Lowering speed limits to 80 (from 100) and 30/40 (from 50)... A research paper.

[Conquiztador]

Labour will do more with this than file it and stamp it... Should we be worried??

https://viastrada.nz/sites/default/files/2019-03/TG2019-ResearchPaper-GKoorey-SpeedLimits-final.pdf

[mulletman]

Dont mind them dropping some limits down a tad around known crash intersections like they have done in the Selwyn/ChCh district.

[Old Steve]

And the hoons who have all the accidents will still shoot by at 130 and 70 respectively.

[Navy Boy]

Sadly the media have managed to get hold of this and it's being peddled all over the news this evening. Along with pictures of accidents over the Queen's birthday weekend.

It stinks to be honest.

Lowering speed limits doesn't help In fact it turns conformers into law-breakers. The accident stats are about so much more than speed but the authorities simply won't be bold enough to try and tackle the root causes as it takes time, effort and money.

News reporting for the hard of thinking again I'm afraid. <_<

[JimO]

that stupid mong genter will be fizzing at the bung over this

[Oakie]

I wonder if there are any stats or study on the effects of slower speeds on driver concentration? Do they feel safer at lower speeds so compensate by driving with less attention than is required at 'normal' speeds?

[AllanB]

Dont mind them dropping some limits down a tad around known crash intersections like they have done in the Selwyn/ChCh district.


Agree re some of our local roads. Ellesmere Road was 100 but is way too busy for that now. I do laugh at the section of road along there that started sinking in places and became quite bumpy. The solution was NOT to fix the road but make that short section 70 ...... that's just lazy.

I have noticed people follow closer on roads that were previously 100 and are now 80 .... way to close.

[Ginge09]

My take is that it won't happen between now and next election. This government signalled a lot of changes when they came to power. Some they have punched through and they have others to progress but they are long standing ( and involve coalition partners). This one will be put on the back burner unless they get a further mandate at next election.

Wouldn't get too worried about it.

[BMWST?]

I wonder if there are any stats or study on the effects of slower speeds on driver concentration? Do they feel safer at lower speeds so compensate by driving with less attention than is required at 'normal' speeds?

I am sure there is some merit to this argument.plus of course all the conveniences(distractions) of the modern vehicle.Why do you have to look at ascreen to adjust the a/c ?

[actungbaby]

Labour will do more with this than file it and stamp it... Should we be worried??

https://viastrada.nz/sites/default/files/2019-03/TG2019-ResearchPaper-GKoorey-SpeedLimits-final.pdfYes a 200 kph combined crash doesint appeal much.
Also i found going into small towns it goes 100 kph 50 then up to 100 then soon after 80 kph or 50kph. Think alot unnecessary. Just keep at 50 kph bit longer.

Sent from my SOV31 using Tapatalk

[SaferRides]

NZ First will block it. Aren?t coalition governments great?

[Temporary-Kiwi]

politicians are only worried about getting reelected, not actually fixing a problem, and by reducing the speed limit, which won't cost much $$$ and they will be able to claim they've done something to save lives
on the other hand, by having crashes at slower speeds and probably more surviving the impact, it will mean a fair few more people being in intensive care for longer and massive amount of acc payments and downtime for rehab.
this could end up costing the government more money than bringing a real cure like actually training people how to control a vehicle and avoid accidents in the first place!!!

[Taxythingy]

by having crashes at slower speeds and probably more surviving the impact, it will mean a fair few more people being in intensive care for longer and massive amount of acc payments and downtime for rehab.

Sheeiit, I hope you missed the sarcasm tag there, because that doesn't make any sense. At all.

[eldog]

how many times have you seen speed signs changed to XX temporary?
later to become XX speed limit

far too often.

This week while travelling, along I have narrowly missed either being taken out or taking someone else out, more than 6 times.
None involved speed.
All related to people not paying attention or being able to see intersections/lanes

1 overcooked corner - ended in ditch

1 under cooked corner - tried taking out car which was stationary waiting to turn out of street

1 vehicle couldn't make up mind which lane it was in the one in the direction it was travelling or the one going the other way. Seriously thought about dobbing this one in, so bad it wasnt funny.

2 people have no idea of give way rule when turning right at a X intersection - they just rip out onto the main road..... '"Its my right" was the answer to why they ploughed into another car which was already travelling straight across an intersection, when the 'victum' put the boot down and turn right into them

2 people walking out onto road with no regard to green light (one of these I narrowly avoided-they had no idea, motorcycle skills came to fore here, planned exit strategy)

none of these would have made a difference what speed the area was.

and that was just this week.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

how many times have you seen speed signs changed to XX temporary?
later to become XX speed limit

far too often.

This week while travelling, along I have narrowly missed either being taken out or taking someone else out, more than 6 times.
None involved speed.
All related to people not paying attention or being able to see intersections/lanes

1 overcooked corner - ended in ditch

1 under cooked corner - tried taking out car which was stationary waiting to turn out of street

1 vehicle couldn't make up mind which lane it was in the one in the direction it was travelling or the one going the other way. Seriously thought about dobbing this one in, so bad it wasnt funny.

2 people have no idea of give way rule when turning right at a X intersection - they just rip out onto the main road..... '"Its my right" was the answer to why they ploughed into another car which was already travelling straight across an intersection, when the 'victum' put the boot down and turn right into them

2 people walking out onto road with no regard to green light (one of these I narrowly avoided-they had no idea, motorcycle skills came to fore here, planned exit strategy)

none of these would have made a difference what speed the area was.

and that was just this week.
seems your also saying as I did that people need to be trained how to drive, roadcraft is severely lacking in the general driving population, im actually against lowering the speed limit at all, id rather they raise it to what a german feller advised the AA when the speed limit got raised to 100kph, he suggested 140kph open road limit
at that speed all the lemings will kill themselves off and thereby stop breeding more , all i meant is by the stupid people crashing at lower speeds, there will probably be more of them that survive the crash and then cost the taxpayer more $$$ to get healed up

[jasonu]

They'd do better to improve the general standard of drivers. Driving on NZ roads full of NZ drivers is frightening.

[Jeff Sichoe]

The report is a bunch of waffle but this paragraph stands out as potentially the final say on speed limit reductions;

One wonders philosophically whether the general public would prefer (say) a 100 km/h limit with a 4 km/h tolerance, or a 90 km/h limit with a 10 km/h tolerance. The latter is likely to result in lower average speeds (and corresponding safety gains), even though more drivers will probably not be technically complying with the posted limit. Another consideration is whether eliminating the current steep traffic fines for speeding (possibly retaining a basic scheme administration levy) and focusing on penalising via demerit points (and potentially loss of licence) instead may also eliminate the ?revenue gathering? argument.

[Ixion]

I think there may be a backstory to this.

Our wonderful leaders recently decided to set a target of zero for road fatalities. Zero. Now anyone with the slightest glimmer of intelligence knows thats not possible, the world and people being the imperfect things they are.

But, we're talking politicians here so intelligence doesn't come into it.

So, the head of NZTA gets called to the Ministers office.

"I have a wonderful policy. Zero deaths. Make it happen"
"But, Minister, it's impossible. Cos, facts reality etc"
"Don't care. Change them. Do what you have to. Make it happen . Or else"
"Yes, Minister"

So, as head of NZTA what do you do now, to get out of the shit. Well , one thing is to put forward proposals that are draconian, will be tremendously unpopular, and tell the dear Minister,

"Well Minister, to implement your wonderful brilliant and far sighted policy of zero deaths, that's one of the things we need To do. Well, yes, i suppose it may Be very unpopular, and I suppose it might mean you lose the next election. But that's a political matter for you to sort out . I'll go ahead with implementation shall I, and let everyone know it your idea. Hmm, oh no I have NO idea how word of it leaked out. Oh, you'll get back to me. OK"

Reckon?

[Voltaire]

I had a letter in the mail from the Police asking for $80 as I was doing 92 in an 80 zone on SH1 in Dome Valley by Warkworth. So they can take pics of you going the other way.....:eek5:
Should I write in and say my 45 year old speedo may not be that accurate?

[Conquiztador]

Ah yes, this was never about saving lives. It is all about saving costs/creating income:
- Reduce speed limits instead of fixing roads, as fixing roads is expensive!
- More people speeding as some of the speed limits will be too low for the road in question. This then results in more speed cameras to make sure the financial benefit of the lower speeds are maximised.

If this was about saving lives get stuck in to reducing suicide rates in NZ. Currently about 600 suicides in NZ/year and 337 road deaths in latest stats for 2018 (probably even higher amount of suicides as some are not recorded as suicides; type car crashes, overdosing on medicine etc).

So roughly double the number of suicides compared to road toll. So you would then expect that suicide prevention would get approx double the amount of money spent on it if saving lives was the main aim here... sadly not. Suicide prevention gets approx 10% of funding compared to trying to reduce the road toll. But that is understandable. You can not write a fine to someone for an unsuccessful suicide attempt...

[rastuscat]

I think there may be a backstory to this.

Our wonderful leaders recently decided to set a target of zero for road fatalities. Zero. Now anyone with the slightest glimmer of intelligence knows thats not possible, the world and people being the imperfect things they are.



There's a lack of understanding about Vision Zero. It's not a goal, in the same way that 300 is not a goal.

Ask yourself, how many people do you think it's reasonable to kill on the roads each year? 250? 270?

Then line up all your mates, family and people you care about. How many of them is is okay to kill each year? I suspect the answer is none. Zero.


https://youtu.be/yHhiUv9hX-o

That's what Vision Zero is referring to, the fact that killing anyone is not acceptable.

I wouldn't mind people getting killed if we would choose who they are. Trouble is, it's just Mr and Mrs Average.

[rastuscat]

Ah yes, this was never about saving lives. It is all about saving costs/creating income:
- Reduce speed limits instead of fixing roads, as fixing roads is expensive!


I heard a professor being interviewed yesterday about this. He said that lowering speed limits isn't the answer. Hoorah, he's a hero.

