Cult founder calls for ban on new mosques.

[Laava]

http://nzh.tw/12284163
What the fuck is this daft cunt up to now?

[austingtir]

http://nzh.tw/12284163
What the fuck is this daft cunt up to now?

LOL

Tamaki's are gunna tamaki.


On muslims though whats this about them getting all pissed at KFC for not providing them with Halal chicken?

They can fook off to Texas chicken if they want their halal chicken.

Rightly KFC told them to get lost.


My beef with muslims atm is their ridiculous amount of control over our meat industry. They now control most of the supply and even want to have muslim's driving the trucks that deliver it everywhere. (obviously they'll have to import those drivers).....


That to me is OTT.

[george formby]

LOL

Tamaki's are gunna tamaki.


On muslims though whats this about them getting all pissed at KFC for not providing them with Halal chicken?

They can fook off to Texas chicken if they want their halal chicken.

Rightly KFC told them to get lost.


My beef with muslims atm is their ridiculous amount of control over our meat industry. They now control most of the supply and even want to have muslim's driving the trucks that deliver it everywhere. (obviously they'll have to import those drivers).....


That to me is OTT.

Funnily enough, our local abattoir has an arrow pointing to Mecca in the killing room. I looked for prayer mats, to no avail.

[austingtir]

Funnily enough, our local abattoir has an arrow pointing to Mecca in the killing room. I looked for prayer mats, to no avail.

So thats apparently how the vast majority of meat in NZ is slaughtered. With Muslim butchers to boot.

I read something a few months back with one maori butcher who lost his shit with them (all the breaks they take and all the other bullshit they pull) and they just called him a racist and got him kicked out, its pretty obvious who management would side with in this day and age.

Thats the way all the slaughterhouses in NZ are going.

[george formby]

So thats apparently how the vast majority of meat in NZ is slaughtered. With Muslim butchers to boot.

I read something a few months back with one maori butcher who lost his shit with them (all the breaks they take and all the other bullshit they pull) and they just called him a racist and got him kicked out, its pretty obvious who management would side with in this day and age.

Thats the way all the slaughterhouses in NZ are going.

I don't think the practicality of Halal slaughter is an issue for the abattoir, the prayer is on the wall beside Bill "the stunner". NZ humane regulations are strictly enforced and monitored, all kills are videoed.

It's an increased market for the producers, no brainer.

All employees work to a very strict time frame, the line slows for no one. Pretty sure it was something like 21 minutes from moo to vac pak. Even quicker from baa to baa code.

[austingtir]

^^It doesnt seem like as much of a no brainer when they try to control everything outside of the original premise.

https://www.opindia.com/2019/10/halal-certification-of-vegetarian-products-its-no-longer-about-choice-but-making-others-pay-for-your-beliefs/?fbclid=IwAR253DWkZVPLNcnA3LlWUyGXppE4bxvcl7PETCbS OMuQ2ZT_kHmfKoQuHXY


I know some people locally had a run in with some muslims at their restaurant due to halal. The muslims didnt check that the restaurant was halal before eating there or it was lost in translation as the locals were chinese. Anyway the muslims ate there then realized what they were eating was not halal and spat the dummy hardcore.

The chinese laugh about it now but it wasnt funny at the time because they thought they might get stabbed over it.

[george formby]

I guarantee exactly that is happening right now in a restaurant not to far away due to some mouth breather spitting the dummy over gluten or eating organic carrots fertilised with blood and bone when they were little carrots.

An Oxford professor recently proposed that people at concerts and the like do jazz hands rather than clapping so the hearing impaired don't suffer.

WTF are jazz hands?

It's all media noise.

I know no one who's community or way of life is being impaired by religion. That includes highly focused demographic areas in other western countries where my friends are very happy to live.

That may change if Density Church gains traction.

I doubt it, though.

[austingtir]

I know no one who's community or way of life is being impaired by religion. That includes highly focused demographic areas in other western countries where my friends are very happy to live.



