Judith Collins getting the arse.

[Laava]

Was going to start a poll but we might not have enough time!
Gone by tea time?

[TheDemonLord]

We can only hope.

The question is whether or not National will vote in some form of Neo Con, or someone who stands on the individualist principles of proper conservatism.

[Dadpole]

We can only hope.

The question is whether or not National will vote in some form of Neo Con, or someone who stands on the individualist principles of proper conservatism.

They would vote in Joe Stalin if it would mean an election victory.

My money is on Luxton as the the Golden Boy as anointed by John Key

[jim.cox]

Judith is one nasty piece of work - good riddance to her

[jasonu]

It's a good move for National. They were going no where with that old hag.

[pete376403]

She's gone.

[Laava]

Just goes to show that when you are throwing someone under the bus, you need to be very careful as to whether you are pushing them or pulling them.

[TheDemonLord]

They would vote in Joe Stalin if it would mean an election victory.

This may come as a shock...

But I 150% agree with you.

And that, is exactly what the problem is with National (and certain types of conservatives) - they vote in people who they think might be popular, rather than voting in people who hold to conservative principles.

I do, however, live in eternal hope that either by luck or skill, they'll vote someone in who at least has an inkling as to what proper conservative governance means.

I won't hold my breath, but gosh it would be nice.

[TheDemonLord]

She's gone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPIdRJlzERo

I dunno, feels appropriate.

[husaberg]

They would vote in Joe Stalin if it would mean an election victory.

My money is on Luxton as the the Golden Boy as anointed by John Key
That speaks volumes that the best person that national party has wasn't a member of the national party until months ago
Makes you wonder the depths of the party that cant even produce a leader from within its own ranks.

[Laava]

David Seymour is a better leader than anyone in the National Party.
Makes you wonder doesn't it?

[Dadpole]

David Seymour is a better leader than anyone in the National Party.
Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Very true - But, Rimmer for PM? I hope not............

[TheDemonLord]

David Seymour is a better leader than anyone in the National Party.
Makes you wonder doesn't it?

It's almost like he's standing on the british liberal principles that underpin conservatism...

[Scuba_Steve]

Very true - But, Rimmer for PM? I hope not............

If he was willing to glue an 'H' to his head I'd almost vote him for the lolz
Tho really he needs a slob to co-lead with him to be effective

[husaberg]

If he was willing to glue an 'H' to his head I'd almost vote him for the lolz
Tho really he needs a slob to co-lead with him to be effective
hes' a total smeghead.
https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/6/z/r/9/o/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1240x700 .192s0m.png/1452210411244.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0o4Og8zE2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al5bErqFrDQ

[F5 Dave]

So is there a link to the original premise of this thread?

Asking for a friend. :banana:

[Berries]

I'd tap it.

[Laava]

I'd tap it.
F5 Dave or Judith?

[F5 Dave]

It's a sandwich kinda thing.:eek5:

[HenryDorsetCase]

hes' a total smeghead.


enquiring minds NEED to know why old mate David Seymour has two desk (landline) phones? He is also "old man" texting as well (as my young workmates call it) - they do it with two thumbs.

[R650R]

enquiring minds NEED to know why old mate David Seymour has two desk (landline) phones? He is also "old man" texting as well (as my young workmates call it) - they do it with two thumbs.

Prob one is traditional landline (slightly more secure) and the other is VIOP or intranet connected???

[JimO]

F5 Dave or Judith?
both at the same time probably

[Dadpole]

So Luxton got the nod. I fondly remember his first appearance in politics - when he was thrown at Steven Joyce. :cool:

[F5 Dave]

Post of the month. Can't give more rep. :laugh:

[husaberg]

the story going about parliament is half the National MP's thought they were voting for Todd Muller again

350202

[Swoop]

Thank fuck.
Collins and Bridges relegated to somewhere quiet and deserted.

[F5 Dave]

So, next Prime minister, or current Caretaker? I'd suggest the latter.

Like real life voting public are appearance driven.

[pete376403]

Heard Luxon on RNZ this morning, with Kathryn Ryan trying to get s straight answer to a straight question . the man is as slippery as an eel, blames everything on 4 years of labour while completely overlooking any of the effects of the previous 9 years of National. As a friend commented, "Just another well off, old bald headed religious white male wingnut.... who is against abortions... Yes this is just wonderful... Now NZ has it own SCOMO". Owns 9 houses, too, so unlikely to do anything to make first home ownership any easier

[TheDemonLord]

Heard Luxon on RNZ this morning, with Kathryn Ryan trying to get s straight answer to a straight question . the man is as slippery as an eel, blames everything on 4 years of labour while completely overlooking any of the effects of the previous 9 years of National. As a friend commented, "Just another well off, old bald headed religious white male wingnut.... who is against abortions... Yes this is just wonderful... Now NZ has it own SCOMO". Owns 9 houses, too, so unlikely to do anything to make first home ownership any easier

I'm waiting to see what sort of stances he takes on the current hot topic issues, such as Vaccine Passports.

Whether or not he's another Labour-Lite National Politician or if he actually understands the principles that underpin conservatism.

I won't hold my breath as the last few National Leaders have been atrocious in this regard.

But hey, Judith and Bridges is gone, so all-in-all, not a bad trade (even if he does turn out to be a useless muppet).

[jim.cox]

even if he does turn out to be a useless muppet

He's a politiscum - they are ALL useless, just some more so than others.

[merv]

Heard Luxon on RNZ this morning, with Kathryn Ryan trying to get s straight answer to a straight question . the man is as slippery as an eel, blames everything on 4 years of labour while completely overlooking any of the effects of the previous 9 years of National. As a friend commented, "Just another well off, old bald headed religious white male wingnut.... who is against abortions... Yes this is just wonderful... Now NZ has it own SCOMO". Owns 9 houses, too, so unlikely to do anything to make first home ownership any easier

Don't worry Pete, at least he adds a lot of balance to the serious wingnuts hanging out over on the other side in the Green Party. Perhaps with Labour losing popularity as covid goes on, 2023 might be the year of a Labour- National coaliton so that the centrist parties unite and just get the numbers to leave all the looneys hanging on the outside.

[F5 Dave]

That would be hilarious

[neels]

It would seem they had to go with more of a proper conservative, to stop bleeding the right vote to ACT.

From hearing what airnz people have to say, he's all about making money for the rich and doesn't give a fuck about the workers, so great National leader potential. They only bit we haven't heard yet is what his connection is to sell even more of the country to China.

The next election is going to be interesting, I think they've put Luxon up too early and there's a real possibility that he'll bollocks himself before it comes around, but there will be a lot of people looking at where their vote should go as the covid debacle goes on.

[F5 Dave]

And on the 7th month of the 7th year he did rise again to take his place at the table of the humans. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth as the beast stalked his prey so delicious to his touch.


RISE - Winston - RISE :shit:


:facepalm:

[R650R]

Heard Luxon on RNZ this morning, with Kathryn Ryan trying to get s straight answer to a straight question . the man is as slippery as an eel, blames everything on 4 years of labour while completely overlooking any of the effects of the previous 9 years of National. As a friend commented, "Just another well off, old bald headed religious white male wingnut.... who is against abortions... Yes this is just wonderful... Now NZ has it own SCOMO". Owns 9 houses, too, so unlikely to do anything to make first home ownership any easier

Only nine? I know working class people with ordinary jobs that own more. They were smart enough to make the RIGHT decisions at right time with their money. I should own nine houses by now too but I never made right decisions at right time.
Part of that is or flawed education system that spends lot of time talking about differences between rich and poor but not the reasons why.
If he never gives a straight answer he’ll probably be popular with Jacindas voter base then 😂

[pete376403]

Only nine? I know working class people with ordinary jobs that own more. They were smart enough to make the RIGHT decisions at right time with their money. I should own nine houses by now too but I never made right decisions at right time.
Part of that is or flawed education system that spends lot of time talking about differences between rich and poor but not the reasons why.
If he never gives a straight answer he’ll probably be popular with Jacindas voter base then 😂

I was wrong about the houses, apparently only 7, so, basically on the bones of his arse. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/new-national-leader-chris-luxon-owns-seven-properties-two-funded-by-taxpayers/RDXEOZL2O6ETPNWPZD347I4AEA/

[R650R]

I was wrong about the houses, apparently only 7, so, basically on the bones of his arse. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/new-national-leader-chris-luxon-owns-seven-properties-two-funded-by-taxpayers/RDXEOZL2O6ETPNWPZD347I4AEA/

For someone who was prob on at least 500k a year you might be right.

Don’t you want someone whose been successful in life running the country?

You’ll never be happy in life worrying about what other people have. Envy is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason and prob why a certain portion of our population never progresses. Sitting at home being angry about what others have instead of getting out there and asking how can I do that won’t get results.

[Laava]

Envy is one of the seven deadly sins
WTF? You have been brainwashed. Seven deadly sins my arse, what an incredibly stupid outlook on life!
An internet forum for motorcyclists is NOT the place to be posting your redneck christian beliefs.

[TheDemonLord]

WTF? You have been brainwashed. Seven deadly sins my arse, what an incredibly stupid outlook on life!
An internet forum for motorcyclists is NOT the place to be posting your redneck christian beliefs.

You do realise that one can reference the 7 deadly sins, from a completely atheistic standpoint seeing as they are part of the English Language, right?

I mean, I've lost count how many times Greed has been raised as a vice/something negative on this forum and you've never batted an Eyelid.

Now sure, if R650 was busy telling everyone to repent, accept the Lawd your Gawd as your Saviour, then you might have a point - but this is a complete overeaction.

[HenryDorsetCase]

With IKEA coming to New Zealand, at last Judith Collins will get the chance to assemble a cabinet!



Not mine - stolen from the internets.

[husaberg]

For someone who was prob on at least 500k a year you might be right.
.
Luxon took home $4.2 million in his final year he was replaced by someone who used to earn 4 x the salary per year running a far bigger company
So does that mean Foran who be four times as good as luxton
Foran was the president and chief executive of Walmart US.
I dont begrudge either what they earn, but luxton has no record at running a country
His main claim to fame at Air NZ was cutting routes to make more profit.


Envy is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason and prob why a certain portion of our population never progresses. .
Nice use of religious ravings

[Laava]

With IKEA coming to New Zealand, at last Judith Collins will get the chance to assemble a cabinet!



Not mine - stolen from the internets.
Funny! But I think even that would be too big a challenge for her...

