Roads don't cause crashes- bad driving behaviour does

[MD]

For years we hear people blame our road construction for crashes. It's because of the dangerous twisty roads, the hills, the gullies all used as excuses for crashes. It's the hills fault, it's the narrowness, it's the incline or the decline, the curve or the drop-off at the road side fault.

If only we had long straight roads with perfect visibility for miles then we would all be safe.

Well we do. It's called the Canterbury plains from Christchurch to Timaru and it is the most boring stretch of road ever. Yet so many people seem to be unable to navigate it's deceptive nature.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121951356/three-cars-involved-in-double-fatal-crash-near-ashburton
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300024480/driver-in-critical-condition-after-crashing-into-tree-in-canterbury?rm=a
https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/mid-canterbury-selwyn/120200676/two-vehicle-crash-blocks-state-highway-south-of-christchurch?rm=a
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/121941210/teen-driver-charged-after-canterbury-crash-following-police-pursuit
https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-districts/2-dead-7-injured-crash-near-rakaia

All above on straight roads with clear visibility. Maybe, Just maybe, it's time to focus on driver skills and driver attention. Anyone driving with a phone in their hand should have the phone crushed in front of them on the spot. Second offence, cut off the hand.

From all my years on the road observing crap behaviour, it's crossing the centre line and cutting corners that scares me the most. Yet little educational enforcement seems to be done to address this. Left unchecked it becomes second nature to use both sides of the road whenever it suits.

[Bonez]

If only we had long straight roads with perfect visibility for miles then we would all be safe.

Well we do. It's called the Canterbury plains from Christchurch to Timaru and it is the most boring stretch of road ever. Yet so many people seem to be unable to navigate it's deceptive nature.
.I usually avoid it as much as possible a hug the ranges where ever possible.

[george formby]

All above on straight roads with clear visibility. Maybe, Just maybe, it's time to focus on driver skills and driver attention. Anyone driving with a phone in their hand should have the phone crushed in front of them on the spot. Second offence, cut off the hand.

From all my years on the road observing crap behaviour, it's crossing the centre line and cutting corners that scares me the most. Yet little educational enforcement seems to be done to address this. Left unchecked it becomes second nature to use both sides of the road whenever it suits.

How pertinent. Exactly this behaviour has been grinding my gears lately, too. So many drivers, head down, phone in hand.

Some incompetent prick caused me to swerve off the road mid corner yesterday, as they blithley crossed the centre line straight towards me. Absolutely no attempt to adjust their line.

I want an RPG.:angry2:

Oh, as for dangerous roads. Anyone seen the regular carnage on US interstates?

[toycollector10]

Failing to keep left: For years I have been going on about this and also failing to give way to the right. Admission. Driving in my car south of Kaikoura in the wet I found myself going into an "s" bend too quickly. I instantly checked ahead (no traffic) and decided that rather than try and stay on my own side of the white line and risk losing traction (hydroplaning on a smooth blacktop) and losing control I would cut the corner and straddle the white line. Instantly busted by the Traffic Police. I admitted that I had made a mistake (no excessive speed, though) and the officer let me off with a warning. They're not all bad.

General driving ability: Appalling. The consequence of this is that all road speed limits are set to the absolute lowest ability of the most useless person behind a steering wheel. The byproduct for the government is massive income by way of speeding fines. It's just a game. We're all players and we're being played. Pay up and shut up, it's never going to change.

I believe that all youngsters should be made to spend 6 months on a 50cc scooter prior to obtaining a car driver's license. Motorcycling makes you very, very defensive and aware of what's happening on the road when you don't have a cage around you and that mind set carries on for the rest of your life.

[Bonez]

Wearing a hoody and cap doesn't do much help for ones peripheral vision either.

[george formby]

Failing to keep left: For years I have been going on about this and also failing to give way to the right. Admission. Driving in my car south of Kaikoura in the wet I found myself going into an "s" bend too quickly. I instantly checked ahead (no traffic) and decided that rather than try and stay on my own side of the white line and risk losing traction (hydroplaning on a smooth blacktop) and losing control I would cut the corner and straddle the white line. Instantly busted by the Traffic Police. I admitted that I had made a mistake (no excessive speed, though) and the officer let me off with a warning. They're not all bad.

General driving ability: Appalling. The consequence of this is that all road speed limits are set to the absolute lowest ability of the most useless person behind a steering wheel. The byproduct for the government is massive income by way of speeding fines. It's just a game. We're all players and we're being played. Pay up and shut up, it's never going to change.

I believe that all youngsters should be made to spend 6 months on a 50cc scooter prior to obtaining a car driver's license. Motorcycling makes you very, very defensive and aware of what's happening on the road when you don't have a cage around you and that mind set carries on for the rest of your life.

Dunno about all riders getting the defensive message. I would guestimate that more than 50% of the riders I see up here, on our lovely, twisty roads have a centre line fixation. Sometimes I wonder if the road paint used is magnetic.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Dunno about all riders getting the defensive message. I would guestimate that more than 50% of the riders I see up here, on our lovely, twisty roads have a centre line fixation. Sometimes I wonder if the road paint used is magnetic.

its not just me that thinks that then?

Have you ever noticed video reviews of motorcycles online always show the test rider hugging the centre line? Which side of the road you drive/ride on is immaterial.
It scares me when I watch riders here take a right hand bend with their head hanging over the centre line. Too often I have seen this and watched in amazement as they come too close for comfort with oncoming traffic and then repeat the same mistake 2kms down the road.
Too much reliance on what others do to keep us from dying, road engineers included as per the OP.

