Private sale issues

[breakaway]

I recently sold my bike to some dude. It spent so much of its time parked up in the garage I actually moved it into my rumpus room - figured there was no point in holding onto it anymore. I've got an injury that the hunched over position of a sportbike aggravates after a short time of riding.

Anyway, all this was going down during L4 covid19 lockdown. I did a video call / sent videos of the bike so he can get an idea of what it's like. He seemed satisfied with it, which I was a little nervous about as I know a couple of people had been by to see it in months prior and cited a lack of cosmetic perfection as problem for them. Also due to L4 lockdown buyer was unable to get a mechanical inspection. He did get his mechanic to contact me, who was very insistent on coming over right there and then during level 4 but I didn't allow it (I have elderly people at my home). I explained to him to wait until lockdown is lifted so his mechanic mate can get a good look at the bike, but ultimately he decided he didn't want to bother with getting it checked over. I also made it clear in the listing (and during our video calls) that the bike wasn't in "showroom condition" (especially being close to 15 years old, and having spent a few years of its life parked in the elements). Despite all this, he was VERY keen for the bike (out of town buyer), asking that I pull down the listing and he will pay immediately by internet banking to "Secure the bike". Obviously I didn't want to do this because I wanted the guy to be happy with the bike before handed over any cash. He was messaging me all hours of day & night saying how excited he was to pick up the bike which I thought was odd.

So the announcement comes for Level 3 and the guy immediately messages me he'll be over to pick up and pay cash. While all that is happening, he's asking me questions like if the tinted screen (Puig) is a problem for WoF. Kind of setting off alarm bells in my head, I mean who buys a GSXR1000 without knowing these things? But he seemed extremely keen and claimed he had a history with bikes so I looked past it. Tuesday AM rolls around - he arrives, looks at the bike, says he's happy with it. I remember specifically discussing with him how I'd gone out of town for a bike in my youth and it turned out to be a shitter and I had to come back home disappointed so it is important that he is happy with it. He's adamant it's all good so I help him load it onto his trailer (bike had no wof and reg was on hold since I don't really ride it). Didn't even take it for a test ride even though he said he'd wanted to the day before.

The day after he picks up, I start getting the complaints. Complaints like he is unhappy with the condition of the bike and that hes "Cleaned it up". That the key is sticking in the ignition (something I'd definitely have noticed because I took it around the corner to gas it up/check tyre pressures the day before at his request), oil being low (again, dubious because I'd serviced it just recently) and now he's saying the fork seals are leaking - this I'd definitely have picked up on as it is VERY obvious when these are leaking. He also mentions the chain needed tightening.

Obviously, I am not aware of any of these issues with the bike and most of them quite frankly sound like absolute bullshit to me.

What are my obligations here? I do have a signed document that states the VIN/Plate/Odometer/details of the bike and that it was sold without wof and reg (I do this as a matter of policy for all vehicles I sell or buy - to make sure there is a record of the state of things when the bike changed hands).

[HenryDorsetCase]

I recently sold my bike to some dude. It spent so much of its time parked up in the garage I actually moved it into my rumpus room - figured there was no point in holding onto it anymore. I've got an injury that the hunched over position of a sportbike aggravates after a short time of riding.

Anyway, all this was going down during L4 covid19 lockdown. I did a video call / sent videos of the bike so he can get an idea of what it's like. He seemed satisfied with it, which I was a little nervous about as I know a couple of people had been by to see it in months prior and cited a lack of cosmetic perfection as problem for them. Also due to L4 lockdown buyer was unable to get a mechanical inspection. He did get his mechanic to contact me, who was very insistent on coming over right there and then during level 4 but I didn't allow it (I have elderly people at my home). I explained to him to wait until lockdown is lifted so his mechanic mate can get a good look at the bike, but ultimately he decided he didn't want to bother with getting it checked over. I also made it clear in the listing (and during our video calls) that the bike wasn't in "showroom condition" (especially being close to 15 years old, and having spent a few years of its life parked in the elements). Despite all this, he was VERY keen for the bike (out of town buyer), asking that I pull down the listing and he will pay immediately by internet banking to "Secure the bike". Obviously I didn't want to do this because I wanted the guy to be happy with the bike before handed over any cash. He was messaging me all hours of day & night saying how excited he was to pick up the bike which I thought was odd.

