New Zealand Defense Force Shame

[sugilite]

7 Children dead in Afghanistan from Explosive device left by the New Zealand Defense force. 9 incidents in total says the United Nations.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117489366/helen-clark-deadly-unexploded-ordnance-left-on-firing-ranges-used-by-nz-reprehensible

And the New Zealand Defense force are making no comment.
Not fucking acceptable, and not for the first time from the New Zealand Defense force when it comes to Afghanistan.
1. Clean our shit up over there NOW.
2. Charges need to be laid, and jail terms need to be issued - extra time for any defense force cronies that try to stonewall.
Get it fucking done Jacinda, and NOW.

[TheDemonLord]

If the report is true and it was left on live-fire range, then I'm going to side with the above.

Leaving Unexploded ordinance in a Hostile area because you didn't have time to pull out the rubbish bags whilst taking incoming fire is one thing.

But not cleaning up your own Range (presumable that is at an outpost where you had reasonable security) is another (and not acceptable).

[ellipsis]

...pretty sad state of affairs all right...

[sidecar bob]

Waits for Jacindas head tilt & concerned nod.

[jasonu]

Waits for Jacindas head tilt & concerned nod.
Probably nationals fault.

[sidecar bob]

Probably nationals fault.

Bit disappointing were not privy to that take on it these days.
They probably left their shit there under nationals watch, so that will be the blame angle.

[Danger Mouse]

What makes you think that the range wasnt continued to be used after we left?

[Ulsterkiwi]

how is leaving live ordnance on a firing range on an overseas deployment the fault of any political party?
Surely that is the responsibility of the commanders on the ground to take care of?
Unless the politicians gave instructions to not carry out business as usual would such a clear up not be the professional thing to do?
I think NZDF get a bad rap and not always deservedly but at what point does management (senior officers) actually take responsibility?

[sidecar bob]

It's a parenting problem.
If I lived within walking distance of a live firing range, my children would be educated on the dangers that existed within that environment.

[pritch]

I've read the two items including the original one quoted in this thread, and have listened to the podcast. Sadly I'm none the wiser. The journalists know about the tragic deaths of the children but not much else.

A military base would likely have attached a firing range for testing or training purposes. I have the impression though, correct or otherwise, that the journalists may be referring to the entire area of Afghanistan surrounding the Kiwi base as "firing ranges". Clearing that would be a mammoth task and the engineers, or whoever was undertaking the work, would require a strong escort with artillery and air support considering the situation in Afghanistan. The ten million dollars mentioned might not go very far.

It's possible that these journalists are holding NZ Defence to a higher standard than other nations in previous wars. We won't know that until somebody who is familiar with the situation is available to comment. The journalists did say that the Defence people they spoke to were annoyed by their questions. It's possible they were asking silly questions.

Still, on the information available an informed opinion remains beyond reach. We will just have to wait, although this burst of publicity might mean we don't have to wait long.

[husaberg]

It's a parenting problem.
If I lived within walking distance of a live firing range, my children would be educated on the dangers that existed within that environment.

A couple of things Bob in the article it states the range was used by NZ it doesn't mean it was only used by NZ exclusively or it wasnt full of munitions form the US or the russias over the last 50 years.
EIther way if its our fault or not its a sad state of affairs considering NZ support for removing landmines and other unexploded munitions from other war zones
At a guess The kids will be their not for fun to collect the brass lead and other scrap metals it a mater of putting food on the table.

[TheDemonLord]

A military base would likely have attached a firing range for testing or training purposes. I have the impression though, correct or otherwise, that the journalists may be referring to the entire area of Afghanistan surrounding the Kiwi base as "firing ranges". Clearing that would be a mammoth task and the engineers, or whoever was undertaking the work, would require a strong escort with artillery and air support considering the situation in Afghanistan. The ten million dollars mentioned might not go very far.

I certainly wouldn't put that passed the Media at this point....

[jellywrestler]

EIther way if its our fault or not its a sad state of affairs considering NZ support for removing landmines and other unexploded munitions from other war zones
. whatever happened to paul mcartneys one legged kitchen bitch, why didn't she sort it?

[FJRider]

... At a guess The kids will be their not for fun to collect the brass lead and other scrap metals it a mater of putting food on the table.

That is exactly why they were there. There are warning signs there in all the languages, the kids know the risk and the parents know, but want any metal they bring back to sell for money. Or "compensation" for their dead kids (and they usually have plenty). And they're not particular who pays, they just want money. It is a war zone, the whole fucking area is a hostile zone. The Russians found THAT out. The Yanks didn't take that hint and went anyway. After Vietnam, you'd think they'd be a little wiser.

