So, Cost of Living increases

[TheDemonLord]

Let's outline the various positions from Left to Right

1: Workers of the world unite! The end of the Capitalist system is at hand! Let us rejoice!
2: This is a global issue caused by a myriad of factors outside of anyones control
3: There are global factors, but there are also a number of actions taken domestically that have been causal and a number of opportunities to ease the increase which have not been taken
4: This is a direct result of Government intervention and Policy, both domestic and international - and ideology prevents them from taken steps to reverse it
5: Fuck Jacinda, Biden, Boris, Trudeau and the rest of them.
6: Taxation is Theft!

I think most of you know that using that highly accurate scale, I'm sitting at about a 4.95 (when I'm in a good mood).

However, I'm starting to feel the inevitable creep of price increases, much to my annoyance. And since I don't expect it to go away soon (and not whilst we have a certain aforementioned Government in power), I feel it is time to start a thread to discuss, share points of view, sling shit at each other - all that good KB stuff.

[R650R]

Well we know the Elite want to destroy cash and replace it with their own brand of crypto currency.
The only way to make people accept what they don’t want is to destroy the existing system.
So much like a CEO taking a broom and hiring people that are loyal to him..... we are seeing the start of the “great reset” where anyone not on board will be tossed overboard....

To cut a long story short crippling economic pains is coming to everyone. They will smash everything and we’ll end up like teenagers begging for pocket money from parents except the parents will be the govt.

There’s is nowhere to run to, no magic “safe” investment strategy. All you can bank on is alliances with neighbours and family to counter the most brutal breakdown in human society that humanity has ever seen. The only wealth will be to have skills or useful survival tools to barter with.

[MD]

Hey not a bad topic to open for some shit slinging. I have no idea how old you are TDL but I have broken the big 60 and have some life experience under my belt on this topic. 39 years in banking I have been over exposed to having to following interest rates, fx rates, currencies, inflation GPD this GDP that, and all that boring economic fluff. No wonder I smoked weed back then after economics classes.

I have had so many customers over decades ask me what will interest rates do next year, what will the XYZ Dollar do next year, what will inflation do ... My standard answer was usually - Good thing you asked me that Bob because I have been forced to study [insert boring f%$^#$ topic] on your bloody behalf for f*&%$ years and I can unreservedly, without doubt answer your question. Get ready. It will go up and it will go down- as it has for bloody centuries. Build a bridge and get over it.

Who remembers trying to buy their first house in the mid 80s with mortgages at 23% and inflation and unemployment climbing steeper than the Columbia space shuttle. Ok that's a stink comment, I got a bank staff transfer mortgage at 7% when my friends were all crying about paying 23%. The good ole days.

Back to your opening Qs. Unfortunately I do not believe we can lay the blame on a single entity/government. As much as I would like to blame this useless pack of B$%%# we currently have. They sure haven't helped the situation. It is simply the wheels of global commerce beyond most countries ability to influence. Shit happens. I got my first car when petrol was way under $1 a gallon. Yeah, I said a GALLON. We were all shocked in disbelief when it hit $1 a gallon but so naive we didn't comprehend that prices may just keep going up and up and up for the rest of our lives.

Exchange rates are driven primarily by interest rates and look at a century of data in any fx or int. rates or inflation graphs. Goes up. Goes down. Goes up. Goes down...

Unfortunately our blissful period in the 'flat calm' has come to an end. Seriously though I might have to dig up the back lawn and plant veges. I love silver beet and fresh lettuce but at $5.99 each! Like me and my young friends in the 80s I now feel worried for the current young generation starting out faced with rising prices, home ownership beyond reach and wages stagnant. Hey that sounds just like something I heard some old codger say to me in 1977

[jim.cox]

6: Taxation is Theft!


I'd rather pay reasonable taxes to provide public health care and other essential services than end up the way the US has gone

Downtown LA (even 40 years ago) - no thanks

Just my $0.02

[TheDemonLord]

I'd rather pay reasonable taxes to provide public health care and other essential services than end up the way the US has gone

Downtown LA (even 40 years ago) - no thanks

Just my $0.02

To be clear - I'm not a Taxation is Theft person, although the more of my money they piss away on vanity projects, ideological projects and alike and the more ungrateful they are for my Tax Dollars, the more and more I warm to that position.

I don't mind paying Tax per se, at the moment I think I pay a bit too much on certain things (GST and the Fuel taxes specifically), but overall - I want a functioning society and that comes with certain costs.

What Irks me is things like the $500,000 Parliament slide - I know it's not a huge expense, but it's the principle of the Matter - MPs are well paid, by us, the Tax payer - if they want a fancy slide, then they should pay for it out of their pocket or they should be a little more fiscally conservative. I mean a US based site gives the average cost in USD for a Playground slide at between $3k-5k, topping out at $20k. That would make the Parliament slide nearly 100 times more expensive than the Average.

Some will likely want to argue the point - but as I said, I feel this is a good symbolic example of the wasteful ways in which my Tax money is spent.

Other things like Diversity and Inclusion Commisars for Government entities - DIE is just a massive Marxist rort, and paying on average around $130K...

And to top it all off, all we ever hear is that 'The rich aren't paying their fair share' - when 80% of the Income tax is paid by 20% of the people, I think they are more than paying their fair share.

[TheDemonLord]

Hey not a bad topic to open for some shit slinging. I have no idea how old you are TDL but I have broken the big 60 and have some life experience under my belt on this topic. 39 years in banking I have been over exposed to having to following interest rates, fx rates, currencies, inflation GPD this GDP that, and all that boring economic fluff. No wonder I smoked weed back then after economics classes.

I have had so many customers over decades ask me what will interest rates do next year, what will the XYZ Dollar do next year, what will inflation do ... My standard answer was usually - Good thing you asked me that Bob because I have been forced to study [insert boring f%$^#$ topic] on your bloody behalf for f*&%$ years and I can unreservedly, without doubt answer your question. Get ready. It will go up and it will go down- as it has for bloody centuries. Build a bridge and get over it.

Who remembers trying to buy their first house in the mid 80s with mortgages at 23% and inflation and unemployment climbing steeper than the Columbia space shuttle. Ok that's a stink comment, I got a bank staff transfer mortgage at 7% when my friends were all crying about paying 23%. The good ole days.

Back to your opening Qs. Unfortunately I do not believe we can lay the blame on a single entity/government. As much as I would like to blame this useless pack of B$%%# we currently have. They sure haven't helped the situation. It is simply the wheels of global commerce beyond most countries ability to influence. Shit happens. I got my first car when petrol was way under $1 a gallon. Yeah, I said a GALLON. We were all shocked in disbelief when it hit $1 a gallon but so naive we didn't comprehend that prices may just keep going up and up and up for the rest of our lives.

Exchange rates are driven primarily by interest rates and look at a century of data in any fx or int. rates or inflation graphs. Goes up. Goes down. Goes up. Goes down...

Unfortunately our blissful period in the 'flat calm' has come to an end. Seriously though I might have to dig up the back lawn and plant veges. I love silver beet and fresh lettuce but at $5.99 each! Like me and my young friends in the 80s I now feel worried for the current young generation starting out faced with rising prices, home ownership beyond reach and wages stagnant. Hey that sounds just like something I heard some old codger say to me in 1977

I'm in my 30s and I've heard the horror stories from my In-Laws about the 20% mortgage rates.

For me - I would put the current issues at around 80:20 - where the 80 is Government Policy, not just in NZ but amongst the major trading powers. I do agree that it will go down, eventually - the question is when, by how much and what will be the cost of forcing it down?

[pete376403]

I believe fallout from climate change will make the financial troubles look like a minor inconvenience. When increased desertification and droughts make it impossible for the people living between the tropics to grow sufficient food, they will want to move north and south. 1,3 billion Indians, 270 million Indonesians, 100 million Vietnamese, etc., with their eyes on NZ - they wont bother with Australia because it is mainly desert anyway and will only get worse.
I have no concern for my own life (its nearly over), my kids may find things a bit difficult, but my grandkids, and great grandkids - they are going to suffer.

[jim.cox]

but my grandkids, and great grandkids - they are going to suffer.

At least they will have the natural and significant advantage of being Kiwis :)

[TheDemonLord]

I believe fallout from climate change will make the financial troubles look like a minor inconvenience. When increased desertification and droughts make it impossible for the people living between the tropics to grow sufficient food, they will want to move north and south. 1,3 billion Indians, 270 million Indonesians, 100 million Vietnamese, etc., with their eyes on NZ - they wont bother with Australia because it is mainly desert anyway and will only get worse.
I have no concern for my own life (its nearly over), my kids may find things a bit difficult, but my grandkids, and great grandkids - they are going to suffer.

I believe that in time, like all of the other 'Climate Catastrophes', we will be in much the same position as we've always been.

[Berries]

I blame Thatcher.

[TheDemonLord]

I blame Thatcher.

