Mandatory ABS

[rastuscat]

Copy and paste. Not my opinion.


Life-saving motorcycle technology to be mandatory from April 2020

The most significant change to motorcycle safety in New Zealand in decades is on the way with the introduction of mandatory requirements for anti-lock braking systems (ABS) starting from April 2020.

Making ABS mandatory will significantly reduce the number of motorcycle crashes which result from loss of control. Motorcyclists have the highest rate of deaths and injuries of any group on our roads, and the mandatory fitting of ABS technology is a much-needed step to help riders stay in control and stay safe”, says NZ Transport Agency General Manager Safety, Health and Environment Greg Lazzaro.

“ABS is a relatively low cost life-saving technology for motorcycles, but it is still not widely adopted in New Zealand. The evidence is clear that it will deliver the highest returns relative to costs of any motorcycle safety technology we have seen,” Mr Lazzaro says.

The mandatory ABS requirement will come into effect from 1 April 2020, through the Land Transport Rule: Light-vehicle Brakes Amendment (No 2) 2019. The new rule makes mandatory the fitting of ABS for new motorcycles over 125cc, with ABS or a combined braking system required for motorcycles over 50cc up to and not exceeding 125cc.

Compulsory ABS for motorcycles is part of the NZ Government’s focus on road safety, which includes the development of the recently released Road to Zero road safety strategy consultation document(external link)
“Motorcycles make up just four percent of the New Zealand vehicle fleet, yet they were involved in 17 percent of fatal road crashes between 2014 and 2018, with 248 motorcyclists killed during this period.

“We want riders to stay safe on our roads. By mandating life-saving ABS technology, it’s estimated 34 lives can be saved and 375 serious injuries prevented over the next 26 years,” Mr Lazzaro says.

Submissions from the consultation period on the new rule showed a high level of support from the motorcycling community for the mandatory adoption of ABS technology.

The rule change applies to all new-model motorcycles first available for sale in New Zealand from 1 April 2020. Current-model motorcycles and imported used motorcycles will need to have ABS fitted as standard from 1 November 2021.
Several limited exceptions are included in the rule change, including the importation of classic and collectable motorcycles. These classic and collectable motorcycles account for a small fraction of motorcycle imports. There is no requirement to retrofit ABS to existing motorcycles already registered for use in New Zealand.

More information

The Land Transport Rule: Light-vehicle Brakes Amendment (No 2) 2019 will come into effect 1 April 2020.
More information is available at http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/rules/light-vehicle-brakes-2002-index/.
For more information on the Land Transport Rules, contact us at rules@nzta.govt.nz.

[Dak S83]

Frikkin joke if you ask me, retailers are gonna love it, NOT, this will pretty much wipe out 70% of the new motorbikes you can buy.

[Jeeper]

Frikkin joke if you ask me, retailers are gonna love it, NOT, this will pretty much wipe out 70% of the new motorbikes you can buy.How will this wipe out 70% of the new bikes you can buy?

[Dak S83]

How many new bikes have ABS? Have a look at motorbike sales so far for this year, nearly ALL the big sellers have no ABS. The number 1 seller for 2018 and so far this year is the GSX150, no ABS there. And the year before that before the Gixxer craze the number one seller was the GN125, no ABS there either.

[sidecar bob]

I can't remember ever locking a wheel on a bike where it caused me any bother.
Oh well, lowest common denominator & all that shit.
I have one bike with abs & traction & tend to actively use them as riding aids rather than emergency/safety devices.
All they really do is make me ride harder, quite satisfying when they cut in right on cue.

[FJRider]

The rule change applies to all new-model motorcycles first available for sale in New Zealand from 1 April 2020. Current-model motorcycles and imported used motorcycles will need to have ABS fitted as standard from 1 November 2021.

So ... "Older Model" bikes still exempt from this legislation ... ??? :scratch:

Seems funny though ... :wacko: (lack of) braking ability is seldom the actual :bs: issue in a crash ... :whistle: Authorities still believe that SPEED is the only issue needing attention ... so we should need to slow down better.

Will better brakes really stop more injuries or deaths .. ?? :scratch: Will it help in red light/stop sign/give way sign "incidents" ... ??


Compulsory Day-Glo clothing for pedestrians at night will save more lives and injuries ... ;)

[Jeeper]

How many new bikes have ABS? Have a look at motorbike sales so far for this year, nearly ALL the big sellers have no ABS. The number 1 seller for 2018 and so far this year is the GSX150, no ABS there. And the year before that before the Gixxer craze the number one seller was the GN125, no ABS there either.GSX150 overseas has had ABS since August 2017, so why would it be so difficult for NZ market?

http://bikeindia.in/new-suzuki-gixxer-sf-abs-launched-in-carb-and-fi-variants/

[Jeeper]

ABS brakes do not improve stopping distances, they actually make them worse. What ABS allows is to steer while braking as hard as possible, thus avoid loss of traction/direction. That's how they work on cars as well.

Straight line stop, ABS is not really beneficial. Changing direction while braking hard, ABS can be the difference between life and death.

The moment wheel locks up, it's lost control over direction and bike/car will go in the direction of inertia and gravity alone.

[Dak S83]

GSX150 overseas has had ABS since August 2017, so why would it be so difficult for NZ market?

http://bikeindia.in/new-suzuki-gixxer-sf-abs-launched-in-carb-and-fi-variants/

I was just stating one example, have a look at the sales records for yourself. ALL the big sellers have no ABS and can't see them all of a sudden getting ABS before this so called law comes into effect, it just aint gonna happen. Its yet another law thought up by some pencil pushing pillock that has never even seen, let alone ridden a bike

[sidecar bob]

ABS brakes do not improve stopping distances, they actually make them worse. What ABS allows is to steer while braking as hard as possible, thus avoid loss of traction/direction. That's how they work on cars as well.

Straight line stop, ABS is not really beneficial. Changing direction while braking hard, ABS can be the difference between life and death.

