The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[pritch]

Mashman, Ivermectin has not been used successfully for anything connected with COVID. There was one 'study' which found that it may help, but that study was defective, there have been no others. There is zero evidence Ivermectin has any effect as a prophylactic for COVID.

[husaberg]

That is ridiculous! They should have a policy of vaccinate or lose your job, then that policy should spread to wherever there is heightened risk of coming into contact with Covid - Most essential workers, supermarket staff, fast food workers, receptionists, shop assistants, etc. If you want to be anti-vax you should have a job where you don't interact with other people! Also, being vaccinated should be mandatory for a lot of other places and activities - we should prioritise the safety of the community in general over catering for the anti-science nut-jobs.

Some ages and heath conditions might exclude vaccinations.
But front-line staff need to be vaccinated.

[R650R]

So I wonder how they console away the fact the biggest cluster currently is a church?

Wrong God? Or God doesn't like dark skinned people? Either way the power of Christian hate is evident.

Only hate evident is yours.

It’s quite obvious that a church gathering of many people in a tightly defined surburban
Area could offer a disease multiplication vector, especially when the culture of those going tend to have large families.
But it’s no different than if the infected patient zero at the church had of instead been a local school student at a large high school during morning assembly speech etc.
The reason for the gathering is immaterial unless one wants to politisice it too single out a group they don’t like.
Bloomfield comments about this made international news....

[F5 Dave]

The point is Dog didn't save them, did he?

Because he doesn't fuking exist.

Or he's a complete racist Cunt.

Go on then. Which one is it?

[mashman]

Mashman, Ivermectin has not been used successfully for anything connected with COVID. There was one 'study' which found that it may help, but that study was defective, there have been no others. There is zero evidence Ivermectin has any effect as a prophylactic for COVID.

And yet Peter McCullough actually did it, and others replicated it. Not only did he do it, but, based on the results he had obtained, that's RESULTS, he also created a multi-drug schedule that changes dosage and drug based on potential comorbities associated with the patient... and so on. Plenty of videos around, one of them of him 'testifying' (speaking at an official hearing that I can't remember the name of from last year) to that fact. His, and the coauthors, produced a paper back in August 2020 that is still yet to undergo peer review. Joe Rogan did a relatively recent podcast (I never saw it, just read about the fallout) about his treating himself with ivermectin and other supplements to good effect too. Plenty of evidence were one hasn't already drawn a conclusion, or is using the pandemic as a political football... which is most likely given that the paper, despite being cited in supporting research of another 39 papers, is still awaiting to be peer reviewed a year later during a pandemic.

RESULTS remember. Results are still counted as evidence yeah?

Edity: Oh, and you can get the schedule and accompanying documentation free of charge from the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons website too... just in case you're curious. Will happily pass you a copy should you wish... but if you get it from their site, then you know that I haven't tampered with it ;)

[F5 Dave]

Did someone hear something?

[F5 Dave]

R650 just messaged me to inform me that God does actually exist. And he loves to suck dick.

But he hates homos and darkies.

Praise Jesus.

[F5 Dave]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126250475/covid19-mark-of-the-beast-or-manna-from-heaven-christianitys-vaccine-issue

[husaberg]

And yet Peter McCullough actually did it, and others replicated it.
Horseshit he did
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-16/doctors-coronavirus-misinformation-licensel
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/lawsuit-former-baylor-scott-white-doctor-used-title-spreading-covid-19-misinformation/287-314400fd-2489-44e2-acf1-da902e247ba4
https://factcheck.afp.com/us-cardiologist-makes-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccination

[pete376403]

Um, that "Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) " outfit you cite:

AAPS is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative,[5][12] and its positions are fringe and commonly contradict with existing federal health policy.[13] It is opposed to the Affordable Care Act and other forms of universal health insurance

AAPS opposes abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception.[14] The group claims there is a link between abortion and breast cancer

The AAPS opposes gun control and does not recognize handgun violence as a public health problem. Instead, the AAPS says that handguns save lives

In 2007, AAPS assisted in the appeal against the conviction of Virginia internist William Hurwitz, who was sentenced to 25 years in federal prison for prescribing excessive quantities of narcotic drugs after 16 former patients testified against him.[41] Hurwitz was granted a retrial in 2006, and his 25-year prison sentence was reduced to 4 years and 9 months.[42]

In July 2019, AAPS co-signed a letter to the Surgeon General of the United States Jerome Adams with the anti-LGBT group American College of Pediatricians, the Catholic Medical Association, and the pro conversion therapy group the Alliance for Therapeutic Choice and Scientific Integrity

Leading up to the 2008 presidential election, AAPS published an article claiming that then-candidate Barack Obama was captivating his audiences through hypnosis.

In September 2009, St. Petersburg neurosurgeon and future president of the Florida AAPS David McKalip received significant public criticism for emailing a falsified photo showing President Barack Obama as a witch doctor with an exotic headdress, loin cloth, and bones in his nose

In June 2020, AAPS filed a lawsuit against the Food and Drug Administration to "end its arbitrary interference with the use of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)."[52][53] In April 2020, the FDA advised that hydroxychloroquine had "not been show to be safe and effective for treating or preventing COVID-19

AAPS has claimed that computers and the digitization of medical records provides an opportunity for the government to acquire massive amounts of private data on American citizens.

In a 2005 article, Madeleine Cosman argued that illegal immigrants were carriers of disease, and that immigrants and "anchor babies" were launching a "stealthy assault on [American] medicine.

In 2004, AAPS filed a brief on behalf of conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh in Florida's Fourth District Court of Appeal, opposing the seizure of his medical files in an investigation of drug charges for Limbaugh's alleged misuse of prescription drugs.

Philip Morris executives worked with AAPS executive director Jane Orient to help oppose growing support for indoor smoking bans in the early 2000s

The association's Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (JP&S) was previously named the Medical Sentinel from 1996 to 2003. It is not listed in academic literature databases such as MEDLINE, PubMed, or the Web of Science. The quality and scientific validity of articles published in the journal have been criticized by medical experts, and some of the viewpoints advocated by AAPS are rejected by other scientists and medical groups.[69] The U.S. National Library of Medicine declined repeated requests from AAPS to index the journal, citing unspecified concerns

There is more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons but to refer to them as a fringe lunatic group is probably giving them a bit much credence.

[mashman]

Um, that "Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) " outfit you cite:

AAPS is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative,[5][12] and its positions are fringe and commonly contradict with existing federal health policy.[13] It is opposed to the Affordable Care Act and other forms of universal health insurance

AAPS opposes abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception.[14] The group claims there is a link between abortion and breast cancer

The AAPS opposes gun control and does not recognize handgun violence as a public health problem. Instead, the AAPS says that handguns save lives

In 2007, AAPS assisted in the appeal against the conviction of Virginia internist William Hurwitz, who was sentenced to 25 years in federal prison for prescribing excessive quantities of narcotic drugs after 16 former patients testified against him.[41] Hurwitz was granted a retrial in 2006, and his 25-year prison sentence was reduced to 4 years and 9 months.[42]

In July 2019, AAPS co-signed a letter to the Surgeon General of the United States Jerome Adams with the anti-LGBT group American College of Pediatricians, the Catholic Medical Association, and the pro conversion therapy group the Alliance for Therapeutic Choice and Scientific Integrity

Leading up to the 2008 presidential election, AAPS published an article claiming that then-candidate Barack Obama was captivating his audiences through hypnosis.

In September 2009, St. Petersburg neurosurgeon and future president of the Florida AAPS David McKalip received significant public criticism for emailing a falsified photo showing President Barack Obama as a witch doctor with an exotic headdress, loin cloth, and bones in his nose

In June 2020, AAPS filed a lawsuit against the Food and Drug Administration to "end its arbitrary interference with the use of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)."[52][53] In April 2020, the FDA advised that hydroxychloroquine had "not been show to be safe and effective for treating or preventing COVID-19

AAPS has claimed that computers and the digitization of medical records provides an opportunity for the government to acquire massive amounts of private data on American citizens.

In a 2005 article, Madeleine Cosman argued that illegal immigrants were carriers of disease, and that immigrants and "anchor babies" were launching a "stealthy assault on [American] medicine.

In 2004, AAPS filed a brief on behalf of conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh in Florida's Fourth District Court of Appeal, opposing the seizure of his medical files in an investigation of drug charges for Limbaugh's alleged misuse of prescription drugs.

Philip Morris executives worked with AAPS executive director Jane Orient to help oppose growing support for indoor smoking bans in the early 2000s

The association's Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (JP&S) was previously named the Medical Sentinel from 1996 to 2003. It is not listed in academic literature databases such as MEDLINE, PubMed, or the Web of Science. The quality and scientific validity of articles published in the journal have been criticized by medical experts, and some of the viewpoints advocated by AAPS are rejected by other scientists and medical groups.[69] The U.S. National Library of Medicine declined repeated requests from AAPS to index the journal, citing unspecified concerns

There is more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons but to refer to them as a fringe lunatic group is probably giving them a bit much credence.

And that has what to do with the fact that that is where the guide can be found?... you know, the one discussing the use of Ivermectin by those who have successfully used the drugs to treat Covid?

Shooting the messenger only works if the messenger is saying something that hasn't been proven to work, or in this day and age, something that can be twisted to suit the purpose of allowing the messenger to be effectively shot without anyone really noticing... you know, like posting a critique of a group of medical professionals v's a list of their personal preferences in order to deny them their medical status. And they're called beyond lunatic fringe by whom? The fucking pathetic?

[pete376403]

And that has what to do with the fact that that is where the guide can be found?... you know, the one discussing the use of Ivermectin by those who have successfully used the drugs to treat Covid?

Shooting the messenger only works if the messenger is saying something that hasn't been proven to work, or in this day and age, something that can be twisted to suit the purpose of allowing the messenger to be effectively shot without anyone really noticing... you know, like posting a critique of a group of medical professionals v's a list of their personal preferences in order to deny them their medical status. And they're called beyond lunatic fringe by whom? The fucking pathetic?

The investigation into Ivermectin might have a bit more credibility if it wasn't published in a journal already well known for this :
The quality and scientific validity of articles published in the journal have been criticized by medical experts, and some of the viewpoints advocated by AAPS are rejected by other scientists and medical groups.

[F5 Dave]

What a cunt.

[mashman]

The investigation into Ivermectin might have a bit more credibility if it wasn't published in a journal already well known for this :
The quality and scientific validity of articles published in the journal have been criticized by medical experts, and some of the viewpoints advocated by AAPS are rejected by other scientists and medical groups.

The investigation/results paper isn't published on AAPS (that I know of), they just host the guide. You can find the paper on Invermectin in the AMJ. Don't get me wrong I take your point with regards to sources, I generally ignore them simply because it's a popular thing to do, coz ya miss all sorts of stuff and end up making statements that just aren't true, like



Ivermectin has not been used successfully for anything connected with COVID. There was one 'study' which found that it may help, but that study was defective, there have been no others. There is zero evidence Ivermectin has any effect as a prophylactic for COVID.

Oh, and do stop quoting me please, coz Dave has yet to master himself with regards to what posts he does and doesn't read and therefore has to get all princess prissy pissant about what other people choose to quote. Kind of like a Nazi, but to be fair, it is for his benefit. Chur.

[R650R]

R650 just messaged me to inform me that God does actually exist. And he loves to suck dick.

But he hates homos and darkies.

Praise Jesus.

Congratulations on elevating yourself to the status of a fraudulent liar.

I did not message you any of the above material.

However did give you a positive green rep for your dark humour in the horse face thread post 42 and commented tongue in cheek well some of them would have though it was just a shower champ.

I find it interesting amongst your continuous hate speech about religion that you choose to appropriate the suffering of the people of the Jewish faith to prop up statements.

All correspondence with you is ended forthwith so don't bother replying. I won't be reporting you (cause that's not my style) because the best thing I can do is actually let you continue to be yourself posting random insults to people's posts with no intellectual substance countering their opinion.
Goodnight, sleep tight xxx

[husaberg]

Congratulations on elevating yourself to the status of a fraudulent liar.

I did not message you any of the above material.

All correspondence with you is ended forthwith so don't bother replying. I won't be reporting you (cause that's not my style) because the best thing I can do is actually let you continue to be yourself posting random insults to people's posts with no intellectual substance countering their opinion.
Goodnight, sleep tight xxx

Sure you did, dave pmed me a screenshot, it was also posted on a website on the net
R650R religious ravings (https://imgur.com/t/goatse/VGpQcze)

[F5 Dave]

Clearly I didn't expect anyone to believe that post. :devil2:

[pritch]

Congratulations on elevating yourself to the status of a fraudulent liar.

I did not message you any of the above material.



You consistently seem unable to distinguish fact from fiction. It never even occurred to me on reading Dave's post that you had DMd him. It was obviously intended to be humourous.

[husaberg]

Remember this interaction after this post.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/159661-Thinking-of-getting-vaccinated?p=1131178070#post1131178070
its hard to tell if hes' a stupid troll or just Stupid. Ps calling him stupid is not an insult, its the only the logical conclusion.

[F5 Dave]

It's a lot of cults for just one person to belong to. The cult of Trump. The cult of jesus. And then the cult of conspiracy.

He must have spent way too long on American websites to the point that he thinks he is living there and needs to be a Republican. I suppose the lack of critical thinking follows and the other two are naturally bedfellows.

[mashman]

I did not message you any of the above material.

... it's far more likely that Pritch received a message from Dave calling him a lying cunt for spreading misinformation with regards to ivermectin, and he's just deflecting.

[husaberg]

... it's far more likely that Pritch received a message from Dave calling him a lying cunt for spreading misinformation with regards to ivermectin, and he's just deflecting.

A not surprising conclusion considering...........

https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/science/2021/07/25/conspiracy-theorists-lack-critical-thinking/
https://www.psypost.org/2021/07/new-study-indicates-conspiracy-theory-believers-have-less-developed-critical-thinking-ability-61347
https://www.sciencealert.com/belief-in-conspiracies-is-associated-with-lower-critical-thinking-skills-but-there-s-more-to-the-story
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339116716_Maybe_a_Free_Thinker_but_not_a_Critical_ One_High_Conspiracy_Belief_is_Associated_With_low_ Critical_Thinking_Ability
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/critical-thinking-in-psychology/critical-thinking-and-the-rejection-of-unsubstantiated-claims/D603C5E4563785527F3A21E126BDF22A

[husaberg]

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/08/31/PDTF/4474d7e4-6c0b-40e2-a1e0-f1e7597c33de-090121NecessaryCOVID.jpg?width=660&height=495&format=pjpg&auto=webphttps://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/30/USAT/6ecdf290-d8ce-4394-9fe0-4c365cd74a04-073021MarletteCOVID.jpg?width=660&height=494&format=pjpg&auto=webp
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/07/29/USAT/533ced9c-0fc8-4c6c-a5dc-c109ea653db5-073021MarletteCOVID.jpg?width=660&height=494&format=pjpg&auto=webphttps://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/05/23/PDTF/e12bd122-62f7-4afa-bc88-c9f277e77dcb-187544939_335165241299287_7568782541723613496_n.jp g?width=654&height=495&format=pjpg&auto=webp

[pritch]

This should be more common.

https://www.rawstory.com/anti-mask-doctor-suspended/

[F5 Dave]

Because intellectuals are often real world stupid

[pritch]

No wonder the Ivermectin didn't work. They were doing it wrong.

[husaberg]

As of Dec 4 2020

1,298,455 Total tests

2219 positive test results

139 (estimated based on 6.3% in previous data of 1600/80 approx) Hospitalised

25 dead

WHY is it SO HARD to find the data on how many people in NZ NEEDED hospital treatment for this.
This number has to be actively suppressed as ALL the other data comes up very EASY in searches.
The answer is so people don’t ask WHY are we scared.
Can you imagine a Pandemic being declared of the PM said oh by the way 93% of you that actually manage to contract the virus won’t need to go to hospital just stay home and rest.
Nothing else matters the maths tells the story, especially post lockdown any new cases should have spread massively as everyone suddenly enjoyed a watered down form of freedom.
And just think of all those Asymptomatic cases in the 3,800,000 people that have NOT been tested...
There should be another 6600 odd positive cases, another 400 extra in hospital and another 75 people dead, where are they????


330 million people in USA potentially exposed to virus, 188,000 dead (and that number is under review)

2.5 million USA soldiers served in Vietnam, 58,318 of them were killed.

ThatÂ’s roughly 2% of soldiers served tragically died in combat.

So far 0.05 percent of USA has died from covid. Or in ‘Merican Imperial measurement that’s 5697 in every ten million dead.
.

These posts havn't dated well, Now have they.
Especially given the US death figures are up to 670,000 now
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/flags-on-national-mall-pay-tribute-to-americas-devastating-covid-19-losses
NZ deaths are 27.

For the record Covud is now only about 130,000 deaths behind WW2 for US deaths.

[husaberg]

I think we will actually end up having a major second wave next year...
The only places not having second waves are the likes of Sweden which achieved herd immunity/exposure. All the countries that did what we did are experiencing second waves, the only thing saving us at moment from it is essentially our iron curtain closed border, eventually, we have to reopen that...
What’s really saved us is NZ’s lovely winter sunshine and easy access to clean outdoor air and a massive lack of public transport systems.

this one hasnt aged well either especially as the death rates for Sweden were worse than near neighbours and for even the USA.
Maybe that's while they don't hire truck drivers to run disease management and health care.
Let's be honest here you don't have any medical or scientific qualifications nor have you manage any contagious disease programs have you?

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-prageru-sweden-herd-immunit-idUSKBN28C2R7

According to mortality analyses from the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center (here), the case fatality rate in Sweden is 2.6% -- higher than that of neighboring Finland (1.6%), Norway (0.9%) and Denmark (1.0%), as well as the United States (2.0%). As a country, Sweden has had 66.76 COVID-19 deaths per 100,000 people, compared to 7.23 in Finland, 6.28 in Norway, 14.59 in Denmark, and 82.72 in the United States.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210714/e2809cHerd-immunitye2809d-not-responsible-for-Swedene28099s-control-of-COVID-19-say-researchers.aspx


Analysis of the time series of individuals who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 in the Stockholm metropolitan area since September 1st, 2020, showed that two distinct epidemic waves followed the first wave that occurred in the Spring of 2020.

Before the second wave arose, the SARS-CoV-2 seroprevalence was around 10%. This rose to 22.6% after the second wave, but before the third wave was initiated. By extrapolation, this gives a seroprevalence of about 33% at the end of May 2021, says the team.


Vaccination is a must
The team emphasizes that this study is not suggesting that it is safe to lift NPI’s, but rather it implies that around 60% of the community could have some level of protection against SARS-CoV-2 under current NPIs.

Such protection could disappear due to emerging mutations and exposure to higher viral doses following the lifting of restrictions, say the researchers.

Furthermore, it is impossible to know if pre-immunity is present or not, they write.

“Based on this, it is our firm conclusion that the vaccination roll-out must continue with high participation to avoid both personal tragedies and COVID-19 becoming endemic.”

[MarkH]

this one hasn't aged well either especially as the death rates for Sweden were worse than near neighbours and for even the USA.

Also - the economy in Sweden has been hit harder than Norway, Finland or Denmark. And - the unemployment rate increase has been worse in Sweden than in Norway, Finland or Denmark. Anyone saying we should look to Sweden as an example of how to do things . . . well, that person just proved how clueless and stupid they are. With around 15k deaths in Sweden and double our population, we would have 7.5k deaths here if things went the same way as there - I think our 27 deaths is quite a bit better than 7.5k deaths. Also - Sweden has not even remotely come close to achieving herd immunity. Sweden is a country we can learn from, but only as an example of what NOT to do.

[F5 Dave]

You would think that R125r would feel contrite about proposing entirely wrong opinions and misinformation. But, no, he will just double down with more, never learning or modifying his behavior.

[nerrrd]

Very happy with the vaccination push happening in Auckland and have now had my first jab.

Not so impressed with my experience as a close contact through some casual 'essential' work I've been doing. Was exposed almost a month ago, took a week to be identified, did another week of self isolation to make up the 14 days, had the two negative tests (although they only ended up being three days apart due to the time it took to identify me) and back to work.

Three days short of a month later, two weeks after I'd completed the fourteen days and gone back to work I got a call from the Ministry of Health contact tracers on Saturday. Isn't this a bit late, I asked the nice lady, she agreed but still wanted to go through a series of questions with me, which I duly answered. And just this morning they sent me a 'daily' health questionnaire to fill out.

I realise this is a sample of one, but it doesn't give me much confidence that the current lockdown in Auckland is going to end in success. I've also been in a position to observe the precautions being taken at an 'essential' workplace and how much compliance there is among the whole workforce (management included) and it's a long way short of 100%, even five weeks in.

So all my money is on the vaccine at this point, I can't see the lockdown working this time and expect Auckland to soon be in the same position as Melbourne. I hope I'm wrong.

[R650R]

11th hour curveball....
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-auckland-level-3-d-day-three-new-cases-in-waikato-including-two-mangatangi-school-students


Glad the thought of Sunday traffic altered my destination of choice yesterday....

Yep mr Neerd compliance fatigue is rife. It’s a bit like wearing your seatbelt everyone knows they should do it but oh I’m only just going up to the shops, they don’t see the day to day trauma ems workers do etc.

Now just wait til
Borders open up and people think their “safe” because of the vax

[MarkH]

I'm an essential worker in the Waikato. I've had my 2 jabs, so at least I'm reasonably safe from the worst effects of Covid. I deliver to a high school and noticed that practically no teachers or students are wearing masks. I'm not sure that the mask wearing being 'highly recommended but not mandatory' in schools is a great idea, it might be a better idea to make masks mandatory in levels 4, 3 and down to 2.

[Naki Rat]

I remember watching this mockumentary when it first aired on NZ TV back in the early 2,000s (just after 9/11) and was pretty moved by the possibility of what it portrays. Roll forward almost 20 years and it has become an all too accurate dramatisation of what we're now living through. The only question is where on this compressed epidemic timeline do you put us presently?


https://youtu.be/E_iifJyP4ZA

[pete376403]

Deja vu indeed. The BBC used to be good at making these things. Earlier there was a similar one "The War Game" about a nuclear bomb dropped on south east England. It was considered scary enough to be banned

[pritch]

It was considered scary enough to be banned

Back then our wisers and betters thought we need protecting from ourselves. At one point three songs were banned: Donovan's The Universal Soldier, In The Year 2525 by Zager and Evans, and Good News Week by Hedgehoppers Anonymous. The latter interesting in that the band members were members of a Brit nuclear bomber squadron. Thus the name.