Did you know, that if you say her name 5 times in front of a Mirror, she will rise from the dead and shut down an inefficient northern industry?

[Berries]

Fletcher Building?

[TheDemonLord]

Fletcher Building?

For that I believe you need to say 'Muldoon'
















(Okay, I'm an immigrant, if that isn't correct NZ Prime Minister to roast, then change as seen fit)

[James Deuce]

I'd rather pay reasonable taxes to provide public health care and other essential services than end up the way the US has gone

Downtown LA (even 40 years ago) - no thanks

Just my $0.02

Completely with you on social obligation. Sick to death of paying taxes on taxes.

[pete376403]

I believe that in time, like all of the other 'Climate Catastrophes', we will be in much the same position as we've always been.

Fun times ahead ; "Second, deep human history warns us that when climate patterns did change significantly, the result was societal collapse, war, epidemics, and fundamental restructurings of the geography and structures of human communities."

https://origins.osu.edu/article/climate-human-population-and-human-survival-what-deep-past-tells-us-about-future?language_content_entity=en

[TheDemonLord]

Fun times ahead ; "Second, deep human history warns us that when climate patterns did change significantly, the result was societal collapse, war, epidemics, and fundamental restructurings of the geography and structures of human communities."

https://origins.osu.edu/article/climate-human-population-and-human-survival-what-deep-past-tells-us-about-future?language_content_entity=en

You mean all those times that happened in Nature and nothing to do with Human Activity, yes?

[pete376403]

You mean all those times that happened in Nature and nothing to do with Human Activity, yes?

Yes if you like. Why it happened is one thing, but it did happen and regardless of cause, the results were not pretty. That is not to say that human activity does not have a bearing on it, it does whether you want to deny it or not, the end result will be the same, and the science, again whether you agree or not, shows that human activity is accelerating the effect. But I'm almost 70 so not a lot of time left to "enjoy" the results. You however admit to bring in your 30s so another 40-50 years to find out who was right.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes if you like. Why it happened is one thing, but it did happen and regardless of cause, the results were not pretty. That is not to say that human activity does not have a bearing on it, it does whether you want to deny it or not, the end result will be the same, and the science, again whether you agree or not, shows that human activity is accelerating the effect. But I'm almost 70 so not a lot of time left to "enjoy" the results. You however admit to bring in your 30s so another 40-50 years to find out who was right.

Why it happened is perhaps the most important thing.

I've said elsewhere that as a general rule, I'm not opposed to voluntary environmental actions - more efficient appliances, using less plastics, recycling more etc. I'm opposed to Government mandated environmentalism - but that's different. Things like the clean up Oceans project - I actually support, because it's a clever way to deal to a problem. Whereas things like Carbon Credits are just a massive Scam that I want no part of, they are just a repackaged version of the Catholic Indulgences.

My Issue is the 'End is Nigh' rhetoric. I've lived through Environmental scares and I've read the history of the claims going back to the 50s, there are numerous examples of apocalyptic predictions being made that in the maturation of time - have been false. So I'm skeptical.

Is it Man-Made or is it Natural? Our reference point for determining that is so tiny compared to the time frames of the planet that it would be laughable. Not to mention the starting point for accurate weather data was called 'The mini Ice age'. So again, I'm skeptical.

On the flip-side the proposed solutions to this are so radical that they are worse than the problem itself. Not to mention the anti-Humanist element of the extreme Environmental wing, not to mention strong political leanings that I fundamentally don't agree with. I'm even more skeptical.

Not only that, but consider the cost that we are paying now to prop up these 'Green initiatives', Tax payer money to fund inefficient industry and making Rich people Richer - and not just the Dollar value cost, there are a myriad of knock-on effects - for example, linking back to this thread, In the UK, nearly 25% of energy prices are taxes specifically to pay for 'Green' industries.

I use quotation marks because some of them aren't as green as they would want us to believe them to be.

Finally, we have a number of methods to potentially mitigate a disastrous weather event - case in point the revival and lessons learned from the Dust Bowl of the 1930s

TL;DR - everything has a cost and some costs are not worth the price.

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

I blame Geoffrey Palmer

His one year as Prime Minister ruined my happy childhood.

[Berries]

And his five daughters no doubt.

[roogazza]

I blame Geoffrey Palmer

His one year as Prime Minister ruined my happy childhood.

haha the current one pisses me off and I'm old !!!!!
I was in DPS but sure as hell wouldn't be protecting her nowdays !!! :bleh::bleh:

[pete376403]

Why it happened is perhaps the most important thing.

I disagree - the "why" is important only if steps are taken to stop doing the same thing again. The "what resulted" seems more important.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result".

[TheDemonLord]

I disagree - the "why" is important only if steps are taken to stop doing the same thing again. The "what resulted" seems more important.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result".

But what if the steps that are proposed to be taken are predicated on the wrong 'Why'?

To use a Medical analogy - if a Doctor suggested that cutting your leg off was the only way to stop you from dying, you might question it a little, depending.

If you had gone to that same Doctor for different Ailments, and each time their response was 'I think we need to Amputate your Leg', you might start to wonder whether or not they are trying to justify amputating your leg.

It could be that you absolutely need to amputate your leg, it could also be that like all the other times, you'll be fine.

Hence the Why is critically important when we are talking about radically altering just about every facet of modern society.

[R650R]

You mean all those times that happened in Nature and nothing to do with Human Activity, yes?

This dude does some interesting sciencey stuff tracing our faultlunes etc....

However in this video he’s kind enough at the 5min mark to slip in a graph that goes back 800,000 years. All his science mates will be very unhappy. It show some MAJOR climates cycles before man and industry and if you look closely the million year trend is slightly warming.
He also slips in we are due for cooling in anouther several thousand years.

But the “forecast” is for our current level of increase to be irreversible and the steepness of the spike doesn’t not match the timeline very well...


https://youtu.be/ZPI0iRNSThU

[pete376403]

This dude does some interesting sciencey stuff tracing our faultlunes etc....

However in this video he’s kind enough at the 5min mark to slip in a graph that goes back 800,000 years. All his science mates will be very unhappy. It show some MAJOR climates cycles before man and industry and if you look closely the million year trend is slightly warming.
He also slips in we are due for cooling in anouther several thousand years.

But the “forecast” is for our current level of increase to be irreversible and the steepness of the spike doesn’t not match the timeline very well...

Did you actually watch and listen? He is saying that previously there were natural cycle of warming and cooling, but recent human activity has changed things enough that there will be no cooling cycle in future.

[F5 Dave]

Watch something. Select some words that seem to agree with your narrative. Stop thinking. Post on internet.

That's why 666 has been on ignore for so long. Just a waste of bandwidth.

[R650R]

Did you actually watch and listen? He is saying that previously there were natural cycle of warming and cooling, but recent human activity has changed things enough that there will be no cooling cycle in future.

Yeah that’s what I said and why I posted it.... as for the future, we’ve seen in last 40 years of CO2 propoganda just how accurate those are, the 1.5m sea level rise never arrived for starters....
My point in posting is he is saying there are NATURALLY occurring cooling cycles evidently occurring with a regular timeline from well before human activity. This suggests that the suns solar cycles or other known space radiation events play a lot more input than a trace element at 380 parts per million....

Draw a grid on a large piece of paper, 1000mm L by 1000m H, that’s what a million square millimetres looks like. Now on your vertical axis draw 400 random 1mm2 dots on your grid.
That’s what 400parts per million looks like.
Do you fancy that as a summer beach umbrella or a shower privacy curtain????

[pete376403]

. This suggests that the suns solar cycles or other known space radiation events play a lot more input than a trace element at 380 parts per million....
Do you fancy that as a summer beach umbrella or a shower privacy curtain????

Pretty stupid analogy but even your number is wrong. Based on preliminary analysis, the global average atmospheric carbon dioxide in 2020 was 412.5 parts per million (ppm for short), setting a new record high amount despite the economic slowdown due to the COVID-19 pandemic. In fact, the jump of 2.6 ppm over 2019 levels was the fifth-highest annual increase in NOAA's 63-year record. Since 2000, the global atmospheric carbon dioxide amount has grown by 43.5 ppm, an increase of 12 percent.

[pritch]

Well we know the Elite want to destroy cash and replace it with their own brand of crypto currency.


We do?????

[pritch]

This dude does some interesting sciencey stuff tracing our faultlunes etc....

However in this video he’s kind enough at the 5min mark to slip in a graph that goes back 800,000 years. All his science mates will be very unhappy. It show some MAJOR climates cycles before man and industry and if you look closely the million year trend is slightly warming.
He also slips in we are due for cooling in anouther several thousand years.

But the “forecast” is for our current level of increase to be irreversible and the steepness of the spike doesn’t not match the timeline very well...



The only thing I disagree with is right at the end, he says humans are controlling climate change. "Control" is the wrong word, it's out of control. Humans are causing climate change yes, but they're not controlling it.