Then he said the answer is to have a 4 lane highway running the lenght of NZ. Wow, great idea.

When we can't even afford to pay for 4 lanes between Christchurch and Ashburton, or put barriers down the middle of the roads we already have.

So that professor appears to be saying that the answer is 4-laning SH1, and do nothing until that happens.

I just un-heroed him.

[Conquiztador]

There's a lack of understanding about Vision Zero. It's not a goal, in the same way that 300 is not a goal.

Ask yourself, how many people do you think it's reasonable to kill on the roads each year? 250? 270?

Then line up all your mates, family and people you care about. How many of them is is okay to kill each year? I suspect the answer is none. Zero.



That's what Vision Zero is referring to, the fact that killing anyone is not acceptable.

I wouldn't mind people getting killed if we would choose who they are. Trouble is, it's just Mr and Mrs Average.

This same government refused to set a zero non-goal for suicides...

[rastuscat]

They'd do better to improve the general standard of drivers. Driving on NZ roads full of NZ drivers is frightening.

Hmmmm.

We did a research project into the attitudes of drivers across Canterbury late last year.

Two striking common themes arose.


People think driver education is a great idea....................for other people. Very few people actually go and get education for themselves.

And people generally think they are better than average. This is mostly because they see other people making mistakes, but don't see their own mistakes.



In the motorcycle world, it's fairly cheap to get training. Through the Ride Forever programme. But no such subsidized programme is available for car drivers. Most people who get driver training once they have a full licence are given it by their employer. Very, very few seek out and get driver education for themselves, at their own cost. And those who do prefer to be shown racing lines on a track and how to get the most out of their HSV or WRX.

Very few people ever see the need to get basic driver training, as they think they are good enough anyway. It's them other people who need training.

Like the people who don't indicate properly at roundabouts. I guess nobody ever died from that, but it sure pisses people off. But who ever gets education on how to indicate at roundabouts?

[Autech]

I do a fair amount of driving and in the past week alone I have experienced this:

1.) Very nearly hit head on coming back from Te Kuiti, there was a long line of traffic and some hero in a ute (it seems to be utes doing the dangerous overtaking a lot of the time) was overtaking on yellow lines around a corner in the dark and wet. I had to slam on the brakes and swerve left else I may have been a statistic and not writing this message. You'd miss me!
Was speed the cause? No.

2.) Very scary accident in Hamilton coming past the skate park on Normandy ave. Red Mazda was hauling arse in the right hand lane and a lovely new Blue hatch decided to change lanes from left to right, the Mazda has hit the brakes as hard as he could but has hit the right rear of the blue hatch pit maneuvering him/her across the lovely garden median strip and into head on traffic. Luckily the blue car managed to miss the oncoming cars avoiding a potentially fatal head on.
Was speed the cause? Yes, but the Mazda was not doing the speed limit. It was a pile of shit driven by a young boof head looking fuck. It wasn't the only factor though as the Blue hatch had time from what I saw to see the Mazda coming but failed to do so. So I don't see how lowing the limit would prevent that. Shooting the little cunt and getting Nanna/Grandpa out of the blue hatch might help though.

3.) Tauriko roundabout in Tauranga, I was in the outside lane they have designated to turn right (I miss the days when round abouts were much simpler). I was on the outside of a Jag and was watching them closely, sure enough when exiting they cut across my lane and nearly took my nose off. Pissed me right off as they weren't even going to the BP so had no need to be in the left lane at that time.
Was speed the cause? No, just a poor driver with no clue what they are doing.

I'm at the point now where I don't know if I'm going to survive my next trip and it's always down to drivers making poor decisions, not speed, that causes me the most concern. I'm driving as defensively as possible but really how can you factor in for every scenario? The roads are in shit state too, pot holes and changing grip every few metres isn't helping.

A four lane highway 1 would drop our road toll by at least a 3rd I reckon, having driven in the US/Canada it's so easy, you just hit cruise control and drive. Just like driving to Auckland, as soon as I hit the express way I feel much safer. Who's paying though?

[Jeff Sichoe]

I propose that cyclists are stopped, frisked and relieved of valuables on their trips into city centers to pay for safer roads.

You know, sort of like how we are stolen from at the petrol pump to pay for safe spaces for rich cunts to ride their 10k single speeds on.

[HenryDorsetCase]

how many times have you seen speed signs changed to XX temporary?
later to become XX speed limit

far too often.

This week while travelling, along I have narrowly missed either being taken out or taking someone else out, more than 6 times.
None involved speed.
All related to people not paying attention or being able to see intersections/lanes

1 overcooked corner - ended in ditch

1 under cooked corner - tried taking out car which was stationary waiting to turn out of street

1 vehicle couldn't make up mind which lane it was in the one in the direction it was travelling or the one going the other way. Seriously thought about dobbing this one in, so bad it wasnt funny.

2 people have no idea of give way rule when turning right at a X intersection - they just rip out onto the main road..... '"Its my right" was the answer to why they ploughed into another car which was already travelling straight across an intersection, when the 'victum' put the boot down and turn right into them

2 people walking out onto road with no regard to green light (one of these I narrowly avoided-they had no idea, motorcycle skills came to fore here, planned exit strategy)

none of these would have made a difference what speed the area was.

and that was just this week.

are you sure this motorbike thing is for you?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I propose that cyclists are stopped, frisked and relieved of valuables on their trips into city centers to pay for safer roads.

You know, sort of like how we are stolen from at the petrol pump to pay for safe spaces for rich cunts to ride their 10k single speeds on.

I've got a Litespeed road bike for sale. Could be yours. You clearly cant beat them so why not join them?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Was speed the cause? No.


but it was a "factor"

[Jeff Sichoe]

I've got a Litespeed road bike for sale. Could be yours. You clearly cant beat them so why not join them?

Hey life isn't worth living unless you have something you hate unreasonably! ha

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Hmmmm.

We did a research project into the attitudes of drivers across Canterbury late last year.

Two striking common themes arose.


People think driver education is a great idea....................for other people. Very few people actually go and get education for themselves.

And people generally think they are better than average. This is mostly because they see other people making mistakes, but don't see their own mistakes.



In the motorcycle world, it's fairly cheap to get training. Through the Ride Forever programme. But no such subsidized programme is available for car drivers. Most people who get driver training once they have a full licence are given it by their employer. Very, very few seek out and get driver education for themselves, at their own cost. And those who do prefer to be shown racing lines on a track and how to get the most out of their HSV or WRX.

Very few people ever see the need to get basic driver training, as they think they are good enough anyway. It's them other people who need training.

Like the people who don't indicate properly at roundabouts. I guess nobody ever died from that, but it sure pisses people off. But who ever gets education on how to indicate at roundabouts?

it seems obvious to me that the license test is completely inadequate as a standard bearer for access to our roads
we have variable conditions and vastly different types of roads, yet we spend mega dollars on supposed safety schemes, even more on "safer roads", yet still the same faulty level of instruction for driving, i.e mum/dad.
I think the definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect a better outcome !
if we had a comprehensive training scheme in place that allowed people to actually achieve some level of competence prior to actually being allowed control of a lethal object, surely that would reduce the amount of crashes, I mean if you want less harm on the roads , having drivers who are able to stay on their side of the road , and have some idea that paying attention to whats coming up ahead, not their cellphone is the prime objective - not crashing means not harming

[rastuscat]

it seems obvious to me that the license test is completely inadequate as a standard bearer for access to our roads
we have variable conditions and vastly different types of roads, yet we spend mega dollars on supposed safety schemes, even more on "safer roads", yet still the same faulty level of instruction for driving, i.e mum/dad.
I think the definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect a better outcome !
if we had a comprehensive training scheme in place that allowed people to actually achieve some level of competence prior to actually being allowed control of a lethal object, surely that would reduce the amount of crashes, I mean if you want less harm on the roads , having drivers who are able to stay on their side of the road , and have some idea that paying attention to whats coming up ahead, not their cellphone is the prime objective - not crashing means not harming

Have you done a Ride Forever course?

[pritch]

Like the people who don't indicate properly at roundabouts.

God moves in mysterious ways - but those arseholes are supposed to use their blinkers.

[Navy Boy]

It's funny how human nature makes us react to things like this...

Additional training, whatever form you take it in, is never seen as being a cool thing to do. It feels like you're being taken to task sometimes when your riding/driving is criticised, I should know as it happened to me quite a bit when I started doing my IAM training again here in NZ.

I found that simply telling someone else about the training you were undertaking, be it your partner, friend, work colleague or simply someone you know helps you to rationalise it. In other words it sounds a lot better and more grown up when you tell someone else about what you are doing in order to try and better your riding.

We all have different reasons for doing so. Whether it's to try and do a new/faster/more expensive machine justice, because we've had a close call ourselves or simply because someone suggested it to us it simply doesn't matter. Training helps you do your bit to make you and the people around you safer.

This story about speed limits makes me mad because this aspect to self improvement is simply brushed under the carpet. Doubtless the media has put their own spin on it for those of us who are hard of thinking. A shame really as the message that speed is the root of all evil is being well and truly rammed home once more. :bash:

[Temporary-Kiwi]

Have you done a Ride Forever course?

I admit I haven't completed a course , I also admit to not having crashed into anyone, I do training, just not what some might call training, I regularly practice crash avoidance tactics, brake testing, machine handling skills, and practice the roadcraft I've learned over 40yrs riding
and avoiding those who have tried to make me a statistic
I'm suggesting training of new driver primarily, but I also realise all driver would benefit from advanced driver training, and if it meant lower insurance, acc levy or is mandated b4 I could renew my license I'd be willing

[eldog]

are you sure this motorbike thing is for you?

It's not perfect but it's what I can easily enjoy.

It has taught me to think further ahead when using the road, to ride appropriately for the conditions and surrounding idiots.

I have done training and when I ride I try and learn something each time, when riding with others I learn a lot.
I try to ride only with those I think will educate me about my riding.