The moment wheel locks up, it's lost control over direction and bike/car will go in the direction of inertia and gravity alone.

Yep, show me an average rider that would be prepared to chuck a bike into a hard turn with the abs chirping.

[Dak S83]

FUCK, it's get worse, NO IMPORTS without ABS will comply and therefore that wipes out that market as well. Unless older than 1990. Who the fuck is this pillock Minister Genter?

https://www.transport.govt.nz/land/abs-for-motorcycles/

[pete376403]

We need someone from NZTA to demonstrate steering while the abs is operating, on damp grass would be the easiest way to get the wheels locked at a moderate speed. For comparison the effect should be demonstrated with a non abs bike as well. I'm picking that there would be little difference in how long it took the rider to fall off.

[pete-blen]

so Meany of the duel sports will be gone...
IE... DR650..


.

[rastuscat]

I've seen quite a few examples of people saying "I came off coz my brakes locked up".

Which is actually fudging the real cause, being a lack of proper brake application.

I can't see any adverse outcome to this move. Manufacturers chase rules. By then a lot more bikes will have ABS as standard anyway. And if you have a bike with no ABS, its exempted.

Still, gives the moaners another topic to moan about.

[Jeeper]

I was just stating one example, have a look at the sales records for yourself. ALL the big sellers have no ABS and can't see them all of a sudden getting ABS before this so called law comes into effect, it just aint gonna happen. Its yet another law thought up by some pencil pushing pillock that has never even seen, let alone ridden a bikeThat's how it happened in Europe. When the law changed, bikes grew ABS overnight. It's actually cheaper for the manufacturers to offer the same spec bike around the world than do market specific items. Both my last bikes came with ABS standard (around the world).

[sidecar bob]

I've seen quite a few examples of people saying "I came off coz my brakes locked up".

Which is actually fudging the real cause, being a lack of proper brake application.

I'd say it's actually a lack of proper assessment of the road surface.

[FJRider]

I'd say it's actually a lack of proper assessment of the road surface.

If a rider on public roads, needs to brake hard enough to lock up either (or both) wheels ... then there are a few other things that were not properly assessed (or noticed) soon enough.

Riding within the law and having "Right of way" will not guarantee an uneventful ride. And to see possible issues ahead ... first you have to look for them.

[pritch]

How many new bikes have ABS? Have a look at motorbike sales so far for this year, nearly ALL the big sellers have no ABS. The number 1 seller for 2018 and so far this year is the GSX150, no ABS there. And the year before that before the Gixxer craze the number one seller was the GN125, no ABS there either.

Funny, when I think of ABS the bikes you mention are not the first ones that spring to mind.

Europe has had mandatory ABS for some time. Some importers here didn't offer it because they like to maximise their profit margins. Fuck rider safety, the priority is the bottom line. ABS won't pose any problem for the manufacturers, they are already offering it in other markets. Now they'll provide it here too.

As long as it's switchable on the tall rounders everybody should be happy.

[BMWST?]

i would say a fair few motorcycles accidents are those where a relatively inexperienced rider is faced with a panic stop situation,so brakes are slammed on,resulting in an instantaneous lock up of front wheel followed shorly afterwards with a fall.The abs may prevent the fall but the impact with the car will probablt still follw instaed of the fall,maybe hit the car.I would also think the impact on the market will be rather slow,with only new bikes having abs.

[reasonable]

Gotta say that ABS in the wet is useful though .
Yeah there's a lot to to be said for correct braking technique eg using both brakes with the accent on the front & anticipating a situation etc
But when its a wet cold miserable day & hard out raining , abs is bloody reassuring

[FJRider]

Gotta say that ABS in the wet is useful though .
Yeah there's a lot to to be said for correct braking technique eg using both brakes with the accent on the front & anticipating a situation etc
But when its a wet cold miserable day & hard out raining , abs is bloody reassuring

Perhaps ... a system of compulsory Rider Training courses prior to gaining each class of license ... including this very subject. It must be better to learn prior to an "incident" ... than after. Learning by your accidents is seldom fun. Usually hurts too ... ;)

[Taxythingy]

Idk. How about we have both? ABS so it is there when it's needed, and training to avoid having to use it. Seems like a good solution to part of the problem.

[onearmedbandit]

Some importers here didn't offer it because they like to maximise their profit margins. Fuck rider safety, the priority is the bottom line.

I'd place my money more on it being Kiwi buyers wouldn't spend the extra money over the standard model so the dealers didn't bother to bring them in. I've seen examples of $70,000 NZ new cars here (top of the range) without specs that came as standard on the $40,000 imported models (base spec).

[Jeff Sichoe]

Now, ABS.

Next, mandatory GPS trackers.

[pritch]

I'd place my money more on it being Kiwi buyers wouldn't spend the extra money over the standard model so the dealers didn't bother to bring them in. I've seen examples of $70,000 NZ new cars here (top of the range) without specs that came as standard on the $40,000 imported models (base spec).

Perhaps some more recently, but others were quite up front about "maintaining margins", they didn't give the option even though it was available They'll bring them in now though - and that's good.

I get the impression we've got some "riding gods" here, people who don't think they would benefit from ABS. That's nonsense.
In a one-off crash stop situation nobody beats ABS.

The reaction of the Transport Dept cops was a bit surprising when the first ABS equipped bikes appeared. Their main concern was that there would be no skid marks to measure after an accident.

[jasonu]

ABS brakes do not improve stopping distances, they actually make them worse. What ABS allows is to steer while braking as hard as possible, thus avoid loss of traction/direction. That's how they work on cars as well.

Straight line stop, ABS is not really beneficial. Changing direction while braking hard, ABS can be the difference between life and death.

The moment wheel locks up, it's lost control over direction and bike/car will go in the direction of inertia and gravity alone.

