Braking - My Take

[rastuscat]

Which brake is the most powerful on the bike? Which is the most stable?

I don't have a favourite brake. I use both, in different proportions related to the circumstances in play at the time. Lean angle, momentum (speed), necessity, coefficient of surface friction, that sort of stuff.

I learned a thing or two when I learned to ride, on a CT90 on a farm in Western Southland in the 70's. Wet grass, front brake, down ya go. Get up, brush off the wet grass, off you go again. Front brake, down ya go. What did I learn? Bloody front brake, won't be touching that again.

I know many people who don't use the back brake at all, because the front brake is the most powerful. This is related to weight transfer arising from monentum.

I know just as many people who never use the front brake. Perhaps they had an off because they locked the front brake on a low friction surface (like me), perhaps they used the front brake while leaning in a U-turn, and tipped over (also part of my learning journey).

For example, on gravel at low speed, pulling the front brake on is likely to lock the front wheel due to a low coefficient of surface friction. Especially given the low speed, there's not much weight transfer anyway, and it's likely the back brake can remove the momentum perfectly well. Lock the back wheel on gravel, no biggie. Lock the front, down ya go.

The other end of the scale is when a plonker pulls out of a side road ahead of you. Assuming there is no escape path, and that an emergency stop is necessary, the front brake is crucial. Applying it progressively will commence the weight of the bike coming off the back wheel, reducing the ability of the rear brake to reduce momentum. The good news is that the weight coming off the back wheel is going onto the front wheel, compressing the suspension, travelling down through the forks, hub and spokes and flexing the sidewallls of the front tyer. If you have the tyre pressues correct, the contact patch speads put as it shpould giving you far better contact with the world, making your stop so much quicker. The back, while it's not removing much momentum, adds to the stability of the stop.

One thing that is clear is that those folk who only ever use one brake are compromising their riding, and probably their safety. And until the day it goes wrong, they won't even know it.

[malcy25]

When I was instructing with ART at Puke and then Hampton Downs in the the group one up from Novice, talking brakes was always fun....as much as trying to get the other instructors to not tell the punters things like "I don't use the rear brake"....we were all mid level racers, and on the track yeah, the rear brake could be a problem...but were weren't a race school and I was trying to get less focus on skilling the punters up to go as fast as possible at the track, as focussing on a lot of the skills that can transfer to assisting their road riding ....I didn't think we were probably equipped to teach road riding so much as focus on the component bike handling techniques they should know and would need. such as line selection, eye sight/head position, counter steer, look where you need to go, effect of body position, peg weight. Generic, make it turn, stop, be more stable.

When I got to talking about the effect of each brake, it was as much a focus on getting the riders to think about when one may be preferable over the other. My favourite analogy was the front was where the power was, but the rear was like a "sea anchor", gave great stability and added control in awkward situations, wet, slippery, lean etc....

[george formby]

Sea anchor? I like it.

I rode for years and never really thought about braking, only in combination with perceived grip. Which in Scotland was more just hope.

Then one day I got some teaching and started practising. Bugger me! It's astonishing how hard you can brake with a bit of feel for it. Even in the wet.

From that I started playing at motogymkhana to improve my handling skills and using the brakes to steer. Bugger me. Again.

Anybody reading the above posts and thinking they got it, they ain't unless practising.

I've yet to use ABS in anger but looking forward to how effective it is compared to my organic feel.

[onearmedbandit]

I use both regularly, varying on conditions etc. One 'feeling' I've noticed is a reduced forward pitch due to the rear pulling the bike down slightly, in certain conditions this definitely gives a more stable handling impression.

[Gremlin]

But what if you have linked brakes, so when you use one, the bike uses both? :confused:

Or, if you have linked brakes and use the front only, it uses both, but use the rear only, and it only uses the rear? :shifty:
What about normal ABS settings with both ends on, vs offroad ABS where rear can be locked (ABS deactivated), but the front is still enabled? :bleh:

[F5 Dave]

I find I overuse the rear brake if I've been riding the dirtbike recently. Gave me a scare once on the track 'backing it into' an uphill corner when I wasn't supposed to.

On the other hand I had a rear brake on old racebike that appeared to work when you checked it but one day I realised it was bottoming on a link so it wasn't actually effective much after walking pace. Could have been like that for ages. On a small light bike you just dont get any retardation from it on track.

On the road and in the wet I use the rear as well as front. I'd love a thumb brake for the dirtbike rear.

You only have to practice in a carpark to measure the effectiveness of each brake, and most roadriders make huge decreases in braking distance as they generally are uncalibrated near traction edge. I guess abs evens this out if they can overcome the fear.

Ironically given my joke in the other thread, I'm sitting here (can't lie down) nursing broken ribs as I was dragging the front a little bit too much and should have used the rear more perhaps. Perhaps. Grass downhills are fickle mistresses when its started raining. :msn-wink:

[rastuscat]

Bugger me! Bugger me. Again.



Two kind offers, but no. :)

[george formby]

Two kind offers, but no. :)

Bugger me sideways? Mainly rear brake.:innocent:

[rastuscat]

But what if you have linked brakes, so when you use one, the bike uses both? :confused:

Or, if you have linked brakes and use the front only, it uses both, but use the rear only, and it only uses the rear? :shifty:
What about normal ABS settings with both ends on, vs offroad ABS where rear can be locked (ABS deactivated), but the front is still enabled? :bleh:

You and I both know that I was talking about standard, pre ABS bikes, which are still the majority.

I still apply the same principles to the linked ABS system on the RT. No cornering ABS, but it has traction control. I try to ride the bike so that skill prevents me from having to rely on the technology.

But I'm still happy to have the technology in case I get it wrong.

[Navy Boy]

You and I both know that I was talking about standard, pre ABS bikes, which are still the majority.

I still apply the same principles to the linked ABS system on the RT. No cornering ABS, but it has traction control. I try to ride the bike so that skill prevents me from having to rely on the technology.

But I'm still happy to have the technology in case I get it wrong.

A lot of this depends on your biking background too. Dirt bikers tend to use the rear brake a lot (Such as myself) as it has a number of uses on an off road bike. For instance it took me a while to realise that applying the back brake when in the air helped bring the front wheel down - Sounds obvious but it took a number of goes to get the feel for it.

On the road I've always seen the back brake as a means of 'Sucking' the bike to the road. 'Sea anchor' also covers it pretty well too. Any time there's a twisty road and I want to scrub off a little excess speed going into bends I'll use the back brake. On a bumpy road I'll also use it on the way out of a tight/hairpin bend in order to allow the power to apply more smoothly. This has become even more important in recent years with fuel injected, emissions-friendly bikes' abrupt throttle response. In fact I'll still do this even on bikes with TC as I don't want to rely on the TC as a matter of course.

The occasional practicing of emergency braking using both is a good idea and is something I'll remember to do more often having read this thread. Of course when riding something such as the m109 brakes assume less importance given the amount of engine braking on offer! :eek:

[rastuscat]

A lot of this depends on your biking background too. Dirt bikers tend to use the rear brake a lot (Such as myself) as it has a number of uses on an off road bike. For instance it took me a while to realise that applying the back brake when in the air helped bring the front wheel down - Sounds obvious but it took a number of goes to get the feel for it.

On the road I've always seen the back brake as a means of 'Sucking' the bike to the road. 'Sea anchor' also covers it pretty well too. Any time there's a twisty road and I want to scrub off a little excess speed going into bends I'll use the back brake. On a bumpy road I'll also use it on the way out of a tight/hairpin bend in order to allow the power to apply more smoothly. This has become even more important in recent years with fuel injected, emissions-friendly bikes' abrupt throttle response. In fact I'll still do this even on bikes with TC as I don't want to rely on the TC as a matter of course.

