Post Pandemic Lockdown Scenarios

[flyingcrocodile46]

I would like to extend my best wishes and hopes for everyone during and following this global crisis for humanity. I would also like to offer the following thoughts and observations in the hope that they may either help or entertain you in some way and also in the hopes of encouraging others to offer their own observations, thoughts and plans in a helpful open dialogue that we might all benefit from as we seek to understand and plan for our futures.

I have been doing a lot of research and thinking about what is happening, the causes, the short & long term effects and exacerbating factors that have bought us here and what is likely to happen moving forward. I tend to write down important issues and observations as I attempt to get my head around them and continually edit them until I am satisfied that I have. The following is a summary of my observations and thoughts thus far (still a work in progress);



The looming international depression

Given the scale of financial market losses the world experienced in the month before lock down and the Trillion$ upon Trillion$ being poured into the rapidly deflating full spectrum of massively overinflated investment bubbles, one can only shake their heads in bewilderment as all the rules get tossed out the window and we teeter on the precipice of the greatest depression in known history.

Not so sure that it will happen? Then please consider the following. In 2008 (after/during an Initial $1 Trillion govt bail out) the Fed started quantitive easing at a rate of 90 billion a month of magic money to the big banks (a little over 1 Trillion a year) with little respite since. This took the US debt from 8 Trillion to over 23 Trillion at the end of 2020). Now they are announcing multiples of Trillion$ each month with over 1 Trillion required to be made available for the banks in the overnight market to fund their Repo market shortfalls to keep their overnight trading balance sheets propped up.

I dare say none of you noticed the lack of fanfare that accompanied the removal of the previous Bank reserve requirements (to maintain cash holdings no less than 10% of the debt ledger). They can now loan out (manufacture electronic credit) without any limits at all. For those that don't know, the previous limit was to retain $1 cash (actual paper/coin) on hand for every $9 of magic money that they create electronically via loans (debt). Oh! and BTW The Federal reserve (there are 12 of them) are not owned or controlled by the US Federal govt (or the states). They are entirely owned by the banks that they issue magic money to. Don't believe me, Google it for yourselves/.

It appears the only thing preventing the realisation of free-fall is the unprecedented worldwide lockdown that has effectively killed market trading. You can't even get physical gold bullion presently.

Barring a miracle, it appears very likely that many businesses will be unable to fund their continuation/re-start (and/or are likely to suffer many order cancellations that may make their continuation pointless). Many other businesses will seek to downsize following order cancellations and/or greatly diminished market prospects. This will result in large scale loss of employment and income that will see hundreds of thousands divesting themselves of assets and many family homes foreclosed due to unserviceable mortgages on rapidly devaluing properties that in many cases will be sold for less than the money owed on them.

Given the scale of financial market losses the world has experienced since February, Govts and businesses are likely to come out of this pandemic decidedly gun-shy about the just-in-time supply model and globally dispersed production. This will likely result in a retreat from hyper-globalization, as Govts and big businesses seek to reduce future vulnerabilities by bringing supply chains closer to home and incorporating redundancies to protect against future disruption. An added benefit is a potentially more carbon friendly supply chain and (along with big national and city infrastructure projects) will create much needed employment opportunities.

Quantification of the collapse of a lot of businesses/services that are required to re start the economy and provide employment will occur and very (imo) likely be followed by govt legislation that will result in

l* Consolidation and enhancement (via burdensome regulatory requirements for employment and public health security) of big business monopolies and franchising over smaller independent businesses who can't finance pre-start employment and public health compliance requirements for any businesses deemed to be part of essential supplies and services. (Think OSH compliance X 33).
l* Establishment of Govt/big business partnerships in strategic industries to underwrite otherwise unprofitable redundancies and domestic product supply infrastructure for essential services, Raw materials, products and big infrastructure projects.

l* I'm sure there should be more on this list, but my crystal ball is a bit clouded ad I find it difficult to use logic to recognise and assess possibilities that are subject to political distortions. Open to your thoughts here as it is important that we understand as many of the more probable possibilities as is practical.



Who’s to blame and what to will happen as a result?


There has to be a bad guy to blame and China is widely (if not justifiably) seen to be getting too big for its boots by many partisan and racist (waves to Australia) western countries that are in lock step with the USA. There is also speculation around the way China managed reporting of the Covid 19 outbreak that Duncelot Trump so delicately pointed out was "Made in China". So it’ll likely be China that cops the blame imo.

Going by history, we will very likely see this morphed into a cold war between western countries and China (China being the new Red Technology Terror) in order to justify an arms race to continue the squandering of world wide taxes. Oh yeah! don't you fret about taxes, they ain't going to disappear - more to follow.

We will likely see a pivot from privacy concerns to the logistics of safety and social distancing (which will be milked for all it is worth by governments around the world) to increase control over and decrease freedoms of the masses make us all safe from each other in this deadly new world that we have been so thoroughly scared into being terrified of educated about. Privacy concerns about revealing our whereabouts and activities will give way to how best to service a population with a demand for goods and services while still maintaining social distancing requirements (that our new hyper inflated fear levels will demand). We will likely see the swift introduction of the following measures before the wave of fear subsides.

l* Travel restrictions
l* Immunity passports - Oh yeah, that's already an international governmental talking point
l* Initiation of massive public (control) transport infrastructure growth plans
l* Social Credit/Class (behavior reward/penalty) system underwritten with a new "No Play- No Pay" Social obligations contract.
l* Digital currency. Turn it on if you’re good. Turn it off if you’re not.
l* Social gathering (dissent) restriction/controls.

Chinese style Smart City technology is likely to be implemented to monitor for and control viral outbreaks. This will typically include temperature checks at major travel points using surveillance and thermal scanning camera networks to monitor and prevent viral contagion and a massive digital camera network for tracking and enforcing quarantine zones and supporting hands-free access transit systems etc. (Big brother on steroids).




Other (less insidious) likely follow on effects?


Public gathering places that are already being weakened by the internet (libraries, movie theatres and other entertainment venues) will be further weakened. With public resources shifted into plague control, they will suffer a drop in funding. I suspect that our concerns post-crisis will be more basic: i.e. where can I live affordably and how can I access job and services safely.

There is likely to be Increased interest by individuals and companies in development of in-house pandemic preparations. Bug out bags, quarantine rations, and family/community planning based on emergency situations. Anyone surprised?

There will very likely be abig shift to increase the home-based work population substantially (future proofing Govt agencies, Councils and business services from the effects of future lock downs). The regular, 9 to 5 business days are likely to become flexible working days, and a more significant segment of the workforce is likely to become "night people" and have off-hours and rest during the daytime while others are working. This may see an increase in 24/7 operations for businesses that traditionally did not operate this way, such as for supermarkets, takeout food businesses, and centralized food distribution and preparation centres. All of these will require enabling of enhanced technologies for logistics management to serve a population always awake and in need of goods and services at all times.

We will likely experience a big increase in want/need for remote first technologies. An acceleration in 5G implementation will support a change in societal connectivity demands (NO 5G DID NOT CAUSE COVID 19). This will also support the expedited implementation of VR solutions for remote collaborations and social activities. As a society, we can expect restrictions in social gatherings, but humans are fundamentally social creatures. VR represents a solution to this innate need.




Work Income and Assets


It is likely that a significant number of people currently living in cities will see a lot more appeal in small town living and/or more remote lifestyle blocks for a multitude of reasons including amongst others; More flexible (work from home) employment opportunities, more comfortable/safer/self sufficient Isolation, cheaper cost of living for BUI recipients, unemployment forcing early retirement and need to downsize to a caravan park or country town for an early retirement. This will ease the pressure on city housing stock shortages and further deflate house prices in cities. However, the flip side is that we will likely see an increase in housing demand and construction in select retirement destinations (offering further relocation/employment incentives for trades people to leave cities).

Taxes and Universal Basic Incomes (UBI) or unemployment benefit as we know it. Not so much a revelation to us Kiwis who have been paying taxes to house, clothe, feed, educate and entertain an already sizable percentage of our population (ever notice the similarity between the words population and pollution?). Weeeeell, there's good news and bad news here and it doesn't require a degree in rocket science or even an explanation in order for the worthy to understand the personal and collective impact. The only question is, which camp you and I will be in next month. Google UBI and get your crystal ball out for more info.

Areas I think will provide employment opportunities are as follows;

l* Domestic supply of essential products
l* Massive public (control) transport infrastructure & health care growth - health $ back into small communities
l* Large scale govt investment in housing stock to shelter the newly homeless.
l* Housing construction boom in smaller communities
l* Surveillance and thermal scanning camera networks to monitor and prevent viral contagion and a massive digital camera network for tracking and enforcing quarantine zones and supporting hands-free access transit systems etc (big Brother).
l* Iinterest by individuals and companies in developingin-house pandemic preparations. (specialists)
l* VR solutions for remote collaborations and social activities
l* Recycling plants to produce building materials that put carbon into the ground (though this really just an item on my wish list)

l This section is also very light and I imagine many of you will have some constructive ideas and insights in this area. Please contribute them in following posts.




Prefered but unlikely cure for what ails the world

An international debt Jubilee (the writing off of all debt) is the best way to start fixing the wealth inequality of the world. As I see it, even if the fed (and other central banks) only gets 5 cents on the dollar for their mortgage backed securities and/or govt bonds, they are still ahead of the wealth transfer game, as the electronic money they used to buy the security was magic money that they made out of thin air.

Why is that world leaders can't get it through their thick heads that they can make all of the economic ills of the world go away with a wave of their middle fingers to the banks as they make laws to take back control of their sovereign coin and re-set the playing field by abolishing ALL existing debt. All of a sudden everything is the same but there is no debt. Only the parasitic ticket clippers and leeches at the very top of the magic money-go-round will lose anything. Even then, all they will lose is magic money debt that they shouldn't have had in the first place. No-one need lose any material possessions (not even the leeches at the top).

Keen on hearing your constructive contributions.

Stay home and stay well

[flyingcrocodile46]

Another useful way of looking at the economic situation (courtesy of Simon Mair a Research Fellow in Ecological Economics at the University of Surrey).

As James Meadway wrote “the correct Covid-19 response isn’t a wartime economy – with massive upscaling of production. Rather, we need an “anti-wartime” economy and a massive scaling back of production. And if we want to be more resilient to pandemics in the future (and to avoid the worst of climate change) we need a system capable of scaling back production in a way that doesn't mean loss of livelihood. So, what we need is a different economic mindset. We tend to think of the economy as the way we buy and sell things, mainly consumer goods. But this is not what an economy is or needs to be. At its core, the economy is the way we take our resources and turn them into the things we need to live. Looked at this way, we can start to see more opportunities for living differently that allow us to produce less stuff without increasing misery”.


Simon Mair continues ..”The dominant idea of the current system we live in is that “exchange value” is the same thing as “use value”. Basically, people will spend money on the things that they want or need, and this act of spending money tells us something about how much they value its “use”. This is why markets are seen as the best way to run society. They allow you to adapt, and are flexible enough to match up productivity capacity with use value.

What Covid-19 is throwing into sharp relief is just how false our beliefs about markets are. Around the world, governments fear that critical systems will be disrupted or overloaded: supply chains, social care, but principally healthcare. There are lots of contributing factors to this. But let's take two.

First, it is quite hard to make money from many of the most essential societal services. This is in part because a major driver of profits is labour productivity growth: doing more with fewer people. People are a big cost factor in many businesses, especially those that rely on personal interactions, like healthcare. Consequently, productivity growth in the healthcare sector tends to be lower than the rest of the economy, so its costs go up faster than average.

Second, jobs in many critical services aren’t those that tend to be highest valued in society. Many of the best paid jobs only exist to facilitate exchanges: to make money. They serve no wider purpose to society.

Yet because they make lots of money we have lots of consultants, a huge advertising industry and a massive financial sector.

Meanwhile, we have a crisis in health and social care, where people are often forced out of useful jobs they enjoy because these jobs don’t pay them enough to live.

Pointless jobs

The fact that so many people work pointless jobs is partly why we are so ill prepared to respond to Covid-19. The pandemic is highlighting that many jobs are not essential, yet we lack sufficient key workers to respond when things go bad.

People are compelled to work pointless jobs because in a society where exchange value is the guiding principle of the economy, the basic goods of life are mainly available through markets. This means you have to buy them, and to buy them you need an income, which comes from a job.

The other side of this coin is that the most radical (and effective) responses that we are seeing to the Covid-19 outbreak challenge the dominance of markets and exchange value. Around the world governments are taking actions that three months ago looked impossible. In Spain, private hospitals have been nationalised. In the UK, the prospect of nationalising various modes of transport has become very real. And France has stated its readiness to nationalise large businesses.

Likewise, we are seeing the breakdown of labour markets. Countries like Denmark and the UK are providing people with an income in order to stop them from going to work. This is an essential part of a successful lockdown. These measures are far from perfect. Nonetheless, it is a shift from the principle that people have to work in order to earn their income, and a move towards the idea that people deserve to be able to live even if they cannot work.

This reverses the dominant trends of the last 40 years. Over this time, markets and exchange values have been seen as the best way of running an economy. Consequently, public systems have come under increasing pressure to marketise, to be run as though they were businesses who had to make money. Likewise, workers have become more and more exposed to the market – zero-hours contracts and the gig economy have removed the layer of protection from market fluctuations that long term, stable, employment used to offer.“

[flyingcrocodile46]

In strictest confidence, message me and I will give you my phone number.

[Berries]

In strictest confidence, message me and I will give you my phone number.
Do you want to post up your CV so we know who you are?

[mashman]

Another useful way of looking at the economic situation (courtesy[FONT=&quot] of Simon Mair a Research Fellow in Ecological Economics at the University of Surrey). [I]

As James Meadway wrote

This... coz it adds the finite planet into the equation. As for everything else: Where does taxation come from to pay for a UBI when less people are working, especially those high paid highly specialised people whose industries are being degrowified?

[caspernz]

In strictest confidence, message me and I will give you my phone number.


Do you want to post up your CV so we know who you are?

My first thought as well Berries :facepalm::innocent::confused:

[MaxPenguin]

It's a perfect time to switch to a resource based economy. Because stuff.

[mashman]

It's a perfect time to switch to a resource based economy. Because stuff.

lol... ya don't switch to an RBE, there's a rather important economic step that needs to be taken to set the stage for whatever, and I do mean whatever and not just RBE, economy comes next. That step destroys things like the employer - employee relationship and deals with people not having to work for a living etc... Then we might accidentally hit an RBE or come up with something even better (if that's possible).

[F5 Dave]

lol... ya don't switch to an RBE, there's a rather important economic step that needs to be taken to set the stage for whatever, and I do mean whatever and not just RBE, economy comes next. That step destroys things like the employer - employee relationship and deals with people not having to work for a living etc... Then we might accidentally hit an RBE or come up with something even better (if that's possible).

I'll fire up the digger, you start throwing the bodies in.

[MaxPenguin]

I'll fire up the digger, you start throwing the bodies in.

Ya need any headstones?

[sidecar bob]

Or we could all just go back to doing whatever the fuck we were doing prior to this temporary hiccup in our lives.
People love to overthink this shit.

[Grumph]

Or we could all just go back to doing whatever the fuck we were doing prior to this temporary hiccup in our lives.
People love to overthink this shit.