These are probably all available on the 'Net. Good luck with finding anything scary or likely to lead to a revolution in the lyrics.

[Viking01]

.... Earlier there was a similar one "The War Game" about a nuclear bomb dropped on south east England. It was considered scary enough to be banned

Morning.

Well, given the demographic (and the possible effect on property prices), it's quite understandable that the BBC banned screening it. If it had been located in say Newcastle (upon Tyne) - and in parts of Scotland, then they probably wouldn't have been so concerned. <_<

[pritch]

It was considered scary enough to be banned

Back then our wisers and betters thought we needed protecting from ourselves. At one point three songs were banned on radio: Donovan's The Universal Soldier, In The Year 2525 by Zager and Evans, and Good News Week by Hedgehoppers Anonymous. The latter interesting in that the band members were members of a Brit nuclear bomber squadron. Hardly revolutionaries.

These songs are probably all available on the 'Net. Good luck with finding anything in the lyrics that's scary or likely to lead to a revolution.

[R650R]

I see a popular hipster leftie bar has taken to Gofund me to survive lockdown damage and the new restrictions. They’ve been “successful” about 9k in 24 hrs but how long will that last ....
How long will that sentiment last? Will it be a new business model where you pay an annual subscription like a private members club???

Who pays to drink in bars these days anyway, prices are getting ridiculous....
I blame all these hipsters who will pay stupid money for a bottle of craft beer just because it’s different....
Time for brewery owned bars to make a comeback, The Leopard Inn type stuff????


https://youtu.be/eCs4abeOKuU

[F5 Dave]

Should have stayed at school. You can keep your wife beater swill.

[husaberg]

Should have stayed at school. You can keep your wife beater swill.

Staying in school would not improve the IQ or critical thinking skills, why would it be it is a tough path to financial success if you are a truck driver conspiracy theorist Internet Troll?
Surely those skills are a hot ticket to success?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NiYeQ-LFl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pS1edpeGqI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgUDbvKYbWk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjtRbz1LE4Y

[F5 Dave]

We were just talking of a mate with a penchant for risk and hard work. Vastly richer than I will ever be. Nice guy, and fast on the racetrack.

Just moved from Keenly priced Parrotdog Yellow Hammer to Bohemoth Something Hazy.

Time for a walk on the beach with missus.

Fuk we are lucky to live in this land.

Anyone criticising the general elimination strategy can go suck it and move to one of those shithouse countries like America. (See what I did there?)

[mashman]

Oh dear, another group of M.D's using treatments for Covid-19. In this case, the M.D. is talking to an Australian MP. They compare figures. A region in Oz: 7000 cases, about 450 in hospital and 100 dead. The case notes of the M.D.: 6000 cases, 4 hospitalisations and 0 dead.

You won't like what they use to achieve this remarkable scientific breakthrough, because you've been told not to... yet this guy claims that out of the 600,000 death in the U.S., he reckons about 420,000 could have been saved using his protocols. There's so much in there, including dosages, just in case someone gets a little iffy... but most of you just won't accept what this guy has done and can prove that he has done.

So, those who say that certain protocols don't work despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary are spreading misinformation that has killed millions over the last year or so. Some people even blame Donny McTrumpet for the deaths :killingme...... so filled with irony that I doubt the same people have the stones to take it back... let alone own just how fucking wrong they to the tune of millions of lives. Well fucking done humanity. Well fucking done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhlYa1gowsU

[F5 Dave]

Here's someone who will never have any money. Boohoo.

Why are you here on a motorcycle site?

Doesn't matter loser, I can't see what dross you post.

[husaberg]

Oh dear, another group of M.D's using treatments for Covid-19.

You won't like what they use to achieve this remarkable scientific breakthrough]

What there are using is made up crap......
You are as usual swallowing it land lapping it all up ike the Coprophiliac you are.


Here's someone who will never have any money. Boohoo.

Why are you here on a motorcycle site?

Doesn't matter loser, I can't see what dross you post.

You're certainly not missing much dave, Mashies latest Messiah is a quack, who does his own covid testing and "invented" a 100% effective in his own words cure for covid.

EL CENTRO — The owner of a local walk-in clinic says his practice was misrepresented in a recent article questioning its testing methods and billing for COVID-19.

Wow, let's see his clinic is not exactly as big nor as grand as is made out either, it's a hole-in-the-wall clinic. that opened in 2018


All Valley Urgent Care opened on March 1 and since then has been treating seven to ten patients a day and takes most insurance
https://www.thedesertreview.com/business/all-valley-urgent-care-officially-opens-the-doors/article_b7548128-2b53-11e8-86b9-c7166af8522e.html
Situated between a lowes and a Costco Down by a Wendy's, a Target, and a Taco Bell.
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/ivpressonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/d9/cd94225c-aad8-11ea-a86e-33c6deaedb8f/5ee06ba083532.image.jpg

349693349715

But he's mashy's new idol as he by his own claims which are of course backed up by zero trial results is he 100% cures covid 100% of the time.
but he has no trial results to back it other than his own claims which its seems are based on his own results and his own tests with no peer reviews.
He uses his own test not a recognized test its a Xray which he charges for then performs a diagnosis that no one else ican n the medical profession from an xray and the test that is no to be used as atest to detect covid. as it can tell between someone with the disease or has been simply exposed to it or has antibodies or has been vacvinated.
He then treats the patients he has "diagnosed" with a drug the medical profession has trailed and found not to work at all. plus other expensive vitamins
A drug that Trump took before he actually had covid.


The U.S. Food and Drug Administration revoked its emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine to be used in the treatment of COVID-19 in June 2020. FDA said based on its review of evidence available for hydroxychloroquine sulfate (HCQ) and chloroquine phosphate (CQ) to treat COVID-19,

“Specifically, FDA has determined that CQ and HCQ are unlikely to be effective in treating COVID-19 for the authorized uses in the EUA,” FDA said. “Additionally, in light of ongoing serious cardiac adverse events and other serious side effects, the known and potential benefits of CQ and HCQ no longer outweigh the known and potential risks for the authorized use.”

While Fareed and other doctors have continued to prescribe hydroxychloroquine off label Fareed said he and Dr. Tyson have employed the controversial therapy for more than 5,000 COVID


then got a letter from the ER Medical Director at El Centro Regional Medical Center instructing me to stop prescribing hydroxychloroquine because it would prohibit the hospitals from getting it for those who needed it. (for treating diseases that it works on)

What this numpty does is use a test that's actually an antibody test not recommended to test for the presence of covid then he decided he could use an Xray.

By his own words he said these people were not even sick enough to warrant testing by the medical profession

I was called by the Public Health office and asked to stop testing because we were creating too much work for them, and we could not confirm our patients’ infections. When I asked where else we could send them for confirmation, I was told the ER. The problem with that was — they were not sick enough to be tested.

this is what the CDC and the labs say about the test he uses
Antibody testing does not replace virologic testing and should not be used to establish the presence or absence of acute SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Antibody tests yielding qualitative or semi-quantitative results have been issued EUAs; there currently is no recognized public health or clinical indication for preferential use of semi-quantitative tests.
Antibody testing is not currently recommended to assess for immunity to SARS-CoV-2 following COVID-19 vaccination, to assess the need for vaccination in an unvaccinated person, or to determine the need to quarantine after a close contact with someone who has COVID-19. Some antibody tests will not detect the antibodies generated by COVID-19 vaccines. Because these vaccines induce antibodies to specific viral protein targets, post-vaccination antibody test results will be negative in persons without history of previous infection, if the test used does not detect antibodies induced by the vaccine.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/resources/antibody-tests-guidelines.html

[F5 Dave]

Off you go mushy back to Boris's warm embrace (cough cough) or where ever you came from.

[pritch]

The fifth horseman.

[george formby]

Morning.

Well, given the demographic (and the possible effect on property prices), it's quite understandable that the BBC banned screening it. If it had been located in say Newcastle (upon Tyne) - and in parts of Scotland, then they probably wouldn't have been so concerned. <_<

I'm from Newcastle, ish.

Nuclear bombs are nowhere near as dangerous as Newcastle Brown, I doubt the Geordies would notice.

[Blackbird]

I'm from Newcastle, ish.

Nuclear bombs are nowhere near as dangerous as Newcastle Brown, I doubt the Geordies would notice.

Hahahaha! Used to drink that before we came to NZ. Oh, the sore heads :weep: . I haven't tried to chase it down in NZ for nostalgia's sake for many years but found some at the Merchant of Taupo. Bloody sacrilege - they had it in the chiller!

[Naki Rat]

Some wise words from Chopper

https://youtu.be/_NPcI3ItgNg

[pete376403]

Peter Watkins who produced and directed "The War Game" previously made another docudrama, "Culloden". That was also pretty gruesome

[R650R]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300414808/sir-john-key-we-need-to-break-free-of-the-hermit-kingdom-and-stop-ruling-by-fear-on-covid19

[F5 Dave]

I was just about to post that. For an obviously intelligent man he cab say some dumbfuck wilfully ignorant things.

Starting with emotive Hermit crab stuff and then comparing us to North Korea 3 times. FFS I think its pretty disingenuous to the poor sods there to even mention our countries in the same sentence.

He's banging on like we've all had both jabs. Yeah you might have Sir John but we are at 38% or something and the hospital system would have sunk given decades of underfunding by, well cunts just like you. You don't ramp that shit back up in a year.

Scenes like New York with queues of ambulances with people who can't get in dying in them as beds all full and doctors sick too. They were better prepared after 911 and better funded.

That's why if he or English were in power at the time we would have not closed the borders to help tourism. If course that industry would be fucked as no local tourism to hold them over.

To think I voted for that dick. Age has made him disconnected with reality.

[nerrrd]

Yeah the ‘smug hermit kingdom’ and ‘North Korea’ references are stupid. So is the ‘ruling by fear’, unless by ‘fear’ he means sensible public health measures under the circumstances.

Also successfully setting up privately run MIQ facilities and a home-based quarantine system is not going to be as simple as he makes it sound.

If I was being uncharitable, I might also think that his desire to open up the borders is motivated more by his and his wealthy cohorts desire to spend most of the year overseas than his concern for everyday NZers stuck there.

And his inclusion of those wanting to come home to visit dying relatives in the MIQ lottery is factually wrong, there are provisions in place for jumping the queue on compassionate grounds.

And how can a lottery be unfair when there are limited spaces available? Unfair to John and co because now it’s much harder for those better resourced individuals and their family members to play the system, perhaps?

So whatever the John Key appeal is or was, it’s still a mystery to me.

[husaberg]

I was just about to post that. For an obviously intelligent man he cab say some dumbfuck wilfully ignorant things.

Starting with emotive Hermit crab stuff and then comparing us to North Korea 3 times. FFS I think its pretty disingenuous to the poor sods there to even mention our countries in the same sentence.

He's banging on like we've all had both jabs. Yeah you might have Sir John but we are at 38% or something and the hospital system would have sunk given decades of underfunding by, well cunts just like you. You don't ramp that shit back up in a year.

Scenes like New York with queues of ambulances with people who can't get in dying in them as beds all full and doctors sick too. They were better prepared after 911 and better funded.

That's why if he or English were in power at the time we would have not closed the borders to help tourism. If course that industry would be fucked as no local tourism to hold them over.

To think I voted for that dick. Age has made him disconnected with reality.


The Helen Clark-led Labour Government cut Government debt from 23 per cent when it came into power to 5 per cent, as the global economy boomed.
Debt has shot up under National, from 5 per cent when it came to power to nearly 25 per cent in 2017.


Under John Key and Bill English, debt as a percentage of GDP skyrocketed from 9.1 percent to 24.6 percent. Before COVID-19, our Government reduced this debt to below 20 percent of GDP – and thanks to our careful economic management, we’ve been able to get our economy moving faster through our COVID recovery.

The numbers show this wasn’t a one-off. Helen Clark’s Labour Government inherited a net debt of 23.9 percent of GDP from the Bolger/Shipley Government, which Labour’s Finance Minister Michael Cullen paid down to 5.4 percent of GDP.


The Government made no secret it was borrowing more than it needed in the year to 30 June 2011. Early in May, Prime Minister John Key told Parliament the Government’s bond programme for the year had recently been extended to $20 billion. This was more than required for the year, but the Debt Management Office was front-loading some borrowing to take advantage of favourable market conditions.
This meant new debt had averaged $380 million week, an “absolutely unaffordable” increase, Key said. This inevitably invited follow-up Opposition questions about whether the Government could afford to spend $44 million week on tax cuts for the wealthiest 10 percent of our country, and so on – but that’s another issue. The focus here is on borrowing and its consequences.
On 7 June, when questioned about the Government’s borrowing requirements, Finance Minister Bill English elaborated: the Debt Management Office had borrowed about $5 billion more than was strictly necessary in 2010/11 to take advantage of beneficial market conditions. Over the next 12 months, as consequence, it would borrow about $5 billion less because it already has the money in the bank. Given the state of world financial markets, he regarded this – in hindsight – as “a very smart move”.


Government debt has reached $60 billion, having climbed $27 million a day since John Key became prime minister - and forecasts show it will rise for years to come.
Despite tax revenue being higher than expected and expenses lower in recent months, Treasury figures show net Crown debt reached the highest yet at $60,015,000,000 at the end of September.
It already equates to 28 per cent of New Zealand's economic output, is more than $13,000 for every person in New Zealand and is forecast to climb by another $10b by 2017.
When National took control of the Beehive in 2008, debt was just over $10b,


Under National Mortgage interest rates reached 9.99 per cent. I certainly remember how my debt stayed scarily stagnant, but my salary kept being taken by the bank. I sold my house for $40,000 less than I'd bought it for four years earlier. Crash, bang and crunch.
The cowards, cowboys, the unskilled and the vulnerable were cleaned out by the global financial crisis. A $50 billion revenue hole was discovered in the Government's books. National was borrowing $250 million a week to pay the most basic of our country's bills. Teachers, nurses and our police were paid by swiping the country's credit card.


ational leader John Key has confirmed that a future National government would borrow to finance its tax cuts and spending plans, Finance Minister Michael Cullen warned today.


On Newstalk ZB this morning Mr Key said 'certainly under a National government net debt…will rise.'
"It is clear Mr Key is repeating his comments in the House last week when he indicated he would be prepared to borrow against the assets of the New Zealand Superannuation Fund.
"We are only in a positive net asset position because of the wise build up of assets in the New Zealand Superannuation Fund which National belatedly supported.
"The fact that we have the Super Fund is not a reason to increase debt.
That would wipe out the purpose of the fund, which is to meet future liabilities from our ageing population.

"If we have higher debt, government payments on interest will be higher,
restricting our ability to make investments today.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/319701/john-key's-$400bn-legacy
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9380846/Public-debt-climbs-by-27m-a-day
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96138164/duncan-garner-after-nine-years-in-power-why-is-nationals-report-card-so-full-of-fails
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/what-will-be-next-excuse-borrow-tax-cuts
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/key-confirms-borrow-and-hope-policy

[sugilite]

Irony comes in hot and heavy at the 9.50 mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WYBef5gVao

[F5 Dave]

Take that Bitch

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300416664/anna-fifield-no-sir-john-key-new-zealand-is-not-like-north-korea

[Naki Rat]

And then there's this: https://twitter.com/BadCOVID19Takes/status/1441935888099905537/photo/1

Some classic comments on that tweet too

[pete376403]

Take that Bitch

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300416664/anna-fifield-no-sir-john-key-new-zealand-is-not-like-north-korea


Kim Jon Ki has already had one go at fucking over NZ. Sounds like he is setting yjiong in motion to get another turn at becoming supreme leader

[pete376403]

And has no problem creating lies to fit his narrative:

As John Key took to the airwaves to take on the Government over its Covid-19 response, he said we could have paid for priority delivery of the Pfizer vaccine – a claim the company says is 'incorrect and baseless'.

Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer has categorically denied former prime minister John Key’s claim that New Zealand could have paid $40 million for earlier access to its Covid-19 vaccine, saying the notion is “incorrect and baseless”.

[pritch]

And has no problem creating lies to fit his narrative:

As John Key took to the airwaves to take on the Government over its Covid-19 response, he said we could have paid for priority delivery of the Pfizer vaccine – a claim the company says is 'incorrect and baseless'.

Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer has categorically denied former prime minister John Key’s claim that New Zealand could have paid $40 million for earlier access to its Covid-19 vaccine, saying the notion is “incorrect and baseless”.



I did read something that said this was always "fake news". The National Party grabbed at it, the press didn't question it, and now Key used it. Classic example of how misinformation spreads. Our journalists need a rocket up the arse.

[Dadpole]

Our journalists need a rocket up the arse.

I think the real journalists have retired. These days it seems to be would-be 'influencers' repeating what they saw on social media or read in a press release.

[pritch]

I think the real journalists have retired. These days it seems to be would-be 'influencers' repeating what they saw on social media or read in a press release.

There's a lot of truth in that. Someone I know has a family connection to a newspaper. He says the paper just can't offer the money to attract a qualified journo. They hire young unqualified people.

[R650R]

There's a lot of truth in that. Someone I know has a family connection to a newspaper. He says the paper just can't offer the money to attract a qualified journo. They hire young unqualified people.

Cadetships in journalism have always been common at bottom of ladder, good on the job training has always been better than a qualification. However now it’s the blind leading the blind.

One of the worst things is for a journalist to inject themselves into the story. All we should know Is they wrote it, we should not know their opinion or experiences in regard to story. They are supposed to interview both sides and accurately quote what they said.

So often a news article is a barely disguised opinion piece missing the critical who,what,where, when, why, how of the situation.

But now we have a generation of fatherless youth indoctrinated by mostly lefty/greenie/feminist teachers coming into journalism with the millennial sense of entitlement along with thinking in folly of youth that they know everything....

Mind you one of HSTs great quotes “ If I wrote the absolute truth I know, about 600 people including myself would be dead “

Then there’s our $55milluon of govt “sponsorship”....

https://spectator.com.au/2021/09/the-bribing-of-the-new-zealand-media/

[Dadpole]

https://spectator.com.au/2021/09/the-bribing-of-the-new-zealand-media/

further reading: https://muckrack.com/amy-brooke/articles
http://www.100days.co.nz/

That shows all the hallmarks of a replacement for that Whale Oil turdfest.

[Dadpole]

I believe some of the problem is that publishing online is a very low-cost way to produce a lot of content and that is how success is measured. Any loony - including me - can submit an 'option piece' and (provided it is not too objectionable) have it added to the Herald, Spectator etc.
If they had to commit to costly printing, most of the current ramblings would end up in the Editors bin.

[neels]

So every day there is another article about someone who has travelled to oz in the last few months, and now can't get home, and it seems to be everyone else's fault.

Did they not read this bit of the press release when the travel bubble was announced? https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/trans-tasman-bubble-start-19-april
Quarantine free travel will not be what it was pre-COVID-19, and those undertaking travel will do so under the guidance of ‘flyer beware’. People will need to plan for the possibility of having travel disrupted if there is an outbreak

My particular favourite from the last few days are the people who flew to WA to go and get a caravan, after the NSW Covid outbreak had started, and now want the taxpayer to stump up for more MIQ facilities so they can come home, or just let them back in and hope they haven't brought covid with them.

Then there are the people who have lived overseas for 5,10,15,20 years, and have now decided it's a good time to come back to NZ.

I certainly get the plight of people who left a bit before the shitfight started and are stuck overseas with expired visas etc, or have no choice but to travel to earn a living, and they should probably be a priority to get back home.

Perhaps I'm a bit unsympathetic, but for those who have departed recently assuming nothing would go wrong, or lived overseas for a number of years, you've made a choice at some point to be where you are so now you get to work through the outcome of that choice.

[neels]

And how can a lottery be unfair when there are limited spaces available? Unfair to John and co because now it’s much harder for those better resourced individuals and their family members to play the system, perhaps?
That probably sums it up.

In the capitalist world of privatise the profit and socialise the cost, they don't care if a particular service is inadequately funded because they can afford it on the private market, so the concept of a situation arising where they can't buy their way ahead of the poor people is probably very difficult to comprehend.

[F5 Dave]

Let's go for a fuking holiday in a pandemic. Yeah sympathy is not the first emotion.

[pete376403]

So every day there is another article about someone who has travelled to oz in the last few months, and now can't get home, and it seems to be everyone else's fault.

Did they not read this bit of the press release when the travel bubble was announced? https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/trans-tasman-bubble-start-19-april
Quarantine free travel will not be what it was pre-COVID-19, and those undertaking travel will do so under the guidance of ‘flyer beware’. People will need to plan for the possibility of having travel disrupted if there is an outbreak

My particular favourite from the last few days are the people who flew to WA to go and get a caravan, after the NSW Covid outbreak had started, and now want the taxpayer to stump up for more MIQ facilities so they can come home, or just let them back in and hope they haven't brought covid with them.

Then there are the people who have lived overseas for 5,10,15,20 years, and have now decided it's a good time to come back to NZ.

I certainly get the plight of people who left a bit before the shitfight started and are stuck overseas with expired visas etc, or have no choice but to travel to earn a living, and they should probably be a priority to get back home.

Perhaps I'm a bit unsympathetic, but for those who have departed recently assuming nothing would go wrong, or lived overseas for a number of years, you've made a choice at some point to be where you are so now you get to work through the outcome of that choice.

I'm with you on this and especially the superannuits who are crying their benefit will be stopped because they cant get home in time. They have to be away 26 weeks - 6 months - for that to happen. Thats a pretty good break for a beneficiary.

[pritch]

Then there’s our $55milluon of govt “sponsorship”....


I like the Spectator, but when you read it you have to keep in mind that there can be a pronounced lean to the right. Boris Johnson used to be the editor, I seem to recall he left under a cloud. Something to do with screwing the crew?

The Australians are in no position to poke crap at our media. It seems most of theirs is owned by Murdoch and they're all straining to outdo Fox "News" on the RWNJ front.

[husaberg]

Then there’s our $55milluon of govt “sponsorship”....


https://www.rnz.co.nz/assets/news/157388/eight_col_graph.jpg?1531267974
its closer to 35 million last time i looked.
https://www.nzonair.govt.nz/about/our-funding-strategy/rnz/
I remember Key giving Rio Tinto that much

the 55 million is the total NZ on air funding for TV radio print opera everything its NZ on air funding
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/pm-defends-30m-payout-to-rio-tinto/POUX7K7LI7MGQAPOM6XMFJQFSY/
There is 55 million over 3 years on journalism
https://www.nzonair.govt.nz/funding/journalism-funding/
Another $500,000 will be used to research how Crown-funded media agencies can use their assets more efficiently and to work out the future level of funding required for public media.

public media in New Zealand was poorly funded compared with other countries of a similar size and with Australia.
Your posts never seem to stand up to any scrutiny

The money funded to RNZ has been funded to it through all govts because
https://www.nzonair.govt.nz/news/july-2020-funding-decisions/#platforms

I might also point out News talk ZB the home of NZ most right-wing commentator receives funding from NZ on Air.

