CBTA Restricted (automatic) fail.

[nzbikeguy]

I took my CBTA R test last week, and everything was going well (other than the weather, it was raining, visibility wasn't great). Did all the urban assessment no problem, u-turns, parking, roundabouts, intersections, giveways & stops. All good.

Got on the open road, hit some road works, temporary traffic lights. Again all good.

As we're coming back from the open/country road into a township (Kumeu, Auckland) we come up to a traffic light ahead maybe 40-50m ahead. There is a railway crossing before the traffic light. The traffic light has gone red just as I get to the railway crossing so I stop before crossing as there is a car & trailer on the other side of the crossing, between the crossing and red light.

I see there's space behind the trailer, so I cross the railway (no crossing lights or barrier, no train etc) and stop behind the trailer.

This was an automatic fail from the instructor.

I ask why, and I'm told the "do not pass a red light" rule.

I don't quite understand at the time and text the instructor later and I'm told if the traffic light is red, I have to stop at the railway crossing and not pass THOSE red lights- even though the crossing lights are NOT on, its just the traffic lights ahead.

I've tried to find this online (Google, LTSA website, roadcode website) in the road code, cos I've never heard of this rule before for railway crossings (obviously- stop, do not cross, do not race the train. red lights going just stop).

Does anyone know or can cite this somewhere for me that would be super helpful :D

Thanks.

[caseye]

Methinks he was lining the companies pockets, if the railway lights are flashing,OBVIOUSLY you'd stop.
I believe he's wrong. Just my opinion.:weep:
Better instructor:tugger:next time aye.

[Moi]

If this is the intersection in question, Tawa Rd onto Main Rd, Kumeu, looking at this streetview from Google maps would suggest you went against a red traffic light which is situated on the western side of the railway line when you crossed the railway line and got onto the end of the queue at the other side. There are further traffic lights on the eastern side of the railway line as well.

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.7770535,174.5568523,3a,75y,358h,78.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smt7bxOPrsmMxgtDdXqnZyg!2e0!5s2 0200101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

It's probably one of those situations where a "Stop Here When Lights Are Red" sign on the western side traffic lights would remove any chance of ambiguity.

[Jeeper]

It does sound like that set of traffic lights. And yes it's confusing. But looks like OP crossed the railway track and ignored the very first set of traffic lights.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

[jellywrestler]

red lights as plain as day in the google image, they've put a set there for a reason, and clearly you ran a red light, suck it up and stop whinging.

[Berries]

There is a railway crossing before the traffic light.
That is one messed up intersection with two limit lines. Can see why it is confusing but if the light is red you would stop where the Conroys van is in the linked image. You said however that the rail line is before the traffic signal which is not strictly true if this is the intersection in question.

Basically in the direction shown there are two controlled intersections, the first before the rail line and the second after, presumably showing the very same signal. Makes no sense to me having that primary aspect prior to the rail crossing but then hey, Auckland.


I don't quite understand at the time and text the instructor later and I'm told if the traffic light is red, I have to stop at the railway crossing and not pass THOSE red lights- even though the crossing lights are NOT on, its just the traffic lights ahead
I've bolded some words. Should have been if the traffic light is red you stop at the limit line and don't pass THAT red light. To some extent the rail crossing is irrelevant as those lights were not flashing but then that is clearly the reason for the non-standard layout. No doubt too many dickheads queuing back over the railway line when it does start flashing.

Bad luck, move on, you'll know next time. Would suggest before your next test you talk this through with the examiner in case you go that way again and the lights change. Would be surprised if there are many other intersections around the country with signals laid out that way. It's a bit Mickey Mouse if you ask me.

[FJRider]

red lights as plain as day in the google image, they've put a set there for a reason, and clearly you ran a red light, suck it up and stop whinging.

I'd say a few truck and trailer units have been caught there in the past. Probably a few cars caught there too.

That line painted across the road before the rail crossing is there for a reason.

And regardless of rule of law ... if the tester say's you've failed ... you can rest assured that you have DEFINITLY failed. They have the authority to make that decision.

[Moi]

That is one messed up intersection...It's a bit Mickey Mouse if you ask me.

