Electric

[AllanB]

It's happening - out with the internal combustion in with electric.

I read today Audi are set to introduce something like 20 electric or electric assisted vehicles in the next year or two.

Ducati has plans for electric soon (by by boom boom), Harley of all makers are pushing one out very soon (no more potato potato).

The public perception is they are 'good' for the earth - zero emission and all that shit.

The majority of New Zealands harmful emissions are from animal farts.

It still rapes the earth of precious metals and produces toxic wastes making a electric vehicle.

Is this progress or marketing?

[OddDuck]

Was browsing electric pushbikes today, noticed that everything made by Giant is proudly touted as having Yamaha motor. Yamaha? What's going on here then?

[Berries]

I think you meant belch not fart.

[Laava]

It's happening - out with the internal combustion in with electric.

I read today Audi are set to introduce something like 20 electric or electric assisted vehicles in the next year or two.

Ducati has plans for electric soon (by by boom boom), Harley of all makers are pushing one out very soon (no more potato potato).

The public perception is they are 'good' for the earth - zero emission and all that shit.

The majority of New Zealands harmful emissions are from animal farts.

It still rapes the earth of precious metals and produces toxic wastes making a electric vehicle.

Is this progress or marketing?

Not to mention the amount of old cars we will have to dispose of....does that include heavy transport, trains and planes?

[AllanB]

I think you meant belch not fart.

I'm unsure which end. Highly likely both.

[MarkH]

Cows mainly produce methane, relatively short-lived in the atmosphere - CO2 is the opposite, stays in the atmosphere for a LONG time.

My biggest problem with electric motorcycles is the range (I'm happy with MOAR TORQUES!). I no longer use my motorcycle to commute (I'm using a Nissan Leaf that works out around $2.5k per year cheaper than the bike to run). I mainly use my motorcycle for touring (it is an adventure tourer, so it is designed for touring) and stopping to charge every 100km is not going to cut it for my next SI trip.

Before anyone says "but the range is now over 150km on some electric bikes" - not if we are looking at 100kph or more and fast charging to 80% (the charge rate drops off above 80% and it would take a LONG time to get to 100% charge). If you can realistically go for 100km on a charge, but there is a charger at 70km (and none at 90-100km) - you will end up having to make a stop where the charger is. So you charge up, then 70km later you realise that you had better stop to charge again because you can't make it to the next charger. When I returned from Invercargill (Burt Munro Rally) this year, I got back to the Waikato in 3 days, I hate to think of how much longer it would have taken on an electric bike.

Maybe in another decade or so there will be enough improvements in battery tech to make motorcycles with a lot more range (over 400km between charges would be very nice), but until then I'll need to stick with burning fossil fuels. At least in the meantime I'm burning around 1,000 litres per year less due to commuting by EV (and saving a bunch on servicing & maintenance).

[Blackbird]

Just got back from 3 weeks in China. In Shanghai, every scooter is electric and there are pedal-assist electric bikes everywhere. Not quite so pronounced in the provincial cities but still a big percentage. In Hong Kong, they still love their expensive I/C - engined cars but of the top end vehicles, Teslas had a noticeably strong presence.

[oldrider]

Just got back from 3 weeks in China. In Shanghai, every scooter is electric and there are pedal-assist electric bikes everywhere. Not quite so pronounced in the provincial cities but still a big percentage. In Hong Kong, they still love their expensive I/C - engined cars but of the top end vehicles, Teslas had a noticeably strong presence.

Begs the question - how do they generate all the extra (green?) mains power for charging all these electric vehicles that are saving the planet? :scratch:

[AllanB]

Begs the question - how do they generate all the extra (green?) mains power for charging all these electric vehicles that are saving the planet? :scratch:

Good question so I did some Googling. 66% of Chinas electric power is generated by coal. Burning the stuff no doubt ........ guess they don't have a Green Party in a Government.

[Voltaire]

Begs the question - how do they generate all the extra (green?) mains power for charging all these electric vehicles that are saving the planet? :scratch:

China is using a naturally renewable resource ( takes a bit of time) called coal.