Is your troll tummy full now?

[JATZ]

So every day there is another article about someone who has travelled to oz in the last few months, and now can't get home, and it seems to be everyone else's fault.

Did they not read this bit of the press release when the travel bubble was announced? https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/trans-tasman-bubble-start-19-april
Quarantine free travel will not be what it was pre-COVID-19, and those undertaking travel will do so under the guidance of ‘flyer beware’. People will need to plan for the possibility of having travel disrupted if there is an outbreak

My particular favourite from the last few days are the people who flew to WA to go and get a caravan, after the NSW Covid outbreak had started, and now want the taxpayer to stump up for more MIQ facilities so they can come home, or just let them back in and hope they haven't brought covid with them.

Then there are the people who have lived overseas for 5,10,15,20 years, and have now decided it's a good time to come back to NZ.

I certainly get the plight of people who left a bit before the shitfight started and are stuck overseas with expired visas etc, or have no choice but to travel to earn a living, and they should probably be a priority to get back home.

Perhaps I'm a bit unsympathetic, but for those who have departed recently assuming nothing would go wrong, or lived overseas for a number of years, you've made a choice at some point to be where you are so now you get to work through the outcome of that choice.


Let's go for a fuking holiday in a pandemic. Yeah sympathy is not the first emotion.

Instead of sympathy, try a little compassion.
Some of these people are in this position through no fault of their own.
It's not easy being locked out of your own home country. DAMHIK....

[R650R]

Instead of sympathy, try a little compassion.
Some of these people are in this position through no fault of their own.
It's not easy being locked out of your own home country. DAMHIK....

100% agree. We don’t know people’s personal circumstances. Of course the media will cherry pick the most controversial story to report on to stir things up.
How many of us right now could safely pick up everything’s and move somewhere?
Employment contracts, kids schooling, mortgages... tough time to take that plunge to come back to a country with a massive shortage and rapid rising house price bubble.
I was buggered when I came home from UK years ago, exchange rate shifted significantly meaning I had to sit on my cash til it moved to somewhere better.

[R650R]

I believe some of the problem is that publishing online is a very low-cost way to produce a lot of content and that is how success is measured. Any loony - including me - can submit an 'option piece' and (provided it is not too objectionable) have it added to the Herald, Spectator etc.
If they had to commit to costly printing, most of the current ramblings would end up in the Editors bin.

Yep stuff nation section wouldn’t exist you know the bit wherever they let anyone write free material, god there are some suckers out there.
Success is actually in readership which then prices your add revenue. How you accurately measure this in digital real world must be problematic.
The real problem is they drastically altered their business model.
Originally there was quality accurate respectable material produced.
Then in classic race to bottom digital was used to rush out stories with poor grammar and facts missing or inaccurate. Bit like if NASA moved out of rockets into selling fireworks...,
Our semi respected local rag moved from years of successful afternoon publishing to being a morning paper, touted it saving being the right move etc.... so they’ve went from selling last nights and today’s news today to selling yesterday’s and two days ago news this morning...

People will always pay and sometimes pay too much for quality goods and services, but producing lower quality material always means failure never mind if you let political bias in on top.

[F5 Dave]

So, anyone care to elaborate how are in the situation where our largest city is still in lockdown and many people are facing life changing circumstances as a result? Anyone?

[Dadpole]

I live somewhere else, so I vote we bomb them. :2thumbsup

[pete376403]

A city where most of the people following the rules are held to ransom by a minority of fucktards, from brian tamaki downwards

[Kickaha]

I live somewhere else, so I vote we bomb them. :2thumbsup

“I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”

[george formby]

A city where most of the people following the rules are held to ransom by a minority of fucktards, from brian tamaki downwards

Upwards from him, shirley?

[F5 Dave]

“I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”

Well I'm at the other end of the island but I'd like to do my bit. If we need to die in a nuclear fireball then it's probably all for the best.

[Berries]

It is a little bit too risky. Makes more sense to nuke the whole north island. IMHO.

And Canterbury.

[george formby]

In less incendiary news, but no less flammable..

I just read on another venerable forum that Density Church and Shysters inc claimed $127'903.20 in wage subsidies (thus far) during this lock down.

After today I hope they have to return every cent plus interest.

[Kickaha]

Well I'm at the other end of the island but I'd like to do my bit. If we need to die in a nuclear fireball then it's probably all for the best.

http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&kt=350&lat=-36.8268747&lng=174.6372986&hob_psi=5&hob_ft=7220&ff=50&psi=20,5,1&zm=11

We're going to need at least two 350kt to do it properly, one on Chatswood and one on Otara, the good news is that you should be safe in Welly

[F5 Dave]

Oh thank you, do appreciate it. Would be relatively inconvenient.

Really struggling with what dirtbike to buy.

[Kickaha]

Really struggling with what dirtbike to buy.

Beta 300 X Trainer

[pritch]

A couple of milestones: The US has now passed 700,000 deaths from Covid, WHO say the world death toll has hit five million. But hey, let's open our borders.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah been watching YouTube stuff and there are some suspension mods just arms don't cope with getting beat up on some if the whoop tracks. Lower seat height is a must so on my radar.

[MarkH]

I say: drop all restrictions and open our borders by Xmas! Should be enough time for all non-retards to get vaccinated by then?
To save our hospitals from being overloaded we could offer all anti-vaxxers an injection of pain relief/euthanasia.

[caseye]

I say: drop all restrictions and open our borders by Xmas! Should be enough time for all non-retards to get vaccinated by then?
To save our hospitals from being overloaded we could offer all anti-vaxxers an injection of pain relief/euthanasia.

Gets my vote!:headbang:

[Kickaha]

Yeah been watching YouTube stuff and there are some suspension mods just arms don't cope with getting beat up on some if the whoop tracks. Lower seat height is a must so on my radar.
I've had a decent ride on one and and a full size RR, both extremely good but I'd take the X Trainer

Open the borders, no lockdowns, let everyone die who is going to

[george formby]

I've had a decent ride on one and and a full size RR, both extremely good but I'd take the X Trainer

Open the borders, no lockdowns, let everyone die who is going to

Keeping on topic.....




Would you say that the X trainer is more suited to technical, trialsy sort of riding? I'm not interested in speed, nor am I interested in muscling a full size bike through steep, nasty bush tracks which is what I mainly ride.

[R650R]

A city where most of the people following the rules are held to ransom by a minority of fucktards, from brian tamaki downwards

Let’s not forget where this outbreak started.... I don’t think it was at destiny church
How many were there? Several hundred? Out of a local city population of several million!!!!
Let’s assume the majority of auckland 95-99% are following the rules... that should stop the virus from spreading as it’s same as herd immunity from say being vaccinated.
Cause if you wear a mask and wash your hands you can’t get the virus.

Jacindas even say no more level four so she’s pretty confident it’s under control

We should all take time to thank the Asian community a massive 94% vaccination rate, man they just over achieve at everything well done

[F5 Dave]

Keeping on topic.....




Would you say that the X trainer is more suited to technical, trialsy sort of riding? I'm not interested in speed, nor am I interested in muscling a full size bike through steep, nasty bush tracks which is what I mainly ride.
On the motorcycle forum, heck let's talk bikes for a while.

The more I think I could buy the RR and shorten the suspension a tickle to make it same as my GasGas. The Xtrainer sounds great, superb even, for 50% of the riding I do, 'ok' for 30% and miserable for 20% of the whooped out sections on farm tracks etc that beat you up on a badly or rather inappropriately suspended bike.

I'd probably miss the extra zing a lively 300 gives. But keen to discuss as I've ridden neither.

[caspernz]

I say: drop all restrictions and open our borders by Xmas! Should be enough time for all non-retards to get vaccinated by then?
To save our hospitals from being overloaded we could offer all anti-vaxxers an injection of pain relief/euthanasia.

It's a shame there's so much garbage around the vaccine floating on social media :( and cretins are taking heed of it.
Drop the restrictions soon, as long as we've given the vulnerable groups the chance to get vaxxed, good luck to those who don't want to get the jab :rolleyes:

[R650R]

From what I can find after a frustrating search we currently have around 1380 Delta cases in total for this outbreak. On the official govt site we’ve had 4400 cases of covid 19 but it’s unclear if this includes the recent delta outbreak or not.

Also the number of exposure locations of interest, it’s over 250 ( pretty sure I saw 800 somewhere) but that wasn’t recent article and numbers of close contacts????
This was main focus of news articles early on but seems to be disappearing??????

Kiwi biker fact-checkers ready set go....

[husaberg]

From what I can find after a frustrating search we currently have around 1380 Delta cases in total for this outbreak. On the official govt site we’ve had 4400 cases of covid 19 but it’s unclear if this includes the recent delta outbreak or not.

...
You have never been interested in facts before.
But that took nearly 15 seconds
4,382 cases covid nz to date in total vs 43 million cases in the US
what you dont mention is the number of deaths in NZ vs the USA
27 vs 700,000 deaths
or nz deaths 5 per million vs 2,159 per million pop


Or Australia
111,388 cases
Deaths
1,334
or 52 deaths per million pop


Vaccine Nz
Total doses given 5,221,014
People fully vaccinated 1,925,370
% of population 38.7%
People given at least one dose 3,295,644
% of population 66.2%


vaccine usa
Total doses given 394,690,283
People fully vaccinated 185,143,698
% of population 56.2%
People given at least one dose 214,870,696
% of population 65.2%


Australia
Total doses given 28,630,736
People fully vaccinated 11,688,570
% of population 45.5%
People given at least one dose 16,942,166
% of population 66%

[R650R]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/126611304/covid19-nz-singapore-the-country-that-decided-to-let-covid-in

Nice to see a main stream news “fact checked” article that includes many pertinent points I’ve made in previous posts.
Quite a lengthy read but a good indication of future issues.

[husaberg]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/126611304/covid19-nz-singapore-the-country-that-decided-to-let-covid-in

Nice to see a main stream news “fact checked” article that includes many pertinent points I’ve made in previous posts.
Quite a lengthy read but a good indication of future issues.

No the majority of the content or the ravings of your previous posts are not mentioned in the article.
the only thing that tallies with what you post is the bit in the article where its says about the kooks and trolls spreading misinformation.


The noun Pandemic is not mentioned in that post, does one not understand grammar.
Every disease is a Pandemic in the modern world as they all spread “across the country or roundvthe world”.
1600 people sick in a country of 5 million is no crisis worth destroying jobs and lives for.


Well well well, our journey into communist hell continues.

There has only been 1650 alleged cases (out of 700,000 tests!!!!) of the virus, but what has spread faster has been submission to communist control.
Nearly 2 million have downloaded the Covid app so you can be sent to a govt “ health” camp to catch the virus if you didnt already have it.

But yay 3 million kiwis have said no to turning their phone into govt spy device.

Tommorow is D-day, public transport will be the barometer of how many of us have rolled belly up to mask wearing.
Hopefully most will say screw this shit and drive their cars to work.

You don’t have to wear a mask if it affects your physical or mental health and you do NOT need to present documents to prove this.

Out and about it’s refreshing to see nearly No one scanning the qr code thingy.

It’s quite clear now as the mountain of contradictions grow that it’s not about stopping the “virus”..


Masks are for destroying social interaction and communication with strangers. You know those moments in life when some shitbag is bashing his missus and enough of you make visual contact to know you’ve got each other back and intervene.
But with masks there will never be any Flight 93 “lets roll” moments of bravery, you’ll never know if your fellow citizen is a Karen or Stasi as you reluctantly board the blacked out train carriage...
A cop will never see your friendly smile, never know you like them and not let you off that minor stop sign indescretion...


Spare a thought for the unfortunate households this Xmas....

The households where Karen’s live.....

Instead of milk and cookies they will leave hand sanitiser and toilet paper out for Santa....

But he won’t be here Xmas nite Jonny, he has to stay in quarantine for two weeks first...

I can’t belueve comrade afdrn has t used this.... kids are very observant, how come Santa has freedom of travel?


The media are tripping over themselves trying to solve the mystery of why Africans aren't dying from covid as badly as the west.
Africans routinely take a cheap safe anti malaria drug invented in n 1960's called hydroxychloroquine....
Scooby Doo would solve that puzzle faster



So many vids about the Biden regime now investigating the “ outrageous” wuhan lab conspiracy its hard to choose which one to post ����������


Your odds of dying from Covid in NZ is about the same as winning Powerball....
People dream of winning powerball, actively visit known powerball superspreader hot zones twice a week in hope of winning...

Meanwhile about 6 times as many people die in drink drive car crashes.
We even have mass random surveillance testing for that too, typically about 1.5-2% are ‘ infected’ with the influence of alcohol.....
Would we tolerate say a 24hr lockdown every time you bought a beer at bar?
Or after your night at the bar you don’t leave through the front door, a govt agent escorts you to a ‘quarantine ‘ facility which you can’t leave for 24 hrs.
Just imagine that, we would ABSOLUTELY save 150 lives a year
The govt will NEVER do that so why all this crap with the virus where the potential victim has a 93% chance of not even needing hospital treatment...


As of Dec 4 2020

1,298,455 Total tests

2219 positive test results

139 (estimated based on 6.3% in previous data of 1600/80 approx) Hospitalised

25 dead

WHY is it SO HARD to find the data on how many people in NZ NEEDED hospital treatment for this.
This number has to be actively suppressed as ALL the other data comes up very EASY in searches.
The answer is so people don’t ask WHY are we scared.
Can you imagine a Pandemic being declared of the PM said oh by the way 93% of you that actually manage to contract the virus won’t need to go to hospital just stay home and rest.
Nothing else matters the maths tells the story, especially post lockdown any new cases should have spread massively as everyone suddenly enjoyed a watered down form of freedom.
And just think of all those Asymptomatic cases in the 3,800,000 people that have NOT been tested...
There should be another 6600 odd positive cases, another 400 extra in hospital and another 75 people dead, where are they????


Well it seems the MORE deadly and MORE contagious delta variant failed to deliver... just think about that, the infected person came on a flight where people would have taken masks off at times to eat and drink and all shared the same inflight tier facilities. THEN they sauntered all over a MAJOR metropolitan area and thefe was no outbreak.
Guess that’s why an ever nastier version lambda? Starts with L has just been “ discovered”....

Oh but we’ve locked down so quick, yes but not before the exposure events and not before all those exposed on weekends away returned to provincial centres.

One has to wonder if the new respiratory infection in young kids is a result of the sterility of lockdown life not letting there immune systems learn properly in early development months as the age band is very low.

[jasonu]

Looks like NZ's biggest issue is gang whores running up and down the country spreading the clap and chinese plague and all the while the tooth fairy totally defends the gangs. What a joke.

[husaberg]

Looks like NZ's biggest issue is gang whores running up and down the country spreading the clap and chinese plague and all the while the tooth fairy totally defends the gangs. What a joke.

You must find your own countries situation absolutely hilarious then.
unless of corse you don't quite understand what an international joke the USA covid response was
Covid deaths in NZ vs the USA
27 vs 700,000 deaths
or to make it population based nz deaths 5 per million Vs 2,159 per million of the population for the USA.
GO Meriica you really lead the world.


https://youtu.be/Q5BZ09iNdvo

[R650R]

Looks like NZ's biggest issue is gang whores running up and down the country spreading the clap and chinese plague and all the while the tooth fairy totally defends the gangs. What a joke.

The national media surviving on state welfare also now routinely reports serious criminal violence as “ disorder”....
Disorder is youths being loud in street or silly drunkness in public etc to most people...

Come visit nice “safe” nz

[caseye]

The national media surviving on state welfare also now routinely reports serious criminal violence as “ disorder”....
Disorder is youths being loud in street or silly drunkness in public etc to most people...

Come visit nice “safe” nz

No, now it's acceptable to shoot at familes in their cars and get your 1 year (Impressive!, not really) Sentence reduced on appeal to 18 months Home Detention.
Didn't thjey tell us no violent crime would ever make it to home D?
Anyhow, our home grown thugs have been given a clear mandate, do what you want it's ok the rest of NZ will be KIND to you.:bleh::bleh:

[jasonu]

The national media surviving on state welfare also now routinely reports serious criminal violence as “ disorder”....
Disorder is youths being loud in street or silly drunkness in public etc to most people...

Come visit nice “safe” nz

Yep. NZ hasn't been safe for years.

[husaberg]

Yep. NZ hasn't been safe for years.

Compared to where

STAT New Zealand VS United States
Crime levels
26% more than New Zealand

Murder rate 1.3 VS 5

Murders with firearms per million
13 times more than New Zealand

Rape rate
6% more than New Zealand

Total crimes
28 times more than New Zealand

Violent crime > Gun crime
4 times more than New Zealand

Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate
5 times more than New Zealand

Violent crime > Murder rate
333 times more than New Zealand

Violent crime > Murder rate per million people
5 times more than New Zealand

Violent crime > Rapes
75 times more than New Zealand

Violent crime > Rapes per million people
6% more than New Zealand

Merica

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ad-mass-shootings-comp-copy.jpg?strip=all&quality=100&w=1200&h=800&crop=1

[nerrrd]

Was able to bring my second shot forward three weeks so I'm happily double-vaxxed as of today. Was a steady flow of people at the Vaccination Centre, which was great to see.

Hopefully things won't go downhill too quickly and those on the front lines can cope.

[Blackbird]

I was out on a coaching ride yesterday and finished up at the Te Poi pub near Matamata for lunch. Most of the clientele were certain V twin riders and there was eff-all mask-wearing or social distancing there :no:

[R650R]

I was out on a coaching ride yesterday and finished up at the Te Poi pub near Matamata for lunch. Most of the clientele were certain V twin riders and there was eff-all mask-wearing or social distancing there :no:

It appears same at all establishments by general observation. No ones going to be putting it back on in between sips, it’s designed to fail.
Btw the proper social distance for aerosolised virus is 15 feet. The CDC wanted 10 feet but knew it would be too hard for most people to judge so that’s how six feet came about.
What cracks me up is people who drop their mask down so it’s resting under chin(with obvious intent to re wear it soon), contaminating itself with an area that’s been collecting particles....

[Stylo]

It appears same at all establishments by general observation. No ones going to be putting it back on in between sips, it’s designed to fail.
Btw the proper social distance for aerosolised virus is 15 feet. The CDC wanted 10 feet but knew it would be too hard for most people to judge so that’s how six feet came about.
What cracks me up is people who drop their mask down so it’s resting under chin(with obvious intent to re wear it soon), contaminating itself with an area that’s been collecting particles....

Im interested in how many of the Kiwi biker forum here have been vaccinated. And, if not, why not.

[caseye]

Im interested in how many of the Kiwi biker forum here have been vaccinated. And, if not, why not.

Houehold of 3 with extended family of 4 and all of our known friends all double Jabbied!
Two of the 4 work together alongside a young bloke who's grand parents are vaxxed, but his ma School Teacher) and Pa (Internationally accredited electrician) ain't. He is Not yet Vaxed, those 2 are asking why they should have to work alongside him, their collective work and familiiy(at least 8-10 babys and children) bubbles involve 30 odd, people, all of whom he could affect.
Vaxed because, underlying health issues, because it stops us getting dead and might save some anti vxxer dying, win win really.

2 Jabs a 72 hr test for travel and unlimited access to our ordinarily boring lives, for us.
Nothing for anti's or un vaxed until they see sense and get it done.:lol::lol:

[Stylo]

Houehold of 3 with extended family of 4 and all of our known friends all double Jabbied!
Two of the 4 work together alongside a young bloke who's grand parents are vaxxed, but his ma School Teacher) and Pa (Internationally accredited electrician) ain't. He is Not yet Vaxed, those 2 are asking why they should have to work alongside him, their collective work and familiiy(at least 8-10 babys and children) bubbles involve 30 odd, people, all of whom he could affect.
Vaxed because, underlying health issues, because it stops us getting dead and might save some anti vxxer dying, win win really.

2 Jabs a 72 hr test for travel and unlimited access to our ordinarily boring lives, for us.
Nothing for anti's or un vaxed until they see sense and get it done.:lol::lol:

Nice work mate . We're all double jabbed too. Only way to go...

lLke you, I'm struggling with the people who won't get the vaccination. I'm fearful of these guys now. Just saying.

[caspernz]

Im interested in how many of the Kiwi biker forum here have been vaccinated. And, if not, why not.

Both my wife and myself got both jabs done as soon as possible.

The logic used by anti vaxxers baffles me. Most of them look relatively intelligent, until they open their mouth that is :innocent::shutup:

[pete376403]

Both my wife and myself got both jabs done as soon as possible.

The logic used by anti vaxxers baffles me. Most of them look relatively intelligent, until they open their mouth that is :innocent::shutup:
both wife and I have had two shots.No way are we going to miss the opportunity to live a little longer,

[neels]

Nice work mate . We're all double jabbed too. Only way to go...

lLke you, I'm struggling with the people who won't get the vaccination. I'm fearful of these guys now. Just saying.
To be fair, they should be fearful of you.

My understanding is that vaccinated people can still catch covid, they just hopefully won't get seriously ill/die, but they can still pass it on to others.....

[mashman]

It's about a 50/50 of my circle that are jabbed. Some of us got together the other night and played poker. To be fair I wondered why a couple of us had to double mask, shove a cork up our arses, and play from inside zorb balls whilst breathing through tubes that ran out of the windows.

Ok, that's a lie. We each know who is and who isn't jabbed and carried on as if it didn't matter, coz we realise that it actually doesn't. To be fair though, we also each know that transmission isn't restricted to the non-jabbed. Some have had the jab to help protect themselves, with others getting it simply to have access to the freedoms to come. No anti-vaxxers at the table with all adults and kids of the adults vaccinated to date (some kids haven't had Gardasil though)... just relatively well adjusted human beings having a fucking good laugh without the need to spend the night lecturing each other on the virtues of our choices in life and just which of us poses the greatest threat to society given that each individual offers more than enough of a cogent argument on the subject to keep us from needing to draw such stupid lines.

[pritch]

The logic used by anti vaxxers baffles me. Most of them look relatively intelligent, until they open their mouth that is :innocent::shutup:

Logic? It's not logic, it's misinformation. They aren't all stupid, but they definitely lack critical thinking skills. They've read a lot of bullshit and sucked it in enthusiastically without actually seriously considering it.