So the announcement comes for Level 3 and the guy immediately messages me he'll be over to pick up and pay cash. While all that is happening, he's asking me questions like if the tinted screen (Puig) is a problem for WoF. Kind of setting off alarm bells in my head, I mean who buys a GSXR1000 without knowing these things? But he seemed extremely keen and claimed he had a history with bikes so I looked past it. Tuesday AM rolls around - he arrives, looks at the bike, says he's happy with it. I remember specifically discussing with him how I'd gone out of town for a bike in my youth and it turned out to be a shitter and I had to come back home disappointed so it is important that he is happy with it. He's adamant it's all good so I help him load it onto his trailer (bike had no wof and reg was on hold since I don't really ride it). Didn't even take it for a test ride even though he said he'd wanted to the day before.

The day after he picks up, I start getting the complaints. Complaints like he is unhappy with the condition of the bike and that hes "Cleaned it up". That the key is sticking in the ignition (something I'd definitely have noticed because I took it around the corner to gas it up/check tyre pressures the day before at his request), oil being low (again, dubious because I'd serviced it just recently) and now he's saying the fork seals are leaking - this I'd definitely have picked up on as it is VERY obvious when these are leaking. He also mentions the chain needed tightening.

Obviously, I am not aware of any of these issues with the bike and most of them quite frankly sound like absolute bullshit to me.

What are my obligations here? I do have a signed document that states the VIN/Plate/Odometer/details of the bike and that it was sold without wof and reg (I do this as a matter of policy for all vehicles I sell or buy - to make sure there is a record of the state of things when the bike changed hands).

As long as you are not "in trade" i.e. a private seller then the rule of Caveat Emptor prevails. I would have included something in your bill of sale (remember we don't have "title" or "ownership papers" here) along the lines of it is sold as inspected and no warranty is expressed or implied. It isnt a long document but I did one that saved a client's arse in context of a $130000 racecar.

The most important question is: Did you get paid? you don't say, just that the buyer was bringing round cash. Did he?

I think I would email the buyer and say "you viewed it, you stated you were happy, you paid me in cash money, and you signed a piece of paper confirming no reg/wof. I dont accept any liability and will not be entering into any further correspondence." He might go apeshit. In which case you have his name and address (right?) and can alert the po po to his threats of vilence.

I am of course taking you at your word that it wasn't an utter pig and that you didnt rip the guy off.....

In terms of his legal remedies, he is on the back foot chasing with not much recourse. You might have to go to the Disputes Tribunal at some point. It can be a lottery but preparation is the key.

The downside of course is this guy knows where you live....

[sidecar bob]

Hes a fuckin dick.
He needs to own his decision to buy it rather than blame the seller for his mistake.

[Scubbo]

https://frinkiac.com/video/S05E07/WY45ynYNGKelHSGx_Q8smwdeyQk=.gif

[breakaway]

As long as you are not "in trade" i.e. a private seller then the rule of Caveat Emptor prevails. I would have included something in your bill of sale (remember we don't have "title" or "ownership papers" here) along the lines of it is sold as inspected and no warranty is expressed or implied. It isnt a long document but I did one that saved a client's arse in context of a $130000 racecar.

The most important question is: Did you get paid? you don't say, just that the buyer was bringing round cash. Did he?

I think I would email the buyer and say "you viewed it, you stated you were happy, you paid me in cash money, and you signed a piece of paper confirming no reg/wof. I dont accept any liability and will not be entering into any further correspondence." He might go apeshit. In which case you have his name and address (right?) and can alert the po po to his threats of vilence.

I am of course taking you at your word that it wasn't an utter pig and that you didnt rip the guy off.....

In terms of his legal remedies, he is on the back foot chasing with not much recourse. You might have to go to the Disputes Tribunal at some point. It can be a lottery but preparation is the key.

The downside of course is this guy knows where you live....

No, I didn't include in the document that no warranty is implied or given. I thought this is a given with private sales. I was honest & truthful in describing the condition of the bike in every respect, even denying his requests to take a bank payment for the bike, insisting that he see it before he make the final decision to hand over the cash. Like I said I even had an honest discussion with him about me being misled in the past and how tricky buying out of town could be. Basically, I went out of my way to make sure he had all the data before making his decision. I absolutely did not deliberately misrepresent anything.

Yes - I did get paid. He has not actually made any demands just yet. Just keeps throwing a laundry list of complaints at me.