I was in a discussion with an Au colleague last year about power savings and pointed out that NZ was over 80% renewable and AU was run

on coal. He disputed it but turns out they are only about 10% renewable.

[mashman]

Oh the maths of it all... No Soil & Water Before 100% Renewable Energy (https://lokisrevengeblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/no-soil-water-before-100-renwable-energy/)

Earth Overshoot stands at 1.7 sustainable planets each year for a reason. Greenwashing... Propaganda for renewables: a critique of a report by Oil Change International (www.feasta.org/2019/06/08/propaganda-for-renewables-a-critique-of-a-report-by-oil-change-international/)

Questioning the viability of a circular economy... Not so renewables (http://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2018/05/11/not-so-renewables/)

[mashman]

Cows mainly produce methane, relatively short-lived in the atmosphere - CO2 is the opposite, stays in the atmosphere for a LONG time.

"The most effective sink of atmospheric methane is the hydroxyl radical in the troposphere, or the lowest portion of Earth's atmosphere. As methane rises into the air, it reacts with the hydroxyl radical to create water vapor and carbon dioxide." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane)

Methane not so short-lived given that when it gives up its bonds, well...........

[Blackbird]

Begs the question - how do they generate all the extra (green?) mains power for charging all these electric vehicles that are saving the planet? :scratch:

Progressively switching away from coal. The Three Gorges dam now supplies 10% of China's energy needs and there are further hydro and wind power projects in the pipeline. I think I read that they only have 3 nuclear plants. The Three Gorges Dam project is staggering. I'll put some photos of it on my blog sometime in the next week. We encountered some noticeable airborne pollution around Wuhan which is an industrial centre as well as having a massive coal-fired power station but in most of the cities, any haze seemed to be heat and humidity-related whilst we were there.

Doing nett energy consumption during manufacture and lifetime use between EV's and I/C engined vehicles is pretty complex. Made even more difficult with fairly rapid improvements in battery technology and cost.

[jellywrestler]

It's happening - out with the internal combustion in with electric.

I read today Audi are set to introduce something like 20 electric or electric assisted vehicles in the next year or two.

Ducati has plans for electric soon (by by boom boom), Harley of all makers are pushing one out very soon (no more potato potato).

The public perception is they are 'good' for the earth - zero emission and all that shit.

The majority of New Zealands harmful emissions are from animal farts.

It still rapes the earth of precious metals and produces toxic wastes making a electric vehicle.

Is this progress or marketing?

we simply don't have tha ability to supply power to them if they become widespread. avergae house power supply, 63amps, cooking is 32 amps so half that, additioanlly the wires up and down the street aren't big enough either.

[AllanB]

we simply don't have tha ability to supply power to them if they become widespread. avergae house power supply, 63amps, cooking is 32 amps so half that, additioanlly the wires up and down the street aren't big enough either.

This is a good point. I have also wondered about the lack of reliability of our national system. I'm 54 and recall many winters of power rationing when demand outstrip supply. Thy usually blame the weather - not enough snow melt in the Southern Alps this year or the likes but what's been done to increase reliable capacity?

Mind you if they shut down the southern smelter and send that power to the rest of NZ we will probably be fine :2thumbsup China getting cheap NZ power from NZ .......

If we had a massive electric vehicle uptake over a short period can we supply reliable power to run those vehicles? Which may be one reason the Governments is not supporting funding subsidies of electric vehicles.

[Grumph]

we simply don't have tha ability to supply power to them if they become widespread. avergae house power supply, 63amps, cooking is 32 amps so half that, additioanlly the wires up and down the street aren't big enough either.

Ironically, the rural sector may be better prepared - at least local to me.
There's been a big uptake in the Central Plains water scheme - which has involved installing on farm pumps as well.
In a lot of cases this has meant an upgrade to existing power lines and supplies. The bigger dairy farms already had the capacity anyway.

If the electric farm bike guys were switched on, they'd be offering charging station installs at cost with every two bikes bought.

[AllanB]

Local bodies and Governments are so woried about votes that they ignore very sensible long term thinking.

