Stainless steel brakelines

[Eurodave]

What is the current ruling on aftermarket stainless steel brakelines?, ie do the fittings have to be swaged on or are the screw on reusable ones now OK? Also do they have to have any markings/numbers on them as lines that dont have the clear plastic covering them dont have any markings

[kerryg]

What is the current ruling on aftermarket stainless steel brakelines?, ie do the fittings have to be swaged on or are the screw on reusable ones now OK? Also do they have to have any markings/numbers on them as lines that dont have the clear plastic covering them dont have any markings


My understanding is that swaged are NOT acceptable and that ONLY the screw-on type are allowd and only then if they bear clear identification marking showing that they are made to an approved standard (eg DOT or DIN or whatever).

[F5 Dave]

All big poos. Yes they need specific markings. To the letter of the law I decided to get some HEL ones assembled & tested & labeled by Alert engineering in Auckers. Just sent the old ones & said copy please.

Good to deal with & quite cheap. Gets through warrents whereas my last ones didn't.

[Badcat]

All big poos. Yes they need specific markings. To the letter of the law I decided to get some HEL ones assembled & tested & labeled by Alert engineering in Auckers. Just sent the old ones & said copy please.

Good to deal with & quite cheap. Gets through warrents whereas my last ones didn't.

do you have a contact - and what did you get and how muchee?
i have to do this for the street-tracker project.
ken

[F5 Dave]

Countrymember how much.

www.yellowpages.co.nz

or Google Alert Engineering NZ

[Shaun]

Moto Dynamix in New Plymouth can supply Road Legal braided brake lines.
email ttproduction1@msn.com

[Bonez]

Eurodave take your old lines into the likes of ENZED, Hydraulink or TRACGRIP. Look under hoses in the Yellow Pages of your phone book. They should be able to source WOF legal lines. Make sure you specify they should be WOF standard.
Got some through Hydraulink for my CB550FA. Mine have markings on the crimp as well as the plastic sheath and are screwed on to an adapter peice that goes onto the caliper. I've also kept the invoice that states they are WOF standard if the testing station inspector has any issues. Cost an arm and a leg. Next time I'll try another outfit.

[TLDV8]

I would like to know who makes these rules...warrant due now,complete set of semi expensive US braided lines which will no doubt fail. :argh:

[TLDV8]

I would like to know who makes these rules...warrant due now,complete set of semi expensive US braided lines which will no doubt fail. :argh:

Did i mention :argh: ?............. :laugh:

[RiderInBlack]

Just a must read older thread about this subject of braided brake lines:

Braided Brake Lines (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2446)

Someone is making money out of this rule:argh:

[classic zed]

Taken from my copy of the VIRM (Vehicle Inspections Requirements Manual)

Reasons for rejection

18 A Flexible hydraulic brake hose including connections

a) is leaking brake fluid, or
b) is insecure, or
c) bulges under pressure, or
d) is twisted, stretched, chafed, or
e) the external sheathing is cracked to the extent that the reinforcing cords are exposed, or
f) has metal connections that are excessively corroded, or
g) is a non-OE stainless-steel braided hydraulic brake hose that is not
i. used to substitute OE hoses only, and
ii. designed specifically for highway use, and
iii. can be identified as complying with a recognised approved automotive standard (such as FMVSS-106).

[classic zed]

Taken from my copy of the VIRM (Vehicle Inspections Requirements Manual)

Reasons for rejection

18 A Flexible hydraulic brake hose including connections

a) is leaking brake fluid, or
b) is insecure, or
c) bulges under pressure, or
d) is twisted, stretched, chafed, or
e) the external sheathing is cracked to the extent that the reinforcing cords are exposed, or
f) has metal connections that are excessively corroded, or
g) is a non-OE stainless-steel braided hydraulic brake hose that is not
i. used to substitute OE hoses only, and
ii. designed specifically for highway use, and
iii. can be identified as complying with a recognised approved automotive standard (such as FMVSS-106).


forgot to mention these rules apply for
class LC Motorcycle
class LD Motorcycle and sidecar
class LE Motor tri-cycle

I had mine made up by "Brake and Clutch" on Wairau road, Glenfield, they have crimped ends and a clear plastic coating with "SAE J 1401 HL" on them,They are perfectly acceptable for a Wof.