[husaberg]

All you ever need to know about Pipecrusher collins

ever wonder why she was prevented from using the honorable title by key (http://After the 2014 election, John Key left Collins off the "Roll of the Honourables" due to the ongoing inquiry into her role with Adam Feeley. This made her ineligible to use the title 'The Honourable)

https://eitr545824759.wordpress.com/2020/08/08/judith-collins-david-wong-tung-and-the-oravida-kauri-ltd-ruakaka-connection-and-that-broken-marsden-point-fuel-line-breakage-that-caused-nz-48m-in-economic-damage-no-one-has-subsequently-been-charged/

Judith Collins/David Wong-Tung and the Oravida Kauri Ruakaka Limited connection and that broken Marsden Point fuel line breakage that caused NZ $48m in economic damage no one has subsequently been charged.

4.15 Kauri Ruakaka Ltd (KRL),[4] which is a local sawmill, owned the digger. The manager of KRL confirmed to our investigator that he arranged and paid for its transport on each of these occasions.[5] KRL sometimes bought kauri logs from the contractor.[6] KRL did not charge for the use of the digger or pay the contractor for his time.

4.16 The person from the transport company who delivered the digger to the Ruakākā property in August 2014 told us that he understood it would be used to look for swamp kauri. That is what was recorded on the relevant invoice.

4.17 Our investigator talked with two other property owners in a nearby area who had allowed the same contractor to dig on their land under similar arrangements. They had been approached in the same way and all the arrangements were based on “a handshake” rather than any written contract.

The sequence of work on the property
4.18 A neighbour told us that he saw someone using the digger right over the pipeline area around these dates, but he could not see the person driving it. He stopped his car and waved at the driver to indicate that he should stop but he did not know whether the driver saw him. He stopped at the top of the driveway to try to call the 0800 number on the sign there that warned about the RAP, to let them know what was happening, but the call did not connect. He did not follow up and try again later.

4.19 Our investigator spoke to the person who it seemed was likely to have been operating the digger. When NRC had spoken to this person during their investigation in 2017, he had said that he could not remember being there or working on the property. However, he confirmed to our investigator that he had been using the digger to look for logs on the property in August 2014 and that he had operated the digger in the area over the pipeline. He stated that he had only smoothed out the land in that area and he had not struck the pipe. He had not returned to the property after that.

4.20 The landowner told us that when he went to the property after the digger had gone, he was very angry at the way the land had been left. He said here were holes everywhere, which meant that it was not safe for his animals, and kauri stumps and logs had been left sitting there. He confirmed that there was a big hole near the pipeline, perhaps about 1 to 1.5 metres deep and over a large area. The pipe itself was not visible when he saw the hole. He said that it did not occur to him that he should tell anyone about the digging.

Guess what krl was previously called oravida Kauri
350213
https://www.greystar.co.nz/news/kauri-log-digger-damaged-fuel-pipeline/



https://opencorporates.com/companies/nz/3518811


https://www.nowtolove.co.nz/celebrity/celeb-news/judith-collins-untold-love-story-3142

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/103324546/pipeline-leak-cost-refining-nz-143m


August 24-28, 2014 – Oravida Kauri Contractor damages fuel line while digging for Kauri to export using loopholes.
During this timeline Judith Collins was the presiding Energy Minister overseeing the emergency and repairs to the fuel line
https://eitr545824759.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/screenshot-2020-08-09-at-8.20.03-am.png?w=2000&h=
https://eitr545824759.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/screenshot-2020-08-09-at-8.19.37-am.png?w=2000&h=
Marsden Point fuel line breakage that caused NZ $48m in economic damage

[FJRider]

... An internet forum for motorcyclists is NOT the place to be posting your redneck christian beliefs.

You're posting YOUR beliefs ... ;)

[R650R]

WTF? You have been brainwashed. Seven deadly sins my arse, what an incredibly stupid outlook on life!
An internet forum for motorcyclists is NOT the place to be posting your redneck christian beliefs.

I’m no redneck and not Christian. I’m agnostic which means Im not an atheist but am open minded to idea that perhaps could there is more to this world we don’t understand yet.

Motorcyclists.... a mostly respectful group accepting of all others and their beliefs and welcoming certainly to plenty of loner weirdos as well. Long as you ride a bike or even have a broken one in shed to stare at your alright with us all. And there’s even plenty of Christian and god type social MC clubs out there too.

My occasional references to religion serve only to remind people what our laws and moral/social values of our society are based on.

[Laava]

Bullshit. In what world are people expected to accept that an emotion such as envy is a sin? Completely wrong. And anyone trying to tell me that is so gets the same message. Our laws and moral values are based on common sense more than anything else. No religions can claim a moral high ground.

[F5 Dave]

Not with all the kiddie fiddling and blatent covering it up done by the rest of them.

[FJRider]

WTF? You have been brainwashed. Seven deadly sins my arse, what an incredibly stupid outlook on life!
An internet forum for motorcyclists is NOT the place to be posting your redneck christian beliefs.

If you actually believe R650R actually has the religious fervor you claim he has ... your redneck views on simple morality should also be questioned. Wait until you get some of YOUR stuff stolen. Your views on morality might change.

Greed and envy are the base cause of theft ... which is rife in this country. And even Police admit ... most reported thefts of lower value items are not actively followed up.

[FJRider]

... No religions can claim a moral high ground.

You are ...

[pritch]

Don’t you want someone whose been successful in life running the country?



Many people who have acheived success in business, and therefore in life, are sociopaths. So no, I don't want a sociopath running the country thanks.

[TheDemonLord]

Bullshit. In what world are people expected to accept that an emotion such as envy is a sin?

Have you ever known Envy to lead to something that is Good? Take the religious context of the word Sin out for the moment - the reason we view these things as bad is because they lead to bad actions.

Take any of the 7 Deadly Sins - if you let them consume you, it ends badly.


Our laws and moral values are based on common sense more than anything else.

Not true. Our Legal system is unique in it's evolution from the 10 Commandments, via Christianity and then more specifically English Protestants (breaking from the Catholic Church) which re-centred the Individual.

There's a reason why the European Continent (that remained Catholic) tends to favor top-down administration, whereas England (and all it's associated cultures and legal systems) tend to prefer bottom-up Administration.

But if you want a more specific Example - Magna Carta (arguably the document from which all Modern English Common Law flows):


FIRST, THAT WE HAVE GRANTED TO GOD, and by this present charter have confirmed for us and our heirs in perpetuity, that the English Church shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired. That we wish this so to be observed, appears from the fact that of our own free will, before the outbreak of the present dispute between us and our barons, we granted and confirmed by charter the freedom of the Church's elections - a right reckoned to be of the greatest necessity and importance to it - and caused this to be confirmed by Pope Innocent III. This freedom we shall observe ourselves, and desire to be observed in good faith by our heirs in perpetuity.

TO ALL FREE MEN OF OUR KINGDOM we have also granted, for us and our heirs for ever, all the liberties written out below, to have and to keep for them and their heirs, of us and our heirs:

Literally the first article invokes God and the freedom of Religion.


No religions can claim a moral high ground.

Nah, I think the ones that don't condone stoning people to death or cutting off bits from Children can claim a moral high ground over those that do.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't want a sociopath running the country thanks.

What makes you think you don't already have one?

[pritch]

Foran was the president and chief executive of Walmart US.


What a recommendation. The staff at Walmart are so poorly paid that many of them qualify for government welfare assistance. The US taxpayer has long subsidised Walmart's operations and we don't need that philosophy in this country.

[pete376403]

.

There's a reason why the European Continent (that remained Catholic) tends to favor top-down administration, whereas England (and all it's associated cultures and legal systems) tend to prefer bottom-up Administration..

catholic priests are well known for bottom-up administrations. What is Dilworths preferred credo?

[TheDemonLord]

catholic priests are well known for bottom-up administrations.

Well....

Only for Altar Boys

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[pritch]

catholic priests are well known for bottom-up administrations. What is Dilworths preferred credo?

Not sure religious denomination is a criteria for Dilworth. The only student I know who attended was nominally Presbyterian but he was there after the currently newsworthy happenings.

[tri boy]

Well....

Only for Altar Boys

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I was one of the few altar boys that never got altered.:buggerd:
The sex talks were funny as fuck though. Swear the priests jacked off, as you recounted fish fingers with Ronda rotten box at the movies.:wari:

[husaberg]

What a recommendation. The staff at Walmart are so poorly paid that many of them qualify for government welfare assistance. The US taxpayer has long subsidised Walmart's operations and we don't need that philosophy in this country.

remember Assngtir and Yokel (who were never on the forum at the same times as R650R or each other )claimed they were secret tunnels with Walmart "as part of a military coup plot"

They used to spout religious ravings and conspiracy theories whilst trolling to compensate for having tiny peckers.

[F5 Dave]

Dont worry guys. It's not the size of the nail. It's the size of the hammer you whack it in with eh? :nya:

[pritch]

What makes you think you don't already have one?

You'll have to remind me about her dazzlingly successful business career. I seem to have missed that.

[JimO]

You'll have to remind me about her dazzlingly successful business career. I seem to have missed that.

fish n chip magnate

[TheDemonLord]

You'll have to remind me about her dazzlingly successful business career. I seem to have missed that.

We all seem to have missed that.

I'm referring to her continued discriminatory, immoral and illiberal policies.

At least a corporate sociopath might know how to run a large entity...

Also with the traffic light system, I now have a much deeper understanding of how the Holocaust happened.

The amount of people who have said "I'm just following the rules" is depressing and disgusting.

[FJRider]

... I'm referring to her continued docastiscriminatory, immoral and illiberal policies.

People are still free to make choices that may affect or improve their lifestyle. If the vaccine was as bad as some claim ... the hospitals would have more getting treated for the bad reaction to the vaccine. How many are you aware of that are in that situation in hospital .. ??


At least a corporate sociopath might know how to run a large entity...

"She" may well be knowing how ... and the NZ Government is quite a large "entity" in most regards ... Billions of $$$$ at stake. Be sure to vote in the next election if you want change ...


Also with the traffic light system, I now have a much deeper understanding of how the Holocaust happened.

As I recall from my basic secondary education ... the Holocaust was Race based.

Perhaps ... you don't understand at all.


The traffic light system is all about people making the right choices for everybody's benefit. Not JUST your own.


The amount of people who have said "I'm just following the rules" is depressing and disgusting.

Those "Just following the rules" ... are the people that are allowed to go places and do stuff.

[F5 Dave]

Perhaps TDL would be happy if people just decided society didn't need rules.

People could just smack nerds in the head for giggles. Or rape them.

TDL could be sore at both ends.