The occasional practicing of emergency braking using both is a good idea and is something I'll remember to do more often having read this thread. Of course when riding something such as the m109 brakes assume less importance given the amount of engine braking on offer! :eek:

Yes to all of the above.

I believe that trail braking is largely a track thing, but I use it myself in steep corners, trailng the rear brake as the sea anchor.

I don't like to talk about trail braking much, as I'm no expert in it, and don't want to make a dick of myself. (Opportunity for quote supplied).

Trail braking is a fine art, and most riders I've come across lack the finesse necessary to apply it usefully.

The track guys are often those who have great skills on the track, which they then apply on the road. Including having not much use for the rear brake. I've seen guys do track days not touching their back brake, then ride home still not touching their back brake, because that is the habit they have formed.

If I had a favourite I'd say the rear, as it helps my beloved slow speed cone work. Love that stuff, plenty of challenge. Triangle of control between the clutch, throttle and rear brake.

[pete376403]

The track guys are often those who have great skills on the track, which they then apply on the road. Including having not much use for the rear brake. I've seen guys do track days not touching their back brake, then ride home still not touching their back brake, because that is the habit they have formed.

Early in Bruce Ansteys career, my brother-in-law made an aluminium rear disk for his (Bruces) TZ250, which was alright because the brake was only ever used in scruitineering, then not touched again

[rastuscat]

Early in Bruce Ansteys career, my brother-in-law made an aluminium rear disk for his (Bruces) TZ250, which was alright because the brake was only ever used in scruitineering, then not touched again

Wow, who knew. It's the source of the issue.

[pritch]

The linked brakes on the VFR worked well. The parking garage where I worked required some tight low speed manoeuvring, normally at that speed braking would be rear brake only. The way the linked brakes worked didn't create a problem.

As OAB observed when braking at road speed with both brakes the bike doesn't pitch forward so much. The linked braking made the bike feel reassuringly 'planted' (?).

When Pedrosa and Hayden were both riding for Repsol Honda, Hayden's bike had a larger rear disk. Hayden, probably due to his dirt track background, used his rear brake more than Pedrosa. Of course he had a thinking Kiwi crew chief too.

[rastuscat]

The linked brakes on the VFR worked well. The parking garage where I worked required some tight low speed manoeuvring, normally at that speed braking would be rear brake only. The way the linked brakes worked didn't create a problem.

As OAB observed when braking at road speed with both brakes the bike doesn't pitch forward so much. The linked braking made the bike feel reassuringly 'planted' (?).

When Pedrosa and Hayden were both riding for Repsol Honda, Hayden's bike had a larger rear disk. Hayden, probably due to his dirt track background, used his rear brake more than Pedrosa. Of course he had a thinking Kiwi crew chief too.

The RT has linked brakes, and telelever suspension. Nil form dive, even under having braking. The bike "squats".

Feeling spoiled.

[Navy Boy]

The RT has linked brakes, and telelever suspension. Nil form dive, even under having braking. The bike "squats".

Feeling spoiled.

Yep - All the Hondas I've ridden with the linked braking system (VFR 800s for instance) seemed to work well and make things better rather than worse as much of the UK biking press seemed to think at the time. Perhaps I'm just a bit odd (Quite likely I know :crazy:).

Another aspect of course is the type of bike. Cruisers tend to favour back braking more simply because of their weight distribution but my R1's back brake, whilst working perfectly well, isn't as useful in normal riding. One of the most useful things I found out about braking (When doing my Ride Forever Courses for instance) is keeping your head up and vision focused on an object in the distance. Do that and using both brakes seems to just come naturally anyway. ;)

[Viking01]

Yep - All the Hondas I've ridden with the linked braking system (VFR 800s for instance) seemed to work well and make things better rather than worse as much of the UK biking press seemed to think at the time. Perhaps I'm just a bit odd (Quite likely I know :crazy:).

Another aspect of course is the type of bike. Cruisers tend to favour back braking more simply because of their weight distribution but my R1's back brake, whilst working perfectly well, isn't as useful in normal riding. One of the most useful things I found out about braking (When doing my Ride Forever Courses for instance) is keeping your head up and vision focused on an object in the distance. Do that and using both brakes seems to just come naturally anyway. ;)

It's always puzzled me why some people have "bagged" the linked brake implementation on the VFR800. Having ridden over 100K kms on my old 2008 VFR800, I've always found the linked braking on the VFR800 to be effective, but relatively unobtrusive.

Mind you, getting rid of Mr Honda's budget front suspension (having forks revalved and stronger / linear springs installed at the 50K mark) did make a considerable difference (reduction) to the amount of dive during braking.

The VFR800 could easily brake and stop comfortably from 100km/hr during "emergency braking" practice during Roadsafe courses. Even with its lack of ABS. Though Navy Boy's comment about "keeping your head up and vision out into the distance during hard braking" is important.

I've yet to ride a large BMW and compare braking performance, so I can't comment. But I suspect - just from past comments of some BMW riders on the KB forum - that the Telelever engineering implementation (coupled with linked brakes) improves the braking experience even further under normal road riding.

https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/discover/engineering/technology-detail/suspension/telelever.html

[rastuscat]

It's always puzzled me why some people have "bagged" the linked brake implementation on the VFR800. Having ridden over 100K kms on my old 2008 VFR800, I've always found the linked braking on the VFR800 to be effective, but relatively unobtrusive.

Mind you, getting rid of Mr Honda's budget front suspension (having forks revalved and stronger / linear springs installed at the 50K mark) did make a considerable difference (reduction) to the amount of dive during braking.

The VFR800 could easily brake and stop comfortably from 100km/hr during "emergency braking" practice during Roadsafe courses. Even with its lack of ABS. Though Navy Boy's comment about "keeping your head up and vision out into the distance during hard braking" is important.

I've yet to ride a large BMW and compare braking performance, so I can't comment. But I suspect - just from past comments of some BMW riders on the KB forum - that the Telelever engineering implementation (coupled with linked brakes) improves the braking experience even further under normal road riding.

https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/discover/engineering/technology-detail/suspension/telelever.html


Yup, telelever is a gem. I drifted from a series of RTs onto a 1600GTL for 18 months or so, the suspension on the GTL was similar in performance, but very different in construction.

I've also had 3 x F800STs, all of whjich dove under braking, having just simple tradional forks. It's how they keep the price down, I guess.

I knid of feel like I've been spoiled over the years, as I've had fairly high tech bikes. I don't really recall thew handling of the last standard bike I had, a GPz550H2.

[malcy25]

I generally don't road ride these days, 100% diet of track. I 'll admit I don't have the mental capacity spare to use the rear brake when racing in the dry. Barely in the wet when racing....yet on my road push bike I use it a bit!

Modern wets, holy crap you can brake hard...

Robbie Phillis rode my TZ750 at Motofest in 2018 and I had to fit new rear pads and the rear disc was blue....:laugh:

[F5 Dave]

I want a thumb brake on my dirtbike as
1. When I'm flailing about down a tricky hill and can't bring myself to get my foot back on the rear peg and pedal
2. Poor man's traction control.

I actually take the weight off the peg when seated to give finer control of the rear which I read in some dirtbike book. Never tried it on the street.


Accessing memory banks. . I remember Chris (dynotech where we used to hang out) showing us Bruce's rear brake. Vaguely think the lever itself was made of Perspex with a tip screwed on the end, which i suppose was the material that comes to hand as a glazier.

