Oil analysis - new bikes

[Jeeper]

https://youtu.be/9GAUo8eUXeU

Another educational video from Ryan and the team.

[Bonez]

I'll stick to what the motorcycle manufacturer recommends thank you.

[george formby]

Crikey, who would have picked that result?

Well, 1st place anyhoo.

[Jeeper]

Crikey, who would have picked that result?

Well, 1st place anyhoo.Surprised, definitely.

[Blackbird]

Particle size measurement is only part of the story. Spectroscopy is the other part to determine wear debris composition and where it's coming from (bearings, rings, the bore etc). Industrial tribology and plant condition monitoring was part of my remit before I retired from the pulp and paper industry. Our company got to try Mobil 1 in some of our vehicles when it was still being developed and samples were analysed on a monthly basis. The wear debris from Mobil 1 was significantly less than the regular multigrade we used but the high cost outweighed the benefit at that stage so we continued with multigrade. It's a complicated field but you can make it less complicated by sticking in the recommended lube for peace of mind :niceone:

[HenryDorsetCase]

One of my friends runs a business with a lot of heavy earthmoving machinery and they routinely send oil samples out for analysis - every oil, every service. Money well spent he said.

[Blackbird]

One of my friends runs a business with a lot of heavy earthmoving machinery and they routinely send oil samples out for analysis - every oil, every service. Money well spent he said.

It is indeed. All our critical plant was maintained using statistics from oil analysis trends. The cost of repairs wasn't so much of an issue, it was the cost of unplanned downtime on plant which ran 24/7 that was the killer. If a key piece of plant suddenly showed an upward trend in wear debris, we could plan accordingly rather than it shit itself in the middle of a production run with a shipping deadline.:laugh:

[caspernz]

Interesting enough video. Kinda like Ryan's no nonsense type of approach.

Personally I've never worried about sampling oil on my bikes, simply dump oil and replace filter each time, good quality oil and stick to sensible change intervals.

Different game when talking big machines, then oil sampling becomes a good value for money proposition. Like Blackbird mentioned, unplanned downtime is a killer on the revenue front, but then so is dumping oil when it has useful life left.

[Jeeper]

I believe Ryan was just using factory fill to test as a proxy for quality of manufacturing for new engines. What's interesting to me to see would have been which bike had a quality oil filter and it's content.

Oil analysis for maintenance and preventative monitoring is fairly common in many industries (ships, railways, earthmoving). Unplanned breakdown costs money (repair and lost production).

[SaferRides]

I hesitate to mention this, but if you want to take a deep dive into a wacky world of oil analysis and TLA's, try this: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/

[SaferRides]

PS. There's an extensive article on base oils on the home page. [emoji1]

[Navy Boy]

Here's another worthwhile read which I found when looking for a new screen for my V85tt:

https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oil.html

I watched Fortnine's video too. Interesting stuff it must be said.

MC Garage's Ari Henning did a good video about engine break-in fairly recently too. Similarly surprising results.

[george formby]

In fairness to the Chinese motor, I have a GG Randonee trials bike with an air cooled, single cylinder Chong Chen motor, or some such.

Basically a TT125 knock off.

The motor has never missed a beat and despite wringing it's neck for the last few years the oil is always clean when I change it.

No filter, either. It may have a screen somewhere.

[sugilite]

I watched this video just days after purchasing my first ever Italian bike and V-Twin - an Aprillia :crazy:

[F5 Dave]

So I was thinking about this on the way home. Let's unpack it.

First service oil change. We're measuring the running in stage.

Ball bearings dont run in, the are all perfectly rounded to start with. Plain bearings are held away from each other with a film of oil and never actually touch. Gears are all hardened. So, then there's the clutch. By definition it is wearing several surfaces together. Also the rings bedding into the bore.

In the old days of iron liners that was a real thing. With plated liners that still happens, but only a tickle and of course rings are different and can be quite soft against a super hard bore but once run in ride on a film of oil.

So, what if the Chinese bike in the test had an iron liner? Would be a lot more dirty in initial stages. And clutch material could be quite different. That's what we are left measuring. Unless we are to believe they are assembling engines next to the grinding shop, I think that proclaiming one engine is better than the other because of the running in phase oil check.
Well that's drawing a long bow, and I call bullshit on it.

[release_the_bees]

I know a guy who does fluid analysis on the wind turbines. There's an amazing amount of science in the preventative monitoring that goes into keeping those things running. It was a very interesting conversation.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[sugilite]

I know a guy who does fluid analysis on the wind turbines. There's an amazing amount of science in the preventative monitoring that goes into keeping those things running. It was a very interesting conversation.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

I heard that the gusty nature of New Zealand is making so many turbines shit their gear boxes that the manufacturers have reduced the warranty time on them. Not sure how true it is, but I often see broken down ones on the palmy wind farms.

[george formby]

So I was thinking about this on the way home. Let's unpack it.

First service oil change. We're measuring the running in stage.

Ball bearings dont run in, the are all perfectly rounded to start with. Plain bearings are held away from each other with a film of oil and never actually touch. Gears are all hardened. So, then there's the clutch. By definition it is wearing several surfaces together. Also the rings bedding into the bore.

In the old days of iron liners that was a real thing. With plated liners that still happens, but only a tickle and of course rings are different and can be quite soft against a super hard bore but once run in ride on a film of oil.