[Navy Boy]

its not just me that thinks that then?

Have you ever noticed video reviews of motorcycles online always show the test rider hugging the centre line? Which side of the road you drive/ride on is immaterial.
It scares me when I watch riders here take a right hand bend with their head hanging over the centre line. Too often I have seen this and watched in amazement as they come too close for comfort with oncoming traffic and then repeat the same mistake 2kms down the road.
Too much reliance on what others do to keep us from dying, road engineers included as per the OP.

Yep - This illustrates my point about the campaign against speeding and how inadequate it is. No focus on getting the basics right just the message of 'Slow down and it'll all be OK'.

On the flip side there's some sense being spoken with the NZTA adverts showing the bikers riding along talking about respecting the ride and getting into your flow. I just wish that the existing road code rules were more vigorously applied - That might help... :msn-wink:

[Laava]

Dunno about all riders getting the defensive message. I would guestimate that more than 50% of the riders I see up here, on our lovely, twisty roads have a centre line fixation. Sometimes I wonder if the road paint used is magnetic.
Don't you just line it up with the steering wheel?:clap:

[george formby]

Yep - This illustrates my point about the campaign against speeding and how inadequate it is. No focus on getting the basics right just the message of 'Slow down and it'll all be OK'.

On the flip side there's some sense being spoken with the NZTA adverts showing the bikers riding along talking about respecting the ride and getting into your flow. I just wish that the existing road code rules were more vigorously applied - That might help... :msn-wink:

We have a lovely, big yellow sign just before entering some local twisties. It shows a bike leant over, with Enter wide, Exit tight, written below it. There is some effort going into education.

[Berries]

From all my years on the road observing crap behaviour, it's crossing the centre line and cutting corners that scares me the most. Yet little educational enforcement seems to be done to address this. Left unchecked it becomes second nature to use both sides of the road whenever it suits.
If there is nothing coming and you can see that there is nothing coming then there is no extra risk cutting a corner.

Cue the usual comments about how staying in your lane shows better skills, you don't need to cut corners and how it automatically means you will cut a corner when you cannot see through it. No it doesn't. People who cut corners when they cannot see through them are idiots. They scare me as well.

Guess everyone will be happy when there is wire rope down the middle of every major road to stop it happening. I don't know about you, but if I slightly overcook a left hander I would rather risk going just over the centre line and 99 percent of the time getting away with it than clanking off a barrier that is there 100 percent of the time.

[toycollector10]

If there is nothing coming and you can see that there is nothing coming then there is no extra risk cutting a corner.
Please keep left. You're a danger to yourself and other road users. For example, thirty years ago I started an overtaking manoeuvre thinking I had clear road ahead and unlimited visibility. I was well committed and a car appeared "out of nowhere" from the shadow of some trees and it was nearly a multiple fatality. Keep left and don't cut corners. It's easy.

[nerrrd]

I don't know about you, but if I slightly overcook a left hander I would rather risk going just over the centre line and 99 percent of the time getting away with it than clanking off a barrier that is there 100 percent of the time.

Bear in mind it’s not just you you’re putting at risk, but the poor bugger coming in the opposite direction.

[Gremlin]

If there is nothing coming and you can see that there is nothing coming then there is no extra risk cutting a corner.

Cue the usual comments about how staying in your lane shows better skills, you don't need to cut corners and how it automatically means you will cut a corner when you cannot see through it. No it doesn't. People who cut corners when they cannot see through them are idiots. They scare me as well.

Guess everyone will be happy when there is wire rope down the middle of every major road to stop it happening. I don't know about you, but if I slightly overcook a left hander I would rather risk going just over the centre line and 99 percent of the time getting away with it than clanking off a barrier that is there 100 percent of the time.
Those sorts of casual attitudes towards the oncoming lane are part of the problem. No, there is extra risk, both legal and real to life, and not just your own. I'm sure plenty of people would say, oh, there is no extra risk in doing xyz... until (if they're lucky) they're suddenly campaigning to raise awareness of whatever they did and survived.

Start with following the road rules, because if you're unable to stay in your lane because you "overcook" it, then it's a problem and it's a matter of time before you go from getting away with it, to causing injury/death. Simple example, I sold my first bike to a learner. He ran wide on a corner while learning, there was a 4WD coming the other way. He didn't get another chance.

[OddDuck]

Habits count. When you get tired you'll revert to what you do most often, good or bad. I've had a number of near misses over the years and pretty well all of them were 100% on me... good training and good habits from the start would have prevented most of them but it took me a while to twig.

Nerrd's comment about the poor bugger coming in the opposite direction brings back a memory... Buller Gorge, summertime two-ish years ago... the number of projecting-like-hell oncoming riders (mostly on Harleys or similar) was unreal. I found myself having to stay tight left on left handers by default, there were times when the oncoming rider was half in their lane and half in mine. There were campervans etc too, it isn't that wide a road.

[Berries]

Please keep left. You're a danger to yourself and other road users. For example, thirty years ago I started an overtaking manoeuvre thinking I had clear road ahead and unlimited visibility. I was well committed and a car appeared "out of nowhere" from the shadow of some trees and it was nearly a multiple fatality. Keep left and don't cut corners. It's easy.
So you failed to ensure the road was clear then?