Actually seen ally front brake disks made for buckets which can last/work well if organic pad used and slots cut for expansion.

[pete376403]

Actually seen ally front brake disks made for buckets which can last/work well if organic pad used and slots cut for expansion.

Kawasaki used plasma sprayed ally disks on the H2Rs -the two stroke ones - at some point, IIRC from my Cycle magazine readings

[F5 Dave]

There were a few. Heron Suzuki played with them I think.

[george formby]

I want a thumb brake on my dirtbike as
1. When I'm flailing about down a tricky hill and can't bring myself to get my foot back on the rear peg and pedal
2. Poor man's traction control.

I actually take the weight off the peg when seated to give finer control of the rear which I read in some dirtbike book. Never tried it on the street.


Accessing memory banks. . I remember Chris (dynotech where we used to hang out) showing us Bruce's rear brake. Vaguely think the lever itself was made of Perspex with a tip screwed on the end, which i suppose was the material that comes to hand as a glazier.

Actually seen ally front brake disks made for buckets which can last/work well if organic pad used and slots cut for expansion.

I set up my rear brake lever so that I have to move my foot to find it, down on a road bike and up on a dirt bike. Don't have to move much, just enough to make it a deliberate and controlled stomp.

[Bonez]

I've set my rear brakes with a bit more travel so the rear brake light comes on a bit earlier to ward tail gaters off without applying the rear brakes and it makes sure I really want to use them as needed.

Owning an older m/c with marginal front brakes you need to use all the brakeing you can-engine breaking, front disk brake and huge rear drum brake. Most of the time I don't use the brakes much at all and use the gears. A much more sedate pace and no need for panic braking most of the time.:woohoo: That's open road stuff. Around town I choose front, rear or a combination of both depending on the conditions and circumstances.

[F5 Dave]

I set up my rear brake lever so that I have to move my foot to find it, down on a road bike and up on a dirt bike. Don't have to move much, just enough to make it a deliberate and controlled stomp.
We used to teach have it a bit high on road to give a slight delay. Lower could work too I guess. On the front first to transfer the weight then when you start applying the rear it is on a lighter rear end already, rather than apply to a rear that gets weight transferred off it and locks, distracting the rider.

At the hoosiwhatsi motorcycle roadshow thingy held at southwoods etc they did some demonstrations. They were suggesting rear first to settle the bike then front. That really didn't make any sense to me. Firstly for above reason. Then why would you want to delay application of your most effective brake for longer than the reaction time where you are coasting? It seems like squandering metres.

I then considered they were doing displays on oversized adventure bikes. Perhaps the long travel suspension favours that?
ABS would mask the weight transfer locking of the rear of course.

[Gremlin]

I knid of feel like I've been spoiled over the years, as I've had fairly high tech bikes. I don't really recall thew handling of the last standard bike I had, a GPz550H2.
The biggest thing is understanding how your bike works, and when you have 3 (ahem :whistle:) that have different technologies - including the CB919 with no traction control or ABS, you need to adjust and ride with it in mind.

Try adding in different gear too. Road boots, you can feel the pedal very well, modulate well. Adventure boots, less. The MX boots I use on the 1090R, well, it's like putting a sledgehammer on the back brake, to the point I don't often turn off rear ABS, because I can't feel when I'm starting to apply pressure, and know I've applied too much when the bike is trying to swap ends because the rear is locked. Trying to release pressure, the only option is not using... I did have an interesting finish to a steep sandy hill in December as ABS stopped the bike from locking and the finish was a tad quicker than the start... :sweatdrop

[rastuscat]

The biggest thing is understanding how your bike works, and when you have 3 (ahem :whistle:) that have different technologies - including the CB919 with no traction control or ABS, you need to adjust and ride with it in mind.

Try adding in different gear too. Road boots, you can feel the pedal very well, modulate well. Adventure boots, less. The MX boots I use on the 1090R, well, it's like putting a sledgehammer on the back brake, to the point I don't often turn off rear ABS, because I can't feel when I'm starting to apply pressure, and know I've applied too much when the bike is trying to swap ends because the rear is locked. Trying to release pressure, the only option is not using... I did have an interesting finish to a steep sandy hill in December as ABS stopped the bike from locking and the finish was a tad quicker than the start... :sweatdrop

Boots make a huge difference. I don't ever ride with steel toe boots. Ever, Nil feel of the gear lever.

[SaferRides]

We used to teach have it a bit high on road to give a slight delay. Lower could work too I guess. On the front first to transfer the weight then when you start applying the rear it is on a lighter rear end already, rather than apply to a rear that gets weight transferred off it and locks, distracting the rider.

At the hoosiwhatsi motorcycle roadshow thingy held at southwoods etc they did some demonstrations. They were suggesting rear first to settle the bike then front. That really didn't make any sense to me. Firstly for above reason. Then why would you want to delay application of your most effective brake for longer than the reaction time where you are coasting? It seems like squandering metres.

I then considered they were doing displays on oversized adventure bikes. Perhaps the long travel suspension favours that?
ABS would mask the weight transfer locking of the rear of course.

I've found applying the rear just before the front does settle the bike, perhaps because it slows the weight transfer to the front wheel? But I would never do it in an emergency as you just want to get hard on the front as quickly as possible without locking.

Similarly, I never use the rear when braking hard because there is little or no weight on the back wheel. That's the case on a sports bike anyway, but I expect cruisers would need a different approach.

[Gremlin]

Boots make a huge difference. I don't ever ride with steel toe boots. Ever, Nil feel of the gear lever.
When you know you're stepping off the bike at some point (even multiple times in the day), be it sand, river, whatever, protection comes first... :yes:

Zero lateral flex around ankle etc. Hinged front and back, to give limited forward back movement.

Actually, on a semi funny note, as we had assembled at a gas station and about to head out, one of the rider instructors was taking a learner out. Normal pants and shoes, had to go get gloves to cover his hands etc. I stepped forward (as the instructor knows me) and offered up to give him an idea of the gear. Front and back armour, the boots etc.... Hopefully he learnt something...

[pete376403]

This story - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/124123111/motorcyclist-defies-odds-to-wake-from-fourweek-coma-after-horrific-crash

Great that he survived but look at the pictures - first the skid mark and then the one of the bike. High handlebars and forward foot controls. My guess is he didn't touch the front brake, locked up the rear, high sided into the bank and possibly the bike landed on top.

It's not (from the picture) a very sharp corner so should have had visibility of the sheep early enough.

However, he lived and thats a win.

[rastuscat]

This story - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/124123111/motorcyclist-defies-odds-to-wake-from-fourweek-coma-after-horrific-crash

Great that he survived but look at the pictures - first the skid mark and then the one of the bike. High handlebars and forward foot controls. My guess is he didn't touch the front brake, locked up the rear, high sided into the bank and possibly the bike landed on top.

It's not (from the picture) a very sharp corner so should have had visibility of the sheep early enough.

However, he lived and thats a win.

Not going to judge, seems wandering stock was the issue.

But you can't make a skid mark like that with a front wheel. That's a locked rear brake. A little practice and he might have done better.

[ellipsis]

...it's all irrelevant to me...I ride a sportster on the road, less and less these days and I'm starting to ride slower, more and more...suits the sportys brakes which work well under 20kph...

...the only time I try and go fast these days is on a dirt oval and the only reason we have a rear brake is so that you don't knock the lady over, who is wandering through the pits with a hotdog in her mouth...or that you don't hit your trailer when you get to your pit...