Tougher licensing tests would also go a long way to improving the crash stats.
As someone else said I can't remember the last time (or any time) I had an accidental lock up that was a concern.

[F5 Dave]

ABS is the only thing that I'd particularly like for my bike. On wet roads it would be a nice backup so you can get hard on the brakes quicker. I'm quite ginger in the wet and I've raced for years and ride dirtbikes.

From what I've seen the days of extended abs results has reversed the other way.

[jellywrestler]

How many new bikes have ABS? Have a look at motorbike sales so far for this year, nearly ALL the big sellers have no ABS. The number 1 seller for 2018 and so far this year is the GSX150, no ABS there. And the year before that before the Gixxer craze the number one seller was the GN125, no ABS there either.

And you don't think that there are other countries in the world with this already legislated and suzuki have an ABS model already available?

[jellywrestler]

So ... "Older Model" bikes still exempt from this legislation ... ??? :scratch:

Seems funny though ... :wacko: (lack of) braking ability is seldom the actual :bs: issue in a crash ... :whistle: Authorities still believe that SPEED is the only issue needing attention ... so we should need to slow down better.

they did say they are looking at saving 34 lives over 26 years so yest seldom

[jellywrestler]

Perhaps ... a system of compulsory Rider Training courses prior to gaining each class of license ... including this very subject. It must be better to learn prior to an "incident" ... than after. Learning by your accidents is seldom fun. Usually hurts too ... ;)

so you think an afternoon training will give you the neccesary tools in your head to sort a out a near one off dodgy braking situation two or ten years later?

[jellywrestler]

Tougher licensing tests would also go a long way to improving the crash stats.
As someone else said I can't remember the last time (or any time) I had an accidental lock up that was a concern.

i've not seen a test where you have to lock up your brakes to see whether you can handle your bike in that situation yet.

[pritch]

i've not seen a test where you have to lock up your brakes to see whether you can handle your bike in that situation yet.

Realistically most riders will never brake hard enough for the ABS to kick in - unless on a seriously dodgy surface.

[jasonu]

i've not seen a test where you have to lock up your brakes to see whether you can handle your bike in that situation yet.

Fair point but generally speaking getting a drivers/mc license in NZ is and always has been far too easy.

[F5 Dave]

so you think an afternoon training will give you the neccesary tools in your head to sort a out a near one off dodgy braking situation two or ten years later?

I don't, and I've run a few of those sessions .

Not dissing training. Far from it - as the vast improvement in the participant stopping distance is always eye opening even with experienced riders.

[speedpro]

Bit of a laugh this measuring skid marks after a crash. Who has ever left skid marks from a front wheel? If there is a skid mark it'll be the back wheel surely and IF you are hard on the front brake the back is going to be doing diddly. Apart from the more pedestrian and cruiser styles I can't see the back brake being much help in a full on braking situation. Wet conditions maybe but then there is likely to be not much of a skid mark due to the lack of traction anyway.
I recall vividly stopping behind this bus that lurched out blocking the lane and hearing skidding noises from behind. This guy turned up next to me with a death grip on the bars and the back all locked up. He didn't even have a finger on the brake lever.

[jellywrestler]

Realistically most riders will never brake hard enough for the ABS to kick in - unless on a seriously dodgy surface.

i'm an electrician, i only need one electric shock to kill me, realistically that won't happen.....

of course too, our country has no seriously dodgy surfaces, nor does anyone ever leak deisel either, nor is their ever gravel on a surface so what a big waste of fucking time.

[jellywrestler]

Fair point but generally speaking getting a drivers/mc license in NZ is and always has been far too easy.
when's the last time you've interacted with someone getting their license? from what i see it isn't helping a young fella last year, but of course once you walk out of that door there is pretty much zero retraining for the rest of your life

[onearmedbandit]

Bit of a laugh this measuring skid marks after a crash. Who has ever left skid marks from a front wheel? If there is a skid mark it'll be the back wheel surely and IF you are hard on the front brake the back is going to be doing diddly. Apart from the more pedestrian and cruiser styles I can't see the back brake being much help in a full on braking situation. Wet conditions maybe but then there is likely to be not much of a skid mark due to the lack of traction anyway.
I recall vividly stopping behind this bus that lurched out blocking the lane and hearing skidding noises from behind. This guy turned up next to me with a death grip on the bars and the back all locked up. He didn't even have a finger on the brake lever.

I remember when I first heard that story, was when ABS started to become common in cars.

[Jeeper]

Realistically most riders will never brake hard enough for the ABS to kick in - unless on a seriously dodgy surface.You would be surprised how easily rear brake can lock up in wet conditions going downhill on a steep grade.

[sidecar bob]

You would be surprised how easily rear brake can lock up in wet conditions going downhill on a steep grade.

I'm not entirely sure I would be surprised, it sounds like a perfect recipie for a rear wheel lock up.

[Berries]

Bit of a laugh this measuring skid marks after a crash. Who has ever left skid marks from a front wheel? If there is a skid mark it'll be the back wheel surely and IF you are hard on the front brake the back is going to be doing diddly. Apart from the more pedestrian and cruiser styles I can't see the back brake being much help in a full on braking situation.
Seen plenty of examples of long skid marks from the back wheel right up to impact with an oncoming van on a left hander or a fence post. Two cases in the last 12 months were fatal. To me it smacks of inexperience in either riding or hard braking, and in putting yourself in the position where you are just way too hot in to the corner which again reads inexperience. Not youth mind.

Anyway, mandatory ABS. My GSXR does not have it but if it was standard it would have. I look at it as an airbag/ejector seat/Cypress kind of thing, when all else fails it might just help. I would not go out of the way to buy a bike with it but I wouldn't knock one back just because it did.

I just say make the most of it. Motorbikes are totally incompatible with the governments road safety vision and there is nothing anyone can say that will change that. If the wrong person in government gets in to the right position it'll all be over.