Luton UK would like a word with you among many others. Christ there are basically no go areas in parts of Australian cities. Thats all documented on video too.

And its because of people like yourself that dont see a problem until its right next them. Then they go holy shit what happened here!?


Those two muslims that were indoctrinated at a certain mosque in a certain south Island city... went to yemen and got droned by the USA.... Again not effecting you or your mates but those two are dead because of a certain religion.

Theres even documentaries here in NZ about a certain christian group down in the south island.... Religion not impairing anyones lives. If you live under a rock maybe.

[Laava]

That may change if Density Church gains traction.

I doubt it, though.
Density chumps are their own worst enemy. Their policies will be their undoing as they are total hypocritical bigots. The only people that are likely to even consider voting for this toxic fucken mess will be the dimwitted fuckwits, gullible enough to go their services.
oh, was that a bit strong? I maybe should have watered that down a bit...

[austingtir]

Density chumps are their own worst enemy. Their policies will be their undoing as they are total hypocritical bigots. The only people that are likely to even consider voting for this toxic fucken mess will be the dimwitted fuckwits, gullible enough to go their services.
oh, was that a bit strong? I maybe should have watered that down a bit...


I dont even see why its news. They arent going to get more than .05% of the vote if that.

[BadSarah]

As I understand it, this halal nonsense is the thin end of the wedge, leading to sharia law. Look at what is happening in England...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[Oakie]

So much potential argument ... but all I'll say though is that I'd rather have a Mosque next door to me than the Destiny Church.

Ok, I can't help myself. I briefly worked for Immigation NZ and in respect of 'Earlier this year, Tamaki called for migration to be cut down to 2000 people annually' ... if that happened, our economy would grind to a halt. Immigrants aren't taking Kiwi jobs, they're doing the ones that Kiwi's won't do. True.

[austingtir]

So much potential argument ... but all I'll say though is that I'd rather have a Mosque next door to me than the Destiny Church.

Ok, I can't help myself. I briefly worked for Immigation NZ and in respect of 'Earlier this year, Tamaki called for migration to be cut down to 2000 people annually' ... if that happened, our economy would grind to a halt. Immigrants aren't taking Kiwi jobs, they're doing the ones that Kiwi's won't do. True.

But on the other hand 80,000 people a year is not sustainable.

2,000 for sure is nothing more than a pipe dream.


IMO immigration should of already been halved this year and should of been down to 20-30k within the next couple of years.

But of course this is probably going to be the only thing that stops our economy collapsing so.....


Changing a countries demographics by 1/6th every 10 years does not a country make. A 3rd world shithole on the other hand yes.

[george formby]

Their was a Density bike run up here not too long ago, it made the news in a tragic way. This was in the run up to the local elections.

I have heard quite a bit of info about the bikes, riders and their actions, from people in the know, and it's shadier than all those books about bondage put together.

[austingtir]

What demographic? New Zealand is so young that it's demographic as you put it, or "white" which is what you mean is still not really a thing.

Its about 70% white.


How's changing the demographics from 70% white to something completely different in 20 years "not really a thing"?


How does that not totally change a country?


All we end up with is different multicultural groups living in their own groups in each town preaching their own religions and asking for their own political power to have things the way they want them.


This is not rocket science to work out.

[george formby]

Fortunately vehement fundamentalists are generally a minority despite the noise they make.

[austingtir]

Um some white people have different religions and cultures? Or does that not count cos they are white?

Yeah but we all learnt the hard way to get along hundreds of years ago and are all on similar pages even if religions or opinions differ they usually arent THAT different...


The likes of those that preach sharia law would not be on that page for most NZer's.

Or those that are nazi skinheads with swastika tats.

[austingtir]

Maybe if we integrated we could use those learnings to get along with brown people?

Its actually a fact that "brown people" are generally more tribal than white people. Hence why we are so accepting and let all these different cultures into majority white countries.

Look at japan?
Look at Saudi Arabia?
Look at China?
etc
etc
etc

Wheres all the multiculturalism?

Nobody tells them otherwise??