[malcy25]

WOn the front first to transfer the weight then when you start applying the rear it is on a lighter rear end already, rather than apply to a rear that gets weight transferred off it and locks, distracting the rider.

At the hoosiwhatsi motorcycle roadshow thingy held at southwoods etc they did some demonstrations. They were suggesting rear first to settle the bike then front. That really didn't make any sense to me. Firstly for above reason. Then why would you want to delay application of your most effective brake for longer than the reaction time where you are coasting? It seems like squandering metres.


The theory doesn't quite work in my mind sorry. Being on the gas has the weight rear biased. Grabbing the front first will means little weight load on when you first grab it.....snagging the rear brake slightly before the front will get the weight transfer moving, but with less risk of over powering the traction of unweighted front tyre being braked.....

Well that was theory that Bob Haldane told me years ago. Not that most of the time i have either:
1) enough power in the bike I'm riding to really cause an unweighted front
2) enough capacity in the head to use the rear brake in most situations
3) am riding old bikes that have a more rear ward weight bias.

[F5 Dave]

Um, sorry are you saying that you would start braking from a heavy on throttle and not close it until after you put the rear on? Didn't think so. ;)

As soon as we shut the throttle hard the weight transfer has started and the front brake is starting to bite. It is diving at the front, assuming you aren't on a GTS yam or Tesi, but I'm sure you've been in a thousand braking battles on the track going from extremes.

[FJRider]

The theory doesn't quite work in my mind sorry. Being on the gas has the weight rear biased. Grabbing the front first will means little weight load on when you first grab it.....snagging the rear brake slightly before the front will get the weight transfer moving, but with less risk of over powering the traction of unweighted front tyre being braked.....



If you have a need to brake ... the first thing that happens is as you come off the throttle ... the weight will start to transfer onto the front wheel by that action alone. A fraction of a second later when the (both) brakes are applied ... and with de-acceleration to aid braking ... grip will be firm at both ends.

In situations where there is no urgency in braking (in general road riding situations) ... the delay between applying back brake and applying front brake can be used. This (if done correctly) will not cause the rear tire to skid ... as the intention is to slow down and be firmly under control ... as opposed to an immediate and rapid (emergency) stop. Practice at doing this well is needed. But well worth the time.

The key words are ... Staying under control. With some practice ... a stop can be quite rapid.


The key factor is what speed you were traveling at before the brakes were applied. Weather/road conditions being secondary.

[FJRider]

It's not (from the picture) a very sharp corner so should have had visibility of the sheep early enough.

However, he lived and thats a win.

Here is the location.

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-43.3994336,171.5897984,3a,75y,329.19h,84.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAiwncuMFRHC7YL_0fz0AZA!2e0!7i1 6384!8i8192

[FJRider]

Not going to judge, seems wandering stock was the issue.



Trying to go around them at speed on a loud motorcycle is difficult.

[Bonez]

Sheep can be quite well camouflaged raising on the side of the road especialy in longer grass. They will either stand in the middle of the road then run away from you in the direction you are travelling then stop and go to the side of the road they ran out from originally cutting in front of the bike. Or stay in the grass and then leap out in front of you at the last minute. I do a lot of back road riding and sometimes you just don't see them until the last minute.

I had a similar thing at night involving a bullock. The head light beem seemed to just be obsorbed in to its body then he turned his head and I spotted the reflection from his eyes.

[sugilite]

I ride Road bikes, dirt bikes and raced both and have a horses for courses approach.
Road riding has it's own challenges, so I have a set up and ride style pretty much exactly like bonez. My rear brake is set up that it only kinda starts to lock at the very bottom of the lever travel arc, and my riding style is based around button off and engine braking (mild) and roll the throttle on gently just before the apex - in other words, ride in a way the brakes are not required. Emergency braking I use both in measures dictated by road surface, road incline and grip available.
Bonez also mentions critters, especially the ever popular wayward NZ sheep. I'm my much younger days I came over a rise and through a set of esses at speed, and a bloody sheep launched a surprise attack. I braked as best I could, and managed to chop down a gear and just before impact, I got off the brakes and hit the throttle as hard as I could, while aiming for it's flanks and punched it straight off the road. If hitting an animal is unavoidable, what ever you do, don't hit it while under brakes, if at all possible scrub off as much speed as possible, then accelerate into it - trust me, it is your best chance of staying on the bike.

[F5 Dave]

That's brave. I'd like to see the controlled experiment to show that was best option everytime.

[FJRider]

That's brave. I'd like to see the controlled experiment to show that was best option everytime.

It certainly makes more sense ... than letting fate determine how you collide with a sheep.

Stay in control of the situation until it's over.

However it ends ...

[sugilite]

That's brave. I'd like to see the controlled experiment to show that was best option everytime.
I have no idea how you would organize a controlled experiment. You don't want your tyre to lock the moment the critters skin and flesh start to separate from the pressure of said tyre or you will be going down for sure.
I have hit several critters, if you hit rabbit/hare/possum size whole accelerating you barely feel them. Once hit a hare while on the pegs on an RG250 with myself and my NZ volleyball rep 2 meter tall mate on the back on piekak hill, so 2 x 2 meter plus dudes on that small bike lol
For animals up to sheep size accelerate just before impact, anything bigger that is going to be a certain unavoidable hit - it is try your best to stand on the pegs time and get ready to fly and pray, stay sitting down and it will be a broken pelvis at the least.

[sugilite]

It certainly makes more sense ... than letting fate determine how you collide with a sheep.

Stay in control of the situation until it's over.

However it ends ...

When I hit the sheep in the flanks, the bike did punch it off the road, and the impact sent the bike into an odd slow motion tank slapper which I managed to wrestle under control - whew. :sweatdrop

[F5 Dave]

It certainly makes more sense ... than letting fate determine how you collide with a sheep.

Stay in control of the situation until it's over.

However it ends ...

If I've messed up and hitting something is unavoidable, then I have lost control already. No one hitting anything except a shop window ram raider, is in control of the situation.

I'd certainly want to hit with the least possible speed.

But to make the best of the situation he could well be right about not hitting it with the forks fully compressed and front at adhesion limit. But accelerating adds speed. Maybe letting go of brake.

Whether I could convince myself to do that I don't know. Probably too scared.

Sheep are concerning. I keep a continously roving eye in farmland and brake early if I see them. But I've been caught napping and been lucky too.

[FJRider]

Sheep are concerning. I keep a continously roving eye in farmland and brake early if I see them. But I've been caught napping and been lucky too.

A little while back I made a post about stock on the road. It may help some. But every situation is different.

And I've been lucky a few times too.

[Bonez]

A little while back I made a post about stock on the road. It may help some. But every situation is different.

And I've been lucky a few times too.Bumping into a blind Irish wolf hound following the barks of the other dogs herding sheep across the road is an ineresting experience. He was HUGE with the top of his head at the same hieght as the 1" rise handle bars on a CX500.

[george formby]

I ride Road bikes, dirt bikes and raced both and have a horses for courses approach.
Road riding has it's own challenges, so I have a set up and ride style pretty much exactly like bonez. My rear brake is set up that it only kinda starts to lock at the very bottom of the lever travel arc, and my riding style is based around button off and engine braking (mild) and roll the throttle on gently just before the apex - in other words, ride in a way the brakes are not required. Emergency braking I use both in measures dictated by road surface, road incline and grip available.
Bonez also mentions critters, especially the ever popular wayward NZ sheep. I'm my much younger days I came over a rise and through a set of esses at speed, and a bloody sheep launched a surprise attack. I braked as best I could, and managed to chop down a gear and just before impact, I got off the brakes and hit the throttle as hard as I could, while aiming for it's flanks and punched it straight off the road. If hitting an animal is unavoidable, what ever you do, don't hit it while under brakes, if at all possible scrub off as much speed as possible, then accelerate into it - trust me, it is your best chance of staying on the bike.