Post earthquake in Christchurch and now north of us I though it would be the ideal time for every new or significantly repaired home to have to have compulsory solar power in some format - a minimum would be hot water heating.

But no, that extra $5-8k investment in the future would no doubt upset voters.

Also I noted recently that NONE of the Kiwibuild houses has any form of solar generation. Fucking Green Party is a weak ineffective piss-take of a party.

Short sighted, self serving bastards, more worried about going 5km over the speed limit than something practical.

As a side note the new house I purchased came fitted with one of these units for the hot water - bloody brilliant. https://www.icesolar.co.nz/

[george formby]

Local bodies and Governments are so woried about votes that they ignore very sensible long term thinking.

Post earthquake in Christchurch and now north of us I though it would be the odeal time for every new or significantly repaired home to have to have compulsory solar power in some format - a minimum would be hot water heating.

But no, that extra $5-8k investment in the future would no doubt upset voters.

Also I noted recently that NONE of the Kiwibuild houses has any form of solar generation. Fucking Green Party is a weak ineffective piss-take of a party.

Short sighted, self serving bastards, more worried about going 5km over the speed limit than something practical.

As a side note the new house I purchased came fitted with one of these units for the hot water - bloody brilliant. https://www.icesolar.co.nz/

Couldn't agree more. Big picture stuff is a hard sell and long term thinking is not our nations strong point.

[AllanB]

Couldn't agree more. Big picture stuff is a hard sell and long term thinking is not our nations strong point.

I think that has something to do with the short political term (only three years). When you get in you really can't do a lot of significant future thinking in the first three years of merit or you run the risk of being to radical and getting kicked out next election.

Four or five years would potentially change this, risk is you get a really useless government and are stuck with them for longer.

[Grumph]

Local bodies and Governments are so woried about votes that they ignore very sensible long term thinking.

Post earthquake in Christchurch and now north of us I though it would be the ideal time for every new or significantly repaired home to have to have compulsory solar power in some format - a minimum would be hot water heating.

But no, that extra $5-8k investment in the future would no doubt upset voters.

Also I noted recently that NONE of the Kiwibuild houses has any form of solar generation. Fucking Green Party is a weak ineffective piss-take of a party.

Short sighted, self serving bastards, more worried about going 5km over the speed limit than something practical.

As a side note the new house I purchased came fitted with one of these units for the hot water - bloody brilliant. https://www.icesolar.co.nz/

Yes and no....Some years back I was working for an outfit which installed solar water heating. I got talking at an energy seminar to the then co-leader of the Greens, the ChCh guy who died shortly afterward. He was keen on solar so I told him the facts - no subsidies, no certified installers etc...My boss reckoned it was wasted effort but the next year, bugger me, there was a subsidised course for installers - and a subsidy. Both since deleted but they certainly listened - and responded.
Given that the post quakes clusterfuck was National driven, you were never going to get more than the bare minimum of repair/replacement anyway.

[Graystone]

we simply don't have tha ability to supply power to them if they become widespread. avergae house power supply, 63amps, cooking is 32 amps so half that, additioanlly the wires up and down the street aren't big enough either.

Exactly, wiring for domestic is going to be a nightmare to bring into line. Instead of phone or internet like dial-up, it'll be heating/cooking or making it to work tomorrow...

[BMWST?]

Local bodies and Governments are so woried about votes that they ignore very sensible long term thinking.

Post earthquake in Christchurch and now north of us I though it would be the ideal time for every new or significantly repaired home to have to have compulsory solar power in some format - a minimum would be hot water heating.

But no, that extra $5-8k investment in the future would no doubt upset voters.

Also I noted recently that NONE of the Kiwibuild houses has any form of solar generation. Fucking Green Party is a weak ineffective piss-take of a party.

Short sighted, self serving bastards, more worried about going 5km over the speed limit than something practical.