[speedpro]

There's actually a case for coupled brakes. With ABS I can see it being a benefit. Of course it would teach all sorts of bad habits and those lessons could be very bad if you went back to what is now a standard setup.

[rastuscat]

so you think an afternoon training will give you the neccesary tools in your head to sort a out a near one off dodgy braking situation two or ten years later?

Interesting. On the courses we instruct we show people good emergency braking technique then encourage them to practise it until they actually need it.

100% of the practise they dont do doesnt help.

[jellywrestler]

Interesting. On the courses we instruct we show people good emergency braking technique then encourage them to practise it until they actually need it.

100% of the practise they dont do doesnt help.

and that's the best way to learn anything, but this is a safety device that takes control usually when rider input has not worked,

[pritch]

I remember when I first heard that story,

When ABS first appeared in the showrooms here the local Transport Dept got together with the BMW/Suzuki dealer who supplied bikes and some staff at the local port. Big area of seal, private property, away from the pubic gaze, no concerns about breaking laws, etc.

The bikes were large in those days so the antics were reportedly impressive. The cops had been outspoken about their concerns re skid marks prior. After the tests/demos their comments were about the skills of the dealer staff, how hard the riders had to brake to get the ABS to work, and the stoppies they performed on the comparison bikes that did not have ABS.

Reading suggests there are riders who don't much use the front brake. This is commented on in US books (Ienatch for one from memory) and might be more common among cruiser riders.

As mentioned previously, on a good surface it takes a seriously hard application of the brakes to get the ABS to function, until that point is reached correct braking technique is still required. Instruction and practice are still valid.

[Viking01]

https://www.visordown.com/features/general/does-motorcycle-abs-save-lives

[george formby]

Hmmmmmm, best I get my imported 93 CRM registered before the law change. I think.

It is classic and collectible.. And noisy and smoky.:banana:


In other news. Apparently in the EU they have just passed legislation making front and rear ABS non switchable... Front, meh. Rear, keep your hands off. Muppets. :angry2:

(Soz if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread.)

[FJRider]

so you think an afternoon training will give you the neccesary tools in your head to sort a out a near one off dodgy braking situation two or ten years later?

How many training courses are compulsory now .. ???

Will probably need at least a full day course ... :innocent:

[Autech]

I'd say it's actually a lack of proper assessment of the road surface.

Exactly, only reason my poor gixxer front wheel locked is I failed to notice the build up of grit I was braking on. Was such a gorgeous bike too. My fault. I do wonder if ABS would have saved it though? Anyone ever tried ABS on a sandy surface?

[Racing Dave]

In other news. Apparently in the EU they have just passed legislation making front and rear ABS non switchable... Front, meh. Rear, keep your hands off. Muppets. :angry2:

ABS is always switchable. There are many ways to do this: Remove a fuse; wire in an actual switch in line with a wheel speed sensor; use the appropriate technique that early model Super Tenere's needed (don't know about current models) by running them in gear at moderate revs on the centre stand until the 'fault' light illuminates, etc.

Just 'cos the gummint says so, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

[george formby]

ABS is always switchable. There are many ways to do this: Remove a fuse; wire in an actual switch in line with a wheel speed sensor; use the appropriate technique that early model Super Tenere's needed (don't know about current models) by running them in gear at moderate revs on the centre stand until the 'fault' light illuminates, etc.

Just 'cos the gummint says so, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

Fairy snuff.

I just feel that this legislation potentially makes a bike more dangerous rather than safer. I've had to lay a bike down once to go under a truck trailer and avoided a car in my lane by sliding the rear.

No more skidding into a car park, either.

[Jeff Sichoe]

ABS is always switchable. There are many ways to do this: Remove a fuse; wire in an actual switch in line with a wheel speed sensor; use the appropriate technique that early model Super Tenere's needed (don't know about current models) by running them in gear at moderate revs on the centre stand until the 'fault' light illuminates, etc.

Just 'cos the gummint says so, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

I wonder if a bike sold with ABS and then 'tampered' IE an inline-switch or something, would still be insurable (or insured if the mod was discovered)

[george formby]

I wonder if a bike sold with ABS and then 'tampered' IE an inline-switch or something, would still be insurable (or insured if the mod was discovered)

Or warrantable?

Is a ABS checked for a WOF?

[Black Knight]

A mate could not get a WoF on his BMW because the ABS light stayed on,so yes it is checked.

[george formby]

A mate could not get a WoF on his BMW because the ABS light stayed on,so yes it is checked.

D'oh! True dat. I forgot about all the forsaken VW's draining cash because the ABS warning light stayed on.

[Jeeper]

Or warrantable?

Is a ABS checked for a WOF?A car would fail WoF if it's ABS has been tempered with or is made inoperable. Same would be the case with bikes.

[Katman]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I'll still have my dinosaurs.

[jellywrestler]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I'll still have my dinosaurs.

but as someone who has been so vocal over the years on riders improving their survival rate it would be interesting to hear your take on this.

[FJRider]

A car would fail WoF if it's ABS has been tempered with or is made inoperable. Same would be the case with bikes.

If a road test was done ... it might (should ??) not be noticed. But would you take it back to the same tester for the next WOF check ... if he told you it wasn't working ... ??

[MD]

ABS is always switchable. There are many ways to do this: Remove a fuse; wire in an actual switch in line with a wheel speed sensor; use the appropriate technique that early model Super Tenere's needed (don't know about current models) by running them in gear at moderate revs on the centre stand until the 'fault' light illuminates, etc.

Just 'cos the gummint says so, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

I did that on my 2006 BMW F800S because I wanted to see if it would do stoppies. Trouble was disconnecting the ABS also killed the speedo, trip metre and odometer, which quickly became surprisingly frustrating. Soft suspenders meant stoppies were hard work anyway.

Early bike versions of ABS were suspect. F800S was more dangerous than helpful but they have improved over the years. I can't see a problem with modern road bikes having to have it. Switchable would be nice but I doubt we will get the luxury of choice.