Closer to home ... the training areas in Waiouru are well known to have unexploded ordinance all over the place. That is why the big yellow signs are there telling you to keep out. Ignore them at your peril. One RNZAF explosive expert was killed there a few years back, dealing with some of it. He wasn't even handling it, just near it. The Moawhango dam was originally intended by local Councils to be a public boating lake. But the Ministry of Defense stopped that idea smartly, simply due to the risk of harm from unexploded ordinance. We used to see a few bodies of the wild horses that roamed the area now and then. The odd sheep has been killed the same way.

[eldog]

The odd sheep has been killed the same way.

No wonder I haven't seen any odd sheep there.:rolleyes:

[FJRider]

No wonder I haven't seen any odd sheep there.:rolleyes:

Plenty of odd people there. Go figure ... :shifty:

[pritch]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12286278

On a (somewhat) related matter. I recently heard Ron Mark (Minister of Defence, Minister of Veterans' Affairs) relate a tale. He didn't say where this occurred, I'm assuming Paekakariki or Pauatahanui north of Wellington but...

A boy turned up at grandad's house with an object inquiring what it was. Grandad informed him it was an artillery shell and asked what the lad was going to do with it.

The answer came that the object was to be taken to school for a show and tell. Grandad advised that it couldn't be taken in that condition and proceeded to buff the item up in his workshop.

In due course the kid took his treasure to school. The school did not like it and rang the Police. The Police did not like it either, they rang the Army. The Army decided it was a live artillery round which needed destroying. They were very keen to know exactly where it came from. They then visited the site and found not one, not two, but forty two more live artillery rounds. This was on the site of one of the WW2 US Marine camps. The rounds had just been lobbed over a bank and left.

In the event that it transpires this is what we are actually dealing with in Afghanistan, carelessness with big boys' toys is not new, nor is it always in far off places.

[austingtir]

All im seeing in this thread are hysterical clowns getting their heartstings pulled by fake news.


I just saw a defence official do the 12 o clock news and he said something along the lines of its more likely to of come from american or russian troops when they used the same range. But he could not say 100% that nz didnt leave anything there which sounds completely reasonable to me. Shit can happen.


Honestly if this is the biggest new's story of the week we have very little to worry about.


Now if the low rankers end up taking the blame for this thats when im going to loose my shit.

[oldrider]

Perhaps - "The biggest cover-up in history"? - :o - http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=198030 - :hitcher: - History that they don't teach in schools? :oi-grr: ------- WHY?

[ellipsis]

Now if the low rankers end up taking the blame for this thats when im going to loose my shit.

...I reckon you lost your shit, way back...just a casual observation...or are you just going to 'loose', your shit, again...

[austingtir]

...I reckon you lost your shit, way back...just a casual observation...or are you just going to 'loose', your shit, again...

No just people like you have been so confused by the MSM they dont know if up is down or right is left anymore. Im just here to point you people in the right direction....:motu:

So your fine with top brass in the military passing the buck down the line?

[Woodman]

Perhaps - "The biggest cover-up in history"? - :o - http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=198030 - :hitcher: - History that they don't teach in schools? :oi-grr: ------- WHY?

Wow, just watched most of that. I bet a lot of simple folk fall for it's nuances and language as statements of fact.

[JATZ]

Perhaps - "The biggest cover-up in history"? - :o - http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=198030 - :hitcher: - History that they don't teach in schools? :oi-grr: ------- WHY?
I've tapped out a couple of replies, trying to be diplomatic. But I keep coming back to....
Fuck off oldrider with your WW2 shit. It has no place in this thread. Go copy/paste your crap somewhere else. Its cunts like you who are the reason for the "who killed KB" thread up in GBR.


Wow, just watched most of that. I bet a lot of simple folk fall for it's nuances and language as statements of fact.
You did better than me. I skimmed through it and realized it's just shit I don't need in my life. Wanna go for a ride ?

[Woodman]

I've tapped out a couple of replies, trying to be diplomatic. But I keep coming back to....
Fuck off oldrider with your WW2 shit. It has no place in this thread. Go copy/paste your crap somewhere else. Its cunts like you who are the reason for the "who killed KB" thread up in GBR.


You did better than me. I skimmed through it and realized it's just shit I don't need in my life. Wanna go for a ride ?

Lol yeah, home sick today so had time to watch. Next couple of weekends tied up, so will message you. Not via Facebook, don't go there any more.

[ellipsis]

No just people like you have been so confused by the MSM they dont know if up is down or right is left anymore. Im just here to point you people in the right direction....:motu:

So your fine with top brass in the military passing the buck down the line?


