Airbags, hmmm.

[george formby]

Interestin video from Fortnine for the well heeled and safety conscious.


https://youtu.be/N2jZryt607U

[onearmedbandit]

I watched that earlier, and I can't say that one of those wouldn't have prevented my life long injury. However now it would be difficult (not impossible) for me to take advantage of the current offerings. Unless I cut off my arm.

[caseye]

I watched that earlier, and I can't say that one of those wouldn't have prevented my life long injury. However now it would be difficult (not impossible) for me to take advantage of the current offerings. Unless I cut off my arm.

Bit of a Canundrum there OAB.
Can't argue with our mans logic on which is best.
I wonder how many have sold here in NZ?

[Laava]

One of the old duffers I ride with occasionally has one that he just plugs in to whichever bike he is riding. Can't remember the brand tho but it just looks like a regular jacket.
my neighbour has one for horse riding and it has deployed on her a couple of times. She says it is scary when it goes off but saves a few ribs and collar bones etc...

[Gremlin]

I watched that earlier, and I can't say that one of those wouldn't have prevented my life long injury. However now it would be difficult (not impossible) for me to take advantage of the current offerings. Unless I cut off my arm.
We would have to sacrifice a lot of movement to protect in all situations. Much like insurance, it increases the odds of being covered, but won't protect in every situation.

I've considered a neck brace, but it would reduce the ability to carry out headchecks. In some situations, it would give me more protection, but would increase my risk in others... Pros and cons

[F5 Dave]

I bought an Alpinestar Tech 5 late last year. Been easy to live with, keep it on a hanger, easy to charge. Toured in it, long days, only 1/2 discharged, USB charger for hour or so. Fits under jacket, not bad in heat when we did far north, no worse than leather usually.

Of course it won't save every crash. But using that as an excuse is silly. Wish I'd had it my last racing crash. Might have saved a bunch of bones.

Of course I'm lying here with some uncomfortable but healing ribs. So, no, it didn't save me in my last tumble off my dirtbike.

. . Of course it was safely at home at the time and I was wearing my fancy new leaat 5.5 full conventional high end armour.

Waiting for someone to develop a dirt airbag .

[Reckless]

I do like the way this blows up to support the helmet as I have a little neck damage from a road prang in 2006.
I looked into an airbag suit but the recharge cost put me off :(

I race with a Leatt neck brace and you are correct Gremlin no head checks although it doesn't cause me any hassle apart from that at all.
Movement and field of vision work well.

I'm guessing the Leatt would have to go in the bin if I went to one of these air bag set ups??

Edit: Just went and threw the Leatt on. Head checks not bad if your in a sit up position like my Z1r or Bonnie.
But the tuck position like my Road FZR1000 or race bike its a lot more restrictive.

[OddDuck]

I've got one (Helite Turtle) and have been riding with it for some time... about a year and a half now or so.

Anyway, no issues with movement, head checks etc aren't a problem, in fact I hardly notice it while riding. It's less intrusive than a back protector or under-jacket armour. The vest can shift a bit sideways if the gas canister and mechanism contact the fuel tank or tankbag - this tends to happen if I lean forward unfortunately. It's generally best to not have wallet, phone etc in jacket pockets underneath the gas gear for this reason.

I am finding problems with it. Not to do with the design. These are very human issues...

- social acceptance from other riders

- dickhead drivers and what I can only describe as 'fuckery'

The first I can fully agree with, the hi-vis Turtle really does not look cool. At all. Such is the price of full length spine protection including tailbone and neck bracing. The Tech-Air 5 or similar is waaaay better for on-ride respect.

The second is rare but pretty scary when it does happen... tailgating, getting overtaken and then cut off at the end of passing lanes, un-necessarily close overtakes (reach out and touch them as they're going by stuff). No overt and thus proveable hostile action though (so far). The vehicles doing it are all the same: bogan shitboxes. There's always been an element of this but it does seem to have increased since I started wearing the Turtle. It's got me thinking seriously about saving again for the black version, thus trading off SMIDSY against fuckery... honestly it is getting this dangerous. Fucking Upper Hutt.

All this said, after witnessing a mate's crash and what he had to go through during recovery, these days it's the back protector at a minimum and the Turtle for preference most of the time. A jacket alone isn't enough any more.

Reckless - one of the advantages of the Helite gear is that recharging is simple, repack the vest at the side of the road and replace the CO2 canister. It's 5 minutes and $25. They're doing an electronic version of the Turtle these days as well but I don't have any direct experience with it.

[nerrrd]

The most interesting thing about that video is his suggestion that they will eventually be made compulsory for street riding.

[F5 Dave]

Hes American and I'm not sure about some of his stuff.

[george formby]

Waiting for someone to develop a dirt airbag .

A dirtbag?

[onearmedbandit]

Hes American and I'm not sure about some of his stuff.

Canadian...

[F5 Dave]

Opps.

He does have a certain smugness that I obviously misinterpreted
He often makes good sense explaining stuff, but I feel he overstretches on some of his editorial conclusions

The battery thing is just another example. When was the last time your smartphone actually went dead flat?