As a side note the new house I purchased came fitted with one of these units for the hot water - bloody brilliant. https://www.icesolar.co.nz/

who pays? No insurance company will ever pay for something new which wasnt there before.
The poor old homeowner will be maxed out with just replacing what he had.
Are you suggesting a grant of some sort?.Solar enrgy is a bit tricky.Direct solar heating of your hot water is probablly the most efficient,because it reduces the draw on the whole grid at he same time .If you want storage it becomes a whole lot more expensive and complex.You need to remain tied to the grid because there will be times that you need supplementary power,and it is a good way to distribute excess power. I think most people dont realise that solar (pv) is really only good for relatively low current draws,stoves and hot water would draw the batteires down quickly

[AllanB]

who pays? No insurance company will ever pay for something new which wasnt there before.


If it's compliance driven the insurer would have to install it - just like insulation (that wasn't in a 1960's build), double glazing, compliant log burners (no open fires) etc etc.

[pete376403]

who pays? No insurance company will ever pay for something new which wasnt there before.
The poor old homeowner will be maxed out with just replacing what he had.
Are you suggesting a grant of some sort?.Solar enrgy is a bit tricky.Direct solar heating of your hot water is probablly the most efficient,because it reduces the draw on the whole grid at he same time .If you want storage it becomes a whole lot more expensive and complex.You need to remain tied to the grid because there will be times that you need supplementary power,and it is a good way to distribute excess power. I think most people dont realise that solar (pv) is really only good for relatively low current draws,stoves and hot water would draw the batteires down quickly

Solar with 6kwh battery plus gas (infinity) h/w and gas cooktops (the ovens are still electric) is working ok for me, short term the economics are less than ideal but I am hoping long term it will be better.

[Laava]

Solar with 6kwh battery plus gas (infinity) h/w and gas cooktops (the ovens are still electric) is working ok for me, short term the economics are less than ideal but I am hoping long term it will be better.
So you still have a mains connection? I have heard but un confirmed, that in the manawatu, if you so stand alone solar you have to compensate the council for doing so to the tune of around $10k?

[MarkH]

So you still have a mains connection? I have heard but un confirmed, that in the manawatu, if you so stand alone solar you have to compensate the council for doing so to the tune of around $10k?

Wait, what relevance is your electricity connection to the council?
Giving this a quick sniff, it fails the BS test.

[Laava]

Wait, what relevance is your electricity connection to the council?
Giving this a quick sniff, it fails the BS test.
Does sound like it doesn't it? It came about because a friend of ours just built an off the grid house in waipawa which is in the hawkes bay region, but not far north of the manawatu district. Anyhow, the solar guy that did her install told her that she was lucky not to be in manawatu because of this compensation thing you have to pay. Anyhow, may not be the council, but I don't see how it could be the power companies either. My main reason for asking Pete was to see if he would comment as it sounds like he is off the grid too...

[pete376403]

Does sound like it doesn't it? It came about because a friend of ours just built an off the grid house in waipawa which is in the hawkes bay region, but not far north of the manawatu district. Anyhow, the solar guy that did her install told her that she was lucky not to be in manawatu because of this compensation thing you have to pay. Anyhow, may not be the council, but I don't see how it could be the power companies either. My main reason for asking Pete was to see if he would comment as it sounds like he is off the grid too...

Still grid connected, 1 to sell the surplus power back ( I think we've made about $0.50 so far) and 2, so the lights stay on when the battery runs down. The reasons for going solar were altruistic as much as anything, doing my bit to try and save the planet.

[Laava]

So Pete was there anything in the way of a subsidy from the govt when you fitted the solar?
our friend in waipawa put the solar in because it was cheaper than getting the mains bought up the drive at the time. It is not capable of running the washing machine and dishwasher at the same time at any point. This is because of the battery size and the computer controlling it. The panels however are capable of running the washing machine with no draw on the battery in full sunshine. She loves it at this stage, so it will be interesting to see how it goes in the long run...

[pete376403]

So Pete was there anything in the way of a subsidy from the govt when you fitted the solar?
our friend in waipawa put the solar in because it was cheaper than getting the mains bought up the drive at the time. It is not capable of running the washing machine and dishwasher at the same time at any point. This is because of the battery size and the computer controlling it. The panels however are capable of running the washing machine with no draw on the battery in full sunshine. She loves it at this stage, so it will be interesting to see how it goes in the long run...