[Paul in NZ]

So nothing about the connectors - just the line?

[FROSTY]

ohh yea heres a laugh. I failed a WOf a lil while ago for having non compliant braided brake lines.
I was a lil concerned that the brake line fairy had snuck into my gargre overnight -because all my brake lines were rubber last time I looked.
The inspector was a little cross at me questioning him--
pointing to my CLUTCH line (factory braided) he started to give me a lecture about bikies flaunting the law.
-Shortened long story--I got My wof

[RiderInBlack]

ohh yea heres a laugh. I failed a WOf a lil while ago for having non compliant braided brake lines.
I was a lil concerned that the brake line fairy had snuck into my gargre overnight -because all my brake lines were rubber last time I looked.
The inspector was a little cross at me questioning him--
pointing to my CLUTCH line (factory braided) he started to give me a lecture about bikies flaunting the law.
-Shortened long story--I got My wofDid you ever have fun with "Verronica" the VFR? She had braided lines on the front and I got a braided line for the back made and fitted on her after she "cut" the rubber one with a flattie:doh: The WOF dudes in Whangarei never said anything and nether did Tauranga. Just curious. Warr may have to watch that.

[Motu]

OE stainless lines are ok...but unless you are very well versed in that model you'll never know,even bike shop mechanics can get that wrong if they work in a Suzuki shop and have never come across some obscure Honda model.But it's up to you the owner to prove they are standard issue or comply.....well,you can pay the inspector at an hourly rate to find out for you,but it's not really his job,the WoF is just a visual inspection.This rule has come about because in the good old days all brake components were made in a professional shop,but these days you can make your own or import them yourself from who knows where - that's why a standard had to be set.

[Eurodave]

So guys, the guts of this mass debate is that, in short: braided lines NEED THE CORRECT NUMBERS/LETTERS ID ON THEM TO GET A WOF
In that case what are the numbers/letters?

[Paul in NZ]

So guys, the guts of this mass debate is that, in short: braided lines NEED THE CORRECT NUMBERS/LETTERS ID ON THEM TO GET A WOF
In that case what are the numbers/letters?

I'm just going through this now Dave... My lines have the right numbers but apparently the connectors are not the right type except i can't find anything IN the fecking reg's about connectors (other than damaged ones being uncool)

Watch this space or the 2 other threads on this...

Personally... I'm about to fecking give up on old bikes... It's just getting harder every year to keep them on the road. This shit pisses me off as I'm utterly anal about my bikes and they are usually in better condition that when they left the factory (mech speaking).... I'm sick of the disapproving looks and the eyes rolling up in the head everywhere from bike shops, cops, etc etc.. Funnily enough, people usually love to see them on the road...

I dunno...

[wendigo]

So guys, the guts of this mass debate is that, in short: braided lines NEED THE CORRECT NUMBERS/LETTERS ID ON THEM TO GET A WOF
In that case what are the numbers/letters?

No idea. I just went into TSS, said 'can I had stainless steel braided hoses for a TL 1000 S, here's the lengths I need". They rang their suppliers, who picked the hoses of the nearest lengths out of the parts bins & sent them down. Passed the WOF. The numbers on them are not bike specific but at a guess, the standard to which they have been built. The cynical side of me does question how closely the WOF person is going to look at the writing, but saying that, the writing on these particular lines is obviously machine generated and is repeated continously down the length of the hose. The upshot is that that these are not lines that have been made in somebody's shed that have had the appropriate numbers crayoned down the side.

My advice would be to go to a reputable bike dealer & get your hoses through them. It will cost a bit, but at least you'll have peace of mind that the hoses will be of the correct standard. Or if they aren't, it's the bike shops problem, not yours.