[F5 Dave]

A dirtbag?

I did resist trying to work that in.

Will be a hard call to make a dirt use airbag not go off all the time yet make it inflate in slow speed front washes that can be quite a hard whack.

Also they need to have multiple cells and user replacement.

Be keen though. As you get older it takes longer to heal.

[george formby]

I did resist trying to work that in.

Will be a hard call to make a dirt use airbag not go off all the time yet make it inflate in slow speed front washes that can be quite a hard whack.

Also they need to have multiple cells and user replacement.

Be keen though. As you get older it takes longer to heal.

The rate at which I do alternative dismounts means I would never finish a ride for faffing with an airbag. Getting clay out of the body armour is hard enough.

[Blackbird]

Opps.

He often makes good sense explaining stuff, but I feel he overstretches on some of his editorial conclusions



Yep, I quite like him but his conclusions on chain lubricants was technically incorrect.

[onearmedbandit]

He often makes good sense explaining stuff, but I feel he overstretches on some of his editorial conclusions

The battery thing is just another example. When was the last time your smartphone actually went dead flat?

Agreed. But I must admit there are times where I go to head out somewhere and see my phone is at mid 20's charge and realise it won't last. Planned trips out not so much, but spontaneous ones more so.

[Kickaha]

But I must admit there are times where I go to head out somewhere and see my phone is at mid 20's charge and realise it won't last

You do realise you can go riding without one like we used to back in the olden days ?

[onearmedbandit]

You do realise you can go riding without one like we used to back in the olden days ?

You read too much into that my friend, on my bike I couldn't care less if my phone is charged or dead. But if I'm heading out for a social night and need my phone to say order an uber home then I need it to be charged.

[pritch]

You do realise you can go riding without one like we used to back in the olden days ?

Exactly. On the bike the phone is there in case I need it. Generally it'll be turned off, otherwise it's using up the battery endlessly searching for different cel towers and will not have as much battery in the event I actually need it.

Seriously, there is plenty chat time without needing to chat while riding.

[onearmedbandit]

Exactly. On the bike the phone is there in case I need it. Generally it'll be turned off, otherwise it's using up the battery endlessly searching for different cel towers and will not have as much battery in the event I actually need it.

Seriously, there is plenty chat time without needing to chat while riding.

Check my post above. I think F5 Dave was talking about cell phone battery charge in general life, not for riding specifically. However if your cell phone battery is running out that quick though from just searching for towers then I would suggest you need a new phone. I only need my cell on a ride for an emergency and I've taken it on 4hr rides with less than 50% numerous times, and surprise it's still at roughly the same level 2hrs later when i check it to see if my children etc have contacted me.

[F5 Dave]

Agreed. But I must admit there are times where I go to head out somewhere and see my phone is at mid 20's charge and realise it won't last. Planned trips out not so much, but spontaneous ones more so.
Prior planning. . Blah blah blah, something.

[onearmedbandit]

Prior planning. . Blah blah blah, something.

Prior planning for an unplanned event? Like some friends saying hey let’s go for dinner and head to the bar after.

[ellipsis]

...I am immortal until the day I die...unless I'm not breathing, air won't save me...

...if I was in a ditch with the lower leg bones sticking half way out my arse, a fully charged cell battery could save me...you could add broked ribs, smashed clavicles, floppy wrists...etc...

[onearmedbandit]

...I am immortal until the day I die...unless I'm not breathing, air won't save me...

...if I was in a ditch with the lower leg bones sticking half way out my arse, a fully charged cell battery could save me...you could add broked ribs, smashed clavicles, floppy wrists...etc...

The only reason cell phone batteries came into this topic was as an analogy for airbag vest batteries being flat before you go for a ride.

[Gremlin]

The battery thing is just another example. When was the last time your smartphone actually went dead flat?
I know it's just a point but, earlier this week. Irritating and it gets charged every night, just had a very busy day.


You do realise you can go riding without one like we used to back in the olden days ?
:shit: Get out!

yeah yeah, I often turn off my mobile when either I can, or I'm doing decent distance and I don't need it wasting battery searching for towers (airplane mode is also good like that)

[ellipsis]

The only reason cell phone batteries came into this topic was as an analogy for airbag vest batteries being flat before you go for a ride.

...all relevant to the drift...I'd rather know I had backup than an airbag..., you gotta die of something at the end of the day...you didn't... fucked you up, but yer still going hard, doing it...

...can't remember how many bones I've broken riding two wheels...lotsa luck means I'm immortal 'til the day I die...spoke to my dad on a Bell Telephone a few moments before he died...I was 12,000 miles away...phones are cool...

...much better than a dirtbag...:shifty:

[pritch]

Check my post above. I think F5 Dave was talking about cell phone battery charge in general life, not for riding specifically. However if your cell phone battery is running out that quick though from just searching for towers then I would suggest you need a new phone. I only need my cell on a ride for an emergency and I've taken it on 4hr rides with less than 50% numerous times, and surprise it's still at roughly the same level 2hrs later when i check it to see if my children etc have contacted me.