But Oh. The Freedom.

[TheDemonLord]

People are still free to make choices that may affect or improve their lifestyle.

"You're welcome not to pay the Protection Money, but Bricks may affect your Window"


If the vaccine was as bad as some claim ... the hospitals would have more getting treated for the bad reaction to the vaccine. How many are you aware of that are in that situation in hospital .. ??

I've never said anything negative about the Vaccine. In fact, I've said the science behind the Vaccine seems sound and that the speed at which it was developed is a modern Marvel. There are some negative reactions, but they seem to be on-par with most other vaccines.

My issue is entirely with the authoritarian enforcement and requirements to get the Vaccine.



"She" may well be knowing how ... and the NZ Government is quite a large "entity" in most regards ... Billions of $$$$ at stake. Be sure to vote in the next election if you want change ...

Well I voted Act last time and will do so again.


As I recall from my basic secondary education ... the Holocaust was Race based.

That depends on whether you consider being Jewish to be a Religious position or a Racial position. I'll agree that there were definitely racial aspects to the Holocaust, but considering genetic testing wasn't a thing...

Not to mention there were other people who were killed and not on the basis of Race...


The traffic light system is all about people making the right choices for everybody's benefit. Not JUST your own.

"The Persecution of the Jew is all about the benefit of the entire German People"


Those "Just following the rules" ... are the people that are allowed to go places and do stuff.

Yes, the good little Aryans.

"First they came for the Trade Unionists, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Trade Unionists
Then they came for the Gypsies, I didn't out because I wasn't a Gypsy
Then they came for the Jews, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew
When they came for me, there was no left to speak out"

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps TDL would be happy if people just decided society didn't need rules.

People could just smack nerds in the head for giggles. Or rape them.

TDL could be sore at both ends.


But Oh. The Freedom.

Natural Rights.

That's all I'm asking for, things like the right to Bodily Autonomy. That's the thing that says that smacking of heads and Rape is wrong. It's also the thing that says using the compulsion of Government to make someone get a Vaccine they don't want to get is ALSO wrong.

Which actually makes your ridicule rather Ironic.

See, I'm very big on the whole Natural Rights thing, I'm also very big on the whole 'Not Discriminating' thing.

[FJRider]

Perhaps TDL would be happy if people just decided society didn't need rules.

People could just smack nerds in the head for giggles. Or rape them.

TDL could be sore at both ends.


But Oh. The Freedom.

People (apparently) have rights. One of those (apparently) is to do and say what they like (if [of course] it suits them}.

The same goes for "Rules" ... if the rules suit at the time .... all good. If they don't suit ... it is (of course) the fault of the tyrannical Government.

Even in the old "Wild West (Coast ??) there were rules in society. You could even shoot bad people ... and they paid you cash money to do it.

Freedoms are overrated. Until you haven't got any. And then ... your lack of freedoms is (always) somebody else's fault.

Has society (as we know it) really advanced any .. ??

[FJRider]

Natural Rights.

In the real world we call it Human rights. It's what the Laws of the (any) country are based on. To ensure the safety of weaker members of that society that find it difficult to protect themselves.


That's all I'm asking for, things like the right to Bodily Autonomy. That's the thing that says that smacking of heads and Rape is wrong. It's also the thing that says using the compulsion of Government to make someone get a Vaccine they don't want to get is ALSO wrong.

It is not illegal to not get vaccinated. THAT is LAW. Those that choose not to get vaccinated may loose some freedom to access some activities, and restrictions on where they can go. NOBODY will be taken against their will and be vaccinated. Most of the weaker members of society will voluntarily present themselves for vaccination. They know it's in their own best interest.


Which actually makes your ridicule rather Ironic.

It may be wise to expect more.


See, I'm very big on the whole Natural Rights thing, I'm also very big on the whole 'Not Discriminating' thing.

Nobody cares if you're short, fat, and/or stupid ... (not to mention argumentative) ... they'll vaccinate you anyway. Discrimination is not permitted for those doing the vaccination's ... by law.

[R650R]

Many people who have acheived success in business, and therefore in life, are sociopaths. So no, I don't want a sociopath running the country thanks.

I hear you but he hardly fits that description.... actually I’d just like someone who talks straight and Seymour is the only one doing that

[FJRider]

"You're welcome not to pay the Protection Money, but Bricks may affect your Window"

I never "PAID" anything for my vaccination protection. It was free. Were you not aware of that .. ??


I've never said anything negative about the Vaccine. In fact, I've said the science behind the Vaccine seems sound and that the speed at which it was developed is a modern Marvel. There are some negative reactions, but they seem to be on-par with most other vaccines.

My issue is entirely with the authoritarian enforcement and requirements to get the Vaccine.

With the "authoritarian enforcement" came a lower rate of infections and deaths ... than most other countries of similar size (or per head of population) to NZ ... and those countries with more freedoms and fewer restrictions than we have.



Well I voted Act last time and will do so again.

If 100 people were chosen at random ... I doubt 5 of them could name the leader of the Act Party.


That depends on whether you consider being Jewish to be a Religious position or a Racial position. I'll agree that there were definitely racial aspects to the Holocaust, but considering genetic testing wasn't a thing...

They were referred to as being "Of the Jewish Race". You may not be actually aware that ALL citizens had to declare their ethnicity in writing to the authorities. Jews were held in the same regard as Colored persons.


Not to mention there were other people who were killed and not on the basis of Race...

It may come as a surprise to you ... but not all citizens of Germany agreed with Hitlers plans and ambitions. Regardless of their wealth or position. Their money and property was seized, and those people were either shot, or placed in labour camps. (usually the former)


"The Persecution of the Jew is all about the benefit of the entire German People"

To help "purify" the German race ... the murder of other groups for their perceived racial (or biological) inferiority ... also occurred. And possibly one of the reasons he invaded Russia. (That didn't end well for him)


Yes, the good little Aryans.

See above ...


"First they came for the Trade Unionists, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Trade Unionists
Then they came for the Gypsies, I didn't out because I wasn't a Gypsy
Then they came for the Jews, I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew
When they came for me, there was no left to speak out"

Personally ... I do not think it is the Government that will cause your demise ... ;) You'll cause it yourself ... :lol:

[HenryDorsetCase]

LOL I love these antivax nutjobs. My particular favourite is the "but muh freedumbs". No one is forcing these knobends to do anything. Dont want a vaccine? Cool, no one is loading you into a coal train, taking you to, I dunno, Botany Downs and working you to death. If you don't wanna vaccine thats your choice. But in the grown up world choices have consequences. Those consequences include not being able to go places or join the grownups as they socialise and get on with life. At it's essence it is that simple.

The other thing that I won't get into is their "arguments" (which arent arguments at all) about the basis for and the efficacy of the vaccine. But all these fucking retards should be doing is looking around and asking themselves a question - which is "OK, so if it was so bad, and 90% of the population (roughly) have had it, has the population reduced by 90% in the last year? No? Huh, OK, maybe it isnt so bad after all.

Oh, and the visual disconnect of these angry fuckwits carrying (of all things) fucking Trump flags and United Tribes flags and "yer a communist AND hitler" (who was not a communist) and being egged on by the criminal genius with the lovely eyebrows the EFTpostle Brain Tamaki (Praywave TM). I just hope none of those cunts breed. Sadly it seems too late.

When I rule you (and I will) there will be licences for procreation, and none of these people will be granted them.

[TheDemonLord]

In the real world we call it Human rights. It's what the Laws of the (any) country are based on. To ensure the safety of weaker members of that society that find it difficult to protect themselves.

No.

See, The concept of Natural rights is the Genesis for what we today call Human Rights - however the current declaration of Human Rights has a number of things that conceptually I disagree with.

A Natural right does not require anyone to do anything, whereas a number of Human Rights do. All the Government needs to do is uphold my Natural Rights - but they aren't.


It is not illegal to not get vaccinated. THAT is LAW. Those that choose not to get vaccinated may loose some freedom to access some activities, and restrictions on where they can go.

So, you're using the threat of Government force (in the form of a $15,000 fine) to compel people to discriminate against those who choose not to be Vaccinated.

I happen to hold that those freedoms and activities are part of those natural rights.


NOBODY will be taken against their will and be vaccinated. Most of the weaker members of society will voluntarily present themselves for vaccination. They know it's in their own best interest.

No, we'll just keep discriminating against them until they bend the knee.



Nobody cares if you're short, fat, and/or stupid ... (not to mention argumentative) ... they'll vaccinate you anyway. Discrimination is not permitted for those doing the vaccination's ... by law.

They only care if you are unvaccinated, which is discriminatory.

[F5 Dave]

I can't see you TDL except where people quote you.

But I'm not hearing "No", to "Sore at both ends."

Your choice, and we don't kink shame here.

[pritch]

That depends on whether you consider being Jewish to be a Religious position or a Racial position. I'll agree that there were definitely racial aspects to the Holocaust, but considering genetic testing wasn't a thing...

Not to mention there were other people who were killed and not on the basis of Race...



It's not what any of us consider, it's what Hiler and his henchmen considered. You could consider that millions of the other people murdered were gypsies or Slavs who were definitely selected for their ethnicity.

[TheDemonLord]

I never "PAID" anything for my vaccination protection. It was free. Were you not aware of that .. ??

I'm comparing the Government to the Mafia running a Protection racket.


With the "authoritarian enforcement" came a lower rate of infections and deaths ... than most other countries00 of similar size (or per head of population) to NZ ... and those countries with more freedoms and fewer restrictions than we have.

See, I've heard this theory a lot. I'm yet to be convinced - given that there seems to have been multiple ways to deal with the Virus, Taiwan as an example. From the Data available, there's a reasonable case to be made that the natural layout and population distribution in NZ had a far bigger effect than any Government Policy.

Also bonus points for aging population, pre-existing health issues (like Obesity etc.).

But all that is an aside: Freedoms have a cost - those who trade Freedom for safety deserve neither, I think is the Franklin quote. We seem to have forgotten that.

Not only that, but there's a number of very concerning precedents set.


If 100 people were chosen at random ... I doubt 5 of them could name the leader of the Act Party.

Leader? I'd take that Bet and be confident of winning.
Any other MP, not so much.


They were referred to as being "Of the Jewish Race". You may not be actually aware that ALL citizens had to declare their ethnicity in writing to the authorities. Jews were held in the same regard as Colored persons.

I've read other sources were being in possession of Jewish items (like a copy of the Torah) was good enough - the point being however that if we put the Ethnic victims aside, there were (as you acknowledge in your next statement) victims who were persecuted on a purely ideological level.