[F5 Dave]

Truck Driver for Earth Scientist .

Ladies front bottom.

[wetanz]

Let's outline the various positions from Left to Right

1: Workers of the world unite! The end of the Capitalist system is at hand! Let us rejoice!
2: This is a global issue caused by a myriad of factors outside of anyones control
3: There are global factors, but there are also a number of actions taken domestically that have been causal and a number of opportunities to ease the increase which have not been taken
4: This is a direct result of Government intervention and Policy, both domestic and international - and ideology prevents them from taken steps to reverse it
5: Fuck Jacinda, Biden, Boris, Trudeau and the rest of them.
6: Taxation is Theft!

I think most of you know that using that highly accurate scale, I'm sitting at about a 4.95 (when I'm in a good mood).

However, I'm starting to feel the inevitable creep of price increases, much to my annoyance. And since I don't expect it to go away soon (and not whilst we have a certain aforementioned Government in power), I feel it is time to start a thread to discuss, share points of view, sling shit at each other - all that good KB stuff.

1 - we dont have a capitalist system, never have (we have capital controls and a myriad of regulation), we have a fascistic, oligarchic system with marxist philosophy, yes people need to unite and break this but what will we get in return

2 - this is a global issue and is completely controlled - we are watching a deliberately controlled destruction of the very sinew of society (do you really think our controllers are going to put their wealth at risk - no, this is the last major asset grab before these c..ts openly start taking each other out

3 - actions are global not local ... this is the destruction of the west coordinated by the wef and its handlers ... 3rd world countries will feel the effects worst first, see bangaladesh for example, starvation, riots, bloodshed - will fix nothing though - the one country that will survive is russia so long as putin retains control after 2024 (elections in us, russia, eu head, ukraine)

4, 5 and 6 - i have no dispute with

note, your nr 4 contradicts your nr 2 ... you state 'outside of anyones control' and then 'This is a direct result of Government intervention and Policy' ... it is both controlled and deliberate

[wetanz]

For that I believe you need to say 'Muldoon'

historically correct, however as an old bastard (pre-muldoon) i can say that the only pm that cared for nz people was norman kirk, david lange tried but got lumbered with douglas ... clarke, key and the jackal are all not far behind muldoon

[TheDemonLord]

1 - we dont have a capitalist system, never have (we have capital controls and a myriad of regulation), we have a fascistic, oligarchic system with marxist philosophy, yes people need to unite and break this but what will we get in return

2 - this is a global issue and is completely controlled - we are watching a deliberately controlled destruction of the very sinew of society (do you really think our controllers are going to put their wealth at risk - no, this is the last major asset grab before these c..ts openly start taking each other out

3 - actions are global not local ... this is the destruction of the west coordinated by the wef and its handlers ... 3rd world countries will feel the effects worst first, see bangaladesh for example, starvation, riots, bloodshed - will fix nothing though - the one country that will survive is russia so long as putin retains control after 2024 (elections in us, russia, eu head, ukraine)

4, 5 and 6 - i have no dispute with

note, your nr 4 contradicts your nr 2 ... you state 'outside of anyones control' and then 'This is a direct result of Government intervention and Policy' ... it is both controlled and deliberate

I think you missed what I meant - I wasn't saying I believed all of those options, merely outlining what I consider to be a Radical Left Wing position, all the way to the radical right wing.

So of course in those positions they are going to disagree with.

[mashman]

..........yes people need to unite and break this but what will we get in return..........

What do you want?... because you seem to know what you're going to get otherwise.

[wetanz]

what do i want?

unfortunately this system is unfixable ... the type of person attracted to politics is restricted, most know/feel the system is corrupt so those that enter politics are generally those that see an advantage for themselves and their backers, honest people are quickly sorted out and 'cancelled'

this is a spiritual battle, put in black and white terms, 'good vs evil', a battle for souls, the current transhuman agenda is altering the very dna of our humanity

over the coming decade, at a minimum, millions will die from starvation, violence, disease, the death jab, by 2023/2024 europe will probably be at war and later break up (germany vs the rest), usa will break up, nth vs sth?, east vs west? libtard vs conservative? swift is now a political tool, china has been building, the west has been destroying, russia has massive resources

we live inside a giant ponzi scheme, learn what a credit derivative is, this will soon bust, is deflating already, dont keep shit in the bank, dont expect any superanuation, pay off your debt, there are only 3 days worth of food stock inside any supermarket - better prepare

here in nzl we have a corrupted treaty being used to destroy conservatism, this will lead to major problems in a society that has been, to a large degree, deweaponised ... as the structure begins to breakdown you better hope you have land, skills, tools, physical gold and silver, a garden and a way to protect yourself

gangs are going to become confrontational and will control large territories (it wont be madmax but it wont be 'nice'), best learn maori, get fit, learn aikido

this is not what i want but one has to be realistic - i wont get what i want because i am too honest, in any case it is too late to avoid the shit, look at history - all societies that have given up their weapons have been killed - im honest but pissed off, and you should be too, we are the silent majority but lack leadership

this is what is missing - honest leadership - and is what i fear we will never see

what do you want?

[James Deuce]

historically correct, however as an old bastard (pre-muldoon) i can say that the only pm that cared for nz people was norman kirk, david lange tried but got lumbered with douglas ... clarke, key and the jackal are all not far behind muldoon

Norm Kirk gets painted like that but he was staunchly conservative in his personal views, to the detriment of society in general.

[wetanz]

Norm Kirk gets painted like that but he was staunchly conservative in his personal views, to the detriment of society in general.

- staunchly pushed for improved regional economic development
- worked together with aus to adopt foreign policy more independant of the us
- was highly critical of us foreign policy esp. wrt chile
- opposed french nuclear testing
- prevented the 73 springbok tour
- withdrew troops from vietnam
- prevented the raising of manopouri
- began with budget surpluses but was left to deal with nixons removal of the gold standard and the resultant inflationary spiral

- the only thing i think may be considered negative would be his instigation of dawn raids which he stopped after a month (later to be reinstated aggressively by muldoon)

[Berries]

Tin foil sales are on the up again.

[wetanz]

tin foil makes great faraday cages

[mashman]

what do i want?

unfortunately this system is unfixable ... the type of person attracted to politics is restricted, most know/feel the system is corrupt so those that enter politics are generally those that see an advantage for themselves and their backers, honest people are quickly sorted out and 'cancelled'

The system is being used in ways it shouldn't be used. We can ship anything anywhere, but do so based on financial viability and not need. The rest comes under the category of Voter Education i.e. knowing what you don't want, but only because you know what you do want.



this is a spiritual battle, put in black and white terms, 'good vs evil', a battle for souls, the current transhuman agenda is altering the very dna of our humanity

Not for the majority of mankind it seams. Physical realms still need economies to furnish basic goods and services don't they? ;)



over the coming decade, at a minimum, millions will die from starvation, violence, disease, the death jab, by 2023/2024 europe will probably be at war and later break up (germany vs the rest), usa will break up, nth vs sth?, east vs west? libtard vs conservative? swift is now a political tool, china has been building, the west has been destroying, russia has massive resources

They already do and have been for an exceptionally long time, and all for no good reason, just opinionated reasons. Structural Violence.



we live inside a giant ponzi scheme, learn what a credit derivative is, this will soon bust, is deflating already, dont keep shit in the bank, dont expect any superanuation, pay off your debt, there are only 3 days worth of food stock inside any supermarket - better prepare

here in nzl we have a corrupted treaty being used to destroy conservatism, this will lead to major problems in a society that has been, to a large degree, deweaponised ... as the structure begins to breakdown you better hope you have land, skills, tools, physical gold and silver, a garden and a way to protect yourself

gangs are going to become confrontational and will control large territories (it wont be madmax but it wont be 'nice'), best learn maori, get fit, learn aikido


Such would not turn out nicely. Madmax is a pipe-dream by comparison. I don't consider 450+ active nuclear reactors no longer being maintained by man given some societal collapse going in mans favour either... nor the man-made pathogen relase that would accompany the eventual decay of stuff in general without a functioning power grid. Oh so doom and gloom, but all things that exist and in theory should be worthy of consideration when plotting ones course forward.



this is not what i want but one has to be realistic - i wont get what i want because i am too honest, in any case it is too late to avoid the shit, look at history - all societies that have given up their weapons have been killed - im honest but pissed off, and you should be too, we are the silent majority but lack leadership

this is what is missing - honest leadership - and is what i fear we will never see

Knowing what we actually want is far more important than leadership. 'They' have leaders, and their ideas of insane. Anyone against an idea that fits the bill has an agenda that isn't based in any form of self-mutual-interest. It's up to the people and their education to keep politicians honest. All we see is failure, and as much as the gvts of the world play their part, the way we live is is so fucking stupid we are highly likely to off ourselvevs anyway.



what do you want?