I can vouch for this technique with badgers. Weight back and a touch of throttle turns them into a furry kicker. Like hitting a bag of concrete.

Well, it worked on an XT 350.

[F5 Dave]

Will keep it in mind it I ever see one.

[rocketman1]

A lot of this depends on your biking background too. Dirt bikers tend to use the rear brake a lot (Such as myself) as it has a number of uses on an off road bike. For instance it took me a while to realise that applying the back brake when in the air helped bring the front wheel down - Sounds obvious but it took a number of goes to get the feel for it.

On the road I've always seen the back brake as a means of 'Sucking' the bike to the road. 'Sea anchor' also covers it pretty well too. Any time there's a twisty road and I want to scrub off a little excess speed going into bends I'll use the back brake. On a bumpy road I'll also use it on the way out of a tight/hairpin bend in order to allow the power to apply more smoothly. This has become even more important in recent years with fuel injected, emissions-friendly bikes' abrupt throttle response. In fact I'll still do this even on bikes with TC as I don't want to rely on the TC as a matter of course.

The occasional practicing of emergency braking using both is a good idea and is something I'll remember to do more often having read this thread. Of course when riding something such as the m109 brakes assume less importance given the amount of engine braking on offer! :eek:

I got back on a dirt bike (WR250) after years of road riding, it had been raining the day before but surface was dryish, going down a slight grassy slope about 50km/hr, tapped the front brake and a little back brake, I hit the deck before I knew what happened, and hit hard , the guy following me said man you went down fast, are you ok, luckily I was only shocked a bit sore but no real damage. I can only put it down to the fact that I was used to front braking on road bikes and was a bit over confident of the front brake. I learnt a lesson from that and if road or surface is a little greasy, wet , shiny, or dirty be very careful on over using front brake.

[F5 Dave]

That's kinda exactly how I broke my ribs 4 weeks ago. Grass is slippery. Didn't tap brake though.

[Kickaha]

That's kinda exactly how I broke my ribs 4 weeks ago. Grass is slippery. Didn't tap brake though.

Hurt like a motherfucker for a long time dont they ?

[F5 Dave]

I've just had a couple of nights that I could sleep in a bed rather than a chair. I've done floating ribs before and they were a piece of cake in comparison.

[Kickaha]

I've just had a couple of nights that I could sleep in a bed rather than a chair. I've done floating ribs before and they were a piece of cake in comparison.

Get some titanium bits to hold them together, that's what I did
348539
Pretty much caused by a lack of braking due to slippery downhill bumpy surface

[husaberg]

Get some titanium bits to hold them together, that's what I did
348539
Pretty much caused by a lack of braking due to slippery downhill bumpy surface

Looks like a iud......

[pritch]

If hitting an animal is unavoidable, what ever you do, don't hit it while under brakes,

That's good advice. It also applies to inanimate planks of wood and other detritus that suddenly appears in your path.

[Bonez]

That's good advice. It also applies to inanimate planks of wood and other detritus that suddenly appears in your path.
I don't think you'll get a responce from numbnuts for a wee while yet pritch. If you can not see an inanimate piece of debris lying on the road in broard daylight you are either blind or traveling at 170kph over hill and dale out side city limits everywhere.

[sugilite]

I've had several experiences of objects falling off peoples trailers, trucks and so on in front of me. I've also been following vehicles in front that have run over debris redistributing them, and wammo, one has to take action to mitigate. Think you will find most motorcyclists have at some stage experienced thus. Unless one lives a charmed life. When it comes to motorcycle safety threads, it may not be the best place to troll in an effort to score points over a personal vendetta.

Just sayin.

[ellipsis]

I don't think you'll get a responce from numbnuts for a wee while yet pritch. If you can not see an inanimate piece of debris lying on the road in broard daylight you are either blind or traveling at 170kph over hill and dale out side city limits everywhere.

...if only I had the Magic Lamp, the Genie and the Three Wishes...I'd actually consider wasting one on making you go away...

[Bonez]

...if only I had the Magic Lamp, the Genie and the Three Wishes...I'd actually consider wasting one on making you go away...Oh you poor poor thing. You south Island blood nuts should get a room.

Having been a red head for 61 years and counting it is unbelievable to see what softkocks you lot down there are. Bitter angry little men wearing skirts all of you.

You're a complete disgrace to the Ginga gen pool. Piff!

[F5 Dave]

...if only I had the Magic Lamp, the Genie and the Three Wishes...I'd actually consider wasting one on making you go away...
Right. Everyone check the back of their cupboards and at any garage sales, old relatives etc. Must be able to find one somewhere.

[rastuscat]

I've had several experiences of objects falling off peoples trailers, trucks and so on in front of me. I've also been following vehicles in front that have run over debris redistributing them, and wammo, one has to take action to mitigate. Think you will find most motorcyclists have at some stage experienced thus. Unless one lives a charmed life. When it comes to motorcycle safety threads, it may not be the best place to troll in an effort to score points over a personal vendetta.

Just sayin.

Had a chat to a guy in Chch recently. Two years ago, he came off at 25 kmh after hitting a tie-down strop buckle in one of the tunnels south of Kaikoura.

You know, the ones where your eyes are accumstomed to riding in bright sunlight, but then they are unable to see very well in the brief period of dark through the tunnel.

So far the damage to his leg has cost ACC $1.2M. And he will never be right. Had to sell his business, and he's only recently back at work.

Sometimes bad stuff happens that we just can't do anything about. The best guess I have seen is around 5% of crashes are thus.

Meaning 95% are those we can take action to avoid.

[caspernz]

Meaning 95% are those we can take action to avoid.

Amen to that Pete. Shame it's so hard for the masses to accept it...:innocent::facepalm:

[Navy Boy]

Amen to that Pete. Shame it's so hard for the masses to accept it...:innocent::facepalm:

Here's one for you...

This last Sunday I was travelling along on the Buller Gorge road when a wasp got behind the visor and stung me just under my left eye. Damned near had me having a big moment too. No amount of braking practice prepares you for that sort of bad boy moment! :oi-grr:

[Bonez]

Boots make a huge difference. I don't ever ride with steel toe boots. Ever, Nil feel of the gear lever.I find there is no difference in riding with steel caps, armored road riding or MX boots at all.:no:

[Bonez]

Here's one for you...

This last Sunday I was travelling along on the Buller Gorge road when a wasp got behind the visor and stung me just under my left eye. Damned near had me having a big moment too. No amount of braking practice prepares you for that sort of bad boy moment! :oi-grr:Had that happen between Hastings and Havelock North. Got stung behind my right ear. Managed to make it back to my parants place thank goodness.. Took my gear off while feeling quite ill then sat on the couch in the louge. Dad finished work about an hour and came though the back door seeing that I was puffed up like the Michiilan Man and very ill.

[FJRider]

Boots make a huge difference. I don't ever ride with steel toe boots. Ever, Nil feel of the gear lever.

I often do. But I position the lever so it sits just behind the steel cap. I can feel the lever through the leather.

But ... On the FJ ... I seldom need to change gear. It happily goes everywhere in top.