[Motu]

In that case what are the numbers/letters?

iii - can be identified as complying with a recognised approved automotive standard (such as FMVSS-106)

That's all the information the VIRM supplies,there are probably dozens of approved standards,but LTNZ supplies one,so unless your testing authority has a secret list they are only guessing....but anything with SAE on it will be taken as gospel.

Paul - what exactly is wrong with your fittings? If the hoses comply how could the fittings not comply? Your inspector is going outside his brief - is this the same guy who invented some bullshit about your footpegs? As much as you think he's a great guy,don't let him do a WoF on your bike! Much as the Cop who got told off for inventing a law about tinted visors - a WoF inspector can't invent regulations that don't exist.We are told by LTNZ that the VIRM is our Bible - if there is wording in there for a fail,then it fails,if there is no wording suitable to hang a fail on then it passes - get him to show you WHERE in the VIRM he finds your hoses fail.

[classic zed]

So nothing about the connectors - just the line?

Nope, for stainless hoses it makes no mention of connections (crimped or screwed), just that the complete hose needs to be up to standard.

[judgeshock]

You could ring gss performance in auckland on 09 525 6858. They have street legal brake lines made up that carry the j1401 code, apparently this is what you need for street use.

They are factory crimped and available in various lengths.

:yes:

The suck thing about all this is that i sold the teflon line and reusable fittings to brakespecs in the past, they could use them and say they were legal for road however we couldnt make them and sell them ourselves.

All we got told from our supplier was that they werent prepared to go through the process of spending the time and money to get around this problem. I however have made lots for race and off road vehicles.

[Paul in NZ]

iii - can be identified as complying with a recognised approved automotive standard (such as FMVSS-106)

That's all the information the VIRM supplies,there are probably dozens of approved standards,but LTNZ supplies one,so unless your testing authority has a secret list they are only guessing....but anything with SAE on it will be taken as gospel.

Paul - what exactly is wrong with your fittings? If the hoses comply how could the fittings not comply? Your inspector is going outside his brief - is this the same guy who invented some bullshit about your footpegs? As much as you think he's a great guy,don't let him do a WoF on your bike! Much as the Cop who got told off for inventing a law about tinted visors - a WoF inspector can't invent regulations that don't exist.We are told by LTNZ that the VIRM is our Bible - if there is wording in there for a fail,then it fails,if there is no wording suitable to hang a fail on then it passes - get him to show you WHERE in the VIRM he finds your hoses fail.

This is what I'm thinking...

I talked to him about it.. he was pretty definate so I'm guessing he has been told something that I can't confirm in the regs... Pretty fecking annoying!

I'm going to go see him this arvo and ask to see the regs because I too think this is bollocks. I'll see if I can find a soft copy of the regs first.

Paul N

[Motu]

It works both ways - you have to prove that whatever is on your bike complies....Hehas to prove to you where in the regulations you fail,if he has something to back it up,is it officail,or something he got from the Vincent Owners Club and is now applying it to your bike.

[Ixion]

This is what I'm thinking...

I talked to him about it.. he was pretty definate so I'm guessing he has been told something that I can't confirm in the regs... Pretty fecking annoying!

I'm going to go see him this arvo and ask to see the regs because I too think this is bollocks. I'll see if I can find a soft copy of the regs first.

Paul N
<a href="http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/publications/vir-manual/" >Here is the VIR manual</a>

[classic zed]

Trade Parts
Brake & Clutch Specialists
151 Wairau Rd Glenfield Auckland
0-9-444 0901

They made mine up, I took the old hoses in to use as a pattern and they made up the stainless ones, with correct markings and crimped ends, due to higher handlebars being fitted on the project I had the Master cylinder to bottom tree hose made longer, just gave them the measurement and it fits perfectly even got the correct angles on the ends.