Bear in mind it’s not just you you’re putting at risk, but the poor bugger coming in the opposite direction.
What poor bugger? I try not to overcook a left hand curve and so far have managed not to. Have found it extends your life.



Those sorts of casual attitudes towards the oncoming lane are part of the problem. No, there is extra risk, both legal and real to life, and not just your own.
Nah, I don't understand the risk to other people if it is clear there is nothing coming. And I mean clear, not vehicles hiding in the shadows.



Start with following the road rules, because if you're unable to stay in your lane because you "overcook" it, then it's a problem and it's a matter of time before you go from getting away with it, to causing injury/death.
I said if. The way the roads are going there are going to be median barriers in a lot more places and people who get it wrong will get injured every time if they hit them whereas without them nine times out of ten there will be no oncoming traffic. I am thinking more of the inexperienced guy you sold your bike to than those of us with the experience not to cross the centre line when you cannot see around the corner. And people on Suzuki Boulevards.

[nzspokes]

Nah, I don't understand the risk to other people if it is clear there is nothing coming. And I mean clear, not vehicles hiding in the shadows.



How are you going to see it if its hiding?

What about the car coming out of the drive that thinks its clear?

[Katman]

How are you going to see it if its hiding?

What about the car coming out of the drive that thinks its clear?

You sound like a reformed smoker.

[Bonez]

How are you going to see it if its hiding?

What about the car coming out of the drive that thinks its clear?That can happen if you are on either side of the road. Even in a 50kph zone.

[SaferRides]

I said if. The way the roads are going there are going to be median barriers in a lot more places and people who get it wrong will get injured every time if they hit them whereas without them nine times out of ten there will be no oncoming traffic. I am thinking more of the inexperienced guy you sold your bike to than those of us with the experience not to cross the centre line when you cannot see around the corner. And people on Suzuki Boulevards.
You don't tend to "get it wrong" when you know doing so will maim or kill you. Probably the same reason why people don't cut left hand corners.

[Berries]

How are you going to see it if its hiding?

What about the car coming out of the drive that thinks its clear?
If there is somewhere to hide it is not clear.
If there is a driveway it is not clear.
It's not hard.



You don't tend to "get it wrong" when you know doing so will maim or kill you.
Unfortunately I have been to a few fatal crashes where the rider did get it wrong, crossed the centre line and wiped themselves out against an oncoming vehicle. How many people cross the centre line on the same corner I have no idea, but I can't imagine they were the first, on two wheels or four. Which brings it back to the title of the thread. I am firmly in the group that blames the driver/rider in 95 percent of crashes. But then how do you get certain corners that have a crash history and others that don't? There must be something wrong with the road environment to make so many people mess up in the same place.

[Bonez]

I like the main roads that have "High Crash Area" signs. On my unsuccessful way to Wellywood last weekend I notice a hell of a extra steel cable centre barriers. Didn't feel intimidated whatever compared to some snowflakes. Around a decade or so ago there was a big hugh and cry about them because a rider behaving stupidly got killed by hitting some. Traffic seems to be a lot more sedate around these areas now as well. In fact I found the behavior of 99% of traffic on that trip was fantastic.

[george formby]

If there is somewhere to hide it is not clear.
If there is a driveway it is not clear.
It's not hard.

There must be something wrong with the road environment to make so many people mess up in the same place.

There is a 90o corner at the end of my residential street, clear visibility, two lanes. The vast majority of vehicles taking it as right hander cross the centre line, often completely on the wrong side of the road. The only reason can be thoughtless driving, it's not tight, narrow or surprising. Could be subliminal, there is a big house on the corner and the outside camber is quite pronounced, could just be laziness.

It was pointed out to me on a training course that corners which have a high accident rate, vehicles crossing the centre line, usually have clues as you approach. Damage to the road side furniture, rubber on the road, broken cats eyes and a worn centre line amongst others. Nice little bit of road craft to file away.

The road toll is lower than I would expect given the average lackadaisical attitude of many road users.

[Gremlin]

I like the main roads that have "High Crash Area" signs. On my unsuccessful way to Wellywood last weekend I notice a hell of a extra steel cable centre barriers. Didn't feel intimidated whatever compared to some snowflakes. Around a decade or so ago there was a big hugh and cry about them because a rider behaving stupidly got killed by hitting some. Traffic seems to be a lot more sedate around these areas now as well. In fact I found the behavior of 99% of traffic on that trip was fantastic.
Try losing traction on SH1 (in a straight line at the speed limit) and starting an uncontrollable drift towards the WRB in the centre (installed against advice of minimum distance to live lane)...

[eldog]

Try losing traction on SH1 (in a straight line at the speed limit) and starting an uncontrollable drift towards the WRB in the centre (installed against advice of minimum distance to live lane)...

Not a place I would like to be in.
Having done something similar way under posted limit.
It happens.

Remember back in the old days there used to be multiple crashes involving opposing traffic esp in AKL. Road barriers have reduced a lot of carnage.

On my way south last week past Pokeno. A reasonable section of WRB demolished. Almost straight section of road. Lucky whatever it was didnt make it to the second barrier on the other side of the centre.

[eldog]

There must be something wrong with the road environment to make so many people mess up in the same place.

Undoubtedly the environment/location/time of day, season/weather, other distractions etc play a part.

