Crash reduction study - bus lanes are a minefield

[rastuscat]

I'm on a road safety engineering workshop this week, and part of that is a crash reduction study.

We were given a short corridor to investigate, a short piece of Great South Road in Penrose. 1 major intersection, 3 minor intersections.

The greatest crash cause, consistently, is the way people turn across the bus lane when entering and leaving GSR. They are colliding with vehicles travelling in the bus lane.

Notably, of the 12 injury crashes in the 5 year period we looked at, 5 involved a motorcyclist, and 2 involved a cyclist.

Travelling in bus lanes is legal for motorcyclists, but it is simply one of the most hazardous things we can legally do. People just don't look for us travelling down the outside of traffic, whether we are in a bus lane, a cycle lane (illegally), or legally overtaking stationary vehicles on the left.

I can almost see the need for a public information campaign on this. But because nobody ever thinks it'll happen to them, I feel that the message would be lost.

The sad thing is, even before the site visit yesterday, I could have told you what the causes were likely to be. It's just that predictable.

So why don't we prevent it?

[Scuba_Steve]

Not saying we can't do more to avoid the crashes but isn't putting us in charge of preventing it a bit like the "if she hadn't been wearing that she wouldn't have got raped".

[HEsch]

This is part of the project I'm currently working on, though we aren't on that area/road. Interesting feedback... Wonder if (or how) it has been captured in 'our' data.

[Mike.Gayner]

Not saying we can't do more to avoid the crashes but isn't putting us in charge of preventing it a bit like the "if she hadn't been wearing that she wouldn't have got raped".

No, that's completely ridiculous. It honestly boggles the mind that people have thoughts like that.

There is no malice intended by people who cause these accidents. Stupidity maybe, but no one is deliberately causing an accident. So given that WE KNOW that people will pull into these lanes without looking, wouldn't it be smart of us to avoid riding in those lanes?

[rastuscat]

Not saying we can't do more to avoid the crashes but isn't putting us in charge of preventing it a bit like the "if she hadn't been wearing that she wouldn't have got raped".

It's a mindset. It's kind of victim blaming.

But if we take a preventive mindset, as a motorcyclist, Im interested in doing what I can do to reduce my risk of becoming someone else's victim.

Blame doesnt change the outcome after it has happened. Seeing the opportunity to prevent something is what counts.

[rastuscat]

This is part of the project I'm currently working on, though we aren't on that area/road. Interesting feedback... Wonder if (or how) it has been captured in 'our' data.

I've pm'd you.

[Jeff Sichoe]

so you're saying if we invested in roads in general rather than focusing on specific users then the traffic might flow better and be safer for all?

sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit

[Scuba_Steve]

No, that's completely ridiculous. It honestly boggles the mind that people have thoughts like that.

There is no malice intended by people who cause these accidents. Stupidity maybe, but no one is deliberately causing an accident. So given that WE KNOW that people will pull into these lanes without looking, wouldn't it be smart of us to avoid riding in those lanes?

Is it so ridiculous? Shouldn't we be working on the driving standard rather than accommodating for it?
Shouldn't we work on stopping the rape rather than accommodating for it?

I'm not saying we shouldn't take some protections when riding; just like walking round with ya tits out & a sign saying "enter here" probably isn't a good idea, but we need to get people looking, seeing, acknowledging, driving not just steering otherwise while it maynot be us they hit there's still plenty of kids, skateboards, scooters, granny scooters, pedestrians, etc etc that they could hit

Start with the problem the symptom will fix itself

[babysteps]

32 years ago I passed my driver's license in Auckland as a 15 year old. I turned up for the test with a 6pack of lion red cans in the front seat. The inspector was impressed and said "that will be a pass then". We drove 5 minutes around the block and I had a shiny new car license!

I've never had to resit my license or have any other training since. That's why kiwis are shit at driving.

We should have to resit every 10 years when we renew our license.

Imagine how quickly the driving standard would increase when Johnny Ute Driver is catching the bus to work Monday because he failed.

[pritch]

32 years ago I passed my driver's license in Auckland as a 15 year old. I turned up for the test with a 6pack of lion red cans in the front seat. The inspector was impressed and said "that will be a pass then". We drove 5 minutes around the block and I had a shiny new car license!



Very creative. I don't even remember my NZ car licence test so it must have been uneventful. The others I can remember though, they were more memorable.

[Scubbo]

can't use BUS ONLY lanes in auckland right?