I originally brought a cell phone to have with me on solo rides. If I should have need of a phone I want a fully charged one. YMMV.

[george formby]

Cell phones?

Pah, better off with flares where we ride. Reception is nil.

Actually, better off with one of those gps things that call for a helicopter. It's the only way out if you can't ride or walk.

[Reckless]

Plenty of Airbags here talk about a thread hijack - Cellphones - jeepers LMAO:2thumbsup:brick::whistle::scooter::scooter::s cooter:

[george formby]

Guilty as charged but pertinent to the off roady, dirty, skew.:weep:

[onearmedbandit]

I originally brought a cell phone to have with me on solo rides. If I should have need of a phone I want a fully charged one. YMMV.

I think you've totally missed the point and taken the conversation down an odd tangent. The analogy with cellphone batteries being flat when needed was brought about by Fortnine with regards to battery powered airbag protection.

[caspernz]

The Helite airbag vest is triggered by a tether attached to the bike, no batteries involved. I know this as I've ordered one after doing the yanking on the tether to inflate it, in a demo situation.
Is it a good idea? To me it is, especially on account of the HANS device effect under the helmet.

The next step might be an ELB for once I get back to riding in the boonies all by myself. The value of an emergency locator beacon is undeniable for solo riders or even groups who venture off the beaten track.

Congrats to all you buggers for taking this thread onto a tangent :yawn:

[R650R]

I've got one (Helite Turtle) and have been riding with it for some time... about a year and a half now or so.

Anyway, no issues with movement, head checks etc aren't a problem, in fact I hardly notice it while riding. It's less intrusive than a back protector or under-jacket armour. The vest can shift a bit sideways if the gas canister and mechanism contact the fuel tank or tankbag - this tends to happen if I lean forward unfortunately. It's generally best to not have wallet, phone etc in jacket pockets underneath the gas gear for this reason.

I am finding problems with it. Not to do with the design. These are very human issues...

- social acceptance from other riders

- dickhead drivers and what I can only describe as 'fuckery'

The first I can fully agree with, the hi-vis Turtle really does not look cool. At all. Such is the price of full length spine protection including tailbone and neck bracing. The Tech-Air 5 or similar is waaaay better for on-ride respect.

The second is rare but pretty scary when it does happen... tailgating, getting overtaken and then cut off at the end of passing lanes, un-necessarily close overtakes (reach out and touch them as they're going by stuff). No overt and thus proveable hostile action though (so far). The vehicles doing it are all the same: bogan shitboxes. There's always been an element of this but it does seem to have increased since I started wearing the Turtle. It's got me thinking seriously about saving again for the black version, thus trading off SMIDSY against fuckery... honestly it is getting this dangerous. Fucking Upper Hutt.

All this said, after witnessing a mate's crash and what he had to go through during recovery, these days it's the back protector at a minimum and the Turtle for preference most of the time. A jacket alone isn't enough any more.

Reckless - one of the advantages of the Helite gear is that recharging is simple, repack the vest at the side of the road and replace the CO2 canister. It's 5 minutes and $25. They're doing an electronic version of the Turtle these days as well but I don't have any direct experience with it.

Yep needless wearing of hi vis will make you a target it just screams Karen in a world that is sick of the health and safety cancel culture. Perhaps make a biker style black vest cover for it???

Good info in your review and experience.

[R650R]

Cellphone battery - NEVER use Bluetooth, also turn of wifi otherwise it’s pinging trying to connect to something not there.
Avoid using any GPS app that tracks your ride unless it’s for a special project or vid and you really want that info. Two hours of Strava in bike park would hammer my phone badly.
Stay off FAKEBOOK, as all it’s algorythyms data rape you browser history and email clients and location data it smashes your battery.
If your riding in a sporty manner it should be powered off anyway lest thectower ping data be incriminating in an accident investigation...

[SaferRides]

Cellphone battery - NEVER use Bluetooth, also turn of wifi otherwise it’s pinging trying to connect to something not there.
Avoid using any GPS app that tracks your ride unless it’s for a special project or vid and you really want that info. Two hours of Strava in bike park would hammer my phone badly.
Stay off FAKEBOOK, as all it’s algorythyms data rape you browser history and email clients and location data it smashes your battery.
If your riding in a sporty manner it should be powered off anyway lest thectower ping data be incriminating in an accident investigation...

Easiest way is to put the phone into flight mode. Just remember to turn it off if you want to use the phone to communicate...

Or put the phone into a power save mode. Mine will last 2 days on medium power saving.

[F5 Dave]

Or just buy a phone that's not a POS.

[nerrrd]

Yep needless wearing of hi vis will make you a target it just screams Karen in a world that is sick of the health and safety cancel culture. Perhaps make a biker style black vest cover for it???

Good info in your review and experience.

Or in the real world you could just buy a black one.

[OddDuck]

Thanks R650R, at this stage the plan is to save up again and get the black Turtle version 2 - it has a lot less of a tail on it than V1. There's also an e-Turtle 2 which has both in-vest and on-bike sensors mounted on the forks, ie deploys on a front wheel impact. Or at least it looks like it should. I'll have to do more reading to confirm.