[austingtir]

So according to your examples they have the same attitude as you.

Same attitude as me? Im married to Chinese woman.

Proofs in the pudding mate.

Im just stating facts.

[Laava]

Their was a Density bike run up here not too long ago, it made the news in a tragic way. This was in the run up to the local elections.

I have heard quite a bit of info about the bikes, riders and their actions, from people in the know, and it's shadier than all those books about bondage put together.
I know one of the disciples who was riding in the group. They came up behind a farm vehicle quite quickly and the guy in front hit the brakes. A few of them went down and the guy that died was just run over by his riding companions. Riding in a pack gives you few options...

[HenryDorsetCase]

I know no one who's community or way of life is being impaired by religion.

Then you aren't really looking. All religion is bad. Some religions are badder than others but never forget that the core of all of them is a filthy lie, promulgated by people with a vested interest in it and that interest is control, and self aggrandisement. There is a difference of degree only, but not of kind in the kindly old vicar and female genital mutilation. At root, one wants to bring back the crusades and one wants to bring jihad. When they can get away with violence and coercion, thats the path they go down. As a social control measure the command economy of communist China or North Korea is more intellectually honest.

Remember kids: what may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

[scott411]

So much potential argument ... but all I'll say though is that I'd rather have a Mosque next door to me than the Destiny Church.

Ok, I can't help myself. I briefly worked for Immigation NZ and in respect of 'Earlier this year, Tamaki called for migration to be cut down to 2000 people annually' ... if that happened, our economy would grind to a halt. Immigrants aren't taking Kiwi jobs, they're doing the ones that Kiwi's won't do. True.

agree with you here, and i lived next door to a mosque here for 2 years,

friday afternoon prayers never wake you up when your sleeping off a hang over, sunday morning tho,

[pritch]

Ms Tamaki is on to something, and the first "foreign" church to go should be Destiny Church.

There is a mosque a few hundred yards from my house, I had almost forgtten they were there. The area is probably safer now than when the mosque was a bowling club, with all the alcohol affacted drivers weaving homeward at the end of the day.

[sidecar bob]

Ms Tamaki is on to something, and the first "foreign" church to go should be Destiny Church.

Of all the I.F.C's (imaginary friend clubs) theirs is the most intolerant of the lifestyles & choices of others that don't affect them. They're almost as contradictory as the bible it's self.

[pete376403]

Yeah but we all learnt the hard way to get along hundreds of years ago and are all on similar pages even if religions or opinions differ they usually arent THAT different....

Hundreds of years ago? The people in Northern Ireland might beg to doffer.

[mashman]

All religion is bad.

Remember kids: what may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

Thank you Mr Tamaki. Gandhi, King and Mandela prove otherwise. Some people understand what religion is, and some clearly don't.

[TheDemonLord]

All religion is bad. Some religions are badder than others but never forget that the core of all of them is a filthy lie, promulgated by people with a vested interest in it and that interest is control, and self aggrandisement.


As a social control measure the command economy of communist China or North Korea is more intellectually honest.

Replace the figure of Christ in a deeply Religious home with a figure of Our Glorious Leader (curiously also an immaculate conception...) or Mao Zedong - See if you can spot the difference.

But I agree, all Religion is Bad, it's just that I include Religion's that have replaced a Supernatural god, with the God of the State.

[austingtir]

^^

Well done you just owned all the commies posting in this thread. LMAO.

"you must spread some rep around before giving it to demonlord again....."

[Mr. Peanut]

I can call for free icecream and death to anyone who drives slowly then speeds up in passing lanes. Whether or not I have the power to change anything is another matter.

I would like to see New Zealand retain roughly the same demographics it has now. Enough diversity to keep the food interesting, not so much we're a completely disjointed society without any cohesion or trust.

Race and culture matter on a society wide scale, which is why so much effort is put into convincing us it doesn't. Compare a summers evening in Japan to a car burning party in Stockholm.

If you're brain dead enough to think I'm racist, attached is a photo of my ex wife.