Similarly, yesterday I heard a comment about people who work in Silicon Valley. They are generally very intelligent, but 'wisdom' can be almost entirely lacking. Their knowledge of what they are working on may be exemplary, but their understanding of its likely effects on the world tends to be exceedingly limited.

[Berries]

I'm telling people I am not having the jab just because it is fucking funny watching their reaction and listening to them dribble on.

[F5 Dave]

Really? Is that entertainment for you?

You should get a more interesting life.

Tried a hobby?

[george formby]

Noticed a covid thing on the gram today telling people in Northland to get tested immediately if they have symptoms. No brainer IMHO.

The comments have me in despair.

"Don't get tested, too many false positives". I corrected the spelling.

"Give me a $20 KFC voucher and I will get tested, hook me up Cindy".

"No test, no case's. Wake up".

I suggest the gummint mandate that those who are stirring shit go to the back of the queue for a hospital bed if they catch it.

Grrrrr. Locked down til Monday now.

[MarkH]

I'm telling people I am not having the jab just because it is fucking funny watching their reaction and listening to them dribble on.

I'd rather get my enjoyment from riding motorcycles than by being a jerk about a serious disease that is causing so many problems (including from the lockdowns and closed borders).

[caspernz]

Logic? It's not logic, it's misinformation. They aren't all stupid, but they definitely lack critical thinking skills. They've read a lot of bullshit and sucked it in enthusiastically without actually seriously considering it.

Similarly, yesterday I heard a comment about people who work in Silicon Valley. They are generally very intelligent, but 'wisdom' can be almost entirely lacking. Their knowledge of what they are working on may be exemplary, but their understanding of its likely effects on the world tends to be exceedingly limited.

Of course, it's a lack of independent critical thinking, which has its roots in intelligence in my view. There's an overload of info, good and bad, but one should be able to make an assessment after careful consideration.

One of the more enthusiastic anti-vaxxers doesn't want her sister and kids (all of them vaccinated) around, for fear of catching something from them after they've been jabbed. Something about vaccine shedding...
No point even starting the conversation to set such a misguided soul straight :confused::laugh::eek::rolleyes:

[F5 Dave]

Anyone who mentions 'The Elite' or DNA altering should be set afloat on the high seas in leaky dingy for being stupid and damaging to public health.

[pritch]

One of the more enthusiastic anti-vaxxers doesn't want her sister and kids (all of them vaccinated) around, for fear of catching something from them after they've been jabbed. Something about vaccine shedding...


I read a sad story about virus shedding. A woman drove eleven hours across the US to deliver a present to her daughters. When she arrived they asked if she had been vaccinated. When she replied that she had, they wouldn't let her in the house. She would shed the virus and make them infertile.

Off she went to start her eleven hour drive home. She didn't say if she left the present or took it home with her.




This is more intelligent:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/oct/12/living-with-covid-is-not-an-option-in-new-zealand-we-need-near-universal-vaccination

[F5 Dave]

Eugenics is a evil thing.

Sometimes.

[husaberg]

"Don't get tested, too many false positives". I corrected the spelling.

".
A lot of people thing test are 100 percent acurate but biological disease diagnosis life is not so simple.
Sensitivity and specificity are traded off you can have a nearly 100 specific test (ie nearly no false positives) but when you do this no miss infected cases
so in the real world you trade specificity for sensitivity as a million times more harm is done missing infected cases.

[jellywrestler]

I read a sad story about virus shedding. A woman drove eleven hours across the US to deliver a present to her daughters.
that's about six miles in some of their traffic.

[caspernz]

I read a sad story about virus shedding. A woman drove eleven hours across the US to deliver a present to her daughters. When she arrived they asked if she had been vaccinated. When she replied that she had, they wouldn't let her in the house. She would shed the virus and make them infertile.

Off she went to start her eleven hour drive home. She didn't say if she left the present or took it home with her.




This is more intelligent:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/oct/12/living-with-covid-is-not-an-option-in-new-zealand-we-need-near-universal-vaccination

Hope she took the present back with her after that :facepalm::shit::blink::shutup:

[Viking01]

Nice concise information. Might be of interest to a few:

https://www.immune.org.nz/diseases/covid-19

[mashman]

Well the masses will be happy to know that the FDA have approved the Pfizer, Moderna and J&J boosters for the experimental jabs that didn't quite do what was expected the first time around. Gooooooooooo guinea pigs..........

[husaberg]

Well the masses will be happy to know that the FDA have approved the Pfizer, Moderna and J&J boosters for the experimental jabs that didn't quite do what was expected the first time around. Gooooooooooo guinea pigs..........

Do you realise that the vaccines were developed for the original virus, not its subsequent variants
Sometimes mashy it's like you have no actual scientific or medical or practical knowledge at all So maybe before you comment of such factors you might consider that your opinion is rather lacking in actual merit.

take the flu vaccines for instance

CDC conducts studies each year to determine how well influenza (flu) vaccines protect against flu. While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to those used to make flu vaccines. In general, current flu vaccines tend to work better against influenza B and influenza A(H1N1) viruses and offer lower protection against influenza A(H3N2) viruses


What are factors that influence how well flu vaccines work?
How well flu vaccines work (or their ability to protect against a certain outcome) can vary from season to season. Protection can vary depending on who is being vaccinated. At least two factors play an important role in determining the likelihood that vaccination will protect a person from flu illness: 1) characteristics of the person being vaccinated (such as their age and health), and 2) how well the vaccines “match” the flu viruses spreading in the community. When flu vaccines are not well matched to one or more circulating influenza viruses, it is possible that vaccination may provide little or no protection from illness caused by those viruses, but still provide protection against other flu viruses that circulate during the season. When there is a good match between flu vaccines and circulating viruses, vaccination provides substantial benefits by preventing flu illness and complications. .

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/images/vaccines-work/2021-VE-graph_1.pnghttps://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/sites/default/files/u490/Flu%20vaccine%20effectiveness%2020%3A21%202.png
https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41591-018-0340-z/MediaObjects/41591_2018_340_Fig1_HTML.png?as=webp

[F5 Dave]

He is wilfully Stupid. Rather try to argue and think he is smart, and ironically prove he is not.

[mashman]

"No job no jab. I did Nazi that one coming".

[pete376403]

Photo of people lining up for the polio vaccine in the 60's. They probably didn't know what was in it either, but preferred their chances with the unknown rather than the known probability of ending up in an iron lung

[mashman]

Photo of people lining up for the polio vaccine in the 60's. They probably didn't know what was in it either, but preferred their chances with the unknown rather than the known probability of ending up in an iron lung

And fair enough to all those who stumped up to take their chances that way. T'would seem that a 99.5-7% chance of surviving of the current beast is enough for some, yet an intolerable risk to society in general for reasons that are yet to make any sense to certain medical professionals around the world who are literally curing people of covid using multi-drug therapies instead of letting people die whilst waiting for the vaccine of the century.

Sometimes there is no alternative according to science. Sometimes there is no alternative according to politics. The 60's saw the former being the case. The latter most definitely seems to sum up todays situation.

[george formby]

Have the multi drug cures mentioned above been clinically tested and vetted for safety prior to being garnished with a cherry and small paper umbrella?

[caspernz]

I've been double vaccinated. For the sake of me and my workmates. And my family. And the country . You would have to be stupid not to be.

Same, got the same thoughts on why.

Apparently we can't be too direct persuading anti-vaxxers to see the light.

[mashman]

Have the multi drug cures mentioned above been clinically tested and vetted for safety prior to being garnished with a cherry and small paper umbrella?

Yes. Tens of thousands of lives have been saved using multi-drug therapies. When an Ozzy MP and a Multi-Drug therapy doctor from california compared notes relatively recently, Oz had 7000 cases, 450ish hospitalisation and 100+ deaths. The Doc from cali has treated 6000 covid cases with his multi-drug therapy. 4 required a visit to hospital and 0 died. Not hard to track. That Doc has been doing this since Oct 2020. Mucculough back in June/July 2020 enough so to produce an as yet to be peer reviewed paper. I'm not sure how many the other 500, at least, doctors have saved, but they're all still practicing given their success ratio is somewhat kick ass and them using nothing but their medical training to apply drugs appropriately. There are noises being made regarding Italy's successful use of HCQ (devil drug) used in multi-drug therapies is working wonders for keeping people away from hospitals and death, but as yet I'm yet to find any concrete numbers on that. And so on.

So yes. Very much yes. Done and dusted yes. Why still unrecognised? Your guess is as good as mine.

[mashman]

Are you on drugs ? You make zero sense. Shot gun statements never do. Come back when you have something to actually say. T'would seem that you might have a sherry tonight my old friend, No ?

I've been double vaccinated. For the sake of me and my workmates. And my family. And the country . You would have to be stupid not to be.

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of Jacindas voice.

[F5 Dave]

Not sure what that was about but this chick is awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpJAmlnBxoA

[husaberg]

Yes. Tens of thousands of lives have been saved using multi-drug therapies. When an Ozzy MP and a Multi-Drug therapy doctor from california compared notes relatively recently, Oz had 7000 cases, 450ish hospitalisation and 100+ deaths. The Doc from cali has treated 6000 covid cases with his multi-drug therapy. 4 required a visit to hospital and 0 died. Not hard to track. That Doc has been doing this since Oct 2020. Mucculough back in June/July 2020 enough so to produce an as yet to be peer reviewed paper. I'm not sure how many the other 500, at least, doctors have saved, but they're all still practicing given their success ratio is somewhat kick ass and them using nothing but their medical training to apply drugs appropriately. There are noises being made regarding Italy's successful use of HCQ (devil drug) used in multi-drug therapies is working wonders for keeping people away from hospitals and death, but as yet I'm yet to find any concrete numbers on that. And so on.

So yes. Very much yes. Done and dusted yes. Why still unrecognised? Your guess is as good as mine.

Is the that the Cali doctor from a one doctor hole in wall clinic next to a Costco and Walmart and that uses drugs and vitamins that don't work and claims a cure due to testing the people for covid himself....
here is some news, his cures are not a cure, that's why he does his own trials.
https://www.kusi.com/el-centro-doctor-used-hydroxychloroquine-as-treatment-for-covid-19-patients/
note if the drug is they cure for covid how come Trump got covid. note if the drug is the cure for covid how come all the other trials show no actual results in its favour unless he does them himself.
'there is a reason his self publish "peer reviews" keep getting taken off the internet its because they are pure fiction.
nor are these guys
https://time.com/5823921/california-doctor-cure-covid-19-mail-fraud/
or this dude
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-homeopathic-doctor-charged-vaccine-cards-fraud-20210715-ofeubqufarh7bcqx725smuawda-story.html
or this one
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/in-viral-video-doctor-falsely-touts-hydroxychloroquine-as-covid-19-cure/

[jasonu]

I read a sad story about virus shedding. A woman drove eleven hours across the US to deliver a present to her daughters. When she arrived they asked if she had been vaccinated. When she replied that she had, they wouldn't let her in the house. She would shed the virus and make them infertile.

Off she went to start her eleven hour drive home. She didn't say if she left the present or took it home with her.




This is more intelligent:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/oct/12/living-with-covid-is-not-an-option-in-new-zealand-we-need-near-universal-vaccination

Got a link to that?

[R650R]

Kinda agree with the indigenous population on this one

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126710484/mounting-opposition-to-governments-proposed-new-traffic-light-system-for-covid19-restrictions

Really it just a rebranding of lockdown and one expert even wants six levels but forgets their talking three colours????

[Stylo]

Got a link to that?


I'd like to see it too.

[R650R]

I'd like to see it too.

And the silence is deafening, was prob on www.lwnj.com

“Today unnamed sources reported on a popular but unknown twitter feed that an unnamed woman of unknown gender has driven twelve hours to deliver presents before returning home to an unknown city.
Speaking on condition of anonymity an unnamed sherrifs deputy said an alledged disorder event broke out at an unknown address with unknown participants leading police to abandon investigation into the unknown events at the unknown location.

[R650R]

Interesting when this story broke earlier today there was no locations of interest in HB.
This story is no longer on front page but clicking link in browser history see it edited to include new location... very interesting given two close contacts just had their negative DAY SIX tests.....

Labour weekend is a four day holiday in bay, HB show day Friday and lab day Monday.... could be a super spreader weekend... thousand six of hb people will have already left tonight on their holidays....

Thankfully that’s new Kmart store has crap service and crap layout so should limit spread.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/covid-19-delta-outbreak-traveller-to-hawkes-bay-tests-positive-on-return-to-waikato-likely-infectious-while-travelling/

[R650R]

In true Orwellian doublespeak new freedoms are being announced by taking away freedoms....
You will be able to visit bars caves and events only by showing your Certificate Of Vaccine IDentifucation....
There will be no more lockdowns EXCEPT when THEY decide its needed in localised areas....
I really feel sorry for the elderly going about their daily business who are not tech savvy and prone to forgetfulness or leaving things st home etc....
None of this should apply to anyone over 65, that may seem low but without rise of mental illnesses and early onset dementia etc itÂ’s only fair thing to do.
Once again this govt proves me right I told you at the start this would come about. Jacinda will smile like a crocodile and say we wonÂ’t force you to be vaccinated but in reality you wonÂ’t lead anything of a normal life without it.
Btw this whole traffic light system is just to obscure our memory of the hysterical smash level 4 lockdown for just one case a couple months ago, just like how govt depts are rebranded every couple years to cover up failed policies.... ThereÂ’s no valid reason why it couldnÂ’t just be called 1.5 2 and 3.8. ItÂ’s either a lockdown or not.
IÂ’m forecasting when itÂ’s in place the force fed alert system on your phone will flash the appropriate colour on your screen, cue fluff news photo op whole lot of teens in bar holding up phones glowing green. We will no longer be the team of five million but team green... ushering in the next chapter which will be climate lockdowns. Jacinda will appear in tv in several months time announcing an emergency level four combustion lockdown as particle levels exceed WHO standards. Only electric cars and public transport will be allowed for one week til skies clear... you read it hear first...

[F5 Dave]

Yeah yeah, the virus isn't real and if it was it could be cured drinking tonic water so this is all about communism and the devil.

Yawn.

[MarkH]

In true Orwellian doublespeak new freedoms are being announced by taking away freedoms....

Orwellian? Go on, just declare it is like Nazi Germany - you know, where those evil Nazis gathered up Jewish people and made them get vaccinated or they would not be able to go to the pub . . . or something like that.

Of course it might be that no one in any country in the world has unlimited freedoms, because there will always need to be rules for people to be able to live in societies. I can't ride a motorcycle without a helmet and the relevant license, even though wearing a helmet or not has no real impact on anyone else. People not being vaccinated is different because it does affect other people. It's a pity that selfish cunts can't understand that being a part of society comes with things like civic duty and that putting other peoples lives at risk because you read some stupid anti-scientific BS, well, that's just being an arsehole.

In motorcycle related news: reading about the new traffic light system that aunty Cindy is bringing in - there will be no motorcycle rallies for you anti-vaxxer jerk-offs! It looks pretty clear that outdoor gatherings of over 100 people will only be allowed with vaccination certificates!

[pete376403]

In motorcycle related news: reading about the new traffic light system that aunty Cindy is bringing in - there will be no motorcycle rallies for you anti-vaxxer jerk-offs! It looks pretty clear that outdoor gatherings of over 100 people will only be allowed with vaccination certificates!

When I got the first vax I was given a card that listed the date / time / preparation code etc. When I went back for the second the card wasn't completed, told it was not necessary. So how am I going to prove I'm doubled vaxxed if I want to go to the bike rallies?

[Dadpole]

When I got the first vax I was given a card that listed the date / time / preparation code etc. When I went back for the second the card wasn't completed, told it was not necessary. So how am I going to prove I'm doubled vaxxed if I want to go to the bike rallies?

Going by the postings of R650R, all you need to do is swear fealty to Jacinda and you will be given the superchip to allow you to go outside.

[F5 Dave]

It's recorded electronically would you believe? New fangled technology.

You will then be able to load an app and pull in a cert just like a boarding pass, or just print it off.

Should be available mid December I believe. Have to get it right, in the US there is a thriving black market for complete cunts who want their freedom and don't care who dies as a result.

[F5 Dave]

Orwellian? Go on, just declare it is like Nazi Germany - you know, where those evil Nazis gathered up Jewish people and made them get vaccinated or they would not be able to go to the pub . . . or something like that.

Of course it might be that no one in any country in the world has unlimited freedoms, because there will always need to be rules for people to be able to live in societies. I can't ride a motorcycle without a helmet and the relevant license, even though wearing a helmet or not has no real impact on anyone else. People not being vaccinated is different because it does affect other people. It's a pity that selfish cunts can't understand that being a part of society comes with things like civic duty and that putting other peoples lives at risk because you read some stupid anti-scientific BS, well, that's just being an arsehole.

In motorcycle related news: reading about the new traffic light system that aunty Cindy is bringing in - there will be no motorcycle rallies for you anti-vaxxer jerk-offs! It looks pretty clear that outdoor gatherings of over 100 people will only be allowed with vaccination certificates!

Those damm commie nazis again!

Trail ride events possible.

Sitting in your bedroom with a towel over your head muttering incomprehensibly about sheepile and Satan's plans possible for R650Arrr.

Oh how we don't see the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse and their amway brochures. Oh how they will suffer. But I won't. I have my towel. Bhahahaha. . . Sniffle.

[husaberg]

Going by the postings of R650R, all you need to do is swear fealty to Jacinda and you will be given the superchip to allow you to go outside.

The plan was you voted National at the last election, they were to be given a chip to control their minds. But it turned out that there were so few people and these national voter were so limited it brain activity it proved easier just to ban Alex Jones and get them to vote ACT instead.

[R650R]

Orwellian? Go on, just declare it is like Nazi Germany - you know, where those evil Nazis gathered up Jewish people and made them get vaccinated or they would not be able to go to the pub . . . or something like that.

Of course it might be that no one in any country in the world has unlimited freedoms, because there will always need to be rules for people to be able to live in societies. I can't ride a motorcycle without a helmet and the relevant license, even though wearing a helmet or not has no real impact on anyone else. People not being vaccinated is different because it does affect other people. It's a pity that selfish cunts can't understand that being a part of society comes with things like civic duty and that putting other peoples lives at risk because you read some stupid anti-scientific BS, well, that's just being an arsehole.

In motorcycle related news: reading about the new traffic light system that aunty Cindy is bringing in - there will be no motorcycle rallies for you anti-vaxxer jerk-offs! It looks pretty clear that outdoor gatherings of over 100 people will only be allowed with vaccination certificates!

I’m not an anti vaxxer. I’m anti being lied to by our government. They are saying we get freedoms but all they done is change the label on the control mechanisms.
What’s interesting here is certain gatherings still be allowed, you’ll have to be careful which cafe Sc you stop at in say coromandel if your worried about that stuff.

One must be careful bashing those who aren’t vaccinated or you could be labelled racist... oh the joyful trappings of identity politics....

[R650R]

When I got the first vax I was given a card that listed the date / time / preparation code etc. When I went back for the second the card wasn't completed, told it was not necessary. So how am I going to prove I'm doubled vaxxed if I want to go to the bike rallies?

You can go online through ministry of health and get a paper cert through their records if you want to travel and eventually prob get the electronic version too. I’d be chasing that up if I was you.
Likely events like that you will have to pre register and the event organiser will submit a list to authorities. As checking at the gate just will not be feasible as you could borrow someone’s card etc. you’d need to be showing photo I’d as well etc.

[husaberg]

I’m not an anti vaxxer. . oh the joyful trappings of identity politics....



Hard to believe that from the ravings of your previous posts that you are not an antivaxer
Do you just enjoy spreading the same misinformation as the antivaxers?


The noun Pandemic is not mentioned in that post, does one not understand grammar.
Every disease is a Pandemic in the modern world as they all spread “across the country or roundvthe world”.
1600 people sick in a country of 5 million is no crisis worth destroying jobs and lives for.


Well well well, our journey into communist hell continues.

There has only been 1650 alleged cases (out of 700,000 tests!!!!) of the virus, but what has spread faster has been submission to communist control.
Nearly 2 million have downloaded the Covid app so you can be sent to a govt “ health” camp to catch the virus if you didnt already have it.

But yay 3 million kiwis have said no to turning their phone into govt spy device.

Tommorow is D-day, public transport will be the barometer of how many of us have rolled belly up to mask wearing.
Hopefully most will say screw this shit and drive their cars to work.

You don’t have to wear a mask if it affects your physical or mental health and you do NOT need to present documents to prove this.

Out and about it’s refreshing to see nearly No one scanning the qr code thingy.

It’s quite clear now as the mountain of contradictions grow that it’s not about stopping the “virus”..


Masks are for destroying social interaction and communication with strangers. You know those moments in life when some shitbag is bashing his missus and enough of you make visual contact to know you’ve got each other back and intervene.
But with masks there will never be any Flight 93 “lets roll” moments of bravery, you’ll never know if your fellow citizen is a Karen or Stasi as you reluctantly board the blacked out train carriage...
A cop will never see your friendly smile, never know you like them and not let you off that minor stop sign indescretion...


Spare a thought for the unfortunate households this Xmas....

The households where Karen’s live.....

Instead of milk and cookies they will leave hand sanitiser and toilet paper out for Santa....

But he won’t be here Xmas nite Jonny, he has to stay in quarantine for two weeks first...

I can’t belueve comrade afdrn has t used this.... kids are very observant, how come Santa has freedom of travel?


The media are tripping over themselves trying to solve the mystery of why Africans aren't dying from covid as badly as the west.
Africans routinely take a cheap safe anti malaria drug invented in n 1960's called hydroxychloroquine....
Scooby Doo would solve that puzzle faster



So many vids about the Biden regime now investigating the “ outrageous” wuhan lab conspiracy its hard to choose which one to post ����������


Your odds of dying from Covid in NZ is about the same as winning Powerball....
People dream of winning powerball, actively visit known powerball superspreader hot zones twice a week in hope of winning...

Meanwhile about 6 times as many people die in drink drive car crashes.
We even have mass random surveillance testing for that too, typically about 1.5-2% are ‘ infected’ with the influence of alcohol.....
Would we tolerate say a 24hr lockdown every time you bought a beer at bar?
Or after your night at the bar you don’t leave through the front door, a govt agent escorts you to a ‘quarantine ‘ facility which you can’t leave for 24 hrs.
Just imagine that, we would ABSOLUTELY save 150 lives a year
The govt will NEVER do that so why all this crap with the virus where the potential victim has a 93% chance of not even needing hospital treatment...