Good point about the Karen thing, when I'd bought the hi-vis turtle, I'd done that before Covid-19, roadcones everywhere and cancel culture. Things have changed and an angry response to safety initiatives... yes it's now something isn't it?

I got interested and did a bit of reading on the airbags a few nights ago. Long post follows... TL;DR - any airbag spendy and a bit of a hassle but well worth it in a crash.

There are four main types of motorcycle airbag:

1) integral to the bike, like a car airbag - at present the only bike doing this is the Honda Goldwing.

2) a vest worn over normal riding gear - examples are the Helite Turtle, Hit-Air, Sidi DPS Tex Vest and multiple clones

3) a vest worn under the jacket - Alpinestars Tech Air 5, Dainese Smart D-Air etc

4) an entire jacket with integral airbag - these can be textile ADV style jackets, high speed race suits, or anything in between - Helite, Dainese, Alpinestars etc all do these.

Triggering is either a leash and pull mechanism or electronic, software and algorithm controlled firing. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Leash: Simple, cheap, as reliable as the rider, will only fire if rider parts company from the bike. A leash may not work in a low side slide, for example. To my mind the biggest disadvantage is that the leash introduces a time and distance delay on the airbag deploying. This is critical in a vehicle vs bike crash. Generally re-loadable at the side of the road post deployment due to association with CO2 cartridges and simple airbag designs, low tech but user friendly.

Electronic: yes it's got batteries, yes they go flat. Reports from users are that this isn't really an issue in real life, if you can look after a cellphone then you can look after an airbag. The big issue with most of the electronic vests isn't accidental firing or failure to fire (that's pretty well sorted these days), it's that most of the manufacturers require a factory re-pack. That said, how often does a rider wipe out? One potential issue is the technology aging badly; how well will the fancy whizzbangs be working in five, ten, more years? Generally: more convenient, more responsive, more expensive.

Firing and deployment time: something interesting here, fill times from triggering are widely quoted but deployment times from a crash starting are not. Granted, crashes are chaotic events but still, knowing delays from a standard crash like the front wheel hitting the flank of the vehicle would be nice... nobody quotes these. Instead you get "40ms from firing to full airbag pressure" and so on. These are deceptive. Airbag volume comes into it too: small airbags fire faster but protect less.

Then there's this key question: what sort of crash does the rider want to protect against?

The under jacket vests and race suits appear to be better for mostly horizontal, low-height, high speed crashes such as found on a racetrack, particularly crashes with a slide. They can offer shoulder protection but are limited by the jacket collar in terms of neck bracing. Collarbone protection against the helmet rim can also be an issue due to the low front volumes of some of the vests.

The over jacket, high volume vests like the Turtle appear to be best at protecting a rider against low speed, high height crashes, ie get catapulted in the crash, come down hard, or sudden stoppages like going into things roadside such as kerbs or lamp posts. Currently vests really are vests, they don't have sleeves, and I haven't seen anything on the market that would protect a rider's shoulders. All the popular choices offer excellent neck bracing.

The integral stuff, airbags built directly into jackets or race suits, is still a rarity and I didn't find any direct rider reports. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't as good as or better than either of the vest types though.

Any type offer significantly more protection than any armour on the market, purely by volume: more 'shell' around the rider means longer and softer deceleration time. Bring the G's down and the consequences come down too. Almost everyone who has crashed wearing an airbag is emphatic that it helped: injuries greatly reduced or eliminated completely. The usual story is that after crashing in it, they now won't ride without it.

All of the airbag kit gets in the way of cooling airflow, to greater or lesser degree, but then so does riding in anything more than a t-shirt. My experience with the Turtle was that it reduced cooling airflow through a mesh front jacket but didn't eliminate it.

There's a history. Bits of the airbag technology appear to have been around for some time. From what I've seen, the Hit-Air has been on the market since the early 90's. Helite got into it through equestrian stuff and riders coming off horses head-first, which is why they've got such an emphasis on neck protection. Dainese and Alpinestars have been highly involved with racetrack and Moto GP stuff, hence their gear's ability in a high speed slide. Convergence to a standard set of solutions appears to be happening but things are still evolving.

Pricing is still the main entry barrier for most, even though it's coming down. Roughly $1K is about standard for a vest at the moment, with integral suits and so on costing more. Cheapo no-name brand options are available, particularly in the leash and CO2 technology. If self-employed, outages from being able to work - or reductions in income protection insurance etc - may be worth thinking about, but most of us will simply have to pony up the readies and put up with the cost.

I think that they're going to start gaining wide acceptance. I'm starting to see that with my own gear - anyone who's crashed or had neck or spinal surgery gets very interested in the Turtle, for example. At present though, the pricing is a serious entry barrier and for most riders, crashing is an abstract risk. It looks like there's some way to go yet. It's a shame. As someone else put it, the cost of a decent airbag vest at present is the same price as a good helmet and there's no longer any debate about that.