And - with respect as he's obviously intelligent - the OP has form on here for starting major shitfights and either walking or being pushed away.
Look at the Vaccination thread.

At this point in time any post pandemic scenario is premature.

[sidecar bob]

And - with respect as he's obviously intelligent - the OP has form on here for starting major shitfights and either walking or being pushed away.
Look at the Vaccination thread.

At this point in time any post pandemic scenario is premature.

Maybe you could call him for some counselling;) must be tough building a chassis & fixing the mower in these awful times.
I will go back to bike tinkering from the original location & having KFC for lunch once a week.
We don't need to tie ourselves up in knots over returning to normal.
Might even get the RC30 going in the first week back.
Meanwhile, I've had a bunch of great sleep in's with my lovely wife & caught up on my own bikes, well I will have in ten days, more posts to come on the projects at home thread.
We only need to worry about whats going on our own backyards.
Buying into a pile of tripe that the op is pedaling that we can not change is simply scaremongering.

[F5 Dave]

I'll fire up the digger, you start throwing the bodies in.
I was kinda going for the whole inevidibile Stalinesc scenario when new socialist regiemes are adopted. Because humans. Oh we'll all trade onions we've grown for sheep or tractors evemly and there will be no ownership blah blah.
Bang Thud, bang thud.

[husaberg]

I was kinda going for the whole inevidibile Stalinesc scenario when new socialist regiemes are adopted. Because humans. Oh we'll all trade onions we've grown for sheep or tractors evemly and there will be no ownership blah blah.
Bang Thud, bang thud.

Isnt it traditional to pick on a proportion of the population blame them for all ou woes and steal all their goods and boot them out.
I personally think we should start with the poms.

[Berries]

Isnt it traditional to pick on a proportion of the population blame them for all ou woes and steal all their goods and boot them out.
I personally think we should start with the poms.
Fuck you.

If we are going to throw racist terms around I think you will find it was the chinks.

[jasonu]

Or we could all just go back to doing whatever the fuck we were doing prior to this temporary hiccup in our lives.
People love to overthink this shit.

With the addition of boycotting anything made in China. It won't always be possible but that's my plan/personal protest.

[F5 Dave]

Isnt it traditional to pick on a proportion of the population blame them for all ou woes and steal all their goods and boot them out.
I personally think we should start with the poms.
Well, traditionally it is the Dews, but Hell yes on proposition OutPom.

[husaberg]

Fuck you.

If we are going to throw racist terms around I think you will find it was the chinks.

All very good but i said start with the poms....
Poms dont get a vote either:msn-wink:


Well, traditionally it is the Dews, but Hell yes on proposition OutPom.
We cant do that they sell very good oranges and dates and other tropical fruits.


https://i.imgflip.com/3s27me.jpg

[mashman]

I was kinda going for the whole inevidibile Stalinesc scenario when new socialist regiemes are adopted. Because humans. Oh we'll all trade onions we've grown for sheep or tractors evemly and there will be no ownership blah blah.
Bang Thud, bang thud.

inevitable? Yeah, I can see the equivalence of today v's the 20's/50's :blink:. You and sidecarbob are lovers aren't you?

[F5 Dave]

Sorry. You're right. We have evolved since then as a species and nothing learnt from human behavior studies applies to us anymore.

We are the chosen ones.

We are special.

[mashman]

Sorry. You're right. We have evolved since then as a species and nothing learnt from human behavior studies applies to us anymore.

We are the chosen ones.

We are special.

Well I Am certainly the more positive of the 2 of us ;).

[F5 Dave]

I think you mean Naive.

[husaberg]

I think you mean Naive.

As hes a pom He should be stripped of all his assets and be slow roasted over a low heat and then fed to the dogs.
he wants a resource based economy lets put him to use.
hes just a drain on our resoursece he pays no tax yet expects the world to support him in smoking weed and giving goats handjobs all day

[mashman]

I think you mean Naive.

Nope, I meant what I said, because I see 99% of the people being peaceful for 99% of their day and therefore having the capacity for great change by nurturing that instead of using law to oppress and money to grade. You don't. Hmmmmmmmm... yeah, you're right, you have a nice healthy positive view of the entire human race and how bad and wicked they all are :killingme

[sidecar bob]

inevitable? Yeah, I can see the equivalence of today v's the 20's/50's :blink:. You and sidecarbob are lovers aren't you?

If that means we can both see bullshit for what it is, then maybe.

[mashman]

If that means we can both see bullshit for what it is, then maybe.

More you both compare apples with oranges. There are worlds of difference between today and nearly 100 years ago... especially in terms of the abundance of resources. And who in their right mind would keep someone in power for 30ish years to walk a "communist" path to hopefully make things better? other than a couple of hundred million Russians that is. Yeah, people are such cunts that way, all doing what they're told n shit to try to make things better.

[TheDemonLord]

To answer the OP's question:

I've got some concerns with the overstepping of certain civil liberties by the NZ Police and how comfortable they are with doing it. If the emergency powers they have been granted aren't wholesale revoked, then I will be very concerned.

The predictions I've seen is that the next 6 months are going to be critical - If a Business is going to fail, it's going to be in that time period. If enough of them go belly-up, we'll get a domino effect, which could see a full recession.

Then we need to talk about the massive debt that the Government aid program is going to come with, Political point scoring about Socialists running out of other peoples money to spend aside, that's a big chunk of Change the Government is going to have to pay back and it's going to have long-term effects.

That said, on the positive side, a large number of workers for whom the technology and work environment existed for them to work remotely, but due to 'old fashioned' thinking about how to do business, were denied this opportunity - well, they've now had a crash course in proving it is doable. This should have some interesting effects in terms of Office Space, Commuting, etc. I'm thinking in terms of say the post-war Women's Rights victories that were partly due to Women filling the positions of labour, whilst the men were off fighting.

I think we are going to see a lot more investment in the tech side for remote collaboration tools for industries that either were slow adopters or thought that there was no way they could work remotely.

On the international side, There are likely to be some interesting conversations regarding China. From the speculation on the extreme side that suggests the Virus may not be entirely of natural origin, to the role the WHO has played and to the very clear fact that due to China's internal machinations, this was released upon the world.

There's a viewpoint (which is a stretch and I don't entirely agree with) that goes along the lines of the explicit, known actions of China to block or otherwise downplay the outbreak, which lead to it going global could be considered a Biological attack and therefore an act of War/Terrorism by the Chinese state.

Again, I think it's a bit far (given the current level of info) but it raises some ideas.

[F5 Dave]

More you both compare apples with oranges. There are worlds of difference between today and nearly 100 years ago... especially in terms of the abundance of resources. And who in their right mind would keep someone in power for 30ish years to walk a "communist" path to hopefully make things better? other than a couple of hundred million Russians that is. Yeah, people are such cunts that way, all doing what they're told n shit to try to make things better.
Oh Fuck! You stupid Fucking Cunt!

Learn some history. Keep someone in power? Like they had no fucking choice. He was one of histories greatest mass murderers. No one was safe. Not even his inner circle which was regularly purged.

But it's a history that repeats itself again and again. A hundred years?!? Fucking nothing. We are still humans, and it's stupid cunts like you that think otherwise and allow this shit to happen because they think they are smart.

Certain governance has moderated this sort of behavior, but it's not a sure thing nor is it long standing. Read a fucking book.

[FJRider]

I've got some concerns with the overstepping of certain civil liberties by the NZ Police and how comfortable they are with doing it. If the emergency powers they have been granted aren't wholesale revoked, then I will be very concerned.



Emergency powers are just that. In times of emergency. As for "Civil Liberties" being "Overstepped" refer to the Emergency powers act ... in times of National lockdown ... civil liberties are few. A bit like Freedom of speech does not, and cannot overrule the laws of the land. When Emergency powers are enacted ... those powers and rules MUST take precedence.

There were parts of the world that had armed police and military patrolling and were not shy to use them.


When times get tough ... pull your head in. As Far as I could see ... NZ Police were VERY restrained.

[FJRider]

With the addition of boycotting anything made in China. It won't always be possible but that's my plan/personal protest.

:laugh: Even the "Made in New Zealand" labels are made in China ... :laugh:

[mashman]

Oh Fuck! You stupid Fucking Cunt!

Learn some history. Keep someone in power? Like they had no fucking choice. He was one of histories greatest mass murderers. No one was safe. Not even his inner circle which was regularly purged.

But it's a history that repeats itself again and again. A hundred years?!? Fucking nothing. We are still humans, and it's stupid cunts like you that think otherwise and allow this shit to happen because they think they are smart.

Certain governance has moderated this sort of behavior, but it's not a sure thing nor is it long standing. Read a fucking book.

As I said, there are worlds of difference between today and nearly 100 years ago. I did not discount the abuse that was taking place. T'was funny to read you thinking otherwise though. People did what they were told n shit to try to make things better. Under pain of death or not does not detract from the love shared among the people... which was primarily the initial point i.e. people embrace change where they consider the change that is coming better.

History is also littered with revolutions to overthrow governments where the people rise to get behind an ideal and its representation for going forwards and making things better. Lenin, the guy who chose Stalin as his successor, was installed by a peoples revolution wasn't it? I guess you didn't read that book eh.

As much as I love your ranty tanty "you know nothing and therefore you're not smart" comedy routines, and as fun as it might be to role out the troll, I don't think I could do a better job of that than you're already doing yourself.

[TheDemonLord]

Emergency powers are just that. In times of emergency. As for "Civil Liberties" being "Overstepped" refer to the Emergency powers act ... in times of National lockdown ... civil liberties are few. A bit like Freedom of speech does not, and cannot overrule the laws of the land. When Emergency powers are enacted ... those powers and rules MUST take precedence.

There were parts of the world that had armed police and military patrolling and were not shy to use them.


When times get tough ... pull your head in. As Far as I could see ... NZ Police were VERY restrained.

I've got no problem with Social Distancing, staying in your bubble etc.

When the Police start making certain statements - for example, saying you can't drive to the nearest beach even if you are adhering to all of the conditions required, then yes, I have an issue.

When the Police start improvising what is and is not allowed and have to retract it later, that's an even bigger concern. The Police do not have the privilege of interpretation of the Law, that is the domain of the Judiciary and the courts. As for Rules and powers taking precedence over certain rights and liberties, The only answer I can give is the simple one:

No, They do not.

[TheDemonLord]

History is also littered with revolutions to overthrow governments where the people rise to get behind an ideal and its representation for going forwards and making things better. Lenin, the guy who chose Stalin as his successor, was installed by a peoples revolution wasn't it? I guess you didn't read that book eh.


Ah Yes, Lenin, such a nice guy - who was happy to whip up jealousy amongst the peasant classes and laughed heartily when they murdered people wholesale.

I've read that book, perhaps you should read it too - especially the part about what happens when you start with the idea that Person B is entitled to things that Person A has.

[MaxPenguin]

I've got no problem with Social Distancing, staying in your bubble etc.

When the Police start making certain statements - for example, saying you can't drive to the nearest beach even if you are adhering to all of the conditions required, then yes, I have an issue.

When the Police start improvising what is and is not allowed and have to retract it later, that's an even bigger concern. The Police do not have the privilege of interpretation of the Law, that is the domain of the Judiciary and the courts. As for Rules and powers taking precedence over certain rights and liberties, The only answer I can give is the simple one:

No, They do not.

I hear ya, but logistically how much harder do you think a lockdown would be to manage if there were people driving around, to and from beaches, baches , tramping tracks etc. With the limited resources of just the police it would be near impossible, then the military would have to be called in to bolster numbers, curfews set etc, and can you imagine the civil liberterians then? This is the best way, suck it up, it will (hopefully) soon be over-ish.

[R650R]

I've got no problem with Social Distancing, staying in your bubble etc.

When the Police start making certain statements - for example, saying you can't drive to the nearest beach even if you are adhering to all of the conditions required, then yes, I have an issue.

When the Police start improvising what is and is not allowed and have to retract it later, that's an even bigger concern. The Police do not have the privilege of interpretation of the Law, that is the domain of the Judiciary and the courts. As for Rules and powers taking precedence over certain rights and liberties, The only answer I can give is the simple one:

No, They do not.

So they have made a few minor errors... stuff like that they prob really talking to aucklanders, the majority of who would have to drive a significant distance to beach and the close contact that would involve in the limited car parking spaces they have compared to provincial areas.
My neighbour has scanner and there have been heaps of pursuits happening, shitbags out stealing but Comms have been doing their best to encourage this by making cops abandon pursuits on empty roads!
I’ve been driving/riding to essential work and not been pulled over once. Should have army at all major chokepoints checking whose out and about if this lockdown is to be done properly.

[R650R]

There’s two ways this pans out... the virus magically mostly disappears and we return to some form of normal rampant consumerism after being tattooed/implanted with bill gates digital ID2020 social/vaccine passport
Certificate
Of
Vaccination
I
D

Covid

Or this virus turns out to be as nasty as they say it is. Then we have at least three years living under full blown communism to control spread til it naturally mutates itself out of existence as all virus strains do. This will be a major worldwide depression and everyone will be off to workcamps in exchange for food as all western economies will be crippled by the early welfare dolled out to “keep the economy going”

One thing Is for sure either way, given the chance of a crisis govt will pass new laws and taxes to “save us”.... next election will be very interesting

[Katman]

As for Rules and powers taking precedence over certain rights and liberties, The only answer I can give is the simple one:

No, They do not.

Does that go for mandatory vaccination as well?

[TheDemonLord]

I hear ya, but logistically how much harder do you think a lockdown would be to manage if there were people driving around, to and from beaches, baches , tramping tracks etc. With the limited resources of just the police it would be near impossible, then the military would have to be called in to bolster numbers, curfews set etc, and can you imagine the civil liberterians then? This is the best way, suck it up, it will (hopefully) soon be over-ish.

IMO it's the same as allowing people to go to the Supermarket, they managed to do that without much issue. Add in a bonus snide point that going to a supermarket poses more of a risk than going to say, one's privately owned bach or going camping out in the bush.

The burden of proof in this case would be to show that either people when engaging in these activities were breaching the lockdown rules (fair enough) or that the activities themselves could not be done without breaching the lockdown.

On both of those points, the Police can't do that, which is why I take an exceptionally dim view of their conduct.

[MaxPenguin]

IMO it's the same as allowing people to go to the Supermarket, they managed to do that without much issue. Add in a bonus snide point that going to a supermarket poses more of a risk than going to say, one's privately owned bach or going camping out in the bush.

The burden of proof in this case would be to show that either people when engaging in these activities were breaching the lockdown rules (fair enough) or that the activities themselves could not be done without breaching the lockdown.

On both of those points, the Police can't do that, which is why I take an exceptionally dim view of their conduct.

I am sure supermarket trips are factored into the models along with keyboard warriors.

[Gearup]

There’s two ways this pans out... the virus magically mostly disappears and we return to some form of normal rampant consumerism after being tattooed/implanted with bill gates digital ID2020 social/vaccine passport
Certificate
Of
Vaccination
I
D

Covid

Or this virus turns out to be as nasty as they say it is. Then we have at least three years living under full blown communism to control spread til it naturally mutates itself out of existence as all virus strains do. This will be a major worldwide depression and everyone will be off to workcamps in exchange for food as all western economies will be crippled by the early welfare dolled out to “keep the economy going”

One thing Is for sure either way, given the chance of a crisis govt will pass new laws and taxes to “save us”.... next election will be very interesting


Or, how about this? The virus is brought under control, gradually, and we resume our lives, gradually, and sort ourselves out as usual with a few changes like we normally do.

