Waka Kotahi - dont have a clue

[pete376403]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465905/speed-limit-changes-could-hit-all-hawke-s-bay-highways

At least when Muldoon bought in the 80k limit (50mph in the old money) it was in response to a fuel crisis. This from Wanker Kotahi is just a knee jerk to a select bunch of mainly young idiot males offing themselves. The same idiots who will ignore speed limits anyway.

[Dadpole]

Also a product of incompetent drivers across the age range. While the powers-that-be are content to avoid any driver training and only focus on 'Speed Kills' the deaths/injuries will only be reduced by slowing everybody down to match the skill level of the average car-steerer.

[Navy Boy]

Yep - Lowest Common Denominator thinking strikes again... :no:

[george formby]

This slower is better thinking is really beginning to boil my piss.

Quite stealthily a lot of my local roads have been reduced to 80kmh and cheese cutters and armco have sprung up in weird places.

Totally pointless. Vehicles end up in a caravan and tempers fray. I've seen more bad decisions by drivers since the limits were lowered than I ever saw before.

What a load of arse!

[Navy Boy]

The frustration for me is the total ignoring of the second and third order effects. Between Renwick and Nelson NZTA have lowered the limits along all of SH6 to varying degrees with a lot of it now 90 or 80Km/hr.

What happens is that people follow, quite often too closely, but don't bother to overtake as the caravan/truck/trailer in front of them is close to 80 or 90 so they figure that there's simply no point. This then brings about a soporific effect of people just following my leader, switching off and doing daft acts of driving.

To be fair it's not entirely their fault - They are simply conforming to a fundamentally flawed limit and therefore human nature dictates that they become bored and switch their thinking to something other than their driving. In other words a lack of stimulation actually makes things worse.

If you're on a bike it's often quite dangerous to try and make progress in such situations. Doubtless if the accident rate drops following the limit reduction NZTA will tell anyone who'll listen that the measures have worked. If not then they'll keep quiet, much like they have with the couple of 110km/hr areas on the North Island which haven't resulted in the 'End of the World as we know it' scenario predicted by some.

:weird:

[george formby]

The frustration for me is the total ignoring of the second and third order effects. Between Renwick and Nelson NZTA have lowered the limits along all of SH6 to varying degrees with a lot of it now 90 or 80Km/hr.

What happens is that people follow, quite often too closely, but don't bother to overtake as the caravan/truck/trailer in front of them is close to 80 or 90 so they figure that there's simply no point. This then brings about a soporific effect of people just following my leader, switching off and doing daft acts of driving.

To be fair it's not entirely their fault - They are simply conforming to a fundamentally flawed limit and therefore human nature dictates that they become bored and switch their thinking to something other than their driving. In other words a lack of stimulation actually makes things worse.

If you're on a bike it's often quite dangerous to try and make progress in such situations. Doubtless if the accident rate drops following the limit reduction NZTA will tell anyone who'll listen that the measures have worked. If not then they'll keep quiet, much like they have with the couple of 110km/hr areas on the North Island which haven't resulted in the 'End of the World as we know it' scenario predicted by some.

:weird:

Good point.

Pretty sure this has been covered on KB ad infinitum.

Back in the day Herr Bangerman wanted a blanket horsepower limit on bikes in the EU. Maggie Thatcher produced some UK research and told him to stick to wurst legislation.

The evidence she used showed that motorcyclists travelling at a decent speed had far better awareness, reaction times and anticipation than road users diligently traveling at slower speeds.

This has been born out by research from fighter pilots and racers.

As to how the statistics will be used is standard, usual thing about road toll. Actual comparisons of accident rates seem to be irrelevant, just the death toll.

I suspect that a lower toll on some slowed roads is down to law abiding drivers having slightly more time to react to the fuckwits, if they are still awake.

I guess that's a win, bitter tasting but a win.

[rastuscat]

The evidence she used showed that motorcyclists travelling at a decent speed had far better awareness, reaction times and anticipation than road users diligently traveling at slower speeds.

This has been born out by research from fighter pilots and racers.

Not a very relevant comparison. Racers and fighter pilots tend to be the higher end of the skills matrix.

It never fails to amuse me that we rage on here about how rubbish the general driving standard in the country is, oh and let's let those crap drivers continue to make their mistakes at higher speeds.

[Navy Boy]

Not a very relevant comparison. Racers and fighter pilots tend to be the higher end of the skills matrix.

It never fails to amuse me that we rage on here about how rubbish the general driving standard in the country is, oh and let's let those crap drivers continue to make their mistakes at higher speeds.

Now, now Rastus - Stop stirring. You know full well that's not what we are saying here...