I intend on doing more training when I get a few more km done.

Being aware is important. Being responsible on the road is hard for most.

Speed amplifies mistakes. It doesn't cause them.

What next? Will we need a person in front carrying a flag?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hmmmm.

We did a research project into the attitudes of drivers across Canterbury late last year.

Two striking common themes arose.


People think driver education is a great idea....................for other people. Very few people actually go and get education for themselves.

And people generally think they are better than average. This is mostly because they see other people making mistakes, but don't see their own mistakes.



In the motorcycle world, it's fairly cheap to get training. Through the Ride Forever programme. But no such subsidized programme is available for car drivers. Most people who get driver training once they have a full licence are given it by their employer. Very, very few seek out and get driver education for themselves, at their own cost. And those who do prefer to be shown racing lines on a track and how to get the most out of their HSV or WRX.

Very few people ever see the need to get basic driver training, as they think they are good enough anyway. It's them other people who need training.

Like the people who don't indicate properly at roundabouts. I guess nobody ever died from that, but it sure pisses people off. But who ever gets education on how to indicate at roundabouts?

So these Ride Forever courses. I did the Bronze one a few years back (it was free I think). Are the silver and gold ones worth doing? and do I get snacks? maybe a few beers?

[Grumph]

So these Ride Forever courses. I did the Bronze one a few years back (it was free I think). Are the silver and gold ones worth doing? and do I get snacks? maybe a few beers?

If you do it in Selwyn, I think you may get a handbag....You responsible for those Rastus ?

[rastuscat]

If you do it in Selwyn, I think you may get a handbag....You responsible for those Rastus ?

If you're a resident of Selwyn, I'll pay for your R4E course. I even have a handbag you can have. Bought it for a friend.

[rastuscat]

I admit I haven't completed a course , I also admit to not having crashed into anyone, I do training, just not what some might call training, I regularly practice crash avoidance tactics, brake testing, machine handling skills, and practice the roadcraft I've learned over 40yrs riding


No criticism, but you made my point well. Lots of people think education is a great idea.........for other people.

[AllanB]

NZ First will block it. Aren?t coalition governments great?


No - they will vote for it. Old people drive slow.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

No criticism, but you made my point well. Lots of people think education is a great idea.........for other people.

so you seem to say that the training I've done isn't as good as what your providing simply because it didn't come with some peice of paper ?
your in the wrong profession, I suggest you join the osh brigade they'd love you, my qualification is 40yrs of fairly extreme motor cycling without crashing into anyone, ie not causing any harm to another person, ain't that the best "certificate"

[FJRider]

Not really a big issue. The law enforcers just want traffic flowing smoothly. If everybody is at the same speed ... they don't stop everybody.

Attract attention by going faster (or slower) than the general flow and you get a ticket.

The 10 km/hr "tolerance" would put the common speed on the highways at 90 km/hr.

In the towns/cities the speed traveled will still be 50 km/hr.

Stupidity and ignorance (with a dash of booze) will still kill as many people.

[rastuscat]

Not really a big issue.

The 10 km/hr "tolerance" would put the common speed on the highways at 90 km/hr.

In the towns/cities the speed traveled will still be 50 km/hr.
.

Finally, some common sense.

Are you married? Do ya wanna be?

[AllanB]

This reminded me of "The Red Car Lady' out my way.

Ellesmere road was 100 - she refused to exceed 80.

They lowered the limit to 80 - she now refuses to exceed 60.

I think she gets her jollies off by being tooted at, abused and recklessly passed. She is dangerous.

[Hoonicorn]

Julie-ann Genter said there were a lot of "easy wins" with NZ roads, like more wire fencing on high-risk roads, and dropping speed limits.

The report seems to ramble on a lot, but the main cause of accidents is people relying on their reaction/response time rather than fully concentrating on what they - and other road users - are doing. That means, no planning ahead, no focusing up the road for hazards, no assessing risks before doing manoeuvres - preferring instead to rely on their "skill" as a driver to swerve or brake if something goes pear-shaped.

The underlying point being, lowering speeds doesn't make people better drivers, it just gives them a little bit more reaction time. Really the issue is driver skill, or the lack thereof. It's too easy to get a licence and hardly anyone has done any advanced or defensive driver training.

If lowering the speed causes less accidents, maybe they aren't going far enough, maybe speed limits should be 60 on highways and 20 on town streets.

[Berries]

If lowering the speed causes less accidents, maybe they aren't going far enough, maybe speed limits should be 60 on highways and 20 on town streets.
People will still die at those speeds. It is a fact of life when traveling above walking pace. Yes, less people will die but some still will. At some point there has to be an acceptable level of death on the road where we say yes, we would rather there were none but this is the price that has to be paid for us to be mobile. Does seem a bit daft to have a vision that you know is impossible to achieve.

If Safer Journeys continues in its present form then there will have to be a wholesale reduction in the open road speed limit if they want to make a dent in the number of road deaths. Concentrating on the worst ten percent of roads won't achieve enough. Problem is this will not affect the drugged up piss head with no seatbelt doing 40km/h over the limit, or the dude who falls asleep and misses the bend, or the woman distracted by the fighting kids on the back seat. Then what?

I see in Europe all new cars are soon going to require in vehicle equipment that will force compliance with whatever the GPS says the speed limit is. That will come here, but we'll all be off the bikes by the time that hits NZ. Seriously, if they had the balls and really wanted to make an impact on road safety they would ban motorbikes.

Anyway, some of you may find this book on Book Depository an interesting read - Safe System or Stalinist System (https://www.bookdepository.com/Safe-System-or-Stalinist-System-Rob-Robert-Morgan/9780958113915?ref=grid-view&qid=1559821084955&sr=1-1)

[jasonu]

so you seem to say that the training I've done isn't as good as what your providing simply because it didn't come with some peice of paper ?
your in the wrong profession, I suggest you join the osh brigade they'd love you, my qualification is 40yrs of fairly extreme motor cycling without crashing into anyone, ie not causing any harm to another person, ain't that the best "certificate"

The old 'I've never had an accident' defense.

[rastuscat]

so you seem to say that the training I've done isn't as good as what your providing simply because it didn't come with some peice of paper ?
your in the wrong profession, I suggest you join the osh brigade they'd love you, my qualification is 40yrs of fairly extreme motor cycling without crashing into anyone, ie not causing any harm to another person, ain't that the best "certificate"

Not everyone is as shit hot as you. Most people haven't done training. Certainly most car drivers last looked at a road code when they got their licences.

I'll stand by what I said. People think driver education is a great idea.................for other people.

[Jeff Sichoe]

I bet this won't be an issue within 10 years. By 2030 we'll be riding electric bikes with geo-fencing limiting the top speed to whatever the appropriate speed limit is for that area.

Petrol powered bikes will not be feasible for the majority of us, with the tax on fuel making even a quick 200km blat cost $200+

Vote Sichoe 2020 i'll sort it out

[Autech]

Not everyone is as shit hot as you. Most people haven't done training. Certainly most car drivers last looked at a road code when they got their licences.

I'll stand by what I said. People think driver education is a great idea.................for other people.

I looked into a skid pan event the other day as I would like to get myself and wife along for one. I had a very sideways incident in our new car recently in the wet which I saved, but I'd rather learn how to do that in a more controlled area, thankfully I had some years as a bit of a hoon so it wasn't my first rodeo.
So anyways looked into it and it was 300 per person for only 3 hours training, and I am guessing not all that is on the pan learning how to do mad skids.

Why I'd love to say I could afford it, we just can't right now. We get taxed to the hilt so ACC should be putting their money into skid pan training just as they do for bike training, might actually save a few lives. Either that or it should be included in the driver licensing testing similar to the handling skills of the learners, drivers have to do X amount from certified trainers to pass the next stage. Our licensing is too focused on indicating for 3 seconds rather than your actual ability of driving a car. Pretty sure Finland has skid pan training as part of there licensing system.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

we have a large free skid pan training set up in nz -
a vast network of gravel roads, it's where I learned to drive
I've found it invaluable to keep machine handling skills up to par, when I was younger there were also many flat beaches that could be accessed on a bike, but they are getting harder to access due the greenie element saying it wrecks them, it's a lot softer crapping off on sand than gravel, as i get older i find i need more training to keep the skills up, another thing ive noticed when i didnt have a m/c for a year or two, is if you only go slow for awhile , your reactive responses dull, the quicker acelleration and speed potential of m/c's really helps keep them sharp
I suspect any training is helpful if it gets you out of the rut
your brain loves to get into

[pritch]

We get taxed to the hilt so ACC should be putting their money into skid pan training just as they do for bike training, might actually save a few lives. Either that or it should be included in the driver licensing testing similar to the handling skills of the learners, drivers have to do X amount from certified trainers to pass the next stage. Our licensing is too focused on indicating for 3 seconds rather than your actual ability of driving a car. Pretty sure Finland has skid pan training as part of there licensing system.

Decades ago the consensus among my friends was that if you hadn't been on a skid pan or a track you were not really a driver. Most had competed in various forms of motorsport so were biased. I still believe that.

There is a shortage of skid pans and the only track related driver courses that I'm aware of are those that were organised by BMW and Holden. These can be quite expensive if you have to add travel and accomodation.

Most of the objections to any practical driver training will come from the National Party. Imagine the uproar if farmer's kids had to travel to town for driver training. It ain't gonna to happen.

[Autech]

we have a large free skid pan training set up in nz -
a vast network of gravel roads, it's where I learned to drive
I've found it invaluable to keep machine handling skills up to par, when I was younger there were also many flat beaches that could be accessed on a bike, but they are getting harder to access due the greenie element saying it wrecks them, it's a lot softer crapping off on sand than gravel, as i get older i find i need more training to keep the skills up, another thing ive noticed when i didnt have a m/c for a year or two, is if you only go slow for awhile , your reactive responses dull, the quicker acelleration and speed potential of m/c's really helps keep them sharp
I suspect any training is helpful if it gets you out of the rut
your brain loves to get into

My driver training was night time hill climbs with mates in our boy racer cars up a few roads in the sticks that no one went up at night, was some hairy moments but the only people we could have hurt was ourselves. Was great fun and awesome memories.