As of Dec 4 2020

1,298,455 Total tests

2219 positive test results

139 (estimated based on 6.3% in previous data of 1600/80 approx) Hospitalised

25 dead

WHY is it SO HARD to find the data on how many people in NZ NEEDED hospital treatment for this.
This number has to be actively suppressed as ALL the other data comes up very EASY in searches.
The answer is so people don’t ask WHY are we scared.
Can you imagine a Pandemic being declared of the PM said oh by the way 93% of you that actually manage to contract the virus won’t need to go to hospital just stay home and rest.
Nothing else matters the maths tells the story, especially post lockdown any new cases should have spread massively as everyone suddenly enjoyed a watered down form of freedom.
And just think of all those Asymptomatic cases in the 3,800,000 people that have NOT been tested...
There should be another 6600 odd positive cases, another 400 extra in hospital and another 75 people dead, where are they????


Well it seems the MORE deadly and MORE contagious delta variant failed to deliver... just think about that, the infected person came on a flight where people would have taken masks off at times to eat and drink and all shared the same inflight tier facilities. THEN they sauntered all over a MAJOR metropolitan area and thefe was no outbreak.
Guess that’s why an ever nastier version lambda? Starts with L has just been “ discovered”....

Oh but we’ve locked down so quick, yes but not before the exposure events and not before all those exposed on weekends away returned to provincial centres.

One has to wonder if the new respiratory infection in young kids is a result of the sterility of lockdown life not letting there immune systems learn properly in early development months as the age band is very low.

.........................................

[pete376403]

Maybe the lockdown isn't so bad after all, when looking at the alternatives?
"A total of 18 people died from Covid in Singapore on Wednesday, a grim new record for the tiny nation of just 5.6 million.

That same day, 3862 new cases were recorded, followed by 2937 on Thursday."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-singapore-extends-restrictions-amid-deadly-outbreak/3AY6HR5DOF6N7M4TXIH6LWPWN4/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=nzh_fb&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR23-Rjf2ubFdps80e95UwX2g7EUHdao01265srKO4g48k3-exiC7hD-t4Y#Echobox=1634937305

[R650R]

Maybe the lockdown isn't so bad after all, when looking at the alternatives?
"A total of 18 people died from Covid in Singapore on Wednesday, a grim new record for the tiny nation of just 5.6 million.

That same day, 3862 new cases were recorded, followed by 2937 on Thursday."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-singapore-extends-restrictions-amid-deadly-outbreak/3AY6HR5DOF6N7M4TXIH6LWPWN4/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=nzh_fb&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR23-Rjf2ubFdps80e95UwX2g7EUHdao01265srKO4g48k3-exiC7hD-t4Y#Echobox=1634937305

They still have some restrictions there, apparently most of the seriously ill are unvaccinated and they have about an 85% vax rate.
Also they have higher case numbers as you can home test which picks up lot of asymptomatic cases. 98.2% of cases there have no or mild symptoms.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/126611304/covid19-nz-singapore-the-country-that-decided-to-let-covid-in

https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/details/update-on-local-covid-19-situation-(1-oct-2021)

Given our live here for concerts and festivals I expect we’ll see similar stuff here end of summer, especially as immunity wanes from the early adopters we’ll stsrt getting thevisrael situation...

Interesting they also not reporting complete case numbers, just like here I don’t think they want people doing their own maths on what’s happening...

[R650R]

This fella is about 20 years late to the party....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300437423/covid19-vaccination-certificates-raise-questions-of-privacy-and-trust

I do love the line about there's no info on how long we will have to do this. That's hilarious, this will never be over, we will be scanning forever no matter who doesn't like it or has issues. Just like how lockdown was only going to be for couple of weeks haha....

No matter what privacy laws are passed police and other agencies will still be able to access for serious crimes.

What's really going to be fun is when we get a right wing govt again(and we will everything has its cycles) with another Jenny Shipley/Ruth Richardson type combo.
Could see the unemployed being forced to scan qr codes to show evidence of looking for work, visit at least ten potential employers per day etc

[husaberg]

https://i.imgur.com/MrhOINS.jpg

[Kickaha]

I'm picking the latter

[Bonez]

Got a link to that?
It will never happen, Ever,,,,.;):msn-wink:

[R650R]

I see there’s a lot of talk about test to enter South Island, what ever spins your wheels but if they do it should be both ways, let’s not forget the southern wedding party in season one...

And poor Dave Dobbyn what has our country become doodaah dahhh slice of hell aye?

[husaberg]

Hoston. We have a problem.

he doesn't believe in the moon landing or the assassination in Texas.

[R650R]

Once again this govt proves my predictions right more MANDATORY vaccinations. TheyÂ’ve missed a freebie here though as by default theyve included high school students ( those that want job prospect at least) as many school leavers would enter retail and hospitality type jobs.
Also the line about customers have to be so should workers, well what about students vs teachers mandate?
One piss poor piecemeal move after another and they wonder why people are so hesitant and untrusting of the whole operation.
To get rates up from the start all they had to do was say hey itÂ’s free now but in future it might not be as all this is really hammering govt accounts.
We gave people a thousand dollars KiwiSaver kickstart, given the cost of icu beds surely thisftype incentive would be cost effective too....
Also they go on about itÂ’s 40% of national workforce but on lawvof averages surely about 80% of them are already vaccinated? So why the mandate to cover such a minority at this stage in proceedings?

[MarkH]

but on lawvof averages surely about 80% of them are already vaccinated? So why the mandate to cover such a minority at this stage in proceedings?

Because 80% isn't enough to bring the R number under 1.0. Other countries with ~80% vaccination have opened up and then had to bring a range of restrictions back in, the vaccination rate NEEDS to be higher. Some selfish cunts don't care, but I'm personally sick of the restrictions and many businesses are on the verge of bankruptcy - for the sake of our society we desperately need a very high vaccination rate so that we can live with this cunty virus.

[MarkH]

We gave people a thousand dollars KiwiSaver kickstart, given the cost of icu beds surely thisftype incentive would be cost effective too....

If the government gave $1000 to every person double vaxed as of the end of November, do you know how much that would cost the country? Actually it would cost way less than what the lockdown in Auckland has cost the country - a LOT less!

[MarkH]

Also the line about customers have to be so should workers, well what about students vs teachers mandate?

You do realise that a lot of students can't be vaccinated, right?
But I kinda agree that it would be great if they insisted that all >12-year-old students must be vaccinated to go to a school where they will mix with hundreds of other people.
Some universities are looking at making all students & staff be vaccinated to be allowed on campus, I also back that idea.
I think all supermarket workers should be vaccinated and that it should be mandatory, this government has already said that people that are not vaccinated will still be able to go the supermarket even when they can't go to the pub or a restaurant - seems risky to have the supermarket workers vulnerable to being infected by the anti-vax arseholes.

[TheDemonLord]

Because 80% isn't enough to bring the R number under 1.0. Other countries with ~80% vaccination have opened up and then had to bring a range of restrictions back in, the vaccination rate NEEDS to be higher. Some selfish cunts don't care, but I'm personally sick of the restrictions and many businesses are on the verge of bankruptcy - for the sake of our society we desperately need a very high vaccination rate so that we can live with this cunty virus.

So, get yourself vaccinated - then if it's as bad as everyone is making it out, then those who aren't will die off and Evolution will advance a small step.

Also as a reminder - the Vaccine does not stop you from being able to spread the Virus, so I really wish they would stop with that insinuation.

[TheDemonLord]

You do realise that a lot of students can't be vaccinated, right?
But I kinda agree that it would be great if they insisted that all >12-year-old students must be vaccinated to go to a school where they will mix with hundreds of other people.
Some universities are looking at making all students & staff be vaccinated to be allowed on campus, I also back that idea.
I think all supermarket workers should be vaccinated and that it should be mandatory, this government has already said that people that are not vaccinated will still be able to go the supermarket even when they can't go to the pub or a restaurant - seems risky to have the supermarket workers vulnerable to being infected by the anti-vax arseholes.

Have you considered that some people are not anti-vax, but they are very much anti-mandate?

This bullying, apartheid, protection racket system that is being proposed is both massively illiberal, Authoritarian and an affront to the natural rights of the individual.



But then, that's exactly what I expected a little Socialist Dictator to do after she passed 'Strong Firearm legislation'....

[MarkH]

So, get yourself vaccinated - then if it's as bad as everyone is making it out, then those who aren't will die off and Evolution will advance a small step.

Also as a reminder - the Vaccine does not stop you from being able to spread the Virus, so I really wish they would stop with that insinuation.

I'm fully vaxed, but thanks for the suggestion.
I've never said the vaccine stops a person from being able to spread the virus, BUT: a vaccinated person is MUCH less likely to contract and spread the virus than a non-vaccinated person.
Unfortunately the death rate is very low, so unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus, pass on the virus, get sick and need hospital treatment and then keep on living and being selfish idiots.

[MarkH]

Have you considered that some people are not anti-vax, but they are very much anti-mandate?

This bullying, apartheid, protection racket system that is being proposed is both massively illiberal, Authoritarian and an affront to the natural rights of the individual.


Nope. There are some anti-vax people that try to claim to be anti-mandate, but the reality is that they believe some anti-science nonsense and because of it they don't want to get vaccinated.
There is no apartheid and every single person in NZ is free to choose to not get vaccinated. There is, as always, consequences to the choices people make and those consequences might include needing to find a different job or not being able to go to a concert - but that is fine, for the health of the entire society we need to have some rules to protect the majority from the selfish.

This natural rights of the individual BS sounds like double speak for "I want to be selfish and would rather let people die than accept current medical science".
There are plenty of rules in society that mean that people are denied the freedom to do certain things, no society in the world exists with absolute freedom for people to do anything they want to.
The fact is that people being vaccinated or not does affect other people, it isn't JUST about the person being vaccinated.

[F5 Dave]

Perhaps TDL should self isolate with a lock on the outside and smear himself with covid and have a long drawn out discussion with a virus about his rights as an individual.

Be sure to be firm with it. Its probably a dirty left leaning virus and needs to be put to rights with strong arguments about your self worth and importance.

[FJRider]

So, get yourself vaccinated - then if it's as bad as everyone is making it out, then those who aren't will die off and Evolution will advance a small step.

A small step backwards in Evolution you mean. The ones with a poor immune system ... the elderly ... and those weaker one's (already struggling with various medical issues) will be lining up (if they haven't already) for the vaccines. The very ones that usually died off during the various plagues that have infected the planet at various times.



Also as a reminder - the Vaccine does not stop you from being able to spread the Virus, so I really wish they would stop with that insinuation.

Some already have got the virus and passed it on ... without actually being affected by it. With those that have been given the vaccines ... the same result is expected. I haven't heard of anybody without already having serious medical issues ... being killed by the virus after taking the vaccines. Have you ... ??

The onus is being placed on business owners to decide who enters their premises. Be it staff ... or customers. Any law changes in this regard is to give those businesses the legal power to do this. Government agencies will probably be first to adhere to the "No jab, no entry" policy. Those on a Benefit might find dealing with their local welfare agency ... even more difficult without having had the jabs ... :shifty:

[F5 Dave]

Average age of those in hospital has come down quite somewhat. I read it was 45 on Monday stuff article but apparently that was revised Tuesday to 38 (source a mate heard it on the radio so cant confirm lower number). But geez .

[pete376403]

Average age of those in hospital has come down quite somewhat. I read it was 45 on Monday stuff article but apparently that was revised Tuesday to 38 (source a mate heard it on the radio so cant confirm lower number). But geez . https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/10/covid-19-average-age-of-hospitalisations-in-nz-plummeting.html

[pete376403]

And, in other news, https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300439923/covid19-live-two-covid19-cases-notified-in-christchurch

Welcome to the rest of NZ, South Island

[TheDemonLord]

Nope. There are some anti-vax people that try to claim to be anti-mandate, but the reality is that they believe some anti-science nonsense and because of it they don't want to get vaccinated.

So, let me stop you right there. I've stated in another thread that I, myself, am Vaccinated. I am also completely opposed to any Mandates.
Ben Shapiro (prominent Right-wing talking head) also is fully vaccinated and also against Mandates.

Immediately your narrative is wrong.

You can be opposed to Mandates, whilst being pro-vaccine (a position which I have routinely upheld, not just in regards to the Covid Vaccine, but others as well)


There is no apartheid and every single person in NZ is free to choose to not get vaccinated.

Just like everyone is free to renounce their Jewish Faith ;)


There is, as always, consequences to the choices people make and those consequences might include needing to find a different job or not being able to go to a concert

"If you choose not to pay us the protection money, there might be consequences, you might need to find a different Job"


but that is fine, for the health of the entire society we need to have some rules to protect the majority from the selfish.

Thank you kindly for this statement - Why?

Do you believe the Vaccine doesn't work? After-all, if the Majority are Vaccinated - what Protection do they need? They already have protection (by your own argument), so why the need for Tyranny?

And let us remember that this is a Virus with a 98% survival rate. When you filter out old people (who also die from things like the Flu every year) and people with pre-existing medical conditions (see the comment about the Flu also) - that survival rate rises to over 99%

So I'll ask - WHY do the Majority (who are vaccinated) need protection?

To make the argument you are trying, you either have to deny the science or deny reality.


This natural rights of the individual BS sounds like double speak for "I want to be selfish and would rather let people die than accept current medical science".

It's only the philosophical underpinning upon which all of your human rights are based.
It's only the philosophical argument that ended practices such as Slavery and Torture.
It's only the Bulwark that stood opposed to the biggest genocides of the 20th Century.


There are plenty of rules in society that mean that people are denied the freedom to do certain things, no society in the world exists with absolute freedom for people to do anything they want to.

Sure, and most of those are derived from an individual's Natural Rights. Often expressed as 'your right to swing your fists in public ends where my nose begins'.

That said, yes we do have laws - but the vast majority are prescriptive 'You cannot do XYZ' as opposed to proscriptive 'You must do XYZ' and therein lies the difference.


The fact is that people being vaccinated or not does affect other people, it isn't JUST about the person being vaccinated.

That is the wrong way to frame it. You as the individual are free to vaccinate yourself (or not) to protect yourself (or not). You cannot control the actions of other people, you can only control your own actions.

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps TDL should self isolate with a lock on the outside and smear himself with covid and have a long drawn out discussion with a virus about his rights as an individual.

Be sure to be firm with it. Its probably a dirty left leaning virus and needs to be put to rights with strong arguments about your self worth and importance.

We did something similar, on the 6th of June, 1944 - and the World was a better place for it.

Freedom has a price and so does Tyranny.

Benjamin Franklin was right when he said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

If tomorrow, I would ride a Motorbike and die a horrible death, I would have done so freely making the choices that lead to that outcome. Would you like it if some moral Busybody banned you from riding your bike because you might Die?

I'd much rather pay the price and the consequences of MY freely made choices, than pay the price and the consequences for YOUR choices.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm fully vaxed, but thanks for the suggestion.
I've never said the vaccine stops a person from being able to spread the virus, BUT: a vaccinated person is MUCH less likely to contract and spread the virus than a non-vaccinated person.

Erm, the science is still out on that - last I read if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on - with that rising to nearly 70% after 3 months of the second dose.

In contrast, catching Covid and recovering gives a greater than 80% resistance to transmitting the Virus.


Unfortunately the death rate is very low, so unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus, pass on the virus, get sick and need hospital treatment and then keep on living and being selfish idiots.

If the Death Rate is low, what are you worried about?

The same could be (and is...) said of Obesity, Motorcycling, Smoking, Drinking Alcohol etc. etc. Yet, we are happy to pay our taxes to treat those people - so why the hatred?

[R650R]

I see chch is facing the “threat” of a snap lockdown over a handful of cases at a time when they been raving about how good si vax rate is....

Let’s think for a minute about airborne transmission.... how much virus particles does it take to infect another person?
Does anyone know?
Does the govt know?
How fast does your immune system work, either natural or immunised, how fast do those immune cells eat/destroy the virus?
Given how long the body takes to deal with most normal Illnesses id hazard a guess it’s not that fast....
Given all this fancy genomic tracking of who got infected where, surely by now the govt would have HARD evidence to show the UNvaccinayed spread the virus. Yes there are more of them in hospital but who did they catch it from?
That’s all they need to do is show the data instead of threatening people’s freedoms.
Remember we were told the virus can live on a petrol pump handle (despite all those benzene fumes) and last time I checked you can’t vaccine a petrol pump.

[R650R]

Erm, the science is still out on that - last I read if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on - with that rising to nearly 70% after 3 months of the second dose.

In contrast, catching Covid and recovering gives a greater than 80% resistance to transmitting the Virus.



If the Death Rate is low, what are you worried about?

The same could be (and is...) said of Obesity, Motorcycling, Smoking, Drinking Alcohol etc. etc. Yet, we are happy to pay our taxes to treat those people - so why the hatred?

Yep sadly 8 people dead on the weekend, the virus will be very jealous of the laws of physics.

The same people that would sneer at a person mask less (with exemption) in shop think nothing of jumping in car with kids at heading off on holiday.... while you KNOW there will be fatigued people coming the other way doing same nagging wife/kids/life worries etc distracting them.
Never mind than some of them will be needlessly be driving overweight utes giving them an unfair kinetic advantage in collision.....
Oh now there’s a thread topic E=MV2.... speed kills but what about the mass part of the equation seems it only matters once it’s above 48,000 kg.... why don’t we demonise car loads of fat people they have compromised their cars stopping distance.....

[pritch]

Last night I was talking to a Ngapuhi kaumatua while waiting for a Zoom meeting to commence. He was telling me that the older people in the north are getting vaccinated, but those in their 30s are more reluctant.

When COVID first appeared it was quickly apparent that it mainly affected the elderly. Many seem to think this is still the csae. The Delta version is less fussy, it affects younger people and children. Thousands of children have died in the US. As has been pointed out on KB the average age of those currently hospitalised here is 45. Hardly geriatrics.

Had an unusual experience last night, I agreed with Honi Harawira. He is anti the freedumb protestors heading north. So was my Ngapuhi friend, so am I. Fuckem.

[MarkH]

So, let me stop you right there. I've stated in another thread that I, myself, am Vaccinated. I am also completely opposed to any Mandates.
Ben Shapiro (prominent Right-wing talking head) also is fully vaccinated and also against Mandates.

Immediately your narrative is wrong.

You can be opposed to Mandates, whilst being pro-vaccine (a position which I have routinely upheld, not just in regards to the Covid Vaccine, but others as well)

OK, maybe not every single last person that opposes mandates is anti-vax, just the overwhelming majority of them.
Ben Shapiro is a huge cunt for many other reasons, just as well he isn't also an anti-vaxer.


Do you believe the Vaccine doesn't work? After-all, if the Majority are Vaccinated - what Protection do they need? They already have protection (by your own argument), so why the need for Tyranny?

And let us remember that this is a Virus with a 98% survival rate. When you filter out old people (who also die from things like the Flu every year) and people with pre-existing medical conditions (see the comment about the Flu also) - that survival rate rises to over 99%

So I'll ask - WHY do the Majority (who are vaccinated) need protection?

To make the argument you are trying, you either have to deny the science or deny reality.

Oh, dear, so much lack of understanding . . .

There are so many ways that unvaccinated people are putting the vaccinated at risk. Vaccines do work, but most are not 100% effective - some people will get sick, some will need ICU and some will even die, despite being vaccinated. Then there are the people that cannot be vaccinated and the people that are immuno-compromised. There is a thing called 'herd immunity', if you understood what that is then you would most likely be able to understand the reason why all of society benefits from having everyone that can be vaccinated, doing so. Let's not forget the people that have medical events or are hurt in accident or need to get tumours checked - in some countries those people have died due to overwhelmed health services due to huge numbers of Covid cases. The reality is that high numbers of unvaccinated people can be a direct cause of health systems being overwhelmed, leading to suffering and deaths from other unrelated things. I consider the anti-vaxxers to be selfish cunts because their decision to not vaccinate puts the lives of other people at risk, but they care more about their mis-informed ideas than the lives of others.

Whenever I come across reasoning like the bit quoted it is very helpful, it tells me that the person does not understand the topic and is arguing from a position of ignorance. Not understanding how a vaccine works, not understanding the concept of herd immunity, not understanding the benefits of mass vaccination, etc. This is a fairly common thing with anti-vaxxers and science deniers, so many fallacious arguments of various types with the resulting holes in their reasoning that are big enough to drive a bus through. When someone says "if you are vaccinated than why do you care if anyone else if vaccinated" I read that as "I don't understand the science and really don't know what I'm talking about".


Erm, the science is still out on that - last I read if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on - with that rising to nearly 70% after 3 months of the second dose.

In contrast, catching Covid and recovering gives a greater than 80% resistance to transmitting the Virus.

Well, that's different to the numbers I've read. I don't even understand what the hell it is supposed to mean when you say "if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on" - in what circumstances are you at greater than 50% chance of being a carrier? The way that is phrased makes me think it is something posted on an anti-vax website by a barely literate retard.


If the Death Rate is low, what are you worried about?


There is a lot more to consider than just the death rate. There is the hospitalisation rate, which is much higher than the death rate. Then there is the possibility of 'long Covid' which sounds like a right cunt of a thing. Perhaps the most scary is the potential for long term (possibly life-long) organ damage (heart, lungs, kidneys, brain, gonads, etc) which scientists have found cases of, even in people that only ever had mild Covid symptoms.

Personally, I'm not so worried about getting Covid now that I'm vaccinated. I'm worried about the lockdown measures crippling our society and the economy. I'm worried about the health system being overwhelmed and that leading to many more deaths. I'm worried about vulnerable people dying in part due to the decisions of the selfish people. I'm worried about families and friends kept apart by closed borders (international borders and the Auckland border). All these measures to limit the spread of the virus are needed largely because of the unvaccinated people.

I'm not in favour of making anyone get the vaccine if they don't want to, but I am in favour of incentivising people to do the right thing. I also believe that letting a bartender serve hundreds of people on a busy Friday night, without requiring that person to be vaccinated, would be borderline criminal. For the sake of protecting others there are many jobs that absolutely should be restricted to only vaccinated people. Similarly there are mass gatherings that could easily be super spreader events if not limited to only vaccinated people, it seems to me that it would be better to limit those gatherings to only vaccinated people than to outright cancel them. For example we have already had the 2020 Cold Kiwi and the 2021 Cold Kiwi cancelled, I'd rather be able to attend the Cold Kiwi while vaccinated than to have it cancelled again.

There have been cases cropping up where there are workers that don't want to get vaccinated and there are other workers that don't want to work with unvaccinated people. You can say that the first group have rights, but don't the other group have rights too?
I've visited a workplace that had a sign asking people that had cold/flu/other symptoms to not enter because a worker there was undergoing chemotherapy, I wonder how a workplace in that situation would feel about unvaccinated workers/visitors during a pandemic?

