"LAMS" bike with a sneaky slip on

[moc]

Hey all,

I am on my motorcycle learners, and thus have to have a bike that falls within the LAMS restrictions. The bike I've had for a couple years now has been great, but I have realised that it has an aftermarket slip on exhaust. This was never an issue for me as I brought it second hand from a dealer which advertised it as a completely learner approved bike, and sold it to me knowing full well that I was/am on my learners (I even asked them to chuck an L plate on for my test ride).

As I am returning to NZ within the month I will obviously want to ride it, I'm not overly concerned with any police issues as any degree of common sense will say that a slip on exhaust will have a rather negligible effect on a 33hp/24kw bike that's 20 years old being ridden by a 90+kg rider. However I've realised that an insurance company will probably see it as a wonderful excuse to not pay out in an accident.

While I would happily just put on a stock exhaust, this wasn't included in the sale and due to the apparent rarity of my bike (Suzuki Goose 350) it seems like getting a stock exhaust will either be impossible, extortionate, or just incredibly difficult. Unless the stars have aligned and someone reading this has one lying around as decoration or something.

Had I realised this issue back when I purchased it 2 years ago I feel I could have gone back to the dealer and sorted it out rather easily (even if they weren't too stoked about it) but given the time that's passed that might not be a feasible option anymore.

Any insight on how I could proceed here? I would hate to have to sell it to buy a new set of wheels, its a bloody fun bike, and honestly getting another bike isn't exactly a good financial decision for me at the moment (not like thats ever stopped me I suppose).
Also yes, I really should have figured this out earlier, I am well aware of that.



"My grandad got pretty badly burnt the other day..."
"Oh no, is he alright?"
"Lets just say they don't f**k around at a crematorium"

[F5 Dave]

Probably lots of bikes in this category.

You could email your insurance company and ask for a written approval.

[OddDuck]

Straight off the NZTA website about LAMs bikes:

250cc to 660cc learner-approved motorcycles

The modifications below are intended to allow the user to customise/personalise their motorcycle without increasing the power to weight ratio. Some modifications will have a minor effect on power and others a minor effect on weight. However, these are not considered to be significant.
Allowed modifications

Slip on muffler/exhaust
Fairings/plastics
Wheels and tyres
Lights
Any other minor modification that would not affect power to weight ratio. e.g. handlebars or seats.

Note: Low Volume Vehicle (LVV) certification may be required for some modifications.

Note 2: It is likely a condition of your insurance policy to advise your insurer of any modifications that have been made to your motorcycle.

So you're probably all right, as F5 Dave says, contact your insurers, make certain that they know and it's stated on the policy, and you should be fine.

[moc]

Straight off the NZTA website about LAMs bikes:

250cc to 660cc learner-approved motorcycles

The modifications below are intended to allow the user to customise/personalise their motorcycle without increasing the power to weight ratio. Some modifications will have a minor effect on power and others a minor effect on weight. However, these are not considered to be significant.
Allowed modifications

Slip on muffler/exhaust
Fairings/plastics
Wheels and tyres
Lights
Any other minor modification that would not affect power to weight ratio. e.g. handlebars or seats.

Note: Low Volume Vehicle (LVV) certification may be required for some modifications.

Note 2: It is likely a condition of your insurance policy to advise your insurer of any modifications that have been made to your motorcycle.

So you're probably all right, as F5 Dave says, contact your insurers, make certain that they know and it's stated on the policy, and you should be fine.

Oh wow, has that always been on the NZTA site? I feel like I should have spotted that given how much I checked it while looking for bikes. I should have just double checked that myself.
Thanks for the response, feeling a whole lot more excited to get back on two wheels now. Might check out those Ride Forever courses, $20 for 8 hours seems way cheaper than I remember too.

[Hoonicorn]

When I contacted my insurance company about modifications, all they wanted to know was the increased value of the bike.
A lot of exhausts are labelled as "not for street use. race/track only." and I've never heard of bikes with those fitted probably not getting their claims paid out.

[nzspokes]

Or you could start moving through to get your full license.

[TheDemonLord]

Straight off the NZTA website about LAMs bikes:

250cc to 660cc learner-approved motorcycles

The modifications below are intended to allow the user to customise/personalise their motorcycle without increasing the power to weight ratio. Some modifications will have a minor effect on power and others a minor effect on weight. However, these are not considered to be significant.
Allowed modifications

Slip on muffler/exhaust
Fairings/plastics
Wheels and tyres
Lights
Any other minor modification that would not affect power to weight ratio. e.g. handlebars or seats.