343642

[Mr. Peanut]

So much potential argument ... but all I'll say though is that I'd rather have a Mosque next door to me than the Destiny Church.

Ok, I can't help myself. I briefly worked for Immigation NZ and in respect of 'Earlier this year, Tamaki called for migration to be cut down to 2000 people annually' ... if that happened, our economy would grind to a halt. Immigrants aren't taking Kiwi jobs, they're doing the ones that Kiwi's won't do. True.

They're doing the jobs that kiwis wont do, because they're paid so poorly for doing them, because of immigration reducing the value of labour.


<_< Our economy wouldn't grind to a halt, our GDP would decrease, but actual wages would increase, as would incentives for training our existing labour force. I refuse to believe having 30 truck drivers from thirdworldistan competing for a job I could fill in any way benefits me.

[HenryDorsetCase]

If you're brain dead enough to think I'm racist, attached is a photo of my ex wife.

Sooooooo, what you're saying is she's single now?

[Mr. Peanut]

Sooooooo, what you're saying is she's single now?

Mate, you go right ahead. I wouldn't wish her personality on my worst enemy :laugh:

[Berries]

It is a she then?



This day and age etc.

[Oakie]

They're doing the jobs that kiwis wont do, because they're paid so poorly for doing them, because of immigration reducing the value of labour.

Nah. Immigration NZ are hot on immigrants being paid market rate. If the pay rate offered is not considered 'market rate' ie, what a Kiwi would be paid then they don't get their visa. Work permit people are not undercutting Kiwis at the actual wage rate. (There are of course a few who are fiddling the system ... working huge hours for a salary but if immigration gets a sniff of that ... it's 'Ton of Bricks' time.)



I refuse to believe having 30 truck drivers from thirdworldistan competing for a job I could fill in any way benefits me. If you have a Kiwi who has the skills and experience to fill the job, then that Kiwi must get it over any thirdworldistani. The employer must be able to show why no Kiwi applicants are suitable. Edspecially for the lower-skilled jobs.

The perception is that we have thrown our doors open but in my brief time processing visa applications I saw that the bar is set pretty high. Problem is many work visa people can meet that bar. Many of them are also outright liars but that's for another thread.

[austingtir]

Nah. Immigration NZ are hot on immigrants being paid market rate. If the pay rate offered is not considered 'market rate' ie, what a Kiwi would be paid then they don't get their visa. Work permit people are not undercutting Kiwis at the actual wage rate. (There are of course a few who are fiddling the system ... working huge hours for a salary but if immigration gets a sniff of that ... it's 'Ton of Bricks' time.)



Thats bullshit.

I used to work in heavy construction or bridge building as a fitter welder.

Circa 2007 the company I used to work for in Napier hired around 10-15 fillipinos out of a total workforce of around 30 people.

How is it that worldwide qualified welders (these guys had been ALL OVER THE WORLD welding and were very experienced) with more experience than myself were getting 18 dollars an hr when apprentices were getting $19hr or $24-32 for qualified tradesmen or journeymen welders??

And thats not going into how the fillipinos were fiddling the system working for companies not on their visas afterhours....



Thats what actually happens end of story.

You can call that market rate or whatever you want but im telling you now its BULLSHIT ALL ROUND!!!


There is simply no way these companies would hire these people unless they thought they'd be able to get away with cheaper or slightly cheaper rates. the entire construction industry is based around the BIDDING FOR CONTRACTS. Whoever comes in with the lowest bid or best terms gets the work.

Thats how the real world works not the fairytales you are promoting above.

[Woodman]

Thats bullshit.

I used to work in heavy construction or bridge building as a fitter welder.

Circa 2007 the company I used to work for in Napier hired around 10-15 fillipinos out of a total workforce of around 30 people.

How is it that worldwide qualified welders (these guys had been ALL OVER THE WORLD welding and were very experienced) with more experience than myself were getting 18 dollars an hr when apprentices were getting $19hr or $24-32 for qualified tradesmen or journeymen welders??



Thats what actually happens end of story.