[pete376403]

So, let me stop you right there. I've stated in another thread that I, myself, am Vaccinated. I am also completely opposed to any Mandates.
Ben Shapiro (prominent Right-wing talking head) also is fully vaccinated and also against Mandates.


That said, yes we do have laws - but the vast majority are prescriptive 'You cannot do XYZ' as opposed to proscriptive 'You must do XYZ' and therein lies the difference.

You must drive on the left. How would you feel about someone expressing their personal liberties to drive anywhere they like on the road if they were to take you out? Many laws exist for the protection of everyone

[F5 Dave]

I see chch is facing the “threat” of a snap lockdown over a handful of cases at a time when they been raving about how good si vax rate is....

Let’s think for a minute about airborne transmission.... how much virus particles does it take to infect another person?
Does anyone know?
Does the govt know?
How fast does your immune system work, either natural or immunised, how fast do those immune cells eat/destroy the virus?
Given how long the body takes to deal with most normal Illnesses id hazard a guess it’s not that fast....
Given all this fancy genomic tracking of who got infected where, surely by now the govt would have HARD evidence to show the UNvaccinayed spread the virus. Yes there are more of them in hospital but who did they catch it from?
That’s all they need to do is show the data instead of threatening people’s freedoms.
Remember we were told the virus can live on a petrol pump handle (despite all those benzene fumes) and last time I checked you can’t vaccine a petrol pump.

See despite my working in the tech industry, I understand that I am way too ignorant to make sensible use of exta data to "Make up my mind" "and Do my own Research ". Most people are. By far the majority. And especially people like you who would cherry pick dumb arguments in complete ignorance.

Its hilarious that you think you are a critical thinker. Quite cute, if it wasn't that you spreading misinformation and dumb questions are the sort of shit that makes people vaccine hesitant and health order compliance resistant.

For Fuck sake. This is the first time in my living memory we've actually had lockdowns and health mandates. Its hardly a Police state.

[pritch]

How fast does your immune system work, either natural or immunised, how fast do those immune cells eat/destroy the virus?


It's ironic seeing people bringing up the immune system. The people who die of COVID mostly die of intersticial pneumonia which results from inflamation caused by the body's response to the infection. You could almost say their immune system killed them.

[mashman]

It's ironic seeing people bringing up the immune system. The people who die of COVID mostly die of intersticial pneumonia which results from inflamation caused by the body's response to the infection. You could almost say their immune system killed them.

Is that almost as ironic as people bringing up the immune system killing the immune system when it is well understood, well, to those paying attention (hence irony), that the spike protein of covid causes inflammation... but hey, don't let misinformation get in the way of spreading stupidity. Some irony is just comedy gold.

[husaberg]

Is that almost as ironic as people bringing up the immune system killing the immune system when it is well understood, well, to those paying attention (hence irony), that the spike protein of covid causes inflammation... but hey, don't let misinformation get in the way of spreading stupidity. Some irony is just comedy gold.

So what is your medical training again?
How is it you claim to know more than medical professionals?

[TheDemonLord]

OK, maybe not every single last person that opposes mandates is anti-vax, just the overwhelming majority of them.
Ben Shapiro is a huge cunt for many other reasons, just as well he isn't also an anti-vaxer.

So we've gone from 'All people who oppose Mandates are Anti-Vax' to 'The Overwhelming Majority are'

I don't disagree that some people are anti-vax, but the majority of people objecting to the Mandates are doing so on the principle that the Government cannot compel you to do something to your body that you don't wish done to it.




Oh, dear, so much lack of understanding . . .

There are so many ways that unvaccinated people are putting the vaccinated at risk. Vaccines do work, but most are not 100% effective - some people will get sick, some will need ICU and some will even die, despite being vaccinated. Then there are the people that cannot be vaccinated and the people that are immuno-compromised. There is a thing called 'herd immunity', if you understood what that is then you would most likely be able to understand the reason why all of society benefits from having everyone that can be vaccinated, doing so.

Except for one teensy tiny detail - see, I'm quite familiar with Herd Immunity - and one of the key things that is required for it to work is for the Vaccine to stop or significantly limit transmission. The most famous example being the eradication of Small Pox in the wild.

The problem that we have is based on the best Scientific data (y'know - that thing you keep championing when convenient, but omitting when it's inconvenient) is that the Vaccine only has any meaningful effect at stopping Transmission within a narrow window of time.

And this isn't just my theory - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

One of the key issues cited is that the 90% for Herd Immunity number is predicated on a Vaccine that blocks Transmission.


Let's not forget the people that have medical events or are hurt in accident or need to get tumours checked - in some countries those people have died due to overwhelmed health services due to huge numbers of Covid cases. The reality is that high numbers of unvaccinated people can be a direct cause of health systems being overwhelmed, leading to suffering and deaths from other unrelated things. I consider the anti-vaxxers to be selfish cunts because their decision to not vaccinate puts the lives of other people at risk, but they care more about their mis-informed ideas than the lives of others.

Sure, and perhaps I might give that argument some credence if we were getting close to that, but we aren't - and we know we aren't because if there was even the slightest whiff of it, it would be run 24/7 through the News as justification for more abuses of power, more government spending etc.


Whenever I come across reasoning like the bit quoted it is very helpful, it tells me that the person does not understand the topic and is arguing from a position of ignorance. Not understanding how a vaccine works, not understanding the concept of herd immunity, not understanding the benefits of mass vaccination, etc. This is a fairly common thing with anti-vaxxers and science deniers, so many fallacious arguments of various types with the resulting holes in their reasoning that are big enough to drive a bus through. When someone says "if you are vaccinated than why do you care if anyone else if vaccinated" I read that as "I don't understand the science and really don't know what I'm talking about".


Then it seems to be a bit of a problem for all that torrent of abuse that I'm actually quite well read on the subject of Vaccines and Herd Immunity.

The Vaccine as it stands, for someone who is not in the at-risk age brackets (60+) and not with co-morbidity - will stop you from dying from Covid (well, take a 98% survival rate to 100% ;) )

The person who has been fully vaccinated and still dies from Covid - I think it's fair (if not harsh) to say that luck wasn't on their side. Or to put it another way - they have pre-existing factors that make the susceptible to any highly mutable and contagious respiratory pathogen.

And I don't say that glibly - I've lost elderly family members (who were VERY elderly) from complications from the Flu, it sucks - but that's the reality of getting to 90+.


Well, that's different to the numbers I've read. I don't even understand what the hell it is supposed to mean when you say "if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on" - in what circumstances are you at greater than 50% chance of being a carrier? The way that is phrased makes me think it is something posted on an anti-vax website by a barely literate retard.

Asymptomatic Carrier with both shots of the Vaccine vs an Asymptomatic carrier without the Vaccince.

If the carrier without a Vaccine is 100% likely to transmit and someone who does not have Covid represents a 0% chance - the numbers break down like this:

Double Vaxxed, within 3 months and a carrier: 57% chance of transmission
Double Vaxxed, after 3 months and a carrier: 70% chance of transmission
Recovered from Covid, within 5 months and a carrier: 20% chance of transmission

Come on - you're the one who is supposedly familiar with these concepts - and I'm supposedly the science denying anti-vaxxer (which is hilarious - as I can gladly point you to the pro-vaccination arguments I've made at length against anti-vaxxers on this forum)


There is a lot more to consider than just the death rate. There is the hospitalisation rate, which is much higher than the death rate. Then there is the possibility of 'long Covid' which sounds like a right cunt of a thing. Perhaps the most scary is the potential for long term (possibly life-long) organ damage (heart, lungs, kidneys, brain, gonads, etc) which scientists have found cases of, even in people that only ever had mild Covid symptoms.

Sure, I agree hospitalisation rates are a thing - but I come back to my point that if you play that to it's logical conclusion - you'd ban private transport, Alcohol and DIY.

We accept the cost to society for those things, knowing full well that we have to pay for them - so why are you okay with paying for those, but are suddenly aghast when I apply the same liberal position to something like Covid?

Furthermore - I'm skeptical of the claims about life-long damage from Covid - mainly because we've not really lived with the disease for long enough to make those sorts of predictions.


Personally, I'm not so worried about getting Covid now that I'm vaccinated. I'm worried about the lockdown measures crippling our society and the economy.

Then don't lockdown, join the Libertarian position


I'm worried about the health system being overwhelmed and that leading to many more deaths.

If that was close to happening, I, too, would share that concern - but it isn't - so citing it as a concern is like me saying I'm concerned about Tonga doing a Military invasion of NZ.


I'm worried about vulnerable people dying in part due to the decisions of the selfish people.

So you want to ban private Vehicles, Alcohol, Swimming Pools, DIY then? I'm hammering this point home because that is the price we pay for Freedom - some people will die due to their own stupid actions and tragically some innocent people will die as well.

I'm not happy about that reality - but I would pick it every day of the week because the alternative is absolute tyranny.


I'm worried about families and friends kept apart by closed borders (international borders and the Auckland border).

Then ignore the Borders.


All these measures to limit the spread of the virus are needed largely because of Government Policy.

There, I've fixed it for you. I'd rather the Government cared a little bit more about my Freedoms than it profess to care about my Health.


I'm not in favour of making anyone get the vaccine if they don't want to, but I am in favour of incentivising people to do the right thing.

Incentivizing or punishing?

See, those are two VERY distinct concepts. If the Government was to say 'On completion of your second dose, you'll get a $20 gift card' - I'd piss and moan about my taxes being wasted - but that is an incentive.


I also believe that letting a bartender serve hundreds of people on a busy Friday night, without requiring that person to be vaccinated, would be borderline criminal. For the sake of protecting others there are many jobs that absolutely should be restricted to only vaccinated people.

And here we get to what you actually believe - you believe in Punishment, by artificially revoking the Freedom of Movement and Freedom of association from the Jews, sorry, Bourgeoisie, Damn, Blacks - Oops - I mean 'Unvaccinated' to punish them.

Terribly sorry there, I sometimes get confused between which group we are meant to be discriminating against because we don't like them...


Similarly there are mass gatherings that could easily be super spreader events if not limited to only vaccinated people, it seems to me that it would be better to limit those gatherings to only vaccinated people than to outright cancel them. For example we have already had the 2020 Cold Kiwi and the 2021 Cold Kiwi cancelled, I'd rather be able to attend the Cold Kiwi while vaccinated than to have it cancelled again.

Ah yes, the Super Spreader events - that only seem to be super spreader events when it's not a Left-Wing protest...

(Do I need to post the picture of Stalinda at one of these, mask of taking a group photo without social distancing?)


There have been cases cropping up where there are workers that don't want to get vaccinated and there are other workers that don't want to work with unvaccinated people. You can say that the first group have rights, but don't the other group have rights too?

You only have the right to do something with your own body. This is where the correct understanding of Natural Rights is critically important:

If you don't want to work with someone who is Unvaccinated, you can choose to find another job or you can negotiate with your employer an arrangement whereby you don't have any contact with that person (e.g. change job sites, work remotely, change shifts, move desks etc.)

You cannot use your wants to enforce something upon someone else. You can only make decisions for yourself.

Again - your right to swing your fist in the air stops where my nose begins.


I've visited a workplace that had a sign asking people that had cold/flu/other symptoms to not enter because a worker there was undergoing chemotherapy, I wonder how a workplace in that situation would feel about unvaccinated workers/visitors during a pandemic?

This is an excellent point - In the scenario you've described - you have a single workplace - making a request, because of a specific issue.

I have no problem with this.

It's small scale, limited, with a reason, requested and not mandated. This is the type of social negotiation that the Liberal position encourages, free from the fiat of the State - that the individuals can decide what is best for themselves for a given scenario.

To answer the question as to how they would feel - Feeling isn't the important factor here - They've made a request and in a polite and tolerant society, other people would respect that. If there was a scenario where someone who was unvaccinated HAD to visit the workplace, then the appropriate thing would be negotiate an arrangement - such as the person on Chemo working from home that day isolating part of the premises.

Hopefully that illuminates the difference between Mandates (which I'm opposed to) and requests (which are fine by me).

[R650R]

It's ironic seeing people bringing up the immune system. The people who die of COVID mostly die of intersticial pneumonia which results from inflamation caused by the body's response to the infection. You could almost say their immune system killed them.

From what I’ve read the virus damages the ability of the blood to bind properly to oxygen, hence perceived need for ventilators which provevfutile If the bloodvitself is not carrying oxygen properly
Also ventilators themselves are dangerous if not carefully used, pre covid about 20% of patients end up with ventilator acquired pneumonia. A life saving tool but not without its own problems

[TheDemonLord]

You must drive on the left. How would you feel about someone expressing their personal liberties to drive anywhere they like on the road if they were to take you out?

Well, I left Auckland, so I think my perspective on that is rather clear... :lol::lol::lol:


Many laws exist for the protection of everyone

Sure, but most of those are 'this is what you can't do', very few are 'this is what you must do', and using your driving on the left example, the LTA has a number of exceptions where it doesn't apply - such as avoiding an accident - which is inline with the liberal principle of where a prescriptive law is required, it should be done with as much limitation as possible.

[MarkH]

Sure, but most of those are 'this is what you can't do', very few are 'this is what you must do'

Do you mean laws like "you can't work in hospitality serving customers if you are unvaccinated".
There is no law stating "you must get vaccinated", so what laws are you referring to that say 'this is what you must do'?

[husaberg]

From what I’ve read the virus damages the ability of the blood to bind properly to oxygen, hence perceived need for ventilators which provevfutile If the bloodvitself is not carrying oxygen properly
Also ventilators themselves are dangerous if not carefully used, pre covid about 20% of patients end up with ventilator acquired pneumonia. A life saving tool but not without its own problems

The pneumonia is a result of the dead white blood cells which create a pusy discharge, they are there to fight an infection.
The need for the ventilator is not a "perecieved need" it's a real-life consequence resulting from the virus and the body's immune system response to it lowering the ability to transport air from the lungs to the blood. Ventilators pump air with higher oxygen content. they do this under positive pressure so they pump more of higher oxygen content.
Is there no end to your willingness to spread misinformation?
Does spreading this misinformation somehow make up for your other issues????

[FJRider]

Do you mean laws like "you can't work in hospitality serving customers if you are unvaccinated".
There is no law stating "you must get vaccinated", so what laws are you referring to that say 'this is what you must do'?

Not so much law ... just (Government) "advised" practice and protocol for business's to be seen doing it right ... there might be a few strings attached if they don't follow that advice.

[FJRider]

You must drive on the left. How would you feel about someone expressing their personal liberties to drive anywhere they like on the road if they were to take you out? Many laws exist for the protection of everyone

People still die on the wrong side of the road ... and are expressing their personal liberty to overtake whenever they deem it necessary now.

Two died just last weekend because of this very action.

It might surprise me if you never had a close call ... by somebody doing this to you ... on your bit of road.

[R650R]

Highly suspect article from fluff news...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300440848/covid19-vaccination-how-mistrust-shadows-the-rollout-in-a-time-of-crisis


And in this one they neglect to mention that truck transport would have been thin on the ground back then and reserved for war efforts. Train would simply have been most practical and safest option in circimstances.
Yes many people list their lives but the logistics would have been a minor problem.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/300424548/it-was-a-nightmare-last-time-a-pandemic-swept-auckland-death-trains-were-needed-to-clear-the-bodies

[pritch]

Highly suspect article from fluff news...

As the TV news mentions virtually every nght that maori are slow to get vaccinated with no explanations as to why that might be, I sit here thinking WTF? The article only dealt with the views of one family but it suggests a partial answer.

I understand that Maori tend to regard "the Crown" with mistrust, there's ample reason for that, but the virus won't take their views into consideration.

[R650R]

As the TV news mentions virtually every nght that maori are slow to get vaccinated with no explanations as to why that might be, I sit here thinking WTF? The article only dealt with the views of one family but it suggests a partial answer.

I understand that Maori tend to regard "the Crown" with mistrust, there's ample reason for that, but the virus won't take their views into consideration.

I was more worried about the possible fake news angle, those type of people if they actually talk to media (especially about gang business in second interview) usually don’t have their names changed turning the piece into an agony aunt article ( a profitiable journalusm sector)...

On your point though the media and govt in NO way should be mentioning g what race is more vaccinated or not. That’s very dangerous territory. If it’s an issue they should be dealing direct with community leaders. Shaming any group especially with this 90% game only creates barriers.
Getting the vaccine (unless in remote area) is the easiest thing in NZ govt provided service history ever, you ring a number get an appointment and go, many employers even pay on company time, so I roll my eyes a bit too at any person saying it’s difficult (outside of their own personal choices etc)

[pritch]

On your point though the media and govt in NO way should be mentioning g what race is more vaccinated or not. That’s very dangerous territory. If it’s an issue they should be dealing direct with community leaders. Shaming any group especially with this 90% game only creates barriers.
Getting the vaccine (unless in remote area) is the easiest thing in NZ govt provided service history ever, you ring a number get an appointment and go, many employers even pay on company time, so I roll my eyes a bit too at any person saying it’s difficult (outside of their own personal choices etc)

If all demographic groups were getting themselves vaccinated at maximum speed I'd agree. There are definite targets though and if any particular groups are lagging behind, attention needs to go to those. When there's an attitude that suggests the government only wants Maori vaccinated to protect rich white people, the 90% target may be a lost cause. As absurd as that seems though, it's no sillier than suggesting the vaccine makes you magnetic.

As you say the process is really simple. Having said that, I don't remember seeing a single Maori person on either of my visits both of which were booked for Sunday evening. Not all Maori live in remote areas there are many in town here and from memory the local vaccination center ran from noon until 8PM seven days a week.
It's not as if it couldn't be fitted in to a busy schedule.

[husaberg]

On your point though the media and govt in NO way should be mentioning g what race is more vaccinated or not. That’s very dangerous territory. If it’s an issue they should be dealing direct with community leaders. Shaming any group especially with this 90% game only creates barriers.
Getting the vaccine (unless in remote area) is the easiest thing in NZ govt provided service history ever, you ring a number get an appointment and go, many employers even pay on company time, so I roll my eyes a bit too at any person saying it’s difficult (outside of their own personal choices etc)

Out of interest what demographics were you hoping to dissuade from getting vaccinated, wearing masks,using apps fake cures or obeying restrictions by spreading your misinformation about covid?

The noun Pandemic is not mentioned in that post, does one not understand grammar.
Every disease is a Pandemic in the modern world as they all spread “across the country or roundvthe world”.
1600 people sick in a country of 5 million is no crisis worth destroying jobs and lives for.


Well well well, our journey into communist hell continues.

There has only been 1650 alleged cases (out of 700,000 tests!!!!) of the virus, but what has spread faster has been submission to communist control.
Nearly 2 million have downloaded the Covid app so you can be sent to a govt “ health” camp to catch the virus if you didnt already have it.

But yay 3 million kiwis have said no to turning their phone into govt spy device.

Tommorow is D-day, public transport will be the barometer of how many of us have rolled belly up to mask wearing.
Hopefully most will say screw this shit and drive their cars to work.

You don’t have to wear a mask if it affects your physical or mental health and you do NOT need to present documents to prove this.

Out and about it’s refreshing to see nearly No one scanning the qr code thingy.

It’s quite clear now as the mountain of contradictions grow that it’s not about stopping the “virus”..


Masks are for destroying social interaction and communication with strangers. You know those moments in life when some shitbag is bashing his missus and enough of you make visual contact to know you’ve got each other back and intervene.
But with masks there will never be any Flight 93 “lets roll” moments of bravery, you’ll never know if your fellow citizen is a Karen or Stasi as you reluctantly board the blacked out train carriage...
A cop will never see your friendly smile, never know you like them and not let you off that minor stop sign indescretion...


Spare a thought for the unfortunate households this Xmas....

The households where Karen’s live.....

Instead of milk and cookies they will leave hand sanitiser and toilet paper out for Santa....

But he won’t be here Xmas nite Jonny, he has to stay in quarantine for two weeks first...

I can’t belueve comrade afdrn has t used this.... kids are very observant, how come Santa has freedom of travel?


The media are tripping over themselves trying to solve the mystery of why Africans aren't dying from covid as badly as the west.
Africans routinely take a cheap safe anti malaria drug invented in n 1960's called hydroxychloroquine....
Scooby Doo would solve that puzzle faster



So many vids about the Biden regime now investigating the “ outrageous” wuhan lab conspiracy its hard to choose which one to post ����������


Your odds of dying from Covid in NZ is about the same as winning Powerball....
People dream of winning powerball, actively visit known powerball superspreader hot zones twice a week in hope of winning...

Meanwhile about 6 times as many people die in drink drive car crashes.
We even have mass random surveillance testing for that too, typically about 1.5-2% are ‘ infected’ with the influence of alcohol.....
Would we tolerate say a 24hr lockdown every time you bought a beer at bar?
Or after your night at the bar you don’t leave through the front door, a govt agent escorts you to a ‘quarantine ‘ facility which you can’t leave for 24 hrs.
Just imagine that, we would ABSOLUTELY save 150 lives a year
The govt will NEVER do that so why all this crap with the virus where the potential victim has a 93% chance of not even needing hospital treatment...


As of Dec 4 2020

1,298,455 Total tests

2219 positive test results

139 (estimated based on 6.3% in previous data of 1600/80 approx) Hospitalised

25 dead

WHY is it SO HARD to find the data on how many people in NZ NEEDED hospital treatment for this.
This number has to be actively suppressed as ALL the other data comes up very EASY in searches.
The answer is so people don’t ask WHY are we scared.
Can you imagine a Pandemic being declared of the PM said oh by the way 93% of you that actually manage to contract the virus won’t need to go to hospital just stay home and rest.
Nothing else matters the maths tells the story, especially post lockdown any new cases should have spread massively as everyone suddenly enjoyed a watered down form of freedom.
And just think of all those Asymptomatic cases in the 3,800,000 people that have NOT been tested...
There should be another 6600 odd positive cases, another 400 extra in hospital and another 75 people dead, where are they????


Well it seems the MORE deadly and MORE contagious delta variant failed to deliver... just think about that, the infected person came on a flight where people would have taken masks off at times to eat and drink and all shared the same inflight tier facilities. THEN they sauntered all over a MAJOR metropolitan area and thefe was no outbreak.
Guess that’s why an ever nastier version lambda? Starts with L has just been “ discovered”....

Oh but we’ve locked down so quick, yes but not before the exposure events and not before all those exposed on weekends away returned to provincial centres.

One has to wonder if the new respiratory infection in young kids is a result of the sterility of lockdown life not letting there immune systems learn properly in early development months as the age band is very low.

Exactly... but that system is reserved for hunting down high value targeys that threaten the elite...