On the high risk locations need to find the common factor(s)

[FJRider]

... There must be something wrong with the road environment to make so many people mess up in the same place.

Like at the end of passing lanes you mean ...

or the last corner before a long straight ...

or even any intersection controlled by a give way or stop sign.


All familiar with the road ...

All fully licensed drivers ...

And all swearing the other vehicle "Came out of nowhere" ...

[FJRider]

Undoubtedly the environment/location/time of day, season/weather, other distractions etc play a part.

On the high risk locations need to find the common factor(s)

They DO. A common lowered speed limit for that location.

With VERY large speed limit signs ... and large waning signs that warn of a road "Black spot ahead" ... usually ignored by most "Good" drivers ...

[FJRider]

What about the car coming out of the drive that thinks its clear?

I've seen more than a few accidents ... where a vehicle coming out of a driveway on an open road ... turning left and checking to the right. But getting clobbered by a overtaking vehicle coming FROM their left.

Main highways ... and some back roads. Locals in their (quiet) local areas.

[Bonez]

I've seen more than a few accidents ... where a vehicle coming out of a driveway on an open road ... turning left and checking to the right. But getting clobbered by a overtaking vehicle coming FROM their left.

Main highways ... and some back roads. Locals in their (quiet) local areas.I was almost taken out by a young lady drive the weekend before last on a gravel road. She didn't look EITHER way just drove straight out of the drive way. It was damn close. I had flash backs of 1986 when I was T-boned in a 50km zone in Waipakurau.

[FJRider]

You don't tend to "get it wrong" when you know doing so will maim or kill you. Probably the same reason why people don't cut left hand corners.

But they DO ... On a VERY regular basis.

They are a good driver ... and it was an accident. NOT THEIR FAULT ... and they tell the attending Police Officer exactly that.

In most cases a SINGLE vehicle accident (for want of a better [more PC .. ??] word ... if there is one).

[FJRider]

I was almost taken out by a young lady drive the weekend before last on a gravel road. She didn't look EITHER way just drove straight out of the drive way. It was damn close. I had flash backs of 1986 when I was T-boned in a 50km zone in Waipakurau.

Yep it happens ... and then they give YOU the finger ... go figure ...

[SaferRides]

But they DO ... On a VERY regular basis.

They are a good driver ... and it was an accident. NOT THEIR FAULT ... and they tell the attending Police Officer exactly that.

In most cases a SINGLE vehicle accident (for want of a better [more PC .. ??] word ... if there is one).I was meaning the median barriers. I expect most motorcyclists make a real effort to avoid them.

There should be more emphasis on the importance of keeping left in road safety campaigns. I see far too many drivers, and motorcyclists, whose default road position on RH corners is over the centreline if they think nothing is coming.

[nerrrd]

There should be more emphasis on the importance of keeping left in road safety campaigns. I see far too many drivers, and motorcyclists, whose default road position on RH corners is over the centreline if they think nothing is coming.

Good luck with that, try turning left at any uncontrolled T intersection in suburban Auckland at the same time as someone is turning right into the same road, they’ll be on your side of the road (and expecting you to slow down to wait for them to complete their turn through your lane). Those that stick to their side of the road are the exception.

[MD]

Good luck with that, try turning left at any uncontrolled T intersection in suburban Auckland at the same time as someone is turning right into the same road, they’ll be on your side of the road (and expecting you to slow down to wait for them to complete their turn through your lane). Those that stick to their side of the road are the exception.

Yeah it was thinking about this sort of sloppy inconsiderate driving that seems to be everywhere these days that set me off with this thread. I ride the Paekakariki Hill a fair bit and it is shit scary for lazy corner cutters. Luckily you quickly learn which corners will be cut- ALL OF THEM. Funny 90% of them coming at me on my side of the road are in SUVs or Utes or white van man. Those vehicle types must have useless steering designs.

Those of us with decades of riding under our belts have the advantage of a more developed six sense to be alert, scan the road and corners ahead, look at the surface condition, spot tell tale signs of a side road or driveway ahead and so on. It was for most of us the school of hard knocks but we survived (so far anyway). But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.

[FJRider]

I was meaning the median barriers. I expect most motorcyclists make a real effort to avoid them.

There should be more emphasis on the importance of keeping left in road safety campaigns. I see far too many drivers, and motorcyclists, whose default road position on RH corners is over the centreline if they think nothing is coming.

When you post
Probably the same reason why people don't cut left hand corners. I wonder about your reasoning that they don't.

Because they do ... and they should be making concerted efforts to avoid other things that might kill them. But it seems they don't.

Even good drivers make mistakes ... watch the top level race drivers and riders ... it happens. but the roads are not (apparently) race track ... roads have far more things to hit if you go off the "Track" ...

The median barriers are a known and visible item that no sane person would ride or drive into intentionally. And motorcyclists generally take great care around them. Few are suicidal enough to risk death by totally ignoring any risk element of the roadside furniture ... or the road layout .. anywhere.

Most will tell you that they do take risks ... based on their skill and experience level ... and most get away with it. Increase the amount of experience and skill levels ... and bigger risks get taken. Again ... most get away with it.

The MOST basic rule in the New Zealand road traffic legislation ... is learnt on day one of learning to ride or drive ... and that is KEEP LEFT.

The biggest traffic rule moan and *555 complaint is about people failing to keep left. The second is slow (aisian) drivers ...

And all the keep left signs should be another reminder ... but rider / driver convenience ... and low risk assessment ... seems to take precedence.