Horsepower and torque ... makes life easy .. :devil2:

[george formby]

Here's one for you...

This last Sunday I was travelling along on the Buller Gorge road when a wasp got behind the visor and stung me just under my left eye. Damned near had me having a big moment too. No amount of braking practice prepares you for that sort of bad boy moment! :oi-grr:

Yup. Been stung a few times. Had them in me hemlet but the worst was riding into a swarm and getting multiple bees up the sleeves of my jacket. :shit:

Hit a pheasant "speed testing" an old 750 years ago. I hit it with the clutch lever and fractured my fingers before it hit my chest and embedded a pillow full of feathers into the zip. Same jacket as I got stung in. After managing to remove the jacket with one hand it never left the closet again.

I dread to think what would have happened if it hit the brake lever. Ouchies.

[F5 Dave]

I often do. But I position the lever so it sits just behind the steel cap. I can feel the lever through the leather.

But ... On the FJ ... I seldom need to change gear. It happily goes everywhere in top.

Horsepower and torque ... makes life easy .. :devil2:
What is the sole rigidity like? Crashes can fold up the foot a bit.

[george formby]

https://youtu.be/JmcA9LIIXWw

Not funny.

[caspernz]

Here's one for you...

This last Sunday I was travelling along on the Buller Gorge road when a wasp got behind the visor and stung me just under my left eye. Damned near had me having a big moment too. No amount of braking practice prepares you for that sort of bad boy moment! :oi-grr:

Of course this sort of thing will happen aye Lee. I've been stung once or twice, so now visor goes down nice and early. Neck buffs are handy to keep the problems in that area. Yeah it's warm but it serves its purpose.

Some weeks ago I mentioned to the participants on my course to close their visors going down into a valley known to be full of bugs/bees etc. Those who closed their visors merely got splattered, those who didn't had a lot more "fun" as it turns out :brick:

[F5 Dave]

I left my house with the visor just cracked an inch. A fly bounced off the chin piece and right up my nostril. Bleeerrgh. I had to push the other nostril closed and blow to get it out. What a disgusting start to the day.:mad:

Then I considered how the fly must have felt.

[sugilite]

Had a chat to a guy in Chch recently. Two years ago, he came off at 25 kmh after hitting a tie-down strop buckle in one of the tunnels south of Kaikoura.

You know, the ones where your eyes are accumstomed to riding in bright sunlight, but then they are unable to see very well in the brief period of dark through the tunnel.

So far the damage to his leg has cost ACC $1.2M. And he will never be right. Had to sell his business, and he's only recently back at work.

Sometimes bad stuff happens that we just can't do anything about. The best guess I have seen is around 5% of crashes are thus.

Meaning 95% are those we can take action to avoid.

Yeah, spot on mate. My two worst were slow speeders. 4 breaks in the femur, one an eye catching spiral for the xray - went down due to inexperience with knobbly tyres on the road. My Fault. 2nd one de-gloved lower left leg when a truck failed to indicate, knocked me off at less than 10 kph, then ran down the side of my leg. It de-gloved as I ripped it out as it went under the rear wheels of said truck. Cops blamed him, though there were things I could have done better to avoid. I've had 9 crashes on the roads, most when I was pre 20 years old. Only one was unavoidable. I have had countless crashes racing.

After talking with many riders about their crashes, I became aware that many get a fright, then tell themselves they are crashing, then promptly fulfill their own prophesy. They basically gave up even trying to save it. I have got away With many crashes by trying and not giving up until it's over and I'm on the ground.
Case in point below, This was me on a ZX10R Superbike. I had only just got it and had to find the limit of the front end - something one simply has to do if they want to be at the pointy end. As you can see, I'm still trying to ride the bike despite clearly having crashed already :lol:

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/crash.jpg

[F5 Dave]

One minute my hands were full. The next they were empty :msn-wink:.

My mighty 50cc racer flicked me over the high side. Yeah i know. It happens.
I can Save it. I can save it. . . . I can read the number board. Oh shit.

[FJRider]

What is the sole rigidity like? Crashes can fold up the foot a bit.

They're heavy duty work boots. But easier to walk in than some motorcycle boots I've owned. Similar to Army boots but steel toecaps. And good ankle support. With regular treatment .. very waterproof. More waterproof than some motorcycle boots I've owned.

[R650R]

I was fortunate to be trained by an old school trucker whoÂ’d had his share of heavy metal interactions... One thing he passed on which I later put into practice twice is sometimes you may not be able to stop but you can CHOOSE what your going to hit.

So IÂ’m northbound from a day watching winter series at Manfield cruising at a dollar twenty on the GSXR back when it wasnÂ’t a heinous offence. Overtaking a grubby farm ute when he slams anchors and turns into driveway at my point of no return.
I grab a handful of brakes end up staring at front quarter panel... amazing the time your brain has to think in slow mo in these events. Headline Mc killed while overtaking turning vehicle you bastard it will look like my fault when you just havenÂ’t indicated or they were mud covered or didnÂ’t even look for me....
I realise current trajectory ends very badly, I still have an option...
I let go of brakes and violently turn to right and pass just in front of his bumper....
IÂ’m now on a rural grass verge at night still doing 70k probably but thinking us yay IÂ’m
Alive!!Â’
But then I see the next property has a letterbox on verge attached to a dam solid round post...
I remember lifting my foot of peg as leg amputation didnÂ’t seem like something I would like...
Somehow I miss that too and end up back on tarmac cruising in state of shock....

One issue from my side was I was out wide prob in his blind spot I used to give people too much room maybe.

IÂ’ve had my fair share of near misses (and actual crashes) but that has been my closest near death bike incident. 20 years ago and managed to avoid anything being as close as that through collective learning experiences on the road in trucks and bikes.

[FJRider]

I left my house with the visor just cracked an inch. A fly bounced off the chin piece and right up my nostril. Bleeerrgh. I had to push the other nostril closed and blow to get it out. What a disgusting start to the day.:mad:

Then I considered how the fly must have felt.

Have you ever got hit on your knee-cap ... by a stone flicked up by a car .. ??

[Bonez]

I was fortunate to be trained by an old school trucker whoÂ’d had his share of heavy metal interactions... One thing he passed on which I later put into practice twice is sometimes you may not be able to stop but you can CHOOSE what your going to hit.

So IÂ’m northbound from a day watching winter series at Manfield cruising at a dollar twenty on the GSXR back when it wasnÂ’t a heinous offence. Overtaking a grubby farm ute when he slams anchors and turns into driveway at my point of no return.
I grab a handful of brakes end up staring at front quarter panel... amazing the time your brain has to think in slow mo in these events. Headline Mc killed while overtaking turning vehicle you bastard it will look like my fault when you just havenÂ’t indicated or they were mud covered or didnÂ’t even look for me....
I realise current trajectory ends very badly, I still have an option...
I let go of brakes and violently turn to right and pass just in front of his bumper....
IÂ’m now on a rural grass verge at night still doing 70k probably but thinking us yay IÂ’m
Alive!!Â’
But then I see the next property has a letterbox on verge attached to a dam solid round post...
I remember lifting my foot of peg as leg amputation didnÂ’t seem like something I would like...
Somehow I miss that too and end up back on tarmac cruising in state of shock....

One issue from my side was I was out wide prob in his blind spot I used to give people too much room maybe.

IÂ’ve had my fair share of near misses (and actual crashes) but that has been my closest near death bike incident. 20 years ago and managed to avoid anything being as close as that through collective learning experiences on the road in trucks and bikes.