The whole covid tracker and vaccine passport is to identify the resistance and see whose not ready to submit to tyranny...

Just like how the vehicle rego scheme is used to harass a minority of the population, it flags the rebel’s and those living outside the grid for special attention that would otherwise be unwarranted.



Won’t plot spoil but a few pertinent points....

A dangerous bio warfare bacteria being tested/designed by USA escapes a lab in a foreign country (it was too dangerous to be making in their own country!) after a terrorist intrusion into facility.
One of them escapes and boards train...
It’s mentioned that it has 60% infection rate...
A top doctor is conveniently on the train and says to other passengers if your not sick already then you’ve got natural immunity as we’ve all been exposed by now...
Authorities lie to public and passengers and what’s happening to avoid panic....

Yep the Aussie thing is stupid I think it’s to deliberately trigger an eventual nationwide level 4 lockdown again and then to have full commie 24/7 track and trace and full forced vaccination....

Fluff news has an article that it’s at Mount Everest now, how bright is that to let it into the worlds most iconic location that has the temperature to store the virus forever or is it a cover story for future releases of the virus again....



The Covid tracer app stops the spread of the virus just as effectively as mandatory carrying of drivers licence stops unlicensed drivers from driving cars.

It’s kinda pointless though really, Jacinda has just demonstrated how willing the govt is to plunge the country into draconian lockdowns again for a few cases...
Now if EVERYONE in the current outbreak had scanned the SAME amount of people would be infected, the virus doesn’t care if your Bluetooth is on or not.
The resulting lockdown would prob be worse as with two deg of separation in modern society it would prob show even more people at risk of infection spreading...

But I guess we’ll all find that out soon enough when they decree it mandatory to scan everywhere

[F5 Dave]

Seems a fair question R666r.


Who are you hoping to kill? The brown people or just anyone in general?

[TheDemonLord]

Do you mean laws like "you can't work in hospitality serving customers if you are unvaccinated".
There is no law stating "you must get vaccinated", so what laws are you referring to that say 'this is what you must do'?

That's semantics - since the resolution is a positive action, backed by the State.

It's no different from a Gangster hurling a brick through a Window and then saying 'Well, if you pay the Insurance fee, we can guarantee there'll be no more bricks through the Window'

Or the Abusive partner whilst slapping their missus around saying "If you don't want to be slapped, then why didn't you do the dishes?"

[TheDemonLord]

Seems a fair question R666r.


Who are you hoping to kill? The brown people or just anyone in general?

Although not asked of me - I'll answer anyway:

I don't want anyone specifically to die, but I accept that in order to maintain Freedoms and Liberty - that by it's very definition means some people (innocent and otherwise) WILL die.

It is a price I'm happy to pay and I include myself in it.

Some people asked a question about Road Rules - well, here's an example that will help illuminate my position. I drive and I ride, I also drive with my Family (the thing that is singularly most precious to me).

When I drive on the road, I accept that there is a level of Risk, I could do something stupid and kill either myself or my Family - I also accept that someone else could do something Stupid and kill me or my Family.

Let us now entertain a scenario, if tomorrow the Government came out saying that all drivers would be mandated by Law to carry a device that would log every infringement carried out (crossing the centreline, speeding etc. etc.) with the goal of bringing down the road toll - I would be opposed to it. I believe that such a device violates the privacy and primacy of the individual, gives the State far too much power and does so with a presumption of Guilt, not of Innocent e.g. "If you have nothing to hide, you wouldn't be against it".

This is an extension of the Natural Right to not be interferred with by the State (the same principle that requires a Search Warrant for example or there to be Probable Cause).

And I would do so, knowing that the consequence of that Freedom, of that limiting of Government power (because such a device with modern technology would be very easy to implement) could be that some idiot might cause the Death of my Family.

That is the eternal price of Freedom, Some people might die so that it is preserved - I consider that it is a price worth paying for two reasons:

1: Everytime in history a Government has ignored an individual's natural rights, in pursuit of some 'Greater Good' - it's never ended well - normally with absolute oppression and Millions of Corpses
2: Societies that uphold an Individuals Natural rights have prospered and flourished.

To end this: it's not that I want Brown or any other person to die - I want everyone's freedoms maintained and restored. If that means some people, including myself and my family, may die because of it - so be it, because it's better than every alternative.

[Dadpole]

Let us now entertain a scenario

Let us entertain this scenario. 5% of road users have been given a waiver on the 'Keep Left' rule. Still happy to drive your family around knowing the next corner may be hiding one of these 'freedomists'?

[george formby]

Let us entertain this scenario. 5% of road users have been given a waiver on the 'Keep Left' rule. Still happy to drive your family around knowing the next corner may be hiding one of these 'freedomists'?

I had a brief conversation yesterday when a maskless customer trying to buy some beer gave me crap for wearing a mask.

Much to my surprise the first muffled thing that came out of my mouth was to ask them if they would be happy having surgery performed by a maskless theatre team.

They told me to fuck off and promptly stormed off down the street. Must have hit a nerve.<_<

[MarkH]

That's semantics - since the resolution is a positive action, backed by the State.

It's no different from a Gangster hurling a brick through a Window and then saying 'Well, if you pay the Insurance fee, we can guarantee there'll be no more bricks through the Window'

Or the Abusive partner whilst slapping their missus around saying "If you don't want to be slapped, then why didn't you do the dishes?"

Actually, it's more like not being able to do the job of a construction worker if you refuse to wear a hard hat and steel capped boots. Or not be allowed to be a truck driver unless you have the correct license. Or not be allowed to practise law unless you have a law degree. Or not be allowed to drive a car unless you have a license and wear a safety belt and pay the yearly registration for the vehicle and have a current WoF and have everything up to WoF standard and obey the road rules.

The reality is that no one has absolute freedom and in order to do plenty of different things there are other things you would have to do first. In this case it is about public health and not wanting hospitality staff to endanger the health of customers while doing their job. Your examples are clearly bullshit, they show what your mentality is like when it comes to public health measures. This isn't about violent people doing harm, it is about health professionals protecting people - in some ways they are protecting people against their own stupidity.

[TheDemonLord]

Let us entertain this scenario. 5% of road users have been given a waiver on the 'Keep Left' rule. Still happy to drive your family around knowing the next corner may be hiding one of these 'freedomists'?

But no one is being given a Waiver, it's simply people choosing not to comply with the rules.

Like people choosing to speed.
Like people choosing to drink-drive.

And to answer the question on that basis (knowing that we could put in technology to lock-out or stop people from being able to do so):

Yes.

[TheDemonLord]

Actually, it's more like not being able to do the job of a construction worker if you refuse to wear a hard hat and steel capped boots. Or not be allowed to be a truck driver unless you have the correct license. Or not be allowed to practise law unless you have a law degree. Or not be allowed to drive a car unless you have a license and wear a safety belt and pay the yearly registration for the vehicle and have a current WoF and have everything up to WoF standard and obey the road rules.

Can you take your vaccine off at the end of the day?
Can you revoke your vaccine?
Can you be disbarred from your Vaccine?
No?

Then a bit different. Not only that but you are trying to play a bit of a Switcheroo, considering we have these freedoms - to move about as we see fit without having to disclose our Health details. I'm stating that this freedom should be preserved.


The reality is that no one has absolute freedom and in order to do plenty of different things there are other things you would have to do first. In this case it is about public health and not wanting hospitality staff to endanger the health of customers while doing their job. Your examples are clearly bullshit, they show what your mentality is like when it comes to public health measures.

Sure, but again none of those infringes on my (or anybody elses) bodily autonomy. That's the bit you have to account for. It happens to be the most important bit, so why don't you try again - this time referencing that?


it is about health professionals protecting people - in some ways they are protecting people against their own stupidity.

And that, right there, is my issue.

That is the very essence and worst of all tyrannys. I generally prefer to use my own words - but this quote is far too good not to cite:


“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

C.S. Lewis

And that is exactly what you are advocating for.

[F5 Dave]

This article puts things in perspective and it was not just written by some knober journalist.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300441329/your-unvaccinated-friend-is-roughly-20-times-more-likely-to-give-you-covid


So yeah, thanks

[R650R]

Let us entertain this scenario. 5% of road users have been given a waiver on the 'Keep Left' rule. Still happy to drive your family around knowing the next corner may be hiding one of these 'freedomists'?

We already tried that, they were called foreign tourists....

Then there’s drunk drivers which going by police checkpoints account for 1.5-2% of ALL drivers at ANY time... never mind the methhead component

And let’s not forget a talkback radio goldmine overweight tired speeding trucks lol

[R650R]

Can you take your vaccine off at the end of the day?
Can you revoke your vaccine?
Can you be disbarred from your Vaccine?
No?

Then a bit different. Not only that but you are trying to play a bit of a Switcheroo, considering we have these freedoms - to move about as we see fit without having to disclose our Health details. I'm stating that this freedom should be preserved.



Sure, but again none of those infringes on my (or anybody elses) bodily autonomy. That's the bit you have to account for. It happens to be the most important bit, so why don't you try again - this time referencing that?



And that, right there, is my issue.

That is the very essence and worst of all tyrannys. I generally prefer to use my own words - but this quote is far too good not to cite:



C.S. Lewis

And that is exactly what you are advocating for.

The real over riding issue is that it sets a precedent for total control out of proportion to the threat and a generation of young people are suffering massive mental health damage being raised in this climate of fear. I suspect in 20 years time those kids will have no question about say euthanising anyone over 70 to save the planet/health system etc....
I did like that national asked for a timeline about restrictions, one doozy was Judith asking how long will we be scanning QR codes. I suspect she knows it’s forever but was trying to trap thectegine into saying it themselves

[bmwilly]

What is a "thectegine" and what language does it speak?

[MarkH]

Can you take your vaccine off at the end of the day?
Can you revoke your vaccine?
Can you be disbarred from your Vaccine?
No?


I had a measles vaccine as a kid - that one sticks for life!
But - why the fuck would I ever want to be rid of my immunity to measles? What would be the point of becoming vulnerable to that disease again?
I wish the Covid vaccine gave me life-long 100% immunity to Covid, that would be fantastic.
Only an anti-vaxxer would wish they could be free of the vaccine, vaccines are a modern miracle that have freed humankind from diseases such as smallpox, measles, mumps, rubella, polio and many other diseases.

I'm sick of this body autonomy BS. Wah, wah, but I want to remain vulnerable to this disease, wah, wah. I'm fine with someone declining medical intervention, as long as doing so doesn't put anyone else at risk. When your decision to remain a vector for disease affects everyone around you then there is every reason to limit how much you can do that would put others at risk. I'd be fine with schools refusing admittance of students that are not vaccinated for measles, something that does actually happen in several countries.

I think it is absolute bullshit that anyone has a RIGHT to serve bar to hundreds of people on a busy Friday night with no requirement to reduce the chance of infecting all the patrons with a potentially deadly disease. If you don't want to get a vaccine then don't get one, but don't expect to do a job that involves contact with hundreds of other people - that would be fucking retarded! ANY person in NZ can refuse a vaccine and throw in a job that might require it, that is their right and there is nothing I can (or would) do to change that. I 100% support the right to refuse a vaccine, as long as the person doing so is fine with accepting the consequences of the choice they make. If you feel that strongly about turning down medical help, whatever - I won't stop you. I'm sure you think that Typhoid Mary was unfairly picked on and she should have been able to keep her job without being bothered by any health professionals - it isn't her fault that the people that died didn't have a good enough immune system!

[pritch]

There is a YouTube clip of a tearful NZ, Brit immigrant nurse, ringing an English Talkback host saying she had been told not to come back to work until she's vaccinated. The nurse said she will lose her house if she remains unemployed. You'd think that about now she'd wake the fuck up and get the jab. Decisions have consequences.

Ken Mair (remember him?) is concerned about Maori losing their jobs because they don't want the jab. Instead of whinging he should be convincing them to get the jab.
Again decisions have consequences.

All the police in the US who don't want the jab are doing the country a big favour. These are mostly the same Trump supporting "bad apples" that everybody has been blaming for all of the racist bolocks that goes on in US law enforcement. Fine, fire the fuckwits. It's the best chance they ever had to clean the mess up.

I really don't get all the freedumb stuff about compuslory vaccinations. It's not new. You used to have to carry proof you'd had the appropriate inncoculations and vaccines to travel. The army didn't ask anybody if they wanted their jabs. Suddenly because people are ignorant of how the world works, or they've been reading idiot level stuff on the Internet, it's communism or whatever other bogeyman is hiding under their bed.

Darwin rules.

/rant

[Kickaha]

All the police in the US who don't want the jab are doing the country a big favour. These are mostly the same Trump supporting "bad apples" that everybody has been blaming for all of the racist bolocks that goes on in US law enforcement. Fine, fire the fuckwits. It's the best chance they ever had to clean the mess up.

More US police are dying from covid than from anything else work related

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/16/us/police-vaccine-covid-deaths/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/us/police-covid-vaccines.html

[george formby]

What is a "thectegine" and what language does it speak?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Postie1.jpg/300px-Postie1.jpg

Best guess on language is Japanese. Bit lost on the context.

[husaberg]

The real over riding issue

is your willingness to spread misinformation and your unwillingness to answer very simple questions as to why.

[R650R]

More US police are dying from covid than from anything else work related

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/16/us/police-vaccine-covid-deaths/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/us/police-covid-vaccines.html

That article fails to mention the other thing that’s been killing cops worse than guns for a long time... that being traffic accidents. About half of those are the high speed response to incidents gone wrong but the rest are presumable being struck by other vehicles during traffic stops or at accident scenes.
There are 750,000 cops in USA not including federal agents so the numbers mentioned in that article aren’t that bad compared to national average.

[R650R]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Postie1.jpg/300px-Postie1.jpg

Best guess on language is Japanese. Bit lost on the context.

I’m not game to google it after checking dictionary ... closest is Theca which is part of a plant serving as a receptacle or sheath enclosing organ or organism...
Teg being a sheep in its second year according to Oxfords finest

[R650R]

There is a YouTube clip of a tearful NZ, Brit immigrant nurse, ringing an English Talkback host saying she had been told not to come back to work until she's vaccinated. The nurse said she will lose her house if she remains unemployed. You'd think that about now she'd wake the fuck up and get the jab. Decisions have consequences.

Ken Mair (remember him?) is concerned about Maori losing their jobs because they don't want the jab. Instead of whinging he should be convincing them to get the jab.
Again decisions have consequences.

All the police in the US who don't want the jab are doing the country a big favour. These are mostly the same Trump supporting "bad apples" that everybody has been blaming for all of the racist bolocks that goes on in US law enforcement. Fine, fire the fuckwits. It's the best chance they ever had to clean the mess up.

I really don't get all the freedumb stuff about compuslory vaccinations. It's not new. You used to have to carry proof you'd had the appropriate inncoculations and vaccines to travel. The army didn't ask anybody if they wanted their jabs. Suddenly because people are ignorant of how the world works, or they've been reading idiot level stuff on the Internet, it's communism or whatever other bogeyman is hiding under their bed.

Darwin rules.

/rant

I think the real problem for that type of people is they believed and trusted in our system/illusion of democracy, you know thatÂ’s game we play everybody three years. We vote for the lesser of a selection of evil stuff based on their promises and hope weÂ’d get something close to the Shiney brochure. Bit like hiring a dodgy tradie off Facebook and not getting a written quote of the work thatÂ’s actually going to get done...
Those people sincetely believe their voice matters.
Meanwhile I was ahead of the game as this has all been advertised for years in advance so I had time to mentally prepare and accept what was coming for us.
From day one we left our borders WIDE open for months as watched the cartoonish scenes in China like it was some trailer for the next Netflix miniseries.
I knew they would gradually make masks/scanning/vaccines mandatory. Every time they made an error and roasted by media the response was predictable theyÂ’d introduce something new.
The only thing thatÂ’s taken me by surprise has been this traffic light malarkey which is just a rebranding of Lockdown 2021(C) (tm) into a lollipop style reward system to disguise lockdown not ending.
So whatÂ’s coming next winter in Season 4 of covid?
Compulsory smartphone ownership, govt will provide for the poor people.
Mandatory Bluetooth on
Mandatory health tracker smart watch if you leave house without phone
Mandatory installation of covid app on all new smartphones and devices
Mini one week lockdowns even when no outbreak prior to holiday periods to save the children aka circuit breaker lockdown

[husaberg]

That article fails to mention the other thing that’s been killing cops worse than guns for a long time... that being traffic accidents. About half of those are the high speed response to incidents gone wrong but the rest are presumable being struck by other vehicles during traffic stops or at accident scenes.
There are 750,000 cops in USA not including federal agents so the numbers mentioned in that article aren’t that bad compared to national average.

As usual, the facts are not on your side. so much winning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btaEDH775ko

2021
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 386
9/11 related illness1
Assault5
Automobile crash19
COVID19 250
Drowned3
Duty related illness2
Gunfire51
Gunfire (Inadvertent)1
Heart attack15
Motorcycle crash3
Stabbed3
Struck by vehicle12
Training accident1
Vehicle pursuit2
Vehicular assault17
Weather/Natural disaster1

2020
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 378
9/11 related illness15
Aircraft accident1
Assault1
Automobile crash19
COVID19248
Drowned4
Duty related illness5
Gunfire45
Gunfire (Inadvertent)5
Heart attack7
Heatstroke1
Motorcycle crash4
Struck by vehicle8
Vehicle pursuit2
Vehicular assault13

2019
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 155
9/11 related illness28
Accidental1
Assault4
Automobile crash23
Drowned1
Duty related illness2
Explosion1
Gunfire49
Gunfire (Inadvertent)2
Heart attack19
Motorcycle crash1
Struck by vehicle14
Training accident1
Vehicle pursuit1
Vehicular assault8

[Berries]

So whatÂ’s coming next winter in Season 4 of covid?
Compulsory smartphone ownership, govt will provide for the poor people.
Mandatory Bluetooth on
Mandatory health tracker smart watch if you leave house without phone
Mandatory installation of covid app on all new smartphones and devices
Mini one week lockdowns even when no outbreak prior to holiday periods to save the children aka circuit breaker lockdown
You watch way too much shit TV.

[pete376403]

You watch way too much shit TV.

Watching shit tv is one thing - believing that what you are watching is factual is whole 'nother level of crazy

[pritch]

Saw a sad Tweet from a US nurse last night. She was with a patient struggling to breathe, desperate to know what's wrong.
"You have Covid."
Between gasps, "No, that's false. They are just using that to control us. What's wrong with me?"

[TheDemonLord]

I had a measles vaccine as a kid - that one sticks for life!
But - why the fuck would I ever want to be rid of my immunity to measles? What would be the point of becoming vulnerable to that disease again?
I wish the Covid vaccine gave me life-long 100% immunity to Covid, that would be fantastic.
Only an anti-vaxxer would wish they could be free of the vaccine, vaccines are a modern miracle that have freed humankind from diseases such as smallpox, measles, mumps, rubella, polio and many other diseases.

You miss the point (again) all of the things you mentioned are 100% reversible. A Vaccine is not, Vaccines can and do have side-effects - some of which can be permanent.

If someone decides that actually for a disease that they have above a 98% chance of living from - they'd rather chance it or wait for some long term data - that is their business.

All you can do (if you are genuinely scarred) is make sure you are vaccinated and wear your N95 Mask, that (based on the science ;) ) should give you almost 100% protection.


I'm sick of this body autonomy BS. Wah, wah, but I want to remain vulnerable to this disease, wah, wah. I'm fine with someone declining medical intervention, as long as doing so doesn't put anyone else at risk. When your decision to remain a vector for disease affects everyone around you then there is every reason to limit how much you can do that would put others at risk. I'd be fine with schools refusing admittance of students that are not vaccinated for measles, something that does actually happen in several countries.

Okay, I'm scared you might punch me, therefore I want the Government to cut off your hand.

I also want the Government to keep you under isolation to prevent you from punching me.

That's what you are advocating for.

Whereas the Liberal position says that if I'm scarred of you punching me, I cannot compel the Government to interfere with your natural rights, therefore I either have to avoid interacting with you or make decisions to protect myself - just like choosing to wear a mask and choosing to be vaccinated.


I think it is absolute bullshit that anyone has a RIGHT to serve bar to hundreds of people on a busy Friday night with no requirement to reduce the chance of infecting all the patrons with a potentially deadly disease.

Okay then - where do you draw the line? Common Cold? the Flu? I've got 2 dead Grandparents due to Flu, so it certainly meets your criteria...

And furthermore what is the method by which you use to draw the line? Mortality rate? R rate? A formula based on both to work out how many dead people is acceptable?

I'll wait.

Just make sure that the cure isn't worse than the disease and doesn't cause the entirety of society to stop.


If you don't want to get a vaccine then don't get one, but don't expect to do a job that involves contact with hundreds of other people - that would be fucking retarded!

If you don't want a brick thrown through your window, pay the extortion fee.


ANY person in NZ can refuse a vaccine and throw in a job that might require it, that is their right and there is nothing I can (or would) do to change that.

Except you are the one calling on Government compulsion to do just that, so the whole 'there is nothing I can do' is an outright lie.


I 100% support the right to refuse a vaccine

No, you don't.

You've made that perfectly clear. You want to use the tyranny of the State to force people to take the Vaccine by artificially removing their rights wholesale.

So why are you lying to yourself?

I can hazard a guess that deep down you know what you are advocating for is morally wrong, oppressive and tyrannical - so you need to tell yourself that you really are the good guy.


as long as the person doing so is fine with accepting the consequences of the choice they make. If you feel that strongly about turning down medical help, whatever - I won't stop you.

See, there's the issue - What are those Consequences? Are they the Consequences that they face in a free society or are they the artificial consequences that you are going to impose upon them? Because those two things are not the same.

You are trying to paint yourself as a neutral party when in fact you are actively calling for oppression.


I'm sure you think that Typhoid Mary was unfairly picked on and she should have been able to keep her job without being bothered by any health professionals - it isn't her fault that the people that died didn't have a good enough immune system!

Well, see there's a slight difference - on an individual case-by-case basis, with appropriate evidence and check/balances - It is fine that someone like Typhoid Mary be placed into Quarantine.

Quick aside here - untreated Typhoid has a Mortality rate similar to small pox - 10 times more fatal than Covid - just thought I'd point that out.

Indeed, an individual tested positive for Covid, I'm fine with them going into a mandatory isolation period.

[TheDemonLord]

As usual, the facts are not on your side. so much winning

You sure about that?