Anyway, The Prime Minister is giving a briefing on Thursday about the whole thing with clarification around level 3 lockdown rules etc.

[sidecar bob]

IMO it's the same as allowing people to go to the Supermarket, they managed to do that without much issue. Add in a bonus snide point that going to a supermarket poses more of a risk than going to say, one's privately owned bach or going camping out in the bush.

The burden of proof in this case would be to show that either people when engaging in these activities were breaching the lockdown rules (fair enough) or that the activities themselves could not be done without breaching the lockdown.

On both of those points, the Police can't do that, which is why I take an exceptionally dim view of their conduct.
Check out this load of crap.
"They think that because they pay rates they have right to be at their bach" well no shit Sandra.
49% of Coromandel ratepayers live outside the district. She should be very careful what she wishes for.
If they traveled before lockdown, then no offence has been committed, and surely transporting your entire bubble to another vacant dwelling of your own ownership doesn't break the bubble rules.
I appreciate what the headline says but she was banging on about it before lockdown.
"Covid 19 coronavirus: Bach owners relocating during lockdown ready for Easter - NZ Herald" https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12322497

[TheDemonLord]

I am sure supermarket trips are factored into the models along with keyboard warriors.

I'm sure they are, but that still doesn't provide a justification, The onus should be on the Police to prove that either people are going to breach the rules by going to their bach or that it can't be done in a way that breaches the rules - and that's where I take umbrage.

[MaxPenguin]

I'm sure they are, but that still doesn't provide a justification, The onus should be on the Police to prove that either people are going to breach the rules by going to their bach or that it can't be done in a way that breaches the rules - and that's where I take umbrage.

Like I said, not enough resources. We have managed to do this without the military, isn't that a great bit of teamwork?

[TheDemonLord]

Like I said, not enough resources. We have managed to do this without the military, isn't that a great bit of teamwork?

Did we have Police monitoring the Supermarkets? No?

Then it's not a case of resources, that's just a cop-out (Pun fully intended).

[TheDemonLord]

Does that go for mandatory vaccination as well?

That depends on whether the Civic responsibility is included in that discussion.

[mashman]

There’s two ways this pans out... the virus magically mostly disappears and we return to some form of normal rampant consumerism

This is what will likely happen because this is all that is currently on the table to choose from. Similarly to the OP, I'd venture, and instead of the COVID (gold), we'll get a UBI and most likely with a debt jubilee to reset everything to "fair". No other laws will need to be changed (they might, but it'd be risky given that it could skew the "fair" bit), because the UBI will be enough to ensure that we continue with rampant consumerism and taxation flowing from where most accept it should flow from. All parties will get behind a UBI because it will be considered "fair" as it will apply equally to everyone. All parties will get behind a debt write-off because it will be considered "fair" as it too will apply equally to everyone i.e. no individual, business or government will have any debt. But the end result will be the same as we run out of resource, confront tech unemployment as businesses all compete and upgrade for the next industrial revolution leaving jobs to the UBI, the environment changes as it's raped further for ever more exotic resources to sell sell sell so that we can earn money and create useless jobs etc...

It's the best we can do apparently.

[MaxPenguin]

Did we have Police monitoring the Supermarkets? No?
).

Probably due to aforementioned resource issue.

[eldog]

Probably due to aforementioned resource issue.

Glad it hasn't got to that level.
Still had 'security' in the supermarket I use.

Thought it was strange the announcement in the shop.
Dont over purchase we won't be running out.

Here I am looking at shelves empty and restrictions on quantity on others....


At work the bank and accountant think this will all pass and things will slowly get back to the way they where. Sure some people will make changes like more remote work at home or whatever. Maybe less requirements to be in a big city.

[sidecar bob]

Glad it hasn't got to that level.
Still had 'security' in the supermarket I use.

Thought it was strange the announcement in the shop.
Dont over purchase we won't be running out.

Here I am looking at shelves empty and restrictions on quantity on others....

That's because people have been over purchasing.
Once this shit is over & people stop hoarding, I imagine theres households that won't need to go to the supermarket for three months.

[eldog]

SB - That's probably true for a lot of people.

The only thing I have hoarded is that I have finally spent some time with those around me who matter.

[TheDemonLord]

Probably due to aforementioned resource issue.

I've seen security at a few supermarkets (not all, mind) but no Police presence.

This is fine, Security to make sure people behave themselves at a difficult time, but the need for actual enforcement isn't there, so too it should be with those wanting to go to their baches.

[MaxPenguin]

I've seen security at a few supermarkets (not all, mind) but no Police presence.

This is fine, Security to make sure people behave themselves at a difficult time, but the need for actual enforcement isn't there, so too it should be with those wanting to go to their baches.

Because most, except a few selfish twats are playing the team game, so correct we don't need them, but would if we allowed people to go all over the show. I think we are just going to go round in circles here.

[Gearup]

I've seen security at a few supermarkets (not all, mind) but no Police presence.

This is fine, Security to make sure people behave themselves at a difficult time, but the need for actual enforcement isn't there, so too it should be with those wanting to go to their baches.


I've read the Government may have got it wrong with enforcement under the Public Health Act because it's not for that according to a disaster law expert. His belief was it may not stand up in a court.

It didn't help with the ambiguity over Police powers initially on the lockdown.

However the same law expert said under the state of emergency we're in, Police powers are broad.

[FJRider]

I've got no problem with Social Distancing, staying in your bubble etc.

Your bubble was where you were in lockdown.


When the Police start making certain statements - for example, saying you can't drive to the nearest beach even if you are adhering to all of the conditions required, then yes, I have an issue.

Essential driving isn't all the way across town with the entire family ... then join the groups already there ... isn't social distancing. When some on facebook pages were suggesting rules for walking on footpaths ... so when you meet others coming the other way you know what to do ... shows too many have no idea what the concept of social distancing is. The rules were a total fuck-up anyway. In lockdown you stay the fuck at home. The more you and your family go out ... the bigger the risk you either spread or get it yourself. Or a member of your "Bubble" will/might. The "It wont happen to ME" attitude ... with the "I know my rights" group ... just helps keep us ALL in lockdown longer. I'm still working on full pay so I don't give a toss about your situation. But my family and friends are in lockdown. And in their interest I have the concerns.


When the Police start improvising what is and is not allowed and have to retract it later, that's an even bigger concern. The Police do not have the privilege of interpretation of the Law, that is the domain of the Judiciary and the courts. As for Rules and powers taking precedence over certain rights and liberties, The only answer I can give is the simple one:

No, They do not.

Police have their instruction and interpretation of what is required. If you don't like it ... argue it out in court after lockdown. The rules were not as clear as they could have been ... but the one rule that should be is (you might have missed it) STAY THE FUCK AT HOME ... !!!

[FJRider]

However the same law expert said under the state of emergency we're in, Police powers are broad.

If Police are following the instructions from Government ... Police can't be be held accountable. But "State of Emergency" makes some of the laws void. As the enforcement is in the interest of public safety and health.

A state of emergency ... combined with a national Pandemic ... will bring some complications with Policing. Locking up the rule breakers just means more essential workers and needed resources diverted from where they should be.

[actungbaby]

Probably due to aforementioned resource issue.No they have private security .

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[FJRider]

I've seen security at a few supermarkets (not all, mind) but no Police presence.

This is fine, Security to make sure people behave themselves at a difficult time, but the need for actual enforcement isn't there, so too it should be with those wanting to go to their baches.

All Supermarkets have camera's ... all recording. Security takes the load off supermarket staff. Police will respond fast to security requests for help. Faster than 111 calls response would be.

[FJRider]

At work the bank and accountant think this will all pass and things will slowly get back to the way they where. Sure some people will make changes like more remote work at home or whatever. Maybe less requirements to be in a big city.

Many management staff do this already. I know of one GM running his Auckland business from his vineyard near Wanaka. Direct flights from Queenstown means a quicker commute to the office than he had from his home he had in Auckland.

[MaxPenguin]

No they have private security .

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

That's good as the police don't have the resources to guard the supermarket. Is it groundhog day?

[TheDemonLord]

Because most, except a few selfish twats are playing the team game, so correct we don't need them

Indeed.

Just like people going to Baches

[eldog]

Many management staff do this already. I know of one GM running his Auckland business from his vineyard near Wanaka. Direct flights from Queenstown means a quicker commute to the office than he had from his home he had in Auckland.

Very wise person.
Probably has video feed from business as well.
and why not, he probably has a very good manager in place.
I know it isnt possible in my line of work unless there is a very good manager
to put up with a lot of shit.

Having the lock down has been quite good.
The people who always have days off during the week because the kid is sick, whatever, can become their problem.

[TheDemonLord]

Your bubble was where you were in lockdown.

Essential driving isn't all the way across town with the entire family ... then join the groups already there ... isn't social distancing. When some on facebook pages were suggesting rules for walking on footpaths ... so when you meet others coming the other way you know what to do ... shows too many have no idea what the concept of social distancing is. The rules were a total fuck-up anyway. In lockdown you stay the fuck at home. The more you and your family go out ... the bigger the risk you either spread or get it yourself. Or a member of your "Bubble" will/might. The "It wont happen to ME" attitude ... with the "I know my rights" group ... just helps keep us ALL in lockdown longer. I'm still working on full pay so I don't give a toss about your situation. But my family and friends are in lockdown. And in their interest I have the concerns.

Police have their instruction and interpretation of what is required. If you don't like it ... argue it out in court fter lockdown. The rules were not as clear as they could have been ... but the one rule that should be is (you might have missed it) STAY THE FUCK AT HOME ... !!!

Yeah.... No.

You've missed the point spectacularly.

People have to get out of the house - Could be for shopping, could be for exercise, could be purely for Mental health to take an hour away from young children who are crawling up the walls bored out of their minds and aren't able to comprehend why they can't do any of their usual activities. Furthermore, the Police did affirm afterwards that going outside was okay, so long as you maintain your distance.

It's entirely possible to go to your own bach, and fully maintain social distancing, following all the requirements laid out by the Police and there isn't an argument you've managed to present that rebuts this point.

Now, as for the Police and their instructions, given the mixed messages (that you yourself acknowledge) - It's not exactly a wild leap of the imagination to suggest that some of that 'instruction' is at best misinterpreted and at worst, straight up Bullshit.

I don't disagree that in an emergency new Police powers may be needed, but it is part of our duty as citizens to keep a close eye on what is being asked for, in order to be the balance that the system needs in order for it to work effectively.

[FJRider]

... People have to get out of the house - Could be for shopping, could be for exercise, could be purely for Mental health to take an hour away from young

The mental health thing is overrated. Police got that response often and sent them home.

Your mental health (which is suspect at the best of times) in relation to risking your family's life (which one do you wand dead) is a no brainer ... stay the fuck at home.

[FJRider]

Having the lock down has been quite good.
The people who always have days off during the week because the kid is sick, whatever, can become their problem.

Many parents are getting paranoid about their kids health. One cough and a parent rushes to them ... some kids are playing on it.

The little pricks learn fast ... :shifty:

[jasonu]

it is part of our duty as citizens to keep a close eye on what is being asked for, in order to be the balance that the system needs in order for it to work effectively.

Doesn't matter what the public thinks. The government is making new rules without consultation, getting the police to enforce them and there is fuck all you can do about it.

[TheDemonLord]

The mental health thing is overrated.

Ah yes, because we are world leaders (in the west) in having really low rates of Suicide, DV and Child Abuse...

[Kickaha]

That's because people have been over purchasing.
Once this shit is over & people stop hoarding, I imagine theres households that won't need to go to the supermarket for three months.

https://www.mix1023.com.au/local/drakes-supermarket-directors-message-to-man-wanting-refund-on-150-packs-of-toilet-paper/

Why didn't they refuse to sell it to him in the first place ? Although I guess he may have purchased over multiple trips

[sidecar bob]

https://www.mix1023.com.au/local/drakes-supermarket-directors-message-to-man-wanting-refund-on-150-packs-of-toilet-paper/

Why didn't they refuse to sell it to him in the first place ? Although I guess he may have purchased over multiple trips

He's eventually going to get through the toilet paper, but 150 litres of hand sanitizer?
These people are thinking with the reptile part of their brains.

[Gearup]

Doesn't matter what the public thinks. The government is making new rules without consultation, getting the police to enforce them and there is fuck all you can do about it.


How are the Government making new rules without consultation?

[onearmedbandit]

The mental health thing is overrated. Police got that response often and sent them home.

Your mental health (which is suspect at the best of times) in relation to risking your family's life (which one do you wand dead) is a no brainer ... stay the fuck at home.

So you're saying we shouldn't go out for walks?

[MaxPenguin]

How are the Government making new rules without consultation?

Was wondering that. Very transparent so far.

[swarfie]

He's eventually going to get through the toilet paper, but 150 litres of hand sanitizer?
These people are thinking with the reptile part of their brains.

4,800 rolls:laugh::laugh: That's gunna take more than his lifetime. What a :tugger:

[sidecar bob]

4,800 rolls:laugh::laugh: That's gunna take more than his lifetime. What a :tugger:

And I doubt I've used 150 litres of hand cleaner in a lifetime of being a mechanic.
Maybe he was hoping it would go up in value, like the Shaun Harris Milo incident.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/drinks/70752970/classic-milo-for-at-least-4000-in-trade-me-auction

[F5 Dave]

I was concerned about Marmigedeon 2 when they didn't have any at the super last week but it appeared to be that shop. Personally I hate the shit but, happy wife, and all that.

[MaxPenguin]

My guess is that he wanted to make a quick buck, but seriously how much did he think he was going to make?

[F5 Dave]

A Shitload. Ok sorry.

[caspernz]

4,800 rolls:laugh::laugh: That's gunna take more than his lifetime. What a :tugger:

Should be arrested for possessing crack paraphernalia :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

So you're saying we shouldn't go out for walks?

I don't need a car to take a walk ... <_<

[FJRider]

Ah yes, because we are world leaders (in the west) in having really low rates of Suicide, DV and Child Abuse...

The kiwi way to do anything ... must always be the easy way out. Fuck anybody else ... right .. ?? Let somebody else clean up the mess left behind.

Attitudes instilled by their parents.

You're a parent ... right ... ??

Talk to your kid's ... talk to them about it.

If YOU have the gut's to do it.



I'm guessing you haven't.

[FJRider]

Doesn't matter what the public thinks. The government is making new rules without consultation, getting the police to enforce them and there is fuck all you can do about it.

Whom would you think they should consult ??? The public .. ?? :scratch:

[onearmedbandit]

I don't need a car to take a walk ... <_<

Totally agreed. I think I may have misread your post about people walking on footpaths. My bad.

[FJRider]

Totally agreed. I think I may have misread your post about people walking on footpaths. My bad.

In Dunedin, I've found walking on the streets near my home (when I am home and not working) is safer than walking on the footpath. Much less traffic of all kinds. I go up and down a few local deserted street hills on my push bike. I avoid the crowds and busy times. And there's quite a few walkways in my area that suit the requirements of lockdown well.

[TheDemonLord]

The kiwi way to do anything ... must always be the easy way out. Fuck anybody else ... right .. ?? Let somebody else clean up the mess left behind.