I know it was a trade price but $120 for a set of 4 "legal" stainless hoses was pretty good.:2thumbsup

[HenryDorsetCase]

How did you guys KNOW I was investigating this very topic this morning. The CB400F front brake will just about stop you if you give it a HEARTY squeeze, so I am going to look for softer pads, change out the fluid, and get a new line made to replace one that is 27 years old....

Just spoke to DOn at Cycletreads and specifically asked him the question and he assured me no problem, the ones he has have the appropriate bits and bobs. Reasonably priced, too it seems like.

excellent!

thanks for the referral to the previous discussion.

[number33]

My old 78 XS has steel lines made by ENZED before all these bullshit regulations came in. Took the old dunger in for a warrant and the gits at PitStop started pissing their pants over the lines.
Them. "They're crimped not screwed, they're illegal - it's a new rule"
Me. "Who the fuck brought that bullshit in?"
Them. "Someone in a car with steel lines crashed, so the officials in Wellington brought it in"
Me. "So what do I do about it?"
Them. "Take them to Wellington and get the chief inspector to inspect them"
"If he thinks they're O.K. he'll certify them" "It costs about $300"
Me. "Fuck that"
Them. "Then go and buy some new certified lines"
Me. "Fuck that"
Them. "We won't issue a warrant until they're changed"
Me. "I'll go home and put back on my spongy 25 year old rubber hoses then come back"
Them. "O.K"

Did just that. Got the warrant. The fact the brakes were 50% less effective meant fuck all. Went back home and put the steels back on again. What a fucking hassle. Never went back to PitStop ever again. Found a garage who aren't hand wringing wimpering prats. Get a warrant every time. Slid on some red spark lead rubber with numbers and letters to look official.

[Paul in NZ]

Well my experience to date is...

There is nothing in the regulations that I can find that says anything about the connectors. The line however has to have some sort of tested standard.

But....

A clever company has got LTNZ to approve their lines which are swaged and has little plastic doofers etc on em. They have sent this approval certificate and some mumbo jumbo to every wof tester telling that their factory made ones are 'pressure tested' (oh please) and the assemble your self sort can't be and are therefore unsafe.

This letter looks official but to my eyes it is NOT. It looks like they photocopied a reduced certificate next to their words and imply the other sort are unsafe... This is clever but not very nice....

I will try to contact LTNZ about this asap (but kinda busy at the moment)

So.. Since I already had a line (purchased at great expense) from a decent bloke.. I have come to an accomodation that will see me part with no more money, obtain a flash new line and eventually a wof... All because the man in question is a gentleman, I will not be dragging him into it. I believe that he is doing his best.

Paul in NZ

ps - I note with wry amusement and not a little concern that the rocker oil feed that failed in spectacular fashion on the way to the Raglan Guzzi rally a couple of years back was... yes, a swaged line made by Pirtek and pressure tested... Had it been fitted to my brakes I would have passed my wof. Good luck guys, we are going to need it...

[number33]

Crimped rubber lines are O.K. But crimped steel lines are no good. Some snaking money-grubbing non-motorcycling office-wallah in Wellington says so. What a total crock of shit. The prats don't even know steel lines ARE rubber lines. With an outer steel sheath to stop expansion. But they know best.

[cowpoos]

All big poos what u doin using me name as slag chick man....shesssssh....rooster

[judgeshock]

Crimped rubber lines are O.K. But crimped steel lines are no good. Some snaking money-grubbing non-motorcycling office-wallah in Wellington says so. What a total crock of shit. The prats don't even know steel lines ARE rubber lines. With an outer steel sheath to stop expansion. But they know best.


The actual line being used for brakelines is a teflon liner with a s/s braid on the outer. This is how you get the harder feeling whilst braking.

The teflon doesnt flex much, can handle pretty much any fluid put through it and handles 262ºc

Unfortunately in nz theres not too many people i know that carry after market rubber hosing that can handle brakefluid.

[number33]

Yeah, rubber, plastic, teflon inside, I want to know what their problem with the braided steel casing is. They told me it's only because the banjo's are crimped on , not screwed on. Then in the same breath, they're saying crimped rubber hoses are fine. Here's a pic of each. They're telling me the rubbers banjo is O.K. but the steel's isn't. Why pick on only the steel cased? It's bullshit.