I also neglected to mention that in January this year I got a new set of tyres + front pads and I have not ridden it much since then due to aforementioned injuries. I expect if there was an issue with the fork seals, it'd have been picked up on that day (I originally only went in for a tyre change, but they showed me my pads were super low so I had them do the pads as well).

[sidecar bob]

Unfortunately this idiot's parents didnt teach him to own the consequences of his behaviour.
Sadly this task now lies with you.
Please stand your ground.

[F5 Dave]

I didn't read this fully as there is a lot of words and its Friday night. Heck maybe it's Saturday. Anyway alcohol.

Buy the guy some piss and say dude I entered the arrangement with honest intentions. I'm assuming you did. Maybe the gesture will impress upon him you weren't trying to rip him off.

I've always said to buyers if you have any problems, let us know. No recourse so far. Shows you are honest.

Actually I did end up following a bike i sold to a mate that started smoking heinously. I could see myself elbows deep in a 1050 engine. Fortunately it was just his panniers and sneakers that got burnt up.

[OddDuck]

+1 to everything above. It's a private sale. Attend while wearing big boy pants, simple as that.

He's trying to get you to take it back. You don't have to. You're also perfectly within your rights to tell him he's bought it, end of story, and then simply block communications. I don't know this purchaser but I'd guess that any response to his complaints (reasonable or not) will simply encourage him.

Unfortunately it's sounding a lot like this guy isn't reasoning clearly (severe OCD or something maybe?) so you might have yourself a pretty serious problem... on the first demand he makes, or threat, I'd 105 and have a chat with the Plod. If he's genuine trouble then they'll know him.

[caseye]

Assuming the bike was in good nick, he has no leg to stand on, tell him to piss off and go cry somewhere else.
I've sold shit on Tardme for years, have no bad reps and 100% sales, it's about being up front, but you don't back off either, if you sold a good bike, be prepared to say so and stand by it.
These sorts of fools exist.
Block his number and carry one.
:oi-grr:

[Ian Staples]

just do not reply. do not enter any discussions at all . If the bike has no wof then he should not be surprised to find something wrong. and if he's complaining about chain tension and oil level then he is a cock, simple as that

[pete376403]

Chain tension, oil levels and the like would be a normal owner maintenance item anyway.

[sidecar bob]

What does this Turkey actually want?
Does he want you to take the bike back for a full refund?
Does he want a small portion of his money back?
Does he want someone to whine to?
Ask him what the purpose of these communications are so you can respond accordingly.

[breakaway]

Well the plot has thickened. Buyer has now come back saying that a range of items on the bike are faulty and he wants a partial refund to fix them "or he will be showing up at my door for a full refund and cost of fuel".

He's also made some thinly veiled threats about how he "is not a nice guy" sometimes. I googled his name, what came up leads me to believe he may just make good on these threats. As HenryDorset pointed out, the guy knows where I live. He originally wanted to meet at a petrol station but I said nah flag that too much hassle and had him come around to my house. I did the trade with "Honest Intentions", to quote F5.

I have logged it with police (who told me to ring CAB and not answer the door if he turns up - real helpful) and advised him that I don't know about any of these supposed faults with the bike. Also referred him to DT if he really feels that I tried to pull one on him, I'm prepared to argue my position as it was 100% truthful. Although, I am concerned this gentleman may attempt "extra legal" measures.

[sidecar bob]

So hes going to show up & demand a refund plus fuel? Sounds fanciful.
He should put down the crack pipe.

[Katman]

The fork seals could well be leaking. It's not unusual for them to start leaking when the bike has sat unused for a lengthy period.

I'm not saying it's your place to fix them but it's also not unheard of for people to wipe up leaking fork oil prior to a sale.

I often have people trying to hide leaking fork seals from me when it comes to warrant time.

[breakaway]

It is also a possibility the fork seals have been damaged by being tied down too tight on the trailer. I can definitely attest to there being no issue the night before it was picked up, which is the last time I went over it closely. I guess at the end of the day its my word against his.

His most recent communications are now alluding to the cable tie that was on the front fork being placed there unscrupulously (by me) to "try and stop the leak".

And brake pads that in all likelihood have less than 1000 km on them are allegedly "too thin".

Asking if the windscreen being tinted is a problem for wof.