I want people to start using their brains instead of, well, whatever other guiding star they use. Infinite growth on a finite planet does not work. Logic, reason and common sense dictates that some generation will either stand up and do something about that salient FACT, or they'll simply continue mimic their parents and complain about taxes and governments self-serving interest whilst denying their own as if that behaviour is somehow beneficial to human beings in general. Or some approximation of that, heh heh, is what I want. Alas, we consider ourselves too small for such a task... hence we'd need to unite over something in order to make other agendas unobtainable and vice versa for new agendas i.e. do what we can do because we have what we need to do it now.

[James Deuce]

- staunchly pushed for improved regional economic development
- worked together with aus to adopt foreign policy more independant of the us
- was highly critical of us foreign policy esp. wrt chile
- opposed french nuclear testing
- prevented the 73 springbok tour
- withdrew troops from vietnam
- prevented the raising of manopouri
- began with budget surpluses but was left to deal with nixons removal of the gold standard and the resultant inflationary spiral

- the only thing i think may be considered negative would be his instigation of dawn raids which he stopped after a month (later to be reinstated aggressively by muldoon)
Anti-homosexual law reform, anti-abortion. Delayed legislative change that took 10 years to rework and potentially cost lives in the early 80s.

[wetanz]

Anti-homosexual law reform, anti-abortion. Delayed legislative change that took 10 years to rework and potentially cost lives in the early 80s.

im personally not on the lgbt or abortion train and look forward to roe vs wade being overturned ... kirk valued families - that means man, woman, children

"there are four things that matter to people: they have to have somewhere to live, they have to have food to eat, they have to have clothing to wear, and they have to have something to hope for," Norman Kirk


Delayed legislative change ... explain

[wetanz]

@ mashman

we need both leadership and to know what we want ... they are complimentary ... the problem is, the conservatives have no real leadership and politic has evolve into a uniparty

this is rooted in our miseducation pogroms ... sadly our grandfathers and great grandfathers were better educated than todays cucks ... i had kids late in life and am horrified at what they were brainwashed

[mashman]

@ mashman

we need both leadership and to know what we want ... they are complimentary ... the problem is, the conservatives have no real leadership and politic has evolve into a uniparty

this is rooted in our miseducation pogroms ... sadly our grandfathers and great grandfathers were better educated than todays cucks ... i had kids late in life and am horrified at what they were brainwashed

lol@the not quote... did the sisters of censorship get to you :killingme...



we need both leadership and to know what we want ... they are complimentary ... the problem is, the conservatives have no real leadership and politic has evolve into a uniparty

this is rooted in our miseducation pogroms ... sadly our grandfathers and great grandfathers were better educated than todays cucks ... i had kids late in life and am horrified at what they were brainwashed

Both is fine by me, so long as the population are aware of what they are voting for i.e. not the personalities, the ideas. Jacinda or not, the Labour party are moving in a collective direction that the next PM will follow, more or less, and that people feel powerless to fully change. Leaderless, multiple-leaders, have it any way you will, shit ideas with good leaders are doomed to eventual failure were they (or the party they parrot for) ignore the parameters that don't suit. It should be QED, yet... Fortunately, the party gets a pass when the leader is promoted, I mean loses their job and triples their salary in the private sector.

You were a cuck once :). I certainly was. All useful when knowing what one doesn't want eh.

[F5 Dave]

im personally not on the lgbt or abortion train and look forward to roe vs wade being overturned ... kirk valued families - that means man, woman, children

"there are four things that matter to people: they have to have somewhere to live, they have to have food to eat, they have to have clothing to wear, and they have to have something to hope for," Norman Kirk

... explain

Ahh. You expose as a Sky Pixie believer.

[nerrrd]

I think the system has become so big and so complex that it's starting to break down naturally.

I've seen enough politicians come and go to know that none of them can fix it - at least not for everyone, whatever they do always advantages some over others.

When you've sold your population on the whole 'equal opportunity for all' thing and that everyone should have the same access to education/healthcare/shelter/food/mana as everyone else, it's not surprising that those whose day to day experience doesn't match that get a bit annoyed about it. Sadly I'm not convinced we can live up to those lofty goals anymore.

We've just had a crisis with Covid, and it's exposed how fragile and overstretched the whole thing really is. A proper crisis is overdue (historically speaking) and as much as I don't want to live through one, that's probably the only thing that would get everybody paddling in the same direction again.

Meanwhile if price rises and shrinkflation are the only way businesses can see to keep going in the meantime, and consumers are struggling to keep up, I'd say that's just more evidence of the whole system breaking down.

[TheDemonLord]

I think the system has become so big and so complex that it's starting to break down naturally.

I've seen enough politicians come and go to know that none of them can fix it - at least not for everyone, whatever they do always advantages some over others.

I think they can fix it... by admitting they can't fix it and let the individuals get on with it.


When you've sold your population on the whole 'equal opportunity for all' thing and that everyone should have the same access to education/healthcare/shelter/food/mana as everyone else, it's not surprising that those whose day to day experience doesn't match that get a bit annoyed about it. Sadly I'm not convinced we can live up to those lofty goals anymore.

It's not a case of Equal Opportunity for all - that's something almost everyone believes in.

It's the problem of when you have Equal Opportunity, you don't get Equal Outcomes - which is essentially the problem.


We've just had a crisis with Covid, and it's exposed how fragile and overstretched the whole thing really is. A proper crisis is overdue (historically speaking) and as much as I don't want to live through one, that's probably the only thing that would get everybody paddling in the same direction again.

I wouldn't say Fragile and Overstretched - I would say it's exposed how badly Politicians can fuck things up.

I do agree that we could do with a great uniting event, the question is what is the cost?


Meanwhile if price rises and shrinkflation are the only way businesses can see to keep going in the meantime, and consumers are struggling to keep up, I'd say that's just more evidence of the whole system breaking down.

What are businesses to do without the Consumers?

[James Deuce]

What are businesses to do without the Consumers?

Anything they want. They literally care less about consumers than politicians, so long as the next Quarter's results are up. The bigger the corporation, the more oblivious they are to the fundamental truth that without paying people enough to live, they can't buy shit.

[pete376403]

Anything they want. They literally care less about consumers than politicians, so long as the next Quarter's results are up. The bigger the corporation, the more oblivious they are to the fundamental truth that without paying people enough to live, they can't buy shit.

Even arch-capitalist Henry Ford realised this. He paid his workers higher than average, not because he thought they deserved any more, but that with more money in their pockets they would buy his cars. The same Henry Ford who paid a private milita (The Ford Service Department) to violently try to break up a workers union.

[TheDemonLord]

Anything they want. They literally care less about consumers than politicians, so long as the next Quarter's results are up. The bigger the corporation, the more oblivious they are to the fundamental truth that without paying people enough to live, they can't buy shit.

And what about the Small and Medium sized businesses? They care about the Consumers, but they are also bounded by reality.

[James Deuce]

And what about the Small and Medium sized businesses? They care about the Consumers, but they are also bounded by reality.

I wasn't talking about them. But seeing as you brought it up part of that reality is the large corporates who they buy there supplies off gouge them, so those small businesses wear it at both ends. Also, there are no large businesses in NZ. A couple squeak into medium sized.

[James Deuce]

Even arch-capitalist Henry Ford realised this. He paid his workers higher than average, not because he thought they deserved any more, but that with more money in their pockets they would buy his cars. The same Henry Ford who paid a private milita (The Ford Service Department) to violently try to break up a workers union.

Henry Ford's dead mate.

[TheDemonLord]

I wasn't talking about them. But seeing as you brought it up part of that reality is the large corporates who they buy there supplies off gouge them, so those small businesses wear it at both ends. Also, there are no large businesses in NZ. A couple squeak into medium sized.

So, if there are only small and medium sized businesses in NZ, who are getting gouged by Big overseas Corporates - how can they pay their workers more?

[wetanz]

the small and medium sized companies are being deliberately squeezed out of the game

leaves the corporations controlling production and distribution ... allows regimented just in time supply lines, fully controlled distribution to those in favour ... if your social credit score doesnt fit, no food or energy

[caseye]

Shock Horror NZ Harold, squeaking loudly about another 10% increase in Fruit and Vegetables.
The 2 major players in food in NZ ARE Creaming it!
They charge for shelf space, it doesn't matter if they don't sell your product!
Is it Friday yet?
:2guns:

[James Deuce]

So, if there are only small and medium sized businesses in NZ, who are getting gouged by Big overseas Corporates - how can they pay their workers more?

I don't know what you are trying to argue. You are talking to a point I didn't raise.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't know what you are trying to argue. You are talking to a point I didn't raise.

Who is responsible for 'paying people enough to live'

Is it Big Corporates who, according to you, don't exist in NZ?
Is it Small and Medium businesses who, according to you, are squeezed at both ends?