Attitudes instilled by their parents.

You're a parent ... right ... ??

Talk to your kid's ... talk to them about it.

If YOU have the gut's to do it.



I'm guessing you haven't.

Are you high? Seriously? That rebuttal has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said.

Talk to my Kids about Suicide - Sure, one day, when they are old enough to understand, like say hitting double digits.

Point is, Mental health in this country has an abysmal track record. I'm pointing out that for some people 'getting away for a bit' - be that going for a Bush Walk, going Surfing, Even going for a simple Drive - is part of their way to manage their Mental health and keep themselves in check. All of those activities can easily be done in a way as to not violate 'social distancing' - and yet they aren't allowed, the reasons given as to why they aren't don't stack up with what is required. It is on that basis that the Policy and the Police should be questioned.

And then you come along with your 'Mental Health is overrated' - which (considering NZ's woeful track record) is just asinine at best and downright cunty at worst.

[mashman]

Food for thought (https://nz.yahoo.com/finance/news/slaughterhouse-shutdowns-fan-fears-fresh-203255239.html)

With fast food no longer available nor the slightly more upmarket actual food that's dressed with sauce and flavour combinations that dance like a dervil on yer tongue that's been crafted lovingly by someone who can cook, and with people still hungry and homeless, the only option available to some is to cull the herds so that space can be made for the next years food? We can't handle an abundance of food lol.

[FJRider]

Are you high? Seriously? That rebuttal has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said.



YOU mentioned the high suicide rate. Not ALL mental health suffers are suicidal.

[FJRider]

I'm pointing out that for some people 'getting away for a bit' - be that going for a Bush Walk, going Surfing, Even going for a simple Drive - is part of their way to manage their Mental health and keep themselves in check. All of those activities can easily be done in a way as to not violate 'social distancing' - and yet they aren't allowed, the reasons given as to why they aren't don't stack up with what is required. It is on that basis that the Policy and the Police should be questioned.


Unless it is YOU having mental health issues ... STAY THE FUCK AT HOME ... (and you said it was for YOUR mental health)

Social distancing is not the only reason some of those activities are not allowed. Risk of accidental need for rescue or assistance is. Putting others at risk.

[MaxPenguin]

Unless it is YOU having mental health issues ... STAY THE FUCK AT HOME ... (and you said it was for YOUR mental health)

Social distancing is not the only reason some of those activities are not allowed. Risk of accidental need for rescue or assistance is. Putting others at risk.

He knows all that, but just feels a need to post obvious stuff. Good for his mental health.

[FJRider]

He knows all that, but just feels a need to post obvious stuff. Good for his mental health.

Judging by the stuff he posts ... his mental health has suffered ... Quite some time ago. Or the rules don't apply to him.



Interestingly ... the known mental health sufferer's are staying home. And happily taking their (extra) medication.

Go figure ... :calm:

[Madness]

In Dunedin...

Have you moved?

[FJRider]

Have you moved?

Yep. Work on Stewart Island. Live in Dunedin.

Semi retired ... I work one week in two ... paid for both weeks.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Do you want to post up your CV so we know who you are?

Not much comprehension going on there. Keep rubbin your nub .

[Katman]

Not much comprehension going on there. Keep rubbin your nub .

That's poms for ya.

[flyingcrocodile46]

And - with respect as he's obviously intelligent - the OP has form on here for starting major shitfights and either walking or being pushed away.
Look at the Vaccination thread.

At this point in time any post pandemic scenario is premature.

You suggest I'm intelligent then appear to be suggesting that I needed to stick around wasting time on dipshits or had to run away from them when I had accomplished all I intended with my first post.

I wasn't telling people not to vaccinate, and even said it was ok if there was a real risk out there (like we have now), rather than being brain dead fuckwits queuing out of fear or obedience to buy a product that wasn't even required just to pad out the profits of companies who's primary products are medicines to cure the dear of fuck all.

It ain't in their interest to actually find real cures /solutions to real diseases/problems. They make their money out of placebos, snake oil and long term treatments to make you more comfortable as they suck your money out of you. If they were harvesting brains they wouldn't want to know you.

[Berries]

Not much comprehension going on there. Keep rubbin your nub .
My comprehension is fine. What I couldn't understand is why someone would put up one long post of their hypothetical thinking, follow that up with an admitted cut and paste job and then book end that with an offer of a confidential chat if anyone needed to talk about any concerns that you may have raised.

I figured with that offer you might be a qualified counsellor but you really need to say that, hence the request for more information if you want to be taken seriously. Judging by your response to Grumph above you are quite clearly not even close to being in that field.

That only leaves one option, and to be honest I thought grooming was illegal.

[FJRider]

It's a perfect time to switch to a resource based economy. Because stuff.

Nah. The rich want to get richer ... and the rest just want more.

And no job is pointless if somebody is willing to pay money for somebody to do it it. A large part of the NZ economy is based on luxury goods and services. Even the lower income families have their luxury items they just can't do without.

Some jobs may be thankless ... but definitely not pointless. Somebody wins ... but it's seldom the worker.


And the one's calling the shots in the coming year ... will be the one's with money.

[FJRider]

Not much comprehension going on there. Keep rubbin your nub .

Where did you copy and paste from ... so I'll know what site's to avoid.

Looks like you already had a rub ... :shifty:

[mashman]

... and the rest just want more.

I've found that the rest predominantly want better... and that does not equate more.



And the one's calling the shots in the coming year ... will be the one's with money.

And they say that the rest just want more :laugh:

"Abandon hope all ye who enter here."

[TheDemonLord]

YOU mentioned the high suicide rate. Not ALL mental health suffers are suicidal.

You are aware that within the spectrum of people with Mental Health issues, there is an extremely tight overlap with people who either attempt or complete Suicide?

I never implied, infered or suggested that all people who had Mental health problems are suicidal.


Unless it is YOU having mental health issues ... STAY THE FUCK AT HOME ... (and you said it was for YOUR mental health)

Social distancing is not the only reason some of those activities are not allowed. Risk of accidental need for rescue or assistance is. Putting others at risk.

No, I didn't.

I'm not sure what you are reading, but by the rebuttals you make it bears little resemblance to what I post.

Like I said - Are you high?


Judging by the stuff he posts ... his mental health has suffered ... Quite some time ago. Or the rules don't apply to him.

My Mental Health is fine, I'm not going to lie the past few weeks have been difficult - however you seem to have great trouble understanding this - I've followed the Rules, I've stayed local, Gone out for Exercise (as we are allowed to) and maintained Social Distancing.

I am questioning that there are a number of additional activities which do not violate any of the social distancing mandates and thus pose no risk to spreading the disease by the vectors that we understand it is transmitted but have nonetheless been banned. That Ban, represents an infringement of Civil Liberties (something I hold in high regard, and you should too), without a legitimate justification. That part is what concerns me.


and no, I don't buy the 'but you might need rescuing argument' - The numbers, assuming the worst case scenario are nowhere near sufficient to have any large scale impact.

[TheDemonLord]

It ain't in their interest to actually find real cures /solutions to real diseases/problems.

Actually it is.

The longer you stay alive, the more likely you are to develop a myriad of age-related ailments that cost lots and lots to treat.

Someone who drops dead of a Heart Attack at age 50, is nowhere near as profitable (accepting all of your premises) as someone who is 99 and has to take a multitude of Pills each day to stave off the inevitable.

If anything, given the target demographic who are most at risk to Coronavirus (Old age people with pre-existing health conditions) - 'Big Pharma' actually has a massively vested interest in finding a cure for it, it's killing off their biggest customer base.

[Gearup]

and no, I don't buy the 'but you might need rescuing argument' - The numbers, assuming the worst case scenario are nowhere near sufficient to have any large scale impact.


Where are you getting those numbers from?

[TheDemonLord]

Where are you getting those numbers from?

You take the number of people that would normally engage in those activities, then you factor in the percentage reduction based on similar activities.

For example - when walking along the beach - before Lockdown, there'd be about 200 or so people in total, after lockdown, about 10.

So, a 95% reduction, for an activity you are allowed to do. Take that same reduction, and it gives a figure of 9/10ths of fuck-all people.

If you really want to get Meta, though you can assume that those fractions of the group that would still want to go and Hunt, Swim in the Ocean, Surf etc. are most likely to be amongst the most dedicated individuals to that pursuit, so you can make an inference that with the weekend-warriors filtered out, the average skill level amongst those still doing the activity will be much higher and therefore the likelyhood of needing rescuing is even smaller.

Or are you suggesting that if the Police say that you can go Hunt now, that every forest will be filled to the brim with every single hunter in all of NZ?

[sidecar bob]

You take the number of people that would normally engage in those activities, then you factor in the percentage reduction based on similar activities.

For example - when walking along the beach - before Lockdown, there'd be about 200 or so people in total, after lockdown, about 10.

So, a 95% reduction, for an activity you are allowed to do. Take that same reduction, and it gives a figure of 9/10ths of fuck-all people.

If you really want to get Meta, though you can assume that those fractions of the group that would still want to go and Hunt, Swim in the Ocean, Surf etc. are most likely to be amongst the most dedicated individuals to that pursuit, so you can make an inference that with the weekend-warriors filtered out, the average skill level amongst those still doing the activity will be much higher and therefore the likelyhood of needing rescuing is even smaller.

Or are you suggesting that if the Police say that you can go Hunt now, that every forest will be filled to the brim with every single hunter in all of NZ?
And I see mother Jacinda gave us a quick advance telling off on the news last night "now is not the time to be taking up new pursuits" what about learning the bagpipes?

[jasonu]

And I see mother Jacinda gave us a quick advance telling off on the news last night "now is not the time to be taking up new pursuits" what about learning the bagpipes?

Or the skinflute

[MaxPenguin]

I see in the states that there are protest marches in several cities, protesting the lockdown. Good way to spread c-19.

[Gearup]

Or are you suggesting that if the Police say that you can go Hunt now, that every forest will be filled to the brim with every single hunter in all of NZ?


Not at all because most hunters are doing their bit and staying at home according to the Game Animal Council.

However, lets just take tramping as an example: In 2017, according to the Mountain Safety Council just over 1.5 million people went tramping , of that there were 936,367 New Zealanders.

Of the total, 4020 needed medical assistance while 524 involved Search and Rescue services. Another 5 died and body recovery was needed.

So cutting out the overseas visitor component, there's still a good number of people out there that needed assistance. Even in a month.

[TheDemonLord]

Not at all because most hunters are doing their bit and staying at home according to the Game Animal Council.

However, lets just take tramping as an example: In 2017, according to the Mountain Safety Council just over 1.5 million people went tramping , of that there were 936,367 New Zealanders.

Of the total, 4020 needed medical assistance while 524 involved Search and Rescue services. Another 5 died and body recovery was needed.

So cutting out the overseas visitor component, there's still a good number of people out there that needed assistance. Even in a month.

Cool - now factor in a 95% reduction.

That's 200 that needs Medical assistance, 26 Search and rescue services - and no deaths. For an entire year. So divide that figure by 12 - that's 2 Search and rescues and 16 people needing Medical assistance

Hardly a massive imposition on our public services. And remarkably similar to the 9 Tenths of fuck-all figure.

But again, consider that the only people going out are those who really really really really love tramping, so likely to be experienced Outdoors-types, as opposed to the weekend warriors (who tend to make up the majority of those needing assistance).

[JATZ]

Cool - now factor in a 95% reduction.

That's 200 that needs Medical assistance, 26 Search and rescue services - and no deaths. For an entire year. So divide that figure by 12 - that's 2 Search and rescues and 16 people needing Medical assistance

Hardly a massive imposition on our public services. And remarkably similar to the 9 Tenths of fuck-all figure.

But again, consider that the only people going out are those who really really really really love tramping, so likely to be experienced Outdoors-types, as opposed to the weekend warriors (who tend to make up the majority of those needing assistance).
So only 200 need medical assistance and 26 need SARS. How many people are involved in that ? How many people are breaking lockdown to take care of someone who thought only of themselves? And potentially the rescuers/medical staff putting people in their "bubble" at risk ? Admittedly, there's only a tiny chance of getting the virus, but is it worth taking the risk?
Yes it sucks to have your personal freedom taken away, but it's not forever.

[Gearup]

Cool - now factor in a 95% reduction.

That's 200 that needs Medical assistance, 26 Search and rescue services - and no deaths. For an entire year. So divide that figure by 12 - that's 2 Search and rescues and 16 people needing Medical assistance

Hardly a massive imposition on our public services. And remarkably similar to the 9 Tenths of fuck-all figure.

But again, consider that the only people going out are those who really really really really love tramping, so likely to be experienced Outdoors-types, as opposed to the weekend warriors (who tend to make up the majority of those needing assistance).


Nah, let's be sensible and now factor in all the other outdoor activities that cause emergency services to be activated.

Here's a clue, ones we're not permitted to do currently...

[TheDemonLord]

Nah, let's be sensible and now factor in all the other outdoor activities that cause emergency services to be activated.

Here's a clue, ones we're not permitted to do currently...

Sure.

Still going to be fuck-all in terms of numbers.

And again, let's use another activity that was banned - Ocean Swimming - who make up the majority of people who need to be rescued? It's not people who are training for the Ocean Swim Series of Triathletes or similar, it's people who don't know how to Swim.

[TheDemonLord]

So only 200 need medical assistance and 26 need SARS. How many people are involved in that ? How many people are breaking lockdown to take care of someone who thought only of themselves? And potentially the rescuers/medical staff putting people in their "bubble" at risk ? Admittedly, there's only a tiny chance of getting the virus, but is it worth taking the risk?

It's even less than the 200 figure - but is it worth taking the Risk? Well, I'd say yes. Because the Risk when properly viewed is absolutely minimal, will have no overall impact to the nations ability to help those and need it.

Furthermore - coming back to the demographic of who is at Risk:

How many 70+ year olds, with underlying Medical conditions do you think are going to be Hiking, Surfing, Hunting etc. Sure, there are some very fit and active elderly people (good on them), but how many are active to that degree, whilst also suffering from a complication?


Yes it sucks to have your personal freedom taken away, but it's not forever.

2 Words:

Ratchet Effect.

[pritch]

I see in the states that there are protest marches in several cities, protesting the lockdown. Good way to spread c-19.


Some interesting photos from those. A bigger collection of drop kick fuck ups would be hard to find. Interesting selection of "signs" too: confederate flags, swastikas, and Trump 2020 posters.

[Gearup]

Sure.

Still going to be fuck-all in terms of numbers.

And again, let's use another activity that was banned - Ocean Swimming - who make up the majority of people who need to be rescued? It's not people who are training for the Ocean Swim Series of Triathletes or similar, it's people who don't know how to Swim.


So, show us some of your numbers if it's "fuck -all" then.

The issue of safety is about all the outdoor activities normally carried out under non-lockdown circumstances. I'd suggest you're down playing it all to fit your apparent loss of civil rights.

Incidently, a pandemic is a very justifiable reason to be under lockdown and it's covered by a number of Acts like the Civil Defence and Emergency Management Act 2002. It is however temporary until, and this is the important bit, the emergency doesn't exist.

[MaxPenguin]

It's even less than the 200 figure - but is it worth taking the Risk? Well, I'd say yes. Because the Risk when properly viewed is absolutely minimal, will have no overall impact to the nations ability to help those and need it.