We know that we all have something to learn. Riding/Driving is a perishable skill which needs regular topping up else it withers on the vine. Besides, this isn't just about rubbish driving standards but more about how a lower limit does nothing to help rectify those standards. I agree that pilots and others are not really valid comparisons but the overall point is entirely valid. That is below a certain threshold people feel safe, secure and comfortable and therefore switch off. Surely we should be doing more to prevent people from switching off, not making it easier for them to do so. ;)

[Navy Boy]

I will also add that I actually see some merit in the NZTA's current 'Road to Zero' ad campaign. That is that accidents are down to a number of factors and that a number of aspects form the whole picture.

Whilst I think it is a little misguided - We will never achieve a zero road toll so it always will remain an aspiration - I do applaud the thinking that has moved us away from the binary 'Speed kills' thinking which has been so prevalent thus far.

It's funny how when I ride my Royal Enfield Bullet, with its 28Bhp, that I end up enjoying it just as much as a blat on the Speed Triple with its 133Bhp. For different reasons of course but it does demonstrate that there's more to this biking lark than simple 'Power' (Said with a Jeremy Clarkson accent for best effect).

Perhaps it's an age thing??? :scooter:

[Navy Boy]

It seems that Greg Murphy agrees:

https://www.autocar.co.nz/greg-murphy-road-to-zero-is-laughable-and-doesnt-focus-on-the-real-issues/

And he's know a thing or two about the topic. :yes:

[rastuscat]

It seems that Greg Murphy agrees:

https://www.autocar.co.nz/greg-murphy-road-to-zero-is-laughable-and-doesnt-focus-on-the-real-issues/

And he's know a thing or two about the topic. :yes:

I've met GM a couple of times, and it's fair to say that I don't agree with him on much.

Inevitably he sees driver training as the golden bullet, but that's because he works in driver training.

He is anti cycling, anti electric vehicles, basically anti anything that doesn't burn lots and lots of hydro carbons.

That said, training has a place, but only alongside everything else that needs to be done. It's a holistic solution needed, not just one mans hobby horse.

[F5 Dave]

Electric Hobby Horse, or Carrot powered? 🥕

[rastuscat]

I will also add that I actually see some merit in the NZTA's current 'Road to Zero' ad campaign.

Here's that video explaining the concept of zero.

https://youtu.be/k2tOye9DKdQ

[Navy Boy]

Here's that video explaining the concept of zero.

https://youtu.be/k2tOye9DKdQ

Mmm... Nothing like a good pre-scripted and deliberately posed video to try and support your cause. I'm not convinced I'm afraid as this implies that if you're not in agreement with what they are doing then you're clearly happy with people dying - Which none of us are. In fact it's something of an insult to your intelligence to even suggest that's the case.

What I like about the TV ad campaign thus far is that it doesn't just focus on one thing/aspect - It points out that there are a number of factors involved.

Driver training on its own isn't the panacea, I agree. However GM makes a good point that just trying to implement more and more draconian limts isn't going to fix the problem. In fact, as this last Easter/ANZAC period sadly proved, the toll isn't going down. Therefore basic logic dictates that the powers-that-be need to do something different - That's if driving the toll numbers down is what we're all after.

:msn-wink:

[Berries]

In fact, as this last Easter/ANZAC period sadly proved, the toll isn't going down. Therefore basic logic dictates that the powers-that-be need to do something different - That's if driving the toll numbers down is what we're all after.
For a start we should be open and discuss each fatal crash. Yeah, it hits the local paper for a couple of days or if it is a big one it might go national and then it's gone. Two or three years down the line the coroner may say something that piques the interest of the media but generally not. So no lessons learnt.

There are those genuinely sad incidents out there where someone makes an honest mistake or error of judgement leading to the inevitable - we could all learn from them. But then there are way too many out there where the driver is immune to all road safety messages, you know, half pissed, had a smoke, can't be arsed with the seat belt and doing 50 over the limit. That is why Road to Zero is nothing but happy clappy words not based in reality.

The lesson that should be taken from the latest advert is don't swerve for possums.

[James Deuce]

For a start we should be open and discuss each fatal crash. Yeah, it hits the local paper for a couple of days or if it is a big one it might go national and then it's gone. Two or three years down the line the coroner may say something that piques the interest of the media but generally not. So no lessons learnt.

There are those genuinely sad incidents out there where someone makes an honest mistake or error of judgement leading to the inevitable - we could all learn from them. But then there are way too many out there where the driver is immune to all road safety messages, you know, half pissed, had a smoke, can't be arsed with the seat belt and doing 50 over the limit. That is why Road to Zero is nothing but happy clappy words not based in reality.

The lesson that should be taken from the latest advert is don't swerve for possums.

It also ignores the number of drivers straight up dying due to a medical condition. You can't ever tune those out of road deaths. The meat puppet at the bars or behind the wheel inevitably fails because its not infallible. Aiming for perfect always generates a perfect failure to achieve the target.

[F5 Dave]

I find the term meat puppet offensive . I don't like the implication something is controlling me.

I prefer Meatbag.

https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/252648-futurama

[pritch]

It also ignores the number of drivers straight up dying due to a medical condition. You can't ever tune those out of road deaths. The meat puppet at the bars or behind the wheel inevitably fails because its not infallible. Aiming for perfect always generates a perfect failure to achieve the target.

That reminds me, although I've mentioned it before but it was a particularly dim statement by the police.

Clear road, fine weather, nice day. Two cars have a head on. Police say they are mystified. Both drivers are women, one in her late eighties the other one over ninety.
But it's a mystery?

Perhaps it's not just the drivers who need more training.

[R650R]

What most people are missing with the “road to zero” and “zero carbon” is the rest of the sentence that the elite and govts left out.
What they really meant to say was zero deaths from private automobile transport, they can’t have the slaves driving themselves on and off the plantation.
Zero emissions equal zero movements.... aka living in Japan style coffin apartment blocks in smart cities and walking or public transport to work.
Hawkes bay will be destroyed economically if this goes ahead. And so will likes of Taranaki and the Far north towns if this goes ahead. We are already short on capacity and this will only further starve transport resources as drivers run out of hours with slower speed limits. Whether or not it’s by design or the peculiarity of our geography but most of tbectruck trips from out lying provincial towns and cities are only just in reach of return journeys of major hubs.

[rastuscat]

I guess the question is how many deaths are we okay with.

[Berries]

350.

And no need to get 350 of my friends and family around like the old TAIC advert, I am just trying to inject some reality into all of this based on our road network, our vehicle fleet, and what seems like pretty piss poor driver education.

[onearmedbandit]

I guess the question is how many deaths are we okay with.

I think most people would agree that ideally there would be no deaths on the road. But with what we have currently (imperfect people in control) that really isn't possible, even if only for medical events. The stated goal however is to achieve zero road toll deaths by 2050. That will only happen with a huge shift from what we have today.

I get the argument though. I remember as a very green car salesman arguing the point with the owner of the company I worked for when he said 'everyone who comes on the yard is a customer'. I stated how this wasn't so, that we have regulars that are known tyre kickers etc. I'll never forget the look he gave me and I pondered that later that evening. It didn't take long for it to dawn on me he knew not every person was a buyer, but to treat them like they were. Doing that meant I had a greater chance of selling to them rather than dismissing the target as impossible before even trying.

However, in this instance while the aspiration is nice are we going to become more and more restricted? How far will we see things go until we get there? 30kmh open road speed limits? Continuous media barriers? Driver-less cars? A shift from driving being something to be enjoyed to merely a means of getting from a to b? Is it selfish to want to enjoy something even though the costs may be a few deaths? And if so where do we stop with that mind set? People die going on bush walks too. Do we stop those too?

[pete376403]

If there is a person or a group of people within W K who are pushing this unachievable target all it means is, (for them anyway) they have a job for as long as they want. People die no matter what they do, or even if they do nothing.

[pritch]

A near miss from my trip north from Wairarapa yesterday. (Short version.)

There were two lanes for northbound traffic. A truck in the right of the two lanes indicated that he was turning off on a side road to the right. The guy behind him realising that he will have to stop, and not wanting the inconvenience, and without checking, swung on the wheel to change to the left lane. The lane that had four cars in it.

Maximum braking effort by all concerned - including the fuckwit. There were no colisions but there was very little space between any of the cars when they stopped.

One moment soporphic legal speed cruise. Nekminute...

[James Deuce]

I guess the question is how many deaths are we okay with.

If COVID is anything to go by, as many as it takes to get the tourism and hospitality sectors going again, both of whom failed completely to adapt to a change in circumstance over the last couple of years. Individuals are not important in an economy. All that matters is the bottom line and it is arguable that the positive economics of road deaths outweigh the savings, despite the rhetoric of how much cost the Government assigns to each road death. There are whole industries that have a positive benefit from road deaths.

[Berries]

One moment soporphic legal speed cruise. Nekminute...

Assuming this was in a passing lane if you were at the legal cruise speed? Allowing right turns from a passing lane is idiotic but there are loads of them about and there will never be the money to install median barrier or roundabouts to get rid of them. Reality again.

[F5 Dave]

If COVID is anything to go by, as many as it takes to get the tourism and hospitality sectors going again, both of whom failed completely to adapt to a change in circumstance over the last couple of years. Individuals are not important in an economy. All that matters is the bottom line and it is arguable that the positive economics of road deaths outweigh the savings, despite the rhetoric of how much cost the Government assigns to each road death. There are whole industries that have a positive benefits from road deaths.

Not to mention the positive benefits to climate change. Less people, less pollution, less emissions.

[Navy Boy]

I guess the question is how many deaths are we okay with.

Not quite Rastus - Most, if not all, of us are not 'OK' with a certain number of deaths. Despite NZTA's best efforts to reduce this to a simple question of 'How many people are you happy to have die?' this is far more wide-reaching that that.

This smacks of a 'You're with us or against us.' mentality which is, frankly, unhelpful and not constructive.

Stop stirring... You're enjoying this aren't you? :yes:

[R650R]

I guess the question is how many deaths are we okay with.

Quite a lot....

About 35,000 people die every year in NZ from all causes be they natural, accidents or murder.
Within that pool the road toll is almost statistically irrelevant at about one percent, and along with it covid. It’s a horrible thing to say out loud but it’s the facts.
The forestry industry is still killing workers at an unacceptable Rate compared to other industries but we all want cheap timber to build our houses with.
We’re killing our fittest and bravest men again in another world war over lines on a map....
The road toll makes for great tv (watching an obese person die of some form of cancer doesn’t make for breaking news) and everyone can relate to it and engage in a conversation about it so it’s always going to be a popular issue that people think we can fix.
But you can’t fix inattention/fatigue/incompetence without a massive restriction on free movement.

[James Deuce]

Quite a lot....

About 35,000 people die every year in NZ from all causes be they natural, accidents or murder.
Within that pool the road toll is almost statistically irrelevant at about one percent, and along with it covid. It’s a horrible thing to say out loud but it’s the facts.
The forestry industry is still killing workers at an unacceptable Rate compared to other industries but we all want cheap timber to build our houses with.
We’re killing our fittest and bravest men again in another world war over lines on a map....
The road toll makes for great tv (watching an obese person die of some form of cancer doesn’t make for breaking news) and everyone can relate to it and engage in a conversation about it so it’s always going to be a popular issue that people think we can fix.
But you can’t fix inattention/fatigue/incompetence without a massive restriction on free movement.But, but, you're making sense!
https://media0.giphy.com/media/U1aN4HTfJ2SmgB2BBK/giphy.gif

[Berries]

But, but, you're making sense!
Well, I hate to play the devils advocate but I am not so sure.

We all know the forestry industry is dangerous. It's a job that most of us don't participate in so I am pretty sure I won't die in a logging incident. Pretty sure I won't murder anyone or indeed be murdered either and as I don't know which end of the gun is which I won't be fighting in the Ukraine anytime soon. Perhaps I will make it to a grand old age or my past will catch up with me and I will die an early death due to some self inflicted medical reason. The most dangerous thing I do these days is share the road with all you pricks.

I agree that you can't fix "inattention/fatigue/incompetence" without a massive effort, but it could be fixed without a general restriction on free movement if everyone just took a step back and looked at things a bit more critically. Pretty sure nobody actually wants to die in a crash, it can be quite a traumatic way to shuffle off to the cemetery, but too many people ride/drive without giving the consequences much thought. Show them the consequences, explain the physics and eventually, perhaps, we will all be on the same page. At the moment it is very much them and us and it is only going to get worse as the screws are turned on speed limits across the country, particularly if that appears to be the extent of what is being done on the Road to Zero.

[rastuscat]

We all expect road deaths to happen. They are a fact, they happen.

But we each think it wont happen to us.

If we each thought it might happen to us, perhaps Vision Zero would be an easier sell, as people would see a reason to change their behaviour.

But as long as few, if any, think it might happen to them, few, if any, see a reason to change their driving behaviour.

Cheers, optimism bias. You bastard.

[pritch]

We all expect road deaths to happen. They are a fact, they happen.

But we each think it wont happen to us.

If we each thought it might happen to us, perhaps Vision Zero would be an easier sell, as people would see a reason to change their behaviour.

But as long as few, if any, think it might happen to them, few, if any, see a reason to change their driving behaviour.

Cheers, optimism bias. You bastard.


That would probably apply to the LCD type motorists. It should not apply to motorcyclists. We all know people who have been seriously injured or died. Some through no fault of their own, others who perhaps because of a momentary lapse contributed to their own demise.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls...

[Berries]

You should watch the latest dashcam video R666 posted for some motorcyclists who don't think that way.

And this one. (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300574625/video-shows-motorcyclists-flip-over-suv-after-crash-on-aucklands-north-shore)

Only just noticed he was indicating left at the same time. Always best to keep them guessing when you ride like a twat.

And let me just put the gospel here as well -

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QbihvZUmbSU" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pritch]

You should watch the latest dashcam video R666 posted for some motorcyclists who don't think that way.

And this one. (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300574625/video-shows-motorcyclists-flip-over-suv-after-crash-on-aucklands-north-shore)

Only just noticed he was indicating left at the same time. Always best to keep them guessing when you ride like a twat.



I used the word "should." There's one born every minute.

[pete376403]

We all expect road deaths to happen. They are a fact, they happen.

But we each think it wont happen to us..

I completely expect it to happen to me, especially when out on the bike. So I take every precaution I can. So far that course of action has worked, one day it might not. Possibly the difference between riding and driving is, that when on the bike, a degree of concentration is required or the bike falls over, whereas the car is pretty stable and contains a myriad of distractions that the operator can amuse him/her self with while ignoring the main task. Further to that, even the most clapped out Jap import shitbox driven by todays yoof is capable of speeds that the likes of me, who learned to drive in humber 10 / ford prefect and the like, could only dream of when I was at that time of life when mortality was an unknown concept

[Laava]

You cannot legislate to achieve zero deaths, not for want of trying, it is just the people puzzle.
To expect everyone to not speed, wear seatbelts, not use cellphones and drive using common sense, courtesy and concentration is so far removed from reality it is almost fruitless trying. Here in the far north, everytime I go up to doubtless bay there is another crashed/burnt out wreck on the side of the road. Sitting in a cafe in mangonui yesterday it would not be exaggerating to say only half the people driving past are wearing their seatbelts. And you can be sure it is no-one in the car incl kids. And half of these are quite clearly not roadworthy cars. The std of driving up there is prob the worst I have seen anywhere in NZ. The cops are few and far between and genuinely have better things to do for the most part. I have never seen a vehicle checkpoint up there. Prob cos they dont have the manpower to process all the people they would have to prevent from driving on. It's a bit depressing tbh but sadly I am sure there are other places in NZ just as bad.

[rastuscat]

You should watch the latest dashcam video R666 posted for some motorcyclists who don't think that way.

And this one. (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300574625/video-shows-motorcyclists-flip-over-suv-after-crash-on-aucklands-north-shore)

Only just noticed he was indicating left at the same time. Always best to keep them guessing when you ride like a twat.



That crash movement has featured in my Ride Forever courses since I started 6 years ago. I attended so many of those crashes when in a blue suit it was just beyond a joke.

It happens approximately every month in Chch, someone overtaking a left turning vehicle getting nailed by someone coming out of that side road.

Damn, some things are so predictable, surely we can as riders anticipate them, and thus avoid them.

[onearmedbandit]

Damn, some things are so predictable, surely we can as riders anticipate them, and thus avoid them.

Some humans do, some don't. I didn't say 'riders' on purpose, because it's human behaviour, not rider specific. It's how we address that type of human behaviour that is the issue.

[R650R]

That crash movement has featured in my Ride Forever courses since I started 6 years ago. I attended so many of those crashes when in a blue suit it was just beyond a joke.

It happens approximately every month in Chch, someone overtaking a left turning vehicle getting nailed by someone coming out of that side road.

Damn, some things are so predictable, surely we can as riders anticipate them, and thus avoid them.

I think the problem is driver licensing is rule centric rather than consequence focused. We give a person a licence if they demonstrate knowledge of the rules.
Sometimes I’m involved teaching people how to use equipment that can kill them. Part one is these are the things you must do every time or you never get to do anything ever again, being dead and all.
My favourite safety sign is an entrapment style stick person logo with the words this machine can kill you and it will hurt lots the entire time you are dying.

Just imagine a driver test where you had to estimate the response time of an ambulance (and hence pain relief) to location x. How long have you to live with major arterial bleed. Bit like those silly new acc home injury ads where they have kinda messed up the delivery of the message a bit

[Gremlin]

I had a near miss near Clevedon last year. NZTA had already been through, dropped West Rd from 100kph to 80kph a while ago, now the "dangerous" section was 60kph. So probably in their mind, much safer.
I'm starting the climb up the hill from Clevedon, thought about it, yeah OK, I'll drop to 70kph indicated, so I'm mid 60s, crawling along.
A car comes around the corner up ahead (it's blind from my side, first decent right hander for me), and runs over the centre line in front of me.

So because I'd slowed down, I was in a different place on the road and no kissy kissy with the car... but this is simply pure luck, he could have been later, I could have been earlier. Did lowering the limit to 60kph make a tangible difference there? Nope...

It's lovely for paper pushers to have this goal of zero deaths... they can barely lower the deaths per year in what, a decade or more, and in 25 odd years they want 300+ to zero? I guess they put zero because no-one has the guts to say incidents happen, we'd be happy at (random number) 100, giving us a better per capita rate than equivalent countries? You literally have people that struggle to steer a car (or burst into tears when it rains - testing officer told me of his own experience), and you expect the absolute best possible outcome? :lol:

[Berries]

Damn, some things are so predictable, surely we can as riders anticipate them, and thus avoid them.
I would not use the royal we for that twat, he was not anticipating anything. By all means take yourself out but your pillion as well?

Should have his class 6 revoked, if he had one.

[rastuscat]

I would not use the royal we for that twat, he was not anticipating anything. By all means take yourself out but your pillion as well?

Should have his class 6 revoked, if he had one.

Yes, the gene pool needs to have that one removed. Darwinism in action.

[SaferRides]

My 5c. Zero deaths is so obviously unattainable that most people wll just switch off. I have.

It's scary to see how much the road toll has increased this year. 128 to the end of April, compared to 106 last year.



Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

[jellywrestler]

My 5c. Zero deaths is so obviously unattainable that most people wll just switch off. I have.

It's scary to see how much the road toll has increased this year. 128 to the end of April, compared to 106 last year.



Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

foreigners, never us of course

[pete376403]

My 5c. Zero deaths is so obviously unattainable that most people wll just switch off. I have.

It's scary to see how much the road toll has increased this year. 128 to the end of April, compared to 106 last year. Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

Last year was an outlier, given that a lot of the country was locked down. I know I did a lot less driving / riding. Regardless of the reason, the police/ WK will claim credit, funny how they do not accept the blame when it goes the other way.
Maybe the upswing is due to releasing that pent up urge to go somewhere.

[Berries]

Maybe the upswing is due to releasing that pent up urge to go somewhere.
One crash in however long the level 1 lockdown was last year in Southland, five crashes in the first four days after we went to level 2. You could be on to something.

Last year was not much of an outlier overall though, we have simply dropped back to where we were five years ago after a blip or two in 2017 and 2018. This is kind of why I think we have plateaued and unless there are major changes this is where we are going to sit for the foreseeable future.

[SaferRides]

Last year was an outlier, given that a lot of the country was locked down. I know I did a lot less driving / riding. Regardless of the reason, the police/ WK will claim credit, funny how they do not accept the blame when it goes the other way.
Maybe the upswing is due to releasing that pent up urge to go somewhere.The only lockdowns in the first 4 months of 2021 were in Auckland for two brief periods. This year to date is tracking almost the same as 2018, which was the highest for a long time.

I don't know what the answer is, but I expect it will need a range of measures. I suspect what hasn't been grasped yet is that speed is a factor in many accidents, but is rarely the primary cause. In fact, the message that slower is safer may be counterproductive as drivers who drive slower may think that makes them safe.


Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

[onearmedbandit]

In fact, the message that slower is safer may be counterproductive as drivers who drive slower may think that makes them safe.



I'd wager the house on that being true.

[James Deuce]

I'd wager the house on that being true.
Just look at the death toll in the 70s when the speed limit was 80kph.

[Gremlin]

Regardless of the reason, the police/ WK will claim credit, funny how they do not accept the blame when it goes the other way.
Ex-fucking-zactly.

After the first weekend with reduced tolerance on a public holiday and there was a drop in deaths, oh, how they crowed about their magnificent success. It's one weekend? A statistical blip in the decades of comparisons. Sure enough, more weekends, higher death tolls... silence (or if any response, a head scratch). Now we can look back with years of data... they're pretty much statistical variations, and you can put any number of other reasons on it (continuing safety in cars, NCAP increasing the requirements to get 5 stars etc)

But hey, keep focussing on speed... It's always a factor, if a vehicle was doing 0kph at the time of impact... is a factor.

[Pokitren]

Just look at the death toll in the 70s when the speed limit was 80kph.

I'd like to see those statistics. Can you tell me where I can look? In general, I agree that the speed limit should affect the number of deaths.

[James Deuce]

I'd like to see those statistics. Can you tell me where I can look? In general, I agree that the speed limit should affect the number of deaths.
Really not that hard to find. Check road deaths between 1973 and 1985 when the open road speed limit was 80kph. Then look at how they've fallen off a cliff since 2000 while the population grew rapidly including them damn immigrunts and tourists who can't drive.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/statistics-and-insights/safety-road-deaths/death-on-nz-roads-since-1921/

[BMWST?]

A near miss from my trip north from Wairarapa yesterday. (Short version.)

There were two lanes for northbound traffic. A truck in the right of the two lanes indicated that he was turning off on a side road to the right. The guy behind him realising that he will have to stop, and not wanting the inconvenience, and without checking, swung on the wheel to change to the left lane. The lane that had four cars in it.

Maximum braking effort by all concerned - including the fuckwit. There were no colisions but there was very little space between any of the cars when they stopped.

One moment soporphic legal speed cruise. Nekminute...
many many people seem to think that they have to right to use the whole road for their puorposes. See it every day,people overtake cyclists etc wihout any regard for the actual situation.

[F5 Dave]

Geez down the road, Boi racer in matt black car cuts corner. Like 3/4 on wrong side of road at a fair clip. No problem until someone pulls out of sidestreet. Just missed.

That doesn't usually happen on this level. . . . Fiksake.

[onearmedbandit]

many many people seem to think that they have to right to use the whole road for their puorposes. See it every day,people overtake cyclists etc wihout any regard for the actual situation.

Coming back from the airport one afternoon on Memorial Ave (four lanes separated by a median, 50kmh zone) recently I was in the right hand lane with a police car behind me. In the left lane and maybe 1 second ahead of me was a courier van with a bus right in front of him. I noticed the bus driver put on his indicator to stop and prepared myself for the inevitable lane swerve from the van driver. Which he duly performed, missing my car narrowly as I braked and moved to the right to avoid him. Also noticing him was the occupants of the aforementioned police car. I did chortle to myself as I drove while he was receiving some roadside education.

[rastuscat]

I did chortle to myself as I drove while he was receiving some roadside education.

I still smile when I recall the roadside education we shared in 2005 :)

[onearmedbandit]

I still smile when I recall the roadside education we shared in 2005 :)

Hahaha yes same. I still remember your first words to me, "Pull over past the lights, I don't want a race". That was a good day.

[jellywrestler]

Hahaha yes same. I still remember your first words to me, "Pull over past the lights, I don't want a race". That was a good day.

sounds like you got a right swipe.

[sunhuntin]

That crash movement has featured in my Ride Forever courses since I started 6 years ago. I attended so many of those crashes when in a blue suit it was just beyond a joke.

It happens approximately every month in Chch, someone overtaking a left turning vehicle getting nailed by someone coming out of that side road.

Damn, some things are so predictable, surely we can as riders anticipate them, and thus avoid them.

theres an intersection here just outside waitara that is notorious for it. after two near misses in two days from cars pulling out, i now take the left turn and avoid the whole intersection.

also had an interesting event a few years ago just past that intersection. at the time, the speed limit was still 100, and a nice downhill before a corner into town. i came over the brow of the hill, and next thing i know all the cars in front are jamming on their brakes. i hit mine and got a bit locked up but got it sorted out ok... bloody tractor crawling along, unable to be seen due to the corners on the hill.

[Berries]

Slow down Rossi.

[pritch]

theres an intersection here just outside waitara that is notorious for it. after two near misses in two days from cars pulling out, i now take the left turn and avoid the whole intersection.

also had an interesting event a few years ago just past that intersection. at the time, the speed limit was still 100, and a nice downhill before a corner into town. i came over the brow of the hill, and next thing i know all the cars in front are jamming on their brakes. i hit mine and got a bit locked up but got it sorted out ok... bloody tractor crawling along, unable to be seen due to the corners on the hill.

Somebody was killed there a year or three back. Came of the brow of the hill and emailed themselves on the spikes if some agricultural machine.

Oh, and welcome back. Was that you used to work at the gas station on the bend before you decend the hill into Wanganui?

[sunhuntin]

Somebody was killed there a year or three back. Came of the brow of the hill and emailed themselves on the spikes if some agricultural machine.

Oh, and welcome back. Was that you used to work at the gas station on the bend before you decend the hill into Wanganui?

long memory... i worked the bp by the roundabout on the way through wanganui. not the big one thats there opposite the pool, but the little one up furthur.

i hadnt heard about that, must have been before i moved up here. there was a woman killed in her car along there several years ago. someone failed to give way, not sure who.

[SaferRides]

There's some dodgy intersections on the road from Waitara into New Plymouth. I expect sunstrike at certain times of the year doesn't help either.

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[roogazza]

Wacka koki ??? is that like NZTA ? New Zealand Transport Authority . <_< :bleh:

[Berries]

Wacka koki ??? is that like NZTA ? New Zealand Transport Authority . <_< :bleh:
Get with the programme -

[roogazza]

Get with the programme -

Lol , my excuse is it's friday (windup day !)..

I'm hoping a change of Govt next year will have us reverting to NZTA and an English speaking Country ?

Happy riding !

[SaferRides]

Lol , my excuse is it's friday (windup day !)..

I'm hoping a change of Govt next year will have us reverting to NZTA and an English speaking Country ?

Happy riding !You're going to be disappointed. And here's the official explanation of the name:

'Waka' means 'vessel' and 'kotahi' means 'one' so our Māori name conveys the concept of 'travelling together as one' and embraces integration, affordability, safety, responsiveness and sustainability. The Waka Kotahi logo was inspired by the concept of life's pathways.

I shall make no comment!

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[R650R]

Lol , my excuse is it's friday (windup day !)..

I'm hoping a change of Govt next year will have us reverting to NZTA and an English speaking Country ?

Happy riding !

No they will leave as is so woke mob have nothing to cry about.

Here’s a question for our academics though. Why are the likes of roads and housing depts (agencies that own assets) routinely called by Maori titles now but the media or Jacinda et al never call the police or corrections by their Maori title?????

[HenryDorsetCase]

Lol , my excuse is it's friday (windup day !)..

I'm hoping a change of Govt next year will have us reverting to NZTA and an English speaking Country ?

Happy riding !

Why do you boomers get so bent out of shape about this? Like, who cares, really. I don't speak Te Reo but I fully embrace it because if for no other reason, it makes us and our country unique. You're a racist, I get it,but can't you just, I don't know, shut the hell up?

Actually I bet you dont like "the gays" and vote neshnul. So the trifecta of intolerance.

[Grumph]

Well, I'm an old boomer and i don't mind the dual languages. As far as anything changing under National, it won't. Even the Nats realise this is a bi-racial country officially. They did i think about 80% of the treaty settlements, ie the easy ones.
Whoever is in govt will get the same recommendations from the civil servants. And all parties will take the cheapest option.
Reducing the country's reliance on fossil fuels will continue - as it must.
Whether you like the path we're on or not, we'll continue down it as it's IMO anyway, the right one.

If you don't like it, I'd suggest Australia. They are still arguing about giving the native Aboriginals a voice in govt. Probably the most racist country left in the world.

[F5 Dave]

When I was younger I thought I'm OK with immigrants if they make the effort to fit in. Our country our rules. Learn the fucking language.

Later I realised, the Europeans are the immigrants too. Ok so English is useful for world commerce. By why weren't we taught Maori as well? Happens in most European countries that you learn 2 or 3 languages.

Unless of course we think that European are superior and shouldn't worry ourselves with all that malarkey.

[pete376403]

When I was younger I thought I'm OK with immigrants if they make the effort to fit in. Our country our rules. Learn the fucking language.

Later I realised, the Europeans are the immigrants too. Ok so English is useful for world commerce. By why weren't we taught Maori as well? Happens in most European countries that you learn 2 or 3 languages.

Unless of course we think that European are superior and shouldn't worry ourselves with all that malarkey.

Dunno how old you are but I definitely had Maori language lessons at primary school in the 60's , basic stuff, counting, common words, singing, etc. Didn't bother anyone. However College (no Intermediates in those days) the language choice was French or French. However in todays world the more rational choices would be Spanish and Mandarin.

[Laava]

Back on track for just a mo… in late sept I put in an exemption application or somesuch to be able to register my old project bike. I paid for the application to apply for the exemption form at VTNZ for $109 and made some copies of what I was sending, and sent it thru the post to VTNZ. The bloke at VTNZ told me it would be 10-20 working days. So last week, having heard nothing I decided to email them just to make sure they had me in the system. Immediately got a reply saying they were hoping to be able to respond to me in 25-30 working days. So this morning I rang them just after 8am, went thru the voice menu and sat on the phone for 5min before giving up. Then rang back at 10am, got a different but more hopeful sounding menu that told me I had a wait time of 13-17min. They cut me off 10 min later.
It has occurred to me, while typing this, that working days is unlikely to 5 days per week. Now I feel silly for having such high expectations…
where were we.. oh right, yep spanish, it's a very sexy sounding language and the spanish women are adorable. Mandarin, not so much. But I cannot see a downside to us all, as kiwis, speaking te reo. Kiaora

[SaferRides]

There are two official languages in NZ and neither of them is English.

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[F5 Dave]

Dunno how old you are but I definitely had Maori language lessons at primary school in the 60's , basic stuff, counting, common words, singing, etc. Didn't bother anyone. However College (no Intermediates in those days) the language choice was French or French. However in todays world the more rational choices would be Spanish and Mandarin.
Oh I can still sing A_E_I_O_U, but that doesn't seem to be that useful. We spent a bunch of time in Maori study week rolling up news papers to tight poles. Again I'm not sure what we were doing but it occupied us intently, sadly there was irrepressible temptation to use those poles as weapons.

[Kickaha]

Dunno how old you are but I definitely had Maori language lessons at primary school in the 60's , basic stuff, counting, common words, singing, etc. Didn't bother anyone.

Same in the 70's, lot of poi and stick games were a regular part of the yearly school theatre stuff

[F5 Dave]

I'll say the 80s as I'm not as old as you.