[Viking01]

Yeah it was thinking about this sort of sloppy inconsiderate driving that seems to be everywhere these days that set me off with this thread. I ride the Paekakariki Hill a fair bit and it is shit scary for lazy corner cutters. Luckily you quickly learn which corners will be cut- ALL OF THEM. Funny 90% of them coming at me on my side of the road are in SUVs or Utes or white van man. Those vehicle types must have useless steering designs.

Those of us with decades of riding under our belts have the advantage of a more developed six sense to be alert, scan the road and corners ahead, look at the surface condition, spot tell tale signs of a side road or driveway ahead and so on. It was for most of us the school of hard knocks but we survived (so far anyway). But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.

Very good. I enjoyed your observations re (i) the Paekakariki Hill Road and (ii) SUV - Ute - White Van Man. Absolutely on the money.

But even if we weren't discussing the Paekakariki Hill Road, can I make a few observations as well ?



Our younger son "acquired" my car ( a separate story), so we're back to being a "one car" family again - and me being a passenger more often. So I get to watch the wife's driving (she is solely a car driver) plus that of various friends - and to contrast their driving styles with my own (being both a car driver and a motorcycle rider).

Doing trips over the Rimutakas to the Wairarapa now and then, the wife invariably gives me the keys and says "you drive". Why ? Because "the road is narrow, and it twists and turns a lot", and "I always feel more comfortable when you drive the hill roads". Well, yes, the road does "twist and turn" a little, but there is little issue with the road width or its general condition.

When (on the odd occasion) she has done the driving over that leg, she has often turned into right-hand corners "too early" and put a tyre across the white line. So, to me, part of the "issue" with corners seems to be with steering them more confidently.

And I can't help feeling that this is due to car drivers generally not having to choose a "steering line" on approach, and not using a "vanishing point" methodology. I don't think that they are taught to do so during their formal driver training, and if so, I think that it is to their disadvantage.

I make the contrast when driving the Rimutakas in our car vs when riding it on my motorcycle.

Assume a blind right-hand bend, clean road conditions, and dual (LH and RH) wheel-tracks within my lane. Ignore difference in mass of vehicles, balance, traction, road camber, counter-steering for the moment.

On the motorcycle, throughout the whole corner-turning exercise (approach, turn and exit), I'm always very conscious of the "line" that I'm going to steer. I will almost always be positioned in a "left hand wheel track" coming up to the bend, and as the "vanishing point" dictates, I will slow as needed, make my turn and exit.

But I do find a right-hand corner to be a slightly different proposition when driving the car.

Firstly, driving position and line.

The car driver - sitting in the right-hand wheel position - always drives that line. No additional thinking is required. They will generally move off-line (left or right) only when compelled to (e.g. avoid a pot-hole or road debris). Whereas the motorcycle rider has learned to use the full width of the lane, and may choose to use a left-of-lane or centre-of-lane position (as opposed to staying in a right-of-lane position).

Secondly, but maybe more important, vanishing point.

I still use the "vanishing point" methodology when turning corners in the car.

Two reasons:
1. My speed is generally adjusted well prior to turn-in, and it makes me (comfortable to) position more towards the left-of-lane on corner entry.
2. Turning my head helps me "time my turn-in" (even though I don't need to lean or to counter-steer).

So I think it can make a positive difference when driving the car as well.

I'll offer up a few other observations as well:

1. My wife will not drive the Rimutakas at night. I realise it has no street lighting (and can be as black as the Ace of Spades at night), but how is it that I can manage to get us home in the dark ?

Is it something to do with an appreciation of knowing when to turn into a corner (when all the usual reference points are not so visible) ?

2. Both our sons have learned to drive on the hills of Lower Hutt, and in our area, there are several 180 degree bends. When learning to drive a car, these bends gave both sons some bother for a while. When I taught them to use the "vanishing point" (not discussed in any of their formal car driver training) - instead of just "looking straight ahead", suddenly those bends became "easy".

They got their gear and entry speed nailed, and they started steering a safe line around those bends. Problem solved. Maybe the "old man" had a few clues after all ?

3. When following car drivers, I still see too many drivers "seeming to be surprised" when they reach a well sign-posted corner (suddenly "hard on the brakes" and yet - when having brushed off their excess speed - they still "turn in far too early" and "cut the corner").

I'm unsure whether it is laziness or lack of driving technique or some combination thereof, but can't help feeling that formal car driver training (for new drivers) could benefit from some content on steering line and vanishing point.

[Navy Boy]

Yeah it was thinking about this sort of sloppy inconsiderate driving that seems to be everywhere these days that set me off with this thread. I ride the Paekakariki Hill a fair bit and it is shit scary for lazy corner cutters. Luckily you quickly learn which corners will be cut- ALL OF THEM. Funny 90% of them coming at me on my side of the road are in SUVs or Utes or white van man. Those vehicle types must have useless steering designs.

Those of us with decades of riding under our belts have the advantage of a more developed six sense to be alert, scan the road and corners ahead, look at the surface condition, spot tell tale signs of a side road or driveway ahead and so on. It was for most of us the school of hard knocks but we survived (so far anyway). But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.

Lack of following distance is a big bugbear of mine. Just had a big bully boy ute following me at 100-105 Km/hr on SH1 heading into Blenheim today and when I rolled off at a junction he actually started undertaking me... Needless to say he got the required hand signal to tell him what I thought of his actions... :facepalm:

All of this is totally independent of road design - Just a bully trying to overcome deficiencies in other areas...