Just like people who don't wish to Vaccinate are being discriminated against now.



It may come as a surprise to you ... but not all citizens of Germany agreed with Hitlers plans and ambitions. Regardless of their wealth or position. Their money and property was seized, and those people were either shot, or placed in labour camps. (usually the former)

Indeed - but everyone else either stood by and did nothing or implicitly allowed it to happen. I've seen some shop owners not comply with the new Legislation and some shop owners who have changed the way they operate so as to not have to discriminate.

They have my respect (and my business), the others don't.



To help "purify" the German race ... the murder of other groups for their perceived racial (or biological) inferiority ... also occurred. And possibly one of the reasons he invaded Russia. (That didn't end well for him)

Yes, we've got to keep those unclean Unvaccinated people away from the Pure Vaccinated.

Same logic, same discrimination - it was wrong in 1939 and was abhorrent in 1944, just as it's wrong now. A Government must never discriminate against a group of people.



Personally ... I do not think it is the Government that will cause your demise ... ;) You'll cause it yourself ... :lol:

Well, so far I've managed to avoid it. Whether that's through Luck or Skill, I'll leave to you - cause I'm not sure either!

[TheDemonLord]

I can't see you TDL except where people quote you.

But I'm not hearing "No", to "Sore at both ends."

Your choice, and we don't kink shame here.

Then you should either ignore more, or you should read what I said - cause I'm quite definitive about the whole bodily integrity thing.

[TheDemonLord]

LOL I love these antivax nutjobs. My particular favourite is the "but muh freedumbs". No one is forcing these knobends to do anything. Dont want a vaccine? Cool, no one is loading you into a coal train, taking you to, I dunno, Botany Downs and working you to death. If you don't wanna vaccine thats your choice.

No one in this argument is Anti-Vaxx. As I've stated many times.

I'm very much pro-Natural Rights, Anti-Discrimination.


But in the grown up world choices have consequences. Those consequences include not being able to go places or join the grownups as they socialise and get on with life. At it's essence it is that simple.

And that's duress. Which, if you are the Lawyer you claim to be, you should know a thing or two about. If I hold a knife to your throat and tell you to sign a contract and tell you "In the grown up would choices have Consequences, you can choose not to sign...."

Is that right?

Of course not.

Just like it's not right to try and fine people thousands of dollars for making a choice about their own bodies.


The other thing that I won't get into is their "arguments" (which arent arguments at all) about the basis for and the efficacy of the vaccine. But all these fucking retards should be doing is looking around and asking themselves a question - which is "OK, so if it was so bad, and 90% of the population (roughly) have had it, has the population reduced by 90% in the last year? No? Huh, OK, maybe it isnt so bad after all.

Again, not an Argument I've ever advanced. The only Argument I've pointed to is that it doesn't stop Transmission, therefore the claim by the Government that if everyone is Vaccinated, we'll all be safe from Herd Immunity is false.


Oh, and the visual disconnect of these angry fuckwits carrying (of all things) fucking Trump flags and United Tribes flags and "yer a communist AND hitler" (who was not a communist) and being egged on by the criminal genius with the lovely eyebrows the EFTpostle Brain Tamaki (Praywave TM). I just hope none of those cunts breed. Sadly it seems too late.

Oh No! People who like Freedom are rallying around a figure who promoted individual Freedom! The Horror.

Also, Hitler was a Marxist initially and all the original Fascists (on whom Hitler drew on) were also Marxists. Hitler references Marx quite a lot...



When I rule you (and I will) there will be licences for procreation, and none of these people will be granted them.

And I would expect nothing less from someone who seems opposed to the idea that other people can choose what they do with their bodies.

[TheDemonLord]

It's not what any of us consider, it's what Hiler and his henchmen considered. You could consider that millions of the other people murdered were gypsies or Slavs who were definitely selected for their ethnicity.

Yes and No, Even FJR acknowledges that there were people who were killed for their ideological belief (which was my overarching point) - and the determination of being Jewish didn't involve a DNA test, but was either self-declared (in the case of identity cards) or based on the ownership of Jewish paraphernalia.

[pritch]

Had lunch with a motorcyclist of my acquaintance this week. Was rather surprised to find he's an anti vaxxer. He's gone down the rabbit hole, an avid reader of the anti vax web sites. He lost his job this week.

A local group he and I rode with now has several anti vaxxers in it apparently. They can no longer ride to their favourite pub. If the other members can forego their alcoholic drinks they can head to the nearby cafe instead. Otherwise I guess the anti vaxxers will have to organise picnics.

I find myself shouting at the TV when some tragic or other is bemoaning the imminent loss of their job or house. "Get the fucking jab"!

The latest in the USA is magic dirt sourced from an ancient peat bog. If you mix it with your bath water it will draw the vaccine out of your system. If you eat it, drink it, feed it to your kids, or wash the dog in it, all apparently recommended uses, all will be protected against COVID. So at about US$100 apiece for a little plastic bag of dirt you can protect yourself from the vaccine and the disease. Just like magic.

The ancient peat bog though borders a modern landfill. One person more intelligent than the rest sent his bag away for analysis. The magic dirt contains dangerous levels of lead and arsenic. :brick:

[husaberg]

The latest in the USA is magic dirt sourced from an ancient peat bog. If you mix it with your bath water i will draw the vaccine out of your system, if you eat it, drink it, feed it to your kids, or wash the dog in it, all apparently recommended uses, all will be protected against COVID. So at about US$100 apiece for a little plastic bag of dirt you can protect yourself from the vaccine and the disease. Just like magic.

The ancient peat bog though borders a modern landfill. One person more intelligent than the rest sent his bag away for analysis. The magic dirt contains dangerous levels of lead and arsenic. :brick:

until you said it had a effective amount of active ingredient i was thinking "homeopathy":lol:

[pritch]

Yes and No, Even FJR acknowledges that there were people who were killed for their ideological belief (which was my overarching point) - and the determination of being Jewish didn't involve a DNA test, but was either self-declared (in the case of identity cards) or based on the ownership of Jewish paraphernalia.

There were cripples and intellectually handicapped people consigned to the camps too. If POWs pissed their own camp management off enough, they too could be sent to the camps. The big part of the twelve million though were Jews, Gypsies and Slavs.

[Laava]

I went on a bike trip this weekend with an antivaxxer (courtesy of Profit Tamaki) who had the spiel drummed into him.
He is actually a nice guy and I like him and hope things will change for him but one thing that became obvious to me and seems typical anyway is this, and I have another mate who supports this,
if you are considering the facts, or the facts as put forward by our govt c/o boffins etc, concerning covid statistics there is the following conundrum;
1,the official death by covid vaccine rate, currently at 1 afaik? My mate thinks this is much higher, higher than the 46 the lady at ITM told me. He didn't have actual figures or a source, but assured me I could find it out if I researched it.
2, the official death by covid, currently at 44. My other mate thinks this figure is much higher than actual, the people who died might have been only recently infected, or recently recovered or in a household with infection or death caused by underlying condition.
So, OK, I get that people want to dispute the figures but this means my mates believe that more people have been killed directly by the vaccine than by the virus itself?
Honestly don't think they have thought this through.

[FJRider]

I'm very much pro-Natural Rights, Anti-Discrimination.





Good to hear ... But if you continue to post stuff that you attribute to me as a quote of a post of mine (as you have in this post) ... which is NOT a post of mine ... then you are a bigger and more useless fuckwit than I thought.

[FJRider]

... however the current declaration of Human Rights has a number of things that conceptually I disagree with.

That comes as no surprise ... :blank:


A Natural right does not require anyone to do anything, whereas a number of Human Rights do. All the Government needs to do is uphold my Natural Rights - but they aren't.

Among these fundamental natural rights, Locke said, are "life, liberty, and property." YOU have a life (of sorts) ... and your liberty (and everybody else's) was fought for (more than once) by people you never met. And even the un-vaxed can buy/own property. I don't get the perceived issue you have.


So, you're using the threat of Government force (in the form of a $15,000 fine) to compel people to discriminate against those who choose not to be Vaccinated.

I must have got it wrong then. I assumed you meant the UN-vaccinated were the one's getting discriminated against. THEY have to be vaccinated too remember. But ... if those business owners want to continue in business ... how closely they follow the rules is (I guess) THEIR business.


I happen to hold that those freedoms and activities are part of those natural rights.

Freedom isn't free. It comes at a cost. Often paid for in blood. The freedoms and activities are there still for you to enjoy.


No, we'll just keep discriminating against them until they bend the knee.

So we ARE discriminating against the un-vaxed. Who is NOT getting discriminated against ... ??? :scratch:

To me ... it seems like it's the vaccinated public that have all the freedom.

Good news though ... that includes me.

There are a few good Cafe's in Dunedin I may visit tomorrow ... because I can.





They only care if you are unvaccinated, which is discriminatory.

They do so care about me. I'm working and paying tax. And I have the freedom to go where I like on my days off.

Life is good.

[TheDemonLord]

Good to hear ... But if you continue to post stuff that you attribute to me as a quote of a post of mine (as you have in this post) ... which is NOT a post of mine ... then you are a bigger and more useless fuckwit than I thought.

Oops!

That was some overzealous use of Copy and Paste - I've now corrected.

My apologies, was a mistake.

[TheDemonLord]

That comes as no surprise ... :blank:

Well, the reason why might surprise you.

Consider the right to Education, unlike the right to free speech, someone has to provide said Education. Which means if it is declared a right, it must be provided, which brings in an element of Compulsion.


Among these fundamental natural rights, Locke said, are "life, liberty, and property." YOU have a life (of sorts) ... and your liberty (and everybody else's) was fought for (more than once) by people you never met. And even the un-vaxed can buy/own property. I don't get the perceived issue you have.

It's the middle one. Liberty. The right to go without let or hindrance freely.

It was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Blacks allowed', it's was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Jews allowed' and it's also wrong when we have signs that say 'No Unvaccinated allowed'




I must have got it wrong then. I assumed you meant the UN-vaccinated were the one's getting discriminated against. THEY have to be vaccinated too remember. But ... if those business owners want to continue in business ... how closely they follow the rules is (I guess) THEIR business.

Under the threat of a Fine, the Business owners are discriminating against the Unvaccinated.


Freedom isn't free. It comes at a cost. Often paid for in blood. The freedoms and activities are there still for you to enjoy.

I entirely agree with the first part, which was why when I opposed Lockdowns and the other tyrannical measures, I said I was happy to pay the potential cost of freedom (including Death).