[nzspokes]

My only crash was in a bus lane with a car going into a driveway.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

can't use BUS ONLY lanes in auckland right?
Correct. 10 char.

[rastuscat]

My only crash was in a bus lane with a car going into a driveway.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

You are my model.

[nzspokes]

You are my model.You want a nude photo?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

I use the Bus lanes on a regular basis but you have to be on your game for drivers waving others thru and other random actions.
As long as I'm moving I'm happy to be doing less than the limit as give me more time to scan and stop.
Having done the Train Vs scooter/motorcycle comparison I'm mostly taking the train as its only 15 minutes difference in time.

I did my licence test in Silverdale in 1977 having had paid lessons. The test was more than described /\ /\ and the inspector had to pretend we had traffic lights as the nearest ones were in Takapuna.
Parallel parking was also a challenge as had to imagine cars as none around as eveyone had sufficient space to park on their properties.
I've had to do some retests for companies I've worked for and did a couple of training days at Brands Hatch back in the 90's.
Smartphones have made it worse as you see so many drivers on them usually on the down low. Couriers are good at that and they have tints to assist them.

[slofox]

It's kind of victim blaming.

NZ is particularly good at this...we always want a scapegoat. Someone to kick the fuck out of. It's called revenge and it is live and well in The Land of the Long White Cloud.

My ancestors would have said that revenge is a dish best served cold...

[rastuscat]

You want a nude photo?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Kind offer. Let me think.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OO

[F5 Dave]

32 years ago I passed my driver's license in Auckland as a 15 year old. I turned up for the test with a 6pack of lion red cans in the front seat. The inspector was impressed and said "that will be a pass then". We drove 5 minutes around the block and I had a shiny new car license!

I've never had to resit my license or have any other training since. That's why kiwis are shit at driving.

We should have to resit every 10 years when we renew our license.

Imagine how quickly the driving standard would increase when Johnny Ute Driver is catching the bus to work Monday because he failed.
You'll have to up your game when you resit you licence with me. 6 Behemoth special run cans ought to do it.
I'm not actually a driving tester, but it's only fair to warn you the Lion Red would be a fail.:bleh:
Actually I call bullshit. Was Lion Red a thing back then?

[Scuba_Steve]

Correct. 10 char.

You sure about tho? I mean sure if we're talking the way it's inforced then yea you're right. But inforcement ≠ legal/law

If we're talking what the national law actually says (which overrules bylaws last I checked) then using them is perfectly legal as motorbikes have not been specifically excluded (unless I'm missing something here, I mean I don't live in or visit, if I can help it, Auckland so haven't seen the signs myself)

[eldog]

Message would only be received by those interested.
remembered by less.

GSR in Penrose can be a busy stretch of road.

bus lanes are viewed as only being accessable by buses, almost everyone would anticipate look out for a large rather slow moving object like a bus.

rename bus lanes to something else so people might associate those lanes with the possibility of other modes of transport?

remove bus lanes?

make non bus users of these lanes more aware of potential danger and be vigilant about other road users. You may be legally in the correct position, but this does mean your automatically safe.

Occasionally users (mbikes included) use these lanes to bypass a lane stoppage etc. people crossing this line think that since they canÂ’t see a bus, then itÂ’s clear and push into the lane collecting the other mode of transport user. Often seen on dual carriage roads if one lane is blocked and someone is trying to cross it. (Especially over hatched areas)

other ran those 900 high yellow plastic pivoting pins, would the use of rumble strips or similar between the lanes be appropriate? Gaps as when required.

IIRC LA had carriageways were you could only enter and exit in very narrow windows, long stretches of non interrupted lanes. Introduce areas of no crossing into lanes?

Most people aren’t capable of thinking of others, in this area, it’s a case of getting ahead, no matter what the risk. Smaller vehicles are just forgotten when this mode of driving is occurring

is this what the OP was after?

i used to travel into these areas on a almost daily occurrence, not missing the much more congested region now.

[nerrrd]

After commuting in the bus lane down Dominion Road daily for a couple of years, the scooter riders were the ones that scared me most - the majority mindset seemed to be no stopping (or slowing down) allowed under any circumstances, including past the gaps in the line of traffic to the right.

I’d expect them to be over-represented in these kind of accidents, but I think I only ever came across a couple in that time.