...I don't know what MSM actually means let alone what it is...I reckon you wouldn't know I was fucking you until you coughed...carry on anyway...it's why I came back...

[scumdog]

All im seeing in this thread are hysterical clowns getting their heartstings pulled by fake news.


I just saw a defence official do the 12 o clock news and he said something along the lines of its more likely to of come from american or russian troops when they used the same range. But he could not say 100% that nz didnt leave anything there which sounds completely reasonable to me. Shit can happen.


Honestly if this is the biggest new's story of the week we have very little to worry about.


Now if the low rankers end up taking the blame for this thats when im going to loose my shit.


Dead right on all counts.

The knicker bunching started almost as soon as the 'news' broke.:rolleyes:

Sorry for the kids but to sink the slipper into NZ troops just because they were there? Really?:crazy:

[oldrider]

Civil Unrest Is Now The 'New Normal' Out There:- https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/civil-unrest-now-new-normal-out-there - :shifty:

The Kalergi plan - is it working? - http://demokracija.eu/focus/kalergi-plan-and-the-hidden-interests-behind-mass-immigration.html - :scratch:

[pritch]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117516371/itll-be-years-before-nzs-firing-ranges-in-afghanistan-are-safe-pm?fbclid=IwAR0nbtAeD5AyqNeZTQsC5BQ_PteFJY3ywALIBa wqkDaN9o0n-8UM7FtQyyI

Some of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A forty square kilometre "firing range"? The troops were not there to train, they were there to work. It does seem that the journalists are calling the area around the base a firing range.

Some people I know were posted to Bamyan, next time I see one I must remember to ask for his views.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117516371/itll-be-years-before-nzs-firing-ranges-in-afghanistan-are-safe-pm?fbclid=IwAR0nbtAeD5AyqNeZTQsC5BQ_PteFJY3ywALIBa wqkDaN9o0n-8UM7FtQyyI

Some of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A forty square kilometre "firing range"? The troops were not there to train, they were there to work. It does seem that the journalists are calling the area around the base a firing range.

Some people I know were posted to Bamyan, next time I see one I must remember to ask for his views.

It does seem someone is being economical with the Truth...

[Coldrider]

The NZDF have known about this issue for a very long time. The problem came with a $46M price tag to clean the whole lot up which NZDF did not agree with. Jacinda has known about this since middle of last year. She has stepped in and told NZDF to sort it, money is not an issue, you and I will be paying for it.

[austingtir]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117516371/itll-be-years-before-nzs-firing-ranges-in-afghanistan-are-safe-pm?fbclid=IwAR0nbtAeD5AyqNeZTQsC5BQ_PteFJY3ywALIBa wqkDaN9o0n-8UM7FtQyyI

Some of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A forty square kilometre "firing range"? The troops were not there to train, they were there to work. It does seem that the journalists are calling the area around the base a firing range.

Some people I know were posted to Bamyan, next time I see one I must remember to ask for his views.

What doesnt make sense? The Russians and the USA both have artillery fully capable of firing 30-40kms. So a 40km "firing range" makes sense to me.

Why not use it if its already there before you turn up?


All this further proves is the dumb bitch we have elected to sprinkle fairy dust around the place is an idiot and is being taken advantage of willingly by the UN to most likely clean up the Russians/USA's mess.

And using our taxpayer dollars to do it to boot.

[jasonu]

All this further proves is the dumb bitch we have elected to sprinkle fairy dust around the place is an idiot and is being taken advantage of willingly by the UN to most likely clean up the Russians/USA's mess.

And using our taxpayer dollars to do it to boot.

Standard Labour stuff old chap. Use money gained from actual working folks to pay for other peoples shit.

[Laava]

Standard Govt stuff old chap. Use money gained from actual working folks to pay for other peoples shit.
Edited for accuracy.

[jasonu]

Edited for accuracy.

True enough.

[Katman]

Some of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A forty square kilometre "firing range"? The troops were not there to train, they were there to work. It does seem that the journalists are calling the area around the base a firing range.

Perhaps the constant reference in the article to 'ranges' (as in the plural) might suggest there's more than one range in question.

[FJRider]

What doesnt make sense? The Russians and the USA both have artillery fully capable of firing 30-40kms. So a 40km "firing range" makes sense to me.

A "Live Fire Range" is (for Artillery and other longer range weapons) usually an area you fire into ... not fire from. Less risk of driving/walking over unexploded ordinance.

Smaller ranges ... with the range of the weapons deciding the size of the range.

[austingtir]

A "Live Fire Range" is (for Artillery and other longer range weapons) usually an area you fire into ... not fire from. Less risk of driving/walking over unexploded ordinance.

Smaller ranges ... with the range of the weapons deciding the size of the range.