If you want a few others that are "interesting" railway level crossings on the Western line, look for:

1. Normanby Rd crossing
2. Morningside Drive crossing
3. Asquith Avenue crossing
4. Woodward Rd crossing
5. Ranui Station crossing

The subbies don't go as far as Kumeu but where they do operate, the morning and evening peaks there are trains every 10 minutes... makes for interesting level crossing queues, especially Morningside Drive as two trains may cross at Morningside station so you wait for both of them... Asquith Avenue is similar because of Baldwin Avenue station's position just west of Rossgrove Tce.

[nzbikeguy]

If this is the intersection in question, Tawa Rd onto Main Rd, Kumeu, looking at this streetview from Google maps would suggest you went against a red traffic light which is situated on the western side of the railway line when you crossed the railway line and got onto the end of the queue at the other side. There are further traffic lights on the eastern side of the railway line as well.

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.7770535,174.5568523,3a,75y,358h,78.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smt7bxOPrsmMxgtDdXqnZyg!2e0!5s2 0200101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

It's probably one of those situations where a "Stop Here When Lights Are Red" sign on the western side traffic lights would remove any chance of ambiguity.


It does sound like that set of traffic lights. And yes it's confusing. But looks like OP crossed the railway track and ignored the very first set of traffic lights.

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Thank you Moi and Jeeper- you guys nailed it in one! I never even saw those red lights on the day (visibility was terrible- reason, no excuse)- only saw the crossing lights for some reason and the red lights other side of tracks. 100% my fault- I knew it was a fair fail, I just didn't understand why. Now I understand, and won't have any surprises on the next one. Much appreciated.


That is one messed up intersection with two limit lines. Can see why it is confusing but if the light is red you would stop where the Conroys van is in the linked image. You said however that the rail line is before the traffic signal which is not strictly true if this is the intersection in question.

Basically in the direction shown there are two controlled intersections, the first before the rail line and the second after, presumably showing the very same signal. Makes no sense to me having that primary aspect prior to the rail crossing but then hey, Auckland.


I've bolded some words. Should have been if the traffic light is red you stop at the limit line and don't pass THAT red light. To some extent the rail crossing is irrelevant as those lights were not flashing but then that is clearly the reason for the non-standard layout. No doubt too many dickheads queuing back over the railway line when it does start flashing.

Bad luck, move on, you'll know next time. Would suggest before your next test you talk this through with the examiner in case you go that way again and the lights change. Would be surprised if there are many other intersections around the country with signals laid out that way. It's a bit Mickey Mouse if you ask me.

100% - thanks Berries, definitely understand where I went wrong now and will double check with instructor before my re-sit this Sunday!


I'd say a few truck and trailer units have been caught there in the past. Probably a few cars caught there too.

That line painted across the road before the rail crossing is there for a reason.

And regardless of rule of law ... if the tester say's you've failed ... you can rest assured that you have DEFINITLY failed. They have the authority to make that decision.

100% agree with ya; got the info I needed to understand where I went wrong on this one. Tbh the instructor was awesome throughout the pre-training & the test as well; was my bad I couldn't piece it together.

Thanks everyone for helping me understand the situation. Re-sit this Sunday :)

[nzbikeguy]

Not sure where my last reply went to... but


If this is the intersection in question, Tawa Rd onto Main Rd, Kumeu, looking at this streetview from Google maps would suggest you went against a red traffic light which is situated on the western side of the railway line when you crossed the railway line and got onto the end of the queue at the other side. There are further traffic lights on the eastern side of the railway line as well.

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.7770535,174.5568523,3a,75y,358h,78.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smt7bxOPrsmMxgtDdXqnZyg!2e0!5s2 0200101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

It's probably one of those situations where a "Stop Here When Lights Are Red" sign on the western side traffic lights would remove any chance of ambiguity.


It does sound like that set of traffic lights. And yes it's confusing. But looks like OP crossed the railway track and ignored the very first set of traffic lights.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

Thanks Moi and Jeeper- I completely 100% missed even seeing that set of lights :facepalm: visibility was terrible that day (reason, not an excuse), so here I was trying to understand what happened from memory WITHOUT those lights being in the picture.


That is one messed up intersection with two limit lines. Can see why it is confusing but if the light is red you would stop where the Conroys van is in the linked image. You said however that the rail line is before the traffic signal which is not strictly true if this is the intersection in question.

Basically in the direction shown there are two controlled intersections, the first before the rail line and the second after, presumably showing the very same signal. Makes no sense to me having that primary aspect prior to the rail crossing but then hey, Auckland.