[nerrrd]

Who is responsible for 'paying people enough to live'

Is it Big Corporates who, according to you, don't exist in NZ?
Is it Small and Medium businesses who, according to you, are squeezed at both ends?

At the moment it seems to be the government, given they're subsidising family incomes with tax credits and tenants with accommodation supplements to the tune of around 5 billion dollars per year.

[Berries]

Burn them.

[TheDemonLord]

At the moment it seems to be the government, given they're subsidising family incomes with tax credits and tenants with accommodation supplements to the tune of around 5 billion dollars per year.

- Paying people using borrowed Money
- Increasing Money supply, with no commensurate increase in value

Which then leads to

- Increase in Inflation
- causing people on static incomes to be worse off
- leading to more people needing 'subsidies'

etc. ad infinitum.

I want to point out - that this Governments tag line was 'Kindness' and 'Well being' and other such nauseating buzz-words. What is Kind or Well Being about making terrible policy decisions that disproportionately effect those worst off?

People love to rag on the Right Wing as being uncaring - but I ask you - what is kinder? Leaving people to their fate, be it good or bad - or actively assisting in their destruction?

[TheDemonLord]

Burn them.

Which ones?

There's no shortage of candidates, depending on your view point.

[R650R]

Shock Horror NZ Harold, squeaking loudly about another 10% increase in Fruit and Vegetables.
The 2 major players in food in NZ ARE Creaming it!
They charge for shelf space, it doesn't matter if they don't sell your product!
Is it Friday yet?
:2guns:

They also have all sorts of clauses that favour them too. Couple of mates setup a succussful business manufacturing and selling a boutique food product. At farmers market level they were creaming it. But when a major supermarket chain signed them it destroyed them.
At first it seemed great, national exposure for the product.... but clauses like twice a month you offer your product at a promotional price.... but then supermarket then keepsit on special for several weeks at a time. So half time they buy your product on cheap but promote it when it suits them. Unless you have massive turnover and consumer uptake the costs involved in the next step up just hammer you.

[R650R]

what do i want?

unfortunately this system is unfixable ... the type of person attracted to politics is restricted, most know/feel the system is corrupt so those that enter politics are generally those that see an advantage for themselves and their backers, honest people are quickly sorted out and 'cancelled'

this is a spiritual battle, put in black and white terms, 'good vs evil', a battle for souls, the current transhuman agenda is altering the very dna of our humanity

over the coming decade, at a minimum, millions will die from starvation, violence, disease, the death jab, by 2023/2024 europe will probably be at war and later break up (germany vs the rest), usa will break up, nth vs sth?, east vs west? libtard vs conservative? swift is now a political tool, china has been building, the west has been destroying, russia has massive resources

we live inside a giant ponzi scheme, learn what a credit derivative is, this will soon bust, is deflating already, dont keep shit in the bank, dont expect any superanuation, pay off your debt, there are only 3 days worth of food stock inside any supermarket - better prepare

here in nzl we have a corrupted treaty being used to destroy conservatism, this will lead to major problems in a society that has been, to a large degree, deweaponised ... as the structure begins to breakdown you better hope you have land, skills, tools, physical gold and silver, a garden and a way to protect yourself

gangs are going to become confrontational and will control large territories (it wont be madmax but it wont be 'nice'), best learn maori, get fit, learn aikido

this is not what i want but one has to be realistic - i wont get what i want because i am too honest, in any case it is too late to avoid the shit, look at history - all societies that have given up their weapons have been killed - im honest but pissed off, and you should be too, we are the silent majority but lack leadership

this is what is missing - honest leadership - and is what i fear we will never see

what do you want?

Stop watching Alex Jones. By the time the economy gets bad enough that you NEED gold and silver the govt will have labelled private physical holders economic terrorists and will come seize your gold. Even easier now with electronic records they will know who owns what
The govt can and will nationalise and take any asset they like in a crisis.
I agree with tools though a good tradeable commodity during crisis, a shovel to bury the dead to make the house liveable etc...
I have owned gold and made a tidy profit but it’s a big risk storing it privately, your also at the mercy of nz/usd exchange rate which often acts in reverse to counter gains.

[R650R]

I think the system has become so big and so complex that it's starting to break down naturally.

I've seen enough politicians come and go to know that none of them can fix it - at least not for everyone, whatever they do always advantages some over others.

When you've sold your population on the whole 'equal opportunity for all' thing and that everyone should have the same access to education/healthcare/shelter/food/mana as everyone else, it's not surprising that those whose day to day experience doesn't match that get a bit annoyed about it. Sadly I'm not convinced we can live up to those lofty goals anymore.

We've just had a crisis with Covid, and it's exposed how fragile and overstretched the whole thing really is. A proper crisis is overdue (historically speaking) and as much as I don't want to live through one, that's probably the only thing that would get everybody paddling in the same direction again.

Meanwhile if price rises and shrinkflation are the only way businesses can see to keep going in the meantime, and consumers are struggling to keep up, I'd say that's just more evidence of the whole system breaking down.

Correct and 100% agree. There’s thoudands of years of human history showing the ten stages of civilisation before collapse occurs, were at about step 8 or 9 now....
Hopefully it doesn’t quite happen in our lifetime, because it won’t be pretty.
And the worst thing about societal revolution is often the worst people take over through several cycles before stability occurs. This may take 10-30 years and be a very horrible time.

[nerrrd]

- Paying people using borrowed Money
- Increasing Money supply, with no commensurate increase in value

Which then leads to

- Increase in Inflation
- causing people on static incomes to be worse off
- leading to more people needing 'subsidies'

etc. ad infinitum.

I want to point out - that this Governments tag line was 'Kindness' and 'Well being' and other such nauseating buzz-words. What is Kind or Well Being about making terrible policy decisions that disproportionately effect those worst off?

People love to rag on the Right Wing as being uncaring - but I ask you - what is kinder? Leaving people to their fate, be it good or bad - or actively assisting in their destruction?

In fairness, both the items I mentioned are legacy policies from Governments past. The point being that both sides of the political coin in NZ (which I would argue is basically one-sided) have conceded that these subsidies are necessary for both businesses and a sizeable portion of the working population. I'm pretty sure they would stop them tomorrow if they thought they could and get away with it.

I'd argue that the kind of steps you've outlined above are the only things keeping the system from falling over altogether. It may yet do so. Maybe it was never sustainable in the first place.

[TheDemonLord]

In fairness, both the items I mentioned are legacy policies from Governments past. The point being that both sides of the political coin in NZ (which I would argue is basically one-sided) have conceded that these subsidies are necessary for both businesses and a sizeable portion of the working population. I'm pretty sure they would stop them tomorrow if they thought they could and get away with it.

I'd argue that the kind of steps you've outlined above are the only things keeping the system from falling over altogether. It may yet do so. Maybe it was never sustainable in the first place.

Far be it for me to stop people bashing National - however the current rapid escalation is almost entirely to do with Jacinda and co.

I mean - they could solve it - first step would be to look at Immigration, then look at the cost of doing business (specifically things like the RMA for new house builds and all the increase in regulations brought in by Labour - again under the guise of being 'kind'), then stop printing money and seriously look at the wastage in Government departments. etc. etc.

Whilst I see the point you make - I view this more akin to giving a Heroin addict a steady supply of drugs, rather than forcing them to go Cold Turkey. In this thread, people have raised the Spectre of The Iron Lady - and I see what she did as a solution to the types of Mess that we are currently in.

And to quote the Lady:

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

[wetanz]

Stop watching Alex Jones. By the time the economy gets bad enough that you NEED gold and silver the govt will have labelled private physical holders economic terrorists and will come seize your gold. Even easier now with electronic records they will know who owns what
The govt can and will nationalise and take any asset they like in a crisis.
I agree with tools though a good tradeable commodity during crisis, a shovel to bury the dead to make the house liveable etc...
I have owned gold and made a tidy profit but it’s a big risk storing it privately, your also at the mercy of nz/usd exchange rate which often acts in reverse to counter gains.

-alex jones is controlled opposition and not worth listening to
-govt has already named us eco t's, (as in '51) and will (as has been done often in the past) as you correctly point out, nationalise whatever it wants - thank goodness for 'boating accidents' and spades
-gold silver ratio favours silver, an industrial metal, predominantly a byproduct of zn, au, cu, pb, u mining, peak silver production betw 2027 and 2038, with reserves set to run out by 2240, a still cheap commodity in physical form for the small investor, as the paper silver and cd mkts break physical will perform, this new green deal will increase demand for conductive metals (and super conducters ), compare au/ag with other commodities and theyre being hit thru the paper mkt (quite deliberately), best trade of course was lithium (a no brainer after the chief child hair sniffer pulled out of afghanistan)
- both au and ag have become tradeabley viable since 2005

[wetanz]

Far be it for me to stop people bashing National - however the current rapid escalation is almost entirely to do with Jacinda and co.