I did the Gold Ride safe thingy in 2017 and was surprised the rest of the group had never ridden hard enough to trigger their ABS (Wimps). Part of the course was experiencing it happen on seal crossing onto gravel. I reckn most experienced Riders would struggle to brake better than their ABS, especially on gravel.

[sidecar bob]

Abs needs to be switchable.
Riding a 1200 GS BMW in deep gravel is almost impossible with abs on, it falls on its arse constantly, like riding a bike with a serious misfire, goes front heavy & is a bloody handful.

[pete376403]

A car would fail WoF if it's ABS has been tempered with or is made inoperable. Same would be the case with bikes.

The WOF test will see if the ABS light comes on with the ignition and then goes off when the motor is running, same as the air-bag (SRS) test. Thats about as far as testing will go. There are ways to defeat both systems without being obvious

[Jeeper]

If a road test was done ... it might (should ??) not be noticed. But would you take it back to the same tester for the next WOF check ... if he told you it wasn't working ... ??ABS would be lit on the dash as soon as the ECU detects a fault with the system. If a shop is prepared to ignore that, I would walk away and go somewhere else.

[Jeeper]

The WOF test will see if the ABS light comes on with the ignition and then goes off when the motor is running, same as the air-bag (SRS) test. Thats about as far as testing will go. There are ways to defeat both systems without being obviousOn my Jeep, that is how it works. But on my bike every time I start it, ABS light keeps flashing till I'm doing 5-6 kms per hour and then it goes away. If you just start it and let idle, the light keep flashing. It's all part of the self-diagnostic.

On both, I can manually disable ABS and traction control (Jeep) when off-road. Although then the light stays on.

[F5 Dave]

.

I did the Gold Ride safe thingy in 2017 and was surprised the rest of the group had never ridden hard enough to trigger their ABS (Wimps). Part of the course was experiencing it happen on seal crossing onto gravel. I reckn most experienced Riders would struggle to brake better than their ABS, especially on gravel.
One of the very first things I did when the wiff got one of these new fangled cars with abs was try out when it kicked in and over what. Heck I did it on the test drive when I finally bought one last year.

I'd def try it on a bike to see what happens. I always try how fast you can stop on normal brakes to calibrate yourself.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

my 2016 gsx-s1000 has and, I find it's actually dangerous, it won't interrupt untill you start to get tyre close to chirping , but when it does it takes forever to restore braking, it shoots forward horrendously, If i was about to rear end a cage that pulls out of a side street, it would definetely result in a crash as i trained myself to brake up to the churping point, i'd disable it in an instant if I could , I can remove fuse but then have another annoying light on the dash, the first being the 'traction control'- they should relable them " the lack of control button " ever watched a superbike start sliding , then the rider turns off the throttle, instant high-sided, the much more expensive systems may work better, but the ones on my bike suck,

[F5 Dave]

That's disappointing. That roadshow thingy they did demonstration comparison with clear advantage to abs. Although it was on a tall suspension bike.

[Navy Boy]

Whether you personally agree with ABS being mandatory on bikes or not this move has been a long time in coming. As with most such moves once it's made compulsory the manufacturers are remarkably adept at getting it onto their machines for next to no additional cost.

Having owned bikes fitted both with and without I would be lying if I didn't think that it provides a welcome safety net if things do go South. Most of the time I can brake just as well on a non-ABS equipped bike in the dry but it's on those 2:37 in the afternoon on a wet and windy Friday afternoon when you're getting to the airport type of rides when it'll prove to be worthwhile. IMHO if it saves me just the once then it's worthwhile.

However, each to their own and all that. :rolleyes:

[george formby]

Whether you personally agree with ABS being mandatory on bikes or not this move has been a long time in coming. As with most such moves once it's made compulsory the manufacturers are remarkably adept at getting it onto their machines for next to no additional cost.

Having owned bikes fitted both with and without I would be lying if I didn't think that it provides a welcome safety net if things do go South. Most of the time I can brake just as well on a non-ABS equipped bike in the dry but it's on those 2:37 in the afternoon on a wet and windy Friday afternoon when you're getting to the airport type of rides when it'll prove to be worthwhile. IMHO if it saves me just the once then it's worthwhile.

However, each to their own and all that. :rolleyes:

It's been mandatory in a lot of countries for quite some time, even Australia is ahead of us with this legislation. Any negative issues would be well and truly out in the wild by now.

The EU legislation for non-switchable rear ABS is a different prospect IMHO. Adventure style bikes are the next biggest seller after Cruisers in most Western countries. Admittedly, their are not a lot of gravel roads in Brussels...

As for cost, I'm sure manufacturers would be happier making one bike for the world rather than offering ABS or non ABS for specific markets. You would think that the gain in production line efficiency would be a cost saving - and that would trickle down to the purchaser. You would hope, anyway.:pinch:

[jim.cox]

Me, I'm not keen on ABS.

Just on the general principle that I do NOT want brakes that can decide to turn them selves off.

Time to update the logo to "Bevelhead Dinosaur" me thinks.

Now just where was that obscure setting again...?

aha - sweet - sorted
.

[george formby]

Me, I'm not keen on ABS.

Just on the general principle that I do NOT want brakes that can decide to turn them selves off.

Time to update the logo to "Bevelhead Dinosaur" me thinks.

Now just where was that obscure setting again...?

aha - sweet - sorted
.

:laugh: Your post immediately brought to mind a number of reviews I have watched lately, the recent crop of high tech ADV bikes. Every time the terrain changes riders stop and adjust the settings.... They used to be ciggie breaks.

[jim.cox]

Every time the terrain changes riders stop and adjust the settings.... They used to be ciggie breaks.

We called them "safety briefings".

And it may not have been tobacco in them ciggies.

[sidecar bob]

We called them "safety briefings".

And it may not have been tobacco in them ciggies.