No shit shirlock.

[JimO]

All this further proves is the dumb bitch we have elected to sprinkle fairy dust around the place is an idiot and is being taken advantage of willingly by the UN to most likely clean up the Russians/USA's mess.

And using our taxpayer dollars to do it to boot. she wasnt elected, winston chose her, he wasnt elected either

[jasonu]

she wasnt elected, winston chose her, he wasnt elected either

Two very good points.

[pritch]

Perhaps the constant reference in the article to 'ranges' (as in the plural) might suggest there's more than one range in question.


Nah. As reported it makes no sense. I won't be seeing anybody who will know until next weekend so I'll just have to wait.

[jasonu]

Nah. As reported it makes no sense. I won't be seeing anybody who will know until next weekend so I'll just have to wait.

Maybe you could look it up on the National Enquirer or Mills and Boon.

[husaberg]

she wasnt elected, winston chose her, he wasnt elected either

Only thats still an incorrect assumption because NZ voteers don't elect Prime ministers.
2 out of three of Nationals last Prime Ministers were not even leaders of the party when the party they belonged two formed a government.

[pritch]

So yesterday I was able to chat briefly to an Afghanistan veteran. He told me that there are three ranges that the Kiwis used for weapons testing etc. He also said that in the event of a blind (dud) they would try and locate the item to destroy it, but that it was not always possible to find it.

All of which raises more questions but we’ll just have to wait.

[JimO]

Only thats still an incorrect assumption because NZ voteers don't elect Prime ministers.
2 out of three of Nationals last Prime Ministers were not even leaders of the party when the party they belonged two formed a government. we arnt talking about National we are talking about the current bunch of clowns

[husaberg]

we arnt talking about National we are talking about the current bunch of clowns

NZ doesn't elect Prime Ministers, we never have.
"The current bunch of clowns" were chosen the same way as the last bunch were. The exact same process was followed

[oldrider]

NZ doesn't elect Prime Ministers, we never have.
"The current bunch of clowns" were chosen the same way as the last bunch were. The exact same process was followed

100% correct - we don't even elect the government - the voters give the elected politicians the right to "form" a government of "their" choosing! - Crazy MMP system! :yes:

[pritch]

Crazy MMP system! :yes:

I love MMP, can't understand why there are still people who haven't got the idea. First past the post was only barely democratic. The politicians only increased the number of MPs to 120 because they knew everybody hated MPs and they were hoping that would be enough to make people vote to retain FPP. Too many people were too smart for them though, you can't fool all the people all the time...

Anyhoo, now that the dust has settled I'd like to see the number of MPs cuts back somewhat.

[austingtir]

I love MMP, can't understand why there are still people who haven't got the idea. First past the post was only barely democratic. The politicians only increased the number of MPs to 120 because they knew everybody hated MPs and they were hoping that would be enough to make people vote to retain FPP. Too many people were too smart for them though, you can't fool all the people all the time...

Anyhoo, now that the dust has settled I'd like to see the number of MPs cuts back somewhat.


No move to Australias system of people actually elected by the people for each region. No list mp's.


List mp's have GOT to go at an absolute bare minimum.

[oldrider]

I love MMP, can't understand why there are still people who haven't got the idea. First past the post was only barely democratic. The politicians only increased the number of MPs to 120 because they knew everybody hated MPs and they were hoping that would be enough to make people vote to retain FPP. Too many people were too smart for them though, you can't fool all the people all the time...

Anyhoo, now that the dust has settled I'd like to see the number of MPs cuts back somewhat.

MMP makes the politicians focus their loyalty upon each other rather than to the electorate - I.E. voters! . We jumped out of the frying pan into the fire with MMP.

STV? - inclines to hold the politicians more loyal and accountable to the voters - a bit more to think about but given as much time as MMP it would be ironing out any problems by now.

[pritch]

STV? - inclines to hold the politicians more loyal and accountable to the voters -

Fuck that! Australia get people elected with less than twenty votes total. Reference that idiot who punched the kid who egged him. I think it was nineteen votes.

'Yesterday I couldn't spell senator, now I are one.'

[oldrider]

Fuck that! Australia get people elected with less than twenty votes total. Reference that idiot who punched the kid who egged him. I think it was nineteen votes.

'Yesterday I couldn't spell senator, now I are one.'

And who finally sorted him out - the voters? - I would like to see the electorate try getting rid of an errant MMP politician - they just come back in on the list. - jobs for the boys! :facepalm:

[Coldrider]

Even the Russian Ambassador is saying someone should be held to account for crimes committed by killing civilians by not clearing up our mess in the firing ranges. Pot, kettle...