However, if all businesses discriminate against a particular group because of the threat of Government fiat, then it's not really free, is it.


So we ARE discriminating against the un-vaxed. Who is NOT getting discriminated against ... ??? :scratch:

To me ... it seems like it's the vaccinated public that have all the freedom.

Good news though ... that includes me.

There are a few good Cafe's in Dunedin I may visit tomorrow ... because I can.

Remember, I'm vaccinated too - but I cannot stand for Discrimination and an interference with someone's bodily autonomy. Just because I might be on the approved list this time the Government wants to single out a group, doesn't mean I won't be next time.

Their rights are my rights and if I fail to uphold the rights of those I disagree with, then I have no leg to stand on when my rights are likewise not upheld.

I hold to the same ideal for everyone.



They do so care about me. I'm working and paying tax. And I have the freedom to go where I like on my days off.

Life is good.

Do you have that freedom? If you'd asked me 2 years ago whether or not in a Western Democracy a group in society would be singled out and denied access to certain shops because of their religious/political belief - even me, as much as I can't stand the Ardern Dictatorship, wouldn't have believed it.

[FJRider]

Well, the reason why might surprise you.

This may surprise you ... but I don't care why.


Consider the right to Education, unlike the right to free speech, someone has to provide said Education. Which means if it is declared a right, it must be provided, which brings in an element of Compulsion.

And it's supposed to be free as well. Your point is ... ??

The phrase ... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink ... comes to mind. The Education services are there and freely [sic] available. It's there ... for those that WANT it.


... It's the middle one. Liberty. The right to go without let or hindrance freely.

The last few days ... my wife and I were out and about seeing where we could (or couldn't) go. Public buildings, Cafe's, businesses, and not once were we asked for our "Covid Pass". That right seems to be still there for me still.


It was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Blacks allowed', it's was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Jews allowed' and it's also wrong when we have signs that say 'No Unvaccinated allowed'

The signs said (in a few places) that a Covid pass must be produced on request. Or that we must have a Covid Pass. But nobody requested it. Put up a sign saying "Wet Paint" an watch the result. Everybody will stick their finger on it to check. The importance and relevance of signs are overrated.


Under the threat of a Fine, the Business owners are discriminating against the Unvaccinated.

You mean the Business owners are being asked to police the system. In actual reality (around here) they're not.


I...I said I was happy to pay the potential cost of freedom (including Death).

You STILL haven't paid that cost ... we're still waiting for your death. Will you be quick about it .. ??


However, if all businesses discriminate against a particular group because of the threat of Government fiat, then it's not really free, is it.

The reality is ... ALL businesses are not. Go and check that out yourself if you don't believe me


Remember, I'm vaccinated too - but I cannot stand for Discrimination and an interference with someone's bodily autonomy. Just because I might be on the approved list this time the Government wants to single out a group, doesn't mean I won't be next time.

I'm vaxed too. And I promise I wont interfere with your bodily autonomy as well. Even if you are on the approved list.


Their rights are my rights and if I fail to uphold the rights of those I disagree with, then I have no leg to stand on when my rights are likewise not upheld.

I hold to the same ideal for everyone.

I very much doubt that you do. The laws of this country are there to ensure the rights and freedoms of all citizens in NZ are upheld. But I would bet that you pick which laws you will or wont adhere to at any (chosen by you) time. So your "I hold to ... " is your usual bullshit.



Do you have that freedom?

There is nowhere I cannot go now ... that that I was able to go prior to the Pandemic. So my answer is yes.

[pritch]

It was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Blacks allowed', it's was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Jews allowed' and it's also wrong when we have signs that say 'No Unvaccinated allowed'


That's confused thinking. The blacks could not make themselves unblack. Nor could Jews make themselves unJewish. The unvaccinated can easily arrange to be vaccinated. Their problems are of their own creation. Actions have consequences. They are quite happy to endanger everybody else with whom they come in contact, they merit zero sympathy or concern.

I'm unaware of any religion that prohibits vaccination unless it's Jehova's Witnesses. Tamaki and others of that ilk are not a religion, they're a grift.

[pritch]

Very impressive photograph of the new leader of the opposition.

[pete376403]

That's confused thinking. The blacks could not make themselves unblack. Nor could Jews make themselves unJewish. The unvaccinated can easily arrange to be vaccinated. Their problems are of their own creation. Actions have consequences. They are quite happy to endanger everybody else with whom they come in contact, they merit zero sympathy or concern.

I'm unaware of any religion that prohibits vaccination unless it's Jehova's Witnesses. Tamaki and others of that ilk are not a religion, they're a grift.

Nor could merely being in the proximity of jews or blacks infect you wth a life threatening virus.

[FJRider]

Nor could merely being in the proximity of jews or blacks infect you wth a life threatening virus.

In these times ... Aucklander's may well do though ... :killingme

[F5 Dave]

TDL you complete Turkey. An Unvaccinated person is 20 times more likely to pass on the virus. Why on earth would you want them in your shop?

I mean For Fucks Sake. Are you really incapable of working that out? I'm typing this slowly so you might be able to keep up.

[husaberg]

TDL you complete Turkey. An Unvaccinated person is 20 times more likely to pass on the virus. Why on earth would you want them in your shop?

I mean For Fucks Sake. Are you really incapable of working that out? I'm typing this slowly so you might be able to keep up.
Yes Yes. Good luck
TDL seem to think its a god given right for the unvaxed to knowingly and callously risk the lives of others to infect other people. Go merica
Nearly as funny as the time he claimed a gun law voted for by all the MP bar one was undemocratic.
If you want him t go quiet ask him if he handed in his illegal AR10 firearm

[TheDemonLord]

This may surprise you ... but I don't care why.

And it's supposed to be free as well. Your point is ... ??

Right - Something has to be done, by someone and has to be done for Free - with the compulsion of Government behind it - Do you not see the scenario where that might be an issue?


The last few days ... my wife and I were out and about seeing where we could (or couldn't) go. Public buildings, Cafe's, businesses, and not once were we asked for our "Covid Pass". That right seems to be still there for me still.

The signs said (in a few places) that a Covid pass must be produced on request. Or that we must have a Covid Pass. But nobody requested it. Put up a sign saying "Wet Paint" an watch the result. Everybody will stick their finger on it to check. The importance and relevance of signs are overrated.

You mean the Business owners are being asked to police the system. In actual reality (around here) they're not.

The reality is ... ALL businesses are not. Go and check that out yourself if you don't believe me

But I would bet that you pick which laws you will or wont adhere to at any (chosen by you) time. So your "I hold to ... " is your usual bullshit.

There is nowhere I cannot go now ... that that I was able to go prior to the Pandemic. So my answer is yes.


I'm lumping all these quotes together, because I think you prove my over-arching point.

Firstly the question is why in your area Business owners are paying lip-service to the rule? A Quick aside - good on them and everyone should be supporting the businesses that are engaging in Civil disobedience.

But there's a few answers:

1: They don't want to piss off their customer base
2: They can't be bothered
3: They don't want to discriminate

You asked about me picking and choosing which laws I follow and which I don't - and you are correct, there are some laws (such as this one) that are fundamentally immoral. I suspect that on some level the Shop owners also feel that way, which is why they aren't following the rules either.

Do you consider the Shop owners you speak of to be moral or immoral? And if so, what sets them apart from me?



You STILL haven't paid that cost ... we're still waiting for your death. Will you be quick about it .. ??

Well, I'm not going to sell myself cheap.


I very much doubt that you do. The laws of this country are there to ensure the rights and freedoms of all citizens in NZ are upheld.

Unless you're unvaccinated, apparently. If the Laws were simply to uphold the natural rights of all citizens, I'd be extremely happy - but we both know that is not the case.




There is nowhere I cannot go now ... that that I was able to go prior to the Pandemic. So my answer is yes.

For now, you might find that the Police end up making an example of a business, then you might find things change, but even then - just because you aren't personally affected by an injustice, doesn't make the injustice any less wrong.

[TheDemonLord]

Nor could Jews make themselves unJewish. The unvaccinated can easily arrange to be vaccinated. Their problems are of their own creation.

Have you ever read the history of what people will do, in the face of Government torture, tyranny and Death, when it comes to their Religious Beliefs? Asking someone to convert, at the point of a sword rarely works. And Yes, I do consider the faith-based position of the Anti-vaxxers to be fundamentally religious in conception.

In terms of Jews - the Nazis certainly used Synagogue membership lists and Parish lists to track down people who were Jewish - both of which have nought to do with Genetics and everything to do with the Faith.


Actions have consequences.

Says the Mafioso holding a brick, whilst demanding the Protection money.


They are quite happy to endanger everybody else with whom they come in contact, they merit zero sympathy or concern.

See, this is where it gets interesting - When you drive on the road - you are (by your definitions) endangering everybody else around you, yet you still drive.

If you were to be involved in an Accident, would you merit zero sympathy or concern? Afterall, you chose to drive, and Actions have Consequences, right?

Or does that standard only apply to the undesirables or the untermensch of society?


Tamaki and others of that ilk are not a religion, they're a grift.

Don't get me wrong, Brian Tamaki is monstrous thundercunt of the highest order. That said, even a broken clock can be correct twice a day.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL you complete Turkey. An Unvaccinated person is 20 times more likely to pass on the virus.

Erm, that's I believe within 2 months of the last shot.

Afterwhich someone who is double jabbed and is an asymptomatic carrier has between a 60-80% chance to pass on the Virus. I believe it was the Israelis that did the study on that, and I've seen multiple articles (from reputable sources like New Scientiest, Nature etc.) that confirm Herd Immunity with Covid specifically because of the fact that vaccination doesn't stop transmission is unfeasible.


Why on earth would you want them in your shop?

Because I'm vaccinated so I'm not worried.

Again, what do the Vaccinated have to fear from the Unvaccinated.

If it's the world-ending pandemic it's portrayed (up to 99% survival rate and doesn't affect Children!), then all the Unvaccinated will die off and I'll be fine.
If it's NOT the world-ending pandemic it's portrayed as, then all the unvaccinated will be fine and so will I.


I mean For Fucks Sake. Are you really incapable of working that out? I'm typing this slowly so you might be able to keep up.

I'd suggest the reason you're typing slowly is because your trying to resolve the above hypocrisy.

But don't worry, I read what you wrote quite quickly, so it all evens out.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes Yes. Good luck
TDL seem to think its a god given right for the unvaxed to knowingly and callously risk the lives of others to infect other people. Go merica

No you midwit, The God Given right is that you can't use your fears and concerns to compel other people to do what you want. And yes, that Right sometimes mean people Die, but people die all the time from the results of their Freedoms.


