden.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

well the cams returned from kelford, I started installing them and noticed that they were mixed up, I.e they had put the inlet grind onto the exhaust cam, and ex grind onto the inlet cam !
I rang them up again, as I had explained which cam to put each grind onto, they admitted it's a mistake but asked if I can make it work arrh!!!!
so now I've had to remove and reinstall the adjustable sprocket Mting bushes, refigure the positions and retack the bushes, and then finally retime them to the cam lobe center timings - 106 /108, what a lot of wasted time due to an assumption by the guy regrinding them, so now I've missed any chance of getting it to the dyno tuner b4 he goes on holiday, or getting to the burt monroe rally this year.
guess I just have to suck it up, just annoying for them to make such a stupid mockup, on something that should be bleeding obvious, as I sent two different height cams to suit the two different grinds, each capable accepting the specific grinds.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Hi, I gave my gsx-s1000 a compression test tonight after getting mtr reinstalled, all compression figures within 3psi.
as it was late I only fired it up to ensure it was running.
so hope to give it a run 2moro sometime.
always abit nerve racking first firing a mtr after a rebuild.
got a few things to check before going for an initial run.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

evening, so I took it for its first run, I had the power commander hooked up as it runs better below 5krpm.
I just rolled on /off throttle, for a few k's , gave it a couple of revs to 9k rpm @ half throttle - starts pulling hard from 5k, which is ideal as that's about 120kph in top gear.
the fuelling /timing really needs sorting though as it's trying to detonate with load.
should be getting tuned next week when brents back.

[AllanB]

I hope the cam grinder offered a suitable rebate for the pissing about you had to do.

[nzspokes]

Cant help but think it would be easier to buy a GSXR1000 and fit normal bars to it.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

my brothers sv has hi-bars (f1 eng) it is better for relaxed riding than stock, it does feel a little vague in the front end when getting on the gas, and we have had the suspension gone over by Robert Taylor, I'm abit wary of altering the weight balance of a sportsbike, it can cause problems to the handling, and I really like both the ride position and the handling of the gsx-s, I like a confidence inspiring front end and I can't fault the gsx -s turn in, side -side transitions, and stability.
but yes I would agree , easier to just fit bars than carry out engine development on a bike that has no listings for hi-perf parts.
well a guy in aussie offers a 1200cc kit for $12,000 , but that's too rich for me

[AllanB]

well a guy in aussie offers a 1200cc kit for $12,000 , but that's too rich for me

Farrrkkkkk, you could turbo the thing for a lot less I'm sure.

$12k - on a $16k bike. That's Harley type spending there :bleh:

[layton]

Farrrkkkkk, you could turbo the thing for a lot less I'm sure.

$12k - on a $16k bike. That's Harley type spending there :bleh:



Could probably supercharge it for that amount of coin!

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Hi, yes it's easy for engine development costs to sore out of hand, I originally was just going to drop in a gsxrk5 inlet cam, give the head a mild port, install a thinner h/gasket.
now I've spent around $5k on various mods , a large chunk on engine machining costs, though it has evolved from a simple to much more intensive development.
and still the only non suzuki parts are the adjustable cam sprockets , kelford cams, v&h std size valves, plus the extactors i made., !

[Temporary-Kiwi]

so I've been doing some testing prior to it going to the dyno tuner next week, Bretts bike is supposed to be done today / tomorrow.
I've tried running it without the pcv , on the reflashed ecu that had a tune to suit stock mtr with a pipe, it does run better than the pcv tune at above 4k rpm, but still very lean - as it won't continue to pull hard thru to rev limiter in top two gears .
but its definitely going a lot harder than the previous cam set-up, I tried to gauge the mixture via some new plugs
but the ceramics are just as white as new, earth arms have a nasty overheated look about them.
the rings seem to be nearly run in, compressions still nice and even, so I did some work on the forks to get ready for the hillclimb, tried to run both the hyper-pro f/springs in conjunction with the k-tech valves and their compression adjusters, those hyperpro springs are probably only any good on a smooth racetrack, as they are just too stiff for general road riding. so I've reverted to one stock/one hyperpro springs, put 5 weight f/oil (10 weight prev) and a little more preload than previously, does seem a better set up. ive carried out a careful wheel alignment, rear wheel was 3mm offset to front, so ive ground l/h wheel spacer, and put a 1.5mm washer on r/h side, wheels are now within 1mm of true alignment.
hanging out for that engine tuning now.....