[Reckless]

Good summary OddDuck :)

I don't think a tethered Vest would have helped me when I smashed my collarbone at a race meeting.
The pack was still pretty much around me, then the guy in front highsided. Tried to lean in and go under but lowsided :brick:
My shoulder hit before me and the bike parted company so I agree with your analysis about tethers - pretty much spot on :)
I do wonder if my Leatt had anything to do with it as they are rumored to break collarbones but pretty sure the shoulder directly impacted the ground.

Anyway just a little confirmation of your findings :)

[BMWST?]

Yep needless wearing of hi vis will make you a target it just screams Karen in a world that is sick of the health and safety cancel culture. Perhaps make a biker style black vest cover for it???

Good info in your review and experience.
you can get black ones apparently

[caspernz]

The airbag vest is an improvement. As per OddDuck's review, it won't protect in all crashes, but it's a step forward for some accidents.

As for being seen as a health & safety fan, oh heck I couldn't care less.

[Berries]

you can get black ones apparently
Jesus, now we are off on a royal family tangent.

[pritch]

Plenty of Airbags here talk about a thread hijack - Cellphones - jeepers LMAO:2thumbsup:brick::whistle::scooter::scooter::s cooter:

Air bags are not the anwer to all safety concerns. This dude hasn't even got gloves or boots...

[nerrrd]

Helmets won't protect you from every kind of injury either, but most of us wouldn't ride without one these days.

If an airbag jacket/vest reduces the level of trauma for neck/spine/hip injuries to the same extent as helmets do for head injuries, surely that would be a no brainer.

[rastuscat]

We would have to sacrifice a lot of movement to protect in all situations. Much like insurance, it increases the odds of being covered, but won't protect in every situation.

I've considered a neck brace, but it would reduce the ability to carry out headchecks. In some situations, it would give me more protection, but would increase my risk in others... Pros and cons

The Helite inflates significantly around the neck and shoulders. it would give you neck brace protection, without being in the way when not needed.

[Navy Boy]

Good summary there Odduck.

I view them as being just another tool that's there for you to use should you feel the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I own an older Helite Airbag jacket that I use as well. That's good but heavy and ruddy warm when the weather warms up - Hence I prefer the vest option.

The way I view it it's too late to debate it if you have a spill and you wish you'd been wearing one. ;)

[TheDemonLord]

I'm going to chime in on this thread with a slight tangent: a few years ago, Formula 1 introduced the HALO, to improve driver safety.

At the time it was criticized:

- Restricted driver Vision
- Ugly
- Not in the Spirit of F1
- Impede a drivers ability to exit in the event of a Crash

etc.

When Romain Grosjean speared into and through the barrier at over 160 KPH and burst into flame, It turns out that the HALO was the thing that stopped him from pretty much getting decapitated.

Likewise I see many parallels between the new Biker Air-bags and the HALO. I'm certain that there will be some fringe scenarios where the Air Bag may cause additional injury or even death over an identical accident without.

I'm also certain that the first and second generation of Air-bags will have ergonomic, comfort, technical issues that when exposed to the wider riding public will be identified and resolved.

But all that said - Giving an extra layer of active protection to increase the chance of walking away from an Off is only ever going to be a good thing IMO

[george formby]

Crikey, I know F1 is fast but never realised the drivers wear parachutes.:eek5:

[OddDuck]

I've gone and bought a Tech-Air V in addition to the Turtle. I'd been checking various reviews online and there was something lacking: a side by side comparison of the two from an owner. Thought that this might be useful so am posting some direct experiences... and some pitfalls.

The Tech-Air V was purchased after finally admitting that there's a problem with the Turtle: the gas canister and discharge / leash mechanism just don't work with a lean-forward sportsbike like the 900SS, which has a seat tucked in behind a high tank. The cylinder keeps engaging on the corner of the fuel tank during fast riding and pulling the vest sideways. This can get annoying, but it's also distracting - obviously not the best during a tricky corner. I'd considered the Turtle II as a replacement but even though the discharge cylinder is now covered, it's still in front and in the same position.

The other issue with the Turtle vest is the large tail: this can be pushed upward by the raised pillion seat or cowling, and that pushed the entire vest up against the rider's helmet. It doesn't affect head mobility and therefore being able to look around, but it does get seriously annoying if it happens repeatedly.

An upright position bike with a gently sloped fuel tank and a flat-ish seat (say, the Indian FTR1200) wouldn't have these problems. Even a sports-tourer like my ST2 doesn't really have these issues, as long as I don't tuck down into the tank. But on the 900SS it's a right pain, spoils the ride, and I'd finally decided I'd had enough, hence the purchase.

A look at the photos of the two side by side should illustrate the biggest difference: priority in coverage. The Tech-Air V is all about upper body protection. The Turtle is all about full length spine protection plus coverage for the pelvis. Now, before someone chimes in with the suggestion that I ride with both... No. Thanks. One's enough. Really. At some point the ATGATT has to stop.

Now for some direct experience... the two vests are very much chalk and cheese, even though they're supposed to do the same job.