I've bolded some words. Should have been if the traffic light is red you stop at the limit line and don't pass THAT red light. To some extent the rail crossing is irrelevant as those lights were not flashing but then that is clearly the reason for the non-standard layout. No doubt too many dickheads queuing back over the railway line when it does start flashing.

Bad luck, move on, you'll know next time. Would suggest before your next test you talk this through with the examiner in case you go that way again and the lights change. Would be surprised if there are many other intersections around the country with signals laid out that way. It's a bit Mickey Mouse if you ask me.

100% agree with ya Berries- totally understand where I went wrong now, def keeping eyes peeled (harder) for my re-sit this Sunday. Thanks a bunch!


I'd say a few truck and trailer units have been caught there in the past. Probably a few cars caught there too.

That line painted across the road before the rail crossing is there for a reason.

And regardless of rule of law ... if the tester say's you've failed ... you can rest assured that you have DEFINITLY failed. They have the authority to make that decision.

100% - to be fair the tester was really cool the whole time, during the training beforehand and the test. I just didn't understand where it went wrong, but all schooled up now.

Thanks everyone for the input and education, helped me understand the situation totally. Much appreciated.

[Berries]

If you want a few others that are "interesting" railway level crossings on the Western line, look for:

1. Normanby Rd crossing
2. Morningside Drive crossing
3. Asquith Avenue crossing
4. Woodward Rd crossing
5. Ranui Station crossing
Pretty sure at least one on that list is used for LCSIA training. It's third world ridiculous if you ask me, having train tracks and roads meeting at the same level and relying on signs or flashing lights. Down here we don't even have a passenger rail service but come 5.05pm every day a train with 500 million shitty spray painted carriages will crawl its way between Dunedin and somewhere south causing huge delays at every crossing and risking the lives of idiots with ipods and stupid drivers at the same time.

It is coming up to Christmas so pretty sure the fuckers will be shunting in and around the centre of Dunedin to cause absolute grid lock. Oh hang on, this isn't the rant thread.......................

[FJRider]

Pretty sure at least one on that list is used for LCSIA training. It's third world ridiculous if you ask me, having train tracks and roads meeting at the same level and relying on signs or flashing lights. Down here we don't even have a passenger rail service but come 5.05pm every day a train with 500 million shitty spray painted carriages will crawl its way between Dunedin and somewhere south causing huge delays at every crossing and risking the lives of idiots with ipods and stupid drivers at the same time.

It is coming up to Christmas so pretty sure the fuckers will be shunting in and around the centre of Dunedin to cause absolute grid lock. Oh hang on, this isn't the rant thread.......................

The St Andrews street and ANZAC Ave crossing is quite similar to the one in this thread. I've seen traffic banked up from the lights and are parked waiting on the rail lines.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-45.8738647,170.5114994,3a,75y,345.48h,72.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saI4kFZpQniX377jjw6xmEg!2e0!7i1 6384!8i8192

[rastuscat]

Not sure where my last reply went to... but





Thanks Moi and Jeeper- I completely 100% missed even seeing that set of lights :facepalm: visibility was terrible that day (reason, not an excuse), so here I was trying to understand what happened from memory WITHOUT those lights being in the picture.



100% agree with ya Berries- totally understand where I went wrong now, def keeping eyes peeled (harder) for my re-sit this Sunday. Thanks a bunch!



100% - to be fair the tester was really cool the whole time, during the training beforehand and the test. I just didn't understand where it went wrong, but all schooled up now.

Thanks everyone for the input and education, helped me understand the situation totally. Much appreciated.

You are a rare breed, accepting that you got it wrong and moving on.

The KB standard is to always insist you are right, even if you're not.

You must be new.

[Moi]

Pretty sure at least one on that list is used for LCSIA training...

What is "LCSIA"?

Found: "Level Crossing Safety Impact Assessments (LCSIA) for Vehicle and Pedestrian Crossings".

As for third world... a bit harsh. Level crossings exist in every country that has railways, just the nature of the beast. At least we have only one, if I have remembered correctly, where the railway runs down the middle of the main street - Kawakawa, BoI - whereas that situation is not uncommon in the USA. It's just that some drivers/riders are still learning to live with level crossings, and for that matter intersections...

[FJRider]

What is "LCSIA"?

As for third world... a bit harsh. Level crossings exist in every country that has railways, just the nature of the beast. At least we have only one, if I have remembered correctly, where the railway runs down the middle of the main street - Kawakawa, BoI - whereas that situation is not uncommon in the USA. It's just that some drivers/riders are still learning to live with level crossings, and for that matter intersections...