You can call that market rate or whatever you want but im telling you now its BULLSHIT ALL ROUND!!!


There is simply no way these companies would hire these people unless they thought they'd be able to get away with cheaper or slightly cheaper rates. the entire construction industry is based around the BIDDING FOR CONTRACTS. Whoever comes in with the lowest bid or best terms gets the work.

Thats how the real world works not the fairytales you are promoting above.

Bollocks, immigration nz specify the salary

[austingtir]

Bollocks, immigration nz specify the salary

Well thats what they were getting paid. What's to say immigration NZ dont agree with the rate at 18hr? Even if it is an apprentices rate.

I think the dollar difference might of been the company paying airfares for them to get over here or something like that consultant fees etc.

[Woodman]

Well thats what they were getting paid. What's to say immigration NZ dont agree with the rate at 18hr? Even if it is an apprentices rate.

I think the dollar difference might of been the company paying airfares for them to get over here or something like that consultant fees etc.

You gonna backtrack any more, or are you done?

[austingtir]

You gonna backtrack any more, or are you done?

What did I backtrack on?

I saw this with my own fuckin eyes. Saw their timesheets with hourly rate and everything.

[Oakie]

Thats bullshit.

I used to work in heavy construction or bridge building as a fitter welder.

Circa 2007 the company I used to work for in Napier hired around 10-15 fillipinos out of a total workforce of around 30 people.

How is it that worldwide qualified welders (these guys had been ALL OVER THE WORLD welding and were very experienced) with more experience than myself were getting 18 dollars an hr when apprentices were getting $19hr or $24-32 for qualified tradesmen or journeymen welders??

And thats not going into how the fillipinos were fiddling the system working for companies not on their visas afterhours....



Thats what actually happens end of story.

You can call that market rate or whatever you want but im telling you now its BULLSHIT ALL ROUND!!!


There is simply no way these companies would hire these people unless they thought they'd be able to get away with cheaper or slightly cheaper rates. the entire construction industry is based around the BIDDING FOR CONTRACTS. Whoever comes in with the lowest bid or best terms gets the work.

Thats how the real world works not the fairytales you are promoting above.

You quote 2007. My experience with Immigration NZ ended a month ago. What you said may have been true 12 years ago but not now. One of the many checks they do is the employment agreement the person has been offered against the market rate using a variety of tools. If the rate offered in the employment agreement is not what the market check shows ... no visa. Simple as that. EG, if a Kiwi hammer hand would expect $22, that's what the person applying for the work permit must get. No fairy tale!

Next year it's going to get even tougher with employer accreditation coming in. Employers must be accredited, meeting stringent standards in all sorts of stuff like quality of the emplyment agreement through to their own financial strength. Without accreditation they will not be able to hire migrants.

[austingtir]

You quote 2007. My experience with Immigration NZ ended a month ago. What you said may have been true 12 years ago but not now. One of the many checks they do is the employment agreement the person has been offered against the market rate using a variety of tools. If the rate offered in the employment agreement is not what the market check shows ... no visa. Simple as that. EG, if a Kiwi hammer hand would expect $22, that's what the person applying for the work permit must get. No fairy tale!

Next year it's going to get even tougher with employer accreditation coming in. Employers must be accredited, meeting stringent standards in all sorts of stuff like quality of the emplyment agreement through to their own financial strength. Without accreditation they will not be able to hire migrants.

Ok thats fine. But im sure they still get around these things in some way or another. We are talking about bosses/owners that are usually either ex fletchers or other major constructions companies like that. These guys know all the tricks and arent silly. I bet they've thought up plenty of ways of getting around what you are saying above. Or have become adept at pretending to.

So what about the ones that do get in and then work for other workplaces afterhours getting cashies?

Fillipinos in particular are bad for this sort of thing because most of them are married and have families and most if not all the money they dont need to live here gets sent back home to support their families. None of them are going to turn down backhanders if they can get away with it. + They network so once they find an employer willing to bend the rules they are there like flies on shit.