There's that dreaded "e" word again. No amout of classroom trailing will be better the experiance over a period of time.
Taking a group of riders through an area that was known to have bees, wasps etc around was absolutely stupid. What if a rider had a reaction if they got stung?

Out the back of Masterton riding with my visor completely down I had a bee come in my helment under the chin guard. Luckily for me it was quite happy to walk back and forth on the inside of the visor. I just slowed down a b, opened the visorr slowly a couple of inches and the bee figured out how to remove itself from inside my helmet.

[caspernz]

Taking a group of riders through an area that was known to have bees, wasps etc around was absolutely stupid. What if a rider had a reaction if they got stung?


Don't know what planet you live on chap, but on mine flying things are all around. The only variation is the quantity thereof.

I check the weather forecast as well, can't have anyone melting when it rains either :eek:

[Bonez]

Don't know what planet you live on chap, but on mine flying things are all around. The only variation is the quantity thereof.

I check the weather forecast as well, can't have anyone melting when it rains either :eek:

As an instructor you chose to take the riders though an area that was prone to Swarms. Did you tell the riders to p[ut a doughnut around their knecks?

Ya Connie flew down sputh on a flying thing.

Just saying...

[caspernz]

As an instructor you chose to take the riders though an area that was prone to Swarms. Did you tell the riders to p[ut a doughnut around their knecks?

Ya Connie flew down sputh on a flying thing.

Just saying...

When did I say swarms? And yep, the appropriate pre-ride briefing was done.

But go right ahead, exaggerate and assume all you want :brick:

[Bonez]

When did I say swarms? And yep, the appropriate pre-ride briefing was done.

But go right ahead, exaggerate and assume all you want :brick:" a valley known to be full of bugs/bees etc." suggests there will be a possibility of swarms.:drool:

[nzspokes]

Yup. Been stung a few times. Had them in me hemlet but the worst was riding into a swarm and getting multiple bees up the sleeves of my jacket. :shit:

Hit a pheasant "speed testing" an old 750 years ago. I hit it with the clutch lever and fractured my fingers before it hit my chest and embedded a pillow full of feathers into the zip. Same jacket as I got stung in. After managing to remove the jacket with one hand it never left the closet again.

I dread to think what would have happened if it hit the brake lever. Ouchies.

Year or two back I went out to make sure I knew a route after work that I was taking somebody out on that coming weekend.

Made the mistake of having my dark visor on. It got dark so I lifted it. Pretty soon after a bug nailed me in the eye.

It didnt get better. I ended up at the Eye unit with a nice lady digging the bug remains out of my eye with a needle. :eek5:

I cant say it was a fun time.

[actungbaby]

Which brake is the most powerful on the bike? Which is the most stable?

I don't have a favourite brake. I use both, in different proportions related to the circumstances in play at the time. Lean angle, momentum (speed), necessity, coefficient of surface friction, that sort of stuff.

I learned a thing or two when I learned to ride, on a CT90 on a farm in Western Southland in the 70's. Wet grass, front brake, down ya go. Get up, brush off the wet grass, off you go again. Front brake, down ya go. What did I learn? Bloody front brake, won't be touching that again.

I know many people who don't use the back brake at all, because the front brake is the most powerful. This is related to weight transfer arising from monentum.

I know just as many people who never use the front brake. Perhaps they had an off because they locked the front brake on a low friction surface (like me), perhaps they used the front brake while leaning in a U-turn, and tipped over (also part of my learning journey).

For example, on gravel at low speed, pulling the front brake on is likely to lock the front wheel due to a low coefficient of surface friction. Especially given the low speed, there's not much weight transfer anyway, and it's likely the back brake can remove the momentum perfectly well. Lock the back wheel on gravel, no biggie. Lock the front, down ya go.

The other end of the scale is when a plonker pulls out of a side road ahead of you. Assuming there is no escape path, and that an emergency stop is necessary, the front brake is crucial. Applying it progressively will commence the weight of the bike coming off the back wheel, reducing the ability of the rear brake to reduce momentum. The good news is that the weight coming off the back wheel is going onto the front wheel, compressing the suspension, travelling down through the forks, hub and spokes and flexing the sidewallls of the front tyer. If you have the tyre pressues correct, the contact patch speads put as it shpould giving you far better contact with the world, making your stop so much quicker. The back, while it's not removing much momentum, adds to the stability of the stop.

One thing that is clear is that those folk who only ever use one brake are compromising their riding, and probably their safety. And until the day it goes wrong, they won't even know it.Some bikes back brake more effective my forza 250 most scooters engine over that end.imagine goldwing the same. Good tip not pull clutch in when doing emergency stop.keeps back wheel hopping.
Yes i agree with you.

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[actungbaby]

But what if you have linked brakes, so when you use one, the bike uses both? :confused:

Or, if you have linked brakes and use the front only, it uses both, but use the rear only, and it only uses the rear? :shifty:
What about normal ABS settings with both ends on, vs offroad ABS where rear can be locked (ABS deactivated), but the front is still enabled? :bleh:Werid thing i felt front skid when was braking on 22 honda ct 125 with abs .wasint a problem .just moved forward for second.

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[george formby]

I do like a wee dredge..

The mention of scooters got me thinking, and trying to fix the wee wheels on me mulcher. Bastard things.. Mulcher wheels.

I ride a fair bit of dirt and the front chops out quite often but it's rarely a scenery tasting event.

So my pondering is that the bigger the front wheel the more time you have to react when losing teh traction? I've never seen a Penny-farthing tuck the front..:laugh:

Or is their summit else going on?

[Gremlin]

So my pondering is that the bigger the front wheel the more time you have to react when losing teh traction? I've never seen a Penny-farthing tuck the front..:laugh:

Or is their summit else going on?
Bigger diameter is mostly for rolling over uneven terrain more easily, dealing with bumps etc. It's also slower steering (hence why you see testers comment on the big front wheel of adventure bikes on the road, whether they notice or not).
Narrower so it grips better, less likely to float on top of stuff.

Beyond that, you have configuration of the geometry, weight of the bike, how the manufacturer wants it to steer etc. For example, my R1200GSA loves to plow a trench with the front in rougher stuff, really hard work, turning the wheel simply made it want to fall over. Took the 1090R onto sand, and it was less inclined to dig the front in, and more likely to loft it onto the sand and made things so much easier. The BMW has a 110/80/19 and 150/70/17 combo, whereas the KTM has a 90/90/21 and 150/70/18 combo...

[R650R]

So who’s practiced their emergency braking lately? Watching something on tube realised I hadn’t bothered in long time so on deserted rural road did several complete panic style stops with both brake controls from my normal cruising speed of a bit of spare change into tolerance zone on 200kg plus bike with ABS.

First stop was about 36m ish by completely unscientific paces from back of bike so about 40m prob, in simpler terms it was about 4 of the white centre line stripes. Later attempts were slightly better so yeah maybe doing more often is good idea.

Pretty sobering walking back to where you started and looking forward to where you did stop, looks strangely familiar to the distance you see wreckage scattered over and it looks further than you’d like. Anyhow have a go now and then…

[rastuscat]

So who’s practiced their emergency braking lately? Watching something on tube realised I hadn’t bothered in long time so on deserted rural road did several complete panic style stops with both brake controls from my normal cruising speed of a bit of spare change into tolerance zone on 200kg plus bike with ABS.

First stop was about 36m ish by completely unscientific paces from back of bike so about 40m prob, in simpler terms it was about 4 of the white centre line stripes. Later attempts were slightly better so yeah maybe doing more often is good idea.