Decades ago the consensus among my friends was that if you hadn't been on a skid pan or a track you were not really a driver. Most had competed in various forms of motorsport so were biased. I still believe that.

I've done the bike racing/riding which I believe gives you an ability that car drivers don't seem to have, case and point is when I got on some hire karts in Aus against some aussie sim racing mates that race karts and beat them at their own game :D, the look on their faces... As I strapped into it this thought went through my head "I can't fall off this", from then on it was pedal to the floor!

Any bikers that go on Top Gear always end up on the top of the board in the reasonably fast car, so there definitely is something to be said about the bikers make better drivers argument, knowing corner lines etc seems to be pretty good for most riders.

Racing sims are getting better and better too as a way of sharpening up the reflexes, so not a bad way to get into "motorsport" for those that can't afford to get out on the track IRL. My set up cost me under a grand and keeps me happy for a weekly race or two.

[Autech]

Some more research brought out this:

https://www.hamptondowns.com/attractions/wet-skid-pan/

Only $59 for your own car, no tutor but better than nothing!

[roogazza]

As a 16- 17 yr old any wet day in the Hutt Valley, all roads were a skid pan !!! Thats how we grew up !

[rastuscat]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes.

All the basic stuff. Nobody is going to pay $300 to learn basic stuff, but it's the basics done well that make for a good road user.

Each day we see people who get the basics wrong.

Example. Riding a troll bike on Blenheim Road, in Lane 1. In Lane 2 there's a blue XR6 Falcon following a red Suzuki Swift about 6 metres behind, at 60 kmh.

The correct following distance is 24 metres, but the 2 second rule would put the XR6 33 metres back.

On go the nee nars, pulls XR6 over. Following is the standard dialogue.

Rastuscat "Gidday bloke, how far back should you be at 60 kmh"

Small Penis Man "2 second rule"

So here's SPM telling me he was following the 2 second rule, when he was at 6 metres, and the 2 second rule would be 33 metres.


It's the basics that aren't even done properly. But if SPM was to get driver training, he'd want to learn about cornering lines, skid control, emergency braking and crash avoidance.

That's the problem. Few people will pay for basic skills they don't have.

[Autech]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes.

All the basic stuff. Nobody is going to pay $300 to learn basic stuff, but it's the basics done well that make for a good road user.

Each day we see people who get the basics wrong.

Example. Riding a troll bike on Blenheim Road, in Lane 1. In Lane 2 there's a blue XR6 Falcon following a red Suzuki Swift about 6 metres behind, at 60 kmh.

The correct following distance is 24 metres, but the 2 second rule would put the XR6 33 metres back.

On go the nee nars, pulls XR6 over. Following is the standard dialogue.

Rastuscat "Gidday bloke, how far back should you be at 60 kmh"

Small Penis Man "2 second rule"

So here's SPM telling me he was following the 2 second rule, when he was at 6 metres, and the 2 second rule would be 33 metres.


It's the basics that aren't even done properly. But if SPM was to get driver training, he'd want to learn about cornering lines, skid control, emergency braking and crash avoidance.

That's the problem. Few people will pay for basic skills they don't have.

That's the easy stuff that any road user with half a brain knows how to do. New flash though, they don't. I'm a sad fuck that counts out the 2 sec rule when following someone, counts my indicating time and does head checks. It's not rocket science.

From my keyboard we need to get certain road users off the road, like the many SPM that I see in their utes everyday of the week driving rural Waikato roads. They're the ones overtaking at the wrong time and causing the fatal crashes. Every single close call I've had/seen since moving back this way was caused by a ute overtaking somewhere dumb.

Anyone know the stats on how many deaths are caused by poor decisions when overtaking? I'm guessing a lot of them are. Gummant doesn't want us to know that though so they say speed is the cause, not the dumb fuck overtaking at the wrong time and taking out the family of 3 heading the other way.

[Swoop]

Sadly, common sense has left the building.
We "train" citizens to pass the driving test but NOT driving skills.

The severity of "lack of driver ability" on NZ roads is not insurmountable, IF a government has the balls to draw a line in the sand on this issue. Unfortunately we are continually assaulted by the propaganda ministry response, unstead of coming out and stating "KIWI DRIVERS ARE INEPT".



Julie-ann Genter said there were a lot of "easy wins" with NZ roads, like more wire fencing on high-risk roads, and dropping speed limits.
She is a fucking canadian retard with no idea apart from bad ideas. Send the cunt home.


Decades ago the consensus among my friends was that if you hadn't been on a skid pan or a track you were not really a driver.
Sadly we have to factor in the "net-nanny" of vehicle stability control assistance... which takes over when IT feels right.
Try using power to get out of a situation & getting "computer says NO" in response. I'm still looking at ways to deactivate it on my car.

[pritch]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes.


Sorry, you could do all that stuff and still not really be a driver at all. Part of the problem is that people get a licence and think they're good drivers. They're not, they are absolute beginners. They know nothing of road craft, and likely have never even heard of it. Some may do a defensive driving course, most do nothing further whatsoever.

Motorcycle riding is in itself a defensive driving course, you learn quickly or you don't stick around.

At the risk of repeating myself, only one driver at work ever asked me how she could go about learning car control. She had a doctorate so she was possibly a bit brighter than some. I directed her to the Holden and BMW driver training pages on the web. Her manager agreed to pay for her to attend the Holden course but then said she could have a laptop or do the drivers course but not both - so she took the laptop.

[jasonu]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes..

You mean the commonsense stuff that apparently we all know.....

[pete-blen]

I now just ride a 250 trailie?
80kmph is a nice easy speed for it...:scooter:

So I really don't care that much..:woohoo:




..

[rastuscat]

You mean the commonsense stuff that apparently we all know.....

Knowing something and doing it are two different things.

Virtually everyone who goes through a red light knows it's wrong. But they do it anyway.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

I agree the driving standards are pretty poor, I see it every day while driving a truck/trailer, one thing that shows up the lack of roadcraft is how people don't look ahead, in a truck you can often see things happening before others.
I wait for the cars in front to react......, the average drivers anticipation seems to be six foot in front off their bumper
another thing that seems to becoming popular is stopping on a main highway to turn right, while they wait for oncoming car to go past, they just don't seem to have any self preservation.
I was taught to pull off the road and wait till all clear,
so yes I think driving instruction is needed, and as previously mentioned needs to be mandated to get people to actually do it

[jellywrestler]

All the basic stuff. Nobody is going to pay $300 to learn basic stuff, but it's the basics done well that make for a good road user.


most people have a tv so why isn't there anything on there? all they do is call you a murderer for going 2km's over the limit

seems to me a very good medium to get some basic defensive driving tactics across, and tips for example why is your indicator flashing twice as fast as normal? it's a safety device to let you know one indictor is out, and you may be turning in front of a car thinking they know you're turning.
why not an advert on that subject?
instead they treat us like criminals

[Berries]

NZTA don't like my road safety suggestion as they tell me they don't like to change behaviour through fear but.......

I reckon once they have removed the patients/bodies from any rural crash they leave the car where it is upside down in a paddock or wrapped around a tree. If the car comes to rest on the road just push it on to the shoulder and leave it there.

We see all this crap about the road toll but unless you see it with your own eyes it is meaningless. Leave the cars where they are, make people think about what happened and the impact it had on everyone involved.

[AllanB]

Knowing something and doing it are two different things.

Virtually everyone who goes through a red light knows it's wrong. But they do it anyway.

I ran a redlight last night in error in the car. My error completely, post work drive home, not paying attention, something went green, I nailed it and halfway through the intersection gaining speed I realise it was a turn arrow green.

He sits and waits to see if a camera ticket arrives ........

Shit happens.

[FJRider]

... I was taught to pull off the road and wait till all clear,


so yes I think driving instruction is needed, and as previously mentioned needs to be mandated to get people to actually do it

Mandated or not ... if people can't manage to adhere to the simplest of the road rules (like stopping at stop signs, and giving way to other traffic when required) people will continue to die in ever increasing numbers.

Actions on the road that are based on personal convenience, combined with poor decision making ... is a recipe for pain and/or death. An accident I witnessed after a dude didn't give way at a very busy intersection, controlled by a give way sign, "I was late for work and was in a hurry. BUT ... THEY must have been speeding. There was plenty of time for THEM to slow down".

Simple fact is ... no matter the amount (or quality) of the instruction given ... gets overridden by choices that ... although they know aren't right ... they have it done many times before with no issues. So why not now ....

[Murray]

As a 16- 17 yr old any wet day in the Hutt Valley, all roads were a skid pan !!! Thats how we grew up !

Yep Wainuiomta Hill was a great training course

[jasonu]

Shit happens.

Cold comfort for the poor cunt you might have flattened had it gone a little differently.

[Voltaire]

Google suggests that driver distraction is #1 with speed, driver impairment, rain, recklessness etc following on.

Speed is easy to measure and invoice, which I found out recently riding back from Whangarei a couple of weeks back, wet day on the bike.

I was actually the slowest vehicle on the road for the journey and was passed by quite a few of those fancy go anywhere lifestyle utes.

[roogazza]

I wouldn't panic too much yet ! you really think this Genter bitch will get this thru ?

I don't take too much interest in the news they feed us.

[AllanB]

Cold comfort for the poor cunt you might have flattened had it gone a little differently.

400 odd a year die on the roads probably 40,000 have near misses blissfully unaware of it.

No amount of experience, training or education will prevent the occasional brain fart when you place a human behind a mobile device, be it a scooter, bicycle, motorcycle, car, truck, plane .....

America is run by a man with a orange comb-over by public choice.

[FJRider]

400 odd a year die on the roads probably 40,000 have near misses blissfully unaware of it.