I mean - they could solve it - first step would be to look at Immigration, then look at the cost of doing business (specifically things like the RMA for new house builds and all the increase in regulations brought in by Labour - again under the guise of being 'kind'), then stop printing money and seriously look at the wastage in Government departments. etc. etc.

Whilst I see the point you make - I view this more akin to giving a Heroin addict a steady supply of drugs, rather than forcing them to go Cold Turkey. In this thread, people have raised the Spectre of The Iron Lady - and I see what she did as a solution to the types of Mess that we are currently in.

And to quote the Lady:

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

why should the jackal fix this, shes in lockstep with the wef, has been trained to do exactly as shes doing (re. macron, trudeau etc), national will be no better - uniparty politics, this liberal drivel using emotional undefineable touchy feely language, like 'kindness', is designed to cater for the braindead idiots spat out by the past 50 yrs of education policy

the iron lady must be exploring the bounds of her grave, god rest her soul

[TheDemonLord]

why should the jackal fix this, shes in lockstep with the wef, has been trained to do exactly as shes doing (re. macron, trudeau etc), national will be no better - uniparty politics, this liberal drivel using emotional undefineable touchy feely language, like 'kindness', is designed to cater for the braindead idiots spat out by the past 50 yrs of education policy

the iron lady must be exploring the bounds of her grave, god rest her soul

I mean, I can answer why she Should.

But I agree with why she won't.

[pete376403]

Far be it for me to stop people bashing National - however the current rapid escalation is almost entirely to do with Jacinda and co.

I mean - they could solve it - first step would be to look at Immigration, then look at the cost of doing business (specifically things like the RMA for new house builds and all the increase in regulations brought in by Labour - again under the guise of being 'kind'), then stop printing money and seriously look at the wastage in Government departments. etc. etc.

Whilst I see the point you make - I view this more akin to giving a Heroin addict a steady supply of drugs, rather than forcing them to go Cold Turkey. In this thread, people have raised the Spectre of The Iron Lady - and I see what she did as a solution to the types of Mess that we are currently in.

And to quote the Lady:

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"

Odd that you should be so enraptured with Thatcher, considering you were too young to be greatly affected while she was in power. Others dont see her in quite the same glowing light as you. Asking "People love to rag on the Right Wing as being uncaring - but I ask you - what is kinder? Leaving people to their fate, be it good or bad - or actively assisting in their destruction?" - seems to be the same thing. leave them to their fate or or hurry things up by actively assisting them to their destruction.

"You don't starve people into becoming entrepreneurs. You don't even starve them into being upstanding citizens. You just starve them into submission. Welfare dependency is submission to an economic model that shrugs at mass unemployment and says it's a fact of life. That model is Thatcherism, and a recognition of all aspects of its enormous legacy is long overdue.

Thatcherism left Britain politically, economically and regionally divided, a state that was meant to be proud that it stood for something in the world again, even as Thatcherism warned that the state was the enemy of freedom and not to be relied upon. No one could bring in change of the shape, speed and size that Thatcher did, and not expect any flaws or problems to emerge. To say that she's responsible for the country's recent triumphs, but not for any of its woes, defies all logic." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/benefited-thatcherism-admit-others-suffered

[TheDemonLord]

Odd that you should be so enraptured with Thatcher, considering you were too young to be greatly affected while she was in power. Others dont see her in quite the same glowing light as you. Asking "People love to rag on the Right Wing as being uncaring - but I ask you - what is kinder? Leaving people to their fate, be it good or bad - or actively assisting in their destruction?" - seems to be the same thing. leave them to their fate or or hurry things up by actively assisting them to their destruction.

I grew up in Post-Thatcher Britain - You are right in one sense, I didn't experience Rubbish piling up in the Streets, I didn't experience rolling Black outs, I didn't experience constant Union Strikes - and for that, I'm quite grateful.

The part you omit is that the British tax payer was subsidizing dying industries. Dying in that they no longer had the Demand, they no longer had the supply or had failed to modernize.

Industries that had once been private, forced to nationalize under the post-war Labour government and then run badly (something something Socialism something running out of other peoples money) to the point where once world-leaders, were shadows of their former self.

And this isn't mere speculation on my part - the downfall of British industry under Nationalization is well documented to the point where we know that the Labour government was subsidizing these industries to the point where it was in effect a form of Welfare.

I will grant that at the individual level, going to work and earning a Pay cheque is far more honest and fulfilling than standing in a Dole Queue.


"You don't starve people into becoming entrepreneurs. You don't even starve them into being upstanding citizens. You just starve them into submission. Welfare dependency is submission to an economic model that shrugs at mass unemployment and says it's a fact of life. That model is Thatcherism, and a recognition of all aspects of its enormous legacy is long overdue.

Thatcherism left Britain politically, economically and regionally divided, a state that was meant to be proud that it stood for something in the world again, even as Thatcherism warned that the state was the enemy of freedom and not to be relied upon. No one could bring in change of the shape, speed and size that Thatcher did, and not expect any flaws or problems to emerge. To say that she's responsible for the country's recent triumphs, but not for any of its woes, defies all logic." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/benefited-thatcherism-admit-others-suffered

Oh Look, The Guardian hating on Thatcher - may as well have said the Sky is Blue.

Now - to be fair to the point being made - there is much to say about Thatcher's treatment of the North - as above, taking away someones self-worth by essentially making them redundant and now directly dependent was ruthless.

In the grand scheme of things, I think it was a necessary evil, but every Northerner who says 'Fuck Thatcher' is not without good reason.

That said, I could easily replace words in the quote by the Guardian to describe Labour's Policy towards the Nationalized industries, it was in effect a form of Welfare dependency.

To answer the actual question posed by the Guardian - she is not responsible for it's Woes - All of her Policies were a response to the issues caused by the Labour Governments of the 1960s and 70s which were heavily influenced by Socialism (Harold Wilson) and were directly responsible for the troubles that Thatcher essentially inherited (and subsequently dealt with).

[mashman]

the small and medium sized companies are being deliberately squeezed out of the game

leaves the corporations controlling production and distribution ... allows regimented just in time supply lines, fully controlled distribution to those in favour ... if your social credit score doesnt fit, no food or energy

So what? That's business. Such is life. 'Free Markets' will always turn out that way. That some cream it is the name of the game... fuck the billions they leave in their wake, along with a further depleted planet that's just wasted a fucktonne of resources on producing more landfill simply because, well, that's how capitalism and free markets work. Humans, I dunno.

[wetanz]

So what? That's business. Such is life. 'Free Markets' will always turn out that way. That some cream it is the name of the game... fuck the billions they leave in their wake, along with a further depleted planet that's just wasted a fucktonne of resources on producing more landfill simply because, well, that's how capitalism and free markets work. Humans, I dunno.

... if you think the markets are free and we live in a capitalist society i've got a bridge to sell you

[mashman]

... if you think the markets are free and we live in a capitalist society i've got a bridge to sell you

The free market is A methodology. Capitalism is A tool. Moving towards totalitarianism as a society is what's happening using a free market methodology, meritocratised by Capitalism. That's not the predominant perspective though, hence the wheel keeps turning as it has and does. I guess that disqualifies me for the bridge. Darn, and I've got plenty of use for it given the number of people who need to get over one.

[wetanz]

The free market is A methodology. Capitalism is A tool. Moving towards totalitarianism as a society is what's happening using a free market methodology, meritocratised by Capitalism. That's not the predominant perspective though, hence the wheel keeps turning as it has and does. I guess that disqualifies me for the bridge. Darn, and I've got plenty of use for it given the number of people who need to get over one.

free markets are not regulated, debt is not capital ... methodology is a printing press (whether it be real or digital) and has no meritocracy

[pete376403]

Seems appropriate to this thread, the news that the capital markets are in freefall around the world, spooked by the fear that the Federal Reserve "might" raise interest rates.

[mashman]

free markets are not regulated, debt is not capital ... methodology is a printing press (whether it be real or digital) and has no meritocracy

Free markets can be regulated by choice. Debt is capital in some circumstances (capitalism requires credit after all). To the owners of production go the spoils and the means to be seen as the best to direct humanity (puppets or not). Meritocracy by any other name... and the same ending no matter how you classify the components.

[wetanz]

Free markets can be regulated by choice. Debt is capital in some circumstances (capitalism requires credit after all). To the owners of production go the spoils and the means to be seen as the best to direct humanity (puppets or not). Meritocracy by any other name... and the same ending no matter how you classify the components.

regulation by definition is not free ... credit is not capital (wrong side of the balance sheet), its a loan or in simpler terms a liability, unless you belong to a certain ((class)) of person it needs to be paid back with a cost, interest ... this is simply a construct to obfuscate theft on a grand scale ... these are tools of a governing system that is losing it and have been used to subjugate non-ruling people for millenia

[Viking01]

US Interest Rates and Inflation

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3181855/us-federal-reserve-makes-historic-interest-hike?module=lead_hero_story&pgtype=homepage

https://www.globalresearch.ca/fed-isnt-fighting-inflation-its-fueling-it/5783353

[Berries]

free markets are not regulated, debt is not capital ... methodology is a printing press (whether it be real or digital) and has no meritocracy
Ever thought about getting into the billboard making business?