Furthermore - coming back to the demographic of who is at Risk:

How many 70+ year olds, with underlying Medical conditions do you think are going to be Hiking, Surfing, Hunting etc. Sure, there are some very fit and active elderly people (good on them), but how many are active to that degree, whilst also suffering from a complication?



2 Words:

Ratchet Effect.

Have you used up your daily word quota yet?

Here's hoping....

[MaxPenguin]

Some interesting photos from those. A bigger collection of drop kick fuck ups would be hard to find. Interesting selection of "signs" too: confederate flags, swastikas, and Trump 2020 posters.

There is a fair bit of social media fuckwitted threats to protest here in NZ too. Was initially hilarious following them, but it's now starting to get on my nerves, but oddly addictive for some reason.
I actually want them to do it, will show them up for the sad lowlifes they are.

[Gearup]

There is a fair bit of social media fuckwitted threats to protest here in NZ too. Was initially hilarious following them, but it's now starting to get on my nerves, but oddly addictive for some reason.
I actually want them to do it, will show them up for the sad lowlifes they are.


What are your best picks?

Looks like it's lets-try-to-destroy-the 5G installation time as well. Several attempts have been made.

[MaxPenguin]

What are your best picks?

Looks like it's lets-try-to-destroy-the 5G installation time as well. Several attempts have been made.

If on Facebook go to sue grey. Some sort of ambulance chasing lawyer wannabe protestor.

[JATZ]

It's even less than the 200 figure - but is it worth taking the Risk? Well, I'd say yes. Because the Risk when properly viewed is absolutely minimal, will have no overall impact to the nations ability to help those and need it.

Furthermore - coming back to the demographic of who is at Risk:

How many 70+ year olds, with underlying Medical conditions do you think are going to be Hiking, Surfing, Hunting etc. Sure, there are some very fit and active elderly people (good on them), but how many are active to that degree, whilst also suffering from a complication?



2 Words:

Ratchet Effect.

It's not just the +70 yo group...
I've niked this from somewhere else. The numbers are hypothetical, but that seems normal. However, its the last bit thats more of a concern.


"It's not about controlling the population, it's about controlling a disease that might kill 3 to 10% of those it infects, that's highly contagious and that, if it doesn't just kill you, leaves you with high odds of losing lung capacity for the rest of your life..."

[caspernz]

What are your best picks?

Looks like it's lets-try-to-destroy-the 5G installation time as well. Several attempts have been made.

The 5G thing is insane. In Europe there's been a spate of these going on for weeks, the sheer stupidity of some folks is baffling. On the same IQ level as the anti vaxxers :facepalm:

[Gearup]

If on Facebook go to sue grey. Some sort of ambulance chasing lawyer wannabe protestor.


Ah yes, the NZ Outdoors Party...

I've read a while ago she had an affair with the enquiry lawyer in the Scampi fisheries corruption case. It was described as a "sex for questions case".

[Gearup]

The 5G thing is insane. In Europe there's been a spate of these going on for weeks, the sheer stupidity of some folks is baffling. On the same IQ level as the anti vaxxers :facepalm:


There's a video of some people trying to burn down an NZ 5G site which was doing the rounds recently.

[Laava]

Ah yes, the NZ Outdoors Party...I've read a while ago she had an affair with the enquiry lawyer in the Scampi fisheries corruption case. It was described as a "sex for questions case".
I hope he made her cry.

[MaxPenguin]

Ah yes, the NZ Outdoors Party...

I've read a while ago she had an affair with the enquiry lawyer in the Scampi fisheries corruption case. It was described as a "sex for questions case".

She is anti vax, covid19 and 5g are related, anti 1080, you name it. Her mo is to bait her followers in the hope they do something stupid so she can represent them, or talk them into representing them in some unwinnable constitutional court procedure.
Her sheep lap it up.

[pritch]

The 5G thing is insane.

I see on Twitter yesterday that some dude has named his home network "5G - Covid19 - Mind control"

A bit long but I like his style whoever he is. My network name was intended to have a similar effect, but is a lot shorter in case my network fucks up and I have to start typing it repeatedly.

[george formby]

The 5G thing is insane. In Europe there's been a spate of these going on for weeks, the sheer stupidity of some folks is baffling. On the same IQ level as the anti vaxxers :facepalm:

Indeed.

A wee dickie bird up north told me what happened to the - non 5g, booster- tower, being built up the road.

Workers had left a number of 20ltr water containers at the base of the tower to assist with finishing the concrete.

The perpetrators piled wood around the base and doused it with the liquid from the containers thinking it was diesel....

They had to come back the following night with their own accelerant. :tugger:

[MaxPenguin]

Indeed.

A wee dickie bird up north told me what happened to the - non 5g, booster- tower, being built up the road.

Workers had left a number of 20ltr water containers at the base of the tower to assist with finishing the concrete.

The perpetrators piled wood around the base and doused it with the liquid from the containers thinking it was diesel....

They had to come back the following night with their own accelerant. :tugger:

Not a braincell amongst them...

[sidecar bob]

There's a video of some people trying to burn down an NZ 5G site which was doing the rounds recently.
How did they manage to do that without a phone signal?
Hypocrites.

[TheDemonLord]

So, show us some of your numbers if it's "fuck -all" then.

I have already done so, even if I remove the 95% reduction - it's still fuck-all, when factoring the no tourists and a single months worth of call outs. That's also without factoring in the raise in the average skill level by having those who are most likely to need assistance not being out-and-about


The issue of safety is about all the outdoor activities normally carried out under under non-lockdown circumstances. I'd suggest you're down playing it all to fit your apparent loss of civil rights.

Of course, I'm not saying there isn't a risk, I'm saying that the justification is massively over-stated, there's a burden of proof that's not being met by the Government for this decision.

When it comes to Civil Liberties, and especially in the face of a disaster, We have an obligation to make sure that any emergency power both has a sunset date and is justified.

On both of these, the standard IMO is not met.


Incidently, a pandemic is a very justifiable reason to be under lockdown and it's covered by a number of Acts like the Civil Defence and Emergency Management Act 2002. It is however temporary until, and this is the important bit, the emergency doesn't exist.

There's some discussion about that, as to whether those Acts cover this - however, I'm not making a Legal argument - I'm saying the Government is curtailing certain activities on flimsy justification.

As an example - under Level 3, hunting is banned but Mountain biking isn't - which one has the higher Injury rate and so by your reasoning shouldn't be allowed...




It's not just the +70 yo group...
I've niked this from somewhere else. The numbers are hypothetical, but that seems normal. However, its the last bit thats more of a concern.


"It's not about controlling the population, it's about controlling a disease that might kill 3 to 10% of those it infects, that's highly contagious and that, if it doesn't just kill you, leaves you with high odds of losing lung capacity for the rest of your life..."

You got a Sauce for that? It seems odd on the face of it (not saying it's wrong) that they are predicting life-long effects for a disease that is only 5 months old....




Have you used up your daily word quota yet?

Here's hoping....

Pfft not even Close...

[Gearup]

I have already done so, even if I remove the 95% reduction - it's still fuck-all, when factoring the no tourists and a single months worth of call outs. That's also without factoring in the raise in the average skill level by having those who are most likely to need assistance not being out-and-about

Of course, I'm not saying there isn't a risk, I'm saying that the justification is massively over-stated, there's a burden of proof that's not being met by the Government for this decision.

When it comes to Civil Liberties, and especially in the face of a disaster, We have an obligation to make sure that any emergency power both has a sunset date and is justified.

On both of these, the standard IMO is not met.



There's some discussion about that, as to whether those Acts cover this - however, I'm not making a Legal argument - I'm saying the Government is curtailing certain activities on flimsy justification.

As an example - under Level 3, hunting is banned but Mountain biking isn't - which one has the higher Injury rate and so by your reasoning shouldn't be allowed...

You got a Sauce for that? It seems odd on the face of it (not saying it's wrong) that they are predicting life-long effects for a disease that is only 5 months old....


Pfft not even Close...

1:Figures on all the activities combined not just the tramping. Refer to my post #109

2:Once again,the powers applicable to the emergency end when the emergency ends. That's how it works under the appropriate Acts.

3:I've never referenced any activity in Level 3, so your reference to Level 3 mountain biking is irrelevant. It's all about level 4 which is the applicable one now.

[russd7]

it was stated on the update today that hunting was added without thought and is being reviewed, i would suggest that it needs to be looked at very quickly and some parameters put in that don't stop it but maybe restrict a little,
opening weekend is looming very quickly and i would say there will be quite a few that will just say F**K the lock down and go anyway.
given that opening weekend has more importance to a lot than mothers day, i would suggest that the powers that be should not f**k with opening weekend.

i am not a hunter and have never participated in opening weekend but do understand the significance to some.

[Kickaha]

Some interesting photos from those. A bigger collection of drop kick fuck ups would be hard to find. Interesting selection of "signs" too: confederate flags, swastikas, and Trump 2020 posters.

The one I saw there were quite a few in body armour with there ever present AR15 ready to defend their freedoms, America, FUCK YEAH

[caspernz]

The one I saw there were quite a few in body armour with there ever present AR15 ready to defend their freedoms, America, FUCK YEAH

Always used to be live ammo and alcohol don't mix, seems live ammo and stupidity are just as dangerous :brick:

[MaxPenguin]

it was stated on the update today that hunting was added without thought and is being reviewed, i would suggest that it needs to be looked at very quickly and some parameters put in that don't stop it but maybe restrict a little,
opening weekend is looming very quickly and i would say there will be quite a few that will just say F**K the lock down and go anyway.
given that opening weekend has more importance to a lot than mothers day, i would suggest that the powers that be should not f**k with opening weekend.

i am not a hunter and have never participated in opening weekend but do understand the significance to some.

A lot of us are missing out on shit, why are hunters so entitled?

[Katman]

A lot of us are missing out on shit, why are hunters so entitled?

Why do you see it as a competition?

[sidecar bob]

A lot of us are missing out on shit, why are hunters so entitled?

And stupid old Dover Samuels giving the nation a proper good telling off on the news.
Apparently the whanau will be breaking the rules to go fishing.

[James Deuce]

A lot of us are missing out on shit, why are hunters so entitled?

Because they have to cull deer numbers before it becomes obvious that they are shepherding deer numbers so they can have fun hunting rather than attempting to exterminate an introduced pest.

[Katman]

...why are hunters so entitled?

Makes a change from it being motorcyclists.

[pritch]

You got a Sauce for that?



Mint sauce? Cranberry? Or a cheeky little apple number?

[Katman]

Mint sauce? Cranberry? Or a cheeky little apple number?

Clearly you got the joke.

[TheDemonLord]

1:Figures on all the activities combined not just the tramping. Refer to my post #109

All activities? That's a rather broad term. Here's the thing - let's say I post up figures for the top 10 outdoors activities that people are upset about, apply the same Formula.

We both know that the end result, factoring a significant reduction (70%, 80% or 95% - whatever you are happy with), the length of time, the absence of any tourists etc. etc. is going to leave a net figure that is small.

Exceptionally small.

As an example - Ocean swimming - 2018/2019 figures were ~1,700 rescues. If we remove 35% due to no Tourists, that's ~1,200 (using Lazy maths), then divide by 12 - that's 100 - now let's divide that by 95% - that's 5.

Now let's account for the fact that the most likely demographic that would be going out to Swim in the sea during a lockdown are experienced Swimmers/Athletes (not saying they never get into trouble - but y'know, stats n stuff) - that leads to 0.

Also add in it's no longer Summer.

Rinse and repeat for any other activity you care to name.


2:Once again,the powers applicable to the emergency end when the emergency ends. That's how it works under the appropriate Acts.

Sometimes they do and sometimes Governments have a habit of using situations to legislate powers that otherwise would never have been granted. And to be frank, I don't trust this Government nor do I trust the senior Police Management.

Feel free to rip my argument to shreds on that point, but never-the-less, I can think of multiple instances both in NZ and overseas were Emergency Powers were granted and weren't wholesale revoked, with some 'systems, procedures and structures' being left intact.


3:I've never referenced any activity in Level 3, so your reference to Level 3 mountain biking is irrelevant. It's all about level 4 which is the applicable one now.

I should have perhaps clarified, I was using it to highlight that the claim 'it's being evaluated on risk of injury requiring 3rd party intervention' is demonstrably not true.

[TheDemonLord]

Mint sauce? Cranberry? Or a cheeky little apple number?

A Nice homemade BBQ Sauce.

I'm interested to see where the claim of permanent Lung Damage comes from - Certainly a possibility (some respiratory diseases that can be fatal leave scarring on the Alveoli), but to make a claim of life-long effects when it's such a new disease, on the face of it, seems a little - presumptive?

[TheDemonLord]

A lot of us are missing out on shit, why are hunters so entitled?

For a start they've been shat on, quite epicly by this Government and when they see that yet again, despite being able to meet all the requirements of Social Isolation, they are still being told No, then yes - they are justifiably upset.

It's not Entitlement. I've tooted the horn for swimming in the Sea, hiking in the Bush and a myriad of other activities that are done in isolation.

For some as well, Hunting is a regular part of their Food supply, rather than spend hundreds at the supermarket for Meat, they go out, bag an Animal etc. etc. If they have their budget worked out on that premise or if being out of work is tightening the purse strings - is being concerned for that really 'entitled'?

TL;DR - I think most hunters just want to be Left Alone, to do their thing.

[Gearup]

All activities? That's a rather broad term. Here's the thing - let's say I post up figures for the top 10 outdoors activities that people are upset about, apply the same Formula.

We both know that the end result, factoring a significant reduction (70%, 80% or 95% - whatever you are happy with), the length of time, the absence of any tourists etc. etc. is going to leave a net figure that is small.

Exceptionally small.

As an example - Ocean swimming - 2018/2019 figures were ~1,700 rescues. If we remove 35% due to no Tourists, that's ~1,200 (using Lazy maths), then divide by 12 - that's 100 - now let's divide that by 95% - that's 5.

Now let's account for the fact that the most likely demographic that would be going out to Swim in the sea during a lockdown are experienced Swimmers/Athletes (not saying they never get into trouble - but y'know, stats n stuff) - that leads to 0.

Also add in it's no longer Summer.

Rinse and repeat for any other activity you care to name.



Sometimes they do and sometimes Governments have a habit of using situations to legislate powers that otherwise would never have been granted. And to be frank, I don't trust this Government nor do I trust the senior Police Management.

Feel free to rip my argument to shreds on that point, but never-the-less, I can think of multiple instances both in NZ and overseas were Emergency Powers were granted and weren't wholesale revoked, with some 'systems, procedures and structures' being left intact.



I should have perhaps clarified, I was using it to highlight that the claim 'it's being evaluated on risk of injury requiring 3rd party intervention' is demonstrably not true.

Yep all activities and this is the second time I've had to draw your attention to it. This time refer to the second line of post #113. Why are the Government not permittting it all? I'd say it's to keep people safe.
And don't waste my time with your Top Ten red herring.

[TheDemonLord]

Yep all activities and this is the second time I've had to draw your attention to it.

All is an infinite and regressive measure. Let's do the Hypothetical, I'll list a bunch of activities, pull the numbers, run the maths, show that the number is in the single or low double digits and so as to be so negligable as to be irrelevant, You'll engage in a series of what-about-isms etc.