Note: Low Volume Vehicle (LVV) certification may be required for some modifications.

Note 2: It is likely a condition of your insurance policy to advise your insurer of any modifications that have been made to your motorcycle.

So you're probably all right, as F5 Dave says, contact your insurers, make certain that they know and it's stated on the policy, and you should be fine.

Out of curiosity - when did that change? Last I looked at LAMS rules it was "No changes allowed whatsoever"

The above actually looks *Get ready for the biggest shock of 2021*












Sensible.

[R650R]

Out of curiosity - when did that change? Last I looked at LAMS rules it was "No changes allowed whatsoever"

The above actually looks *Get ready for the biggest shock of 2021*












Sensible.

Seems maybe govt quietly reverts alters stuff that doesnÂ’t work.... was looking up phone legislation few months ago as thinking of using a cheap smartphone as standalone satnav...

Distinctly remember when the car hands free laws came in that use of a phone on bike was 100% specifically prohibited.
Now it seems allowed but with suitable grey areas to get you prosecuted or insurance issues...


Interesting on legislation govt nz there is nothing about LAMS apart from them delegating authority to whatÂ’s listed on NZTA website. ThereÂ’s got to be a legal conundrum there with regards to accurate recording of changes when and by who with what authority...

[rastuscat]

Legitimising things that people are doing already makes sense, especially if the potential harm is negligible.

Then some tosser will put a Busa motor into an MT03 frame, and call it a LAMS bike.

[slofox]

Legitimising things that people are doing already makes sense, especially if the potential harm is negligible.

The Amish have been doing just this for a very long time.

[TheDemonLord]

Then some tosser will put a Busa motor into an MT03 frame, and call it a LAMS bike.

As someone who has ridden a Busa and an MT03 - God that sounds amazing, where can I get one?

[FJRider]

Seems maybe govt quietly reverts alters stuff that doesnÂ’t work.... was looking up phone legislation few months ago as thinking of using a cheap smartphone as standalone satnav...

Distinctly remember when the car hands free laws came in that use of a phone on bike was 100% specifically prohibited.
Now it seems allowed but with suitable grey areas to get you prosecuted or insurance issues...


Interesting on legislation govt nz there is nothing about LAMS apart from them delegating authority to whatÂ’s listed on NZTA website. ThereÂ’s got to be a legal conundrum there with regards to accurate recording of changes when and by who with what authority...

The primary concern of NZTA regarding LAM's class motorcycles was modifications causing a change in the power/weight ratio. The wording as I recall ... was no modification allowed for the purpose of increasing the power/weight ratio. Also ... NO such requirement was added to 250cc and below motorcycles (other than those in that range already prohibited) as being under 251cc ... were automatically regarded as being in the LAM's class. Remember the LAM's class is officially between 251cc and 660cc motorcycles

As long as the motorcycle (on the LAM's list) was within the prescribed (and allowed) ratio ... it was still a LAM's class motorcycle. I know of a few that were stopped for this reason ... bikes tested (Cop was a prick) ... legislation discussed with a Lawyer present ... and being allowed.

Now ... surprise surprise ... it's in black and white and easily understandable legal description.

As an aside ... I recall reading in a motorcycle magazine (I cant recall which one) about some of the older LAM's class motorcycles being allowed non original parts (exhausts etc) simply as the original items were now unobtainable.

All in all ... common sense applies ...

[F5 Dave]

Then some tosser will put a Busa motor into an MT03 frame, and call it a LAMS bike.
The Amish have been doing just this for a very long time.

[rastuscat]

As long as the motorcycle (on the LAM's list) was within the prescribed (and allowed) ratio ... it was still a LAM's class motorcycle. I know of a few that were stopped for this reason ... bikes tested (Cop was a prick) ... legislation discussed with a Lawyer present ... and being allowed.

When I was a Popo (finished in 2015) I raised this, as it was clear that some people were taking the piss by moddifying the hell out of their bikes to make them lighter or more powerful.

Bobbers were the classic, where half the original components were replaced, the other half were modified. Sacrilege, most of them we bodge jobs.

I appreciate good modifications, there are some very clever engineers out there, but most were just crap quality cut and paste jobs.