Its simply impossible that they could stop all the rorting going on.

### Hello, I googled for 2seconds and the first thing that came up....

"Earlier this year a secret recording was made of Northland transport company boss Stan Semenoff repeatedly threatening to send his Filipino drivers home, banging the table and calling some of them arseholes and mongrels to emphasise the consequences if they didn't speak English, were caught speeding, or tried to find a job elsewhere."

"At the end of April there were 22,593 Filipinos here on work visas, and they are highly represented in the construction and dairy industries."

"We're getting businesses coming to us after realizing their temp worker gets paid $18 to $20 an hour while they are paying $35 to $47 an hour [to a labour hire company]."

And thats all in a lefty stuff article about the migrants getting ripped off by employers....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/113639803/shameful-exploitation-of-vulnerable-migrant-workers

And: Migrant workers make upto 15% of nz's workforce??

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/29/temporary-visa-scam-to-continue-migrant-worker-exploitation/

"There will be a simplified system of employing workers from overseas. Essentially there will be two categories. One for those earning above the median wage of $25 an hour ($52,000 a year) and one for those earning less. Those earning less will need a labour market test like now. But that test won’t be required for higher paid jobs outside the main cities."


And I dont agree with what that last article says at the end. 15% of the workforce imported in is far to high imo and thats the crux of the problem.

[Mr. Peanut]

Nah. Immigration NZ are hot on immigrants being paid market rate. If the pay rate offered is not considered 'market rate' ie, what a Kiwi would be paid then they don't get their visa. Work permit people are not undercutting Kiwis at the actual wage rate. (There are of course a few who are fiddling the system ... working huge hours for a salary but if immigration gets a sniff of that ... it's 'Ton of Bricks' time.)


If you have a Kiwi who has the skills and experience to fill the job, then that Kiwi must get it over any thirdworldistani. The employer must be able to show why no Kiwi applicants are suitable. Edspecially for the lower-skilled jobs.

The perception is that we have thrown our doors open but in my brief time processing visa applications I saw that the bar is set pretty high. Problem is many work visa people can meet that bar. Many of them are also outright liars but that's for another thread.

The market rate is defined by the size of the labour force. If there's more workers, there's less competition to hire them, and lower wages. I doubt very much that there is much oversight on whether or not kiwis are put first in job applications.

A moderate shortage of workers is good for the workers.

I don't have a problem with immigrants, good for them, but look at UBER, it's unsustainable for immigrants and kiwis alike, because it's flooded with desperate people willing to sit around at basically $5 an hour.

[Voltaire]

I’ve been involved with immigration and a ‘ immigration consultant’ recently. All very vague and it’s no surprise their forms have grey sections.
The Consultant was proposing a scheme that did not sound like it favoured employing locals. I declined to proceed.

[Oakie]

Ok thats fine. But I'm sure they still get around these things in some way or another.

Yep. Most common is 'wage recycling' where they are paid say $900 a week. Wage rate looks fine, tax is paid, bank account reflects that pay is happening. But then what happens is the employee pays some of it back to the owner (say $300) in cash which is 'untraceable'. Often, the 'victim' is accepting of this because it is the way things are done in their culture and they know that when they have been here long enough and get their family in, they will set up their own business and do exacty the same the same thing to the next lot of their countrymen who want to come in. (Why do you think so many liquor shops are run by one particular nationality?) When you hear in the news of immigrants complaining they are victims of this sort of rort, it's because MBIE have discovered it first so the 'victim' has no option but to complain, because not to do so shows they are complicit in it.

The other way is to buy a job. I'll pay you $25000 for a job offer then work for you for 3 years.

The very last visa application I handled before I left was pretty much like that where both the employer and employee had warning notes on their files, the employer for 'selling' jobs and the employee for wage recycling.

[Oakie]

I’ve been involved with immigration and a ‘ immigration consultant’ recently. All very vague and it’s no surprise their forms have grey sections.
The Consultant was proposing a scheme that did not sound like it favoured employing locals. I declined to proceed.