First few rides with the Turtle: having several moments of realising I'd forgotten to clip in before riding off, and therefore was riding without protection. Pull over, clip in, done. I did step off the bike without unclipping once or twice, but there was no deployment or dragging the bike over. The pull on the leash was enough to bring me up short before anything happened. Two weeks of normal riding got the clip-in, clip-out habits established and now I catch myself going to unclip while wearing a normal back protector or the TA V.

First few rides with the TA V: I felt like I was wearing a hair trigger. Bump... BANG. Didn't happen, although I've taken to opening the jacket and unzipping the vest every time I'm off the bike and walking around. That habit is relaxing pretty rapidly, although I'm aware that there's a local story of a rider descending some steps, missing one, and having the vest go off before getting a foot safely down on the next step down. It reacts to a free fall that quickly.

Riding the 900SS with the TA V: brilliant, no issues whatever with gear getting in the way. I can forget that it's there.

Ventilation: the winner here is the Turtle. It can be worn slightly loose over a slightly loose jacket, with airflow available through the open center of the vest. Good air movement inside the jacket, even leathers, can be had if there's center mesh. The TA V is, despite mesh linings etc, very definitely riding while wearing a plastic bag. It's good for staying warm on a colder day, probably perfectly usable in summer with a wicking / cooling top of some kind - but I think I'll be taking breaks with jacket and vest off fairly frequently. I don't have any experience with the TA V and perforated leathers; it's possible that this would make life a lot more comfy.

Visibility: with the TA V, I can high-vis or not at will with an affordable, easy to fold and carry Revit vest. With the Turtle, it's high-vis or black, decision made at purchase and lived with thereafter.

Rain: the Turtle can get saturated without issues, even submerged fully, and I'd still expect it to work. The TA V doesn't seem to feature weather sealing on the recharge port and water ingression into the electronics is... probably not good. Riding in hosing down rain might be best avoided - the TA V definitely leads to a hump on the rider's back and this may affect the fit and neck sealing of wets. The TA V manual specifically bans submersion i.e. washing.

Durability: both vests have clocks ticking on their use-by dates. The Turtle should have its airbag replaced every 5 years, and gas canisters should be weighed annually to ensure that there's still enough CO2. The TA V has to go in for servicing every two years.

Deployment: haven't yet with either, want to keep it that way. The Turtle can be repacked and recharged roadside, which is a major advantage on a multiday back country tour. Replacement of the airbag should happen after the fifth deployment. The TA V requires packing and sending to the Alpinestars agent on each deployment, plus paying a fee.

Dirt and Cleaning: the Turtle picks up bugs, road tar and dust, but it's no issue to sponge it down at the end of the day. Soap and lukewarm water does the job. The TA V can be lightly swabbed with a cloth dampened with water, but that's it... no chemicals of any kind. I haven't had to do this yet. Since it is basically a garment, I'm expecting it to get a bit stinky before it's in for service, when the lining gets removed and washed.

Triggering: the Turtle fires if the leash is yanked good and hard. The TA V fires if an algorithm using sensors and crash data decides that it's time to go. The Turtle will not protect against a lowside if the rider stays with the bike. The TA V is not really compatible with a dirt riding type environment such as might be found adventuring - what is described as "light gravel road riding" is about the limit. It doesn't like jumps, big bumps, or wheelies.

Abrasion resistance: the Turtle will slide, the TA V is simply not abrasion resistant and needs a jacket over the top.

Readiness checks: the Turtle's clip can be checked with a gloved hand while riding, to confirm that the leash is clipped in and the vest is good to go. The TA V is a different story: the LED status indicator, by the nature of the design, is underneath the jacket. Checking that lights are still green means pulling over and opening up to have a look. There is an app (of course) but I haven't tried using this yet, and am not a fan of having a device on the bars anyway - but it could be done this way if the rider was inclined. So far I haven't had an issue with confidence in the vest, provided it's zipped up before the jacket is done up. I have almost made that mistake. The TA V has to be zipped from bottom to top, with the velcro flap closed, to activate. If closing garments by feel, with layers of zips, it can be easy to get the wrong one and think it's the vest.

Delay in readiness: the Turtle is good to go as soon as the clip locks. The TA V has a brief System Check, approx 30 secs or so from the zips being closed. During this check it will not fire. Walking around, mounting the bike, initial riding can all be a part of this time... and if it fails the system check, the vest will not fire. Indication is only by LEDs on that waist panel.

Riding gear compatibility: the Turtle will go over anything. Existing kit does not need to be updated, all a rider has to do is to get the sizing right. However sizing can change if layers go on for winter or come off for summer... there is some strap adjustment in the Turtle but in practice I've found that it's got very limited range.

The TA V is another story. This is the main pitfall for anyone wanting one: there must be enough room inside riding gear for the airbag to deploy, or the rider must have gear with stretch panels. Currently only Alpinestar's limited offerings of Tech-Air Compatible leathers offer these.

The manual for the TA V states:

Measure the circumference of the chest, just under the armpits - this is dimension A

Lay the jacket flat and measured the width, armpit to armpit - this is dimension B

If B > (1/2 A) + 12, then you're good to go with the Tech-Air system. The manual doesn't state units but I'll assume it's cm.