Using an example you provided and one I provided, both sets of numbers show the expected numbers to be tiny, even an aggregate across all activities that are enjoyed in isolation but could require rescuing, will still be miniscule.


This time refer to the second line of post #113. Why are the Government not permittting it all? I'd say it's to keep people safe.

I agree that's why they say they are doing it, but when the justification is interrogated, it simply doesn't add up, on multiple levels. And I happen to have an issue when a civil liberty is taken away on flimsy justification, even in a scenario such as this.


And don't waste my time with your Top Ten red herring.

I didn't - in fact you've proved my reluctance rather nicely - that by requesting 'all' - you'll just continually move the Goal Posts.

[FJRider]

You are aware that within the spectrum of people with Mental Health issues, there is an extremely tight overlap with people who either attempt or complete Suicide?

I never implied, infered or suggested that all people who had Mental health problems are suicidal.

I mentioned Mental Health and your post in reply was to tell me about the high NZ suicide rate. I would regard that as being "Inferred" ..,. <_<


No, I didn't.

I'm not sure what you are reading, but by the rebuttals you make it bears little resemblance to what I post.

Like I said - Are you high?

Sounds like you ...


... could be purely for Mental health to take an hour away from young children who are crawling up the walls bored out of their minds and aren't able to comprehend why they can't do any of their usual activities ...

But it wasn't all about you ... right .. ?? :shifty:


and no, I don't buy the 'but you might need rescuing argument' - The numbers, assuming the worst case scenario are nowhere near sufficient to have any large scale impact.

Such are things at the moment ... for now ... them's the rules ... :blank:

[Gearup]

All is an infinite and regressive measure. Let's do the Hypothetical, I'll list a bunch of activities, pull the numbers, run the maths, show that the number is in the single or low double digits and so as to be so negligable as to be irrelevant, You'll engage in a series of what-about-isms etc.

Using an example you provided and one I provided, both sets of numbers show the expected numbers to be tiny, even an aggregate across all activities that are enjoyed in isolation but could require rescuing, will still be miniscule.



I agree that's why they say they are doing it, but when the justification is interrogated, it simply doesn't add up, on multiple levels. And I happen to have an issue when a civil liberty is taken away on flimsy justification, even in a scenario such as this.



I didn't - in fact you've proved my reluctance rather nicely - that by requesting 'all' - you'll just continually move the Goal Posts.


Once again, because you obviously don't get it, the Government made the ruling about all the activities. I suggest you talk to them about how it's infinite and regressive.

I've already given you the reason why I think they did it. See ya!

[FJRider]

Let's do the Hypothetical, I'll list a bunch of activities, pull the numbers, run the maths, show that the number is in the single or low double digits and so as to be so negligable as to be irrelevant, You'll engage in a series of what-about-isms etc.

Take a look at the annual road toll's ... go back as far as you like. ALL those thought they had a "negligible" risk of an accident ... injury ... or death.

But they died anyway.

The gamble of risk is your's ... but if your "risk" involves the possibility putting others (or yourself) at risk ... expect some (the ones that might be your rescue force) might have taken a different view of your risk.

And take a look at the road toll during lockdown. See who died and why.


I didn't - in fact you've proved my reluctance rather nicely - that by requesting 'all' - you'll just continually move the Goal Posts.

Kick in the other direction ... you're scoring own goals ...



(get spell check ... makes you look like a stupid prick without it )

[MaxPenguin]

For a start they've been shat on, quite epicly by this Government and when they see that yet again, despite being able to meet all the requirements of Social Isolation, they are still being told No, then yes - they are justifiably upset.

It's not Entitlement. I've tooted the horn for swimming in the Sea, hiking in the Bush and a myriad of other activities that are done in isolation.

For some as well, Hunting is a regular part of their Food supply, rather than spend hundreds at the supermarket for Meat, they go out, bag an Animal etc. etc. If they have their budget worked out on that premise or if being out of work is tightening the purse strings - is being concerned for that really 'entitled'?

TL;DR - I think most hunters just want to be Left Alone, to do their thing.

How have hunters been shat on?

And don't make me laugh about food gathering, they can change their ways for a bit, just like everyone else. And the argument about hunting to gather food to feed the family is a cop out. I don't think hunting for meat is all that cost effective once you add up all the costs e.g. rifles, ammo, dog upkeep, Hilux., fuel etc. Yes its a recreation as well, but, again. Its not for long.

[Berries]

TL;DR - I think most hunters just want to be Left Alone, to do their thing.
Don't we all.

[jasonu]

And stupid old Dover Samuels giving the nation a proper good telling off on the news.
Apparently the whanau will be breaking the rules to go fishing.

Why do the maoris think they are so entitled?

[MaxPenguin]

Why do the maoris think they are so entitled?

The article with dover Samuels was referring to people who lived in remote areas accessed only by boat who wanted to fish..

[pritch]

It appears someone is having difficulty grasping the basic concept of the Government's policy. It's quite simple really, it's stay home.

If you don't have to leave the house for employment or other essential business you stay home. As simple as that is, there will no doubt still be those who have difficulty understanding it.

Level three will be more relaxed. This morning I saw that described as,
"Like level 4, but with fish and chips."

[sidecar bob]

The article with dover Samuels was referring to people who lived in remote areas accessed only by boat who wanted to fish..

Yeah, he made it very clear that "it's those bloody jaffas that come up from Auckland causing all the trouble up here"
He seemed all fired up & angry over fuck all.
Imagine if an Aucklander got on the news all angry like & said, "it's those niggas coming down from northland causing all the problems"

[MaxPenguin]

Yeah, he made it very clear that "it's those bloody jaffas that come up from Auckland causing all the trouble up here"
He seemed all fired up & angry over fuck all.
Imagine if an Aucklander got on the news all angry like & said, "it's those niggas coming down from northland causing all the problems"

Jaffa is a multi racial term for Aucklanders.

[sidecar bob]

Jaffa is a multi racial term for Aucklanders.

It's also a derogatory term, like nigga.

[MaxPenguin]

It's also a derogatory term, like nigga.

Fair call....

[husaberg]

Jaffa is a multi racial term for Aucklanders.


It's also a derogatory term, like nigga.


but its one that has nothing to do with race but simple geography, regardless of race
I can't see why bob struggles though, one a minor offence based on geopgraphy the other is a highly offensive term that harks back to slavery of an entire race.
whilst both might be considered derogatory the other is highly offensive to a large proportion of the world population and its use in this case by bb was purely designed to offend.

[sidecar bob]

but its one that has nothing to do with race but simple geography, regardless of race
I can't see why bob struggles though, one a minor offence based on geopgraphy the other is a highly offensive term that harks back to slavery of an entire race.
whilst both might be considered derogatory the other is highly offensive to a large proportion of the world population and its use in this case by bb was purely designed to offend.

I struggle with Dover being a double standard hypocrite. That's all.
He's happy to dish out derogatory terms & show no respect to a large group with no repercussions.
He was all fired up & full of his own shit.
I though, hes too old to be doing meth.
I guess you don't remember the Paul Holmes "cheeky darkie" incident?

[pritch]

It's also a derogatory term, like nigga.

Some of those described as Jaffas are a tad over sensitive. A couple from north of the Bombays were passing through Taranaki and stopped at Stratford for a flat white. When the coffee was served there was a jaffa on each saucer. They reportedly took this as a personal insult. It wasn't, it was just how that shop served coffee.

[slofox]

Some of those described as Jaffas are a tad over sensitive. A couple from north of the Bombays were passing through Taranaki and stopped at Stratford for a flat white. When the coffee was served there was a jaffa on each saucer. They reportedly took this as a personal insult. It wasn't, it was just how that shop served coffee.

Thin skins, some of them eh?

[MaxPenguin]

Some of those described as Jaffas are a tad over sensitive. A couple from north of the Bombays were passing through Taranaki and stopped at Stratford for a flat white. When the coffee was served there was a jaffa on each saucer. They reportedly took this as a personal insult. It wasn't, it was just how that shop served coffee.

Like the complaint to the race relations people by an Asian customer of a courier company. The courier signed "covid19" due to contactless policies. The customer took it as a racist dig due to where covid19 started.

[Gearup]

Some of those described as Jaffas are a tad over sensitive. A couple from north of the Bombays were passing through Taranaki and stopped at Stratford for a flat white. When the coffee was served there was a jaffa on each saucer. They reportedly took this as a personal insult. It wasn't, it was just how that shop served coffee.


That's absolutely disgusting...............fancy mixing flat white coffee and a jaffa.

[Gearup]

I struggle with Dover being a double standard hypocrite. That's all.
He's happy to dish out derogatory terms & show no respect to a large group with no repercussions.
He was all fired up & full of his own shit.
I though, hes too old to be doing meth.
I guess you don't remember the Paul Holmes "cheeky darkie" incident?


Don't forget Paul Henry's "dipshit/dickshit" incidents with Delhi's Chief Minister...

[pritch]

That's absolutely disgusting...............fancy mixing flat white coffee and a jaffa.

Various items arrive on saucers to accompany coffee, possibly emulating the biscotti idea. Biscotti, unlike the little chocolate fish and other msc chocolate items, doesn't melt. Neither does the chocolate in a Jaffa, well not that we can see.

[husaberg]

I struggle with Dover being a double standard hypocrite. That's all.
He's happy to dish out derogatory terms & show no respect to a large group with no repercussions.
He was all fired up & full of his own shit.
I though, hes too old to be doing meth.
I guess you don't remember the Paul Holmes "cheeky darkie" incident?

i remember, it was over the top for what was a comment designed to gain attention and not meant to be derogatory i also remember Dover getting pissed and peeing in a hotel corridor.
he was often an embarrassment to both Maori and politicians. He no doubt still is.
He was likely, like a lot of his other contemporaries an alcoholic.

https://youtu.be/CRRwYuYnMbk
Along with lange, Peters and numerous others, including from memory Paul Homes
i was neither a fan of either but don't confuse that with my opinion that it being okay to throw out racist terms in reference to a comment a Maori happens to make, just because he is a maori and saying stuff.

i recall he said this

Mr Samuels, a former Maori Affairs Minister, said he remained opposed to dedicated council seats for Maori even though the election had delivered a regional council without tangata whenua representation. He believed councillors should be elected solely according to their track record

[Gearup]

Various items arrive on saucers to accompany coffee, possibly emulating the biscotti idea. Biscotti, unlike the little chocolate fish and other msc chocolate items, doesn't melt. Neither does the chocolate in a Jaffa, well not that we can see.


Yeah understood. I think my attempt at humour was a fail there pritch.

[FJRider]

Makes a change from it being motorcyclists.

We're still entitled ... try to keep up ... :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

Imagine if an Aucklander got on the news all angry like & said, "it's those niggas coming down from northland causing all the problems"

At least at the moment ... they're not moaning about the traffic chaos and congestion ... :innocent:

Can we have a lockdown for just Auckland after Covid 19 is done and dealt with ... ??? No more traffic issues.

Ok it might piss a few jaffa's off ... but in the interest of National amusement ... do we really care .. ??

[FJRider]

It's also a derogatory term, like nigga.

No ... it's a large oval orange thick-skinned sweet (previously made in Dunedin) ... "Rangitoto Yank" was derogatory ... :shifty:

[FJRider]

Some of those described as Jaffas are a tad over sensitive. A couple from north of the Bombays were passing through Taranaki and stopped at Stratford for a flat white. When the coffee was served there was a jaffa on each saucer. They reportedly took this as a personal insult. It wasn't, it was just how that shop served coffee.

Similar in context to "Queen street farmers" ... :shutup:

[pritch]

Yeah understood. I think my attempt at humour was a fail there pritch.

Nah. It was OK, but I also remembered the minor mess a melted chocolate fish made.

[FJRider]

Fair call....

Calling somebody an idiot is ok ... calling them a Jaffa is not .. ??

Racist comments are based on race creed or colour. I class the term Jaffa in the same class of "affection" as Dork ... ;)

[sidecar bob]

Calling somebody an idiot is ok ... calling them a Jaffa is not .. ??

Racist comments are based on race creed or colour. I class the term Jaffa in the same class of "affection" as Dork ... ;)

I class nigga is a term of endearment a bit like chum, like "wassup mah nigga"
I must start using it more based on your views. It's ok and long as I mean it affectionately.

[pritch]

Similar in context to "Queen street farmers"

Then there's the 'Queen Street hunters' who terrify vast tracts of the central North Island about this time every year.

Or Queen Street drivers who are in deep shit if the seal stops. They then seemingly make a beeline for the nearest ditch.

Funny thing though, last time I was in Queen Street my brother asked what country we were in? Looking at the people in the street would have only given misleading clues.

[Gearup]

I class nigga is a term of endearment a bit like chum, like "wassup mah nigga"
I must start using it more based on your views. It's ok and long as I mean it affectionately.


You'll be fine...

[FJRider]

I class nigga is a term of endearment a bit like chum, like "wassup mah nigga"
I must start using it more based on your views. It's ok and long as I mean it affectionately.

I've been called worse ... :laugh:

But between you and your mates (I assume you still have some :innocent:) ... whatever term of "endearment" you choose to use is your business. And it's only between you and them.

However some PC hanger's on, associates or acquaintances ... might see it differently. I personally don't in that context. As I gather you don't.

Such as it should be in my opinion.

Part of my working life was in the northern isle ... working with an ex resident of the big city ... and he was constantly referred to ... and known as ... Jaffa.

[FJRider]

Some of those described as Jaffas are a tad over sensitive. A couple from north of the Bombays were passing through Taranaki and stopped at Stratford for a flat white. When the coffee was served there was a jaffa on each saucer. They reportedly took this as a personal insult. It wasn't, it was just how that shop served coffee.

Apparently ... "I must spread some reputation around ... "

[eldog]

At least at the moment ... they're not moaning about the traffic chaos and congestion ... :innocent:

Can we have a lockdown for just Auckland after Covid 19 is done and dealt with ... ??? No more traffic issues.

Ok it might piss a few jaffa's off ... but in the interest of National amusement ... do we really care .. ??


No ... it's a large oval orange thick-skinned sweet (previously made in Dunedin) ... "Rangitoto Yank" was derogatory ... :shifty:


I class nigga is a term of endearment a bit like chum, like "wassup mah nigga"
I must start using it more based on your views. It's ok and long as I mean it affectionately.


I've been called worse ... :laugh:

But between you and your mates (I assume you still have some :innocent:) ... whatever term of "endearment" you choose to use is your business. And it's only between you and them.

However some PC hanger's on, associates or acquaintances ... might see it differently. I personally don't in that context. As I gather you don't.

Such as it should be in my opinion.

Part of my working life was in the northern isle ... working with an ex resident of the big city ... and he was constantly referred to ... and known as ... Jaffa.

although the motorway is running as it should-I experienced not problems
tge traffic has moved to the supermarkets, mostly packed car parks and long queues, so far I have only had to wait for 2 seconds to get in......

please send as many those chocolate Jaffas as you can spare, want to roll them down the cinema a less.


SB - a lot of people using that word up here in Akl, talking to people who they either think are beneath them or one of there minions. Quite popular ‘gangsta’ culture. Sometimes it’s used as a term for relatives, mainly younger 30s age group. Not used in original context.
if you think that’s bad, you should listen to some of the music they listen too.

just a fabulous fantastic aucklander -what’s wrong with that?

taking insult from a sweet on a coffee cup saucer, can’t be a south aucklander. We would ask why there was only 1 and if 2 marshmallows were forthcoming, do we get a free cup with every 5 cups can you stamp my loyalty card please.