Not surprising. Their whole business is based on not employing locals.

[Banditbandit]

Its about 70% white.


How's changing the demographics from 70% white to something completely different in 20 years "not really a thing"?


How does that not totally change a country?


All we end up with is living in their own groups in each town preaching their own religions and asking for their own political power to have things the way they want them.


This is not rocket science to work out.


And the 'white' people are exactly that - made up of different multicultural groups - Anglo-Saxons are descended from the Jutes and Celts, the Picts, Romans, Saxons, Angles, Vikings, Normans, etc etc

Anglo-Saxons are not even the original people - all invaders who won. And all the people fought the invaders (and lost) .. Christianity also won - for a while.


get a grip - it's just people being people ..

[TheDemonLord]

get a grip - it's just people being people ..

There is something to be said for having a commonality between disparate groups of people that allows them to unite under a set of common ideals.

Whether it be Race, Sport, Religion, Nationality etc.

It does seem to me that there is a point at which new input cannot be assimilated, 'taught' and accept those common ideals because the ability for society to do so is slower than the rate of ingress.

That also said, it also seems to me that what used to be near universal ideals (at least amongst the English and their Colonies), have either been forgotten, undermined or simply no longer understood - to be fair, some of those that have been abandoned have been done so for very good reason, others - I'm not so sure. It's like we saw the errors we made when we conquered the world and so have become afraid of enforcing any ideals, lest we get it wrong.

The problem therein is that in our desire to not get it wrong by not doing anything, we have stopped doing things that actually made things right (or more right).

Of course on the flipside, to you Bandit, is that about 150 years ago, you'd be saying the exact same thing to me, so....

[Banditbandit]

That also said, it also seems to me that what used to be near universal ideals (at least amongst the English and their Colonies), have either been forgotten, undermined or simply no longer understood - to be fair, some of those that have been abandoned have been done so for very good reason, others - I'm not so sure. It's like we saw the errors we made when we conquered the world and so have become afraid of enforcing any ideals, lest we get it wrong.

The problem therein is that in our desire to not get it wrong by not doing anything, we have stopped doing things that actually made things right (or more right).

Of course on the flipside, to you Bandit, is that about 150 years ago, you'd be saying the exact same thing to me, so....


Yeah - the problem is these 'universals' you speak of (again) The English and its colonies may well have held those - the Indigenous people who were already there did not share them .. and still do not share them ....

And the times have changed .. the sexist patriarchy has been successfully challenged, Imperialism is dead, the Bourgeois peoples have won, and any attemtp to 'make it right' as you say will be viewed as just more Imperialism and Colonization - Europeans (and especially the English) no longer have any sort of high ground to make pronouncements about the rest of the world .

[austingtir]

Yeah - the problem is these 'universals' you speak of (again) The English and its colonies may well have held those - the Indigenous people who were already there did not share them .. and still do not share them ....

And the times have changed .. the sexist patriarchy has been successfully challenged, Imperialism is dead, the Bourgeois peoples have won, and any attemtp to 'make it right' as you say will be viewed as just more Imperialism and Colonization - Europeans (and especially the English) no longer have any sort of high ground to make pronouncements about the rest of the world .


Pfff what ballony.

I dont know how many bourgeois people you know but from what I can see the elite top tier people have won. And right now they are putting the boot into all the lower classes not just the bourgeois. They give everyone below them lip service and have them fight amongst themselves over perceived wrongdoings like what you are crapping on about above.


Weather those elite are the english or whoever they are dictating how the world is run end of story.


You are being played and you dont even realize it. You have a preconceived idea of how things are going to play out from here but it wont go how you think its going to go quite the opposite infact.

If you thought imperialism and colonization was bad your going to be in for a major shock.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah - the problem is these 'universals' you speak of (again) The English and its colonies may well have held those

There's a whole separate discussion as to what the universals are. The only one I'm certain on is the right to self-determination.

There is also the book Human Universals by Donald Brown.


the Indigenous people who were already there did not share them .. and still do not share them ....