This translates to 4 cm of clearance around the entire perimeter of whatever the rider is currently wearing, with the TA V in place. It's terribly easy to hear that if you've got 4cm in front then you're OK, no need for more bucks. No. You need 4cm in front, 4cm on each side, and 4cm all across the back, at the same time. A loose textile jacket will do it but leathers can be a different story - in my case I'm now looking at replacing my current set with the Alpinestars ones. I really wish I'd known this properly before making the purchase decision.

On that note... the TA V will work with 2-piece leathers, expansion problem aside. The tail of the airbag tucks under the raised back panel of the pants quite easily, perimeter zip done up, rider's good to go, and from that point on the vest just feels like a normal back protector.

Sizing / shaping: Again, the Turtle is a bit more easygoing here. There are mens and women's options for just about everyone. The TA V sizing options are more limited and there have been expressions of frustration with sizing from some riders, especially women. Best tried on in the shop - really.

Social acceptance: for many of us, the biggie.... hands down the TA V for the win. The black version of the Turtle is quite discrete though, especially worn over synthetics.

Crash Protection: yeah. Not sure. About all I'll say here is that both vests feature integral, passive, CE certified back protectors. These will work even if the airbag doesn't. The TA V will protect a rider's shoulders, the Turtle will protect a rider's neck, and frankly it's a bit frustrating that a choice has to be made but currently that's the way things are.

[Skipper]

Anyone using a the new tech air 10? Thoughts?

[george formby]

Hmmm, must remember to put a box on the front of me bike.


https://youtu.be/UNYBCX7zhb0

[Reckless]

I have a Tech Air 5 for racing and road.

I have no problem with the app and changing from road to race modes.

Road
Alpinestars Faster V2 Road jacket Near new, still smelled like leather, off marketplace for 4 hundy and find no issues with the Tech 5.
You can leave the sleeve vents open and the main jacket zip down to about the level of the Tech5 activator to get some Air in.
Putting the jacket on over the Tech 5 is not an Issue but you have to take two things off when you stop and then find a place to hang or put them.
I dont find the hump at the back a problem.
The tech 5 is expensive so I am wary of someone pinching it.
And OddDuck Is right all my old gear became redundant unless I wanted to ride without the Tech 5. The proper Alpinestars jackets fit best because of the expansion panels.


Track
I have Alpinestars Ignition V2 race suit and had an event where it went off into turn 1 at Puke and thats fast.
Glad I had it as my first thought was shit the grass is soft then realised I was blown up.
I ride with it all the time now road and track.
Recharge was $350-00

The only Issue I have with the Tech 5 vs the full race suit is with the design of the Tech 5 back unit.
It should slope or ramp down to the vest.
I can't get my bloody suit on without assistance as the tech unit has a lip under (very bad design) and catches on the unit.
Really bad design for something supposed to do track and road and they don't do the zip in "race model" one anymore by the looks.

352438

If I could afford 2k I'd get the full Tech 10 suit depending on the recharge costs?? Being smashed off the track proved how good they are 10/10.

[F5 Dave]

My humps seems way slimmer than that. I'd take a picture but just dropped it off today for first two year service.

[Reckless]

My humps seems way slimmer than that. I'd take a picture but just dropped it off today for first two year service.

You will notice its pulled up out of its seating because the suit wont slide over the top.
I spoke to Scott from Crown Kiwi today about modding it but he was concerned about warranty.
Says they get a bit of complaint about this even with the new Tech 10.
The zipper hole in the Alpinestars Ignition Missile isn't the best either.

Very lucky my Missus pits for me 9/10 times. Bikes up and down, Warmers on/off, Lunch, Lap times, food when we Travel/sleep over.
TBH Hate going without her now LOL
She's also in charge of graphic design LOL

352439

[F5 Dave]

Mine is used in 2 piece leathers so no doing the dance of the Neanderthal trying to get it on, although I could do that dance in my sleep from 27 years racing. Just wished I'd had the air vest then.

If whilst sleeping in a chair because you can't lie down, on the 2nd night a vision had come to me and said " pay a thousand dollars now and youd be tucked up next to the wife comfortably sleeping. . Ok how about 1350?" I'd be throwing 20s in every direction.

[F5 Dave]

That video in the first instance delivers him to the ground in the friendliest way possible. Not that I'd have the guts to do that voluntarily. You could easily tumble and test more than you wished.

The 2nd one is just plain scary. He jumps and flips, but you can see how easy it would be to get legs and feet caught up on way through bars and fairing. Most people wouldn't have presence of mind to jump, largely because they didn't plan to ride into a stationery object.

[george formby]

That video in the first instance delivers him to the ground in the friendliest way possible. Not that I'd have the guts to do that voluntarily. You could easily tumble and test more than you wished.

The 2nd one is just plain scary. He jumps and flips, but you can see how easy it would be to get legs and feet caught up on way through bars and fairing. Most people wouldn't have presence of mind to jump, largely because they didn't plan to ride into a stationery object.