[mashman]

regulation by definition is not free ... credit is not capital (wrong side of the balance sheet), its a loan or in simpler terms a liability, unless you belong to a certain ((class)) of person it needs to be paid back with a cost, interest ... this is simply a construct to obfuscate theft on a grand scale ... these are tools of a governing system that is losing it and have been used to subjugate non-ruling people for millenia

It has been going on for an exceptionally long time hasn't it.

[MD]

Back on topic. Threads always turn into politicking and people reaching for their Thesaurus to impress others with BIG WORDS.
I saw $5.99 for a small lettuce yesterday.

Roll on spring and I might just dig up the back lawn and plant veges. My Dad was a keen gardener and we had an excellent supply of all sorts of fresh vegetables. I doubt my parents hardly ever paid for potatoes in their life. For years I was in charge of feeding our chickens and I sold the surplus eggs to the local Dairy over the road for pocket money. Many families were quite self sufficient in the 60s and 70s when it came to growing their own food in the backyard. I guess my generation just got spoilt by the convenience of supermarkets. Now backyards are for spa pools and trampolines [guilty!]

Pleased I didn't upgrade the car a couple of years ago when I had the pipe dream of buying a Mustang. Happy to be still chugging along in the little fuel efficient hatchback. I notice more gas guzzler cars seem to be frequenting those road side places where people park up to sell their cars. I laugh at one everyday when I pass it that has been there more months. One of those early 90s Mitsubishi V6 saloons (Magna/Diamante?). A neighbour got one new in the 90s and often complained how greedy it was on fuel and said he regretted buying it.

I do think we are heading for tougher times financially but that's the cycle. I remember being worried about my staff Super fund plummeting after 1987 and again in 2008. That last one bounced back really well though after a few years. The recovery was even better than the fall so the long term trend was a bonus windfall.

[Viking01]

Back on topic. Threads always turn into politicking and people reaching for their Thesaurus to impress others with BIG WORDS. ....

I do think we are heading for tougher times financially but that's the cycle. I remember being worried about my staff Super fund plummeting after 1987 and again in 2008. That last one bounced back really well though after a few years. The recovery was even better than the fall so the long term trend was a bonus windfall.

Afternoon.
I was intrigued by your last few sentences. I'm not sure what cycle you had in mind, other than the almost regular cycle of "bank crashes" approx every 10 years since the late 1990's (i.e. 1998 recession, 2008 GFC, 2019-20 financial crisis (starting in 2019 just prior to Covid).

I hope you don't think that these events are caused by the "hand of God" (the only "hand of God" I'm familiar with was to do with Maradona in the 1986 Soccer World Cup :msn-wink: ). I think the "hand of bankers" (central and major private banker) might be more responsible.

Cheers, Viking

[george formby]

Afternoon.
I was intrigued by your last few sentences. I'm not sure what cycle you had in mind, other than the almost regular cycle of "bank crashes" approx every 10 years since the late 1990's (i.e. 1998 recession, 2008 GFC, 2019-20 financial crisis (starting in 2019 just prior to Covid).

I hope you don't think that these events are caused by the "hand of God" (the only "hand of God" I'm familiar with was to do with Maradona in the 1986 Soccer World Cup :msn-wink: ). I think the "hand of bankers" (central and major private banker) might be more responsible.

Cheers, Viking

Dunno if responsible is the word to use, but I get the gist.

[F5 Dave]

Read his long post before. Its quite clear what cycle he is talking about.

[pete376403]

Back on topic. Threads always turn into politicking and people reaching for their Thesaurus to impress others with BIG WORDS.
I saw $5.99 for a small lettuce yesterday.

Roll on spring and I might just dig up the back lawn and plant veges. My Dad was a keen gardener and we had an excellent supply of all sorts of fresh vegetables. I doubt my parents hardly ever paid for potatoes in their life. For years I was in charge of feeding our chickens and I sold the surplus eggs to the local Dairy over the road for pocket money. Many families were quite self sufficient in the 60s and 70s when it came to growing their own food in the backyard. I guess my generation just got spoilt by the convenience of supermarkets. Now backyards are for spa pools and trampolines [guilty!].

Your parents and mine had the benefit of a 1/4 acre or more section and it was expected that it would be used in this way. I now have the parents place and sometimes (usually at lawn mowing time) wish it was a bit smaller, however recently I bought an old Morrison rotary hoe, repowered it with a chinese OHV motor and closer to spring time will be ploughing in preparation for some major planting.

[TheDemonLord]

Back on topic. Threads always turn into politicking and people reaching for their Thesaurus to impress others with BIG WORDS.
I saw $5.99 for a small lettuce yesterday.

Roll on spring and I might just dig up the back lawn and plant veges. My Dad was a keen gardener and we had an excellent supply of all sorts of fresh vegetables. I doubt my parents hardly ever paid for potatoes in their life. For years I was in charge of feeding our chickens and I sold the surplus eggs to the local Dairy over the road for pocket money. Many families were quite self sufficient in the 60s and 70s when it came to growing their own food in the backyard. I guess my generation just got spoilt by the convenience of supermarkets. Now backyards are for spa pools and trampolines [guilty!]

I personally hate Gardening, however My Wife quite likes it, we have a Vegepod in the Garden and a Herb Garden - not sure what's growing in it currently - but we've had Tomatoes, Parsley, Strawberries, Pumpkins out of it.

Maybe it is time to do a bit more in the Garden...


I do think we are heading for tougher times financially but that's the cycle. I remember being worried about my staff Super fund plummeting after 1987 and again in 2008. That last one bounced back really well though after a few years. The recovery was even better than the fall so the long term trend was a bonus windfall.

That's my general consensus, that for those who are able to weather the storm, on the other side will be fine.

I'm seeing a lot of struggle though - ironically from the dyed-in-the-wool Labour types especially - and what gives me a sliver of hope is that some of them are saying things like:

"I don't want an extra Winter Energy Payment, I want things to cost less"

Also in the Hospital sector - the Mandates, despite what the media says - caused a number of trained staff to loose their jobs - one Hospital worker reckoned it was about 15-20 workers where they worked, for a Hospital system already under load, that is now chronically understaffed, which means the Staff that are left are overworked, stressed and looking elsewhere. Even if they get new nurses out of Uni or from overseas - you are still looking at a bedding period of at least 3-6 months to truly get into the groove.

[TheDemonLord]

Your parents and mine had the benefit of a 1/4 acre or more section and it was expected that it would be used in this way. I now have the parents place and sometimes (usually at lawn mowing time) wish it was a bit smaller, however recently I bought an old Morrison rotary hoe, repowered it with a chinese OHV motor and closer to spring time will be ploughing in preparation for some major planting.

Very interesting points - See, in the UK, it was the Allotment - but very much the same concept - that the family would grow, non-commercially, a number of fruit/veg to supplement their dietary needs. Indeed, my Grandparents who were part of the WW2 generation religiously kept their Allotments - My Dad still maintains a sizeable herb/vege garden.

There's something to be said about an attitude of self-sufficiency as it pertains to the practical things such as Food and also as it relates to the Political - those that are more self-reliant tend to vote for Smaller Government, whereas those who are more dependent on others vote for larger government (suffice to say, which I prefer)/

Perhaps I should force myself to have an interest in Gardening...

[nerrrd]

Also in the Hospital sector - the Mandates, despite what the media says - caused a number of trained staff to loose their jobs - one Hospital worker reckoned it was about 15-20 workers where they worked, for a Hospital system already under load, that is now chronically understaffed, which means the Staff that are left are overworked, stressed and looking elsewhere. Even if they get new nurses out of Uni or from overseas - you are still looking at a bedding period of at least 3-6 months to truly get into the groove.

It was already chronically understaffed before Covid, as this pre-Covid article suggests (apologies for the 'socialist' source material :laugh: but they quote a lot of front line sources as well.)

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1901/S00011/new-zealands-public-healthcare-crisis-worsens.htm

[TheDemonLord]

It was already chronically understaffed before Covid, as this pre-Covid article suggests (apologies for the 'socialist' source material :laugh: but they quote a lot of front line sources as well.)

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1901/S00011/new-zealands-public-healthcare-crisis-worsens.htm

With the people I've been speaking to - (some of whom have decades of experience in the Health system) - their take is something like this:

"Hospitals are always understaffed to some degree, Normally the change is gradual over time, so you don't notice it so much - with the Mandates, it was sudden and very noticeable"

(that's paraphrasing several people btw)

Also - It's always fun to see Socialists tearing into other Socialists - The Left always eats their own.