[Temporary-Kiwi]

so went for a ride to try out some suspension setting changes - came back home, smell something odd, coolant getting ejected - blown headgasket!
so looks like I'll be removing engine again
luckily I do have a spare gasket - just it's a stock thickness item, so compression will drop back to 12.5:1.
and it will require retiming cams again!
surely can't have much more go wrong with this rebuild
I better recheck everything just to be cautious, as I'm determined to go in the hillclimb, im still awaiting the dyno tune, as this is whats needed to get the thing running right, my fault on the blown gasket as its severely lean and needs some ignition advance taking out of it to run without detonating.

[pete376403]

What fuel are you running in it? Even your "lower" 12.5:1 would be pushing it on NZ petroswill.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

I ran 95 in it stock which was 12.2:1 comp ratio, but when it was reflashed to suit the 1st extractor exhaust, the guy gave it an aggressive ignition advance setup to aid the torque delivery. there's plenty of stock bikes running 12.5:1 comp ratio, some new 1k bikes run 13:1 stock now.
since I've been modding eng it's been run on mobil 98 octane, but its my guess its the ignition advance in combination with the very lean fueling causing the detonation.
if I slowly roll throttle til it's starting to pull into powerband I can then give it a heap of throttle with no additional detonating.
I was running between 12.9:1 and 13:1 comp ratio, but its the reduced squish figure I'll miss with the stock head gasket, it's 38thou with it, and 26thou with the thin gasket.
it slows the powerband engagement , makes it softer hitting, compared to the reduced squish figure.

[AllanB]

What fuel are you running in it? Even your "lower" 12.5:1 would be pushing it on NZ petroswill.

Most vehicles in search of better emissions and lower fuel economy are pushing high compression.

My Ducati is 13.2:1 and recommends 95 or 98 RON. No noticeable difference between the two fuels in real world use - well other then my wallet.

2018 GSXR1000 13.2:1

CBR100r 13:1

V4 Ducati is running 14:1

1290 Superduke 13.6:1

[pete376403]

Most vehicles in search of better emissions and lower fuel economy are pushing high compression.

My Ducati is 13.2:1 and recommends 95 or 98 RON. No noticeable difference between the two fuels in real world use - well other then my wallet.

2018 GSXR1000 13.2:1

CBR100r 13:1

V4 Ducati is running 14:1

1290 Superduke 13.6:1
Hmm ok. I'm guessing all of those bikes would have an engine management system that would include detonation sensors and the ability to alter ignition timing & fuel delivery as needed.

[AllanB]

Hmm ok. I'm guessing all of those bikes would have an engine management system that would include detonation sensors and the ability to alter ignition timing & fuel delivery as needed.

The computer is all knowing!

[Temporary-Kiwi]

no my gsx doesn't have knock sensor, nor does the gsxr1000, I've dropt the mtr out , removed head, got Taylor automotive to do a minimum plane on the head (1 1/2 thou) then I lightly lapped valves to see if any of the seats warped , all seems good.
so next I'll rebuild the cyl head and reinstall the eng and hook it back up , should be ready by Thursday, Bretts doing my brothers bike 2moro, then I can finally get it tuned and get some tyres fitted for the hillclimb.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

so got my bike back together and then managed to get it swapped over for tuning on brents dyno, probably be ready next week he said.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Brett has started tuning my gsx-s, but its still detonating under load around 4-5 k rpm, he's taken 7 degrees timing out but its still there, I did take it over with 95 octane gas
I've just got hold of some cr10ek spark plugs to help reduce it, and I got hold of phill tainton @ptr racing in aussie ( he has a 1200cc raced gsx-s) he thinks I should be able to remove more ignition advance without hurting the power , so I'll swap the fuel over to 98 and install the sp/plugs, Bretts got a couple more tweaks he can try also
so hoping it will be rideable by early next week.
I've got another thin gasket on order, but it will be too late for the hill climb, shame as it's noticeably down on grunt without it, 172hp will have to do till after the hillclimb.

[Grumph]

Have you replaced head bolts at any stage ? Worth doing with your new gasket - they stretch.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Have you replaced head bolts at any stage ? Worth doing with your new gasket - they stretch.