[husaberg]

Then there's the 'Queen Street hunters' who terrify vast tracts of the central North Island about this time every year.

Or Queen Street drivers who are in deep shit if the seal stops. They then seemingly make a beeline for the nearest ditch.

Funny thing though, last time I was in Queen Street my brother asked what country we were in? Looking at the people in the street would have only given misleading clues.

I could be wrong but prior to this movie i never herd the term Jaffa being used i believe this is where te term first came from its just a simple recoining of this phrase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVuE7UmJrw

[FJRider]

taking insult from a sweet on a coffee cup saucer, can’t be a south aucklander. We would ask why there was only 1 and if 2 marshmallows were forthcoming, do we get a free cup with every 5 cups can you stamp my loyalty card please.

By way of comparison ... it is a long held belief by many outside the Auckland boundaries ... that the building of the Sky tower was built for one reason only.


Ana that it was to prove ... to ALL in the city ... that civilization DID exist on the other side of the Bombay hills .... ;)

[eldog]

By way of comparison ... it is a long held belief by many outside the Auckland boundaries ... that the building of the Sky tower was built for one reason only.


Ana that it was to prove ... to ALL in the city ... that civilization DID exist on the other side of the Bombay hills .... ;)

Nah that was to lure people into the central city, who knows why, a bit like a mouse trap. Then they partly built a conference centre, way over budget and time and decided to try an insurance scam to get out.....

Bombay hills were made centuries beforehand, the speed limit was reduced a couple of years ago, so it takes longer to get there and the Waikato fog to keep the southerners out.

auckland-civilisation but not as you know it, apart from da South

[FJRider]

All activities? That's a rather broad term. Here's the thing - let's say I post up figures for the top 10 outdoors activities that people are upset about, apply the same Formula.

We'd rather you didn't ... You should be stopped from posting ... for the same reason that quoting posted images are frowned on ... on this site.

A waste of space ... :shifty:


We both know that the end result, factoring a significant reduction (70%, 80% or 95% - whatever you are happy with), the length of time, the absence of any tourists etc. etc. is going to leave a net figure that is small.

Exceptionally small.

As an example - Ocean swimming - 2018/2019 figures were ~1,700 rescues. If we remove 35% due to no Tourists, that's ~1,200 (using Lazy maths), then divide by 12 - that's 100 - now let's divide that by 95% - that's 5.

Now let's account for the fact that the most likely demographic that would be going out to Swim in the sea during a lockdown are experienced Swimmers/Athletes (not saying they never get into trouble - but y'know, stats n stuff) - that leads to 0.

Also add in it's no longer Summer.

The restriction on outdoor activities has nothing to to with tourist actions , activities or numbers. Watch "Piha Rescue" and you'll see most of those needing help are New Zealanders anyway.


Rinse and repeat for any other activity you care to name.

Considering any commercial tourist activity stopped more than a month ago ... and the handful of tourists left in the country could be counted (without taking your shoes and socks off) quickly ... and are not the reason for any restrictions imposed on us all.



Sometimes they do and sometimes Governments have a habit of using situations to legislate powers that otherwise would never have been granted. And to be frank, I don't trust this Government nor do I trust the senior Police Management.

Feel free to rip my argument to shreds on that point, but never-the-less, I can think of multiple instances both in NZ and overseas were Emergency Powers were granted and weren't wholesale revoked, with some 'systems, procedures and structures' being left intact.

Fact is ... NONE of the Emergency powers in place at this time have been "Revoked". Nor likely to be until those powers are lifted. So you and everybody else are subject to ... and must comply with the same rules and conditions as everybody else.

Being a free country ... you are free to take legal action against whomever you like. But probably not possible until after release from lockdown ... as such matters are not regarded as essential. GOOD LUCK.


I should have perhaps clarified, I was using it to highlight that the claim 'it's being evaluated on risk of injury requiring 3rd party intervention' is demonstrably not true.

Incorrect. It has BEEN evaluated (past tense) as a possible risk of some might need rescued. Wait for Level three ... then surf to your hearts content. I think hunting is still being frowned on though.

[FJRider]

... auckland-civilisation ...

A contradiction in terms ... :shifty:

[FJRider]

... I think most hunters just want to be Left Alone, to do their thing.

Aside from the fact that thinking just seems to confuse you ... remember ... those hunters that go out and then get into strife ... may well "be left alone" ... ;)

[FJRider]

I hope he made her cry.

If he came before she did ... she probably would ... :laugh:

[pete376403]

Hunters, surfers, trampers, mountain climbers, etc should be entirely free to do as they wish, on the understanding that if they should be injured or lost during their activities, no rescue or other assistance will be available. Seems fair.

[FJRider]

Hunters, surfers, trampers, mountain climbers, etc should be entirely free to do as they wish, on the understanding that if they should be injured or lost during their activities, no rescue or other assistance will be available. Seems fair.

I think they should be rescued ... but only after the bill gets paid.

In times like this ... fuck free shit.

[Kickaha]

i never herd the term Jaffa being used i believe this is where te term first came from its just a simple recoining of this phrase.

It only has one F

Jafa = Just another fucking Aucklander

[husaberg]

It only has one F

Jafa = Just another fucking Aucklander

Odd, I heard you too only had one F that it only lasted 10 seconds and you couldn't find anyone who liked it.....

[jasonu]

I struggle with Dover being a double standard hypocrite. That's all.
He's happy to dish out derogatory terms & show no respect to a large group with no repercussions.
He was all fired up & full of his own shit.
I though, hes too old to be doing meth.
I guess you don't remember the Paul Holmes "cheeky darkie" incident?

Or Hone's 'white mutha fuckers' .


but that's totally different.....

[jasonu]

I class nigga is a term of endearment a bit like chum, like "wassup mah nigga"
I must start using it more based on your views. It's ok and long as I mean it affectionately.



Must spread...

Niggas are always calling each other niggas but I guess that's different too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NY1y1aggUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLOw_SzkRQ8

[Laava]

It only has one F

Jafa = Just another fucking Aucklander
I always thought it was "fuckwit from"?:dodge:

[Gearup]

Or Hone's 'white mutha fuckers' .


but that's totally different.....


I've always thought it shows a lot about the people who resort to using derogatory terms.

[Kickaha]

I always thought it was "fuckwit from"?:dodge:

Well that works too

[skippa1]

Hunters, surfers, trampers, mountain climbers, etc should be entirely free to do as they wish, on the understanding that if they should be injured or lost during their activities, no rescue or other assistance will be available. Seems fair.
Doesnt work in today's society, if someone hurts themselves, it has to be someone else's fault and they must be punished

[JATZ]

You got a Sauce for that? It seems odd on the face of it (not saying it's wrong) that they are predicting life-long effects for a disease that is only 5 months old......
Not one that would stand up to any scrutiny. It was just part of a quote on another m/bike forum buy some random. I didn't ask to see the posters credentials, so yes it was presumptuous. I'm sure you could google up arguments, both for and against long term health problems.

[FJRider]

Not one that would stand up to any scrutiny. It was just part of a quote on another m/bike forum buy some random. I didn't ask to see the posters credentials, so yes it was presumptuous. I'm sure you could google up arguments, both for and against long term health problems.

Here is a link to one site. Quickly reading it suggests the patients needing ventilators would probably have later issues with their lungs ... as if surviving it wasn't enough.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-long-term-effects/story?id=69811566

Being a relatively new virus ... not that much is known about it. Which is why it would be best not to get it ... or pass it on to one of your loved ones ...


That's my plan anyway ... :yes:

[Stylo]

Here is a link to one site. Quickly reading it suggests the patients needing ventilators would probably have later issues with their lungs ... as if surviving it wasn't enough.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-long-term-effects/story?id=69811566

Being a relatively new virus ... not that much is known about it. Which is why it would be best not to get it ... or pass it on to one of your loved ones ...


That's my plan anyway ... :yes:

Tough times ahead it sounds like, not for the short term either.

Wondering how many visiting this site are being hit hard.

[FJRider]

Tough times ahead it sounds like, not for the short term either.

Wondering how many visiting this site are being hit hard.

The thing is ... a lot of things like residual infection by those that were infected. A few said they got it ... were cleared then were tested positive again.

Is it the testing process or the virus that's causing this problem ... ??

[eldog]

The thing is ... a lot of things like residual infection by those that were infected. A few said they got it ... were cleared then were tested positive again.

Is it the testing process or the virus that's causing this problem ... ??

Have I missed something, is the virus still present after people have recovered from having it?
Or are people safe once they have had it? Apart from whatever on going health issues they may suffer.

i don’t know anyone who has had it, so far.

only had limited effect, being quite good as I managed to wind down from work after several weeks. Got to wind back up.
definitely some people abusing essential work, I know this myself from other companies.
will be looking at what I am doing so I can retire earlier and have a better lifestyle away from idiots

[caspernz]

The thing is ... a lot of things like residual infection by those that were infected. A few said they got it ... were cleared then were tested positive again.

Is it the testing process or the virus that's causing this problem ... ??

Got a mate who lectures at Akld Uni Med School, listening to him talk about this creeps me out. Says there's at least 8 known strains of this virus, with only 2 so far seen in NZ. So you can get #1 and become immune, then when you're exposed to #2 the shit starts all over again. The fun part is the virus is mutating as well, quite slowly fortunately. Now I'm new to all this stuff, same as most of us, I kinda get why the caution as it sure ain't like the flu :mad:

The rest is what you hear in the media.

[Gearup]

Got a mate who lectures at Akld Uni Med School, listening to him talk about this creeps me out. Says there's at least 8 known strains of this virus, with only 2 so far seen in NZ. So you can get #1 and become immune, then when you're exposed to #2 the shit starts all over again. The fun part is the virus is mutating as well, quite slowly fortunately. Now I'm new to all this stuff, same as most of us, I kinda get why the caution as it sure ain't like the flu :mad:

The rest is what you hear in the media.


Was just talking to my sisiter who's a Nurse at the District Health Board. She said they're still only at level 2 (Level 1 being normal) thankfully.

Interestingly, she said getting the right amount of sleep really impacted on the bodies immunity level. Optimum is 7-9 hours but with only 4-5 hours for example, immune cell impairment is 70%.

[FJRider]

... The rest is what you hear in the media.

In these times ... look at whom is being quoted ... or whom is making the statements.

If a Dr of medicine is NOT the one named ... keep scrolling ... <_<

[FJRider]

Have I missed something ...

I've just seen the news reports with some stating that.

True or false ... better to avoid getting the virus. Stay safe ...;)

[mashman]

Well, it looks like as back to normal as we can get over the next 3 weeks, oh and have a cash bonus to spend spend spend like we know you want to. Oh won't election year be good. Will the blues bribe the public with a bigger "stimulus" payment, or will the reds. Oh so exciting to see how much more I can borrow from myself for myself to spend with someone else.

[pritch]

I'm sure you could google up arguments, both for and against long term health problems.

I'm sure he could too. The problem is scarring in the lungs which prevents the proper function of the alveoli. It's the inflammation of the alveoli that leads to the interstitial pneumonia. And no I haven't got a reference, I read that a week or three ago. Posted a link about the disease on KB though.

[pritch]

In these times ... look at whom is being quoted ... or whom is making the statements.

If a Dr of medicine is NOT the one named ... keep scrolling ... <_<

Exactly. Trump today was completely off his rocker, recommending bathing in ultra violet light, disinfectant injections, disinfectant in the lungs, drinking bleach. He should have been carted off in a straight jacket.

Apparently it's a while since he, or his catamounts at Fox, have made mention of Chloroquine. Funny that.

In case you doubt my comments, the official gives his spiel, Trump having heard what the official said (sort of) gives his take on it. Amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtgVxGkrX1Y

[F5 Dave]

Jesus fuking Krist. The guy is a complete moron.

I was going to make a joke about how he has 42% approval rating now and like 25% of mericans trust him for medical advice.

They say you get the politicians you deserve but fuk me. Actually I've become friends with a bunch over the internet and mostly are a great bunch at least in my motorcycling bubble. I wouldn't wish this shot on any of them.

[James Deuce]

I'm sure he could too. The problem is scarring in the lungs which prevents the proper function of the alveoli. It's the inflammation of the alveoli that leads to the interstitial pneumonia. And no I haven't got a reference, I read that a week or three ago. Posted a link about the disease on KB though.

That's what the nurse has been saying from her reading too. We have one son with a history of severe respiratory illness and because of that he has a predilection to developing Bronchiectasis. COVID-19 will almost certainly hasten the process, if he were to catch it, if not outright kill him.

[jasonu]

Jesus fuking Krist. The guy is a complete moron.

I was going to make a joke about how he has 42% approval rating now and like 25% of mericans trust him for medical advice.

They say you get the politicians you deserve but fuk me. Actually I've become friends with a bunch over the internet and mostly are a great bunch at least in my motorcycling bubble. I wouldn't wish this shot on any of them.

Come on Dave don't listen to that stupid old cunt.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtgVxGkrX1Yhttps://i.imgflip.com/2lkekc.jpg

[F5 Dave]

Come on Dave don't listen to that stupid old cunt.

The problem is mate that people do.

Just admit you need to refer to experts. Even Cindy-Loo-Who does that

[mashman]

Did that dude just say "coronavirus 2020" back in 2003... heh heh heh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P77bUdE4p4&feature=youtu.be&t=67

[TheDemonLord]

Did that dude just say "coronavirus 2020" back in 2003... heh heh heh

Probably referring to SARS, which is also a strain of Coronavirus, which came about in 2002, 2020 is probably a reference to 20/20 hindsight.

But keep that Tinfoil hat on....

[flyingcrocodile46]

I have refrained from posting here again until the time was right (allowing a good bit of time for the population control plan to be rolled out and for cracks in the MSM & govt narrative to become overwhelmingly obvious).

I have elected to give you just a a small amount of info and links in the hope that the smallish challenge of unbiased consideration might occur. I will not be responding to questions or comments, this is informational only. What you do with it is over to you.


Right from the onset the information surrounding covid 19 was built out of lies regarding causes of deaths that were counted as covid so that fear could be ramped up to justify a declaration of a pandemic. Dying from treatable conditions because of a hospital bed shortage should not be counted as a covid death but has been the case in many countries, particularly those whose govts allocated financial aid based on the numbers of declared covid deaths.


I have chosen a simple country of simple people for this particular illustration. "Australia" where 900 people have been recorded as killed by Covid 19 in the last year and a half. Even if it is assumed that the 600 per year was an accurate figure, why is our (elite controlled) media not questioning how that death rate stacks up against the 430 to 4300 people that die of influenza and pneumonia in Australia each year? 4260 deaths in 2017 was 7 x higher than their Covid death rate of 600 a year). Interestingly there have been only a small percentage of Flu deaths recorded this last year and a half. (funny that). See for yourself on the Aussie govt statistics site... https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2017~Main%20Features~Deaths%20due%20to%20in fluenza~5


Fear, Fear, FEAR has been hyped at every opportunity to drive what is starting to look like an international drive for mandatory invasive medical procedures injecting untested lethal concoctions designed to interfere with the human genome with unknowable consequences. Consequences that some of the more honest developers are just now realising is an unmitigated disaster of potentially genocidal proportions. They have been testing these procedures for 20 years on animals with disastrous consequences (mostly all dead) and can't get them approved as vaccines until.... They threw away the rule book and approved their use under emergency, and at the same time granted the developers immunity from all consequences (unless they injected themselves lol... and most have not). What the hell is happening to peoples thinking? There has been a ground swell of resistance around the world to GMO in our food supply, and now we have terrified sheeple queuing up to inject the shit directly. OMG!