Messaging me all hours of day and night about how excited they are to pick up the bike.

Do you see a pattern here?

[Katman]

Do you see a pattern here?

Yes, but I suspect it's not the pattern you're hoping I'm seeing.

[onearmedbandit]

I've removed the personal attacks from this thread. Leave them off the site thanks.

[Kickaha]

He's also made some thinly veiled threats about how he "is not a nice guy"


That alone would make me tell him to go fuck himself

[Gremlin]

If I remember correctly (as I'm about to try and sell a bike) any bike (or vehicle) sold with a WOF more than a month old is should be sold as is where is: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/buying-and-selling-a-vehicle/selling-a-vehicle/

He also had a chance to inspect upon pickup, and private sales are not governed by all the rules dealers have to abide by (including warranties). There are avenues around, you ride it away and it blows up on you, but not seal leaks, oil low etc. It has to be substantial, where the seller would have mis-represented the bike upon sale.

[breakaway]

What does sold “as is” mean. If it means the listing should mention that then it wasn’t the case. One because of my assumption that this is the case by default for private sales and two because I had in the listing that I’d sort out wof & reg for a prospective buyer should they want me to. See, at that time I had no reason to believe it would fail, because I’d done fuck all km on it since the last wof which it flew through.

[Gremlin]

Simply as it says... what you see is what you get. No warranties, rights etc. Now, if the vehicle was mis-represented, or you lied about the condition, you're not going to get out of it that simply by saying, it was listed as is.
Much the same way that when you signed for a courier delivery (well, used to) you're accepting the goods as undamaged etc (except who opens straight away?)

If you clearly stated no reg, no wof then it's pretty self explanatory, and he's signed (plus price usually reflects that anyway). Keep any paper trail / communication (especially about you suggesting he get it checked, or checks it) as it will be needed should it get legal.
You've also got a signed doc from him (good), and make sure it includes stuff like he owns in full, no money owing etc. This is useful because if he doesn't complete the change of ownership (or you), then it hasn't finished changing hands, and you're liable for fines etc. The paperwork is easy proof that you have indeed sold.

Otherwise, he collected, so had ample chance to check it. It's a 15yo bike, he can't expect it's right off the showroom floor in spotless condition (nor would he have paid that price anyway).

Unfortunately re the threats, part of dealing with the idiots in society (again, document all proof). Other option is selling on behalf through a dealership (yes, they take a cut), or trading it. Pros and cons.

[neels]

I've had the same issue a couple of times.

First one was a guy that turned up on the doorstep a few days after buying a car who told us it blew up a few hundred metres up the road from our house the day he bought it. The fact that I'd seen it being driven on the way to/from work for the previous few days led me to the conclusion he was talking bullshit. So I politely told him to go away.

Second time was selling an older bike, guy was super keen to take it away and didn't seem too interested in listening to anything I had to tell him about the bike, just started it up as instructed and rode away. A couple of weeks later while I was away overseas I start getting messages (that cost me money to receive) that there's something wrong with it and it won't go. After offering to come around and have a look for him when I got home to help him out, he then told me that he'd pulled the thing to bits looking for the problem, at which point I politely told him to go away.

The world is full of people who are idiots, and people who will blatantly tell lies to your face, although they will talk it up generally firmly and politely telling them to go away seems to work.

[Navy Boy]

I guess that your experience highlights the potential pitfalls of buying/selling on TradeMe. Thus far when selling or buying bikes on TM I've been quite fortunate but there's always one who'll try and spoil it for the rest as the saying goes...

As others have said - Stand your ground and keep all proof of all communications with this individual. :mellow:

[layton]

Chain tension, oil levels and the like would be a normal owner maintenance item anyway.

This .

I thought doing a full service was normal? Forks, oil, swing arm linkages ect ect ect ~ and doing these jobs you normally find a list of parts that need replacing or are on there way out. Tell the guy politely he should of satisfied himself with the bike prior to paying for it and taking it away.

Farrrrk em.

[roogazza]

you have the money, notify NZTA as to disposal ,job done !!!

This example is why I always trade in with a dealer these days. You pay a little more of course but its done and dusted in one . :msn-wink:

[F5 Dave]

You could always ask him to come and work it out in bed:love:
You'll get one last tirade of abuse and never hear from him again.


But if he does show up. . . Um, start coughing and claim you just got back from Sweden.
Good luck.