No subsidy from the govt, but no cost to me to install either - SolarZero.co.nz. 12 panel and a 6KwH battery/controller. A lot of people dont like the solarzero concept and tell me I'm being played for a sucker. Over the 20 years of the contract it will cost me about $30K + GST. plus the cost of any grid energy I use, less the rebate for any surplus. I will get a battery replacement at no cost mid term. A similar system from Harrisons will cost about the same up front.
The system has only been running a full two months and the weather has been largely crap so no real data on how well it could perform.

And this has strayed a long way from electric motorcycles!

[Laava]

No subsidy from the govt, but no cost to me to install either - SolarZero.co.nz. 12 panel and a 6KwH battery/controller. A lot of people dont like the solarzero concept and tell me I'm being played for a sucker. Over the 20 years of the contract it will cost me about $30K + GST. plus the cost of any grid energy I use, less the rebate for any surplus. I will get a battery replacement at no cost mid term. A similar system from Harrisons will cost about the same up front.
The system has only been running a full two months and the weather has been largely crap so no real data on how well it could perform.

And this has strayed a long way from electric motorcycles!
Here's one!
https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-2164851456.htm?rsqid=6f7c7426d91f40b8aa594b7663599 6cf-002
in fact that is the only one I could find on trade me apart from scooters and off road....

[Naki Rat]

Still grid connected, 1 to sell the surplus power back ( I think we've made about $0.50 so far) and 2, so the lights stay on when the battery runs down. The reasons for going solar were altruistic as much as anything, doing my bit to try and save the planet.The blog I posted on our website a few years back still has plenty of relevant info regarding PV installations: https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/index.php?route=module/blog/view&blog_id=7

We have since moved properties and have yet to install PV on our present lifestyle property. This is partly due to finances but also I'm waiting for storage units such as 'Powerwalls' to become more economically viable. Incidentally the PV installation on our last place was viewed as a major plus by the ingoing owner.

The ability to use your own generation rather than exporting it to grid at a fraction of its import cost remains the crux of PV viability!

Our previous 6kW PV set-up cost just over $30K in early 2012. I've seen quotes for 10kW ground mounted set-ups for a similar cost a couple of years ago and prices are still reducing.

The factors that have also changed for us are that the Nissan Leaf's battery has declined to about 75% SOH so we're looking at battery (or car) replacement in the next few years. Repurposing the old battery (if replaced) into a home storage set-up is possible. Currently we're with Ecotricity as a power supplier who have a plan suited to owners of EV & PV that includes an attractive off peak price so the Leaf is charged (by timer) from midnight on at around 16c/kWh.

[Laava]

How much is a new batt setup for the Leaf?

[pete376403]

The blog I posted on our website a few years back still has plenty of relevant info regarding PV installations: https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/index.php?route=module/blog/view&blog_id=7

We have since moved properties and have yet to install PV on our present lifestyle property. This is partly due to finances but also I'm waiting for storage units such as 'Powerwalls' to become more economically viable. Incidentally the PV installation on our last place was viewed as a major plus by the ingoing owner.

The ability to use your own generation rather than exporting it to grid at a fraction of its import cost remains the crux of PV viability!

Our previous 6kW PV set-up cost just over $30K in early 2012. I've seen quotes for 10kW ground mounted set-ups for a similar cost a couple of years ago and prices are still reducing.

The factors that have also changed for us are that the Nissan Leaf's battery has declined to about 75% SOH so we're looking at battery (or car) replacement in the next few years. Repurposing the old battery (if replaced) into a home storage set-up is possible. Currently we're with Ecotricity as a power supplier who have a plan suited to owners of EV & PV that includes an attractive off peak price so the Leaf is charged (by timer) from midnight on at around 16c/kWh.

We do get to use our own generation with Solarcity. Obviously they must take a portion of it. We are also with Ecotricity.