Nearly as funny as the time he claimed a gun law voted for by all the MP bar one was undemocratic.

Was that the one where they rushed it through, artificially changed the submission process so that those opposed only had 24 hours to make submissions and didn't allow people who want to give a verbal submission to do so?

Yeah, Reaaaaaaaaaaal Democratic.


If you want him t go quiet ask him if he handed in his illegal AR10 firearm

And I told you I never agreed to give you an answer and that the only answer you will ever get is: "I did the right thing."

[sugilite]

Offf!
Another kick in the but for the corrupt bitch

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127195948/live-christopher-luxon-demotes-judith-collins-off-front-bench-in-first-reshuffle

[TheDemonLord]

Offf!
Another kick in the but for the corrupt bitch

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127195948/live-christopher-luxon-demotes-judith-collins-off-front-bench-in-first-reshuffle

Well, well....

He's starting to grow on me :D

[pritch]

Have you ever read the history of what people will do, in the face of Government torture, tyranny and Death, when it comes to their Religious Beliefs? Asking someone to convert, at the point of a sword rarely works. And Yes, I do consider the faith-based position of the Anti-vaxxers to be fundamentally religious in conception.

In terms of Jews - the Nazis certainly used Synagogue membership lists and Parish lists to track down people who were Jewish - both of which have nought to do with Genetics and everything to do with the Faith.



Says the Mafioso holding a brick, whilst demanding the Protection money.



See, this is where it gets interesting - When you drive on the road - you are (by your definitions) endangering everybody else around you, yet you still drive.

If you were to be involved in an Accident, would you merit zero sympathy or concern? Afterall, you chose to drive, and Actions have Consequences, right?

Or does that standard only apply to the undesirables or the untermensch of society?



Don't get me wrong, Brian Tamaki is monstrous thundercunt of the highest order. That said, even a broken clock can be correct twice a day.

That is all based on a false premise. This is not about religion. It's about misinformation.

One particularly gullible mother is reportedly claiming that the vaccine made her fourteen year old daughter pregnant. And that's not even particularly silly these days.

[TheDemonLord]

That is all based on a false premise. This is not about religion. It's about misinformation.

One particularly gullible mother is reportedly claiming that the vaccine made her fourteen year old daughter pregnant. And that's not even particularly silly these days.

You missed the point.

I'm not saying Anti-Vaxxers are anti-vax because of a pre-existing Religion.

I'm saying that the Anti-Vaxx belief has all the hallmarks of being like a religion and that they hold it with such zeal that it would make even the most pious of Catholic blush.

[MD]

It was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Blacks allowed', it's was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Jews allowed' and it's also wrong when we have signs that say 'No Unvaccinated allowed'



I really shouldn't take the bait and respond because my discussions with anti-vaxxers has shown me that you cannot reason with stupid and ignorant.

There is a fundamental flaw you conveniently ignore in listing those above statements. Agreed it is wrong to deny entry because of someone's skin colour or religoius faith. [Assuming] the black or jew entering a building or shop posed no threat or harm to others. However, the difference you pretend not to grasp is an Unvaccinated person IS A THREAT. IS POSING A HIGHER RISK OF HARMING ALL OTHERS AROUND THEM and they know it, but selfishly think their right to endanger and harm others is superior to the others rights not to be harmed. This seems to be a common view by anti-vaxxers proclaiming they are fighting for all our rights and freedoms, so long as we acknowledge that they are more equal and are entited to a higher level of freedom than anybody else. Take you example further, what if someone in a burqa walked into a cafe and had a suicide belt of dynamite strapped around their waist, carried multiple guns screaming they have typhoid, the plague, cholera, measles and ebola. At what point would it become wise to restrict their access/movements? Or would their freedom and right to enter that shop still be paramount and unchallengeable on any grounds?

We are all facing a new health risk and all that is being asked is for us all to help reduce the chance of it spreading and people getting sick. I see that as simply showing some common courtesy and respect for others wellbeing.

Edit- Well done you getting the jab. Thanks for helping protect others

[TheDemonLord]

I really shouldn't take the bait and respond because my discussions with anti-vaxxers has shown me that you cannot reason with stupid and ignorant.

There is a fundamental flaw you conveniently ignore in listing those above statements. Agreed it is wrong to deny entry because of someone's skin colour or religoius faith. [Assuming] the black or jew entering a building or shop posed no threat or harm to others. However, the difference you pretend not to grasp is an Unvaccinated person IS A THREAT. IS POSING A HIGHER RISK OF HARMING ALL OTHERS AROUND THEM

Guess what the justification for all the instances of Discrimination that I listed was?

Whether it's a Physical threat or an existential threat, the justification is the same. Now, I'll agree that a Virus does pose more of an actual threat than any of the supposed threats used in the past, but I think it's a good time to remind everyone of 99% survival rate.


but selfishly think their right to endanger and harm others is superior to the others rights not to be harmed.

See, this is the wrong framing of how Rights work. Consider driving, when you drive, you are endangering other people (potentially) - if those other people turned round and denied you the ability to drive based on the fact you might be a risk to them, it would be wrong.

The correct way to frame it is that you only have agency over yourself: You can wear a Seatbelt, you can buy a vehicle with a bajillion Airbags, but you can't deny others their right to also drive.

Likewise with the Virus - You can get vaccinated, You can wear a Mask, You can social distance - but you cannot compel others to do the same based on the notion they might be a threat to you.


This seems to be a common view by anti-vaxxers proclaiming they are fighting for all our rights and freedoms, so long as we acknowledge that they are more equal and are entited to a higher level of freedom than anybody else.

They are.

The right to Stupid and the Freedom to do stupid things is the ultimate Right and Freedom, I don't mean this in a Glib sense, Consider DIY - we all do it, we all enjoy doing it - how many serious accidents and deaths occur around the home every year due to DIY - yet we hold this as a Right and a Freedom, knowing that some people are going to something stupid and twat themselves.


Take you example further, what if someone in a burqa walked into a cafe and had a suicide belt of dynamite strapped around their waist, carried multiple guns screaming they have typhoid, the plague, cholera, measles and ebola.

I mean, if they could walk with all that, then...

but jokes aside - let's break it down - if you're wearing an S-Vest, then there's a reasonable presumption that you have illegal intent. Open Carrying a Firearm in public is generally not allowed in NZ, with the only real exceptions being if it's done in an appropriate context e.g. going Hunting on DOC Land.

As for the pathogens you listed - all of them share a common: Significantly more deadly than Covid AND they also affect the Young as well.

Now, to answer the question seriously - there are times when a little restriction of freedoms is appropriate - I'll give a current example, I've got a membership to a Swimming Pool, as I like to Swim. Access to the Pools doesn't require a Passport, but access to the Steam room and Sauna do. Given that the Sauna is an enclosed area, with the perfect environment for Bugs to get passed (yes, this is more applicable to Bacteria rather than Viruses but if your body is fighting off one Virus, you're more susceptible to other things) and with close proximity - for that limited scenario, I think it's reasonable.

Same with visiting an Old Folks home or other facilities that have a significant elderly membership - there are pragmatic, limited scenarios where some temporary restrictions are appropriate - but the key words there are 'Temporary' and 'limited', whereas the Government plans so far have been anything but.


We are all facing a new health risk and all that is being asked is for us all to help reduce the chance of it spreading and people getting sick. I see that as simply showing some common courtesy and respect for others wellbeing.

Asked? No.
We are being dictated to, threats of Fines for non-compliance and infringing on peoples bodily autonomy.

For a 'Health Risk' with a 99% recovery rate...


Edit- Well done you getting the jab Thanks for helping protect others

I didn't get it to protect others. I got it to protect myself.

That distinction is important, See what I said above that we can only control ourselves and not others. I can't control that I might bump into someone who has Covid, despite all the precautions, therefore I took the steps I thought prudent to protect myself given I'm a bit on the portly side, even though statistically I'm likely to be fine, I've never had a negative side effect from any Vaccination (and this one was no different) - so there was no potential negatives for me and the science behind the Vaccine was fairly solid (in an ideal world, I'd have liked to have seen some long-term data, but consider it's just 2 shots, it's a small risk), so I decided to get it, but the decision to do so was only ever centered on myself.

[pete376403]

Have you ever read the history of what people will do, in the face of Government torture, tyranny and Death, when it comes to their Religious Beliefs? Asking someone to convert, at the point of a sword rarely works. And Yes, I do consider the faith-based position of the Anti-vaxxers to be fundamentally religious in conception.

In terms of Jews - the Nazis certainly used Synagogue membership lists and Parish lists to track down people who were Jewish - both of which have nought to do with Genetics and everything to do with the Faith..

The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims. Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust". Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.

[TheDemonLord]

The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims.

The Census was one method, but there were other methods - such as looking at Synagogue records - which in of itself has no Racial component and is purely ideological - and we know this because it includes converts to Judaism.


Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust".

I absolutely would - I've read a little about that. One of the reasons I'm of the opinion that the Government should have the least possible information about me on record.



Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.

I shouldn't laugh - because of the horrendous subject matter, but I've had issues with field length far more times than I'd like...

[husaberg]

The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims. Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust". Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.
Ya wasting your time anytime something happens he doesn't like he cries communism or nazi or undemocratic. or all three.
He goes on with the rights of individuals and companies to stay or do what they like..... unless of course its something he doesn't like , like ban trump from twitter etc etc etc. then he will claim censorship etc etc.
you would have to wonder if NZ was so bad why he doesn't go back to England under Boris the bestest ever tory.

[TheDemonLord]

Ya wasting your time anytime something happens he doesn't like he cries communism or nazi or undemocratic. or all three.

Yes, isn't it funny how Undemocratic, Communist and Fascist frequently share the same bed...


He goes on with the rights of individuals and companies to stay or do what they like..... unless its something he doesn't like what they do, like ban trump from twitter etc etc etc

I do - and in case you've forgotten, Free Speech is one of those rights.

As for Twitter et al, There are two issues at play - one is the unequal application of the rules, I mean, Donald Trump was yeeted from the platform, but the Taliban still had Twitter accounts...

The second is Quasi public spaces, whereby the Supreme Court has ruled that if a privately owned space has all the functionality of a Public space, then the protection of the 1st Amendment applies:


"the more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who use it.” The Court continued, “Whether a corporation or a municipality owns or possesses the town[,] the public in either case has an identical interest in the functioning of the community in such manner that the channels of communication remain free."