[Scuba_Steve]

After commuting in the bus lane down Dominion Road daily for a couple of years, the scooter riders were the ones that scared me most - the majority mindset seemed to be no stopping (or slowing down) allowed under any circumstances, including past the gaps in the line of traffic to the right.

I’d expect them to be over-represented in these kind of accidents, but I think I only ever came across a couple in that time.

half the problem there is scooter riders (I'm assuming we're talking moped) are just car drivers with 'cheaper transport' & often teenage ones at that

[rastuscat]

half the problem there is scooter riders (I'm assuming we're talking moped) are just car drivers with 'cheaper transport' & often teenage ones at that

Indeed. It's totally bonkers that people can sit a car theory test, get a learners car licence, then go and ride a moped.

With no rider education at all. Same risks, nil awareness. I'll dig into the stats to see if there is sufficient differentiation to identify moped crashes.

Hey, what's a good name for this risk? If I was going to start an awareness programme of this risk, what is a short, catchy name for the crash?

Remember, it can happen in bus lanes, cycle lanes, any time you are going up the left of a line of stationary vehicles.

Yes, it'd be good to target this programme at both riders and drivers who might be in the wrong.

[MarkW]

Hey, what's a good name for this risk?

How about "The Dangerous Right"? Yes you have the "right" to be there but with that "right" comes the risk from the "right" as the nose of a vehicle shoots into the space that the rider is about to occupy.

[rastuscat]

How about "The Dangerous Right"? Yes you have the "right" to be there but with that "right" comes the risk from the "right" as the nose of a vehicle shoots into the space that the rider is about to occupy.

Great starter for 10. Thanks.

[rastuscat]

The Risky Right?

You have the right to do it, but the risk comes from the right.

Genius.

[babysteps]

Actually I call bullshit. Was Lion Red a thing back then?

1982 they changed from Lion Beer to Lion Red. That was Craft Beer back then!

[rastuscat]

1982 they changed from Lion Beer to Lion Red. That was Craft Beer back then!

Craft beer drinkers called it Lyon Rouge back then.

[caseye]

Craft beer drinkers called it Lyon Rouge back then.

Sá rumour, No such thing as Lion Red Beer, it's PISS WATER!
""Entitled but dead"" Rastus, there you go, only fools on horses/ Mopeds and scoots have the 1 brain cell required to believe they have the right to be there, but cant think far enough ahead to know what to do when their nex thought is, Oh, whats that naughty car doing in my lane!!

[rastuscat]

Sá rumour, No such thing as Lion Red Beer, it's PISS WATER!
""Entitled but dead"" Rastus, there you go, only fools on horses/ Mopeds and scoots have the 1 brain cell required to believe they have the right to be there, but cant think far enough ahead to know what to do when their nex thought is, Oh, whats that naughty car doing in my lane!!

Entitled but dead.

Wow, how true. Keep the inspirations coming, I'll send a beer to whoever picks the winner.

[nzspokes]

Kind offer. Let me think.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOThe interesting part is you didn't ask who was at fault.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[R650R]

Here’s what’s happening... person in normal lane is turning and the bus lane user will be in their blind spot. Cars do this all the time to trucks on the motorways and we call it level pegging %#$* MF’s... you get trapped in an outside lane by person going same speed...
The only solution is to apply the old give way rule where if your drivers door can get hit you give way.
So give way stripes and rumble strips in the bus lane at every junction which will prob puss off poor bus drivers. Or the bus lane ends and traffic reserves prior to intersection which would leave an empty lane for emergency vehicles.

Add campaign would switch between visuals of level pegging in bus lane and a gravedigger level pegging a stringline to set a headstone level

[GazzaH]

I like the sound of the thread title.

Land mines randomly scattered and buried in the bus lanes.

After they've blown, not only will the buses have gone, but the potholes will make bikers take more care. Win-win.

And the ad tag-line: "Mined the gap"

[caspernz]

As an IPSGA practitioner like yourself Pete, the lack of hazard perception by the average driver/rider population, explains over 90% of all accidents. Attitude and ego play a big part.

Observed examples aplenty.

Here's a recent one whilst doing some trucker coaching.
Trainee slows for 30 km/h roadworks zone, promptly overtaken by car which shortly thereafter slides on loose seal and lands in water table. Briefly stopped to ascertain no injury, he had a phone so left him to it. Attitude and ego the main problem for this driver.