In Dunedin itself, there is one main street that has a level crossing (controlled by lights and bells) and a few minor road ones in Port Chalmers. There is one in Mosgiel that has issues.
https://www.google.com/maps/@-45.8861077,170.3544703,3a,17.9y,0.78h,87.9t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_JKP0MlhmozPUvjABwytwg!2e0!6s% 2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_JKP0MlhmozPU vjABwytwg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_ sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26y aw%3D93.82407%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384 !8i8192

It seems the main issue is that people just don't like to be inconvenienced in ANY way at all. It's the national right of all citizens of Godzone to NOT be delayed in their travel at any time for any reason. Be it by trains or just slow/stupid drivers. Apparently.

[rastuscat]

There's a rail crossing in Kingdon St, Newmarket. Well, it used to be a crossing, now it's blocked off.

An RS Cosworth was in a garage for service nearby, and the mechanic took it on a test run. He tried to beat the train when the lights were flashing. Thje train didn't swerve, end of story.

[HEsch]

There's a rail crossing in Kingdon St, Newmarket. Well, it used to be a crossing, now it's blocked off.

An RS Cosworth was in a garage for service nearby, and the mechanic took it on a test run. He tried to beat the train when the lights were flashing. Thje train didn't swerve, end of story.


My office is right next to this crossing. Pedestrians still play chicken.

[Berries]

The St Andrews street and ANZAC Ave crossing is quite similar to the one in this thread. I've seen traffic banked up from the lights and are parked waiting on the rail lines.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-45.8738647,170.5114994,3a,75y,345.48h,72.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saI4kFZpQniX377jjw6xmEg!2e0!7i1 6384!8i8192
Difference being the traffic signals at the intersection are standard, the lights/bells and barrier at the rail crossing are standard and nobody has seen fit to throw up a very confusing traffic signal for the intersection on the 'wrong' side of the rail crossing. Still got problems, obviously, due to the approach alignment, volume of traffic and length/speed of trains from the port.

[Moi]

Difference being the traffic signals at the intersection are standard, the lights/bells and barrier at the rail crossing are standard and nobody has seen fit to throw up a very confusing traffic signal for the intersection on the 'wrong' side of the rail crossing. Still got problems, obviously, due to the approach alignment, volume of traffic and length/speed of trains from the port.

Perhaps the solution at Kumeu is to have the traffic lights only on the western side of the railway crossing for the traffic exiting Tawa Rd so they have to stop before the railway crossing when the lights are red. Also, when a train approaches both the traffic lights and the crossing warnings activate to stop traffic from exiting Tawa Rd or for traffic to turn left or right into Tawa Rd...

Is it "very confusing" or just "unusual"? Other level crossings on the Western Line, and elsewhere in NZ it appears, that are close to an intersection controlled by traffic lights don't have an 'extra' traffic light but rely on traffic not blocking the level crossing when queued at traffic lights. Such examples are Morningside Drive/New North Rd intersection or Woodward Rd/New North Rd intersection.

Just part of the joys of modern traffic having to deal with road layouts that are 100+ yrs old...

[rastuscat]

Just part of the joys of modern traffic having to deal with road layouts that are 100+ yrs old...

Exactly. I have some sympathy with engineers, who have to design solutions with todays technology being placed into infrastructure designed 100 years ago.

[george formby]

As for third world... a bit harsh. Level crossings exist in every country that has railways, just the nature of the beast. At least we have only one, if I have remembered correctly, where the railway runs down the middle of the main street - Kawakawa, BoI - whereas that situation is not uncommon in the USA. It's just that some drivers/riders are still learning to live with level crossings, and for that matter intersections...

Ah, Gabriel, hours of fun to be had when town is busy.

No lights though, it can be a bit disconcerting dodging traffic exiting parking spaces with eyes closed only to see a steam train directly ahead. Doesn't stop to quick, either.

[Moi]

Ah, Gabriel, hours of fun to be had when town is busy.

No lights though, it can be a bit disconcerting dodging traffic exiting parking spaces with eyes closed only to see a steam train directly ahead. Doesn't stop to quick, either.

"Look out for the train, dear!"

"What train?"

Crunch!

[Moi]

...before my re-sit this Sunday!...

How did the re-sit go?