Are you saying they don't share the idea of Self-Determination?

Thinking on this, I would hazard a guess the biggest idea that isn't shared is the notion of Individual property right vs Communal property rights - but that flies in the face of Self-Determination - if you do not own that which you have labored for, you cannot truly be self-determining.


And the times have changed .. the sexist patriarchy has been successfully challenged, Imperialism is dead, the Bourgeois peoples have won, and any attemtp to 'make it right' as you say will be viewed as just more Imperialism and Colonization - Europeans (and especially the English) no longer have any sort of high ground to make pronouncements about the rest of the world .

Except, No.

I can find you umpteen left-wing articles that will happily proclaim that Patriarchy is alive and well. Further to that, it seems that with time, systems based upon class and other unchanging attributes have given way to systems based on competence and success.

Bourgeois have won? Not in the Communistic Sense, quite the opposite in fact. What happened was that they found that under a Capitalist system they got massive improvements in their standards of living. Looking at what is happening overseas, the Left-Wing parties have become the party of the Middle-Class Socialists, not the working Class. Policies like Open Borders are directly having a negative impact on the so-called Bourgeois, which is why they are starting to vote Conservative - hell even Obama recently has been warning the Democrats in the US not to continue down the path they are on.

The final problem though is an intractable one: At some point you either have to enforce your values or submit to someone else's and where the Rubber meets the Road is on certain issues: My preferred example being Wife Burning/Honor Killing. It IS Imperialistic and Colonialist to ban these practices and force someone else to adhere to your culture. However to not do so is to condone (by proxy) for these activities.

I always maintain an absolute on certain issues - that we do infact have a high ground on some issues to make pronouncements to the rest of the world

[Swoop]

Oddly, I'm with the dopey cult-biitch on this one.

ALL religions are bad, but islam is the very worst of them all.
The reason is that every other group of imaginary-friendists' expouse the "our imaginary friend is best" approach to marketing their brand of delusion, BUT islam is the only one that refuses to reason.
If you don't convert to their lunacy, you need to be put to death (according to their novel).
If you become one and then change your mind, you need to be put to death (according to their novel).
If you don't believe in ANY magic imaginary sky pixie, you need to be put to death... in accordance with their book of bullshit.

So, no new mosques is fine, but also a ban on ALL new Houses of Lunacy (of whichever francise) should be the bare minimum in NZ.

[Laava]

Oddly, I'm with the dopey cult-biitch on this one.

ALL religions are bad, but islam is the very worst of them all.
The reason is that every other group of imaginary-friendists' expouse the "our imaginary friend is best" approach to marketing their brand of delusion, BUT islam is the only one that refuses to reason.
If you don't convert to their lunacy, you need to be put to death (according to their novel).
If you become one and then change your mind, you need to be put to death (according to their novel).
If you don't believe in ANY magic imaginary sky pixie, you need to be put to death... in accordance with their book of bullshit.

So, no new mosques is fine, but also a ban on ALL new Houses of Lunacy (of whichever francise) should be the bare minimum in NZ.
I will vote for you.

[Mr. Peanut]

Yeah - the problem is these 'universals' you speak of (again) The English and its colonies may well have held those - the Indigenous people who were already there did not share them .. and still do not share them ....

And the times have changed .. the sexist patriarchy has been successfully challenged, Imperialism is dead, the Bourgeois peoples have won, and any attemtp to 'make it right' as you say will be viewed as just more Imperialism and Colonization - Europeans (and especially the English) no longer have any sort of high ground to make pronouncements about the rest of the world .

Nationalism is rising, Europeans love making pronouncements from high ground, and your mom gay. Just look at what the EU is doing to our hobby. An R6 weighs 350 kg now, half of that is emission equipment and the other half is ABS modules, complex electronics and white guilt.

If we can't make up for the past, then I'm not sure how filling Europe up with angry brown people is an improvement.

We're not going to be treated well as minority, at all. So I don't wish that on my fellow Europeans, which lest we forget includes innocent women and children.