How many near misses do you need to have before "Shit Happens" ... ??


No amount of experience, training or education will prevent the occasional brain fart when you place a human behind a mobile device, be it a scooter, bicycle, motorcycle, car, truck, plane .....

So ... when you do it it's a "Brain Fart" and is both acceptable and expected ... would you say the same if you were on the receiving end of a "Brain Fart" .. ???

The Mobile device that kills too many people in vehicles ... is the cell phone.


America is run by a man with a orange comb-over by public choice.

If you have the money ... you can buy anything in America.

[jasonu]

Google suggests that driver distraction is #1 with speed, driver impairment, rain, recklessness etc following on.

Speed is easy to measure and invoice, which I found out recently riding back from Whangarei a couple of weeks back, wet day on the bike.

I was actually the slowest vehicle on the road for the journey and was passed by quite a few of those fancy go anywhere lifestyle utes.

What is a lifestyle ute?

[AllanB]

So ... when you do it it's a "Brain Fart" and is both acceptable and expected ... would you say the same if you were on the receiving end of a "Brain Fart" .. ???


Acceptable no, but unfortunately not unexpected. Which is why as motorcyclists in particular when riding we generally have a higher degree of observational awareness of other road users. Yet as a collective also ironically appear to accept a higher risk by riding faster than Joe Public in their family sedan. People are complex.

Each successive government waxes on and pours millions into anti speed campaigns and enforcement yet this years road toll is currently a shocker.

If you sit in any new car in a dealer showroom that car now features multiple electronic devices designed for your convenience and to distract you - that fancy touch screen you are using at kmph to select your music, multi zone aircon adjustment buttons, and a disturbing interest it a dial knob that does it all (and to do it all you need to look at a pretty coloured screen).


I watched a new Bentley urban WD thingy yesterday being driven like a armored car. No doubt the owner felt very secure in their expensive bubble environment. A bloody awful looking thing it was too - hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of wank.

[AllanB]

What is a lifestyle ute?

Possibly one of the most popular ones on the road presently is the Ford Ranger. With the large family sedans gone from Ford and Holden these are the go-to family lifestyle ute now.

Every now and then you see a builder or farmer driving one too!

https://www.ford.co.nz/offers/?searchid=aw_1050463592_53135733018_341138564579_b __g__%2Bford%20%2Branger%20nz&gclid=CjwKCAjwlujnBRBlEiwAuWx4LfHRS3OQObmF0l6CQJ6b H8ta4kunFjqdKnzb_oDsyxZwItFqSn-5mBoCwZUQAvD_BwE

[jasonu]

Possibly one of the most popular ones on the road presently is the Ford Ranger. With the large family sedans gone from Ford and Holden these are the go-to family lifestyle ute now.

Every now and then you see a builder or farmer driving one too!

https://www.ford.co.nz/offers/?searchid=aw_1050463592_53135733018_341138564579_b __g__%2Bford%20%2Branger%20nz&gclid=CjwKCAjwlujnBRBlEiwAuWx4LfHRS3OQObmF0l6CQJ6b H8ta4kunFjqdKnzb_oDsyxZwItFqSn-5mBoCwZUQAvD_BwE

AKA full size quad cab pick up.

[Voltaire]

What is a lifestyle ute?

Tinted windows, leather seats, lots of graphics, overly large wheels, a tinted window canopy/deck cover and liner to stop it getting any scratches. For actual work you buy a Great Wall or some other quickly depreciated mid range vehicle.
( only jealous as I drive a 20 year old van with a cassette player:msn-wink:)

[FJRider]

Acceptable no, but unfortunately not unexpected. Which is why as motorcyclists in particular when riding we generally have a higher degree of observational awareness of other road users. Yet as a collective also ironically appear to accept a higher risk by riding faster than Joe Public in their family sedan. People are complex.

Being seen as risk takers is usually why we ride motorcycles. The degree of risk is our choice. :devil2:

In most cases ... it's not because it's a cheap form of transport. Those days are long gone. <_<

Observational awareness is usually a learned habit ... often told of during training courses and discussions ... But learned importance effectively after an off. <_<


Each successive government waxes on and pours millions into anti speed campaigns and enforcement yet this years road toll is currently a shocker.

And NONE of those involved (regardless of actual fault) could say they didn't know that could happen. Just that it just wouldn't possibly happen to THEM ... <_<


If you sit in any new car in a dealer showroom that car now features multiple electronic devices designed for your convenience and to distract you - that fancy touch screen you are using at kmph to select your music, multi zone aircon adjustment buttons, and a disturbing interest it a dial knob that does it all (and to do it all you need to look at a pretty coloured screen).

I wonder if voice activated controls might feature in vehicles soon for such things. :2thumbsup

Most economy vehicles are basically single use items nowadays. Crumple zones aren't intended to be un-crumpled ... :whistle:


I watched a new Bentley urban WD thingy yesterday being driven like a armored car. No doubt the owner felt very secure in their expensive bubble environment. A bloody awful looking thing it was too - hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of wank.

A word of caution to drivers of these vehicles ... there are bigger things on the road than them ... <_<

[AllanB]

A word of caution to drivers of these vehicles ... there are bigger things on the road than them ... <_<


Which reminds me of a article on TV earlier in the year - trucking association NZ or something saying they are struggling to get enough drivers and experienced drivers who have been on the roads for years are quitting due to the high increase in stupid drivers hell bent on collecting their trucks on the open road. It was supported by some in truck cam images showing some very questionable passing decisions by people.

There is the brain-fart moment then just brain-diarrhea!

[gsxr]

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/no-fatal-crashes-on-nz-s-110km-h-roads-since-opening-18-months-ago/?fbclid=IwAR03-4dzxs0Q8bc6yCoDa5MwUnS7RgcS8xe6LZu9bdzFu-GlbLr_KF_UOk0

[rastuscat]

I wonder if there are any stats or study on the effects of slower speeds on driver concentration? Do they feel safer at lower speeds so compensate by driving with less attention than is required at 'normal' speeds?

Maybe not, but there are plenty of examples of lowering the average speed leading to lower crash rates and lower injury rates.

[rastuscat]

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/no-fatal-crashes-on-nz-s-110km-h-roads-since-opening-18-months-ago/?fbclid=IwAR03-4dzxs0Q8bc6yCoDa5MwUnS7RgcS8xe6LZu9bdzFu-GlbLr_KF_UOk0

It's not increasing the speed that reduced the crashes. It's spending gazillions of dollars on making the roads safer.

If we were all awesome road users using awesome roads, I'd be keen for increasing speeds. But we aren't.

[Scuba_Steve]

Maybe not, but there are plenty of examples of lowering the average speed leading to lower crash rates and lower injury rates.

Is there any not done by those with vested financial interest in the speed scam?
Cause I've seen a lot showing no measurable effect to negative effects (like Northern Territories OzzyLand) when speeds are lowered.
The biggest crash factors (when speed is a large shareholder) is the speed differential (when other vehicles are involved, and this can be result of too slower speed too) and too fast for conditions/ability

[FJRider]

Maybe not, but there are plenty of examples of lowering the average speed leading to lower crash rates and lower injury rates.

Two vehicles travelling at 80 km/hr ... crash head on into each other. Impact speed of 160 km/hr ... <_<

Definitely survivable ... right .. ?? :confused:

[F5 Dave]

But I like going places faster. Right. I'm going to vote for Simeon Bridges. There. I said it.

[Ocean1]

Sadly, common sense has left the building.
We "train" citizens to pass the driving test but NOT driving skills.

The severity of "lack of driver ability" on NZ roads is not insurmountable, IF a government has the balls to draw a line in the sand on this issue. Unfortunately we are continually assaulted by the propaganda ministry response, unstead of coming out and stating "KIWI DRIVERS ARE INEPT".



She is a fucking canadian retard with no idea apart from bad ideas. Send the cunt home.


Sadly we have to factor in the "net-nanny" of vehicle stability control assistance... which takes over when IT feels right.
Try using power to get out of a situation & getting "computer says NO" in response. I'm still looking at ways to deactivate it on my car.

Forgetting to turn wheelie control off and then trying to loft the 1290's front wheel over a rock crossing sides on a gravel road resulted in a dented header. Woulda been fine if KTM's safety Nazis hadn't decided everything had t default to "safe" every time you shut the bastard thing down.

[Ocean1]

Yep Wainuiomta Hill was a great training course

So over we went, Trev....

[speedpro]

Assuming 2 identical vehicles, closing speed 160km/h, impact speed 80km/h. Just like driving into an immovable object. You would of course still end up dead.

If we just pretend for a moment that both vehicles remained on their own side of the road, the closing speed would be close to 160km/h, but there would be no impact speed due to there being no impact. This 2nd scenario it makes no difference what speed either vehicle is traveling at.

The head on smash in Wellington earlier this year where someone was going the wrong way on the motorway, if they had both been keeping left they would have passed each other harmlessly. As it was the speed the innocent party was going made absolutely no difference.

The whole "safer speed", "slow down", road safety message is the biggest load of garbage, and I suspect(no data), results in very little benefit.

What happened to the road toll when the speed limit was reduced to 80km/h years ago when imported fuel costs jumped? Supposedly the lower speed was going to result in lower fuel consumption, which I doubt was actually an effect, all to do with thermodynamic efficiencies of engines at various speeds and loads. Another example of being seen to be doing something, like lowering the speed limit, again, now.

[pete376403]

What happened to the road toll when the speed limit was reduced to 80km/h years ago when imported fuel costs jumped? Supposedly the lower speed was going to result in lower fuel consumption, which I doubt was actually an effect, all to do with thermodynamic efficiencies of engines at various speeds and loads. Another example of being seen to be doing something, like lowering the speed limit, again, now.

Are there any stats to show the road toll changed during the fuel crisis 80km/h period? That would have been a good demonstration of how changing nothing other than the speed limit works, or doesn't work, wrt road crashes. Once the limit was reinstated to 100, did crash stats show a comparable jump?