[Naki Rat]

How much is a new batt setup for the Leaf?From what I'm hearing we should be able to do the update for under $5K (less what we can get for the old pack). No Leafs around (in NZ) that have done it yet so a bit unknown at this stage. Nissan do a USD5,000 swap once Leafs reach a certain battery SOH but Nissan NZ aren't likely to do this, particularly as most Leafs in NZ are Jap imports.

[Laava]

Righto then. Big (massive) difference between the first edition Leaf and the current too...

[Naki Rat]

Righto then. Big (massive) difference between the first edition Leaf and the current too...Original ('Gen 1') Leaf had a 24kWh battery with ~120km range, update model in 2016 had 30kWh and latest model now has 40kWh with 240km range though the S Plus, SV Plus and SL Plus models have a 62 kWh battery with an EPA range of up to 364 km.

Nissan NZ is planning on selling new Leafs again but yet to see if the 62kWh models will be included in those. The pricing that the likes of Kia, Renault, Kia, Tesla model 3, and soon the Honda e (https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/113960717/hondas-releases-more-details-on-its-tiny-and-adorable-ev) will probably keep Nissan's pricing honest/competitive on the Leaf.

[imac]

I am beginning to wonder if battery operated cars will become the biggest white elephant of our time when the end to end cost, from mining, manufacturing, creation of electricity to charge and disposal are all taken into account.
Perhaps the hydrogen fuel cell will be our saviour

[MarkH]

I am beginning to wonder if battery operated cars will become the biggest white elephant of our time when the end to end cost, from mining, manufacturing, creation of electricity to charge and disposal are all taken into account.
Perhaps the hydrogen fuel cell will be our saviour

Hydrogen is shit!

It takes MORE power to convert water to hydrogen to power cars than to charge electric cars and hydrogen is very dangerous to store. Meanwhile electric cars with 400+ km range are becoming more common and cheap, that is plenty enough range for most NZers. I could drive from the Waikato to Wellington with only one stop (easily) for charging in a car that has 400+ km range.

As battery electric cars become more popular there will be better recycling methods for batteries. There will also be better batteries that don't need cobalt and store more power for their weight/size. There are several designs in the works that will have less degradation so that we will have batteries that last very easily more than 20 years.

I wish I could afford a Tesla Model 3 performance - 560km range, 0-100kph in 3.4 seconds, 262kph top speed. What are the downsides of that car? It is pretty hard to find a fossil fuel burner that can match that performance and even then it just can't come close to matching the low running costs.

[buggerit]

New Nissan leaf does 240km on a 40kwh battery= 6km to the kwh
average commuter does 12500km per year.

So said Nissan Leaf will use 2083kwh per year,

The average household uses 5600kwh per year.

my questions are:
How will the infrastructure cope?
What effect will it have on the price of power?
Will the price of contolled power be a lot closer to the anytime price?

I wonder what the average number of vehicles commuting per household are?

I wonder if we end up with hydrogen/electric hybrids?

[FLUB]

There's a large percentage of company cars in NZ where the driver gets free fuel. I can't see electric taking the place of engines when the driver has to plug them in at home and pay for their own fuel.

Sent from my HUAWEI M2-802L using Tapatalk

[Laava]

Good point Flub. I wonder if they will make electric planes mandatory at the same time as cars...

[Naki Rat]

There's a large percentage of company cars in NZ where the driver gets free fuel. I can't see electric taking the place of engines when the driver has to plug them in at home and pay for their own fuel.

Sent from my HUAWEI M2-802L using TapatalkThis company seems to have that aspect sorted for EVs : evtalk.co.nz/tradies-encouraged-to-switch-to-evs/

[Laava]

This company seems to have that aspect sorted for EVs : evtalk.co.nz/tradies-encouraged-to-switch-to-evs/ (http://evtalk.co.nz/tradies-encouraged-to-switch-to-evs/)
404 not found

[GazzaH]

They forgot to put a coin in the meter

[Laava]

That link seems to be working now...

[R650R]

https://youtu.be/1Mxf_2UncAw