[FJRider]

But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.

After starting the motorcycle and / or car license program ... right at stage one ... after the basic handling stage ... a lecture on these simple facts on what to expect as a reality on our roads. Some may have already noticed.

By my observations ... a very large portion of the national road toll is caused simply by failing to give way.

Speed is often touted as the killer ... (and it certainly will not help in any accident situation) but usually it is just (for want of a better word) a factor in the accident. Not WHY it happened.

[FJRider]

1. My wife will not drive the Rimutakas at night. I realise it has no street lighting (and can be as black as the Ace of Spades at night), but how is it that I can manage to get us home in the dark ?

Is it something to do with an appreciation of knowing when to turn into a corner (when all the usual reference points are not so visible) ?

At night ... some people simply don't know where to look. You go where you look ... and the white line on the left edge of the road is the best place to watch. As long as you stay to the right of that left hand side line ... you'll still be on the road. On a bike or in a car. If you look at the headlights approaching ... odds are you'll head that way. The yellow signs tell you the shape of the corners (usually) and recommended speeds. Familiarity with the roads involved helps ... but you need the picture in your head of the corner layout and severity ... to match what you can actually see.

The "Vanishing Point" at night (on corners) is your front bumper.


2. Both our sons have learned to drive on the hills of Lower Hutt, and in our area, there are several 180 degree bends. When learning to drive a car, these bends gave both sons some bother for a while. When I taught them to use the "vanishing point" (not discussed in any of their formal car driver training) - instead of just "looking straight ahead", suddenly those bends became "easy".

They got their gear and entry speed nailed, and they started steering a safe line around those bends. Problem solved. Maybe the "old man" had a few clues after all ?

Just the same as a motorcycle ... you go where you look.


3. When following car drivers, I still see too many drivers "seeming to be surprised" when they reach a well sign-posted corner (suddenly "hard on the brakes" and yet - having brushed off their excess speed - they still "turn in far too early" and "cut the corner").

It does help to note the recommended speed (on that sign) for that corner. Some degree of driving ability and experience helps too.

Disregard the lack of either at your peril.


I'm unsure whether it is laziness or lack of driving technique or some combination thereof, but can't help feeling that formal car driver training (for new drivers) could benefit from some content on steering line and vanishing point.

A 10 star safety rated vehicle ... is recommended for these people. Don't overthink it.

[FJRider]

... All of this is totally independent of road design - Just a bully trying to overcome deficiencies in other areas...

Nah ... with the time it takes to get them up to speed ... they are reluctant to button off.

I like to piss them off by braking early.

But thats just me ... :lol:

[eldog]

Nah ... with the time it takes to get them up to speed ... they are reluctant to button off.

I like to piss them off by braking early.

But thats just me ... :lol:

sounds good.

I find a place to let them pass, often to accelerate directly into the cause of the slow traffic.
sometimes it’s me being careful. I don’t need extra stress:cool:

[Swoop]

The "road" is entirely neutral. It isn't dangerous.

The skills of the "operator" are the primary cause of accidents, but gubbinment refuses to accept that fact.




As for staying on the left side of the white line... Sadly we even see this on episodes of Top Gear, where the "drivers" fail to keep on one side of the road.

[scumdog]

Dunno about all riders getting the defensive message. I would guestimate that more than 50% of the riders I see up here, on our lovely, twisty roads have a centre line fixation. Sometimes I wonder if the road paint used is magnetic.

Some think they're driving a slot car the way they straddle the centre-line..

Head-ons would be a rarity if everybody would stick to their own side of the road, how hard can it be to keep left?

And wear seatbetlts

And not faff around with a bloody phone

And...well you get the picture.

Bring back the black & whites I say!:woohoo:

[scumdog]

Lack of following distance is a big bugbear of mine. Just had a big bully boy ute following me at 100-105 Km/hr on SH1 heading into Blenheim today and when I rolled off at a junction he actually started undertaking me... Needless to say he got the required hand signal to tell him what I thought of his actions... :facepalm:

All of this is totally independent of road design - Just a bully trying to overcome deficiencies in other areas...


I've been the unfortunate passenger of such people - and after suggesting dropping back got a "Oh, right" and they did drop back.

Then a K or so down the road the gap once again closed up.

some people are just unaware of their driving deficiencies.:facepalm:

[Berries]

As for staying on the left side of the white line... Sadly we even see this on episodes of Top Gear, where the "drivers" fail to keep on one side of the road.
I am sure someone with more recent experience than me can correct me but growing up in the UK I don’t think they were as anal as they are over here about cutting corners. It was not uncommon to hear the phrase that as they had paid to use the road they would use the full road. This is partly behind my reasoning for happily cutting a right hand corner if I can see clearly that it is safe to do so. Failure to remain in the correct lane was not an offence in the UK like it is here, at least back then.

Happy to be corrected, but like Top Gear, that’s the way we did it.

[Navy Boy]

I am sure someone with more recent experience than me can correct me but growing up in the UK I don’t think they were as anal as they are over here about cutting corners. It was not uncommon to hear the phrase that as they had paid to use the road they would use the full road. This is partly behind my reasoning for happily cutting a right hand corner if I can see clearly that it is safe to do so. Failure to remain in the correct lane was not an offence in the UK like it is here, at least back then.