Now its a vape & set your bike to ghey mode stop.

[george formby]

We called them "safety briefings".

And it may not have been tobacco in them ciggies.

That would explain why the electrickery doo hickeys seem to make no difference off road.

:blip:

[george formby]

Now its a vape & set your bike to ghey mode stop.

Driftin away from stoppin now, sorry. I don't get why you buy a 100hp+ bike and then neuter it with a (few) press of the button.

[Jeff Sichoe]

because 160hp on the road is fun, but not required on loose surfaces.

pretty obvious really?

I mean, you could argue if you don't need more than 100hp on the gravel then why do you need it on road

well

gotta go fast

[F5 Dave]

So, this seemingly common belief that ABS systems are so crude that they will under hard applications turn off and let you coast for scary fractions of a second. - well that seems inconceivable. Surely that sort of behaviour was evolved out in short order?

I'd expect modern systems to be better in all but bizarre situations.


Crappy cut rate suzukis aside.

[FJRider]

The WOF test will see if the ABS light comes on with the ignition and then goes off when the motor is running, same as the air-bag (SRS) test. Thats about as far as testing will go. There are ways to defeat both systems without being obvious

Simple way to defeat that issue is to connect the ABS light to the oil pressure warning light ... :shifty:

[sidecar bob]

So, this seemingly common belief that ABS systems are so crude that they will under hard applications turn off and let you coast for scary fractions of a second. - well that seems inconceivable. Surely that sort of behaviour was evolved out in short order?

I'd expect modern systems to be better in all but bizarre situations.


Crappy cut rate suzukis aside.

If you think about how abs works, it will always be a lot more crude on a bike than a car.
It references speed off the fastest wheel, any wheel rotating below a threshold slower than that wheel, under braking will have the abs activated to that wheel.
A car has four wheels on two seperate tracks, those tracks may often have different grip levels, meaning the system can reference quite reliably.
A bike can only reference one wheel speed of the other. That & them being both on the same track, the system is flawed from the outset.

[george formby]

Been having a quick squizz around the internet and it's interesting to see the comparisons between non ABS, ABS and Cornering ABS.

[F5 Dave]

Surely front and back wheels are working independently. Else the front would be reduced to as bad as the rear, which is tragic.

The demo shown at that Ridefest or whatever it was called they had bike with tripod outrigger then demo guy did stops with and without. He was pretty exciting to watch with it off. Would be better than 99% I'm sure . Easily beat his distance with abs switched on.

I suspect it would have been closer with sportbike but
. .

[Jeeper]

If you think about how abs works, it will always be a lot more crude on a bike than a car.
It references speed off the fastest wheel, any wheel rotating below a threshold slower than that wheel, under braking will have the abs activated to that wheel.
A car has four wheels on two seperate tracks, those tracks may often have different grip levels, meaning the system can reference quite reliably.
A bike can only reference one wheel speed of the other. That & them being both on the same track, the system is flawed from the outset.I think you are confusing traction control with ABS. Traction control references relative tyre speed. ABS looks for lock-up situations.

[sidecar bob]

I think you are confusing traction control with ABS. Traction control references relative tyre speed. ABS looks for lock-up situations.

No, I'm not confused about it at all. Why would the abs light come on if one incorrect circumference tyre is fitted to a car?
It doesn't kick in at lock up, it kicks in once the wheel speed drops to a threshold not far below the fastest wheel on most systems.
If you are driving a car at 100kmh & upon braking one wheel hits a slippery surface & that wheel decelerates to say 50kmh, the ABS will kick in, even though the wheel hasn't locked, only broken traction significantly.
The reason the system has a threshold somewhat below the fastest wheel is to allow for differently worn tyres & wheel speed variances during cornering, although that one has been somewhat overcome by the use of steering angle sensors incorporated into the systems around 2003 onwards.
I owned a European car garage for around 25 years, they were using four channel abs around '86 so I've played around with it a bit.

[rastuscat]

It must be time for all the engineers at Bosch to retire.

Because, from reading this thread, we all know better than they do. We are all far better at braking than a scientifically engineered braking system, developed using a gazillion dollars worth of R&D.

Clearly, we all know better, because we have been able to emergency brake without falling off.

[nzspokes]

It must be time for all the engineers at Bosch to retire.

Because, from reading this thread, we all know better than they do. We are all far better at braking than a scientifically engineered braking system, developed using a gazillion dollars worth of R&D.

Clearly, we all know better, because we have been able to emergency brake without falling off.Agreed. Im glad the fuse in my ABS fell out. BMWs ABS system is rubbish.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[sidecar bob]

It's only as good as it can be given the limitations of the system.
If both wheels lock on a bike, how does the system know that the bike isn't stopped?
Short of ground speed radar being incorporated into the system, it will always have that flaw.

[pritch]

We called them "safety briefings".

And it may not have been tobacco in them ciggies.

My Doctor seems to think that the riders have all stopped to take their Voltaren.

[rastuscat]

It's only as good as it can be given the limitations of the system.


In much the same way, a rider is only as good as their practiced habits. No practice = low skill.

[MarkW]

It's only as good as it can be given the limitations of the system.
If both wheels lock on a bike, how does the system know that the bike isn't stopped?
Short of ground speed radar being incorporated into the system, it will always have that flaw.

This is simple - ABS ceases to be operative below 4kph on both a motorcycle and a car. If the ABS didn't cease to operate at 4kph no vehicle would ever be able to stop. Simple electronics do this with absolutely no need for ground speed radar.

I've restrained myself from commenting on some of the stuff that various riders have posted on this thread - much of it is SO wrong.

Every half baked theory available anywhere in the world has been trotted out. If ABS was as bad as the Kiwibiker "experts" would have us believe then it would not have almost universal acceptance in the automotive world and rapidly rising acceptance in the motorcycle world.