Pretty sobering walking back to where you started and looking forward to where you did stop, looks strangely familiar to the distance you see wreckage scattered over and it looks further than you’d like. Anyhow have a go now and then…

Thing is, for practise you are eliminating reaction time. You know you are going to be braking, and probably even where. So reaction time isn't a factor.

In the real world, you don't get time to sit back and make a rational judgement as to the pros and cons of rear v front, the merits of the reason you have to brake, that sort of thing.

The point of repeated practise of good technique is to form muscle memory, so that when the doo hits the fan, you know what you'll do : you'll do what you have repeatedly taught yourself to do.

Unless you haven't bothered. Which significantly increases the chances that you'll snatch the front brake, lock the front wheel, and that you'll join the leagues of those who have visited the emergency room to have grit scrubbed from your flesh wounds.

Everyone thinks they know how to use the brakes. Because they don't know what they don't know. And nobody thinks their technique will let them down, until it does.

[F5 Dave]

Was thinking the other day; what proportion of regularly used bikes these days are ABS?
Have we seen a reduction of accidents, or reduction of severity in those kind of accidents?

The Ancient Hurt report said that many people do nothing and plow into the object. Can't help them. Perhaps we have 3 groups more. Like Goldilocks let's call them the underbrakers, the over brakers, and the just right brakers..

The just right brakers are on the limit and are most likely to come off best.
The overbrakers will be saved from a lock up crash by ABS, and ABS has got so much better over the years, that they will probably be sitting level with the just right brakers.

That sounds great .
So that means the underbrakers need to practice to believe how much and how quickly they can apply the brake..

The do nothing group could also train to be prepared. A suspicious mind imagines other people's potential mistakes and is already having a plan and positioning themselves to brake, reducing reaction time greatly.

A surprise wastes a lot of time.

[rastuscat]

A surprise wastes a lot of time.

It's one of the ironies of a good Ride Forever course, if delivered well.

We want people to be awesome at emergency braking, so that gets covered.

But the rest of the course is all about riding with awareness and anticipation, which mean you don't have to emergency brake.

Funny, I've practised emergency braking for years, but haven't had to use it for just as long.

[onearmedbandit]

Funny, I've practised emergency braking for years, but haven't had to use it for just as long.

I had to use it only a couple nights ago on a suburban street at dusk when a dog ran across the road, coming out from the front of a parked car. Thankfully both myself and the dog were fine. I'm glad to report that while hitting the picks I glanced in my rear view mirrors to check that the cars behind me had noticed my emergency braking. Thankfully they had. All this happened without having to think about it. This time.

[rastuscat]

I had to use it only a couple nights ago on a suburban street at dusk when a dog ran across the road, coming out from the front of a parked car. Thankfully both myself and the dog were fine. I'm glad to report that while hitting the picks I glanced in my rear view mirrors to check that the cars behind me had noticed my emergency braking. Thankfully they had. All this happened without having to think about it. This time.

Impressive, considering your circumstances.

[onearmedbandit]

Impressive, considering your circumstances.

Thankfully I have a bit of knowledge of what hard braking with one arm can achieve!

[R650R]

It's one of the ironies of a good Ride Forever course, if delivered well.

We want people to be awesome at emergency braking, so that gets covered.

But the rest of the course is all about riding with awareness and anticipation, which mean you don't have to emergency brake.

Funny, I've practised emergency braking for years, but haven't had to use it for just as long.

Nice in theory (not needing emergency brake) perhaps your just not doing enough km’s or the gods are looking after you.
Two words, Australian dashcams. You watch these KNOWING some weird dangerous stuff is about to be replayed but damn there’s an always a few surprises. Humans excel at doing dumb stuff no one thought possible.
Your right about reaction time makes the exercise even more sobering.

[R650R]

Thankfully I have a bit of knowledge of what hard braking with one arm can achieve!

Nice work, so just how much force is through the good arm vs gripping the tank?

[onearmedbandit]

Nice work, so just how much force is through the good arm vs gripping the tank?

I'd say 60% minimum through the arm, rest in the core and legs.

[rastuscat]

I'd say 60% minimum through the arm, rest in the core and legs.

I first saw that bike on the other wheel. You've changed.

[SaferRides]

It wasn't an emergency, but I did a reasonably hard stop from quite a bit more than100 a few months ago. Sobering.

There was a Fortnine video on ABS vs. non- ABS braking a while ago. My takeaway from that was that weight transfer on an ABS bike is just as important as on a non-ABS machine. So what works in an ABS car (hard on the brakes immediately) is not what you should do on a bike.

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[F5 Dave]

He also used a cheapo model (commuter honda of some description? ) which would not have state of the art brakes or abs.

[R650R]

It wasn't an emergency, but I did a reasonably hard stop from quite a bit more than100 a few months ago. Sobering.

There was a Fortnine video on ABS vs. non- ABS braking a while ago. My takeaway from that was that weight transfer on an ABS bike is just as important as on a non-ABS machine. So what works in an ABS car (hard on the brakes immediately) is not what you should do on a bike.

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Humans often think too much of their ability. Anyone who thinks they can apply the technique he described in a proper emergency should be calling HRC for MotoGP contract.
At beginning of collision evasion your impact velocity is highest, you want to reduce that immediately even if it was true that the system is not 100% efficiency. Because milliseconds later that wheel will have plenty enough weight on it while your brain is still calculating rear lever pressure.

[rastuscat]

Humans often think too much of their ability. Anyone who thinks they can apply the technique he described in a proper emergency should be calling HRC for MotoGP contract.
At beginning of collision evasion your impact velocity is highest, you want to reduce that immediately even if it was true that the system is not 100% efficiency. Because milliseconds later that wheel will have plenty enough weight on it while your brain is still calculating rear lever pressure.

That's the thing.

The point of repeated practise of emergency braking is to reinforce it into muscle memory. If you have to think what to do when trouble strikes, that's time spent that might matter at the point of impact.

A couple of runs on a fine day on an empty road will make bugger all difference when it matters, unless it is regularly practised.

But not many people practise their emergency braking, as they haven't experienced the need, and don't think they will.

[R650R]

That's the thing.

The point of repeated practise of emergency braking is to reinforce it into muscle memory. If you have to think what to do when trouble strikes, that's time spent that might matter at the point of impact.

A couple of runs on a fine day on an empty road will make bugger all difference when it matters, unless it is regularly practised.

But not many people practise their emergency braking, as they haven't experienced the need, and don't think they will.

Yes I agree. My original post was about stimulating that idea and reminding all we arent as good as we think we are. Out for a ride yesterday or was it day before I contemplated a couple of big stops but it was hot and I was tired, opted for reduced pace to mitigate lack of practice.
It’s funny in younger days riding Isle of Man pace everywhere I was prob getting plenty of braking practice now riding more sensible I’m prob not as good.
Perhaps ACC could develop an APP whereby if you register say 5 high g force braking movements within a prescribed timeframe each month (to signify training and not reckless random stuff ups) you could get a rego fee instant cashback.

[Berries]

Perhaps ACC could develop an APP whereby if you register say 5 high g force braking movements within a prescribed timeframe each month (to signify training and not reckless random stuff ups) you could get a rego fee instant cashback.
You could come at it the other way and say that if an app recorded five high G braking movements it is suggesting poor forward planning and you should pay extra for the inevitable crash that is coming.

A better method would be to reward time spent on the back wheel as an indication of handling skills, balance and coordination etc.

[F5 Dave]

Everyone should ride dirtbikes. When you get a push on you need to regularly practice that on the edge modulation.