[Scuba_Steve]

Are there any stats to show the road toll changed during the fuel crisis 80km/h period? That would have been a good demonstration of how changing nothing other than the speed limit works, or doesn't work, wrt road crashes. Once the limit was reinstated to 100, did crash stats show a comparable jump?

Here's one of the many clippings I have laying round

In the early 1970s, as a result of the 1973 oil shock, both New Zealand and the United States imposed new, lower speed limits in an effort to save fuel. In New Zealand?s case the limit dropped from 60 mph (100ks) to 50mph (80ks), while in the US it dropped to 55 mph - the so-called "double nickel".

In the ten years leading up to the drop in the New Zealand speed limit, an average of 608 New Zealanders had died on the roads each year.
In the ten years that followed the drop from 100 kph down to 80 kph, an average of 707 New Zealanders died on the roads each year: in other words, the new, lower New Zealand speed limit coincided with a 17% increase in road deaths. Starting to get the picture?
Then, in 1985, the New Zealand Government decided to raise the speed limit again, from 80kph back up to 100kph. The result?

Well, admittedly there was a big jump in road deaths that year as people got used to driving their cars faster, but it also coincided with boom times in the economy and a big increase in drink-driving offences.
However, over the next ten years, the average number of New Zealanders killed on the roads each year was 699, a slight drop when compared with the ten years under a lower speed limit.

Could it actually be that allowing cars to drive faster decreases the road toll overall? Sure, the chances of surviving a crash at a higher speed were much slimmer for those involved, but perhaps the higher speeds contributed to smoother traffic flows and less road rage.
One of the reasons that road toll statistics supplied by the old Ministry of Transport, and latterly the LTSA, have been misleading is because the LTSA does not measure "deaths per vehicle kilometre travelled", which is the only true measure of whether the road toll is really going up or down.

For example, if 1000 people die on the roads each year, during which time the nation?s cars have travelled a million kilometres, the ratio is one death per thousand kilometres. You can then compare that figure to a subsequent year when, perhaps, 1100 people were killed but (because of cheaper petrol maybe) the nation?s cars travelled 1.3 million kilometres.
The LTSA would simplistically tell the public "the road toll has increased", without realising that the "death per kilometre ratio" has dropped to 1 per 1181 kilometres. The truth in such a situation is that the road toll has dropped in real terms, by about 20 percent.
The closest New Zealand gets to any worthwhile statistics at all are the figures that measure the ratio of deaths to the number of cars on the road.

For the ten years that our maximum speed limit was only 80 kilometres per hour, an average of 3.75 New Zealanders were killed each year for every ten thousand cars on the road.

For the ten years after that, when the speed limit increased to 100 kph, the average number of deaths dropped by 12%, to just 3.27 deaths per 10,000 vehicles.

The ratio of people injured per 10,000 vehicles tells a similar story: during the low speed era, an average of 100.6 injuries. During the high speed era that followed: just 80.5. A twenty percent drop in injuries in real terms when cars were allowed to travel faster.

[jasonu]

Two vehicles travelling at 80 km/hr ... crash head on into each other. Impact speed of 160 km/hr ... <_<
:confused:

Nope it doesn't work like that. Look it up.

[rastuscat]

Nope it doesn't work like that. Look it up.

That'll make an interesting read. Where should I look? I always thought 80 plus 80 = 160.

[F5 Dave]

Double the mass.

So at the extreme let's say you are a blow fly travelling at 80kph (wow) and you hit a truck. Your potential energy is close to zero.

A Brick wall has a lot of Mass but velocity of zero. It will do no work on you.(unfortunately it is at rest and to move it you need to accelerate a large mass instantaneously which is doomed to failure).

Now swap a few of the vehicles around and run them into things at various speeds.

[nzspokes]

That'll make an interesting read. Where should I look? I always thought 80 plus 80 = 160.In this case 80 + 80 dosen't make 160.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[F5 Dave]

Well it does make 160, . . . but that ignores the energy imparted.

[rastuscat]

Well it does make 160, . . . but that ignores the energy imparted.

So a Hilux penis extender travelling at 80 hits an equivalent Hilux penis extender also travelling at 80, directly head on.

Isn't the impact equal on both parts, and equivalent to a Hilux penis extender hitting a solid fixed object at 160?

[nzspokes]

So a Hilux penis extender travelling at 80 hits an equivalent Hilux penis extender also travelling at 80, directly head on.

Isn't the impact equal on both parts, and equivalent to a Hilux penis extender hitting a solid fixed object at 160?No, you're penis is hitting at 80kph.

Still hurt though.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Scuba_Steve]

So a Hilux penis extender travelling at 80 hits an equivalent Hilux penis extender also travelling at 80, directly head on.

Isn't the impact equal on both parts, and equivalent to a Hilux penis extender hitting a solid fixed object at 160?

Na, it's based on the 2 equal forces cancelling each other out & so each vehicle only takes the impact of their speed
HOWEVER in the real world things aren't equal so the penis extender at 80km/h hitting a 1990' Toymota Corolla at 80km/h is gonna produce different results for each party (the 'Rolla taking the bigger hit) same way us bikes don't fair too well regardless of speed.

[jasonu]

That'll make an interesting read. Where should I look? I always thought 80 plus 80 = 160.

Ask the internet.
I'm a little surprised an ex popo doesn't know this.

[Scubbo]

just wish they'd police mobile phone users while driving etc / be easy on some popo bikes with gopros, the public video and post to youtube all the time why the feck dont the police >_>?

[speedpro]

Ask the internet.
I'm a little surprised an ex popo doesn't know this.

Speed Kills seems to be the only known thing today. I seen it on the TV

[GazzaH]

Well yes, it's true.

Stationary objects don't collide.

[Taxythingy]

So a HPE travelling at 80 hits an equivalent HPE also travelling at 80, directly head on.

Isn't the impact equal on both parts, and equivalent to a HPE hitting a solid fixed object at 160?

Nope. A vehicle hitting a solid object at 80 km/h decelerates over whatever time it takes to get through the crumple zone. Replace the solid object with an equal vehicle moving at 80 km/h in the opposite direction. The centre of the colliding vehicles remains stationary, just like the solid object model, so each vehicle again decelerates over the same time as when hitting the solid object. The result is the same forces applied to each vehicle and therefore the occupants.

[F5 Dave]

So a Hilux penis extender travelling at 80 hits an equivalent Hilux penis extender also travelling at 80, directly head on.

Isn't the impact equal on both parts, and equivalent to a Hilux penis extender hitting a solid fixed object at 160?

So yes for the first part, and no for the 2nd.

Read my post before. Draw a series of pictures. Start with the blowfly. Hitting another blowfly.
Scale it up.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W937NM11o8

[Taxythingy]

Of course, as ScubaSteve noted, a large number of collisions occur between vehicles of different sizes (and the rest).

If a 1 tonne vehicle at 80 km/h collides with a 2 tonne vehicle at 80 km/h, the result is the 1 tonne vehicle moving backwards at 26 km/h. That means it effectively decelerated from 106 km/h, which is a little less than double the energy.

So if you are in a small car and faced with deciding between colliding with an immovable object or the afore-mentioned HPE, chose the immovable object.

[BMWST?]

....................................

If lowering the speed causes less accidents, maybe they aren't going far enough, maybe speed limits should be 60 on highways and 20 on town streets.
its not even about that.They know that if two objects collide at a lower speed the outcomes are much much better for the mushy beings involved in said impact

[rastuscat]

Really interesting video. It's challenging to be wrong, but hey, it's a learner.

Back in the real world, would you rather be hit by a car doing 50, or a car doing 30?

I know, I know, we'd rather not be hit by a car.

[jellywrestler]

Really interesting video. It's challenging to be wrong, but hey, it's a learner.

Back in the real world, would you rather be hit by a car doing 50, or a car doing 30?

I know, I know, we'd rather not be hit by a car.

i'd rather that the person was attentive, dumbing down speed limits means people are driving around in a daze, not concentrating etc

[Temporary-Kiwi]

I remember when they proposed raising the speed limit from 80kph, the AA asked a german road safety advisor to assess our roads for a suggested limit -he suggested setting it at 140kph, he was shot down of course, but that speed is in my opinion realistic, but that's relevant to the driver being of reasonable skill level , who is paying attention and thinking ahead.
I used to say to people that they should remove the airbags from the steering wheel and put a large steel spike there instead, then people would pay a lot more attention and would be really keen on not crashing !!!

[rastuscat]

I remember when they proposed raising the speed limit from 80kph, the AA asked a german road safety advisor to assess our roads for a suggested limit -he suggested setting it at 140kph, he was shot down of course, but that speed is in my opinion realistic, but that's relevant to the driver being of reasonable skill level , who is paying attention and thinking ahead

I'd also support a higher speed limit, if we were all awesome drivers/riders, who never made mistakes and always paid attention.

Until then, I'm okay with slowing bad drivers down.

[nzspokes]

Until then, I'm okay with slowing bad drivers down.

Im ok with it as well. As long as motorcycles can go 140.

[BMWST?]

Assuming 2 identical vehicles, closing speed 160km/h, impact speed 80km/h. Just like driving into an immovable object. You would of course still end up dead.

If we just pretend for a moment that both vehicles remained on their own side of the road, the closing speed would be close to 160km/h, but there would be no impact speed due to there being no impact. This 2nd scenario it makes no difference what speed either vehicle is traveling at.

The head on smash in Wellington earlier this year where someone was going the wrong way on the motorway, if they had both been keeping left they would have passed each other harmlessly. As it was the speed the innocent party was going made absolutely no difference.

The whole "safer speed", "slow down", road safety message is the biggest load of garbage, and I suspect(no data), results in very little benefit.