I ride motorcycles, new and old, with and without ABS. Both my cars are ABS equipped. Give me an ABS equipped vehicle any day. Sure, there are a very few number of times when ABS may not help [just as a seat belt will hold an unconscious person upside down in a car that is underwater] but in the vast majority of cases the automatic freeing up of a locked wheel assists stability and control. My first experience with ABS was in 1990 with my K100RS SE and I went and tried every condition that I could think of to find out how the system worked and what the limitations were. My latest BMW motorcycle has a much newer version of the system and works even better and again I have deliberately gone out and tried for real a huge variety of situations to find the limitations. Yes, it has some. But by knowing what, when and how the limitations are I can learn to take more care if I encounter such a situation.

[R650R]

Four years on thread bump the world hasnt ended because of bike abs although some are he’ll bent on it happening via other ways.
Thank you govt you inflated the value of my old non abs ADV bike sold for nice price.
Since bought two modern bikes with ABS and other safety features and yeah it’s been ok. How’s it been for everyone else?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zQoFML9xPk

[Racing Dave]

It must be time for all the engineers at Bosch to retire.

Because, from reading this thread, we all know better than they do. We are all far better at braking than a scientifically engineered braking system, developed using a gazillion dollars worth of R&D.

Clearly, we all know better, because we have been able to emergency brake without falling off.

Have a look at this, from Fortnine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY

[F5 Dave]

I saw that. Would be good to test a non budget system.
Either way I'd choose abs in the wet whilst on tour every time.
.

[R650R]

Saw Ryan’s vid also kinda contradicts Tkacs.
I don’t think most riders would successfully manage his technique of braking lightly briefly then full power during an emergency. Most people’s reaction times prob slower than that valve pump he’s worried about. Almost kinda irresponsible of someone with that much pull to promote it.

It’s a bit like how these influencers made trail braking a buzzword recently. I had to Google it after a younger work colleague was excited about it. Hhmmmm braking up to the apex of a corner “ you need to know this to manage emergency situations etc”
Unless your trying to outbreak Toprak most people on street should more focused on having an end of braking point before corner and be off them completely when turning.

[george formby]

I don’t think most riders would successfully manage his technique of braking lightly briefly then full power during an emergency. Most people’s reaction times prob slower than that valve pump he’s worried about. Almost kinda irresponsible of someone with that much pull to promote it.


Loading the suspension before dropping the anchor is braking 101. Has been since we stopped using our feet to brake.

IIRC, in the F9 vid he demonstrates that loading the suspension is also the way to get the best performance from ABS.

It's fisics.

[Gremlin]

What most fail to touch on, is that there is a difference between practising emergency stopping, and being mentally prepared/conditioned for it, and a car suddenly pulling out in front of you on your regular commute.

Ultimately, yes, in the right conditions you can out-brake ABS, simply because the entire function of ABS is to keep the wheel rolling when its locking up (aka, increases your stopping distance). But, you need good conditions and the skill to manage your braking force, loading the suspension and using progressive braking in combination to maximum effect.
Now contrast this to your typical road, variable road surface, and mixed conditions that you haven't been practising on seconds before. ABS stops you from locking the wheel and going splat. You can maintain control of the motorcycle more, potentially weave around the issue (debris on road for example). Locked wheels don't like that request very much.

[Hoonicorn]

What most fail to touch on, is that there is a difference between practising emergency stopping, and being mentally prepared/conditioned for it, and a car suddenly pulling out in front of you on your regular commute.

Ultimately, yes, in the right conditions you can out-brake ABS, simply because the entire function of ABS is to keep the wheel rolling when its locking up (aka, increases your stopping distance). But, you need good conditions and the skill to manage your braking force, loading the suspension and using progressive braking in combination to maximum effect.
Now contrast this to your typical road, variable road surface, and mixed conditions that you haven't been practising on seconds before. ABS stops you from locking the wheel and going splat. You can maintain control of the motorcycle more, potentially weave around the issue (debris on road for example). Locked wheels don't like that request very much.

If a motorcyclist can be trained to out-brake ABS, does the ABS system interfere with that ability and undermine their potential to stop in a shorter distance? If it doesn't, at least not significantly, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

How many motorcyclists can out-brake ABS in most situations, who spend the necessary time to regularly practice their E-braking? If it's a very small number of dedicated motorcyclists, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

:scratch:

[Gremlin]

If a motorcyclist can be trained to out-brake ABS, does the ABS system interfere with that ability and undermine their potential to stop in a shorter distance? If it doesn't, at least not significantly, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

Effectively yes, it would interfere, as like cars, the trend is to auto-on the systems at every start. The system might drive you insane and you can switch it off, but to get the safety rating, it must be enabled on start (stuff like predictive collision warning - PCW, autonomous emergency braking - AEB). Then you get options like my 1090R where you buy a dongle from KTM, and it keeps the settings through a restart and warns you on every start it's not legal, but it's an adventure bike, and there are use cases where ABS is a really bad idea. For street bikes, the functionality at least at this point varies. Some can't be turned off, some can be partially disabled and others can be turned off. If the motorcycle allows it to be turned off, then nothing stopping anyone from turning it off. As always, the rules tend to cater to the lowest common denominator.


How many motorcyclists can out-brake ABS in most situations, who spend the necessary time to regularly practice their E-braking? If it's a very small number of dedicated motorcyclists, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.
How many undertake regular rider training, vs bought a motorcycle to go fast? As always, it's about running before you can walk. Even if you practise your e-braking, there have been examples where on the same day, practised, then later in the day, car pulls out, they panic and grab a handful of brake and go down. It's in those oh shit type moments that ABS will rarely be beaten, and can potentially assist with grabbing the brakes (if you lock the front, it's going to stop that).