The bus lane is a double edged sword, it provides easy passage for a two wheeler, but it must be used appropriately. A gap in the adjacent lane should have rider alert to possibility of oncoming turning across, so speed has to stay sensible.
A recent bike vs car involving bus lane, SCU showed rider doing 71 in a 50 in oncoming turning across situation. Outcome predictable, yet avoidable. Attitude and ego again.

Shaking our heads hurts too...

[Berries]

So why don't we prevent it?
Why bother? If riders don't have the road sense to understand that zipping down the inside or outside of a line of stationary traffic leaves them wide open to being hit by a vehicle turning through that traffic then I'd rather they got hit, learnt a lesson and went back to four wheels. Clear lane, bus lane, transit lane, cycle lane, legal or not. None of that matters. All these riders do is just drag the rest of us in to the debate about motorcycle safety.

Anyway, the plunge to vision zero has started with AT doing their speed limits and NZTA having their national review out to tender. As soon as it becomes obvious that those changes are not going to get the results that are being touted then they might look closer at the figures you just quoted, 12 injury crashes in the last five years with five involving motorcyclists. The greatest safety benefits would be realised by banning the use of motorcycles. I may have mentioned before that they are simply incompatible with a safe system and depending how hard TPTB want to push that barrow we could soon be in the crosshairs.

Scary shit - I was at a conference last month where they were showing off mobile speed cameras. Not the ones we are used to here, but cameras fixed at the front and rear of unmarked and unremarkable cars that simply drive around all day taking photos of other vehicles exceeding the speed limits and sending out tickets. Will have to be coming here soon to enforce all of the lower speed limits coming in - I imagine I might have to hand in my GSXR when they go live. I should actually post about that conference. Interesting topic on the link between obesity and lower limb amputation in motorcycle crashes. Turns out fat dudes ride fat motorbikes that don't handle. Who'd a thunk it?

[nerrrd]

Sometimes people are just turning into driveways, bit hard to mark out all of them.

Think I remembered reading on here once someone used to stand up while riding in a bus lane for a bit of extra visibility both ways but then not all bikes (or riders) are suited to that. Cycle type flashing lights for the top of your helmet might attract the turning drivers attention so long as you’re not completely hidden by a high-sided vehicle...but any sort of modulated lighting is illegal for petrol powered transport that’s not being used by emergency services? An orange flag on a stick :lol:? I remember those for cycles back in the day.

[Berries]

Sometimes people are just turning into driveways, bit hard to mark out all of them.
Shouldn't need to for oblivious arseholes. There is a petrol station just down the road from me where the road goes from one lane to two just before some signals, Z in Mosgiel for those who know it. Due to a short merge on the other side of the lights most traffic sits in the right hand lane and often queues back past the entrance. Decent types will leave a gap in front of them so anyone wanting to get in and out of the station when it is busy can do so without sitting staring at inconsiderate wankers who block intersections and driveways. You do however get traffic fanging down the inside lane wanting to turn left left at the signals or go straight on and jump the queue.

It takes two to have a crash. Dude turning right through the traffic needs to inch forward until he can see it is clear. Dude in inside lane needs to be aware that the traffic to the right is stationary and someone could be turning through it at any point ahead. The problem is both of them just ignore all that, the car turns right not bothering to look, the car coming down the clear lane does so at 50km/h without a care in the world. Replace car with motorbike, same same, just it goes from a minor bit of panel damage and a hissing radiator to a broken pelvis with a hissing spleen.

[nerrrd]

I live on a major four lane road in Auckland. Whether I’m turning right into or out of my driveway, often a nice car driver will stop and leave a gap in one of the lanes, while in the other lane they carry on past oblivious. Plus I have to look out for bikes of all descriptions splitting between the lanes, plus there’s a flash median which could have someone in it (effectively a third lane), plus cyclists and or runners or walkers on the footpath etc etc.

My sense of self preservation means so far I’ve managed to avoid any incidents, but I’ll admit there have been times when I’ve forgotten to check for one or two of these possibilities and thought afterwards gee I’m glad there wasn’t anyone where I didn’t look. I’m not sure how much more ‘educated’ about the risks I could be.

[rastuscat]

One of the crashes in the crash study we did was a cyclist turning right through stationary being cleaned up by a car coming illegally down the bus lane.

The boot was on the other foot. Ironic.

[SaferRides]

Interesting thread. I will be much more careful next time I use a bus lane.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

Interesting thread. I will be much more careful next time I use a bus lane.

My work here is done.