What happened to the road toll when the speed limit was reduced to 80km/h years ago when imported fuel costs jumped? Supposedly the lower speed was going to result in lower fuel consumption, which I doubt was actually an effect, all to do with thermodynamic efficiencies of engines at various speeds and loads. Another example of being seen to be doing something, like lowering the speed limit, again, now.
the road toll dropped because people were doing fewer kilometres,similar things have happened recently when fuel prices have spiked

[rastuscat]

You guys heard of VKT? It's vehicle kms travelled, in millions of km.

342151

Deaths have been going up, even relative to VKT. The number of deaths and serious injuries can be only partly attributed to the extra vehicle KMs being driven.

[Ocean1]

Deaths have been going up, even relative to VKT.

Slightly. For three years. Prior to which it's been going down for decades, 90% of which is engineering related.

Let's not overreact here, we're still well below the fatalities we managed 10 years ago, when you would have had to drive the length of NZ an average of sixty two thousand times to have a decent chance of popping your clogs.

[Voltaire]

I remember when they proposed raising the speed limit from 80kph, the AA asked a german road safety advisor to assess our roads for a suggested limit -he suggested setting it at 140kph, he was shot down of course, but that speed is in my opinion realistic, but that's relevant to the driver being of reasonable skill level , who is paying attention and thinking ahead.
I used to say to people that they should remove the airbags from the steering wheel and put a large steel spike there instead, then people would pay a lot more attention and would be really keen on not crashing !!!

I doubt any German would have said that.
I've ridden/driven in Germany and its several levels above the windy twisty goat tracks we have here as well as much more disciplined drivers ( saying that my last time there was before dumb phones)
Portugal, Spain an Greece is more like here.
80 would be fine, just leave home earlier and enjoy the drive/ride.:msn-wink:

[Temporary-Kiwi]

another factor for more recent years road toll could be the amount of immigrants who are not used to out roading network and rules .
if we lower speed limits it won't make people better drivers, it will only compound the problem, I'm sure that driving at higher speeds can increase the level of skill , to simply associate less deaths by driving slower is ignoring the cause of crashes - crap driving skills, and lack of due care , saying that won't improve via better training is just copping out , every human endeavour is carried out more efficiently by training

[jasonu]

I'd also support a higher speed limit, if we were all awesome drivers/riders, who never made mistakes and always paid attention.

Until then, I'm okay with slowing bad drivers down.

Or show the O for orsum drivers they ain't all that and fix the crap roads.

[Scuba_Steve]

I'd also support a higher speed limit, if we were all awesome drivers/riders, who never made mistakes and always paid attention.
Ain't never gonna happen, we're human & even if we weren't fuckups happen & they're always gonna happen



Until then, I'm okay with slowing bad drivers down.
How bout we just stop giving those people licences (which are often the slow on the road anyhows) & let the rest of us get on with it without the scams

[Scubbo]

You guys heard of VKT? It's vehicle kms travelled, in millions of km.

342151

Deaths have been going up, even relative to VKT. The number of deaths and serious injuries can be only partly attributed to the extra vehicle KMs being driven.


the result of smartphones.

[AllanB]

and fix the crap roads.

Amazing that we accept the rubbish we call roads.

[speedpro]

amazing that crashes still occur on perfectly good roads

[AllanB]

amazing that crashes still occur on perfectly good roads

Apparently that is solely due to speed ........

I wonder what the crash stats are for the German autobahns

[Temporary-Kiwi]

looked up some international stats - were on 10 deaths per 100,000 vehicles, Germany was 6.4, Spain 5.7, lowest countries were Sweden, Switzerland, Norway , uk were approx half our rate, worst county was Somalia 6500+ !@!
as to our roads quality, the engineering levels are fairly good, quality of surface not so great, our heavy transportation cause most of the damage to that, we do
have a fairly extensive network in comparison to population, so that's going to limit maintenance standards

[rastuscat]

Amazing that we accept the rubbish we call roads.

Amazing that we are okay for crap drivers to drive at higher speeds on crap roads.

[Voltaire]

Apparently that is solely due to speed ........

I wonder what the crash stats are for the German autobahns

The good thing about German Autobahns is the ones I recall have 3 lanes and you only use the outside ( fast) lane for overtaking and trucks stay in the left lane.
they also don't have the two directions side by side on some either, separated by some distance.
If your on the Autobahn its to get somewhere fast, if your not in a hurry the secondary roads are good too.


I recall an Ogri cartoon with a biker dropping his leathers to his mate showing a mercedes badge impression on his arse, Ogri said " first time on the Autobahn then"

[Moi]

A little background to CarCrash101...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Ta_WJUGn0

[AllanB]

Amazing that we are okay for crap drivers to drive at higher speeds on crap roads.

Doesn't matter how good the road is when you pull out to pass a truck on a blind corner .....

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12240129&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=nznewsrss&utm_campaign=NZH%20Brand&utm_content=tdob

Side note - I am constantly amazed at the number of motorcyclists I see on the open road passing just before blind corners (or into them for that matter).

[Conquiztador]

It is the lack of imagination, real knowledge, funds and supporting relevant data that stops us making roads safer for all. Until someone wakes up and realises this we will keep on getting more razor wires, lower speed limits, speed cameras and "Speed Kills" showed down our throats.

But soon we will not have to worry as cars will become self driving and be impossible to crash... makes me wonder how motorbikes will be brought in to that... or perhaps they will just become banned??

[russd7]

its interesting to read the comments here but there are some facts that can't be denied.
firstly I do not want the speed limit lowered, I remember the early eighties and the number of tickets I received from the MoT for speeding on my xr250 and that was not a fast bike. and I have an account for fun tax that arrived in the mail last week as well, so I am no angel.
but we do need to remember there are a lot more vehicles on our roads today than there were back then.

this causes a whole raft of problems and issues that are hard to get away from,
firstly the obvious one, I used to be able to ride somewhere and not see many vehicles coming the other way which meant that even on the trusty 250 I had plenty of room to pass anything that I caught up with. not today, even on the zzr I have to think twice.
there wasn't the distractions like cell phones and in car touchscreens displaying gps etc so people were more involved with their driving rather than with their screens,
with increased traffic also comes increased road degradation, not only trucks that damage roads, but hey lets just lay the blame on them.
there are a lot more Remuera tractors on the roads and these are getting bigger as well, personally I think unless someone has a serious need for that type of vehicle then they should be banned. I farmed most of my life and even then struggled to justify those bloody things.
with increased traffic comes more inexperienced drivers and a lot less opportunities for them to fuck up without doing serious harm, anyone that got their license before the nineties will have made numerous mistakes that they learnt from but got away with because of less traffic.
modern cars handle way superior to the HQ holdens and XA falcons that I had when I was younger but this also gives young and not so young drivers a belief that they can handle a car.
lets face it we all know speed does not kill but it does seriously alter any out come of a mishap.
our roads are shit because councils and the land transport are screwing the roading companies down so they have to find the cheapest option in order to win contracts,
add to that the extra wear and tear from more traffic and we have roads that have become slippery as hell.
my bit of rambling

[Scuba_Steve]

It is the lack of imagination, real knowledge, funds and supporting relevant data that stops us making roads safer for all. Until someone wakes up and realises this we will keep on getting more razor wires, lower speed limits, speed cameras and "Speed Kills" showed down our throats.

But soon we will not have to worry as cars will become self driving and be impossible to crash... makes me wonder how motorbikes will be brought in to that... or perhaps they will just become banned??

Self driving cars will still crash it just should be at a much lower rate. Nothings infallible
They're already trying to price bikes out the market. I would assume they'll continue this while introducing obscene laws until they get numbers low enough a ban won't be looked at twice by 95% of people

[nerrrd]

But soon we will not have to worry as cars will become self driving and be impossible to crash... makes me wonder how motorbikes will be brought in to that... or perhaps they will just become banned??

Not going to be soon, the average age for the private vehicle fleet is apparently 14 years and that's for a mature, proven technology.

So say another few years for them to get self driving technology accepted by the mainstream, then another few for the manufacturers to ramp up production, then another few for sales to grow, then another few for a decent number of used cars to become available, then add another 14 years to that before most people here can afford one.

And that's all dependent on the self driving tech being ready to go - call me cynical but I suspect those involved are still having to hype where they're at to attract interest/investment and the existing systems may not be useable enough for widespread adoption (yet). Certainly the 'self driving car' featured in the Chorus ads looks singularly unimpressive to me.

If the government gets involved though, they could speed things up a bit with taxes/subsidies/tolls/prohibited zones etc.

I don't think a ban will be required for motorcycles, the ACC levy precedent is well established now so all they need to do is keep ramping it up until motorcycling becomes unaffordable for most. And reducing the numbers of bikes on the road will definitely have a positive effect on the road toll numbers, sad but true.

I don't see the need to lower the speed limit (the cars etc which pass me on a regular basis as I try to stick to the limit rarely go flying off the road) but if the people who know stuff can demonstrate that doing so will reduce the level of accident or injury then I would struggle to object.

[Scubbo]

its not gonna be user owns the vehicle with self driving... it's gonna be similar to the UBER model where you just hail / it picks you up then it goes offline to charge when it wants etc.... personal ownership of primary transport will cease --- once the fleet is big enough and CONVENIENT ENOUGH you'll see car sales / driveables gone then outlawed soon after

[nerrrd]

its not gonna be user owns the vehicle with self driving... it's gonna be similar to the UBER model where you just hail / it picks you up then it goes offline to charge when it wants etc.... personal ownership of primary transport will cease --- once the fleet is big enough and CONVENIENT ENOUGH you'll see car sales / driveables gone then outlawed soon after

Sure, but I doubt even that is likely to happen 'soon' (especially in NZ). Still a long, long way from mass production (in the numbers that would be needed for that scenario) from what I've seen.

And will that model even be economically viable? That still has to be tested in practice.

[F5 Dave]

Ooh look, everyone wants to go to work. Now.

There will be a 2.4 hour wait. Recalculating. . . .



I wont be investing in a company that buys more cars to be unused for 80% of the time.

[Conquiztador]

Ooh look, everyone wants to go to work. Now.

There will be a 2.4 hour wait. Recalculating. . . .