Now, whether or not you believe Twitter and social media at large to be covered by that is up to your interpretation, however the key thing here is 'opens up his property for use by the public in general' - which to me definitely describes Facebook, Youtube, Twitter - since for all three, an account is not required to view and there is no fee to join.

Further to that, the 1st Amendment was written to protect anywhere that political speech was taking place in the public domain - which definitely describes Twitter.

And you'll also note (because you're an idiot with a short memory) that Trump was prohibited, by the Federal Court - from blocking people on his twitter account under the auspices of the First Amendment - So, which is it? Is it private property when you want to ban Trump, but a public space when you want to hurl abuse at Trump?


you would have to wonder if NZ was so bad why he doesn't go back to England under Boris the bestest ever tory.

I like Boris - or at least, I liked pre-Covid Boris, there's many many many things I'm not happy with the UK Tory Government on. Like not repealing a whole load of Tony Blair's crap, not reigning in the BBC, Allowing the Migrant Crisis to continue etc.

[F5 Dave]

So 8 pages in, and I've just realised that I'd been misreading the title of this thread. My minds eye version I saw had an 'it in the' that just wasn't there. :scratch:

Makes my first post less funny,:

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1131193736]So is there a link to the original premise of this thread?

Asking for a friend. :banana:[/QUOTE

[TheDemonLord]

So 8 pages in, and I've just realised that I'd been misreading the title of this thread. My minds eye version I saw had an 'it in the' that just wasn't there. :scratch:

Makes my first post less funny,

If it's any consolation - I still laughed...

[FJRider]

Right - Something has to be done, by someone and has to be done for Free - with the compulsion of Government behind it - Do you not see the scenario where that might be an issue?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here ... but enlighten me ...


I'm lumping all these quotes together, because I think you prove my over-arching point.

Firstly the question is why in your area Business owners are paying lip-service to the rule? A Quick aside - good on them and everyone should be supporting the businesses that are engaging in Civil disobedience.

Until they get caught/charged/fined.

If you really support them ... Will you contribute to help pay their fines ??


But there's a few answers:

1: They don't want to piss off their customer base
2: They can't be bothered
3: They don't want to discriminate

I'd say all of the above.


You asked about me picking and choosing which laws I follow and which I don't - and you are correct, there are some laws (such as this one) that are fundamentally immoral. I suspect that on some level the Shop owners also feel that way, which is why they aren't following the rules either.

Law and Legislation cannot always be ignored for whatever reason you choose give. If the infection rate and hospitalization rates increase ... you can expect the fines to be commonplace. And increased.


Do you consider the Shop owners you speak of to be moral or immoral? And if so, what sets them apart from me?

Morality is a seldom heard reason for breaking the law. I hadn't realized you were so virtuous ... :shifty:



Well, I'm not going to sell myself cheap.

$5.00 if you change your mind ... :shifty:


Unless you're unvaccinated, apparently. If the Laws were simply to uphold the natural rights of all citizens, I'd be extremely happy - but we both know that is not the case.

ALL citizens include those that are vaccinated. And have the (Natural ??) Right to NOT have their safety of health put at risk ... by those that are NOT vaccinated. I believe THAT is a "Natural Right" THEY have.


For now, you might find that the Police end up making an example of a business, then you might find things change, but even then - just because you aren't personally affected by an injustice, doesn't make the injustice any less wrong.

Police might not act unless a complaint is made. They are busy people you know.

[R650R]

The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims. Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust". Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.

And to take that further, much of the atrocity and death was enabled caused by private enterprise. Hitler took the rap but many of the death star were from poor work conditions at camps owned by corporations with links to American financiers in some cases. And many of the sunsets of the IG Farben group of companies are major players today that no one bats an eyelid about at their history....
Law and order was maintained in the camps by selecting the worst known criminals in camps and giving them priviledges to do the deeds to keep inmates under control. Ironically called sommer commando....
Anyhow a lot of that sounds awfully familiar to things in today s society.....

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here ... but enlighten me ...

What do you call it when the state forces you to work?


Until they get caught/charged/fined.

If you really support them ... Will you contribute to help pay their fines ??

By ensuring that they receive the maximum amount of my Patronage possible and encouraging others to do the same.


I'd say all of the above.

Glad you agree, because it makes the next point I'm about to make easier:


Law and Legislation cannot always be ignored for whatever reason you choose give. If the infection rate and hospitalization rates increase ... you can expect the fines to be commonplace. And increased.

Morality is a seldom heard reason for breaking the law. I hadn't realized you were so virtuous ... :shifty:

Not true, Civil Disobedience has long been a part of the tools of Protest in the Western world. Especially when a Law violates some of the principles that have guided our society.


$5.00 if you change your mind ... :shifty:

I think we need a few more zeros after the first positive integer and before the decimal point


ALL citizens include those that are vaccinated. And have the (Natural ??) Right to NOT have their safety of health put at risk ... by those that are NOT vaccinated. I believe THAT is a "Natural Right" THEY have.

No. They Don't. This is a very key philosophical point to understand and it happens to underpin all of our freedoms.

Simply put - you cannot control other people, if you are concerned about your health being put at risk, the Liberal system allows you to take precautions to protect yourself - but it does not allow you to use your fears to infringe on the rights of others.

Here's a little contrived scenario to highlight the point:

If you are concerned about getting robbed when you go out at night, the Liberal system says you can do some of the following:

- Choose not to go out
- Choose to avoid high risk areas
- Choose to go with friends
- Choose to carry a self-defence tool
- Choose not to carry any valuables etc.

All of which are decisions you make by yourself, for yourself.

However, if you were to demand that in order for you to go safely out at night, that all Men between the ages of 15 and 35 have to be locked up (the biggest demographic that commits crime) - that would be wholly illiberal. Because it is a Decision that you are making for other people.

That's effectively the end-result of what you are advocating for, ever increasing amounts of tyranny and state control in the name of Safety - You don't have a right to be Safe, you have a right to be Free. They are fundamentally not the same.


Police might not act unless a complaint is made. They are busy people you know.

And yet when there is a political Goal, suddenly they find time, resources, money and man-power....

[F5 Dave]

And to take that further, much of the atrocity and death was enabled caused by private enterprise. Hitler took the rap but many of the death star were from poor work conditions at camps owned by corporations with links to American financiers in some cases. And many of the sunsets of the IG Farben group of companies are major players today that no one bats an eyelid about at their history....
Law and order was maintained in the camps by selecting the worst known criminals in camps and giving them priviledges to do the deeds to keep inmates under control. Ironically called sommer commando....
Anyhow a lot of that sounds awfully familiar to things in today s society.....

Read: the holocaust was bad management practices? You do really have no bounds to your misinformation.

Expecting flat earth next.

And conditions on the death star was probably more Darth Vader's bag, we can give you that.

[FJRider]

What do you call it when the state forces you to work?

It's called employment. Apparently going out of fashion in some places.


By ensuring that they receive the maximum amount of my Patronage possible and encouraging others to do the same.

Great. I bet you run out of money before they do.


Glad you agree, because it makes the next point I'm about to make easier:

I'm waiting to see what your point is ...


Not true, Civil Disobedience has long been a part of the tools of Protest in the Western world. Especially when a Law violates some of the principles that have guided our society.

Breaking the law is not always successful. Sometimes it backfires ... and all your promised support vanishes. What do the do then ... ???


I think we need a few more zeros after the first positive integer and before the decimal point

Nah ... you'd be overpaid at $5.00


No. They Don't. This is a very key philosophical point to understand and it happens to underpin all of our freedoms.

So ... It's ok for business owners to allow those illegally entering their business, and potentially endangering the health of their (legal) customers, and you say they have to because it's not their right to stop them entering their business .. ??


Simply put - you cannot control other people, if you are concerned about your health being put at risk, the Liberal system allows you to take precautions to protect yourself - but it does not allow you to use your fears to infringe on the rights of others.

The Covid Pass is law. The business's can use that law to protect themselves.


And yet when there is a political Goal, suddenly they find time, resources, money and man-power....

And they'll win the next election too.

All any opposition seem to do is score an own goal.



Still waiting for your point .... just saying ...

[husaberg]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/331698/man-sentenced-after-knowingly-infecting-partner-with-hiv

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/page/peter-mwai-hiv-case

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3107004/Jail-for-man-who-infected-girlfriend-with-HIV

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/86991903/police-contacting-people-as-hivpositive-man-charged-with-unprotected-sex

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/331698/man-sentenced-after-knowingly-infecting-partner-with-hiv

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/page/peter-mwai-hiv-case

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3107004/Jail-for-man-who-infected-girlfriend-with-HIV

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/86991903/police-contacting-people-as-hivpositive-man-charged-with-unprotected-sex

And here we have the Strawman, right on time and right on cue.

[TheDemonLord]

It's called employment. Apparently going out of fashion in some places.

Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?


Great. I bet you run out of money before they do.

Well, so far that's not happened....


Breaking the law is not always successful. Sometimes it backfires ... and all your promised support vanishes. What do the do then ... ???

No one ever said doing what is morally right was easy.

In fact, the very nature of it being difficult to do is why it's considered a Virtue.


Nah ... you'd be overpaid at $5.00

The Market would tend to disagree...



So ... It's ok for business owners to allow those illegally entering their business, and potentially endangering the health of their (legal) customers, and you say they have to because it's not their right to stop them entering their business .. ??

Is it okay to stop Muslims from entering your Business, because they might potentially endanger the health of your customers, simply on the basis of their deeply held Faith?

I'd say that would fall under Discrimination and would be wrong. It's wrong to do it at an interpersonal level and it is VERY wrong when done at a legislative and Governmental level.



The Covid Pass is law. The business's can use that law to protect themselves.

Yeah, Laws =/= Moral. Apartheid was Law, so was Slavery - does this mean that both of these were just and Moral because they were legal?


And they'll win the next election too.

All any opposition seem to do is score an own goal.

Well, so far the New National guy has made some good steps regarding Collins, so we'll see, Baby-steps. Current polling shows ACT to be on the rise and the combination of National/ACT has a greater percentage than Labour/Greens.




Still waiting for your point .... just saying ...

When you omit certain words from what was said, then say you don't see the point....

Tsk tsk.

[FJRider]

Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?

Poverty and greed forces me to work. It provides a much better income than a benefit. It's worked (excuse the pun) for me so far ... :yes:


Well, so far that's not happened....

On a benefit with a heap of kids (not necessarily all yours) should provide a handy income ... :yes:


No one ever said doing what is morally right was easy.