The CDC have recorded on their VERS web site (search it yourself) that over 9000 Americans have died (so far) following one or two vaccine injections. FACT It is lethal and is far more so than the swine flu vaccine that was pulled off the market after just 50 deaths.


To top it off, the shit doesn't even keep you safe from covid with thousands of recipients being recorded as catching themselves the real virus (or did their body manufacturer it??) as at June 29 in America alone 4,115 Vaccinated People were Hospitalised With COVID-19 ‘Breakthrough’ Infections and 750 of them died. That isn't counting the thousands (or even tens of thousands) of vaccinated people who have been infected by covid after their vaccination but who weren't hospitalised. https://www.theepochtimes.com/4115-vaccinated-people-have-died-been-hospitalized-with-covid-19-breakthrough-infections-cdc_3876243.html


See this recently released discussion contribution from Dr. Robert Malone, a pioneer in the field of mRNA vaccines, which lays out a disturbing trend; the most-vaccinated countries in the world are experiencing a surge in COVID-19 cases, while the least-vaccinated countries are not. "This is worrying me quite a bit," tweeted Malone, "https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/worrying-me-quite-bit-mrna-vaccine-inventor-shares-viral-thread-showing-covid-surge-most.


Now we have govts (and many companies already) implementing vaccination passports (for vaccines that don't work while disavowing the efficacy of natural immunity) and dividing the world into passionately polarized groups to hate on and discriminate against each other. Hell we already have terrified (brain atrophied) sheeple wanting mandatory vaccines and mandatory masks forever and our govts (read as parasitic murderous elite eugenicist controlled stooges) are chomping at the bit to incrementally take more and more of our freedoms away as fear and paranoia are turned up and up so that the scared start demanding freedoms be removed to protect us.


Hot tip. If you want to make money on the property market you better do it quickly as I expect that the demand for housing (particularly large family homes) is going to ease back quite a bit as the birth rates drop off.

Good luck

[F5 Dave]

So, let me get this right.

The vaccine doesnt work and heaps of people who have had it are being hospitalized by a virus that is just a scam.

Make your mind up.

[nerrrd]

Human psychology is fascinating.

In other news, was a pretty nice day today. Went around doing all the stuff I usually do in a completely non-terrified fashion.

[release_the_bees]

"900 people have been recorded as killed by Covid 19"

That needs to be seen in context. 900 deaths is pretty bad when you consider that they've been doing everything possible to keep the virus out.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[husaberg]

https://www.logically.ai/articles/scientists-vs-science-interviews-with-mike-yeadon-and-robert-malone

[R650R]

I would like to extend my best wishes and hopes for everyone during and following this global crisis for humanity. I would also like to offer the following thoughts and observations in the hope that they may either help or entertain you in some way and also in the hopes of encouraging others to offer their own observations, thoughts and plans in a helpful open dialogue that we might all benefit from as we seek to understand and plan for our futures.

I have been doing a lot of research and thinking about what is happening, the causes, the short & long term effects and exacerbating factors that have bought us here and what is likely to happen moving forward. I tend to write down important issues and observations as I attempt to get my head around them and continually edit them until I am satisfied that I have. The following is a summary of my observations and thoughts thus far (still a work in progress);



The looming international depression

Given the scale of financial market losses the world experienced in the month before lock down and the Trillion$ upon Trillion$ being poured into the rapidly deflating full spectrum of massively overinflated investment bubbles, one can only shake their heads in bewilderment as all the rules get tossed out the window and we teeter on the precipice of the greatest depression in known history.

Not so sure that it will happen? Then please consider the following. In 2008 (after/during an Initial $1 Trillion govt bail out) the Fed started quantitive easing at a rate of 90 billion a month of magic money to the big banks (a little over 1 Trillion a year) with little respite since. This took the US debt from 8 Trillion to over 23 Trillion at the end of 2020). Now they are announcing multiples of Trillion$ each month with over 1 Trillion required to be made available for the banks in the overnight market to fund their Repo market shortfalls to keep their overnight trading balance sheets propped up.

I dare say none of you noticed the lack of fanfare that accompanied the removal of the previous Bank reserve requirements (to maintain cash holdings no less than 10% of the debt ledger). They can now loan out (manufacture electronic credit) without any limits at all. For those that don't know, the previous limit was to retain $1 cash (actual paper/coin) on hand for every $9 of magic money that they create electronically via loans (debt). Oh! and BTW The Federal reserve (there are 12 of them) are not owned or controlled by the US Federal govt (or the states). They are entirely owned by the banks that they issue magic money to. Don't believe me, Google it for yourselves/.

It appears the only thing preventing the realisation of free-fall is the unprecedented worldwide lockdown that has effectively killed market trading. You can't even get physical gold bullion presently.

Barring a miracle, it appears very likely that many businesses will be unable to fund their continuation/re-start (and/or are likely to suffer many order cancellations that may make their continuation pointless). Many other businesses will seek to downsize following order cancellations and/or greatly diminished market prospects. This will result in large scale loss of employment and income that will see hundreds of thousands divesting themselves of assets and many family homes foreclosed due to unserviceable mortgages on rapidly devaluing properties that in many cases will be sold for less than the money owed on them.

Given the scale of financial market losses the world has experienced since February, Govts and businesses are likely to come out of this pandemic decidedly gun-shy about the just-in-time supply model and globally dispersed production. This will likely result in a retreat from hyper-globalization, as Govts and big businesses seek to reduce future vulnerabilities by bringing supply chains closer to home and incorporating redundancies to protect against future disruption. An added benefit is a potentially more carbon friendly supply chain and (along with big national and city infrastructure projects) will create much needed employment opportunities.

Quantification of the collapse of a lot of businesses/services that are required to re start the economy and provide employment will occur and very (imo) likely be followed by govt legislation that will result in

l* Consolidation and enhancement (via burdensome regulatory requirements for employment and public health security) of big business monopolies and franchising over smaller independent businesses who can't finance pre-start employment and public health compliance requirements for any businesses deemed to be part of essential supplies and services. (Think OSH compliance X 33).
l* Establishment of Govt/big business partnerships in strategic industries to underwrite otherwise unprofitable redundancies and domestic product supply infrastructure for essential services, Raw materials, products and big infrastructure projects.

l* I'm sure there should be more on this list, but my crystal ball is a bit clouded ad I find it difficult to use logic to recognise and assess possibilities that are subject to political distortions. Open to your thoughts here as it is important that we understand as many of the more probable possibilities as is practical.



Who’s to blame and what to will happen as a result?


There has to be a bad guy to blame and China is widely (if not justifiably) seen to be getting too big for its boots by many partisan and racist (waves to Australia) western countries that are in lock step with the USA. There is also speculation around the way China managed reporting of the Covid 19 outbreak that Duncelot Trump so delicately pointed out was "Made in China". So it’ll likely be China that cops the blame imo.

Going by history, we will very likely see this morphed into a cold war between western countries and China (China being the new Red Technology Terror) in order to justify an arms race to continue the squandering of world wide taxes. Oh yeah! don't you fret about taxes, they ain't going to disappear - more to follow.

We will likely see a pivot from privacy concerns to the logistics of safety and social distancing (which will be milked for all it is worth by governments around the world) to increase control over and decrease freedoms of the masses make us all safe from each other in this deadly new world that we have been so thoroughly scared into being terrified of educated about. Privacy concerns about revealing our whereabouts and activities will give way to how best to service a population with a demand for goods and services while still maintaining social distancing requirements (that our new hyper inflated fear levels will demand). We will likely see the swift introduction of the following measures before the wave of fear subsides.

l* Travel restrictions
l* Immunity passports - Oh yeah, that's already an international governmental talking point
l* Initiation of massive public (control) transport infrastructure growth plans
l* Social Credit/Class (behavior reward/penalty) system underwritten with a new "No Play- No Pay" Social obligations contract.
l* Digital currency. Turn it on if you’re good. Turn it off if you’re not.
l* Social gathering (dissent) restriction/controls.

Chinese style Smart City technology is likely to be implemented to monitor for and control viral outbreaks. This will typically include temperature checks at major travel points using surveillance and thermal scanning camera networks to monitor and prevent viral contagion and a massive digital camera network for tracking and enforcing quarantine zones and supporting hands-free access transit systems etc. (Big brother on steroids).




Other (less insidious) likely follow on effects?


Public gathering places that are already being weakened by the internet (libraries, movie theatres and other entertainment venues) will be further weakened. With public resources shifted into plague control, they will suffer a drop in funding. I suspect that our concerns post-crisis will be more basic: i.e. where can I live affordably and how can I access job and services safely.

There is likely to be Increased interest by individuals and companies in development of in-house pandemic preparations. Bug out bags, quarantine rations, and family/community planning based on emergency situations. Anyone surprised?

There will very likely be abig shift to increase the home-based work population substantially (future proofing Govt agencies, Councils and business services from the effects of future lock downs). The regular, 9 to 5 business days are likely to become flexible working days, and a more significant segment of the workforce is likely to become "night people" and have off-hours and rest during the daytime while others are working. This may see an increase in 24/7 operations for businesses that traditionally did not operate this way, such as for supermarkets, takeout food businesses, and centralized food distribution and preparation centres. All of these will require enabling of enhanced technologies for logistics management to serve a population always awake and in need of goods and services at all times.

We will likely experience a big increase in want/need for remote first technologies. An acceleration in 5G implementation will support a change in societal connectivity demands (NO 5G DID NOT CAUSE COVID 19). This will also support the expedited implementation of VR solutions for remote collaborations and social activities. As a society, we can expect restrictions in social gatherings, but humans are fundamentally social creatures. VR represents a solution to this innate need.




Work Income and Assets


It is likely that a significant number of people currently living in cities will see a lot more appeal in small town living and/or more remote lifestyle blocks for a multitude of reasons including amongst others; More flexible (work from home) employment opportunities, more comfortable/safer/self sufficient Isolation, cheaper cost of living for BUI recipients, unemployment forcing early retirement and need to downsize to a caravan park or country town for an early retirement. This will ease the pressure on city housing stock shortages and further deflate house prices in cities. However, the flip side is that we will likely see an increase in housing demand and construction in select retirement destinations (offering further relocation/employment incentives for trades people to leave cities).

Taxes and Universal Basic Incomes (UBI) or unemployment benefit as we know it. Not so much a revelation to us Kiwis who have been paying taxes to house, clothe, feed, educate and entertain an already sizable percentage of our population (ever notice the similarity between the words population and pollution?). Weeeeell, there's good news and bad news here and it doesn't require a degree in rocket science or even an explanation in order for the worthy to understand the personal and collective impact. The only question is, which camp you and I will be in next month. Google UBI and get your crystal ball out for more info.

Areas I think will provide employment opportunities are as follows;

l* Domestic supply of essential products
l* Massive public (control) transport infrastructure & health care growth - health $ back into small communities
l* Large scale govt investment in housing stock to shelter the newly homeless.
l* Housing construction boom in smaller communities
l* Surveillance and thermal scanning camera networks to monitor and prevent viral contagion and a massive digital camera network for tracking and enforcing quarantine zones and supporting hands-free access transit systems etc (big Brother).
l* Iinterest by individuals and companies in developingin-house pandemic preparations. (specialists)
l* VR solutions for remote collaborations and social activities
l* Recycling plants to produce building materials that put carbon into the ground (though this really just an item on my wish list)

l This section is also very light and I imagine many of you will have some constructive ideas and insights in this area. Please contribute them in following posts.




Prefered but unlikely cure for what ails the world

An international debt Jubilee (the writing off of all debt) is the best way to start fixing the wealth inequality of the world. As I see it, even if the fed (and other central banks) only gets 5 cents on the dollar for their mortgage backed securities and/or govt bonds, they are still ahead of the wealth transfer game, as the electronic money they used to buy the security was magic money that they made out of thin air.

Why is that world leaders can't get it through their thick heads that they can make all of the economic ills of the world go away with a wave of their middle fingers to the banks as they make laws to take back control of their sovereign coin and re-set the playing field by abolishing ALL existing debt. All of a sudden everything is the same but there is no debt. Only the parasitic ticket clippers and leeches at the very top of the magic money-go-round will lose anything. Even then, all they will lose is magic money debt that they shouldn't have had in the first place. No-one need lose any material possessions (not even the leeches at the top).

Keen on hearing your constructive contributions.

Stay home and stay well


I love that this post is so comprehensive and lengthy that the cut n paste multi quotes here won’t have the bandwidth to deal with it. It’s like a pandemic of words

[pritch]

It’s like a pandemic of words

Or a pandemic of bullshit. There's enough to be concerned about without the avalanche of misinformation. Mindless prattle about vaccine passports for instance, they've long been a thing. Less so in recent years but there are still places where they are likely required. So they wil be reintroduced? BFD!!!

Nobody has to have a vaccine or a passport. They can just stay home - permanently. If they're really that stupid, fuckem.

The comment about over reportng is laughable. It's far more likely the figures are hugely under reported. In the US at the height of the outbreak in 2020 people were being sent home because there were no beds at the hospital the subsequent deaths were often recorded as pneumonia. Then there's the corrupt states such as Florida that were deliberately under reporting deaths. The scientists have their own way of establishing the number of deaths so we'll know eventually, one way or the other.

I've posted these attachments before but they both fit here.

[husaberg]

I love that this post is so comprehensive and lengthy that the cut n paste multi quotes here won’t have the bandwidth to deal with it. It’s like a pandemic of words

Funny considering you were the lady that claimed people only allegedly died from covid.

[Berries]

I will not be responding to questions or comments, this is informational only.
Not the first time you have done that and not for the first time I haven't bothered reading past that sentence.

[F5 Dave]

Can someone please tell me who these Elites are?

[nerrrd]

Can someone please tell me who these Elites are?

I think they live in the next street over from all the communists.

[F5 Dave]

So how do the Jews and shape shifting lizard people fit into this?

[James Deuce]

So how do the Jews and shape shifting lizard people fit into this?

The suits adapt really well.

[pritch]

The suits adapt really well.

Never mind the quality, feel the width?

[flyingcrocodile46]

The 10% who refused the vaccine are the only people (remaining kiwis) intelligent enough to be trusted to vote wisely. The rest of you are genetically compromised Dodos who readily abdicated the responsibility to make adult decisions. Vote to investigate the scamdemic or STFU.

Look at the facts presented by Dr David Martin. COLD HARD FACTUAL TRUTH. Learn or die.
https://rumble.com/v3k478g-dr.-david-martin-exposes-the-whos-global-genocide.html?mref=6zof&mc=dgip3&ep=1

https://rumble.com/v3k478g-dr.-david-martin-exposes-the-whos-global-genocide.html?mref=6zof&amp;mc=dgip3&amp;ep=1

[Berries]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYYo49R_ZS0