[Motu]

As I've mentioned a couple of times on this thread - it's because people can now make their own or import hoses themselves - brake hoses are very high on LTNZs safety priority,brake hoses HAVE to be controled....it could be your life,but who gives a fuck about that eh?

[NordieBoy]

brake hoses are very high on LTNZs safety priority,brake hoses HAVE to be controled....it could be your life,but who gives a fuck about that eh?

So everyone should carry a spare.

[Ixion]

Well, they all have to be crimped somewhere, because you can't put a decent thread on rubber or teflon.

But the VIRM doesn't say crimped is forbidden. It says they have to be to a recognised standard. Which as Mr Motu points out , is fair enough. Otherwise I could set up making shoddy but look good lines in my basement. Until one bursts and someone dies.

Like the saying says, it's all good fun until someone loses a hymen.

[number33]

I'm not having a go at anyone here, but look, competent people have been making brake lines for years. What's all of a sudden different now? Idiots can't make brake lines. The fairyland idea that all sorts of strange bastards are slapping together brake lines in their backyards, distributing them all over the country, whereupon they'll all burst and explode at any minute - is fucken crap. A brake hose either works or it doesn't. All a warrant tester need do is slam them brakes 1/2 dozen times - HARD. People need to get their heads out of the clouds.

Condemning hundreds or thousands of PERFECTLY GOOD brake hoses overnight is just a fucken scam. All because some slack assed pimply faced warrant tester didn't pick up on Joe Blows fucked hoses, and Joe Blow ran off the road. A fancy $250 tag with fancy numbers don't mean Jack shit. I bet more 'certified' hoses have crapped out more than any amount of 'unofficial' hoses. How many instances of suddenly bursting brakes occour in any year? Sweet F.A. if any. Regulations, regulations and more fucken P.C regulations. Regulations on regulations. These tut-tutting official twerps are way out of touch with the real world.

Bow ya heads to them like sheep to the slaughter if you're so inclined. Agree with their every word. Good luck to ya.

[Paul in NZ]

I agree with your sentiments #33 but...

The way to go is to challenge it legally. I'll bet a sack full of clubbed seal pups that some slick marketting type at a hose company has seen an opportunity and is spreading rumour and mis information to sell more of his product.

This sort of shit quickly becomes fact....

Does anyone actually know of someone whos crimped line failed? No... Probably an urban myth.

Cheers

[Ixion]

I'm not having a go at anyone here, but look, competent people have been making brake lines for years. What's all of a sudden different now? Idiots can't make brake lines. ..

Well, idiots can make dodgy hydraulic and air lines, cos I've seen 'em. Some of the work turned out by those mobile hydrulic vans was dodgy as. Some really good ones too, and even the not good ones mde good hoses most of the time. Just sometimes they botched it (used to work in a business that went through a lot). Not so different for brake lines , they're just hydraulic lines, low pressure at that.

I don't understand where all the crap about rubber and braided and swaged and screwed comes from. VIRM manual doesn't say anything about that. Same rules for rubber and braided.

[Motu]

It's because they are not OE,that's where we are going...being pushed along by the likes of boy racers.The way the WoF regulations are going is Euro standards,the vehicle is complied at manufacter,or on importation,and that's the way it will stay thank you very much - and the onus is being switched to the owner of the vehicle to keep it to that standard.Our vehicle regs are a mish mash from over 60 yrs making a rule here and a rule there - soon there will be one rule...compliance.

[number33]

Compliance be fucked.

[dhunt]

It's because they are not OE,that's where we are going...being pushed along by the likes of boy racers.
Hey Motu, this seems a bit odd, boy racers putting aftermarket brake lines? Surely not!

I go to a place out bulls way to my WoF, they don't have any problems with my brake lines not having some funny numbers stamped on them. All they cared about was did they work and was there enough meat on the pads.