Happy to be corrected, but like Top Gear, that’s the way we did it.

You're not wrong - When doing my IAM training in the UK one of our members/instructors was a serving Police Officer with experience in road policing/pursuit driving. His line was that if you can see your way clear then it can help you make safe progress. However there was always the caveat that if in doubt don't do it.

Down my way Queen Charlotte Drive is a classic example of this sort of thing. People cut the corners regularly and often so you've always got to be aware that it may happen. It's still a fantastic road though ;)

[Swoop]

I am sure someone with more recent experience than me can correct me but growing up in the UK I don’t think they were as anal as they are over here about cutting corners. It was not uncommon to hear the phrase that as they had paid to use the road they would use the full road.

That might be so, but when a vehicle is not seen "he came out of nowhere...". As motorcyclists we already see too much of that mentality.

[Blackbird]

You're not wrong - When doing my IAM training in the UK one of our members/instructors was a serving Police Officer with experience in road policing/pursuit driving. His line was that if you can see your way clear then it can help you make safe progress. However there was always the caveat that if in doubt don't do it.

Down my way Queen Charlotte Drive is a classic example of this sort of thing. People cut the corners regularly and often so you've always got to be aware that it may happen. It's still a fantastic road though ;)

Yep, "straight lining" a bend sequence was an acceptable practice when I lived there. Road conditions were generally a bit different too. Couldn't say what the standard of driving is like now in the UK. I'm quite comfortable with the "no crossing the white line" here and building it into muscle memory. The Coromandel-Thames coast road is like Queen Charlotte Drive by the numbers who cross the white line. Have seen more than my share of near misses on it and would hate to see a relaxing of the rules as many wouldn't understand the "if in doubt, don't do it" caveat :angry:

[Berries]

That might be so.....
Just explaining why you might see it on Top Gear and not on Shortland Street.

[scumdog]

Yep, "straight lining" a bend sequence was an acceptable practice when I lived there. Road conditions were generally a bit different too. Couldn't say what the standard of driving is like now in the UK. I'm quite comfortable with the "no crossing the white line" here and building it into muscle memory. The Coromandel-Thames coast road is like Queen Charlotte Drive by the numbers who cross the white line. Have seen more than my share of near misses on it and would hate to see a relaxing of the rules as many wouldn't understand the "if in doubt, don't do it" caveat :angry:


Great last line!

How many drivers/riders who crossed the centre-line into a head on crash who survived the crash said afterwards "oh yeah, I saw the oncoming car/truck/bike but thought I'd cross to the wrong side of the road anyway"

Invariably in my experience it's "Shit I didn't see him coming".

And therein lies the problem in NZ.

[SaferRides]

The other problem with cutting a corner is the risk it poses to someone trying to overtake. Twice recently I've been about overtake on a RH corner where there was good visibility when the driver cut the corner.

Please, stay on your side of the road. It's simple enough to do and could save someone's life, maybe even your own.

[caspernz]

Yep, "straight lining" a bend sequence was an acceptable practice when I lived there. Road conditions were generally a bit different too. Couldn't say what the standard of driving is like now in the UK. I'm quite comfortable with the "no crossing the white line" here and building it into muscle memory. The Coromandel-Thames coast road is like Queen Charlotte Drive by the numbers who cross the white line. Have seen more than my share of near misses on it and would hate to see a relaxing of the rules as many wouldn't understand the "if in doubt, don't do it" caveat :angry:

Situational awareness and forward observation is generally poor in the average NZ driver/rider. An example being an emergency vehicle coming up from behind on a motorway, those flashing lights are visible for ages in your rearview mirror, but if you don't look at them...
Low aim steering and tunnel vision are just examples of poor driver education, need I say more :eek5:



Great last line!

How many drivers/riders who crossed the centre-line into a head on crash who survived the crash said afterwards "oh yeah, I saw the oncoming car/truck/bike but thought I'd cross to the wrong side of the road anyway"

Invariably in my experience it's "Shit I didn't see him coming".

And therein lies the problem in NZ.

It's been a repeated theme in much of my coaching, a lead rider pointing out something up close for me to take heed of, when I'd already seen it several seconds earlier. Then when I ask about something 12-15 seconds ahead, such as a logging truck coming down a ridge towards a tight bend where we're going to arrive together...most often the lead rider hasn't even scanned that far ahead. Low aim steering and tunnel vision comes to mind again :innocent:



The other problem with cutting a corner is the risk it poses to someone trying to overtake. Twice recently I've been about overtake on a RH corner where there was good visibility when the driver cut the corner.

Please, stay on your side of the road. It's simple enough to do and could save someone's life, maybe even your own.

If you're regularly in the habit of initiating an overtake whilst in a right hand bend, congrats my good man, russian roulette on a motorcycle :2thumbsup
There's nothing wrong with scanning ahead and planning the overtake using a right hand bend, but initiating the overtake before the vehicle ahead has come out of the curve...not overly clever.


The thing that always bemuses me, when the topic of dangerous roads is tossed about, why is it that so many roads are traveled regularly by so many without issue yet a holiday period will see a disproportionate rise in accidents?
Driver education is one factor, let's leave it at that :brick:

[SaferRides]

If you're regularly in the habit of initiating an overtake whilst in a right hand bend, congrats my good man, russian roulette on a motorcycle :2thumbsup
There's nothing wrong with scanning ahead and planning the overtake using a right hand bend, but initiating the overtake before the vehicle ahead has come out of the curve...not overly clever.