I wont be investing in a company that buys more cars to be unused for 80% of the time.

I have the solution!! Public transport driverless busses... hey... wait...

[Temporary-Kiwi]

driverless bullshit ! , i don't know anyone who even thinks they're a good idea , let alone anyone who has admitted even to considering buying or using one

[Temporary-Kiwi]

as to driverless truck's, that "might" work on road going deliverys, but my job requires on farm deliveries, and no computer is going to get a truck around farm tracks, or get a stuck truck out of a bog hole....

[jasonu]

as to driverless truck's, that "might" work on road going deliverys, but my job requires on farm deliveries, and no computer is going to get a truck around farm tracks, or get a stuck truck out of a bog hole....

I think your job is safe.

[Swoop]

Some people are getting the message...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12241342

I think we have enough information to suggest that the speed call - that is the lowering of limits to 80km/h and 60km/h - to help solve our road toll is yet another headline-grabbing sop.

It's designed to make people look like they might be doing something, apart from just sitting around fretting.

The road toll, of course, is bad. But it has been worse. And the road toll gets a lot of attention, and increasingly so, not because we are determined to lower it, but because we haven't been able to lower it, and thus we've become fixated with it. Therefore, we come up with increasingly irrational answers.

So in just the past week we've been delivered a few facts. It's not like these facts haven't been available, it's just we don't pay attention to them until we have another bad weekend on the roads, the media pumps out yet another headline, and the road lobby groups leap on board.

There have been no deaths on the new multi-lane 110km/h roads with median strips. None. Conclusion? Quality roads reduce the death toll.

At the weekend, North Canterbury police picked up 16 drunks in two hours. Conclusion? No matter what the fines and warnings, there are some people who can't help themselves.

We are too soft on drunk drivers, but when you take that North Canterbury number, and look at the death and injury toll through drink and drugs, it is an alarming contribution.

And now, the quality of cars. Our fleet is old - the last time I checked about 14 years old. As a comparison, my understanding is that in Australia it's 10 years. What makes this worrisome is that second-hand cars are cheaper than Australia. So why aren't we buying better cars?

The opening up of the used Japanese market revolutionised car buying here. It made cars genuinely accessible. Unfortunately, we like cheap, and cheap is trouble. Dangerous cars with low safety ratings add to our injury and death rate.

And not to excuse the death or injury rate, but what most of us forget each time we angst publicly about it, is we have more people on the roads and we have never had more cars. More cars means more crashes.

So if we were to be honest about all this, there are things we can do. Build better roads, and get better cars.

And I'm not against Greg Murphy's idea of retesting people. How many accidents happen because people aren't awake or alert? They fundamentally treat driving as a lark, and do stupid things? How many of us would fail a test if we re-sat one after 30 years behind the wheel? How many crashes happen because a kid got a cooked-up engine because they're cheap, and drove like an idiot?

And we want to blame the speed limit? It's not the speed limit; it's what you do with speed. Many would agree 100km/h is fine if the road is straight, the day is fine, the traffic is clear, and your car is modern. It's not if it's round a tight bend you didn't see coming because you're stoned.

Myriad circumstances collectively make up the picture.

Our obsession with an ideologically driven grab-bag of headline solutions is a problem. We're all talk, no action.

[rastuscat]

Some people are getting the message...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=12241342

I think we have enough information to suggest that the speed call - that is the lowering of limits to 80km/h and 60km/h - to help solve our road toll is yet another headline-grabbing sop.

It's designed to make people look like they might be doing something, apart from just sitting around fretting.

The road toll, of course, is bad. But it has been worse. And the road toll gets a lot of attention, and increasingly so, not because we are determined to lower it, but because we haven't been able to lower it, and thus we've become fixated with it. Therefore, we come up with increasingly irrational answers.

So in just the past week we've been delivered a few facts. It's not like these facts haven't been available, it's just we don't pay attention to them until we have another bad weekend on the roads, the media pumps out yet another headline, and the road lobby groups leap on board.

There have been no deaths on the new multi-lane 110km/h roads with median strips. None. Conclusion? Quality roads reduce the death toll.

At the weekend, North Canterbury police picked up 16 drunks in two hours. Conclusion? No matter what the fines and warnings, there are some people who can't help themselves.

We are too soft on drunk drivers, but when you take that North Canterbury number, and look at the death and injury toll through drink and drugs, it is an alarming contribution.

And now, the quality of cars. Our fleet is old - the last time I checked about 14 years old. As a comparison, my understanding is that in Australia it's 10 years. What makes this worrisome is that second-hand cars are cheaper than Australia. So why aren't we buying better cars?

The opening up of the used Japanese market revolutionised car buying here. It made cars genuinely accessible. Unfortunately, we like cheap, and cheap is trouble. Dangerous cars with low safety ratings add to our injury and death rate.

And not to excuse the death or injury rate, but what most of us forget each time we angst publicly about it, is we have more people on the roads and we have never had more cars. More cars means more crashes.

So if we were to be honest about all this, there are things we can do. Build better roads, and get better cars.

And I'm not against Greg Murphy's idea of retesting people. How many accidents happen because people aren't awake or alert? They fundamentally treat driving as a lark, and do stupid things? How many of us would fail a test if we re-sat one after 30 years behind the wheel? How many crashes happen because a kid got a cooked-up engine because they're cheap, and drove like an idiot?

And we want to blame the speed limit? It's not the speed limit; it's what you do with speed. Many would agree 100km/h is fine if the road is straight, the day is fine, the traffic is clear, and your car is modern. It's not if it's round a tight bend you didn't see coming because you're stoned.

Myriad circumstances collectively make up the picture.

Our obsession with an ideologically driven grab-bag of headline solutions is a problem. We're all talk, no action.

The engineering of roads is the gold plated solution, as proven by the 110 kmh roads up North. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere.

Until then, should we just do nothing else? Really?

[Scuba_Steve]

The engineering of roads is the gold plated solution, as proven by the 110 kmh roads up North. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere.

Until then, should we just do nothing else? Really?

why does the "else" need to be running NZs biggest scam?
Why not harass bad drivers? Why not start with the worst/most dangerous & work up to the "just breaking arbitrarily rules" when they're all sorted?

[jasonu]

The engineering of roads is the gold plated solution, as proven by the 110 kmh roads up North. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere.

Until then, should we just do nothing else? Really?

If 'else' means writing a pile of money grabbing tickets or needlessly lowering the limits which will also equal writing money grabbing tickets then no. If 'else' means toughening up the license tests and slamming the actual dangerous drivers then yes.

[F5 Dave]

A definition of madness is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result .

[sidecar bob]

This point may have already been made, but I'm not about to wade through ten pages to find out.
In 1973 the road toll was 843, NZ's highest ever, the open road speed limit was 80kmh at that time.
Do these idiots not study history or precident?
I wonder if politicians wake up in the night & think "fuck, I've got a great idea I'm going to take that in to work tomorrow"

[rastuscat]

This point may have already been made, but I'm not about to wade through ten pages to find out.
In 1973 the road toll was 843, NZ's highest ever, the open road speed limit was 80kmh at that time.
Do these idiots not study history or precident?
I wonder if politicians wake up in the night & think "fuck, I've got a great idea I'm going to take that in to work tomorrow"

1973. No compulsory seatbelts. No airbags. No crumple zones. Drink driving was even more rampant than now.

Yeah, the good old days.

[Scubbo]

We're all talk, no action.

ahhh the kiwi way :yes:

[rastuscat]

A definition of madness is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result .

I thought that was the point. They are proposing something different.

[Voltaire]

1973. No compulsory seatbelts. No airbags. No crumple zones. Drink driving was even more rampant than now.

Yeah, the good old days.

1973. No obesity epidemic, no smartphones, less traffic, cheaper houses, Yeah the good old days.:msn-wink:

[rastuscat]

1973. No obesity epidemic, no smartphones, less traffic, cheaper houses, Yeah the good old days.:msn-wink:

If there was one genie I could put back in the bottle it would be smartphones.

Sent from my smartphone.

[FJRider]

... Sent from my smartphone.

Which Highway ... ?? <_<

[F5 Dave]

I thought that was the point. They are proposing something different.

There has been an ever tightening focus on speed for the last 20 years.
People from overseas are surprised at the enforcement.


News flash. It ain't doing shit.




The only time the road toll has dropped due to law change is compulsory seatbelts, and quite markedly.

[jellywrestler]

If there was one genie I could put back in the bottle it would be smartphones.

Sent from my smartphone.

the cops can but don't, one person standing on any set of lights in wellington would pick up several every light change

[jellywrestler]

The engineering of roads is the gold plated solution, as proven by the 110 kmh roads up North. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere.

Until then, should we just do nothing else? Really?

there's engineering and there's quality products used at the moment, northland roads have atrocious surfaces, no woner every time it rains there's deaths, that and the meth up there

[Swoop]

The engineering of roads is the gold plated solution, as proven by the 110 kmh roads up North. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere.

Until then, should we just do nothing else? Really?
The roads play very little part in being "safe". On some of those 110 roads there are a heck of a lot of skidmarks and impact evidence on the side of the road.

I'd hint that "the operator" was at fault...
Educating vehicle operators and testing them to a higher standard would be the start point.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

The engineering of roads is the gold plated solution, as proven by the 110 kmh roads up North. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere.

Until then, should we just do nothing else? Really?
having driven on three of these so called roads of significance, all 30 odd km's of them, Id say it's a stretch to say that due to the lack of deaths on them in the last couple of years, that they prove much at all, plus the ludicrous amount of $$$ that those few small sections of road cost, that they represent the future of roading in this country.
the lack of skill that is required to negotiate these roads will greatly aid the decrease in driving ability if they somehow become popular, this is in my opinion a good way to lessen a person's ability , I.e. that being to remove any kind of difficulty in any particular thing one is carrying out, never known that to make someone more skillful or highly competent, shouldn't that be the aim of all road users ?