I think we might agree that your idea of what morals should be held ... and what views should be held as being "Morally right" ... might differ from mine ... :yes:


In fact, the very nature of it being difficult to do is why it's considered a Virtue.

Breaking any law should hardly be considered virtuous. Or difficult to do. If it is difficult for you ... you're doing it wrong ... :yes:


The Market would tend to disagree...

If it was a slave market. Your owner might get $10 ... Dog food is expensive ... :yes:


Is it okay to stop Muslims from entering your Business, because they might potentially endanger the health of your customers, simply on the basis of their deeply held Faith?

I would have more faith (excuse the pun) in them than you. Simply because if they had a vaccine pass ... they would be perfectly ENTITLED to be in my business. And I personally know a large number of Muslims in this country and overseas. I'd trust them more than I would you ... :yes:


I'd say that would fall under Discrimination and would be wrong. It's wrong to do it at an interpersonal level and it is VERY wrong when done at a legislative and Governmental level.

Where have I discriminated ... ?? :scratch:


Yeah, Laws =/= Moral. Apartheid was Law, so was Slavery - does this mean that both of these were just and Moral because they were legal?

Apartheid and slavery are both frowned on in Law (now) in this country. As I recall ... The Maori kept slaves (and ate a few) in past times in THIS country ... and no laws (or their morals apparently) seemed to prevent it at that time. Times have changed I guess ... But I guess some still might need reminding ... :whistle:


Well, so far the New National guy has made some good steps regarding Collins, so we'll see, Baby-steps. Current polling shows ACT to be on the rise and the combination of National/ACT has a greater percentage than Labour/Greens.

Good steps are ok ... but big steps in big shoes ... that he has to fill first. And are needed FIRST. New Zealand FIRST maybe ... ;)


When you omit certain words from what was said, then say you don't see the point....

Tsk tsk.

Nothing was omitted that I believed was relevant to our discussion ... :no:


Still waiting for your point ... :yes:

[TheDemonLord]

Poverty and greed forces me to work. It provides a much better income than a benefit. It's worked (excuse the pun) for me so far ... :yes:

Right. Self Interest is your reason to work. You work because you want to enjoy a certain level of lifestyle. You don't work because the Government forces you to.



I think we might agree that your idea of what morals should be held ... and what views should be held as being "Morally right" ... might differ from mine ... :yes:

Maybe, maybe not - Most of mine stem from the Locke view of Natural (or God Given Rights). There's a certain amount of extrapolation required for some (such as Copyright Law) but as a general rule, anything that traces it's lineage to those principles I believe to be good and Moral.

I'd be interested to know what umbrage you take with that...


Breaking any law should hardly be considered virtuous. Or difficult to do. If it is difficult for you ... you're doing it wrong ... :yes:

Do we not revere Ghandi? Or what about Schindler? Mandela? Rosa Parks? When the law that is being broken is unjust, then civil disobedience IS Virtuous. The key part being Civil.



If it was a slave market. Your owner might get $10 ... Dog food is expensive ... :yes:

Well, the Free Market is what pays my salary, and it's a bit more than $10. So either I'm extremely good at convincing people (and given the amount of discussion where I take the opposing view here, I think we can dispense with that theory :D) or I've got some rather valuable skills.



I would have more faith (excuse the pun) in them than you.

That's dodging the question, because just like COVID someone could point to an objective threat posed by them because of their Beliefs and they could do so using the exact same reasoning used to justify the Vaccine Pass.

No doubt you agree that such a discrimination is wrong - but if you accept the framing of the argument for the Vaccine pass, you cannot do so on the same logical grounds.


Simply because if they had a vaccine pass ... they would be perfectly ENTITLED to be in my business.

That's circular logic, considering the question being posed


And I personally know a large number of Muslims in this country and overseas. I'd trust them more than I would you ... :yes:

I'm sure you do and I'm sure they are all lovely.


Where have I discriminated ... ?? :scratch:

Would you deny someone access to your business based on their personal belief?

This is what it comes down to: If the answer is No, then you have to extend that to people who are both Anti-Vaxx or people who simply believe that Vaccine Passports are wrong.

If the answer is Yes, then you couldn't complain when someone using that same logic turns around and says 'Get out of my shop, we don't serve your kind in here'



Apartheid and slavery are both frowned on in Law (now) in this country. As I recall ... The Maori kept slaves (and ate a few) in past times in THIS country ... and no laws (or their morals apparently) seemed to prevent it at that time. Times have changed I guess ... But I guess some still might need reminding ... :whistle:

Sure, Slavery was a human universal, until the British stopped it. They stopped it based on the same principles that I oppose Vaccine Passports. The fact that we've legalized discrimination in this country shows that times haven't changed all that much...

One claimed existential threat, one socialist dictator and people suddenly forget all about others Rights and Freedoms and think the Crocadile won't eat them...


Good steps are ok ... but big steps in big shoes ... that he has to fill first. And are needed FIRST. New Zealand FIRST maybe ... ;)

They are dead. The siding with Jacinda killed them and the fact they betrayed their Voterbase on a number of key issues has guaranteed they will never be resurrected.





Nothing was omitted that I believed was relevant to our discussion ... :no:

Still waiting for your point ... :yes:

Okay then -
Do you disagree with the principle of Bodily Autonomy?
Do you think that someone other than you has the right to demand you do something with your body that you don't want to do?
Do you think that it is right to treat people differently based on a perceived threat that their personal views might entail?

I believe bodily autonomy to be one of the highest principles, I don't think that anyone should be able to make anyone else put something in their body that they have not consented to and I think any discrimination - no matter how well intentioned or what justification is given, is wrong.

[Berries]

Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?
The wife says yes.

[TheDemonLord]

The wife says yes.

Well, that's certainly one definition of Slavery....

[FJRider]

Right. Self Interest is your reason to work. You work because you want to enjoy a certain level of lifestyle. You don't work because the Government forces you to.

It is in my own best interest to work. And I enjoy my job.


Maybe, maybe not - Most of mine stem from the Locke view of Natural (or God Given Rights). There's a certain amount of extrapolation required for some (such as Copyright Law) but as a general rule, anything that traces it's lineage to those principles I believe to be good and Moral.

1. I can't recall any god giving me anything. You must be special. You believe a god gave you these rights ... ?? (I do not)

2. You believe in a god ?? The god that gave you these "Rights" ... ?? (I do not)

3. "General Rules" usually have exceptions. Do you believe your "General Rule" does NOT have exceptions ... ?? (I do not)

4. YOU believe you are good and Moral ... ?? (I do not)

5. And with your (above) beliefs ... you expect people to take you seriously ... ?? REALLY ...?? (I do not)


I'd be interested to know what umbrage you take with that...

See above ...


Do we not revere Ghandi? Or what about Schindler? Mandela? Rosa Parks? When the law that is being broken is unjust, then civil disobedience IS Virtuous. The key part being Civil.

And what is their opinion of the current COVID situation here in New .. ??


Well, the Free Market is what pays my salary, and it's a bit more than $10. So either I'm extremely good at convincing people (and given the amount of discussion where I take the opposing view here, I think we can dispense with that theory :D) or I've got some rather valuable skills.

My Employer pays my salary. And it too is a bit more than $10. Still waiting for your point.


That's dodging the question, because just like COVID someone could point to an objective threat posed by them because of their Beliefs and they could do so using the exact same reasoning used to justify the Vaccine Pass.

"THEM" ... ??? You "moral" racist prick.

They use the Covid Pass for the same reasons YOU and I do. To get a meal and a coffee.


No doubt you agree that such a discrimination is wrong - but if you accept the framing of the argument for the Vaccine pass, you cannot do so on the same logical grounds.

Not if the discrimination is against fat useless Islamophobic pricks like you.


That's circular logic, considering the question being posed

Your "Circular Logic" has you going around in circles ... :shifty:

The logic is they HAVE a Covid Pass and can enter businesses legally. And for the same reasons you and I have ... the right to enter any business requiring a Pass to be (at least) shown or scanned.


I'm sure you do and I'm sure they are all lovely.

I do trust the one's I know. But they're not all 'Lovely". A few are fat useless pricks like you. And most of them have seen a reality ... VERY much worse than YOU will EVER see in New Zealand.


Would you deny someone access to your business based on their personal belief?

Businesses require customers. If they had a legal Covid pass to enter my business ... why should I question them on their beliefs ..??

If you had a Covid pass ... I'd probably let you in to.

Your point is ... ??


This is what it comes down to: If the answer is No, then you have to extend that to people who are both Anti-Vaxx or people who simply believe that Vaccine Passports are wrong.

I would allow them access IF they had a LEGAL current Covid Pass. As they are then legally allowed to do.


If the answer is Yes, then you couldn't complain when someone using that same logic turns around and says 'Get out of my shop, we don't serve your kind in here'

See above ... you fat useless racist prick.


Sure, Slavery was a human universal, until the British stopped it. They stopped it based on the same principles that I oppose Vaccine Passports. The fact that we've legalized discrimination in this country shows that times haven't changed all that much...

No ... They stopped it on the grounds of the cruelty and suffering inflicted on the slaves ... and the basic principal of it being Mans inhumanity to man. And there was a great deal of opposition (by slave owners ... of which were many) ... not much different to those protesting nowadays.


One claimed existential threat, one socialist dictator and people suddenly forget all about others Rights and Freedoms and think the Crocadile won't eat them...

Claimed .. ??? check out the current Covid death toll in NZ. The worldwide one might take some believing ... but as you believe in god and your own morals ... you'd probably believe it was a fairy tale.

Go figure.

And get spellcheck (or an education). It's spelt Crocodile.


They are dead. The siding with Jacinda killed them and the fact they betrayed their Voterbase on a number of key issues has guaranteed they will never be resurrected.

They might be a better choice than National. The voter base that would support them have short memories.


Okay then -
Do you disagree with the principle of Bodily Autonomy?
Do you think that someone other than you has the right to demand you do something with your body that you don't want to do?
Do you think that it is right to treat people differently based on a perceived threat that their personal views might entail?

I agreed to vaccinations as I saw it being in MY best interest to do so. As did YOU. And most of those not vaccinated DO believe Covid IS a threat. They either object to the compulsion to get vaccinated ... or don't trust the vaccines.


I believe bodily autonomy to be one of the highest principles, I don't think that anyone should be able to make anyone else put something in their body that they have not consented to and I think any discrimination - no matter how well intentioned or what justification is given, is wrong.

You (as I am) are entitled to our opinions (one of the rights your god gave you) ... and not having any or all vaccinations ... has not been made illegal.