The thing that always bemuses me, when the topic of dangerous roads is tossed about, why is it that so many roads are traveled regularly by so many without issue yet a holiday period will see a disproportionate rise in accidents?
Driver education is one factor, let's leave it at that :brick:
No, I don't do it regularly and I wait until I know they are keeping left. I doubt I'd still be posting here otherwise given how many people do cut corners!

Most people driving on state highways and rural roads either commute or drive for work. They are usually on their own, know the roads well and the only distraction is their phone.

Come the school holidays, and you have cars with passengers on roads they rarely travel in conditions they are not used to and driving when fatigued. I'm sure there are other factors, but that's a start.

[caspernz]

No, I don't do it regularly and I wait until I know they are keeping left. I doubt I'd still be posting here otherwise given how many people do cut corners!

Most people driving on state highways and rural roads either commute or drive for work. They are usually on their own, know the roads well and the only distraction is their phone.

Come the school holidays, and you have cars with passengers on roads they rarely travel in conditions they are not used to and driving when fatigued. I'm sure there are other factors, but that's a start.

Fair enough on your first point.

On the second one, familiarity also breeds contempt, apart from statistics it's a contributing factor why many crash close to home. Stopping distance being beyond the limit point often the problem.

On the last one it's simply not driving to the conditions, you've used some factors that make up failing to drive to the conditions. Often as simple as too much speed, not enough distance to stop in, not looking far enough ahead. Absolutely nothing to do with the road itself, all human factors. Yes I know I'm oversimplifying here :bleh:

[Bonez]

Fair enough on your first point.

On the second one, familiarity also breeds contempt, apart from statistics it's a contributing factor why many crash close to home. Stopping distance being beyond the limit point often the problem.

On the last one it's simply not driving to the conditions, you've used some factors that make up failing to drive to the conditions. Often as simple as too much speed, not enough distance to stop in, not looking far enough ahead. Absolutely nothing to do with the road itself, all human factors. Yes I know I'm oversimplifying here :bleh:Spot on man. That has been my observation as well. I think some folk just over think the issue.:innocent:

[SaferRides]

Absolutely nothing to do with the road itself, all human factors. Yes I know I'm oversimplifying here :bleh:
Yes, I'd agree that you are oversimplifying!

[Navy Boy]

Fair enough on your first point.

On the second one, familiarity also breeds contempt, apart from statistics it's a contributing factor why many crash close to home. Stopping distance being beyond the limit point often the problem.

On the last one it's simply not driving to the conditions, you've used some factors that make up failing to drive to the conditions. Often as simple as too much speed, not enough distance to stop in, not looking far enough ahead. Absolutely nothing to do with the road itself, all human factors. Yes I know I'm oversimplifying here :bleh:

I think another factor to do with your last point Rob is that during School holidays people are often driving on unfamiliar roads over unfamiliar distances. In other words if your driving/riding normally consists of going to work and back and you then drive for 3 hours to a different-than-normal destination then a bad outcome is always more likely. People not used to driving at motorway speeds for any length of time too doesn't help. Often during commuting time outside of school holidays people are generally more alert.

These factors combined with a potentially tricky road design/layout can often be a dangerous combination I reckon. Going in and out of Wellington in recent weeks post lockdown has been an interesting time. It appears to me that normal service has just about resumed now - At least during the times I'm on the roads (0600-0630 and 1600-1640) at any rate.

[FJRider]

Yes, I'd agree that you are oversimplifying!

It doesn't make his post untrue though ... but if unfamiliar roads are encountered by by this "Holiday traffic" drivers ... the first step for an intelligent driver is to slow down.

They don't ... ;)

Some crash.

Preventable .... yep.

But it was an accident.


it wasn't their fault ... Apparently ...

[caspernz]

I think another factor to do with your last point Rob is that during School holidays people are often driving on unfamiliar roads over unfamiliar distances. In other words if your driving/riding normally consists of going to work and back and you then drive for 3 hours to a different-than-normal destination then a bad outcome is always more likely. People not used to driving at motorway speeds for any length of time too doesn't help. Often during commuting time outside of school holidays people are generally more alert.

These factors combined with a potentially tricky road design/layout can often be a dangerous combination I reckon. Going in and out of Wellington in recent weeks post lockdown has been an interesting time. It appears to me that normal service has just about resumed now - At least during the times I'm on the roads (0600-0630 and 1600-1640) at any rate.

Absolutely agree Lee. Thing is though, most incidents that I've witnessed over past 30 years have the common factors of poor skills and/or discipline, often mixed with high aggression. The combination of following too close whilst going too fast for the conditions, distracted or impaired, not buckled up...heck, you'll be seeing the same stuff :brick:

[FJRider]

The other problem with cutting a corner is the risk it poses to someone trying to overtake. Twice recently I've been about overtake on a RH corner where there was good visibility when the driver cut the corner.

Please, stay on your side of the road. It's simple enough to do and could save someone's life, maybe even your own.

So ... it's OK for YOU to cut the corner to overtake ... but not OK for the car ahead of you to shorten their journey by cutting the corner ... ???

Remember the onus is on the overtaking driver to do it safely. If you collided with that vehicle .... YOU would be held at fault.



It might be time to change your thinking ... AND your user name ... :blank: