David Seymour [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

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sugilite

13th May 2022, 15:43

So what is he?
The political messiah New Zealand politics sorely needs?
Or maybe a twerk in progress who will dominate in future years?
Perhaps a standard pollie willing to prostitute any values to get more votes?

I could not help thinking his "alternate" budget release was a pretty good publicity lark that he will never have to back up :lol:

Thoughts?

R650R

13th May 2022, 15:59

We already have an ACT thread.....

Any party in opposition has luxury of a Wishlist budget but let’s not forget labour’s fails in actually budgeted stuff like kiwi build cnd child poverty etc....

I had a chance encounter with David in a shop in Waikato. He struck me as a genuine people person who was actually interested in listening to my random opinion and replied with thought rather than random safe party promo stuff.
Often people in that position are too busy to listen to random strangers.

He’s tiny like a race horse jockey tiny but not afraid to speak up about a few home truths in this country. He’s young and plenty of time to mature into an even stronger leader with act or someone else.

sugilite

13th May 2022, 16:16

We already have an ACT thread.....
This is a David Seymour thread. Surely there is more to him than just his act role?

Any party in opposition has luxury of a Wishlist budget but let’s not forget labour’s fails in actually budgeted stuff like kiwi build cnd child poverty etc....
Lest we forget, but this is a David Seymour thread :nono:

I had a chance encounter with David in a shop in Waikato. He struck me as a genuine people person who was actually interested in listening to my random opinion and replied with thought rather than random safe party promo stuff.
Often people in that position are too busy to listen to random strangers.
I picked up on these traits while watching him on nz dancing with the kinda stars. He seems like a good bloke, I'm just not sure of his political policies.

He’s tiny like a race horse jockey tiny but not afraid to speak up about a few home truths in this country. He’s young and plenty of time to mature into an even stronger leader with act or someone else.
You think he might change wakas in the future?

neels

13th May 2022, 16:31

Any party in opposition has luxury of a Wishlist budget but let’s not forget labour’s fails in actually budgeted stuff like kiwi build cnd child poverty etc....
This was immediately pointed out by the other pollies, they're a minority party so can say what they like and will never have to deliver on it, the best they can hope for is a couple of scraps in return for going into coalition.

Has been said before, David would get more votes if he stuck the H on his forehead.

TheDemonLord

13th May 2022, 18:15

I'm sure that those who read my other posts know what I think of the man (It's option one btw.)

But I thought I'd share a few things of interest:

He's an Electrical Engineer by trade. So not a Politician, a Manager or a Lawyer (which is what makes up most of the Pollies) - I'll let everyone read into that as much or as little as they like.

He's read some of James Lindsays works.

He's consistently stood on points of principle (and IMO been subsequently vindicated).

And perhaps most telling of all...

He takes the time to reply with well articulated responses when I send him an Email (and given all here should know my ability to write screeds of text....)

So yeah. Top man, I like him, I hope you like him too, if not - freedom of choice and all that.

Edit:

Something to add - when he did his tour and I got to hear his lecture and chat with him, there are a coupe of policies where I could see the line of logic, but I and the crowd challenged him on. So it's not like I agree with him on everything - there is minutia and nuance that I disagree with - but on the broad strokes of what he stands for, completely agree.

Also - the other ACT MPs that I've met have all been absolutely top notch too.

Berries

13th May 2022, 23:02

I'd tap it.

14th May 2022, 13:04

I always pay attention to him when in the News and generally I'm impressed with the honesty and logic of his views so he's obviously struck a cord. He seems to have that rare talent to view contentious issues with pragmatic logic and reasoning by removing emotional knee jerk reactions. He focuses on the problem not the personalities. Unlike the other parties (primarily the Maori Party) that instantly label anything or person they don't agree with as a racist. They throw that label around like it's an instant 'win an argument card'? Wrong. Facts, fairness, equality for all, truth and logic override political correctness and woke minority prejudices.

Unfortunately I liked what I was hearing from him before the last election so I looked into their Act Political manifesto and was gutted to discover it has some ideas I could not stomach.

I agree with his budget idea to get rid of departments that are only focused on helping one demographic. If we want to get to a truly equal society there cannot be laws or behaviours that favour and disfavour one sector over another.

pritch

14th May 2022, 13:10

He’s tiny like a race horse jockey tiny but not afraid to speak up about a few home truths in this country. He’s young and plenty of time to mature into an even stronger leader with act or someone else.

Lots of politicians are. They are chasing power in Parliament to compensate for their lack of physical stature.

JimO

14th May 2022, 13:12

rimmer or mrs ed, i pick rimmer

pritch

14th May 2022, 13:18

ACT profess to be Libertarians. They are anti any welfare. They wouldn't give a shit if people were starving.

DS bought a bunch of ACT MPs into Parliament with him last time. Have you ever heard a peep out of any of them? Dunno about you but I couldn't name a single one. He's got them on a tight rein. If they got to speak out people would realise how loopy ACT is.

TheDemonLord

14th May 2022, 13:51

ACT profess to be Libertarians. They are anti any welfare. They wouldn't give a shit if people were starving.

This is the uncharitable interpretation. What David Seymour is against is people being stuck on Welfare, which is a real problem: "intergenerational welfare dependency". That is what he's attempting to target.

And I'll be honest - the last email I sent to him, feedback from the tour was critical of one of these policies because I felt it wouldn't produce the desired result, even though I agreed with the problem that was being addressed.

DS bought a bunch of ACT MPs into Parliament with him last time. Have you ever heard a peep out of any of them? Dunno about you but I couldn't name a single one. He's got them on a tight rein. If they got to speak out people would realise how loopy ACT is.

Nicole McKee and Chris Baillie....

TheDemonLord

14th May 2022, 13:56

Unfortunately I liked what I was hearing from him before the last election so I looked into their Act Political manifesto and was gutted to discover it has some ideas I could not stomach

What specifically, if you don't mind my asking?

husaberg

14th May 2022, 15:10

Rimmers a total smeg heads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0o4Og8zE2c

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-10-2018/80zzGI.gifhttps://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-09/15/22/campaign_images/webdr12/new-zealand-politician-the-french-love-the-cock-2-6172-1442369778-0_dblbig.jpghttps://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/l/s/f/p/9/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.710x400. 1of3a8.png/1518666224281.jpg

pete376403

14th May 2022, 16:18

This is the uncharitable interpretation. What David Seymour is against is people being stuck on Welfare, which is a real problem: "intergenerational welfare dependency". That is what he's attempting to target.

Trying to break this cycle. Educate the youngest generation in the benefits of NOT following what their parents did. However what do you do with the previous generations while getting the new one sorted - starve them while suggesting to the kids that they can avoid this fate? Out with the old, in with the new. Sounds a bit like Maos Great Leap Forward. Great role model for DS and Act.

R650R

14th May 2022, 16:26

Waka jumping... well he’s young and we’ve seen plenty of change in political scenery over years. Just like normal people changing jobs as we mature skills and opinions change

TheDemonLord

14th May 2022, 18:02

Trying to break this cycle. Educate the youngest generation in the benefits of NOT following what their parents did. However what do you do with the previous generations while getting the new one sorted - starve them while suggesting to the kids that they can avoid this fate? Out with the old, in with the new. Sounds a bit like Maos Great Leap Forward. Great role model for DS and Act.

Yeah.... I checked the ACT website - can't find the reference to Starving people...

His message on this:

We have businesses that need workers and we have people on the benefit who need jobs. We need to find a way to get both of them introduced to each other.

I don't know where this has come from, but I suspect it's a distortion of his statements that he wants everyone in NZ to have a job/working. It's an ideal to aim for - not an edict to go eliminate those who are making the stats look bad.

And look, Education to break the cycle is important, jobs are also important, opportunities are important - which is what I think he thinks ACTs focus should be.

husaberg

14th May 2022, 19:16

in Actsprevious suggestion The flat tax rate that ACT proposed was approximately 15% with no tax on the first $25,000 for those who opt out of state-provided accident, sickness and healthcare cover.

This weekend he unveiled a tax proposal that would see personal and company tax rates set at 17.5 percent — that’s a tax increase for people on lower incomes, and a tax cut for people on higher incomes.

Economists aren’t so sure about the plan — many say it's unfair and hits those on low income hardest. In fact, using Treasury’s modelling tool a flat tax of 17.5 percent would result in a tax increase for everyone earning less than $56,000.

Data from stats shows that close to 70 percent of income earners would be worse off under the ACT scheme.

New Zealand income earners are currently taxed at four rates. The first $14,000 people earn is taxed at 10.5 percent, the next lot of income up to $48,000 is taxed at 17.5 percent, and the next lot of income up to $70,000 is taxed at 30 percent. Any income above $70,000 is taxed at a rate of 33 percent.

Rimmers a smeghead

14th May 2022, 21:06

What specifically, if you don't mind my asking?

It was a few years ago but essentially I recall they had a stupid approach along the lines that anyone who wanted a firearm should carry one anywhere, anyhow. Oh yeah and that has just worked out fucking fantastically in America.
Then they wanted to de-stablish my favororite Govt dept of all time , the Dept. of Conservation. They felt that people and farmers would just look after the environment fine without Govt oversight and guidelines. Piss off I love the beauty of our pristine country, rivers etc and DOC have done, despite pathetic budgets support, their best to preserve our nature and heritage. Ok I'm not a fan of 1080 but we don't seem to have a better alternative. Visit the Denniston Incline or Waiuta to see what a bloody amazing job DOC have done at preserving our history.
I am a licenced firearms holder and it needs to be controlled- strictly.

JimO

15th May 2022, 07:23

TheDemonLord

15th May 2022, 08:12

It was a few years ago but essentially I recall they had a stupid approach along the lines that anyone who wanted a firearm should carry one anywhere, anyhow. Oh yeah and that has just worked of fucking fantastically in America.

That must have been quite some time ago, and definitely before Nicole McKee joined ACT.

Then they wanted to de-stablish my favororite Govt dept of all time , the Dept. of Conservation. They felt that people and farmers would just look after the environment fine without Govt oversight and guidelines. Piss off I love the beauty of our pristine country, rivers etc and DOC have done, despite pathetic budgets support, their best to preserve our nature and heritage. Ok I'm not a fan of 1080 but we don't seem to have a better alternative. Visit the Denniston Incline or Waiuta to see what a bloody amazing job DOC have done at preserving our history.

I had a chat with other ACT voters, including some life-long farmers, the sentiment I heard from the voters was along the lines of:

"I'm sick of having people who have never set foot on a farm, with no real-world experience fresh out of university, setting rules and regulations that have unintended consequences" - it's possible that it was this sort of thinking that lead to what you read?

Now, for the most part I think DoC does a good job, I'm less impassioned on the 1080 subject, but from what I hear from others who are, I do firmly believe that a discussion about it's usage needs to be had and whether the alternatives are worth the cost(s) (both monetary and otherwise).

I've seen ACT talking about zero-ing each Government department at the start of a new year, which I think is one of those more hyperbolic policies, but it's point is to highlight how Government Bureaucracy always ratchets up.

I am a licenced firearms holder and it needs to be controlled- strictly.

I'm on board with the individually being vetted strictly (as that was causal to the Chch fuckwit getting his licence - proper procedures weren't followed), but once that vetting is done, I'm for less control.

That said - one idea that I raised with Nicole and with COLFO (as part of a discussion about Club Membership) - is that as a condition of maintaining a licence, you have to undergo a yearly safety check at your local club.

I want to be clear this isn't a fully formed policy - but the discussion was along the lines of - how do we make sure that individuals who have licences and are going through difficult times have a Whanau that can support them and stop them from doing something stupid? Shooting is by nature a very individual sport and there's a certain appeal to introverts to shooting - how do you get those people who shy away from society to engage in society?

R650R

15th May 2022, 09:39

It was a few years ago but essentially I recall they had a stupid approach along the lines that anyone who wanted a firearm should carry one anywhere, anyhow. Oh yeah and that has just worked of fucking fantastically in America.
....,
I am a licenced firearms holder and it needs to be controlled- strictly.

It’s syrictly controlled here in NZ and hasn’t stopped jack shit. We had a terrorist act, gang driveby shootings are now common place in news and not even all of it is reported anymore.
America has 330 million people and gun violence hasnt really made a dent in population, what’s been more dangerous is the China virus.... good case of perception vs reality.

It’s a pity there isn’t a way to see what America would look like if it had our nanny state pc laws and soft on crime approach....

sugilite

15th May 2022, 11:06

It’s syrictly controlled here in NZ and hasn’t stopped jack shit.
Sorry to butt in with some inconvenient facts that run against your narrative....

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Screenshot-2022-05-15-at-10-54-34-Gun-Deaths-by-Country-2022.png

TheDemonLord

15th May 2022, 11:19

Sorry to butt in with some inconvenient facts that run against your narrative....

All I'm going to say is that before Jacinda Ardern, I did not know anyone that had been shot at.

Firearm Crime under Jacinda has increased, especially Gang Crime.

To be fair, we still have a very low rate of Firearm Crime (not suicides, that your data includes - that's another issue) - if we look at Austria (who has a similar rate of Firearm murders, as per your data)

Their laws for what they call Category B:

Authorities shall issue license to any non-prohibited citizen of European Economic Area over 21 who has good reason (law stipulates self-defense at home as a good reason) which allows purchase of up to two handguns. Authorities may issue license to person below 21, but over 18, non-citizen of EEA or person seeking to own more than two handguns.[4] Since 2019 the autorities shall issue a license for up to 5 weapons after having a license for two weapons for 5 or more years.

Cat B being: Category B includes handguns, repeating shotguns and semi-automatic rifles;

So much more liberal than NZ's pre-Stalinda Laws, and yet - they are almost identical to us in terms of Firearm Crime.

Sorry to butt in with some inconvenient facts against your narrative :msn-wink:

sugilite

15th May 2022, 11:43

To be fair, we still have a very low rate of Firearm Crime (not suicides, that your data includes - that's another issue) - if we look at Austria (who has a similar rate of Firearm murders, as per your data)

Their laws for what they call Category B:

Cat B being: Category B includes handguns, repeating shotguns and semi-automatic rifles;

So much more liberal than NZ's pre-Stalinda Laws, and yet - they are almost identical to us in terms of Firearm Crime.:
And both countries well down the list. which goes against the op's gist of our gun laws are not working.
Thank you for your support of my narrative that they are working well enough to keep us down the bottom half of that list :msn-wink:

TheDemonLord

15th May 2022, 11:55

And both countries well down the list. which goes against the op's gist of our gun laws are not working.
Thank you for your support of my narrative that they are working well enough to keep us down the bottom half of that list :msn-wink:

If I was to say that our Crime rate was even lower than before Jacinda? Sure by global standards it's still very low, but not as low as it should be by New Zealand Standard. And remembering the 'tough new gun laws' were designed to 'stop crime'

And they haven't.

sugilite

15th May 2022, 12:15

If I was to say that our Crime rate was even lower than before Jacinda? Sure by global standards it's still very low, but not as low as it should be by New Zealand Standard. And remembering the 'tough new gun laws' were designed to 'stop crime'

And they haven't.
And never will, but they do help. Kinda like the zero road death policy, in no way obtainable.
For some reason reminds me of what perdue said when asked what about rape babies in relation to the abortion debate. He said he would abolish rape in Texas. I wonder how that is going. About as likely as anti gun laws working 100% huh.

TheDemonLord

15th May 2022, 12:18

And never will, but they do help. Kinda like the zero road death policy, in no way obtainable.
For some reason reminds me of what perdue said when asked what about rape babies in relation to the abortion debate. He said he would abolish rape in Texas. I wonder how that is going. About as likely as anti gun laws working 100% huh.

It's noble to aim for a zero road toll - but it's not obtainable without extreme tyranny, and well - suffice to say you know my thoughts on the matter.

My point is that the new Gun Laws have not helped and the stats prove this.

sugilite

15th May 2022, 12:24

It's noble to aim for a zero road toll - but it's not obtainable without extreme tyranny, and well - suffice to say you know my thoughts on the matter.

My point is that the new Gun Laws have not helped and the stats prove this.

I say give the new laws some time before proclaiming them ineffective. I'm comfortable with the new laws. I know you are not.

TheDemonLord

15th May 2022, 12:38

I say give the new laws some time before proclaiming them ineffective. I'm comfortable with the new laws. I know you are not.

When it comes to banning something, unless there's an immediate effect - then it was ineffective.

pritch

15th May 2022, 13:34

Sorry to butt in with some inconvenient facts that run against your narrative....

I can understand 650R's confusion. Well, some of it. The Press and opposition politicians are continually banging on about how the gangs are out of control and bemoaning all the crime. There is violence no doubt, and due to that arsehole Scotty from Marketing, we are receiving some violent gang exports from Australia.
Internationally we just don't rate as a violent country. In fact, according to the International Safety index 2022, only Iceland is safer than NZ.

You definitely would not get the impression from the hysterical media that we are rated second safest country on the planet.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/safest-countries-in-the-world

husaberg

15th May 2022, 16:02

I say give the new laws some time before proclaiming them ineffective. I'm comfortable with the new laws. I know you are not.

Gun violence when adjusted for population says the highest ever level recorded was when National and Act was in power right before the 2017 election.:killingme:bs::whistle::2thumbsup:scratch :

In 2020, But when comparing that to population, the rate of firearms related injuries were the fifth worst on record, with the previous highest being 2016.

15th May 2022, 21:24

. And remembering the 'tough new gun laws' were designed to 'stop crime'

And they haven't.

Sorry I have to correct you there. Other laws are designed to stop crime such as do not kill, rob, assault and rape etc. [Crimes Act mainly]

Our Gun laws are not designed to stop crime. They are designed to ensure the safe use and responsible ownership and possession of firearms. The 2019 Prohibited amendments were designed to reduce the likelihood of the most dangerous types of firearms falling into the wrong hands and therefore reducing the likelihood of another mass killing. For sure gangs are still using firearms for crime and people are still using firearms to commit murder. But the opportunity for potential offenders to source high powered rapid fire guns with large magazines has been diminished and that in itself is a success. Sure, there are still guns floating around in the wrong hands but the pool is shrinking and bit by bit they are being seized. So I think we have to say the new laws are working towards their objective.

TheDemonLord

16th May 2022, 08:16

Sorry I have to correct you there. Other laws are designed to stop crime such as do not kill, rob, assault and rape etc. [Crimes Act mainly]

Our Gun laws are not designed to stop crime. They are designed to ensure the safe use and responsible ownership and possession of firearms. The 2019 Prohibited amendments were designed to reduce the likelihood of the most dangerous types of firearms falling into the wrong hands and therefore reducing the likelihood of another mass killing. For sure gangs are still using firearms for crime and people are still using firearms to commit murder. But the opportunity for potential offenders to source high powered rapid fire guns with large magazines has been diminished and that in itself is a success. Sure, there are still guns floating around in the wrong hands but the pool is shrinking and bit by bit they are being seized. So I think we have to say the new laws are working towards their objective.

And I absolutely disagree.

What would have stopped the Chch event was the Police doing their job properly at the point of issuing a licence.

If they needed to change the law - then re-classifying Magazines that held more than 7 rounds of centrefire and patterned for a Semi-Auto reciever as requiring an E-Cat licence would have also solved it.

Has it diminished? Well, the vast majority of Semi-Autos are still out there, so....

TheDemonLord

16th May 2022, 08:18

Gun violence when adjusted for population says the highest ever level recorded was when National and Act was in power right before the 2017 election.:killingme:bs::whistle::2thumbsup:scratch :

Curious isn't it, that in order to blame National, you have to adjust for Population, as opposed to using the absolute number (which is what people care about).

Again with the absolute abuse of stats.

sugilite

16th May 2022, 18:11

When it comes to banning something, unless there's an immediate effect - then it was ineffective.

I dunno about that, I mean have their been any more terrorist attacks in NZ with the use of guns since the law came in?

onearmedbandit

16th May 2022, 18:31

I dunno about that, I mean have their been any more terrorist attacks in NZ with the use of guns since the law came in?

To be fair, it would seem we've only had one terrorist attack with guns in NZ at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_New_Zealand

pete376403

16th May 2022, 18:45

To be fair, it would seem we've only had one terrorist attack with guns in NZ at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_New_Zealand

David Gray? Jan Molenaar? Stanley Graham? What defines the difference between a "terrorist" and a "pissed off guy with a gun"

sugilite

16th May 2022, 19:20

To be fair, it would seem we've only had one terrorist attack with guns in NZ at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_New_Zealand
yep, exactly. Tis a subtle dig at TDL as I see a parallel to asking this question with TDL's saying Putin did not invade Ukraine while Trump is in charge. As in about as relevant as a small cloud in the sky.

onearmedbandit

16th May 2022, 19:44

David Gray? Jan Molenaar? Stanley Graham? What defines the difference between a "terrorist" and a "pissed off guy with a gun"

The definition used is given in the link. But to save you the effort...

However, unlike some other jurisdictions,[3] New Zealand has actually defined terrorism in an Act of Parliament.

The major piece of terrorist-related legislation in New Zealand is the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002.[4] The Act was introduced by the Government to strengthen its counter-terrorism powers, in response to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 in the United States.[5] The Terrorism Suppression Act defines terrorism, in New Zealand or elsewhere, as an act that "is carried out for the purpose of advancing an ideological, political, or religious cause"[4] and with the following intention:

to induce terror in a civilian population; or
to unduly compel or to force a government or an international organisation to do or abstain from doing any act.

And if it results in one or more of the following outcomes:[4]

the death of, or other serious bodily injury to, one or more persons (other than a person carrying out the act):
a serious risk to the health or safety of a population:
destruction of, or serious damage to, property of great value or importance, or major economic loss, or major environmental damage, if likely to result in one or more outcomes specified in points 1, 2 and 4:
serious interference with, or serious disruption to, an infrastructure facility, if likely to endanger human life:
introduction or release of a disease-bearing organism, if likely to devastate the national economy of a country.

Alternatively, instead of the listed outcomes, "it occurs in a situation of armed conflict and is, at the time and in the place that it occurs, in accordance with rules of international law applicable to the conflict"

onearmedbandit

16th May 2022, 19:45

yep, exactly. Tis a subtle dig at TDL as I see a parallel to asking this question with TDL's saying Putin did not invade Ukraine while Trump is in charge. As in about as relevant as a small cloud in the sky.

That crossed my mind after I posted it but figured what the hey.

sugilite

16th May 2022, 19:50

That crossed my mind after I posted it but figured what the hey.

Yep, no worries. For the record, seeing what happened yet again in the US, this time an alleged white supremacist killing 10 black people at a mall. I'm comfortable with the current gun laws here.

onearmedbandit

16th May 2022, 19:52

Yep, no worries. For the record, seeing what happened yet again in the US, this time an alleged white supremacist killing 10 black people at a mall. I'm comfortable with the current gun laws here.

Same too, while there is a lot more behind gun crime in America than just gun accessibility it is still a major undeniable factor, even if only relevant to the other underlying causes.

pritch

16th May 2022, 19:57

David Gray? Jan Molenaar? Stanley Graham? What defines the difference between a "terrorist" and a "pissed off guy with a gun"

In case you were serious, the definition 'terrorism' requires a poitical component. If they leave a "manifesto" as did the Christchurch mosque shooter, as did Breivik and this Buffalo arsehole, that can qualify as terrorism.

Stanley Graham was seriously pissed off but he wasn't a terrorist. Brenda Spencer who sorta started the whole US school shooting thing didn't like Mondays; she may be mad, but she's not a terrorist.

TheDemonLord

16th May 2022, 20:35

I dunno about that, I mean have their been any more terrorist attacks in NZ with the use of guns since the law came in?

Well, it was nearly 30 years between the last 'mass shooting', so if there's a mass shooting before that 30 year period, we'll know it didn't work :P

Kickaha

16th May 2022, 21:35

Stanley Graham was seriously pissed off but he wasn't a terrorist. Brenda Spencer who sorta started the whole US school shooting thing didn't like Mondays; she may be mad, but she's not a terrorist.

Brenda Spencer wasn't even close to starting it, school shootings in America go back a few hundred years, it's one of their favourite pastimes

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

TheDemonLord

16th May 2022, 21:41

Brenda Spencer wasn't even close to starting it, school shootings in America go back a few hundred years, it's one of their favourite pastimes

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

I think she could be regarded as the first of the modern day shooters. In particular, she was a Minor and a Student.

Although you could regard the Bell Tower Sniper as the first that received nationwide attention.

pritch

16th May 2022, 22:03

Brenda Spencer wasn't even close to starting it, school shootings in America go back a few hundred years, it's one of their favourite pastimes

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

An interesting list and I haven't finished it yet but most of the things mentioned are not relevant to what we are talking about. There's a lot of wild west stuff. A number of female teachers were shot for rejecting amorous advances. Up to the 1970s when students at Kent State University were shot by badly trained or untrained National Guardsmen.

I'll keep looking...

Berries

16th May 2022, 22:19

I think I missed a page.

When did David Seymour shoot someone?

sugilite

17th May 2022, 08:05

Well, it was nearly 30 years between the last 'mass shooting', so if there's a mass shooting before that 30 year period, we'll know it didn't work :P
Which brings us around to my earlier statement of give the law some time to work ;)

I think I missed a page.

When did David Seymour shoot someone?

The thread went that way after a clip was revealed showing Seymour coming down the escalator at britomart in Auckland, proclaiming he was running for prime minister while also claiming he could shoot people on queen street without losing any voters. Well if the victims were not registered Epsom voters that is. True story bro :yes:

TheDemonLord

17th May 2022, 08:59

Which brings us around to my earlier statement of give the law some time to work ;)

I'll be counting ;)

The thread went that way after a clip was revealed showing Seymour coming down the escalator at britomart in Auckland, proclaiming he was running for prime minister while also claiming he could shoot people on queen street without losing any voters. Well if the victims were not registered Epsom voters that is. True story bro :yes:

Now, let's be serious for a second here...

Would this decrease or increase his popularity with the rest of New Zealand....

I'm joking of course.....

We all know it would increase it. :laugh:

R650R

17th May 2022, 09:17

I think I missed a page.

When did David Seymour shoot someone?

Dont think it was him although someone with a trwerking fetish shot their load at the mere sight of his name lmao

https://youtu.be/N6jWCVO38iA

R650R

17th May 2022, 09:22

The definition used is given in the link. But to save you the effort...

That’s scary broad in scope and even the govt could be considered guilty on a variety of counts under those words.

I preferred the traditional definition in its simplicity “ violence to achieve polical or ideological goals”
What’s stated in that legislations is basically doing anything that scares the population or harms infrastructure and economy. Failure to control inflation anyone???!

pritch

17th May 2022, 12:11

Failure to control inflation anyone???!

Here we go again. Don't believe all the propaganda you're reading. Inflation here is lower than some comparable countries and similar to others. National like to say, "Higher than our trading partners." Presumably they are referring to China which does have low inflation. So does Afghanistan.

It's a world wide problem and NZ is handling it as well as most and better than some.

TheDemonLord

17th May 2022, 12:20

Here we go again. Don't believe all the propaganda you're reading. Inflation here is lower than some comparable countries and similar to others. National like to say, "Higher than our trading partners." Presumably they are referring to China which does have low inflation. So does Afghanistan.

It's a world wide problem and NZ is handling it as well as most and better than some.

It's not a world wide problem, it's a problem for all the countries that applied similar fiscal policies.

If you print money, increase minimum wages, shutdown the economy etc. You will get inflation.

R650R

17th May 2022, 13:23

Here we go again. Don't believe all the propaganda you're reading....

It's a world wide problem and NZ is handling it as well as most and better than some.

To quote Terri Hatcher it’s real and it’s slectacular.... Rampant inflations is real it’s not just an “ idea”....

My fixed mortgage rate is about to double specificly from this govts policies so they could get re-elected again. They snorted a line of cheap cash for a short term high now here comes the afteraffects....
Btw I can afford the rise it’s no big deal to me and my repayments still cheaper than renting. But it’s going to smash many labour voters who only just got onto the ladder and now will be mortgagee/repo sale victims as the banks call in their debt.
Just like 2009 the banks will land bank the properties and drop feed them into market furthering the housing availability crisis.

neels

17th May 2022, 18:42

Just like 2009 the banks will land bank the properties and drop feed them into market furthering the housing availability crisis.
No problem, pissed off landlords will keep selling up, so the first home buyers will still have something to buy. Of course their tenants will then have nowhere to live, so will join the housing NZ waiting list, and end up living in a motel.

Inflation as a measure is bollocks when the things people need cost more due to external factors, and not because there is an excess of cash increasing demand for things they don't need, but still the punishment is taking even more money off the people who already have less of it.

pritch

18th May 2022, 12:52

It's not a world wide problem, it's a problem for all the countries that applied similar fiscal policies.

If you print money, increase minimum wages, shutdown the economy etc. You will get inflation.

And then there's the real world. Apart from exceptions like China, Japan, and Malaysia, most people couldn't even point to many of the countries with 2% inflation on a map.

It's a world wide problem.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate-

James Deuce

18th May 2022, 14:02

Nicole McKee and Chris Baillie....

I thought you were going to say Chris Barrie for a second.

TheDemonLord

18th May 2022, 14:06

And then there's the real world. Apart from exceptions like China, Japan, and Malaysia, most people couldn't even point to many of the countries with 2% inflation on a map.

It's a world wide problem.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate-

Hold up... It's a world wide problem... with Exceptions.

And going by the exceptions you listed, 2 of them are major economic powers.

So if it's not an issue that was directly caused by Policy - pray tell Pritch: Why did it not happen to Japan?

What's more, I suspect (I haven't looked at this deeply) there's probably a strong correlation between countries that predominantly export to the likes of US/Europe not having high inflation, whereas the countries that predominantly import from the likes do.

TheDemonLord

18th May 2022, 14:07

I thought you were going to say Chris Barrie for a second.

Well, the man likes Tanks and was on Red Dwarf, so I'd vote for him...

James Deuce

18th May 2022, 14:09

Well, the man likes Tanks and was on Red Dwarf, so I'd vote for him...

Absolutely. He was completely insufferable in Brittas Empire too, so he'd make a great polly.

Viking01

18th May 2022, 16:01

Hold up... It's a world wide problem... with Exceptions.

And going by the exceptions you listed, 2 of them are major economic powers.

So if it's not an issue that was directly caused by Policy - pray tell Pritch: Why did it not happen to Japan?

What's more, I suspect (I haven't looked at this deeply) there's probably a strong correlation between countries that predominantly export to the likes of US/Europe not having high inflation, whereas the countries that predominantly import from the likes do.

Japan
Data shown in earlier link was to March 2022:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/05/16/business/april-wholesale-prices-2/

husaberg

18th May 2022, 19:59

2021
The top 10 most expensive cities in 2021:
Tel Aviv (Israel).
Paris (France).
Singapore.
Zurich (Switzerland).
Hong Kong (China).
New York (United States of America).
Geneva (Switzerland).
Copenhagen (Denmark).
Los Angeles (United States of America).
Osaka (Japan).

#Auckland 27th

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/J9mn031IKXXzZTHZGMXnAt_zxVc=/1440x1680/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/XNBKES3KF5WTKSG2DVFCNLPHHI.jpg

TheDemonLord

18th May 2022, 20:06

Japan
Data shown in earlier link was to March 2022:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/05/16/business/april-wholesale-prices-2/

I was going by Pritch's data - interesting other countries to not - UAE, Saudi etc. not much inflation.

One might presume that they didn't experience price hikes due to high fuel costs...

18th May 2022, 20:31

And I absolutely disagree.

What would have stopped the Chch event was the Police doing their job properly at the point of issuing a licence.

If they needed to change the law - then re-classifying Magazines that held more than 7 rounds of centrefire and patterned for a Semi-Auto reciever as requiring an E-Cat licence would have also solved it.

Has it diminished? Well, the vast majority of Semi-Autos are still out there, so....

Well you absolutely disagreeing with me has reduced me to tears, I'm so upset. My point still stands it was not the job of gun laws to stop crime. Thousands of prohibited firearms were removed from our society. I feel safer. Those that genuinely needed them were allowed to. I feel safer. The majority of semi-autos ARE NOT STILL OUT THERE. I feel safer. You seem to have a problem with arithmetic. 10 less 3 is a reduction. 10 less 4 is a reduction and so it goes on. Do you need a calculator?

pritch

18th May 2022, 21:26

Hold up... It's a world wide problem... with Exceptions.

And going by the exceptions you listed, 2 of them are major economic powers.

So if it's not an issue that was directly caused by Policy - pray tell Pritch: Why did it not happen to Japan?

What's more, I suspect (I haven't looked at this deeply) there's probably a strong correlation between countries that predominantly export to the likes of US/Europe not having high inflation, whereas the countries that predominantly import from the likes do.

You are vainly trying to split irrelevant hairs. Nothing new there. A world wide problem with exceptions is a real world thing. I didn't say the whole world without exception. Nearly every major country and a lot of minor countries qualifies as world wide.

Don't create increasingly silly arguments, I'm not interested. I won't be reading them.

TheDemonLord

19th May 2022, 08:07

Well you absolutely disagreeing with me has reduced me to tears, I'm so upset. My point still stands it was not the job of gun laws to stop crime. Thousands of prohibited firearms were removed from our society. I feel safer. Those that genuinely needed them were allowed to. I feel safer. The majority of semi-autos ARE NOT STILL OUT THERE. I feel safer. You seem to have a problem with arithmetic. 10 less 3 is a reduction. 10 less 4 is a reduction and so it goes on. Do you need a calculator?

I mean, you are mocking me for arithmetic, but don't seem to realize that 70% (the best case scenario that are 'still out there') is most definitely 'The Majority'.

so.....

Edit:

Just out of curiosity - if one day, they come for you, with someone else confiscating your firearms to feel safer - will you still agree then? or will you feel that some moral wrong has been done to you?

TheDemonLord

19th May 2022, 08:08

You are vainly trying to split irrelevant hairs. Nothing new there. A world wide problem with exceptions is a real world thing. I didn't say the whole world without exception. Nearly every major country and a lot of minor countries qualifies as world wide.

Don't create increasingly silly arguments, I'm not interested. I won't be reading them.

So you are tacitly agreeing that Policy was a factor then.

Good, then I am perfectly within my remit to mock those that adopted the Policies that caused the problem.

R650R

20th May 2022, 10:58

https://youtu.be/mxiHVo-M9P0

husaberg

20th May 2022, 19:47

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/04/laughing-fit-in-parliament-after-david-seymour-arrives-too-late-to-slow-gun-law-reform.html

https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/04/02/paula-bennett-and-shane-jones-share-laugh-at-david-seymours-expense-he-made-an-absolute-fool-of-himself/

PS Seymour worked in Canada as a Policy Analyst for five years for Frontier Centre for Public Policy and the Manning Centre
it turns out what is good for the Rimer is not great of the remainder....

F5 Dave

20th May 2022, 21:03

You are vainly trying to split irrelevant hairs. Nothing new there. A world wide problem with exceptions is a real world thing. I didn't say the whole world without exception. Nearly every major country and a lot of minor countries qualifies as world wide.

Don't create increasingly silly arguments, I'm not interested. I won't be reading them.
You're getting there. He's either a moron or pretending to be one. Just put him on ignore and he goes away.

husaberg

20th May 2022, 23:31

You're getting there. He's either a moron or pretending to be one. Just put him on ignore and he goes away.

He's previously laid claim to the world's best security expert with knowedge exceeding that of the FBI and legal expert in both the NZ and USA judges as well as knowing more the the NZ mental health foundation https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/140713-Stupid-World?p=1131200893&highlight=fbi+judge#post1131200893
But i don' believe hes ever claimed to be the world's best actor, so its likely to be option one........

Adding him to ignore declutters KB quite a lot.

TheDemonLord

21st May 2022, 08:17

He's previously laid claim to the world's best security expert with knowedge exceeding that of the FBI and legal expert in both the NZ and USA judges as well as knowing more the the NZ mental health foundation https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/140713-Stupid-World?p=1131200893&highlight=fbi+judge#post1131200893
But i don' believe hes ever claimed to be the world's best actor, so its likely to be option one........

Adding him to ignore declutters KB quite a lot.

Quoting yourself, as 'proof' of your claims about someone else really makes you look silly.

TheDemonLord

21st May 2022, 08:19

You're getting there. He's either a moron or pretending to be one. Just put him on ignore and he goes away.

Or.... I'm pointing out the obvious.

The inconvenient obvious.

and as for Ignore - I'm continually perplexed as to why yourself and Husa are obsessed with telling people you have me on Ignore.

I suspect that late at night, when the Wife isn't looking, you take me off ignore and voraciously read all my posts, whilst telling yourself it's just for research...:laugh:

sugilite

21st May 2022, 10:42

Or.... I'm pointing out the obvious.

The inconvenient obvious.

Speaking of the inconvenient obvious. This from Donald Trump himself.
""Dr. Oz should declare victory. It makes it much harder for them to cheat with the ballots that they just happened to find," Trump wrote on his social media network, "Truth Social,"

It is undeniable that Trumps is continually actively undermining the underpinnings of democracy - that being free and fair elections. Even within his own parties primary voting. This is the reality of the man you so passionately defend.

husaberg

21st May 2022, 15:58

Speaking of the inconvenient obvious. This from Donald Trump himself.
""Dr. Oz should declare victory. It makes it much harder for them to cheat with the ballots that they just happened to find," Trump wrote on his social media network, "Truth Social,"

It is undeniable that Trumps is continually actively undermining the underpinnings of democracy - that being free and fair elections. Even within his own parties primary voting. This is the reality of the man you so passionately defend.

When you look the republican party, the donors, and the rhetoric it relies on misinformation from smear campaigns and negative reporting.
With highly funded campaigns its only hope is to try and reduce the democracy as it is a party that likes to benefit the privileged few.

Lets be clear they have only won the popular vote once in 30 years.....once in 30 years.

TheDemonLord

21st May 2022, 21:24

Lets be clear they have only won the popular vote once in 30 years.....once in 30 years.

It's almost like the founding fathers recognized that Cities would contain a disproportionate percentage of the population and so put in place the Electoral College.

Meaning the 'popular' vote, is irrelevant.

F5 Dave

22nd May 2022, 12:54

Democracy shouldn't be wasted on the common people what?

husaberg

22nd May 2022, 21:38

Democracy shouldn't be wasted on the common people what?

That's right it should just be up to whoever the Koch brothers wants a president

TheDemonLord

23rd May 2022, 08:32

That's right it should just be up to whoever the Koch brothers wants a president

"husaberg knows more about the US Electoral system than the Electoral College"

QED.

pritch

23rd May 2022, 09:54

That's right it should just be up to whoever the Koch brothers wants a president

There aren't Koch brothers now, one died. There is Larry, who came down under with an America's Cup challenge, but he was eased out of the business decades ago.
Too much the loose canon was Larry.

pritch

23rd May 2022, 09:57

"husaberg knows more about the US Electoral system than the Electoral College"

QED.

It's entirely possible that Husaberg does no more than the inbred, criminal, "electors" that represent some states. Or try to.

TheDemonLord

23rd May 2022, 10:08

It's entirely possible that Husaberg does no more than the inbred, criminal, "electors" that represent some states. Or try to.

Just two *really* quick points

1: I'm mocking Husaberg based on his own standards that he holds for me
2: If it's entirely possible for Husaberg to know more, then it's also entirely possible for Me to know more as well.

And so now, every time Husaberg copypastas his spiel about me (whilst loudly proclaiming how he has me on ignore) - I'm just going to cite this post.

husaberg

23rd May 2022, 17:56

There aren't Koch brothers now, one died. There is Larry, who came down under with an America's Cup challenge, but he was eased out of the business decades ago.
Too much the loose canon was Larry.

No idea of the present business situation, but there are hundreds of millions that are flowing into nearly always republican coffers.
Koch money flows nearly exclusively to the republicans, who do what the Kochs want to push. it seems an unlikely co-incidence.
Whilst I am sure certain individuals don't want it known how much money they pour in. This is why they make such a large effort to keep it under wraps.

During the 2016 presidential election, the Koch network spent around $750 million, putting it almost on par with the amount spent by the Republican Party.

The Kochs ramped up their political efforts during the 2018 midterms, vowing to spend up to $400 million to support conservative candidates

The Koch brothers indicated that they intended to raise almost $880 million in support of candidates in the 2016 elections, and have given more than $100 million to conservative and libertarian policy and advocacy groups in the United States.

The Koch Brothers were credited with financially aiding the rise of the Tea Party movement, which wrested control of the House for Republicans in the 2010 midterms at the tail end of President Barack Obama's first term.

The Kochs backed the American Legislative Exchange Council, an organization of conservative state lawmakers and business lobbyists. They've drafted "model legislation" that lawmakers have introduced to cut taxes, weaken environmental protections, and promote other conservative ideas. More than 600 of them have become law across the US.

Anthropogenic climate change skeptic Willie Soon received more than $500,000 from the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation and a trust used by the Kochs

In early 2018, political advocacy groups linked to the Koch family pledged to spend $400 million on the 2018 midterm elections

The primary recipients of Koch contributions, including Americans for Prosperity, The Heritage Foundation, and the Manhattan Institute, actively oppose clean energy and carbon legislation and are skeptical of climate science. In fact, the Koch brothers were involved in the first known gathering of climate change skeptics in 1991. Organized by the Cato Institute, the meeting shifted the position of the Republican Party on climate change. While George H. W. Bush had still supported research into global warming under the Global Change Research Act of 1990, acceptance of scientific evidence on climate change began to weaken due to the Koch family's influence.

Koch PAC Funding of Federal Political Campaigns
Koch PAC heavily favors Republicans: 99% of its contributions have gone to Republicans during the 2014 election cycle; 98% went to Republicans in the 2012 cycle. KochPAC also heavily favors Republican Party committees and leadership.

Koch Family and Individual Political Contributions
Charles Koch, his wife Elizabeth Koch, his son Chase Koch and David Koch and wife Julia Koch spent over $922,000 in individual political contributions from 2004-2010

pritch

23rd May 2022, 18:58

No idea of the present business situation, but there are hundreds of millions that are flowing into nearly always republican coffers.
Koch money flows nearly exclusively to the republicans, who do what the Kochs want to push. it seems an unlikely co-incidence.
Whilst I am sure certain individuals don't want it known how much money they pour in. This is why they make such a large effort to keep it under wraps.

They don't do it all out in the open. They fund a whole range of front organisations. Besically Koch actually does all the stuff the RWNJs accuse George Soros of doing.

sugilite

28th June 2022, 15:19

Could it be David Semen? :shifty:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300623953/political-figure-named-in-trial-of-prominent-businessman-loses-suppression

husaberg

28th June 2022, 18:28

Could it be David Semen? :shifty:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300623953/political-figure-named-in-trial-of-prominent-businessman-loses-suppression

I am sure the answers on Hunter bidens laptop.....
so this is another high profile businessman
plus a political figure
I just assumed it was all part of the plus Ron Brierly saga but its not.....

that shirt looks like a Colin Craig, Arron Gilmour or David Semen shirt
but that jacket looks hideous. more Mallard

R650R

23rd July 2022, 11:24

https://youtu.be/cRIep1HMZ6I

pritch

23rd July 2022, 12:36

pritch

23rd July 2022, 12:43

I am sure the answers on Hunter bidens laptop.....
so this is another high profile businessman
plus a political figure
I just assumed it was all part of the plus Ron Brierly saga but its not.....

that shirt looks like a Colin Craig, Arron Gilmour or David Semen shirt
but that jacket looks hideous. more Mallard

That pixelated pic reminds me of someone. I seem to recall he used to run an airline or something?

husaberg

23rd July 2022, 15:56

That pixelated pic reminds me of someone. I seem to recall he used to run an airline or something?

It couldn't be him, he's a Christian.
like Graham Capill
John Banks
Bert potter
Colin Craig
Neville owen Cooper
Jimmy Savile
The Exclusive Brethren
Andrew Falloon
Judith Collins
donald Trump
and numerous pedo priests

TheDemonLord

23rd July 2022, 18:54

Seymour is considered economically illiterate and the first half of this interview shows why. He was asked what he would do about the inflation problem besieging the Western world and he responded by talking about plaster board , chardonnay, and school uniforms. All specifically local.

What the second half of the interview is about I don't know, I haven't got time to waste listening to such gibberish.

Would that be considered Economically Illiterate by the same people that failed to predict that printing loads of money and shutting down the economy would lead to rapid Inflation?

Yeah...

sugilite

25th July 2022, 13:48

I think the point being made is seymour had no answer. Most right wing pollies are happy to just let people die, but just don't like saying it in public for some reason. If course the pollies knew printing money would cause inflation, and it would get sorted out later - with pain. Pollies love kicking the can down the road. That goes towards pollies on both sides of the divide.

TheDemonLord

25th July 2022, 14:18

I think the point being made is seymour had no answer.

I disagree - in his first sentence he correctly identified the cause - printing money/Government spending.

Most right wing pollies are happy to just let people die, but just don't like saying it in public for some reason.

If we are talking about traditional British Liberal Right wing Politics, that formulation is incorrect. They are happy to leave people to live their lives as they see fit, which includes the possibility of dying.

If course the pollies knew printing money would cause inflation, and it would get sorted out later - with pain. Pollies love kicking the can down the road. That goes towards pollies on both sides of the divide.

I'm not sure I agree with the first part, per se.

I'll say that they ought to know what would happen (It's not like hyper-inflation in the Weimar republic isn't taught in every Economics class). However, I'm not so sure many of them did know. Too many Politicians are completely illiterate when it comes to Economics and mostly I would say this stems from never having a real job in the real world (Stalinda as a shining example of that). And before anyone says it - there are plenty in the National camp that get Tar'd with that same brush.

Left wing Politicians and activists alike seem to operate under a delusion of people behaving the way they think they ought to behave, as opposed for thinking that people will behave in their own best interests.

As for the Right, well - there are so very few proper Right wing politicians these days. Most of National could best be described as 'Labour Lite' - I mean if you compare National's policies now to the policies of Labour from the mid 90s, you'll see what I mean.

I will however point to Labour's Mantra - of a Kind and Compassionate Government, with total transparency and the first Well being Budget (god I nearly Vomited typing those words out) - and who suffers the most pain from direct result of Labours Policies? It's not the Multi-Millionaires, that's for sure.

Which brings me to the close point - the Paradox of Compassion: What is more compassionate? Letting one person screw themselves so that the rest of us don't suffer or screwing everyone over to fail to prevent that one person screwing themselves?

R650R

13th December 2022, 21:41

Handled like a true gentleman, gotta love the counter jibe about the apology that nz really wants to hear, classic!!!!!

Could you imagine if it was the other way around and he called her an AB?????

https://youtu.be/yWOpaN4PXg4

husaberg

13th December 2022, 22:11

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-10-2018/80zzGI.gif

TheDemonLord

14th December 2022, 06:27

To be fair, I've called Jacinda worse than an Arrogant Prick.

R650R

4th June 2023, 18:14

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132231427/act-party-launches-campaign-announces-new-ministry-of-regulation

husaberg

4th June 2023, 18:42

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132231427/act-party-launches-campaign-announces-new-ministry-of-regulation

As you seem like a big fan of him Can you list please Seymour's political achievements?
I cant actually find any he had a lot to do with the charter schools we all know what a disaster that was.

TheDemonLord

4th June 2023, 19:17

As you seem like a big fan of him Can you list please Seymour's political achievements?
I cant actually find any he had a lot to do with the charter schools we all know what a disaster that was.

Euthanasia.

R650R

4th June 2023, 22:12

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/132220276/act-is-on-the-brink-of-holding-some-power-what-does-that-mean

husaberg

4th June 2023, 23:36

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/132220276/act-is-on-the-brink-of-holding-some-power-what-does-that-mean
He been an MP for nearly 10 years hes done almost nothing. he gets a free ride like all his act predecessors from National in epson in the hope that national can use him having a electorate MP brings them in more support they would not get on their own. He's a grubby little parasite.

TheDemonLord

5th June 2023, 08:46

He been an MP for nearly 10 years hes done almost nothing. he gets a free ride like all his act predecessors from National in epson in the hope that national can use him having a electorate MP brings them in more support they would not get on their own. He's a grubby little parasite.

Oooooooo Someone is scared.

Good.

R650R

5th June 2023, 08:53

Oooooooo Someone is scared.

Good.

Hehe must be tough now he’s officially the third biggest political party with 12.5% in latest polls. People should take a moment to think about that, he has more clout than individually any of the Green, Maori or NZ First parties…
And it’s a big message to National to get their shit together too.
It’s a big shift towards No nanny state, no excess regulation, no softly stuff on crime.

husaberg

5th June 2023, 09:55

Hehe must be tough now he’s officially the third biggest political party with 12.5% in latest polls. People should take a moment to think about that, he has more clout than individually any of the Green, Maori or NZ First parties…
And it’s a big message to National to get their shit together too.
It’s a big shift towards No nanny state, no excess regulation, no softly stuff on crime.

Something he's done by taking disinfranised voters away only from National or fans of bad dancing TV
https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-10-2018/80zzGI.gifhttps://www.nzonscreen.com/content/images/0029/0479/Bloopers.jpg.540x405.jpg?v=1529992566
He's not done anything the greens the NZF or Social credit or Jim Anderton has not done previously, yes so this cponsidered he is clearly not some political genius.
Unless you want to admit admit the other are?
In 1993 the alliance party led by Jim Anderton got Alliance 350,064 votes or % 18.21 this allowed him to have almost 1/2 of the MPs that National did

IN 1996 Winstons party got 278,103 votes or 13.49%
2002 Winstons party NZ First 210,912 10.38% national only got 20.93% of the party vote that year...
The Act party even then was 7.4% of the party vote....

yet last election the act party only got 219,031 0r 7.59%
so in 20 years or 10 years under his leadership you political genius has gained .19% of the Party Vote

Seymour going on dancing on the stars to raise his profile and then dance badly was exactly what Rodney Hyde did before him.
So how about you list his accomplishments like i asked?
He never started his own party like other have done.
None of these other partys didn't get a free pass by national or any other party not standing people against him like national do for him and have done for his party from day one..
He only has a chance at real power if he's a king maker, considering he''s a de-facto member of the national party at all times they know he will vote with them anyway he will not have any real power even then as he will still be a minority bit player.
i look forward to the Seymour fanbois ignoring these facts....

TheDemonLord

5th June 2023, 10:01

Something he's done by taking disinfranised voters away only from National or fans of bad dancing TV
https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-10-2018/80zzGI.gifhttps://www.nzonscreen.com/content/images/0029/0479/Bloopers.jpg.540x405.jpg?v=1529992566
He's not done anything the greens the NZF or Social credit or Jim Anderton has not done previously, yes not some political genius.
going on dancing on the stars to raise his profile and then dance badly was exactly what Rodney Hyde did before him.
So how about you list his accomplishments like i asked?
None of these other partys didn't get a free pass by national not standing people against him like national do for him.

https://gumlet.assettype.com/afkgaming%2F2021-08%2F79649079-d0e7-4acd-853b-6a2b92797da3%2Fcopium_png.png

Aaaaaaaah smells good, doesn't it?

sugilite

5th June 2023, 17:51

Euthanasia.

An impressive list, and all within 10 years you say?

husaberg

5th June 2023, 18:20

An impressive list, and all within 10 years you say?

No prizes for guessing he was just lucky to have it drawn when their wasn't an evangelical Christian majority.
https://eolc.org.nz/history/
http://www.nathaniel.org.nz/21-bioethical-issues/bioethics-at-the-end-of-life/euthanasia/498-a-timeline-of-the-euthanasia-debate-in-new-zealand

oh look

Last year, a binding referendum held in conjunction with the general election resulted in the David Seymour-sponsored End Of Life Choice Act, a Bill modelled on Mr Laws’ original draft, being passed after gaining 65.2% support.
Mr Laws said given Labour, New Zealand First and Act New Zealand MPs had sponsored various attempts for euthanasia law reform it was an issue which transcended political and philosophical boundaries.

1 Netherlands Netherlands Passed by the States General 1 April 2002
2 Belgium Belgium Passed by the Belgian Federal Parliament 28 May 2002
3 Luxembourg Luxembourg Passed by the Chamber of Deputies 19 March 2009
4 Colombia Colombia Ruling of the Constitutional Court of Colombia 15 December 2014
5 Canada Canada Passed by the Parliament of Canada 17 June 2016
6 Spain Spain Passed by the Cortes Generales 25 June 2021
7 New Zealand New Zealand Passed by the Parliament of New Zealand and adopted in a referendum 6 November 2021

To recap, in 1995 then-National Party MP Michael Laws failed to convince the House that voluntary euthanasia should be legalised, with the Death with Dignity Bill falling short by a margin of 32 votes. New Zealand First MP Peter Brown got much closer in 2003, but his private member’s bill was defeated by one vote.

More recently, Labour MP Maryanne Street withdrew her End of Life Choice Bill in 2013 on the grounds that she did not want euthanasia to become a ballot box issue in the 2014 election. Post-election, Labour chose not to resubmit the bill.

Auckland, New Zealand – Voters in New Zealand are expected to have voted “yes” in a referendum to legalise euthanasia when preliminary results are announced on Friday, underlining the measure’s consistent support among the public and the backing of newly returned Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.

Polling has put support for the legislation, one of two referendums put to voters during the general election earlier this month, at above 60 percent. A “yes” vote will mean New Zealand joins a small group of nations and territories including the Netherlands and Canada that have legalised assisted dying.

The road to the End of Life Choice Bill, which took place at the same time as the election, began five years ago with lawyer Lecretia Seales.

After being diagnosed with a terminal brain tumour Seales wanted very much to remain alive, but her husband Matt Vickers says she was frustrated by the lack of personal autonomy for those facing terminal illnesses and the lack of political will to address the issue

TheDemonLord

5th June 2023, 18:39

An impressive list, and all within 10 years you say?

I mean there's others - but in terms of major policy (and as an aside - one I don't entirely agree with) - it's a pretty landmark piece of legislation.

And to Husa's point - other people did indeed try (and fail) to get it through.

But it was Seymour who was successful. Just like we remember who Sir Ed and Sherpa Tensing were, but not the poor sods that attempted before them.

sugilite

11th July 2023, 16:25

The cartoonist does have a point!

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/2/6/w/d/s/2/image.related.StuffThumbnailSixteenByNine.1600x900 .26wdst.png/1688978546903.jpg?

R650R

11th July 2023, 16:56

TheDemonLord

12th July 2023, 11:59

The cartoonist does have a point!

They would, if the type of 17 year old where there's a compelling argument for them to vote was the same type of 17 year old that was committing armed robbery.

Somehow though (and I'm going out on a limb here) - I don't think that's the case.

sugilite

12th July 2023, 12:28

Oh yes, lets have a "type" of person that is allowed to vote :laugh:

husaberg

12th July 2023, 12:53

Well for violent offences surely yes….

As for voting younger minds are easily lead by populist rhetoric that makes up most political movements.

What would happen say another generation fully indoctrinated in the climate cult saddled with the cost of looking after us old boomers when someone runs on a non voluntary euthanasia policy to save the planet etc….????

You always seem to attempt to deflect actual truths
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/03/revealed-uk-children-ensnared-far-right-ecosystem-online

An insidious “far-right ecosystem” is targeting children in an attempt to radicalise them online, with experts warning that progressively younger school pupils are becoming ensnared in extremist ideologies, a Guardian investigation has found.

pritch

13th July 2023, 13:11

Well for violent offences surely yes….

That is already the law. If the offence meets the criteria kids can be sent to prison. I'm not sure how that works though.

A girl, given a bottle of vodka by grandma and told to have a good time, murdered a guy with a hammer. Completely unprovoked. She was sent to a youth justice facility.

A guy with a long youth justice crime record entered a house, held a knife the the wife's throat and told the husband to get the money or he'd kill the wife. He got the big house. When he was to be sentenced the judge ordered that his co-offenders be in the court. The idea was that they would be impressed by the seriousness and the severity of the sentence. That was optimistic. When questioned immediately afterwards they had no understanding of what had happened It had to be explained to them by the social workers.

Both of these offenders will be free long since. Unless they've offended again.

The ex Inspector that used to run the Auckland Crime Show on TV (Police Ten7) said that many offenders were educationally sub normal. No argument from me.

Grumph

13th July 2023, 13:59

Don't be misled by what you see on TV. A Youth Justice facility is to all intents a prison. With - for the serious offenders - a commensurate level of security.
I worked at the old ChCh Kingsley facility. As support staff - no interaction with the kids at all.
But if for any reason i had to go into the secure unit it was full prison level security.

What you see on TV - the fights - are a lower level offender held in a different part of the unit. I'd compare it to cage hens vs barn hens.

Some of the youth offenders score very highly on intelligence tests. Most don't.

If 17 yo are to be given the vote, I'd make it such that they have to ask for it individually. That IMO would sort the interested from the dgaf group.

Berries

14th July 2023, 10:25

Oh yes, lets have a "type" of person that is allowed to vote :laugh:
We do.

People who think it makes any difference.

nerrrd

25th July 2023, 09:50

pete376403

25th July 2023, 12:26

R650R

25th July 2023, 15:35

I have some questions about the latest transport policy from Act.

Aren't all the roads already being built and maintained by private contractors? Or is the idea to bring in foreign companies to be in competition with the local ones? How would that be an economical option for the foreign company considering how far away we are from anywhere, unless they use local labour and materials (and contractors)?

I understand that tolls can help cover the costs of building and maintaining roads over time, but how does that help you pay for the construction of the road in the first place? The level of return from tolling would have to be set at a level that the local economy can sustain, which is going to be much lower than most foreign companies are used to.

The initial cost would have to be financed somehow, wouldn't a government have a lot more borrowing power than a commercial enterprise?

If what they're saying is tolls can help fund maintaining the roads, that makes sense to me. But surely that maintenance is only ever going to be done by the same local companies doing it now. How you get them to do a better job would be the crucial question, just giving them more money I suspect is not going to solve the issue.

Foreign investor involvement in building our roads is a surely a pipe dream, there won't be enough of a return in it for them. Unless the Chinese decide spending a whole lot of their own money in NZ is a good idea...altruistically, of course.

It’s the way the rest of the world does it on big jobs. It’s the power of having all the gear ready to go vs the likes of Higgins or Fulton hogan having to get around to ordering 20 each of new motor graders, bulldozers haul trucks etc. Plus it’s the management experience of knowing how to make a big project work.
Even in the likes of USA another company from out of state sometimes travels thousands of miles to do an important job because they have the collective skill set to make it all happen on time.
Funding would prob be the 50/50 public private model national proposed.
Tolls are pure cashflow which any business loves.
Even at a modest 2$ toll on 10,000 vehicles a day is $7.3 million a year.
It’s a bit like the home handyman vs getting a professional tradie in to do job quickly and better.

All that aside I think we really should bring back ministry of works as an infrastructure civilian engineer army and give all our troubled youth some purpose and skills. Flood protection works alone has decades or work let alone the roads as well.

pete376403

25th July 2023, 15:59

It’s the way the rest of the world does it on big jobs. It’s the power of having all the gear ready to go vs the likes of Higgins or Fulton hogan having to get around to ordering 20 each of new motor graders, bulldozers haul trucks etc. Plus it’s the management experience of knowing how to make a big project work.
Even in the likes of USA another company from out of state sometimes travels thousands of miles to do an important job because they have the collective skill set to make it all happen on time.
Funding would prob be the 50/50 public private model national proposed.
Tolls are pure cashflow which any business loves.
Even at a modest 2$ toll on 10,000 vehicles a day is $7.3 million a year.
It’s a bit like the home handyman vs getting a professional tradie in to do job quickly and better.

All that aside I think we really should bring back ministry of works as an infrastructure civilian engineer army and give all our troubled youth some purpose and skills. Flood protection works alone has decades or work let alone the roads as well.

Professionals (architects, engineers, project managers and tradies) were in the main responsible for the leaky homes fiasco. I agree about the MoW - the big hydros were mainly MoW and they seemed to have worked well

pzkpfw

22nd September 2023, 09:58

george formby

22nd September 2023, 10:33

He wants to pay Doctors for taking on more patients.. No detail was given with that statement but it gave me pause for thought as to how that would effect the quality of health care and training for future GP's.

pzkpfw

22nd September 2023, 11:51

I'm pretty sure Doctors (the whole health care area really) don't think they're paid enough for the patients they already see!

george formby

22nd September 2023, 11:56

I'm pretty sure Doctors (the whole health care area really) don't think they're paid enough for the patients they already see!

Exacary. I know a couple of Doctors and they are incredibly frustrated, they have been for a long time.

R650R

23rd September 2023, 14:00

So ACT want to raise the pension age to 67.

Might be a good idea, but that's not what (most) people vote for; (most) people vote for immediate personal benefit (like, lower taxes (and screw whatever they paid for)).

ACT has been polling well, will this affect it?

They do riots in France ...

It would take 8 years to take effect as they plan to add on 3 months each year. I work with many guys close to retirement age and many choose to keep working part time anyway for fitness and social contact, sense of purpose etc.
If you’re relying solely on that pension money at 65 you’re already in a world of misery anyway. It’s prob not an issue for many due to private pensions/super funds/investments and maybe even a younger partner who is still working.
The money saved would be used to pay down debt and improve standard of living.
The alternative world is a labour lead welfare crime ridden country where it’s not safe to walk to shops or doctor in your old age.
My fav bit of the minority power brokers debate was David costed out the extra prison beds for keeping ratbags in jail. It’s only a dollar a day for every nz person in tax.

pete376403

23rd September 2023, 14:42

It would take 8 years to take effect as they plan to add on 3 months each year. I work with many guys close to retirement age and many choose to keep working part time anyway for fitness and social contact, sense of purpose etc.
If you’re relying solely on that pension money at 65 you’re already in a world of misery anyway. It’s prob not an issue for many due to private pensions/super funds/investments and maybe even a younger partner who is still working.
The money saved would be used to pay down debt and improve standard of living.
The alternative world is a labour lead welfare crime ridden country where it’s not safe to walk to shops or doctor in your old age.
My fav bit of the minority power brokers debate was David costed out the extra prison beds for keeping ratbags in jail. It’s only a dollar a day for every nz person in tax.

Superannuations as a sole income isn't the immediate kiss of death. My wife and I are both receiving super, no other income and living pretty well thanks. Helps to have no debt, no mortgage, no HPs etc. Asset rich (house is worth silly amounts) but quite happy where we are, cash not-so-poor, reasonably late model car, 3 bikes. Suppose it depends how well or how badly you ran you life prior to retirement

pritch

25th September 2023, 16:39

So ACT want to raise the pension age to 67.

That, like most other ACT policies, doesn't seem thought through. Retirement at 67 is fine for sedentary workers but for people doing hard physical work, and who have bodies giving out after years of repetitive strain, it's too old. Because a high proportion of Maori and Pacifica are involved in physical work and will be effected by this change it will likely be perceived as racist. Allowances for early retirement need to be included.

Still, it's an odd idea to float as a vote winner. Looking at the people flocking to Luxon, Peters' and Seymour's meetings though, suggests they already have their super.

pritch

25th September 2023, 16:47

The alternative world is a labour lead welfare crime ridden country where it’s not safe to walk to shops or doctor in your old age.

You need to stop taking those drugs. This is rated one of the very safest countries on earth. That doesn't mean nothing bad happens, but it does mean things are worse nearly everywhere else. That line is put out by cynical politicians because there is a chunk of the population will believe any crap they throw them.

R650R

25th September 2023, 21:49

You need to stop taking those drugs. This is rated one of the very safest countries on earth. That doesn't mean nothing bad happens, but it does mean things are worse nearly everywhere else. That line is put out by cynical politicians because there is a chunk of the population will believe any crap they throw them.

No that line is put out by people who remember what NZ was like 20 years ago. Since then failures by both sides have let things run away in particular the message of the last six years of “we are going to lower imprisonment rates, be kind, no police pursuits etc”

R650R

26th September 2023, 20:32

Two people talk about Act party

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3c_x_5oRnk&pp=ygUQdGUgYW8gd2l0aCBtb2FuYQ%3D%3D

sugilite

27th September 2023, 09:27

I actually don't mind Seymour as a person, his policies not so much.
Wants to make cuts all over the show to social spending. but strangely not interested in looking at tightening up laws on large companies dodging tax which would bring in mega bucks to the tax take. Pffft

I spose the rich and powerful types might be able to look forward to a higher quality hand-job under the table than the slightly less quality version they have been getting for the last 6 years. :oi-grr:

husaberg

27th September 2023, 17:22

I actually don't mind Seymour as a person, his policies not so much.
Wants to make cuts all over the show to social spending. but strangely not interested in looking at tightening up laws on large companies dodging tax which would bring in mega bucks to the tax take. Pffft

I wonder how much his huge advertising budget is founded by those same big business interests.....

pritch

27th September 2023, 20:50

No that line is put out by people who remember what NZ was like 20 years ago. Since then failures by both sides have let things run away in particular the message of the last six years of “we are going to lower imprisonment rates, be kind, no police pursuits etc”

Last year we were still second safest country on earth, or fourth, depending which survey is quoted. Luxon and Seymour are spouting rubbish for the simple minded.

R650R

27th September 2023, 21:46

Last year we were still second safest country on earth, or fourth, depending which survey is quoted. Luxon and Seymour are spouting rubbish for the simple minded.

Yeah it’s prob safer here than downtown Mogadishu. But I want the safety we had before labour let it all run riot

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/133011404/car-stealing-youths-livestreamed-attempted-escape-from-police

Last month, Stuff revealed how youths were to blame for an unprecedented spike in car thefts in Christchurch.

In July, nearly 600 vehicles were stolen in the city – numbers never before seen by officers who’ve been in the job for decades.

Officials throughout the justice system are growing increasingly worried about the threat the troublesome youths pose, not only to themselves, but to innocent members of the public.

At the time, Todd said he believed it was only a matter of time until someone was killed.

R650R

28th September 2023, 08:08

Make of this what you may from Yahoo finance. At the end of the article it said it was AI generated and reviewed by an editor

As the New Zealand general elections scheduled for October 14 approach, the right-wing ACT Party is gaining significant traction, which could potentially influence the formation of the next government. The party, led by David Seymour, has seen a surge in popularity that may result in a shift of power, according to recent polls.

David Seymour, who gained public recognition through his participation in a popular dance competition show, is positioned to hold a key role in the ensuing administration. According to projections from recent polls, if the current ruling Labour Party is unseated, Seymour might ascend to a high-ranking position within the new government. His roles could range from a senior ministerial position to possibly even deputy prime minister.

The strong polling performance of Seymour's ACT Party suggests that their support would be crucial for the National Party to establish a governing coalition. This scenario underscores the increasing political significance of the ACT Party in New Zealand's electoral landscape. The potential shift in power indicates an evolving political climate as voters prepare for the upcoming elections on Monday.

sugilite

28th September 2023, 08:48

I would say most of the information the AI used is a bit out of date. As of right now NZ first looks to hold that political spot that act owned a few short weeks ago.

pete376403

28th September 2023, 09:11

All of these polls - even though there is only one that really counts. However I have NEVER been polled for my political opinion. Anyone here ever been asked? Do they only poll to landline phones? That would mean they are only asking older (ie conservative, National /NZ First / ACT) supporting people. Young people don't have landlines, and many of them wont even answer a voice call to their mobiles, preferring only to communicate (?) by text

neels

28th September 2023, 09:23

Anyone here ever been asked? Do they only poll to landline phones? That would mean they are only asking older (ie conservative, National /NZ First / ACT) supporting people. Young people don't have landlines, and many of them wont even answer a voice call to their mobiles, preferring only to communicate (?) by text
Yes I've been asked, there are a variety of online polls that cover this, I'm probably not helping being that I'm one of the definitely undecided voters in that I don't really like any of them at the moment.

One thing that makes me wonder is how the poll results are extrapolated to come up with the number of seats graphic they so love on the telly news, are the 10-12% undecided just ignored or proportionally allocated to the other results?

The two different approaches could give very different answers, depending on the reason why people are undecided, and if one of the parties hits the magic policy to get their votes.

Anyway, more importantly it's time to figure out the rules for the election night drinking game, usually more entertaining than the election itself.

pete376403

30th September 2023, 10:47

Yes I've been asked, there are a variety of online polls that cover this, I'm probably not helping being that I'm one of the definitely undecided voters in that I don't really like any of them at the moment.

One thing that makes me wonder is how the poll results are extrapolated to come up with the number of seats graphic they so love on the telly news, are the 10-12% undecided just ignored or proportionally allocated to the other results?

The two different approaches could give very different answers, depending on the reason why people are undecided, and if one of the parties hits the magic policy to get their votes.

Anyway, more importantly it's time to figure out the rules for the election night drinking game, usually more entertaining than the election itself.

If you start by flagging every time Luxon says "actually" you'll be pissed long before the end of the night https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/498911/hipkins-vs-luxon-the-one-word-christopher-luxon-said-76-times-in-newshub-s-debate#:~:text=A%20fired%20up%20Chris%20Hipkins,ti mes%20by%20National's%20Christopher%20Luxon.

pritch

30th September 2023, 11:17

However I have NEVER been polled for my political opinion. Anyone here ever been asked?

Yes, years ago. Once it became apparent which political party was behind the poll I gave answers I hoped they wouldn't like. Again last week pollsters called, but I was in the middle of dinner so I declined to participate.

Do they only poll to landline phones?

I believe this is the case. Certainly both of the calls I received were to the landline

R650R

1st October 2023, 08:02

Don’t consider myself young but it’s standard practice in todays world not to answer an unknown number that’s likely a telemarketer. If it’s important the person will leave a message or txt and then you phone them back.
People lead different lives these days out cycling/gym/DIY on second property etc after work they not all sitting around having beer watching six o click news and coronation street like old days during week.
I think lot of polls also happen door to door for good tv news quotes if it’s a media outlet polling.

Back to Seymour he’s throwing himself u der the bus with his Winston fascination. But is it a tactic to trick people to vote ACT to try keep Winston out????

sugilite

1st October 2023, 10:43

R650R

1st October 2023, 11:39

when Luxon was asked about Peters in the leaders debate, he pulled the old trump "I don't know him", thus attracting a well deserved round of laughter of derision from the audience - what a pillock :pinch:

If you are right R650, and it is a seymour plan to get more votes, it does not look to be working. I stand to be corrected after the election of course.

Yes indeed that was a careless remark by Luxon dig himself a whole there. He’s gonna need some lube when Winston calls lol Stuffs cartoon with the two of them on horse is on point hilarious.

pete376403

1st October 2023, 16:49

Yes indeed that was a careless remark by Luxon dig himself a whole there. He’s gonna need some lube when Winston calls lol Stuffs cartoon with the two of them on horse is on point hilarious.

If its anything like the graphic of putin and trump , shirtless, on horseback, it's horrible

pritch

5th October 2023, 09:16

Don’t consider myself young but it’s standard practice in todays world not to answer an unknown number that’s likely a telemarketer.

Brings to mind the case of the missing American tramper. The search and rescue people who were searching for him were calling his phone but there was no answer.
When he was eventually found he was asked why he hadn't answered his phone. "It was an unknown number."

When I first read that I thought he was crazy. I still think he was an idiot but it seems to be an epidemic.

R650R

5th October 2023, 10:34

Brings to mind the case of the missing American tramper. The search and rescue people who were searching for him were calling his phone but there was no answer.
When he was eventually found he was asked why he hadn't answered his phone. "It was an unknown number."

When I first read that I thought he was crazy. I still think he was an idiot but it seems to be an epidemic.

If he was actually “lost” wouldn’t he be dialling out on 911? Without knowing the details sounds like he was maybe overdue and they were trying to check up. Did they try texting???
It’s also the number one way to stop getting scammed as you never start a conversation with scammer to start with.
You grew up in an era where people respected phones even though you could easily look someone’s number up in phone book.
Nowadays the gas company/electric/researchers et Al are 24/7 trying to contact people. Your phone is the new front door to your home life. You don’t open front door after dark to people you don’t know, you observe their actions from another angle before deciding a course of action. Call screening is exactly the same.
Awhile ago an Uncle was organising an impromptu family event. Despite having my real phone number and knowing where I lived he contacted me via FB messenger. Now I don’t use FB every day and I don’t use the messenger app due to its terms so won’t see that unless I log in.
He got upset about that and couldn’t deal with it where as the younger nieces and nephews knew how the world works now.
You can call it what you want but there are 7 Billion people in the world, a few calls are going to go unanswered for a variety of reasons. Just look at the great President Biden , do you see him stopping mid press conference to answer phone calls???

george formby

5th October 2023, 11:03

R650R

5th October 2023, 11:57

I always answer unknown numbers in the hope that my computer has a virus again. My best is about 27 minutes of time wasting.

Had a few lately trying to sell me investment products, very sharp telemarketers but not smart enough. Only managed 15 minutes so far.:ar15:

I’ve used the Seinfeld line few times and also said excuse me and left them hanging on the hook for 20mins to block one of their lines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRh1CMC3OVw&pp=ygUUU2VpbmZlbGQgdGVsZW1hcmt0ZXI%3D

pritch

6th October 2023, 08:15

If he was actually “lost” wouldn’t he be dialling out on 911? Without knowing the details sounds like he was maybe overdue and they were trying to check up. Did they try texting???

Evidently not?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hiker-lost-24-hours-ignored-rescuers-calls-because-they-didn-n1282381

sugilite

6th October 2023, 14:32

R650R

7th October 2023, 10:16

OK, I know polls are not worth the cyber server space they are stored on, but the latest one has seymour plummeting somewhat.
I now wonder if I should swallow a dead rat and party vote act to do my bit to keep winston out as it would be absolute chaos with nat/act/win coalition, or piss away a vote on labor, who I'm also deeply unimpressed with. Decisions decisions.

When writing this post I spelt seymours name wrong and I just had to share with you all what my spell checker suggested as the correction - gold :lol:
https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/titmouse.jpg

In the latest poll:

National was at 35.9%
Labour was at 27.9%
The Greens were at 10.6%
And ACT was down to 9.1%
Te Pāti Māori would bring in more MPs, with 3.7% - as long as it wins an electorate.

That would shape Parliament with:
National overtaking Labour, taking 46 seats in the House.
Labour returning with 35 seats.
The Greens bringing in a few extra MPs, with 13 seats.
ACT returning with 12 seats.
Te Pāti Māori more than doubling its share, with five seats.
And NZ First mounting a comeback, gaining nine seats.

I find it interesting that all the what some would call extreme left or right minority parties are all at ten percent or much less.
And how many of them are protest votes like yours somewhat.
Seymour’s mistake was his childish dismissal of Winston. Kiwis don’t like you bagging other people even if they don’t like the other guy. We want to hear about how things will be fixed. Seymour got a bit punchdrunk on his successful rise and stopped thinking…
I find it interesting how Maori party is starting to disappear. Every time that Waititi fella talks he just comes across as more extreme and everything is about them and not New Zealand. Same with tamihere who used to sound quite promising.
17% of pipulation but struggling to get 4% vote.
John key put out a good message everyone needs to vote. A lot of people won’t bother to vote if they think their party will win anyway. And at the other end it’s also been proven people won’t waste a vote on a party they think will lose so they might vote for a minor party. So even if I was Luxon I wouldn’t be confident what will play out.
Interestingly I was watching the state owned news channel by accident and they edited the minor leaders debate highlights in quite biased fashion. Wonder how many watch the debate full vs news and should this type of editing be allowed.
Winston’s latest gig is to reopen Marsden point for energy security, that’s gotta be worth a few votes.

pete376403

7th October 2023, 10:28

Winston’s latest gig is to reopen Marsden point for energy security, that’s gotta be worth a few votes.

How does winston imagine he's going to do that? Planning on nationalising the refinery? t's a privately owned asset with BP, Mobil and Z Energy as major shareholders

"The Refinery assets were transferred by the Government to the New Zealand Refining Company Limited, a consortium of the five major petrol retailers. BP, Mobil and Z Energy are currently major shareholders." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsden_Point_Oil_Refinery

sugilite

7th October 2023, 14:26

george formby

7th October 2023, 15:56

Well, they say ignorance is bliss, so I must be really fuggen happy, but I not long ago found that nz actually produces very high grade oil in the taranaki. All of it gets exported. Pull a zimbabwei on the owners arses and move marsdon point refinery equipment to the Taranaki and refine nz oil for nz'ers and get us independent of the evil oil cartels. I simply do not even see the beginning of having the infrastructure to go full EV for a great many years.

I knew we had very good oil and it always puzzled me why we import so much. You have hit on what is on my mind, resilience.

The contenders for Miss New Zealand 2023 are either offering us a better bank balance gained from foreign investment and social / infrastructure cuts or a better place to live, regardless of how screwed up you are, with less houses than hoped and cheaper fruit. Maybe.

Nobody is talking about the shit fight which is inexorably coming our way, just trying to get votes with dumb slogans and soundbites.

I have no idea how to vote, not a Statesman or spine amongst them.

pete376403

8th October 2023, 09:36

FLUB

9th October 2023, 21:04

Taranaki oil is high grade light machine oil not suitable to refine for fuel.

There is no refining equipment to bring down from Marsden Point. It's all been scrapped. Which is also why Marsden Point cannot be reopened. Also because the first thing they did was pump concrete into the pipes.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

neels

10th October 2023, 09:31

I now wonder if I should swallow a dead rat and party vote act to do my bit to keep winston out as it would be absolute chaos with nat/act/win coalition, or piss away a vote on labor, who I'm also deeply unimpressed with. Decisions decisions.

That seems to be what it's coming down to, if there's going to be a change of government or Labour have really pissed you off and can't stomach voting National, then go Act to keep Winston out.

Act are still tending towards their traditional leave the less fortunate to work harder or starve, and remove restrictions on businesses wanting to exploit the environment and their workers
National are trying to buy votes with a bit more cash for those who don't need it, and better roads to get you and your SUV to your holiday home faster.
Labour seem to be circling the fishbowl on their side, while proposing a bunch of inconsequential things they've had 6 years to do but haven't
Greens favourite policy is wealth tax (more or less eat the rich), taxing you on the value of the thing you own, that you bought with money that had already been income and GST taxed
Maori party appear to be wanting to introduce apartheid, with different policies and privileges depending on your ethnicity.
TOP are a bit vague on everything, but it has been suggested they could make parliament by having a good electorate candidate.

It's unfortunate that the McGillicuddy Serious Party doesn't still exist, they'd probably do quite well this time around due to a lack of viable alternatives

jim.cox

10th October 2023, 09:42

It's unfortunate that the McGillicuddy Serious Party doesn't still exist, they'd probably do quite well

Their policy of "The Great Leap Backwards" (ie a forcible return to a Jacobean lifestyle) still appeals

husaberg

10th October 2023, 17:11

Thats been (pretty) common knowlege for a long time. Reasoning that I saw was that the very high quality Taranaki crude earns more than it costs to import and refine lower grade stuff. The difference goes to the shareholders.

The plant that was there in the naki was the natural gas to Methanol to High octane petrol plant.
it was for a start 75% owned by the GOvt.

Also known as Synfuel, a holding company established as a joint venture by the New Zealand Government in order to build the Motunui synthetic fuel plant in Taranaki, as part of the 'Think Big' projects of the 1980s. The government owned 75% of the company and Mobil Oil New Zealand Ltd, the plant builder and operator, held the other 25%.

The government sold its shareholding in Synfuel to Fletcher Challenge Corporation in 1990; subsequently ownership passed to Methanex Corporation of Canada.

The company was renamed Methanex Motonui Limited on 8 April 1993 and Methanex New Zealand Limited in January 2016.
Together, the facilities can produce up to 6,500 tonnes of methanol a day..
Pretty sure it just exports methanol now

R650R

10th October 2023, 22:44

That seems to be what it's coming down to, if there's going to be a change of government or Labour have really pissed you off and can't stomach voting National, then go Act to keep Winston out.

Act are still tending towards their traditional leave the less fortunate to work harder or starve, and remove restrictions on businesses wanting to exploit the environment and their workers
National are trying to buy votes with a bit more cash for those who don't need it, and better roads to get you and your SUV to your holiday home faster.
Labour seem to be circling the fishbowl on their side, while proposing a bunch of inconsequential things they've had 6 years to do but haven't
Greens favourite policy is wealth tax (more or less eat the rich), taxing you on the value of the thing you own, that you bought with money that had already been income and GST taxed
Maori party appear to be wanting to introduce apartheid, with different policies and privileges depending on your ethnicity.
TOP are a bit vague on everything, but it has been suggested they could make parliament by having a good electorate candidate.

It's unfortunate that the McGillicuddy Serious Party doesn't still exist, they'd probably do quite well this time around due to a lack of viable alternatives

You’re right about Labour not managed to do a damn thing of consequence compared to promises.

Our exporters need good roads though, airplanes and ships have cut off times for export freight. We are a small player so we need to make up our appeal by having great service getting products to export customers on time. That means good roads for all parts of the supply chain and even allowing workers a better work life balance with faster transport optioned.

Labour and National are both to scared to lose their traditional base by fronting the bold policies we need to improve.

pete376403

11th October 2023, 08:11

The plant that was there in the naki was the natural gas to Methanol to High octane petrol plant.
it was for a start 75% owned by the GOvt.
Pretty sure it just exports methanol now

Yes but the OP was about moving the Marsden Point refinery to Taranaki, and why does the Taranaki crude get exported rather than refined here.

husaberg

11th October 2023, 18:57

Yes but the OP was about moving the Marsden Point refinery to Taranaki, and why does the Taranaki crude get exported rather than refined here.
I was pointing out that we used to produce fuel their from methane.
this is what is said about naki oil

1. Oil
High quality 'sweet' and ‘light’ condensates that predominate in NZ conditions find premium prices on the international market, and are almost entirely exported - mostly to refineries in Australia and Singapore, where it is refined into petroleum.
‘Sweet’ means our oil is relatively free of sulfur compounds, and ‘light’ means it flows freely and is light in colour – a relatively pure oil.
I'd personally suggest its more about scale of production and closeness of end users than any unsuitability of the oil.
its likely bended with lower grade oil overseas.

pete376403

19th November 2024, 14:48

Ocean1

19th November 2024, 15:09

R650R

19th November 2024, 15:26

The treaty protest hikoi has been and gone. What a total waste of time and resources, when Luxon said previously it would not be supporting the bill past the first reading - along with labour, greens, and maori party absolutely no chance of going further. Just a redneck dogwhistle from ACT. How many police hours have been wasted, how much work has been disrupted by traffic delays? Not blaming the hikoi marchers, they had to show opposition.

If there’s any “dog whistling” it’s from an irresponsible media in this country. David’s popular recent quote is pertinent “they say kill the bill I say read the bill”.
The treaty is in no danger and will not be altered even if the bill got anywhere.

Here’s what the bill is about. In 1975 one of courts ruled that the principles of the treaty must be upheld etc… However they failed to define the “principles”. This is very important in legal world as everytime someone is upset about principles related treaty matters a lot of court time is used and the principles being unknown are not be fairly or consistently applied in judgements.
The bill just says hey let’s sit down and define what the principles are.
If anything Maori might end up with more or clearer understanding of any treaty rights.

None of this would have happened if the previous regime hadn’t thrown the word principles around like candy in order to get votes.

To David’s credit he fronted up outside ready to talk today but they weren’t interested in any dialogue says it all. And let’s not forget Jacinda just ignored last big protest to turn up.

We all want to honour the principles of the treaty but it’s going to be hard if we can’t sit down to agree what they are.

TheDemonLord

19th November 2024, 15:36

So, having read the proposed bill, I have issues with the first section:

"The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws. They do so in the best interests of everyone, and in accordance with the rule of law and the maintenance of a free and democratic society."

I do not like Governments having full power to govern. Especially when they invoke "the best interests of everyone"... I would much rather have something in here about Natural Rights (Right to free speech, Bodily autonomy, Self-defense, bear arms etc.) - especially after the global farce that was Covid.

However, the ethos of the Bill I support: No where has laws, based on racial groups, ended well.

I have been disapointed by the opposition to this bill, in terms of their failure to articulate exactly what their issues are with it (I mean, I know what the activist opposition to it is are - but they won't say them outright) - from the regular people who are opposed to it, the level of debate has been disapointing.

To answer the question was it worth it: Well, Civil Unions were legal in 2004 and it took till 2013 to have same sex marriage. Before that there were legal cases way back in 1996.

It seems to me that for big issues, sometimes you need large-scale public debate, and in the end, it is usually worth it.

Berries

19th November 2024, 16:06

I liked the pretty flags and the half naked dancing.

SaferRides

19th November 2024, 21:03

Seymour has managed to do more for Maori unity than any other politician. Could be interesting to see how this ends.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

Ocean1

19th November 2024, 21:22

Berries

20th November 2024, 07:35

While the minority marched I think the majority posted comments under this video.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Pl1iZbqlN7c?si=QyFSU2IGjwXrDnRx" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jellywrestler

20th November 2024, 07:47

the displays of anger and vitriol instead of basic discussion and explaining it seems to indicate a lack of a real reasoning and actually having a decent case to put forward for a fair balanced hearing to be decided on.
Didn't Eminem get more people than this last time he was in wellington?

pritch

20th November 2024, 08:06

Not a fan of democracy I see.

Welcome back. It's been a while?

HenryDorsetCase

20th November 2024, 09:32

Not stupid. But a calculating neo-fascist. He needs to get in the bin.

HenryDorsetCase

20th November 2024, 09:33

Democracy is the worst system of government ever, except for every other system that's ever been tried.

It allowed, for example the removal of the last govt that failed to do what they were elected to do. It'll probably keep doing it until either a govt is elected that does listen to the majority or a govt is elected that destroys democratic process altogether.

The one where I am in charge of everything is the best one but only theoretically at this point. That will change. I am bringing back the Roman empire, baby. Nero, not Augustus or Marcus.

nerrrd

20th November 2024, 10:42

jellywrestler

20th November 2024, 11:09

Is there some crisis looming there that I'm not aware of?

think the word is apartheid by the sound of it

Berries

20th November 2024, 12:58

think the word is apartheid by the sound of it
Perish the thought.

Whatever next, race based rugby teams?

Ocean1

20th November 2024, 15:17

Ocean1

20th November 2024, 15:25

Welcome back. It's been a while?

Cheers, aye, little personal improvement though. Just doing the Mr Toad thing as far as my meager resources allow...

Grumph

20th November 2024, 16:44

JimO

20th November 2024, 17:07

As a fifth generation NZ'er I have no problem admitting Maori to positions of responsibility. Or the existence of support agencies for their use.
Even a cursory look at the health and crime statistics will show these agencies are needed.

someone needs to beat the babies to death

HenryDorsetCase

20th November 2024, 20:23

Will there be orgies, Mr Caligula?

Definitely! Orgies, sports, christians v lions. I will play the violin a bit. It'll be epic!

jellywrestler

20th November 2024, 21:25

I suspect reading this that for some reason your family ended up in the wrong country. I sympathise and suggest you make the best of it.

Seymore is a racist maori basher. Defining the treaty limits as he wishes to do is simply the first step toward denying the rights inherent to the treaty.
Once you manage that we become Australia who never acknowledged the indigenous people formally. And to this day keep them in position as
second class citizens. Seymore would be right at home in Australia.

As a fifth generation NZ'er I have no problem admitting Maori to positions of responsibility. Or the existence of support agencies for their use.
Even a cursory look at the health and crime statistics will show these agencies are needed.

I note you use the word racist and then you demonstrate you too are racist Greg. Bear with me. I hate people using that word for so many things and I believe it is not a bad thing to be racist when the word is used correctly.
If you stick a light skinned person, a dark skinned person and a midway coloured person out in the same sun for two hurs and expect the same result then you are a fool. There are many different things about different races simply.
Discriminating against someone for a feature or trait etc is racial prejudism, and that is wrong,
People say we are the same but we are not, you don't have to dig far in our health stats to find that some races are stronger in some areas, and some have weak spots.
Some dictionaries will define racism as how i explained, some not

TheDemonLord

21st November 2024, 07:07

Seymore is a racist maori basher. Defining the treaty limits as he wishes to do is simply the first step toward denying the rights inherent to the treaty.

Okay - Just one question: Which Principle does this? Becuase Principle two seems to explicitly guarantee the rights inherent in the treaty.

Once you manage that we become Australia who never acknowledged the indigenous people formally. And to this day keep them in position as
second class citizens. Seymore would be right at home in Australia.

When the Indigenous people of Australia engageed in Tribal warfare within each other - Have they formally acknowledged any of this? Of course not.

For the entirety of Human history, Every single culture on earth operated in this manner, that the spoils of war were the right of the victor by conquest. Maori, Aborignal included

Until the British thought that maybe this was a little unsporting and decided that Treaties were a better way.

As a fifth generation NZ'er I have no problem admitting Maori to positions of responsibility.

Neither, so long as those positions are earned on the basis of Merit, as opposed to the basis of Genetics.

Or the existence of support agencies for their use.
Even a cursory look at the health and crime statistics will show these agencies are needed.

The last part, is perhaps where I take the biggest umbrage:

The notion that the Maori are so dissimilar to people like me as to need special agencies to decrease their participation in crime statistics is the most fundamentally Racist idea.

It is to justify, under the law, different treatment - based on Race.

I do not believe Maori are so dissimilar to people like me as to need special government agencies.

pritch

21st November 2024, 07:35

MMP gives us MPs that better represent the population than did the FPTP system. Accordingly, just as there are imbeciles in the general population, we now have imbeciles in Parliament. I have no problem with that haka. Any significant moment can be an occasion for a haka and that surely was one such. My objection relates to the fact that one of the Maori MPs, from his hat to his sneakers, was dressed like a total clown. Alas the photo doesn't show his jersey or the items he had around his neck.

Presumably he feels the rules of Parliament don't apply to him. He should be given a copy of the dress code and if he turns up not in compliance he should be told to fuck off. If he complains that his constituents are being denied representation he should be told his constituents need to elect somebody who can dress themselves.

TheDemonLord

21st November 2024, 07:37

The haka does make me cringe, every time. But then I'm a first generation kiwi, and Maoritanga was pretty much invisible in my education (I think we learned to count to five maybe?) I've never had any desire to learn about it, I think I managed one anthropology paper at university, and that may have been one of the exams I accidentally on purpose didn't bother to sit. But I don't feel any particular affinity for Pakeha/NZ culture either, church services make me cringe (and don't get me started on that coronation), not particularly interested in farming, rugby, drinking beer, hunting and fishing, yachting, never had a buzzy bee etc etc. Fred Dagg was funny at the time, though. Is being a-cultural a thing?

Anyway, for the above reason I don't really follow what's happening with the Treaty particularly closely, but hasn't it been chugging along in the background quite happily for a few decades now? Is there some crisis looming there that I'm not aware of?

I like the Haka, but in Parliment, it was innappropriate. So far I have listened to the former director of the Waitangi Tribunal, A leader of the Hokoi, Read the Greens submission to stop the bill, Read the template forms for automated submissions (which I trust will be summarily ignored and counted as a single submission - in the same way that happened for the Firearms law changes...)

The arguments against the bill are:

- It will strip Maori of Rights... But when asked what part will do this or how it will do this, the only answer they are able to give is that David Seymour is racist.
- It is bad because the Government departments were reverted back to their english names.
- ???

Considering the level of opposition to this Bill, the lack of well-reasoned debate is shocking and disapointing.

To answer the last question is the interesting part.

First - we need to look here: Decolonization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decolonization). If you take a look a cursory look through the Wikipedia article (which has a soft-left bias) - you will notice my favorite bugbear: Marxism.

Te Pati Maori believe in Decolonization.

There are two sides to this - and to be fair to them, it is important to express both.

There is the version of Decolonization that is the 'nice' version and what is widely pushed out: That we should embrace Maori culture and right the wrongs of the past.

And for the most part, there is little in that version of Decolonization that the average person can disagree with.

But the problem is that there is another version of Decolonzation - the one whose entire goal is to tear down the western patriachial colonial structure and usher in a Glorious Revolution.

There is a video from the Kiri Tamihere-Waititi - where she talks about this - talks about how thoroughly colonized they are and how they need to use force without permission to overthrow the Government.

And this second version of Decolonization is important.

They (the academic Marxists and activists who want Communism in NZ) have interpreted the Treaty as a partnership with Separate but Equal institutions just for Maori (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal) - the goal being to setup a legitimate parallel series of institutions, that eventually grow and replace the current institutions.

By submitting this Bill and defining the Treaty not as a Partnership, it prevents this from happening.

Hence all the pushback and hence why the level of debate is to call David Seymour a racist - because if they said the quiet part out loud, there would be even less support for it.

TheDemonLord

21st November 2024, 07:38

Presumably he feels the rules of Parliament don't apply to him.

He doesn't.

He feels that the rules are part of Colonial Oppression and therefore wants to get rid of them.

nerrrd

21st November 2024, 09:51

I like the Haka, but in Parliment, it was innappropriate. So far I have listened to the former director of the Waitangi Tribunal, A leader of the Hokoi, Read the Greens submission to stop the bill, Read the template forms for automated submissions (which I trust will be summarily ignored and counted as a single submission - in the same way that happened for the Firearms law changes...)

The arguments against the bill are:...

...Hence all the pushback and hence why the level of debate is to call David Seymour a racist - because if they said the quiet part out loud, there would be even less support for it.

Thanks for that, I guess my observations would be:

Parliament is mostly a sham as legislation is rarely considered on merit, members are forced to toe the party line – my side good, your side bad. I guess in that sense, breaking into a haka in the middle of a session is hardly lowering the general level of discussion.

The rest of it seems to me to be pure political theatre on both sides (full of sound and fury, signifying nothing). David Seymour's bill goes nowhere, the Maori Party keep trolling everybody, the various media platforms gorge themselves on the manufactured outrage to keep the 'news' cycle going.

Meanwhile (hopefully) the reasonable people carry on negotiating treaty settlements in the background.

TheDemonLord

21st November 2024, 10:20

Thanks for that, I guess my observations would be:

Parliament is mostly a sham as legislation is rarely considered on merit, members are forced to toe the party line – my side good, your side bad. I guess in that sense, breaking into a haka in the middle of a session is hardly lowering the general level of discussion.

I would agree with a lot of that sentiment.

The rest of it seems to me to be pure political theatre on both sides (full of sound and fury, signifying nothing). David Seymour's bill goes nowhere, the Maori Party keep trolling everybody, the various media platforms gorge themselves on the manufactured outrage to keep the 'news' cycle going.

I think the Bill will get refined and will eventually become law.

Either you subscribe to the English Liberal worldview that we are all equal before the law (Essentially what the Bill espouses)
Or you subscribe to a separatist world view (Maori services for Maori, Pakeha services for Pakeha).

And I do not see that ending well.

There are plenty of people who aren't specifically Racist, but they will get really viscious really quickly against what they see as ungrateful entitlement.

Meanwhile (hopefully) the reasonable people carry on negotiating treaty settlements in the background.

Which, is the biggest Irony here, the Bill explicitly protects and provides for the settlement of Treaty grievances.

There are some Treaty settlements that I disagree with philosophically (for example the EM Spectrum being considered a Taonga - and especially when we are told that Western Science is a Capitalist patriarchal blah blah blah scam and we should use Maori knowing - but I digress).

HenryDorsetCase

21st November 2024, 10:28

I note you use the word racist and then you demonstrate you too are racist Greg. Bear with me. I hate people using that word for so many things and I believe it is not a bad thing to be racist when the word is used correctly.
If you stick a light skinned person, a dark skinned person and a midway coloured person out in the same sun for two hurs and expect the same result then you are a fool. There are many different things about different races simply.
Discriminating against someone for a feature or trait etc is racial prejudism, and that is wrong,
People say we are the same but we are not, you don't have to dig far in our health stats to find that some races are stronger in some areas, and some have weak spots.
Some dictionaries will define racism as how i explained, some not

Eugenics? Really?

Also being racist is about how YOU perceive and treat people, not about them. You are pretending to objectivity when in fact this spiel is the opposite of that.

TheDemonLord

21st November 2024, 10:56

Eugenics? Really?

Also being racist is about how YOU perceive and treat people, not about them. You are pretending to objectivity when in fact this spiel is the opposite of that.

Well... Hold up a second...

Like it or not, the concept of race is a loose approximation for different and distinct genetic groups. The Arabs are different from the Pacific Island peoples, who are different from the Scandinavians.

And yes - there are different genetic markers that are more prevalent in some groups than others.

Why do you think all the world record sprinters of the last 50 years, despite being from different countries, have been from the same broad racial group? Why do you think all the world record Strongmen have been from Nordic or Slavic stock?

Why does a tiny island in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere have, statistically, the most dominant International sports team in history?

Why do Genetic groups that come from regions where Malaria is common, have a much higher rate of Sickle Cell Anemia.

Now - to be crystal clear - Differences in genetics does not mean we should not be treated equally under the law, Nor does it mean that we should not have equal access to education, public services etc.

There are some interesting Medical questions where priority for certain conditions that have a prevailance or predisposition within certain genetic groups, which we then abstract into racial groups (for the ease of administration at the population level) - I think this is acceptable - because it is a service based on a higher need.

F5 Dave

21st November 2024, 12:05

The one where I am in charge of everything is the best one but only theoretically at this point. That will change. I am bringing back the Roman empire, baby. Nero, not Augustus or Marcus.

Hmm. What if you got all Constantine on us. Don't need that shit happening again.

Unless I can be God this time. (A living one, not some corpse).
Let me know if we can work an accord.

HenryDorsetCase

21st November 2024, 17:51

Hmm. What if you got all Constantine on us. Don't need that shit happening again.

Unless I can be God this time. (A living one, not some corpse).
Let me know if we can work an accord.

You can have it. I am off back to my anarcho-socialist spiritual realm. Its a matriarchy, and everything is awesome. Its cool being part of a team.

FLUB

21st November 2024, 18:38

Seymour has managed to do more for Maori unity than any other politician. Could be interesting to see how this ends.

Sent from my SM-S906E using TapatalkAnd the the unity of the other 84% that aren't Maori?

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

Grumph

21st November 2024, 20:20

And the the unity of the other 84% that aren't Maori?

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

They're now discovering how much dead rat the National Party are prepared to eat to get back in power.

If the Nat caucus hadn't agreed to all this as part of the price of coalition it would have gone nowhere.

Put the blame where it belongs.

pritch

24th November 2024, 08:07

They're now discovering how much dead rat the National Party are prepared to eat to get back in power.

If the Nat caucus hadn't agreed to all this as part of the price of coalition it would have gone nowhere.

Put the blame where it belongs.

Yesterday I saw the suggestion that NZ doesn't have a race problem. It has a Seymour problem.

Luxon's inexperience in Parliament gave Seymour too much say. It's hard to imagine John Key getting sucked into a shit show like this. Not that I greatly admire Key but...

Grumph

24th November 2024, 09:14

Luxon simply saw " If i agree to this I can be Prime Minister"

And the rest of the Nat caucus saw a rosy future opening up with opportunities to make money everywhere.

onearmedbandit

24th November 2024, 09:57

Yesterday I saw the suggestion that NZ doesn't have a race problem.

Yeah that's not true though.

TheDemonLord

24th November 2024, 10:49

Yesterday I saw the suggestion that NZ doesn't have a race problem. It has a Seymour problem.

Luxon's inexperience in Parliament gave Seymour too much say. It's hard to imagine John Key getting sucked into a shit show like this. Not that I greatly admire Key but...

The issue for many people is that the Treaty has been re-interpreted by Marxist academics, to forward their goal of decolonization - whether the wider NZ public know it or not.

Case in point - most people can look at a Treaty settlement for confiscated land and agree that this was wrong and that redress was needed.

Some people look at say the creation of 2degrees as a result of a Treaty Settlement on the EM spectrum and agree with it, others look at this with skepticism (Sort of like selling a painting to a 2nd hand shop, then later realizing it is valuable and wanting a percentage of the profits...)

But when it comes to the idea of Co-Governance, most people think that this is *not* what was meant or intended in the Treaty. Having separate legal system(s) and rules based on ancestry is not tenable.

There are other issues as well - such whether or not the Maori are indigenous and given the amount of intermingling - if your Mother was Pakeha and your Father was Maori - does that make you Maori or a Treaty person...

What Seymour has done is put a flagpole in the ground to stop the judicial activism that has been happening and draw attention to a problem.

The level of debate from the people opposing the Bill has been telling, from simple name-calling Seymour as a Racist, to claiming it will do things it wont, to the occassional bit of honesty that it stops the attempts at decolonization.

R650R

24th November 2024, 10:55

JimO

24th November 2024, 11:52

you either agree with seymore or you agree with the tattoo face baboon in the cowboy hat

pritch

24th November 2024, 12:51

Luxon simply saw " If i agree to this I can be Prime Minister"

Yeah but Luxon didn't have to give Seymour much at all. Seymour wasn't going to turn down a chance to be in government.

pritch

24th November 2024, 12:54

Yeah that's not true though.

Compared to a lot of places it is. Things aren't perfect here but they are a lot worse elsewhere.

onearmedbandit

24th November 2024, 13:08

Compared to a lot of places it is. Things aren't perfect here but they are a lot worse elsewhere.

So we didn't have race issues before Seymour? Saying 'compared to a lot of places it is' doesn't negate the fact we do have race issues here, with or without Seymour.

Berries

24th November 2024, 13:43

you either agree with seymore or you agree with the tattoo face baboon in the cowboy hat
Come on, get off the fence will you.

nerrrd

24th November 2024, 15:20

The issue for many people is that the Treaty has been re-interpreted by Marxist academics, to forward their goal of decolonization - whether the wider NZ public know it or not…

...What Seymour has done is put a flagpole in the ground to stop the judicial activism that has been happening and draw attention to a problem…

Is this really what’s happening, or is it just two sides in a negotiation trying to come to an agreement? There has to be give and take on both sides. Maori have every right to ask for whatever they want during the negotiating process. Putting a ‘flagpole in the ground’ at such a late stage in that process is not a good faith negotiating tactic, it’s exactly the opposite.

TheDemonLord

24th November 2024, 19:14

Is this really what’s happening, or is it just two sides in a negotiation trying to come to an agreement? There has to be give and take on both sides. Maori have every right to ask for whatever they want during the negotiating process. Putting a ‘flagpole in the ground’ at such a late stage in that process is not a good faith negotiating tactic, it’s exactly the opposite.

Yes, it is really what is happening.

Te Pati Maori have even said themselves that they want to setup an entirely parallel and independant government.

Does that sound like Give and Take to you - does that sound like negotiating in good faith?

Their (Te Pati Maori and the various academics who are driving the protest) outcome is to keep the principles of the Treaty vague, so that they can continue to be misinterpreted to mean Co-Governance, in order to further drive the desired outcome of complete Decolonization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decolonization) - which is a Marxist idea - with the goal of undermining the West and ushering a Communist revolution.

To put it another way - you think the question being asked is something like does the Treaty protect deep sea fishing rights - and between us we can have a rational discussion as to whether or not that was the intention of the Treaty and whether the protections of ancestral hunting and fishing rights extends to commercial deep sea fishing.

The question that is really being asked is whether the Treaty can be used to further a revolutionary cause to undermine our Western style democracy.

I, for one, like food and do not want a Communist revolution.

pritch

24th November 2024, 20:47

So we didn't have race issues before Seymour? Saying 'compared to a lot of places it is' doesn't negate the fact we do have race issues here, with or without Seymour.

Now you are arguing with things I didn't write. As for Seymour we didn't have thousands of people marching on Parliament until he stired it up. If Luxon's telling the truth though it's all for nothing.

onearmedbandit

24th November 2024, 20:57

Now you are arguing with things I didn't write. As for Seymour we didn't have thousands of people marching on Parliament until he stared it up. If Luxon's telling the truth though it's all for nothing.

I trimmed your original post too much in my quote, I should've left the 'Seymour problem' part in it. I was disagreeing with the suggestion that NZ doesn't have a race problem, it has a Seymour problem. NZ, regardless of where we sit on the spectrum of racism, has a racism issue. Seymour has fuck all to do with that.

R650R

25th November 2024, 08:42

F5 Dave

25th November 2024, 11:56

you either agree with seymore or you agree with the tattoo face baboon in the cowboy hat
Ooh. Appearance. That's a good tried and true way to judge a message.

So what did the baboon say? (As obviously that's the way we are swinging here).

sugilite

25th November 2024, 15:31

I've been pondering if and when to share my opinion on this one, and finally here I am. Yes this is a VERY long post (or 2 depending on kb post word limits), skip to the end for the one paragraph summary if you don't like long posts.

Everyone has a different take influenced by their own lifes experiences and reality. Mine are thus, I'm Pakeha, my biological 4 children are Maori – about 30% according to DNA tests. I was involved in my ex wifes family for 26 years. Like many Maori families, this one is huuuge. Due to the women in the family being very shall we say “combative” all the Maori men in the family had done runners and token white guy here actually did the Whanau Kōrero/Whakapapa etc at events such as Tangis, weddings and so on. With my sternest test being me doing the above at a Mongrel Mob wedding (only white guy there) with over 200 gang members in attendance – the kicker? The union was between Ngpuhi and Ngati Porou which if course historically hate each other. Walking on eggshells was a rock stable platform in comparison! Having said all that, in no way do I speak for Maori on issues relating to them.

I'm going to link to 2 videos below that I watched before writing this. I will start with the video interviewing Debbie Ngarewa-Packer co-leader of Te Pāti Māori party. She is well spoken and my initial respect levels were high. However, as the interview went on, that level did subside somewhat.
She showed that the politician is strong in her when she could not bring herself to say that Maori had rights that the rest do not, She desperately was trying to frame it as they have more “responsibilities”. If one has to use such language it is generally because they deem their argument to be unpalatable in it's truest form. If course Maori have certain rights that are not available to non Maori, and for me personally I have never taken any sort of umbrage in that, it bothers me personally not at all. My children have never applied for Maori only grants or in other ways been advantaged by these laws. Ironically the only medical centre that took myself and American wife in around these parts was the local iwi run clinic!

In my view, the current state of the treaty and how it effects our laws and so on is about as imperfectly perfect as could be hoped for. There is no perfect solution.
I do agree with Ngarewa-Packer that it needs to be the courts that further clarify and define the principles. The crown are a biased party and should not have that power. Ngarewa-Packer wants the treaty tribunal to have more teeth, where as I'm comfortable with the teeth they currently have. Ngarewa-Packer does go on about the right wing Atlas Collective having their fingerprints all over this bill Seymour has bought forward. More on that later.

Sovereignty – If what I have heard in regards to the Te Pāti Māori party wanting complete separation such as own police force, justice system etc is true, that is simply never going to fly, and our current system of laws etc simply does not allow them opportunity to really make any meaningful progress to meet their aim. So I'm not worrying about that coming to be at all. I do see our resident red under every bed is saying they want to create a marxist state. I think it is hardly surprising a proud race of people would like to govern themselves, and parts of that may look like or have aspects of marxism in it, I do not see it as outright attempt at marxism. But it does make a wonderful sound bite for the right to rark up support for the rights agenda. The largest internal problem that Maori would have with sovereignty is, who among them would wield this power? The separate tribes are hardly known for cooperation, unity and kumbaybloodyya among each other.

Back to the Ngarewa-Packer interview – I did find it ironic when she said that the treaty should not be bought forward for debate by a party with only 8% support – when she herself is representing a minority that wants to heavily influence the majority. When she was asked if the hīkoi was a recruitment drive and had her party received new registrations – the co leader claimed she had no idea. Bull fucking shit and further erosion of her credibility for me ensued.

I understand and can sympathise with why Maori are alarmed by this bill. Governments are hard to trust at the best of times, and they as a people have endured a lot of bad faith acts from respective nz Governments in the past.

OK, onto the other sides view. At this point, I will reveal my party vote went to Act in the last election. My electorate vote went to a labour mp who I felt would do the better job in their local area than any of the other shitty candidates on offer. MMP in action right there. The main reason I voted for Act when choosing which was the best dead rat party vote to swallow was that Seymour promised to cut red tape when it came to resource consents and so on. I do not agree with a lot of what Seymour stands for, but I do view him as one of the more trustworthy politicians as he does seem to do what he says he is going to – imo. The thrust of all that is I place cutting red tape and needless wanton bureaucracy wherever possible very highly. It is something that ultimately benefits every New Zealander no matter their political leaning, well except a handful of politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers – boo fucking hoo.

I feel Seymour sincerely believes he wants New Zealanders to have equal rights, however I also believe that his corporate donor overlords want to castrate that pesky treaty in order to exploit New Zealands natural resources. As they say, the devil is in the details. And for me, the devil for Maoris and thus protection of natural resources is in Principle 2, article 2 of the bill. “However, if those rights differ from the rights of everyone, subclause (1) applies only if those rights are agreed in the settlement of a historical treaty claim under the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. “. This is where the corporates will get the crow bar and pillage the resources that otherwise would have been protected.
The corporates moan about how it is inconvenient and time wasting to deal with iwi. I feel when it comes to the few natural resources and landscapes we do have left in this country - it should be bloody inconvenient to pillage them for often what is short term gains and all too often cause irreversible damage.
Both sides have mentioned the sea bed mining project in South Taranaki. As I write this, I need only look out the window to my right and gaze down at the very stretch of water in question. The local community as a whole has been fighting this for a long time, and they view the local Iwi as being the ultimate gate keeper in keeping the sea bed from being destroyed in the name of minerals that are not particularly hard to find elsewhere.
I'm sick of corporations saying we have nothing to worry about despite what studies of deep sea mining show, only to throw their hands up at the end and go, what a shame, we did not expect that and then take off into the sunset with their profits.

In Seymours video - he says look we have ended up with a separate Maori Health Authority and the need to consult Maori in resource consents. He then mentioned co governance on 3 waters – a dead in the water bill that never came to be. That tells me Seymour has not got that many issues of Maori having more rights than the rest of us to really go on about. Considering the state of Maori health, I do not have a problem with them having their own authority, and I support them being involved in resource consent issues. (despite my feeling that red tape needs to be cut in this country). I do feel that Maori could buy a lot of goodwill if they were to streamline cultural reports and so on in the sense that there will be a lot of overlap and a “brand new” cultural report does not need to be generated for every infrastructure project, just amend one that has been done before to reflect nuances a particular project may have. I won't shed tears for the lawyers and writers that currently make a profit from this “industry”.

In the interview below, Seymour was saying how he does not agree with the Maori Language being in schools and complaining that parents can not opt their children out from it, and it would take time away from maths, English and science. IMO this is a steaming pile of bullshit. Do parents have the choice of opting their kids out of any other subject at school bar maybe sex ed? Can schools not create a curriculum that takes in more than just maths, English and science?
To my knowledge, Maori language is not a compulsory subject schools are even required to teach. So misdirection from Seymour there – for me trying to make issues bigger than what they actually are is not a ringing endorsement ones bill stands on it's own merit.
I found it particularly interesting when the interviewer asked Seymour what does he feel in regards to whether the principles covered all New Zealanders or just Maori? He seems to feel the interpretation of the Maori version of the treaty says all New Zealanders, despite Maori scholars and such saying yeah nah, just Maori. And when it was put to him the English version of the treaty actually specifies just Maori, Seymour tried to dismiss the English version as not being considered in this conversation. If one treaty clarifies the other, for me at least it does have relevance. I get why Seymour is keen to dismiss it as it leaves an extremely large turd floating in the punch bowl he is attempting to sell New Zealanders on.

I feel if Seymour was sincere about wanting to cut back on red tape and cut down on costs of consent, he would be more actively working on cutting these things within the scope of what he does have power over, that being Government itself, and to a lesser extent local bodies who have no end of opportunities to cull the regulatory madness currently in place down to size. I do not count cutting Government jobs, in some cases to NZ's detriment as “cutting red tape”.

So in summary.
I feel we have two extremes here. A determined Te Pāti Māori party with supporters that want to set up full sovereignty and all that entails that certainly does have aspects of marxism in their plans. But at the end of the day, they have no real way forward of seriously advancing that plan.
On the other side we have Seymour and supporters that I have no doubt do include right wing groups wanting to pillage resources to enrich themselves putting up a slick package designed to make the “have nots” feel aggrieved and hard done by in order to advance their greed based aspirations.
As ever somewhere in the middle of two extremes lies balance. Which I feel is exactly what we have in place right now.
The bill is supposedly dead, long may that be the case.

P.S. (I know - groan) What I would like to see is NZ Elections be funded by tax payers. No more corporate “donations” or donations of any kind.
Like America, NZ has corruption baked into our political system from the get go. These donors always have an outcome in mind for their “investment”. To my mind this is not a democracy as optimal as it possibly could be.
The Government is put there by the people for the people. As soon as corporate money gets involved, the concept of Government actually working for the people gets shoved out the door.
So no more donations, no more lobbyists with offices in the parliament. I'm not saying corporate business should be out in the cold with no say. They should absolutely be consulted by Government on a huge raft of issues, and their information be reviewed. If deemed worthy, then implemented by competent and qualified Government staff – but no fucking “leverage donations” should ever be entertained.
I would also advocate for Government department heads/ministers to be paid highly enough that skilled and competent experts in their field can be hired. A small price to pay for qualified decisions to benefit all New Zealanders moving forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkh8b-oSjhY&list=WL&index=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12UItFaDXQ&list=WL&index=2&pp=gAQBiAQB

TheDemonLord

25th November 2024, 17:57

I've been pondering if and when to share my opinion on this one, and finally here I am. Yes this is a VERY long post (or 2 depending on kb post word limits), skip to the end for the one paragraph summary if you don't like long posts.

Everyone has a different take influenced by their own lifes experiences and reality. Mine are thus, I'm Pakeha, my biological 4 children are Maori – about 30% according to DNA tests. I was involved in my ex wifes family for 26 years. Like many Maori families, this one is huuuge. Due to the women in the family being very shall we say “combative” all the Maori men in the family had done runners and token white guy here actually did the Whanau Kōrero/Whakapapa etc at events such as Tangis, weddings and so on. With my sternest test being me doing the above at a Mongrel Mob wedding (only white guy there) with over 200 gang members in attendance – the kicker? The union was between Ngpuhi and Ngati Porou which if course historically hate each other. Walking on eggshells was a rock stable platform in comparison! Having said all that, in no way do I speak for Maori on issues relating to them.

I'm going to link to 2 videos below that I watched before writing this. I will start with the video interviewing Debbie Ngarewa-Packer co-leader of Te Pāti Māori party. She is well spoken and my initial respect levels were high. However, as the interview went on, that level did subside somewhat.
She showed that the politician is strong in her when she could not bring herself to say that Maori had rights that the rest do not, She desperately was trying to frame it as they have more “responsibilities”. If one has to use such language it is generally because they deem their argument to be unpalatable in it's truest form. If course Maori have certain rights that are not available to non Maori, and for me personally I have never taken any sort of umbrage in that, it bothers me personally not at all. My children have never applied for Maori only grants or in other ways been advantaged by these laws. Ironically the only medical centre that took myself and American wife in around these parts was the local iwi run clinic!

In my view, the current state of the treaty and how it effects our laws and so on is about as imperfectly perfect as could be hoped for. There is no perfect solution.
I do agree with Ngarewa-Packer that it needs to be the courts that further clarify and define the principles. The crown are a biased party and should not have that power. Ngarewa-Packer wants the treaty tribunal to have more teeth, where as I'm comfortable with the teeth they currently have. Ngarewa-Packer does go on about the right wing Atlas Collective having their fingerprints all over this bill Seymour has bought forward. More on that later.

Sovereignty – If what I have heard in regards to the Te Pāti Māori party wanting complete separation such as own police force, justice system etc is true, that is simply never going to fly, and our current system of laws etc simply does not allow them opportunity to really make any meaningful progress to meet their aim. So I'm not worrying about that coming to be at all. I do see our resident red under every bed is saying they want to create a marxist state. I think it is hardly surprising a proud race of people would like to govern themselves, and parts of that may look like or have aspects of marxism in it, I do not see it as outright attempt at marxism. But it does make a wonderful sound bite for the right to rark up support for the rights agenda. The largest internal problem that Maori would have with sovereignty is, who among them would wield this power? The separate tribes are hardly known for cooperation, unity and kumbaybloodyya among each other.

Back to the Ngarewa-Packer interview – I did find it ironic when she said that the treaty should not be bought forward for debate by a party with only 8% support – when she herself is representing a minority that wants to heavily influence the majority. When she was asked if the hīkoi was a recruitment drive and had her party received new registrations – the co leader claimed she had no idea. Bull fucking shit and further erosion of her credibility for me ensued.

I understand and can sympathise with why Maori are alarmed by this bill. Governments are hard to trust at the best of times, and they as a people have endured a lot of bad faith acts from respective nz Governments in the past.

OK, onto the other sides view. At this point, I will reveal my party vote went to Act in the last election. My electorate vote went to a labour mp who I felt would do the better job in their local area than any of the other shitty candidates on offer. MMP in action right there. The main reason I voted for Act when choosing which was the best dead rat party vote to swallow was that Seymour promised to cut red tape when it came to resource consents and so on. I do not agree with a lot of what Seymour stands for, but I do view him as one of the more trustworthy politicians as he does seem to do what he says he is going to – imo. The thrust of all that is I place cutting red tape and needless wanton bureaucracy wherever possible very highly. It is something that ultimately benefits every New Zealander no matter their political leaning, well except a handful of politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers – boo fucking hoo.

I feel Seymour sincerely believes he wants New Zealanders to have equal rights, however I also believe that his corporate donor overlords want to castrate that pesky treaty in order to exploit New Zealands natural resources. As they say, the devil is in the details. And for me, the devil for Maoris and thus protection of natural resources is in Principle 2, article 2 of the bill. “However, if those rights differ from the rights of everyone, subclause (1) applies only if those rights are agreed in the settlement of a historical treaty claim under the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. “. This is where the corporates will get the crow bar and pillage the resources that otherwise would have been protected.
The corporates moan about how it is inconvenient and time wasting to deal with iwi. I feel when it comes to the few natural resources and landscapes we do have left in this country - it should be bloody inconvenient to pillage them for often what is short term gains and all too often cause irreversible damage.
Both sides have mentioned the sea bed mining project in South Taranaki. As I write this, I need only look out the window to my right and gaze down at the very stretch of water in question. The local community as a whole has been fighting this for a long time, and they view the local Iwi as being the ultimate gate keeper in keeping the sea bed from being destroyed in the name of minerals that are not particularly hard to find elsewhere.
I'm sick of corporations saying we have nothing to worry about despite what studies of deep sea mining show, only to throw their hands up at the end and go, what a shame, we did not expect that and then take off into the sunset with their profits.

In Seymours video - he says look we have ended up with a separate Maori Health Authority and the need to consult Maori in resource consents. He then mentioned co governance on 3 waters – a dead in the water bill that never came to be. That tells me Seymour has not got that many issues of Maori having more rights than the rest of us to really go on about. Considering the state of Maori health, I do not have a problem with them having their own authority, and I support them being involved in resource consent issues. (despite my feeling that red tape needs to be cut in this country). I do feel that Maori could buy a lot of goodwill if they were to streamline cultural reports and so on in the sense that there will be a lot of overlap and a “brand new” cultural report does not need to be generated for every infrastructure project, just amend one that has been done before to reflect nuances a particular project may have. I won't shed tears for the lawyers and writers that currently make a profit from this “industry”.

In the interview below, Seymour was saying how he does not agree with the Maori Language being in schools and complaining that parents can not opt their children out from it, and it would take time away from maths, English and science. IMO this is a steaming pile of bullshit. Do parents have the choice of opting their kids out of any other subject at school bar maybe sex ed? Can schools not create a curriculum that takes in more than just maths, English and science?
To my knowledge, Maori language is not a compulsory subject schools are even required to teach. So misdirection from Seymour there – for me trying to make issues bigger than what they actually are is not a ringing endorsement ones bill stands on it's own merit.
I found it particularly interesting when the interviewer asked Seymour what does he feel in regards to whether the principles covered all New Zealanders or just Maori? He seems to feel the interpretation of the Maori version of the treaty says all New Zealanders, despite Maori scholars and such saying yeah nah, just Maori. And when it was put to him the English version of the treaty actually specifies just Maori, Seymour tried to dismiss the English version as not being considered in this conversation. If one treaty clarifies the other, for me at least it does have relevance. I get why Seymour is keen to dismiss it as it leaves an extremely large turd floating in the punch bowl he is attempting to sell New Zealanders on.

I feel if Seymour was sincere about wanting to cut back on red tape and cut down on costs of consent, he would be more actively working on cutting these things within the scope of what he does have power over, that being Government itself, and to a lesser extent local bodies who have no end of opportunities to cull the regulatory madness currently in place down to size. I do not count cutting Government jobs, in some cases to NZ's detriment as “cutting red tape”.

So in summary.
I feel we have two extremes here. A determined Te Pāti Māori party with supporters that want to set up full sovereignty and all that entails that certainly does have aspects of marxism in their plans. But at the end of the day, they have no real way forward of seriously advancing that plan.
On the other side we have Seymour and supporters that I have no doubt do include right wing groups wanting to pillage resources to enrich themselves putting up a slick package designed to make the “have nots” feel aggrieved and hard done by in order to advance their greed based aspirations.
As ever somewhere in the middle of two extremes lies balance. Which I feel is exactly what we have in place right now.
The bill is supposedly dead, long may that be the case.

P.S. (I know - groan) What I would like to see is NZ Elections be funded by tax payers. No more corporate “donations” or donations of any kind.
Like America, NZ has corruption baked into our political system from the get go. These donors always have an outcome in mind for their “investment”. To my mind this is not a democracy as optimal as it possibly could be.
The Government is put there by the people for the people. As soon as corporate money gets involved, the concept of Government actually working for the people gets shoved out the door.
So no more donations, no more lobbyists with offices in the parliament. I'm not saying corporate business should be out in the cold with no say. They should absolutely be consulted by Government on a huge raft of issues, and their information be reviewed. If deemed worthy, then implemented by competent and qualified Government staff – but no fucking “leverage donations” should ever be entertained.
I would also advocate for Government department heads/ministers to be paid highly enough that skilled and competent experts in their field can be hired. A small price to pay for qualified decisions to benefit all New Zealanders moving forward.

Must spread some rep around.

A very interesting and well articulated post first and foremost.

I am also inwardly jumping up and down with joy at the admission you voted ACT.

To clarify a few things - When it comes to the end-goal, I do not believe that most Maori want Communism, at all. Only a small number of Academics, Activists and Politicians want that.

The issue is that they use the following narrative:

The Colonizers took Utopia for you, did nothing for you, put you in prison, stole your lands - if we get rid of them, we can live in Utopia again!

And just like you identified with Debbie Ngarewa-Packer - when pushed for the real answer, she goes awfully evasive - because I think they know it wont fly.

On the cutting of red tape and utilizing resources - Reading your post, it sounds like you have an internal tension between these two areas. I mean this without it being negative - a Healthy tension between two noble principles is a good thing. We want the small business owner and private land owner to be able to go about their business without having to fill in 40 different forms, consult 10 different special interest groups. In the same breath, we want prudent and risk-aware usage of our natural resources. Sometimes that means Drill, Baby, Drill. Sometimes it means not at the moment, sometimes it means not at all.

In some instances, I think it is absolutely right that Iwi get consulted on issues - in other instances, I think it is unneccesary red tape.

On the School side and Maori Language - I feel I am somewhat qualified to talk here (as I have school age kiddos) - This is an area where I, like you, have an internal tension.

On the one hand, In terms of pure education, Maori language does not have a lot of further possibilities. Before anyone brings up the R-word, let me explain - with English, Maths and Science - that opens up a plethora of Career and study options Globally. Engineering can take you to the US or Dubai, English is the international language of commerce, Maths is universal etc. Given the limitations in terms of days at School, adding an additional subject must, necessarily, take away time from existing subjects...

However, on the Flip side - I do not believe that the school is formally teaching Maori in the same way that you would learn German or Latin (insert painful memories of trying to conjugate verbs - Die, Der, Das...) It is instead using Maori words alongside their english equivalents. In addition (and I think I have mentioned this before) - I have been to Wales many times and seen in my lifetime the resurgence of the Welsh language.

In addition, understanding a language gives a lot of detail and nuance to understanding a culture.

I will add a slight aside that the way they are substituting words does Irk me in that it creates almost a pidgin English type language, which I am not a huge fan of, where it doesnt make sense. By make sense I mean words or concepts that do not have an easy or direct english translation - e.g. Whanau or Marae.

If it were not for knowing the ulterior motives, I would perhaps be less critical on this point. The push for increased usage of Maori has, IMO been forced - which I think is a big part of the push back - the renaming of Government departments is and was a good example of this.

Where I perhaps disagree with you is where the balance is currently. For the sake of Argument, let us say you and I went to either the Waitangi Tribunal, the Beehive Civil Service or the University courses that teach the subjects that feed into these areas. I feel confident that I could take a firehose, turn it full blast, swing it around the respective rooms and never once get an ACT voter wet (you and I excluded of course).

I bet though I would get quite a few open Marxists and I would *definitely* get a large number of people who believed in Decolonization (even if they may not know what the end-goal actually is).

And whilst it is up to them to interpret what the Principles are, they will lean in favor of their world view, ignoring historical context, engaging in judicial activism, opting for a Living Document view, rather than an Originalist and Textualist approach.

Therefore a Bill to limit their ability to nudge the Country in that direction is needed.

As I said in one of my Posts - my umbrage with the wording of the Bill is the first Principle: I dont want the Government to have full power to do anything. I want Governmental power to be constrained as tightly as possible.

sugilite

26th November 2024, 08:31

I agree with most of your post and what I disagree with is so small I see no value in nit picking.
Don't worry TDL, normal service will resume over on the trump thread ;)

Dont get too excited about my ACT vote though, I saw the left were dead and the nats were in like flin, so I looked at the policies on the right and felt Seymor was a semi positive agent for change that "may" ultimately benefit all nz'ers. At the end of the day it was still an unpalatable dead rat that needed swallowing :puke:

TheDemonLord

26th November 2024, 08:47

SaferRides

26th November 2024, 09:56

Some background reading: https://thelawassociation.nz/the-principles-of-te-tiriti-o-waitangi-where-it-all-started/

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

Ocean1

27th November 2024, 23:46

I will add a slight aside that the way they are substituting words does Irk me in that it creates almost a pidgin English type language, which I am not a huge fan of, where it doesnt make sense.

I believe Te Reo originally used around 7000 words. Contemporary English uses 150-200,000, excluding technical and archaic words.

So, as English stole words from every other culture it traded with Maori stole English words. Lots of them. It had to in order to communicate effectively with anyone they wanted to trade with.

I don't blame them, but it does make their indignant insistence in inserting Te Reo, transliterations and all into every fucking crevice they can pound it into somewhat tiring.

HenryDorsetCase

28th November 2024, 07:53

I believe Te Reo originally used around 7000 words. Contemporary English uses 150-200,000, excluding technical and archaic words.

So, as English stole words from every other culture it traded with Maori stole English words. Lots of them. It had to in order to communicate effectively with anyone they wanted to trade with.

I don't blame them, but it does make their indignant insistence in inserting Te Reo, transliterations and all into every fucking crevice they can pound it into somewhat tiring.

I too enjoy pounding things into crevices.

TheDemonLord

30th November 2024, 19:25

So - an interesting commentary from ACT: In one of their newsletters, they mentioned that the Bill has achieved one of its goals - which is to get the people who oppose this to say outloud that they have more rights because they are Maori.

And I for one can appreciate a well-played Troll, to get your opponent to say the quiet part aloud.

Berries

30th November 2024, 19:34

Was thinking of going to the cricket next week but the on screen schedule only had the Maori name so I couldn't tell where it was.

Kikiroa?

sugilite

4th December 2024, 16:11

Seymour's recruitment drive going quite nicely!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOpBig2opF8

sugilite

4th December 2024, 18:04

An interesting perspective.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehvb_O6IJWQ&pp=ygUSYnJpbmcgYmFjayBwYWtlaGEh

Katman

26th December 2024, 19:20

TheDemonLord

30th December 2024, 07:50

Maori were not a unified race back when the treaty was signed. The Musket Wars that occupied the preceding two decades showed that.

The signing of the treaty gave Maori the opportunity to settle into a sense of stability and the Maori that fought on the side of the British during the New Zealand Wars that followed are proof of that.

The idea that the Maori Party represents a unified Maoridom is ludicrous.

What surprises me is that they appear to get away with outright displays of sedition while occupying positions in a despised pakeha government.

Interesting points on the unified Maori front - I dont entirely agree with them per se, but I do find it interesting how quickly the NZ Political debate talks about Maori, forgetting that there are still deep divisions.

For example - the Local Marae that I help out at (Which may surprise you) - One of their Elders told me a story of Utu between his tribe and Waikato Tribes. He refuses to break bread with certain Waikato groups (I cant remember the names).

Me, personally, when I heard the story - fascinating story (I enjoy history) and that Man is a walking history book and regularly does mini-archeological digs in the region - but despite my investiment in the story - the bit that struck me was the old axiom:

No man shall be made to answer for the Crimes of his Father.

It seemed to me, that to him, the Tribe lived on and the crimes of the Tribe have not been answered for. It is a very different world view.

The sedition part is hilarious to me - because if you read up on their philosophies - you will find they are outright seditious, and yet we give them a free pass.

Then when they do what they say they are going to do - people get up in arms - I find that Hilarious. Te Pati Maori are, fundamentally, a revolutionary political force, with Marxist leanings whose sole purpose is to decolonize NZ - e.g. remove every facet and element of British Democracy from NZ.

Their very existence is seditious.

Onto the Treaty though - and this article, I feel is the most 'honest' with the opposition:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/treaty-principles-bill-what-the-maori-academics-say-is-wrong-with-david-seymours-legislation/DW3ZOWFW35GELHXVZIQP3R4LOI/

In the first paragraph:

The Treaty Principles Bill poses major risk to public health and equity, according to four academics, Carwyn Jones, Maria Bargh, Michael Baker and Rhys Jones.

I have highlighted the Key word here:

Equity.

NOT Equality.

What do they mean when they talk about Equity?

(Note - this is the cue for those un-interested, here comes my favourite topics - Marxism!)

I will first describe the difference between the two concepts in my own words:

Equality would be having a dole payment the same for everyone - For the sake of argument lets say $1,000 a week.

Equity would be saying well person A lives in Auckland and to achieve the same lifestyle as person B in woodville, they will need $1,500 a week. Person C also lives in woodville but has a medical condition that means they can't Drive, so they need $2,000 to taxi everywhere.

Or at least - that is the nice and fluffy version of Equity that is promoted by dishonest actors would say (cue the picture of the Baseball game where people are trying to watch it for free over a fence and difference heights)

The actual version of Equity goes more like this: Group A has a different outcome than Group B on *Issue* (Education, Health, Criminality, longevity etc. etc.) - therefore discrimination.

And to fix this supposed discrimination, we need Legislation, Affrimative action (Discrimination to beat Discrimination), Quotas, DIE policies etc. and ultimately (when you unravel the ball of yarn far enough) - A Communist revolution to smash the Western Colonial Capitalist Patriarchy!

Let us put some purely hypotheticals into practice:

Maori have different health outcomes than Pakeha, therefore we need a seperate Maori health agency to fix this. Sound familiar? Purely Hypothetical of course.

And there is the *real* issue that this bill sought to expose (and ultimately fix).

Judicial Activists have sought to use the Treaty to further their own agendas, re-interpreting Maori phrases within the Treaty as so as to require things like Co-Governance, all whilst using it as a Trojan Horse for a De-colonist agenda (which as per previous postings - is a Marxist concept).

Once you strip away the insults of the opposition to the bill: Racist! I dont like Seymour etc. etc.

You get a few moments of clarity as to what the real reason for the opposition is: The Bill was limit their ability to abuse the Treaty to promote Marxist concepts like Equity. This is what the Academics are mad about, this is what the likes of Te Pati Maori are mad at. Who in turn rile up their base with claims like Racism etc.

This was the real reason for the Bill - to get certain people to admit they have been using the Treaty to push their agenda - an Agenda that most Kiwis are not on board with.

Whether or not is passes in this form - The cat is out of the bag, whilst some of us were well aware of this ages ago, the wider public has seen the statements and behavior of the opposition and are starting to put 2 and 2 together.

In this sense, even if the Bill does not pass - it has been a success. Getting Te Pati Maori to admit they want to do away with the Government and getting Academics to admit they are abusing the treaty to push Equity has been a win.

F5 Dave

30th December 2024, 21:17

Why don't you go back to your own country? You seem incapable of reasoned empathy of the fuckery your country folk have reined on the inhabitants.

Katman

31st December 2024, 06:01

Interesting points on the unified Maori front - I dont entirely agree with them per se, but I do find it interesting how quickly the NZ Political debate talks about Maori, forgetting that there are still deep divisions.

A prime example of those divisions is Tainui's conflict with Ngati Whatua over control of the Greater Auckland area.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/chris-trotter-the-tribal-stand-off-at-eden-park

nerrrd

31st December 2024, 07:55

But isn't that why negotiations have been done with each iwi individually? The settlement process seems to chug along in the background regardless of who's in government, probably because they need people who understand the complexities involved.

Meanwhile on the national stage the various political parties are free to express their opinions, as are we all, everybody's got one. I, for instance, would like to see some genuine, non-partisan discussion around how to sort out our failing infrastructure, health care, energy, housing etc, but I'm not holding my breath. I like the fact that Seymour tends to talk about things like that, but he seems to me to be looking backwards at the same policies that have got us where we are now, just done slightly differently. I don't think that's going to help.

TheDemonLord

31st December 2024, 08:22

Why don't you go back to your own country? You seem incapable of reasoned empathy of the fuckery your country folk have reined on the inhabitants.

Well, firstly, England is barely English anymore (funny how the indigenous population argument only applies to Colonies and not the homeland - but I digress)

More importantly though:

Compared to what?

Reasoned Empathy - and FWIW, this argument really pisses me off:

Inter Tribal conflict here is an abridged version of that Utu that I mentioned (https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/video/wars-waitara-roadside-stories)

Over a thousand were believed to be slaughtered, with many bodies being cooked and eaten by the victors. Rather than be captured by the enemy, some Te Ātiawa women chose to throw themselves and their children off the cliff at Pukerangiora and onto the riverbed 100 metres below.

How many times has that happened since England fully established rule? Virtually none. That is one story, from 2 Tribes. There are hundreds of similar stories.

Slavery - Taurekareka. Just like every society (before the British) - if you were captured in combat - you were either Raped (women and girls old enough to bare children) Killed (The men and older Boys, Babies and Elderly) or forced into Slavery.

Life expectancy due to Modern Medicine.

etc.

I could go on - but let me ask you this - based on just those factors alone - there are far more Maori alive today than before the Europeans arrived (most widely accepted Estimate is around 100,000)

My 'reasoned empathy' as you tried to ridicule it - sees an end to inter-tribal war, increase in life expectancy, end of Slavery and a massive increase in the population.

And again - the point must be made - not all Maori agree with the likes of Te Pati Maori or their ulterior motives.

TheDemonLord

31st December 2024, 08:49

Meanwhile on the national stage the various political parties are free to express their opinions, as are we all, everybody's got one. I, for instance, would like to see some genuine, non-partisan discussion around how to sort out our failing infrastructure, health care, energy, housing etc, but I'm not holding my breath. I like the fact that Seymour tends to talk about things like that, but he seems to me to be looking backwards at the same policies that have got us where we are now, just done slightly differently. I don't think that's going to help.

That is a good argument.

In terms of Housing - the removal/revamp of the RMA is one of ACTs main policies - the main goal is to remove restrictions for people wanting to build. I have a number of friends who did new build houses - and the stories I have heard from them (these are not friends that run in the same circles or interact with each other) were all the same: They were stifled at every turn by the Council being dickheads over Plans and over RMA related things.

Energy - NZ has a choice to make - either we push for Wind and Solar (which do not seem to be all they are cracked up to be, even with advances in tech), Push for more Hydro (which has ecological concerns - some real, some imagined), Coal and Gas (with the pollution it causes) or we look at Nuclear. That said, if someone could hurry up and create a tidal based power generation system that was reliable - that would also be great for NZ.

Failing Infrastructure - There are two parts to this I feel - Government spending largesse on things that the government shouldn't be spending on (look at the last governments love of over-paid consultants delivering fuck all) and the red tape (see above on the RMA) to do anything.

Finally Health - this is an area that I think the Western World that isn't the US is in for a rude awakening. As we have improved our Medical technology - people are living longer and dare I say it, we are able to keep people alive artificially for longer. Conditions that 40 years ago would have resulted in someone dropping dead either immediately or in a matter of weeks are now able to live an extra 10-20 years with the right medication.

That has a cost. Now, quick aside, I am not trying to make an argument over the value of life or that everything should be measured in Dollars and Cents - but there is also a reality that goods and services must be paid for and that they have a cost and we cannot escape that fact.

In addition - that 10-20 years extra life, in the last 5 or so years, the healthcare costs start to exponentially increase. The UK in particular is having a struggle with the NHS constantly increasing its budgets by hundreds of millions of pounds, yet the average Brit is complaining that they are not seeing any real or meaningful increase in the level of care they get from the NHS.

Furthermore - as more conditions are discovered, the demands for treatment increases. As an example - 40 years ago a Man claiming to be a Women and wanting to have his bits lopped off and take Eastrogen would have been redirected to an insane asylum. Today, all those treatments and medical interventions are funded. Now - this is not a rant against Trans people (although there is a little bit of snark included) - it is simply a good example of a cost to provide socialized healthcare that has increased recently. And FWIW - if the difference between someone living a long and productive life as a contributing member of society is the cost of surgery and life-long hormone therapy vs them committing suicide, I pay the cost of their treatment gladly.

The US 'solves' this problem by externalizing health care costs to the individual via Medical Insurance - which is something I do not like, but as I see the same problems increasing everywhere else, it may be eventually we are forced to privatize Healthcare.

sugilite

5th February 2025, 17:58

Well, with the greens hogging the limelight last year with their crime loving members showcasing their migrant abuse and high end shop lifting skills - Act is out of the gates early in 2025 raising the anti with having a sexual predator as their president - since removed.
I'm expecting Seymour to come out with a law amendment restricting the ridiculous amount of time politicians, celebrities and sports stars get name suppression in this country.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/540588/former-act-party-president-and-convicted-sex-offender-tim-jago-s-name-suppression-went-on-too-long-advocate

Seymour did get a win today however, with Maori removing his microphone at his (brave) Waitangi speech. I feel this action was ill advised as now Seymour and his right wing cabal have a "See they did want people to hear the truth" trope to move forward with. A multi pronged round of rebuttal speeches would of been the way to go imo.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360569316/live-kingitanga-arrive-waitangi

TheDemonLord

5th February 2025, 21:32

A multi pronged round of rebuttal speeches would of been the way to go imo.

The problem is they dont have a rebuttal that does not rely on fundamentally racist notions.

Listening to some of the highlighted submissions on the Treaty bill, all too often we hear the question: How does this benefit Maori.

I think a better question to ask is how would this benefit all New Zealanders....

sugilite

6th February 2025, 07:56

Just read the article linked below, looks like we have a mini 2 level justice system ala usa. If you are a rich high profile businessman with friends in the right places, poof the case goes away - concerning.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360569297/police-shelved-probe-sex-offender-tim-jago-25-years-he-was-convicted

"Stuff has spoken to a former senior police officer who looked at the file while investigating an unrelated matter.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, he said while he didn’t read the file from cover to cover, he saw enough which made him question why Jago wasn’t charged in 1999.

“For a case like this, you’d look at the circumstances - time, place, opportunity - which is what you had. It should’ve been a slam dunk, an easy decision to charge,” he said. "

How did this guy ever become the act president?

R650R

6th February 2025, 18:58

This is worth a watch to here some actual facts and also see Guy Williams (quite a likeable comedian) get owned twice.

Bit of an own goal to take mic away (he was wearing a wifi lav Mike anyway) while someone’s giving a speech about equal rights…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGl2qGbSRg

onearmedbandit

6th February 2025, 19:31

and also see Guy Williams (quite a likeable comedian) get owned twice.

Ha someone edited his wiki page

R650R

6th February 2025, 19:40

Ha someone edited his wiki page

Oh bugger lol. You really have to wonder why he was there though. I mean all his nz today stuff is epic from Karen wants her $20 and the inside line on Huntley life.
I think Seymour will replace Winston eventually as the politician for holding media in check, neither let anyone get away with twisting what they have said, that takes some sharp mental awuity to pull off.

sugilite

7th February 2025, 18:03

Interesting perspective - video within link.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360573105/treaty-principles-bill-tiktok-and-david-seymours-strange-victim-complex

husaberg

7th February 2025, 18:49

Oh bugger lol. You really have to wonder why he was there though. I mean all his nz today stuff is epic from Karen wants her $20 and the inside line on Huntley life.
I think Seymour will replace Winston eventually as the politician for holding media in check, neither let anyone get away with twisting what they have said, that takes some sharp mental awuity to pull off.

Weren't you the same fellow that thought this

Wow Prsident Biden is so busy building America back better he's cancelled the inauguration ceremony and told people to stay home.
Man the freee world is so lucky to have such a popular leader he didn't even have to campaign to win. And so cool he's giving the national guard herd immunity by having 1000 soldiers each from over 30 states sleep on the floor of the capital building where all the super spreader republican posters have just been.
The guy is a genius.
You know when guys are so popular like 84 million votes we just shouldn't even have elections anymore they just cause conflict. The media with their super accurate polls are better suited to picking our leaders we should just trust the, to do it.
I can't wait to see Biden build back a better America. It's high time he busted that border wall so all he corporates can have cheap labour and not have to hire over educated lazy Americans that want capitalist stuff like minimum wages and healthcare.
It's so great that we have great leaders who will make us all equal so soon. I feel so guilty of my white privilege owning a house and working for ,y money. It's so great they going to reset that so we all equal and own nothing so don't have to waste money on insurance. I'm tired of making my own decisions in life, it will be great having govt telling me which products to buy.
Flying to North Korea next week as I can't wait for the trickle down effect, I want to have nothing now. If I get any good deals on hyosung or daewoo machinery I will sell here first to my friends.
I have covid 21 vaccine e pediment already too isn I feel great never better.
I inv step all my savings in Boeing and fly on new max 800 the safest plane Korea going to buy them cheap and re brand as Earbus the sound of freedom.
Take care mo friends I have not lot internet where go next now.

I was done from trying to rescue the Stockholm syndrome affected posters in here but this was too good not to post....

CNN interviews high ranking ANTIFA member who disguised himself as Trump supporter with a hat and was at the front row of the shooting incident along with another infiltrator.
100% pure agent provocateurs and bound to be more as these pussies never do anything without at least a couple dozen masked morons.....
This guy was already identified early in other forums and images, but here he is outed on mainstream news. Bet the ERF BEEEE EYE don't touch him though.....

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/caught-video-antifa-protester-john-sullivan-brags-posing-trump-supporter-breaking-window-us-capitol-building-riots/

TheDemonLord

5th March 2025, 16:33

To clarify a few things - When it comes to the end-goal, I do not believe that most Maori want Communism, at all. Only a small number of Academics, Activists and Politicians want that.

The issue is that they use the following narrative:

The Colonizers took Utopia for you, did nothing for you, put you in prison, stole your lands - if we get rid of them, we can live in Utopia again!

And just like you identified with Debbie Ngarewa-Packer - when pushed for the real answer, she goes awfully evasive - because I think they know it wont fly.

Where I perhaps disagree with you is where the balance is currently. For the sake of Argument, let us say you and I went to either the Waitangi Tribunal, the Beehive Civil Service or the University courses that teach the subjects that feed into these areas. I feel confident that I could take a firehose, turn it full blast, swing it around the respective rooms and never once get an ACT voter wet (you and I excluded of course).

I bet though I would get quite a few open Marxists and I would *definitely* get a large number of people who believed in Decolonization (even if they may not know what the end-goal actually is).

And whilst it is up to them to interpret what the Principles are, they will lean in favor of their world view, ignoring historical context, engaging in judicial activism, opting for a Living Document view, rather than an Originalist and Textualist approach.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360602381/newly-appointed-richard-prebble-ditches-socialist-waitangi-tribunal

Richard Prebble has quit the Waitangi Tribunal only months after his appointment to a body he has slammed as pushing a “socialist manifesto”.

Surprise Surprise.

I do love being vindicated as correct.

sugilite

11th March 2025, 12:38

So now it is a liquid lunch david?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360608676/free-school-lunch-provider-goes-liquidation

Latest photos, erm yum?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/media/images/9Tzi8ywRz924XE3uHaD6DZ3Ef+IdbOiYlvIROR5vlqUeRrexTo cZGobKRJ9od%2Fgnk3B%2FCeKTmTAsIjj6Q0YaYXq6jYhG+BTn 8mF6RvPIWe975gY2bm6LqQ5r00bkODOPYlDvThCNU4UeAnhPyy KSKZtolN7s%2FKhEsg%2FWwvAns+6w9cwj%2FWS9qpESZFjyr5 nhLiBI6RR4myUl8PlZ7nhlEx9XH6iXMU04M+gMuoYq2sU=?res olution=1240x700

sugilite

21st March 2025, 12:23

neels

21st March 2025, 12:58

He knew 5 days before, but slipped his mind to tell the education minister.
Fuck off seymour

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360623637/seymour-knew-about-impending-libelle-collapse-five-days-and-still-didnt-tell-stanford
The headline is probably factually accurate, there is however a degree of insinuation with the use of the word 'still' to imply there was some sort of omission or deception involved.

Reading the actual detail of the article, Seymour was briefed by ministry of education officials, and then passed the information on to the prime ministers office. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that the ministry should be the ones informing their minister, or the prime ministers office informing one of their ministers of such information.

This looks very much like the media trying to beat up a story that places blame where it doesn't belong, to keep the school lunch debacle (which it is) in the news.