I had a moment years ago in the South Island, came around a corner at ~110kph, to find the surface completely shiny with almost no grip. Er, gripping the seat (as you do), I initially braked before the shiny stuff and stood the bike up, then released the brakes and just sat still on the bike as we slid across the patch. Didn't even close the throttle, and didn't need to. As soon as the rear lost grip traction control kicked it and removed the power. The point was, the aids assisted the situation, lessening the effect. If the rear had been able to spin violently, it would have destabilised the bike. Once the shiny stuff was over, I could re-adjust and carry on. Same idea for ABS really.

[R650R]

I wonder if we will ever get EBS on bikes?
Modern trucks have system that detects how fast the brake pedal is being depressed. Before you’ve physically got your foot all the way to the floor it’s already cracking the brakes straight to the edge of lock up.
Maybe the MotoGP launch control in reverse that drops the suspension now we have so many bikes with electronic suspension.

Plus one on the idea of practising. Although last time I did that I had to chase a well meaning lady that picked up my braking marker (backpack) from side of road.

[Gremlin]

I wonder if we will ever get EBS on bikes?
Modern trucks have system that detects how fast the brake pedal is being depressed. Before you’ve physically got your foot all the way to the floor it’s already cracking the brakes straight to the edge of lock up.

EBS on bikes is an interesting one. The R1250GS/GSA has cruise control, it does use the rear brake to keep the bike to the set speed where needed. The announced R1300GS coming next year will have adaptive cruise control. Some motorcycles already have it (R1250RT, Multistrada V4, KTM 1290SAS etc).
These motorcycles can apply the brakes as needed, but there is some debate (because motorcycles are inherently unstable) about the consequences of motorcycles slamming the picks on and causing a rider to crash. Motorcycles simply aren't stable like vehicles with a wheel at each corner, plus the big fat contact patches.

Even when ABS was introduced, shortly after some bikes got cornering ABS, but required upgraded IMUs for the additional data. Even changing tyres from street to dual purpose is going to alter parameters...

[F5 Dave]

Marshaling at a race meeting that turned wet I've seen an experienced racer out pace the field then several laps later hit the deck braking into a corner. He knew it was coming, and yeah he would have been on slicks, but not many here could claim the same natural talent. I'd offer nobody.
It was just traction miscalculated. With a known corner.
How good can you be on the road in conditions that hopefully never occur. . . But do to some people?

[MarkW]

A number of years ago I ran motorcycle rider training courses around the North Island. At a course held on the Waitara Go-Kart circuit (the only piece of affordable “closed” road that we could find in Taranaki at the time) a very experienced rider on the latest and greatest technology wise motorcycle came to watch the less experienced riders go through their training. This experienced rider, through his job as a motorcycle salesman, was one of the main reasons why we were able to run three full training courses a year in New Plymouth.
When it came to the braking and emergency braking part of the full day on the track I invited the experienced rider to show off the ABS controls on his motorcycle. Which he happily did to great effect. I then kept him on the circuit doing the same exercises that the less experienced riders were completing but with the proviso that he wasn’t allowed to have the ABS kick in. In other words he was to try and get his braking skills to the ultimate point where he was in control of 100% perfect braking and the electronics didn’t need to cut in. And I told him that if he achieved this 100% perfection that he would be stopping in a shorter distance than if the ABS activated.
Almost an hour later I was called something unprintable by the experienced rider because he had found that I was actually correct. When he did get things perfect his stopping distance was shorter. But on the great surface, with extensive practice, lots of concentration, focus and feel this had happened only once – in about a dozen attempts.
The rest of the attempts had either a longer stopping distance because there was more braking force available than was used or overbraking had activated the ABS on one of the wheels on his motorcycle.
Back in to the real world and the roads that we ride on. Is ABS perfect? Of course not in that the programmers of ABS can never programme in perfection for every situation, motorcycle tyre or surface that we may come across.
But ABS is a great backup to try and minimize the effects of the variability of road surfaces, tyre adhesion and rider ability. When a braking motorcycle wheel has a sufficiently different wheel speed to the other motorcycle wheel the braking force on the wheel with the lower speed is reduced until the speed difference is back within the programmed parameters. And this check is completed many times a second. Automatically. (As an aside if you want to do great stoppies on an ABS equipped motorcycle you need to drop the rear wheel speed faster than the front wheel speed is dropping – otherwise the ABS will reduce the braking on the front wheel.)
I regularly ride two completely different road motorcycles. One has ABS and one doesn’t. Having ABS as a backup doesn’t change the way I ride but does try to fix my mistakes when I get things wrong. When, not if.
As has been said in posts above this one I’m not sure how well automatically activating emergency braking will work on a motorcycle – having an unprepared rider falling forward over the handlebars and/or front wheel because the motorcycle has decided to stop in a hurry when the rider wasn’t paying attention may not be beneficial.
As with all technology riders can experiment as far as they are prepared to go with how, why and when it works. Knowing more about the capabilities of your motorcycle is useful, knowing the limitations of the technology is even more useful. A word of warning here – going past the limits of the technology could be both painful and expensive!

[Moise]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right.

Is it meant to be covered in the R4E courses?

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[roogazza]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right.

Is it meant to be covered in the R4E courses?

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

Yes ,was having this discussion a week ago with a Mech. I happened to use the wifes new Suzuki Swift Sport.... only done 8,000 kms, The thing was shuddering from the front (madam hadn't noticed ). Mech reckoned he'd had a few Sports Swifts doing the same, and called it glazed pads !!!!! from pootering around town. Few more Kms on it may help, but I will give it more of a workout now and again and see ?

[Berries]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right.
Was at a meeting a month or so ago where Greg Murphy was presenting. The lack of knowledge about what are now basic safety features was one of his big issues.

That and NZTA taking valuable oxygen away from the rest of us.

[rastuscat]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right. Is it meant to be covered in the R4E courses?

This covers most of the safety features built into cars. The information is available, but most people don't go looking for it.

https://rightcar.govt.nz/safety-features-and-driver-assistance

Braking is covered on R4E courses, mostly because it's the cause of so many unnecessary bins. Everyone is an expert, until they aren't.