So, what if the Chinese bike in the test had an iron liner? Would be a lot more dirty in initial stages. And clutch material could be quite different. That's what we are left measuring. Unless we are to believe they are assembling engines next to the grinding shop, I think that proclaiming one engine is better than the other because of the running in phase oil check.
Well that's drawing a long bow, and I call bullshit on it.

Dunno if I would go so far as to call it bullshit but you are quite right. Lots of variables not discussed.

I have not seen gripes about a motor that shits itself from any manufacturer for a very long time. Kinda, sort of.

The majority of bikes in Africa, Asia, India, Middle East and all points in between are Chinese commuters. They get hammered, probably rarely serviced. If they crapped out constantly I doubt they would be so popular. Cheaper, obviously, but still transport which needs to be relied on.

[F5 Dave]

Well its kinda like determining the attractiveness of 7 random females by measuring the length of their hair. I mean I do like long hair on wimmin, but. . .

[george formby]

Well its kinda like determining the attractiveness of 7 random females by measuring the length of their hair. I mean I do like long hair on wimmin, but. . .

I like hair on wimmin, full stop.:innocent:

[F5 Dave]

No other criteria? Easy man to please.

[george formby]

No other criteria?

Erm, happy with 2 strokes?:scratch:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I like hair on wimmin, full stop.:innocent:

Bring back the wide bush!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Erm, happy with 2 strokes?:scratch:

Well she better be!!

[F5 Dave]

RingDingDing.

Now we're talking :woohoo:

[R650R]

I heard that the gusty nature of New Zealand is making so many turbines shit their gear boxes that the manufacturers have reduced the warranty time on them. Not sure how true it is, but I often see broken down ones on the palmy wind farms.

Prob same worldwide on the quiet lest the green dream be shattered. There’s numerous videos of wind farms not meeting their life expectancy...

Was a good article somewhere awhile ago explaining the massive shear forces involved. If you make measure the moment of torque from the massive leverage of them longer blades then realise your wanting to transmit that’s force at 90 deg through a gearbox.... basically currently technology can’t produce an oil synthetic or otherwise that is able to fully handle that load.
Each gearbox holds from 60 to 400L of oil depending on size...

Anyone know how much heat you bike oil can take before it affects its quality? Hate being in traffic and seeing that temp gauge go up...

[F5 Dave]

Do you have an oil temperature gauge?

[Jeeper]

Do you have an oil temperature gauge?On my Jeep I do. And a transmission temperature gauge. It's fascinating to see how the coolant temperature (as shown on the dashboard for almost everything) behaves very differently to the other two temperature gauges. They are loosely aligned, but operate at different actual temperatures.

[R650R]

On my Jeep I do. And a transmission temperature gauge. It's fascinating to see how the coolant temperature (as shown on the dashboard for almost everything) behaves very differently to the other two temperature gauges. They are loosely aligned, but operate at different actual temperatures.

I’d hazard a guess the oil temp is more stable and lags water temp?

Cause watching how quick water temp goes up on lots of bikes I’m sure it’s mostly heat soak in radiator rather than actual engine being that much hotter?

[FJRider]

I’d hazard a guess the oil temp is more stable and lags water temp?

Cause watching how quick water temp goes up on lots of bikes I’m sure it’s mostly heat soak in radiator rather than actual engine being that much hotter?

Cooling on a water/liquid cooled motorcycle on a hot day ... through the inner city streets was always a worry. The fan can only do so much with the air temp over 20 deg C. It was never good for the rider either.

At Highway speeds it was seldom an issue.

[Puddles]

Rookie question here, if the engine shares the oil with the clutch friction plates and they wear, how does the friction material that’s worn off and floating about not damage the rest of the engine?

[FJRider]

Rookie question here, if the engine shares the oil with the clutch friction plates and they wear, how does the friction material that’s worn off and floating about not damage the rest of the engine?

Take out your oil filter and see the result.

[FJRider]

I’d hazard a guess the oil temp is more stable and lags water temp?



I lived in Singapore for a few years (With NZ Army) and rode a '76 CB750F1. I had an oil cooler fitted. It was a bit like a radiator for the oil.

I'm not sure if the benefit was in the air cooling the of the oil ... or just that there was more oil in the system.

[Jeeper]

Cooling on a water/liquid cooled motorcycle on a hot day ... through the inner city streets was always a worry. The fan can only do so much with the air temp over 20 deg C. It was never good for the rider either.

At Highway speeds it was seldom an issue.Some bikes do come with additional oil coolers on top of the coolant radiators (some have fins, others have a second oil cooler). But as you say, air movement around the bike is the key to keeping things within acceptable temperatures.

Thankfully for my Jeep, it has a coolant radiator, engine oil cooler and transmission fluid cooler - all separate from each other. This is to work around low speed off-road work where air flow is minimal.

[Jeeper]

I lived in Singapore for a few years (With NZ Army) and rode a '76 CB750F1. I had an oil cooler fitted. It was a bit like a radiator for the oil.

I'm not sure if the benefit was in the air cooling the of the oil ... or just that there was more oil in the system.I would probably say both.

[F5 Dave]

My point was I don't think you are breaking down the oil. Additionally super low stress typically city riding.

Also riding in Auckland should only be done at 3 to 4am in the morning of a Tuesday.

[SaferRides]

Synthetics will easily take 150°. But coolant won't.