2021
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 386
9/11 related illness1
Assault5
Automobile crash19
COVID19 250
Drowned3
Duty related illness2
Gunfire51
Gunfire (Inadvertent)1
Heart attack15
Motorcycle crash3
Stabbed3
Struck by vehicle12
Training accident1
Vehicle pursuit2
Vehicular assault17
Weather/Natural disaster1

52 Gun related deaths vs
17 + 2+ 12 + 3 + 19 = 53 Vehicle related Deaths


2020
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 378
9/11 related illness15
Aircraft accident1
Assault1
Automobile crash19
COVID19248
Drowned4
Duty related illness5
Gunfire45
Gunfire (Inadvertent)5
Heart attack7
Heatstroke1
Motorcycle crash4
Struck by vehicle8
Vehicle pursuit2
Vehicular assault13


50 Gun related deaths vs
13 + 2 + 8 + 4 + 19 + 1 = 47 Vehicle related deaths



2019
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 155
9/11 related illness28
Accidental1
Assault4
Automobile crash23
Drowned1
Duty related illness2
Explosion1
Gunfire49
Gunfire (Inadvertent)2
Heart attack19
Motorcycle crash1
Struck by vehicle14
Training accident1
Vehicle pursuit1
Vehicular assault8

51 Gun related deaths vs
47 Vehicle related deaths

For the 3 years given, one confirms what he said, 2 do not - however the 2 that do not also include accidental shootings, which if we remove gives 2 meeting the criteria, 1 not.

[MarkH]

Okay then - where do you draw the line? Common Cold? the Flu? I've got 2 dead Grandparents due to Flu, so it certainly meets your criteria...

I guess that the line is drawn by the government when they declare a public health emergency.
There would be a whole bunch of factors that get taken into account by the government and the health professionals that advise them.

How much confidence do I have that they get these things right?
I dunno, maybe around 10,000 times as much as how much confidence in you being right.
I'm pretty sure that the chance of me going "no, I don't accept what the government is saying because I read some posts by TheDemonLord and I trust him more" would be less than 1% of 1%.

[TheDemonLord]

I guess that the line is drawn by the government when they declare a public health emergency.
There would be a whole bunch of factors that get taken into account by the government and the health professionals that advise them.

You Guess? That's awfully trusting of you. Considering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_scandals_in_New_Zealand).

See, when the Government wants to revoke certain rights (and as a realist, I can accept that things like Rationing during WW2 was a short-term, necessary infringement for example) - I need a bit more clarity than 'Guess and Factors'

When it comes to the Health Professionals - or more specifically, the ones that act as advisors to the Government (so not your rank and file nurses/doctors) - they have less of a vested interest in My Health and more of a vested interest in making sure their numbers line up on their spreadsheet.

Not only that, but as someone who just so happens to dabble a fair bit in Data and Data manipulation - I can personally assure you that the mathematical modelling that is published and presented to the Public is done in such a manner as to suit the objectives of the one presenting it.

Or to put it another way 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics'.


How much confidence do I have that they get these things right?
I dunno, maybe around 10,000 times as much as how much confidence in you being right.

I'm pretty sure that the chance of me going "no, I don't accept what the government is saying because I read some posts by TheDemonLord and I trust him more" would be less than 1% of 1%.

And therein lies the difference between My position and yours.

Your position requires you to be right, Mine does not require me to be right.

Because in the position that I put forward, my decisions don't impact you and so if I'm horrendously wrong, I suffer the consequences.

The same is not true for what you advocate.

[MarkH]

Your position requires you to be right, Mine does not require me to be right.

Because in the position that I put forward, my decisions don't impact you and so if I'm horrendously wrong, I suffer the consequences.


Wow, such delusional BS.
Your position is that people shouldn't have to be vaccinated, even those that are doing jobs that involve contact with thousands of other people every week, at least that is what you have claimed in this thread. If you are horrendously wrong then thousands of New Zealanders could die.
My position is that for many jobs and activities people should be required to be vaccinated (they are free to find other jobs and not go to concerts or whatever). My position is very sound, the science backs it well - this vaccine is safe and vaccinating people isn't going to cause problems. If they would have been fine without the vaccine (the most likely way in which I could be wrong) then there is still no harm done.

Frankly, your position is rubbish. Your ideas rely on weird conspiracies.



Or to put it another way 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics'.


This sums up your rationale - you believe it's all a big lie and all around the world the medical scientists are just lying to us. They are all wrong and you are right, we should believe you because . . . reasons?
There is no reason for any one here to believe your nonsense, we all know officials can be corrupt or incompetent, but that doesn't make the vast number of officials worldwide wrong in this instance, and it certainly doesn't make you right.
Any facts, any evidence at all - it is wasted on you because you believe yourself to be right and anything that goes against what you believe is just lies. You will continue to believe what you want to believe and no amount of evidence will change your mind.

[Kickaha]

Saw a sad Tweet from a US nurse last night. She was with a patient struggling to breathe, desperate to know what's wrong.
"You have Covid."
Between gasps, "No, that's false. They are just using that to control us. What's wrong with me?"

At that point she should have just smothered them with a pillow


You miss the point (again) all of the things you mentioned are 100% reversible. A Vaccine is not, Vaccines can and do have side-effects - some of which can be permanent.

If someone decides that actually for a disease that they have above a 98% chance of living from - they'd rather chance it or wait for some long term data - that is their business.



Covid also has side effects and I'm not sure Death which is one of them is reversible either, I'm also unsure why the deniers always use that 98% chance of living and ignore every other know side effect from covid, just because you live doesn't mean you don't have long lasting major side effects

[husaberg]

At that point she should have just smothered them with a pillow



Covid also has side effects and I'm not sure Death which is one of them is reversible either, I'm also unsure why the deniers always use that 98% chance of living and ignore every other know side effect from covid, just because you live doesn't mean you don't have long lasting major side effects

not only that if you can break or slow the virus infection loop it cant infect others.

Because if you can limit the number of people that catch a disease it limits its transmission.
But hey commies mind control magnets spaeballs.....

[FJRider]

You Guess? That's awfully trusting of you.

What has dodgy Party donations .... the leaking of confidential patient information (that information not always showing the patient concerned to be truthful and/or honest in their situation) ... and sending dirty images to anybody ... and then suggesting HE has a trust issue ... ??? :killingme

If YOU believe half the bullshit YOU have posted on this subject (alone) ... it is really YOU with a trust issue. And gullible with it :niceone:


See, when the Government wants to revoke certain rights (and as a realist, I can accept that things like Rationing during WW2 was a short-term, necessary infringement for example) - I need a bit more clarity than 'Guess and Factors'

At worst the Government strategy is an educated guess ... based on facts and strategies used overseas that worked (and not applying those that didn't) ... And if they choose to declare a "National Emergency" ... look forward to a few more losses of your freedoms and (previously held) rights.

In such time ... locking up (until the emergency is over) those that spread "Misinformation" ... translated (at worst) at those spreading information contrary to approved Government policy and practice ... is entirely probable. The New Zealand Government has done it in the past :yes:


When it comes to the Health Professionals - or more specifically, the ones that act as advisors to the Government (so not your rank and file nurses/doctors) - they have less of a vested interest in My Health and more of a vested interest in making sure their numbers line up on their spreadsheet.

Name ANY one of those advisors ... and ANY proof confirming that :rolleyes:


Not only that, but as someone who just so happens to dabble in a fair bit in Data and Data manipulation - I can personally assure you that the mathematical modelling that is published and presented to the Public is done in such a manner as to suit the objectives of the one presenting it.

So you like to bullshit to those YOU may "Advise" ... and you admit it ... and because YOU do it ... THEY are too .. ??? :weird:


Or to put it another way 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics'.

See above ... :killingme


And therein lies the difference between My position and yours.

Your position is well known ... you couldn't lie straight in bed. Usually just bitter and twisted :beer:


Your position requires you to be right, Mine does not require me to be right.

His position requires him to do the right thing. Being right seems seldom achievable by you. :blank:


Because in the position that I put forward, my decisions don't impact you and so if I'm horrendously wrong, I suffer the consequences.

Lucky for HIM ... and completely normal for you.

I'm guessing your nickname isn't LUCKY. :devil2:


The same is not true for what you advocate.

Wait until you hear what I would advocate for you ... :killingme

[F5 Dave]

You left out the bit where hes a ladies front bottom.

[FJRider]

You left out the bit where hes a ladies front bottom.

HAS ... or IS .. ??

[F5 Dave]

I saw I'd missed the apostrophe, but dinner was called.

[TheDemonLord]

Wow, such delusional BS.
Your position is that people shouldn't have to be vaccinated, even those that are doing jobs that involve contact with thousands of other people every week, at least that is what you have claimed in this thread. If you are horrendously wrong then thousands of New Zealanders could die.
My position is that for many jobs and activities people should be required to be vaccinated (they are free to find other jobs and not go to concerts or whatever). My position is very sound, the science backs it well - this vaccine is safe and vaccinating people isn't going to cause problems. If they would have been fine without the vaccine (the most likely way in which I could be wrong) then there is still no harm done.

Frankly, your position is rubbish. Your ideas rely on weird conspiracies.

Let me ask you a direct question: Does the Vaccine work? Yes or No?

If Yes - then your statement of 'Thousands of New Zealanders could die' is False
If No - then your whole 'The Science backs it well' is False

Pick one. You cannot have it both ways.

Then once you've confirmed which side of the fence you want to sit on, then we can cover off the fact that I cannot use my fears to encroach on your rights and vice versa. If you are vaccinated but are still concerned about the risk (which is absolutely fine) - then you can choose not to go to high-risk events.

You cannot use your fears to force others to comply with your mandates.

Also - I have not put forward any conspiracies, quite the contrary. I've put forward a position based on Natural Rights, in opposition to Government overreach. I've not referenced any fringe blogs, the only references I have cited are those from Nature and the Lancet (probably the two most respected Medical Journals) - and that would be on whether or not the Vaccine stops transmission.

Quick aside to point out that since it doesn't stop Transmission - all your arguments about requiring a Vaccine to be safe in people facing industries is based on a false premise, but that is mere point scoring.


This sums up your rationale - you believe it's all a big lie and all around the world the medical scientists are just lying to us. They are all wrong and you are right, we should believe you because . . . reasons?

Well considering I used a quote that is well over 100 years old and has stood the test of time should be the first hint that what I'm implying is nothing new.

But let me to address it seriously - one of the things I do for a Day Job is BI (Business Intelligence) - which involves the manipulation of large amounts of data (in some cases hundreds of millions of rows of Data) and then I do fancy things with them to create pretty, interactive graphs for senior Management in the US.

In short - I'm quite familiar and adept at the Manipulation of Data. Consequently, I'm also quite familiar and adept at understanding how Data is Manipulated.

The problem is one of how Predictive analysis are done and specifically how they are done with small datasets over small periods of time.

Consider a sequence of numbers: 1, 3, 5, 12.

If you do a predictive analysis on that, by the 10th iteration, you could give a middle estimate of 800 (that is because the pattern is approximately N, 2N) - but what if the observed variance over the course of the sequence was +- 40 (that is the highest number is 40, the lowest is 0) - that's a significant margin of error.

You might say that I'm picking numbers at random to prove a point - so allow me to point to the real world model predictions against observed cases:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-new-estimated-infections-of-covid-19?time=earliest..2020-08-01

The above graph shows quite clearly that which I'm talking about. If you expand the time frame, you'll see that as time goes on (and the observed data on which to base the models on grows) the models become more and more accurate, but even the most accurate is still double the amount observed.

When I say 'The scientists are over reacting' - you say that this is just "everyone is wrong and I'm right" - well riddle me this: If the Scientists are so correct, why are their best estimates still double that of reality (that's a pretty big margin of error), in the worst cases they are 4 times larger.

Now let's walk it back a bit to Public Policy - consider this: The Government takes advice from the Scientists who are telling them it will be twice as bad as what it really is (best estimate) - consequently the Government enacts a set of highly restrictive policies...

Not exactly a conspiracy or a leap of Logic.


There is no reason for any one here to believe your nonsense, we all know officials can be corrupt or incompetent, but that doesn't make the vast number of officials worldwide wrong in this instance, and it certainly doesn't make you right.

So if officials can be corrupt or incompetent, how would you know if you just follow what they tell you and guess that they are working in our best interests (your words, not mine)?



Any facts, any evidence at all - it is wasted on you because you believe yourself to be right and anything that goes against what you believe is just lies. You will continue to believe what you want to believe and no amount of evidence will change your mind.

Mere projection - Look at the Data on the vaccine effects on the rates of transmission, look at the data comparing the predicted number of cases vs actual.

[TheDemonLord]

Covid also has side effects and I'm not sure Death which is one of them is reversible either, I'm also unsure why the deniers always use that 98% chance of living and ignore every other know side effect from covid, just because you live doesn't mean you don't have long lasting major side effects

Sure - however my position on this is something like:

When Covid was first announced (back in feb 2020) we heard people talking about Long Time/Life Long side effects, for a disease that had been in the wild for ~1-2 months.

Now, I can accept that they may have looked at things like scarring on the Lungs and compared it to other known diseases and made a reasonable inference that it is likely to be life long and long lasting - but that isn't what was said.

So any claims about Long Lasting - kinda requires there to be observed results over a long period of time.

[TheDemonLord]

You left out the bit where he's a ladies front bottom.

Love you too, Sweetie.


(and I even fixed your missing apostrophe)

[TheDemonLord]

What has dodgy Party donations .... the leaking of confidential patient information (that information not always showing the patient concerned to be truthful and/or honest in their situation) ... and sending dirty images to anybody ... and then suggesting HE has a trust issue ... ??? :killingme

If YOU believe half the bullshit YOU have posted on this subject (alone) ... it is really YOU with a trust issue. And gullible with it :niceone:

I'm only suggesting that Governments should be trusted as far as they can be thrown. Their track record (both in this country and globally) isn't exactly glowing.


At worst the Government strategy is an educated guess ... based on facts and strategies used overseas that worked (and not applying those that didn't) ... And if they choose to declare a "National Emergency" ... look forward to a few more losses of your freedoms and (previously held) rights.

I agree it's a guess, but the 'based on facts and strategies used overseas that worked' is a bit more of an issue. I've got my opinion as to which Facts and Strategies where chosen, based on certain ideological sympathies - the fact that we picked the strategy used by China and not Taiwan....


In such time ... locking up (until the emergency is over) those that spread "Misinformation" ... translated (at worst) at those spreading information contrary to approved Government policy and practice ... is entirely probable. The New Zealand Government has done it in the past :yes:

Sure, The Government could declare a National Emergency and has done it in the past.
Governments have also been overthrown (violently or otherwise) in the past.

Just a thought.

Remember one of the key pillars that upholds the English style of democracy that we have is that Governance is done with Consent.



Name ANY one of those advisors ... and ANY proof confirming that :rolleyes:

I can't name the ones I've personally interacted with, obviously - to answer the second part though - what do the Ministers and the Health leaders talk about? It's always about 'The Numbers'. Or for a different perspective - Google 'DHB Diversity' - and you'll see plenty of results about the various Diversity programs in our Health system - why is that?

Do you care what colour the person treating you is?
Does anyone here care about it?
What about Sexuality? Do you care if your nurse likes sucking dick or licking Vag?

I don't.

And yet to the Hospital Administrators, these things are important because the numbers don't align in their spreadsheet.


So you like to bullshit to those YOU may "Advise" ... and you admit it ... and because YOU do it ... THEY are too .. ??? :weird:

Actually, quite the opposite - I refuse to massage the Data to make it look more favorable and I've had some very fun meetings with the Board about it. Just like being a competent Mechanic or Builder means you can recognize cowboyism when you see it - and as above - predictions that are out by a factor of 4.

So who is the one bullshitting?



Your position is well known ... you couldn't lie straight in bed. Usually just bitter and twisted :beer:

Well, I'm not sure who you are spying on when they sleep, but it certainly isn't me....



His position requires him to do the right thing. Being right seems seldom achievable by you. :blank:

The right thing has never been to force other people to comply with your fears.
The right thing has always been to uphold other people's freedoms and rights.


Lucky for HIM ... and completely normal for you.

I'm guessing your nickname isn't LUCKY. :devil2:

Well - what would you rather - A Government that tries to interfere with your personal life or one that leaves you alone?


Wait until you hear what I would advocate for you ... :killingme

I'm fairly certain I could guess with some pretty reasonable accuracy (it's not like you've been shy or coy) - but therein lies the virtue of my position:

You might think I'm a Cunt, fair enough - that's your want and your right And I would not and will not infringe upon that right to soothe my feelings.

That's the difference between my position - I value your freedoms as much as I value my own and I would celebrate the fact that you are free to think of me as you wish and to express that opinion - rather than trying to force you to do something because of my fears/insecurity.

Just like making other people get vaccinated because of your fears.

[nerrrd]

Hmmm that's what I've heard too, apparently in the UK the vaccine isn't preventing transmission as well as they were hoping, actually there's very little difference now.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018818510/covid-19-update-with-professor-gary-mclean

So the idea of mandating the vaccine to protect others goes out the window, unless by others you mean the health system, your workmates (if you get too sick to do your job somebody else will have to) or any dependents you might have who would suffer in your absence.

On the plus side, it does mean that a large section of the vaccine refuseniks who aren't basing their decision on any reasonable medical grounds are likely to have their minds changed for them when they catch Covid and have a horrible experience.

And so it goes on (and on and on and on with no end in sight argghhhhh)

[F5 Dave]

"Apparently," no source, doesn't line up with 20x more likely to transmit when un-vaccinated article I posted before. I'd question the source for such a variation. There are also other health measures, compliance and issues with overcrowding which make comparison difficult.

The virus doesn't care, it will find the path of least resistance and work its way though the easiest to infect. Irrespective of political ideology.
Or conspiracy theories.

Side note, I just ordered some from this selection.

https://shop.behemothbrewing.co.nz/collections/all/products/all-one-big-damn-conspiracy

Check the artwork out. Bit hard on phone might need to search site.

I got some Bill Gates wants to microchip me. And Flat Earth because equally funny.

[george formby]

Pastor of Muppets....:laugh: NZ Pale Ale. Genius.

[nerrrd]

"Apparently," no source, doesn't line up with 20x more likely to transmit when un-vaccinated article I posted before. I'd question the source for such a variation. There are also other health measures, compliance and issues with overcrowding which make comparison difficult.

I expect this article refers to the same study that Professor McLean is referring to – in the link I posted before Jim Mora asks him specifically about the stuff article with the 20x figure at around 2 minutes 29 seconds, whereupon he starts talking about the Lancet study and how the vaccine stacks up over there preventing transmission etc. Bear in mind it's all generalised for a radio audience (me!) of course.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

I guess the UK are also a lot further down the vaccine road than we are, so another way it might not be directly comparable (yet).

[pritch]

Hmmm that's what I've heard too, apparently in the UK the vaccine isn't preventing transmission as well as they were hoping, actually there's very little difference now.


Ii's difficult to understand why this is news. When the Pfizer vaccine first came out, one of their scientists said vaccinated people will still need to wear masks. "The vaccine does not sterilise your nostrils." A vaccinated person with non-symptomatic COVID could potentially still be spreading the virus.

[george formby]

Did anybody catch which website the Merckan heckler worked for?

The ranty one who shouted over the press questions in Kawakawa yesterday.

[MarkH]

Let me ask you a direct question: Does the Vaccine work? Yes or No?

If Yes - then your statement of 'Thousands of New Zealanders could die' is False
If No - then your whole 'The Science backs it well' is False


I've previously answered this and as much as I could explain it to you, I don't have the ability to understand it for you.
TBH I don't really see much point in answering your questions as you are clearly immune to learning anything. If I said something what was in keeping with what you wanted to believe then sure, you would totally agree and accept it. Anything I reply which isn't what you want to believe, you will just dismiss as 'fake news' or scientists lying or whatever. There really isn't any point trying to convince the wilfully ignorant of anything.

[TheDemonLord]

Ii's difficult to understand why this is news. When the Pfizer vaccine first came out, one of their scientists said vaccinated people will still need to wear masks. "The vaccine does not sterilise your nostrils." A vaccinated person with non-symptomatic COVID could potentially still be spreading the virus.

Perhaps it's news because those that are taking a moment to think about it are realising that what is being said:

"Get vaccinated to get back to what we love doing"
"Stop the spread"
"90% for Herd Immunity"
etc.

And what is scientific fact are not adding up.

From this thread - we see someone saying that they think it's wrong for the jew I mean blacks, I mean Land Owners, I mean 'Unvaccinated' to be serving hundreds of people in a crowded bar, potentially infecting them all - when the science shows as you put it: "A vaccinated person with non-symptomatic COVID could potentially still be spreading the virus."

Which rather puts several holes in the messaging we are being given about getting Vaccinated and ending of Lockdowns.

[husaberg]

I've previously answered this and as much as I could explain it to you, I don't have the ability to understand it for you.
TBH I don't really see much point in answering your questions as you are clearly immune to learning anything. If I said something what was in keeping with what you wanted to believe then sure, you would totally agree and accept it. Anything I reply which isn't what you want to believe, you will just dismiss as 'fake news' or scientists lying or whatever. There really isn't any point trying to convince the wilfully ignorant of anything.


odd what some people defend.


https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54487154
White House hosted Covid 'superspreader' event, says Dr Fauci

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/31/coronavirus-trump-campaign-rallies-led-to-30000-cases-stanford-researchers-say.html
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/donald-trumps-positive-covid-test-at-least-seven-people-test-positive-after-white-house-event/ONK54TTPWOKZSPEY6LLF3OLK7M/
https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_trump-events-leave-trail-covid-19-infections/6196697.html

[TheDemonLord]

I've previously answered this and as much as I could explain it to you, I don't have the ability to understand it for you.
TBH I don't really see much point in answering your questions as you are clearly immune to learning anything. If I said something what was in keeping with what you wanted to believe then sure, you would totally agree and accept it. Anything I reply which isn't what you want to believe, you will just dismiss as 'fake news' or scientists lying or whatever. There really isn't any point trying to convince the wilfully ignorant of anything.

You answered it, then you contradicted yourself later on.

Just like how you say you're for freedom of choice whilst simultaneously asking for consequences for those who 'make the wrong choice'.

I've not said 'Fake news' to anything you've posted - the irony of you accusing me of dismissing what you say as a justification to dismiss my points should surely not be lost... even on you...

That's before we get to the repeated attempts to mischaracterize what I say.

As for the Scientists lying - What is your take when the estimated case models are wrong by either double or quadruple? Should anyone blindly trust groups that get it consistently wrong by such a large margin?
Would you use a Contractor who gave you a Quote for some work that was double or quadruple the quote from anyone else?

These are the questions, the 'following the Science' - that you have no answer for.