Then it became apparent that retailers didn't care about the rules, selling after market exhausts to people on 6L and 6R which invalidated their bikes' LAMS approvals. Their motivation was related to profit margins.

I guess I was one of those pricks you mentioned, as I pissed a few retailers off by telling people that their bike was no longer LAMS approved with their expensive Akropovic exhaust. If you had a look on the Akarapovic site at that time it claimed both power increase and weight reduction as features of them slip-ons.

Good that it's all be clarified.

[FJRider]

I guess I was one of those pricks you mentioned, as I pissed a few retailers off by telling people that their bike was no longer LAMS approved with their expensive Akropovic exhaust. If you had a look on the Akarapovic site at that time it claimed both power increase and weight reduction as features of them slip-ons.

Good that it's all be clarified.

Probably not personally ... I never saw Police/MOT as anything other than guy's doing their job. Some were indeed pricks though. Often by actions with forethought and menace. Unveiled threats even of bureaucratic bullshit. Those were the days ... :calm:

However ... if the power to weight ratio is not over the required level ... should not the motorcycle be a legal LAM's class motorcycle ... regardless of the modifications .. ??

[FJRider]

When I contacted my insurance company about modifications, all they wanted to know was the increased value of the bike.
A lot of exhausts are labelled as "not for street use. race/track only." and I've never heard of bikes with those fitted probably not getting their claims paid out.

Increased value ... increased premiums. That's their business ... <_<

But the actual increase in Horsepower from those mufflers is about (at best) a claimed 2-3%. With a small bike developing 20 Hp ... the increase isn't that radical ... or barely noticeable. But the "Increase" in Hp is there ... and that is all that's mentioned and wanted.

[R650R]

The primary concern of NZTA regarding LAM's class motorcycles was modifications causing a change in the power/weight ratio. The wording as I recall ... was no modification allowed for the purpose of increasing the power/weight ratio. Also ... NO such requirement was added to 250cc and below motorcycles (other than those in that range already prohibited) as being under 251cc ... were automatically regarded as being in the LAM's class. Remember the LAM's class is officially between 251cc and 660cc motorcycles

As long as the motorcycle (on the LAM's list) was within the prescribed (and allowed) ratio ... it was still a LAM's class motorcycle. I know of a few that were stopped for this reason ... bikes tested (Cop was a prick) ... legislation discussed with a Lawyer present ... and being allowed.

Now ... surprise surprise ... it's in black and white and easily understandable legal description.

As an aside ... I recall reading in a motorcycle magazine (I cant recall which one) about some of the older LAM's class motorcycles being allowed non original parts (exhausts etc) simply as the original items were now unobtainable.

All in all ... common sense applies ...

I just find it interesting that legislative power has been deferred to a desk jockey outside of the proper realms of power.
Pretty much everything on legislation.govt.nz has been thru public consultation, debating chamber etc....
Opens a dangerous back door for some greenie lunatic to hasten demise of bikes and or petrol power when some nobody has ability to modify LTSA website although it has worked out in bikers favour in this case.

[FJRider]

I just find it interesting that legislative power has been deferred to a desk jockey outside of the proper realms of power.
Pretty much everything on legislation.govt.nz has been thru public consultation, debating chamber etc....
Opens a dangerous back door for some greenie lunatic to hasten demise of bikes and or petrol power when some nobody has ability to modify LTSA website although it has worked out in bikers favour in this case.

You mean some UNNAMED nobody .. ?? I'm guessing that those people with enough authority to change anything on the website ... is far from being a "Nobody". Probably not much more than a head of department though ... ;)

Occasionally ... even bureaucratic plebes have a spell of simple common sense.

[pritch]

Years ago BIKE magazine dyno tested some after market exhausts. The best gave only a modest power increase, from memory 1 to 3HP, and nobody can even feel that. Some actually gave less power than the standard exhaust. Most did reduce weight though.

A full system with the appropriate chip or similar, and a free flow air filter, might give slightly more HP and save considerable weight, but you'll be out thousands of dollars.
More than a 250 is worth.

[pritch]

However ... if the power to weight ratio is not over the required level ... should not the motorcycle be a legal LAM's class motorcycle ... regardless of the modifications .. ??

As long as it's under 660cc and meets the power to weight formula you can apply to have it added to the LAMS list. The list is a lot longer now than when it was a new thing, new models are being added all the time. The desk jockeys outside of the proper realms of power have been busy.:killingme