I haven't replaced the head bolts yet, there is 10 x 10mm fine threaded bolts holding down the head, the stock torque setting for the gsx-s is 23ft lb +60 degrees.
this is in effect less than 40 ft lb, the stock bolts are capable of a lot more torque, I'm setting them at 45 ft lb
I've carried out dozens of head gasket replacements on cars that they suggest replacing head bolts, for some customers I've replaced the bolts, others not, haven't noticed any difference, or failures.
bolts obviously do stretch with loading/ torque, my Carrillo conrods cap bolts were set by measuring how much stretch or length was gained.
I'm aware it's not exactly the modern practice, but at that low amount of torque I'm fairly sure they aren't going to fail

[Temporary-Kiwi]

so I went over to pearoa today, Bretts been trying to reduce the detonation I've had trouble with, but its still fairly bad, I also tried colder twin earth plugs, but it only marginally helped.
so I'm convinced it's a mismatch between the cams and exhaust pulse tuning, as it didn't have a sign of detonation with the tapered header and the stock cams.
so I'm pulling the mtr and reinstalling the stock cams albeit with more normal timing than they were stock.
stock lobe ctrs were 94 /104 degrees, I'll probably go with 104/106 for a broader power spread, and hopefully no detonation .

[pete376403]

Have you considered running Av-gas / 100 octane?

[Temporary-Kiwi]

it's a road ridden bike, with a fairly small fuel tank, so no I don't consider methanol an option, plus I don't believe it's compression that's causing it.
I've experienced detonation on previous modded engines,
any large increase in compression can cause it, however it's only at 12.55:1 at present, which is stock gsxr and they run on 91 octane.
a bad combination of cams and exhaust can cause it and due to previously mentioned stock cam/present header
combination worked, and this cam combo not, I'm hoping it will be running well for next weekend's event

[Temporary-Kiwi]

so I've got the adjustable cam sprockets swapped over onto the stock cams , I've reshimmed valve lash to work with the stock cams, just need to set cam lobe center timing to allow more topend power than stock , then re-install mtr in chassis to test run, it may need some retuning on Bretts dyno, but main thing is to see if the detonation is gone or at least much reduced.
plus I've still got a lot of other prep to do for the hillclimb

[Temporary-Kiwi]

well I made a stuff up when installing the stock cams with adjustable cogs, somewhere while installing/degreeing them in I allowed one cylinders inlet valves to hit something, resulted in bent valves, I didn't notice till after I had reinstalled mtr , it even fired up ok, but on test ride it progressively ran shittier, I leak down tested and found the issue, so it's back out with head off, I've ordered a set of v&h s/steel inlets, just got to wait till they arrive b4 I can give it another run.
I can say it didn't detonate in the little time it ran on all four cyl
but its probably a couple of weeks away from retesting.

[nodrog]

Did you win big Wednesday?

[Temporary-Kiwi]

with my luck I'd say that pigs will fly before that happens,
a set of vance & hines s/steel inlets delivered cost $366nz ex usa, approx 2-3week delivery.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

heres a dyno graph gsx-s1000, kelford cams, stock squish @38 thou, 12.55:1 comp ratio, epoxy ported head, 5 angle valve seat cut, v&h valves, hayabusa velocity stacks, tapered header exhaust, 341408

[Temporary-Kiwi]

well the gsx-s has been on back burner as I've been incapacitated due to my stuffed wrist, but I've got some updates, I discovered the kelford cams had also minute partials left in them from the regrinds, and it was stuffing the cyl head bearings, I initially thought it was stuffed so I ordered a gsxr1000k7 cylinder head ex USA.
then from phoning around some engine shops I got advised to try a remedial option which has made it appear like it will be useable, I got kelford to redress the journals
so it's got some likelihood of success.
the k7/8 cylinder head is mint, and looks identical other than the titanium valve setup, I'm planning on running the gsx head with the stock cams next, play with lobe ctr timing to get best overall delivery, but I've got plans for the k7 head, I'll port it abit differently to gain more topend power to exemplify the kelford cams potential, together with 13,000+rpm, should end up with around 180+rwhp with that setup, but its going to take a few months for my wrist to be useable as its a 4month rehab from surgery