Yeah, going over the bars can be a world of pain. Done it a few times off road when a big hole, ditch, tree or rock has leapt out and accosted me. Or the front wheel spotted a possum. Always really painful.

The "having a lie down" technique is just tough on gear, praise the lord and pass the ATGATT.
A long time ago and far, far away I had to lay my Aprillia down to go underneath a truck and trailer which was right across the road. Long story which I will never forget.
Scratched and bent bike but still rideable and pretty knackered textiles. Still gaffa tapeable.

I may end up with an airbag jacket at some point but it will take me a bit longer to get exploding pants. Probably have a sidecar by then, anyway.

[F5 Dave]

I'm waiting for practical dirt vest. Must carry two charges and be owner swappable back in the pits. Won't be perfect as to when it goes off so needs passive armour as well.

[george formby]

Thinking about the consequences of my Superman impressions, a nice wee air bag that tucks in the front of my undies would be comforting.
Smacking the boys off the petrol cap at a fair rate of knots does knock the wind out of me.

Bring back the codpiece.

[F5 Dave]

…and codpiece, My Lord?

Well, let's go for the Black Russian, shall we? It always terrifies the clergy!

[rastuscat]

The 2nd one is just plain scary. He jumps and flips, but you can see how easy it would be to get legs and feet caught up on way through bars and fairing.

Yes. If you check the video again, the handlebar appears to have been caught by his thigh, bending it forward.

Which is what happened to a Popo on a patrol bike on the West Coast a few years ago. His left inner though caught the left handle bar as he went over the front of the bike, causing no end of hurt. Broke the bar off too, that's how hard it hit.

There really isn't a fool p[roof way to come off a bike. Few things can prepare you for every eventuality. But airbag vests are a good start toward better protection, for most situations.

[Kickaha]

Most people wouldn't have presence of mind to jump, largely because they didn't plan to ride into a stationery object.

Some motorcycle safety thing I read decades ago suggested in the event of an accident like that if you had time to stand up so you didn't get smashed up by the bars, I'd be too busy thinking oh fuck oh fuck I'm going to die

[F5 Dave]

Sometimes when racing as you know, you are at full concentration, unlike commuting when you are bored. You predict and can feel when you are going down or when someone falls off right in front of you and you can't avoid them and make a plan of how to fall. Like a ninja.:tugger:
Other times you are on the ground still holding the bars going, what happened??:scratch:

The chance of a road collision where you have enough time to plan acrobatics, you probably had enough time to not be in that situation.

[george formby]

Sometimes when racing as you know, you are at full concentration, unlike commuting when you are bored. You predict and can feel when you are going down or when someone falls off right in front of you and you can't avoid them and make a plan of how to fall. Like a ninja.:tugger:
Other times you are on the ground still holding the bars going, what happened??:scratch:

The chance of a road collision where you have enough time to plan acrobatics, you probably had enough time to not be in that situation.

I think training is a big help for the elegant ejection. I spent years firing myself into the scenery, still do, now and again, to keep in practice.

The sport I did as a yoof has also been a big help, basically some big bastard throwing me about. I'm a black belt at roly polys.

But yeah, the instantaneous horizontal cornering technique trumps anything.

Black ice is shit.

Dunno how good my reactions would be nowadays and I prefer not to find out.

[BMWST?]

I dont know where I saw it but Honda has some patents on an air bag system which partially envelopes the rider with air bags from within the bike. I think its motogp stuff but i guess thats where it makes the most sense for now

[F5 Dave]

I wonder what percentage of accidents the rider stays with the bike? Sounds dumb.
.

[BMWST?]

I wonder what percentage of accidents the rider stays with the bike? Sounds dumb.
.
I think the airbag stays with the rider after it deploys

[Kickaha]

I wonder what percentage of accidents the rider stays with the bike? Sounds dumb.
.

The system I saw was to stop the rider getting tangled up in the bars and other hard parts

[F5 Dave]

Perhaps some sort of Ramp/ejection seat, coupled with a low level parachute so you could land safely on the other side of the carnage, ruffle your Bat Cap and proclaim Tah-Dah! :wings:

[Reckless]

Really good test of the Tech 5 like mine.
I guess I can go Adventure biking with now :)

Real world stuff not Marketing bullshit - Very interesting.

I just wish it didn't cost $350 to get a recharge :nono::weep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyhIKBm5sCk

[MD]

Received this advertising email from motomail . Quite impressive looking kit. As you racer guys using them have said they look difficult to wear and fit into.

In 1978 I T-boned a car doing an unexpected, un-indicated U-turn. I hit the centre pillar of the car. My reactions being young and recovering from a recent broken leg (tibia and fibula) were good. I knew my fragile leg would not cope well with any impact. I had no time to swerve or brake beyond about 1 second so I jumped straight up to go over the roof and wait for the gentle slide (forever the optimist). I was almost smiling with pride as I saw the car roof passing harmlessly underneath me. Good job, well done I thought. Nah, tumbled in flight and had no idea where the road surface was until it hit me and broke my femur. Hah, at least my bike trashed dickheads car. In that crash I doubt an air suit would have helped but I can see they sure will reduce impacts in many cases.