[eldog]

Back on topic. Threads always turn into politicking and people reaching for their Thesaurus to impress others with BIG WORDS.
I saw $5.99 for a small lettuce yesterday.

Roll on spring and I might just dig up the back lawn and plant veges. My Dad was a keen gardener and we had an excellent supply of all sorts of fresh vegetables. I doubt my parents hardly ever paid for potatoes in their life. For years I was in charge of feeding our chickens and I sold the surplus eggs to the local Dairy over the road for pocket money. Many families were quite self sufficient in the 60s and 70s when it came to growing their own food in the backyard. I guess my generation just got spoilt by the convenience of supermarkets. Now backyards are for spa pools and trampolines [guilty!]

Pleased I didn't upgrade the car a couple of years ago when I had the pipe dream of buying a Mustang. Happy to be still chugging along in the little fuel efficient hatchback. I notice more gas guzzler cars seem to be frequenting those road side places where people park up to sell their cars. I laugh at one everyday when I pass it that has been there more months. One of those early 90s Mitsubishi V6 saloons (Magna/Diamante?). A neighbour got one new in the 90s and often complained how greedy it was on fuel and said he regretted buying it.

I do think we are heading for tougher times financially but that's the cycle. I remember being worried about my staff Super fund plummeting after 1987 and again in 2008. That last one bounced back really well though after a few years. The recovery was even better than the fall so the long term trend was a bonus windfall.

Nothing wrong with having a garden.
Mum is into gardening and convinced dad to do all the heavy stuff when she couldn't. She tried, unlike a lot of snowflakes of today. She epitomized the WW2 women rolling up her shirt sleeves tee shirt "let's make it work". I brought her the tee shirt. She still wears it today.
Dad often tried to get us to help with his vege garden, although we considered it hard work(what kid wouldn't?) Looking back it brought quite a bit of good times working together and later reward. I don't have time for it ATM, maybe when I retire, stuff to do but unable to do it?

On the Mitsi Diamante. I had the pleasure of driving one of these "accountants cars" soft suspension and when cold the transmission had a delay.....
Long distance fuel economy was great if you were reasonable 650 km on a single tank was my record.
Around town it was 300-400.
When in sport mode could easily keep up with hoons....
In comfort. Good times. Gone but not forgotten.

one of the first Aussie built 3.5 v6 auto with intelligent transmission.
yep had to wait for torque converter to wake up, in the morning.
it cruised because it wasn’t a company vehicle, didn’t eat tyres, probably the way it was driven.

[pete376403]

On the Mitsi Diamante. I had the pleasure of driving one of these "accountants cars" soft suspension and when cold the transmission had a delay.....
Long distance fuel economy was great if you were reasonable 650 km on a single tank was my record.
Around town it was 300-400.
When in sport mode could easily keep up with hoons....
In comfort. Good times. Gone but not forgotten.

V6 Mitsi were used by MOT back in the Black & White days. They could get along ok. One of my work colleagues had one. Consumption was a tossup between gas and front tyres (company car, eh?)

[F5 Dave]

So I really don't get cars. Butt fuk, I drove a rental Mitz V6 abot 15 yrs ago over rough backroads. Jeezuz they just didn't care about suspension, it was so Fukn crude. I was used to my van and it was completely shite in comparison. I bought some generic mazda 2 yrs back after 30 yrs with vans and was surprised how good a car could handle . An ex bike salesman told me selling cars, people don't even want to drive them, just what colour do they come in and impress me with gadgets.

[R650R]

Had a 93 Aussie built 3L v6 v3000 5 speed manual. Nothing wrong with fuel consumption, like most vehicles any failings in performance are mostly due to the nut behind the wheel.
New (old) cage is 200kw 3.5L v6 and just did 800km road trip on about 57L 96.

I seen an article other day sped tickets are about to get “adjusted” for inflation first time since 1992 or something. Nothing at all to do with this govts out of control spending....

[eldog]

Had a 93 Aussie built 3L v6 v3000 5 speed manual. Nothing wrong with fuel consumption, like most vehicles any failings in performance are mostly due to the nut behind the wheel.
New (old) cage is 200kw 3.5L v6 and just did 800km road trip on about 57L 96.

I seen an article other day sped tickets are about to get “adjusted” for inflation first time since 1992 or something. Nothing at all to do with this govts out of control spending....

The old Diamanté could have done with another cog, 800 km might have been achievable.

My current bike the same, 100 kph could do with a different ratio box to get fuel eco up.
it was obviously designed for a higher long distance kph:whistle:

[MD]

- My Dad still maintains a sizeable herb/vege garden.

Perhaps I should force myself to have an interest in Gardening...

Springs to mind the words of our most famous NZ Philosopher who may well have been predicting our current woes and even a vailed hint at Covid.

If it weren't for your gumboots, where would ya be?
You'd be in the hospital or infirmary
'coz you would have a dose of the 'flu, or even pleurisy
If ya didn't have yer feet in yer gumboots"

Lets all get into gardening.

[R650R]

The old Diamanté could have done with another cog, 800 km might have been achievable.

My current bike the same, 100 kph could do with a different ratio box to get fuel eco up.
it was obviously designed for a higher long distance kph:whistle:

I forgot to add... diamanté’s has a 500kg weight penalty over the v3000 versions due to a combination of the twin cam heads, electric seats and other people xtras.

[jellywrestler]

An ex bike salesman told me selling cars, people don't even want to drive them, just what colour do they come in and impress me with gadgets.
shows you the lack of ability of most motorists to even know the difference, and their lack of desire to improve their journies. Still, what doesn't do well at our road speeds these days?

[TheDemonLord]

I seen an article other day sped tickets are about to get “adjusted” for inflation first time since 1992 or something. Nothing at all to do with this govts out of control spending....

Something I saw elsewhere, on a different topic, but I feel is relevant:

"If the punishment for an offence is a Fine, then it is in effect a Tax on the Working Class"

Not a position I had heard before nor one I entirely agree with, but it's certainly got some merit to it.

[eldog]

shows you the lack of ability of most motorists to even know the difference, and their lack of desire to improve their journies. Still, what doesn't do well at our road speeds these days?

It's what I have been saying for ages.

Transport is a method of getting from A to B.
Most people don't care.
They go about the place and life with little regard for others. Put their hand up for everything. And are the first to condemn others.
Getting worse by the decade.

[onearmedbandit]

An ex bike salesman told me selling cars, people don't even want to drive them, just what colour do they come in and impress me with gadgets.

While it's been a couple years since I've been active in the industry I still have many good friends who either own or manage dealerships, from yards that sell 15 per month to ones that sell 180 per month. And nothing has changed, over 90% of sales still involve a test drive.

[george formby]

Something I saw elsewhere, on a different topic, but I feel is relevant:

"If the punishment for an offence is a Fine, then it is in effect a Tax on the Working Class"

Not a position I had heard before nor one I entirely agree with, but it's certainly got some merit to it.

Pretty sure that Switzerland has an income adjusted system for speeding tickets. The more you have, the more you pay.

"In Switzerland – perhaps surprising for a country that is normally rich-friendly – speeding fines take into account the motorist’s income as well as the speed.

The Swede is now facing the maximum possible penalty of 300 days of fines at SFr3,600 a day – a total of SFr1,080,000 ($1.02 million)."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/driver-faces--1-000-000-speeding-fine/23091098

[TheDemonLord]

Pretty sure that Switzerland has an income adjusted system for speeding tickets. The more you have, the more you pay.

"In Switzerland – perhaps surprising for a country that is normally rich-friendly – speeding fines take into account the motorist’s income as well as the speed.

The Swede is now facing the maximum possible penalty of 300 days of fines at SFr3,600 a day – a total of SFr1,080,000 ($1.02 million)."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/driver-faces--1-000-000-speeding-fine/23091098

Interesting - I can see the reasoning - the English side of me though feels that the punishment should be the same, regardless of who it is.

[george formby]

Interesting - I can see the reasoning - the English side of me though feels that the punishment should be the same, regardless of who it is.

Interesting comment. The English are a renowned bunch of Bankers, too.

For the sake of my countrymen, I hope Boris does not cotton onto this..:shutup:

[pete376403]

Pretty sure that Switzerland has an income adjusted system for speeding tickets. The more you have, the more you pay.

"In Switzerland – perhaps surprising for a country that is normally rich-friendly – speeding fines take into account the motorist’s income as well as the speed.

The Swede is now facing the maximum possible penalty of 300 days of fines at SFr3,600 a day – a total of SFr1,080,000 ($1.02 million)."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/driver-faces--1-000-000-speeding-fine/23091098


And yet, for all the draconian penalties, and superb (by NZ standards) roads, people still die, but not necessarily from excess speed. Statistically it is safer to go faster :-)
From that same page:
Accidents
According to the Swiss Council for Accident Prevention, 357 people were killed in Swiss road accidents in 2008, and another 25,556 were injured.

Of those, it’s believed that 147 deaths and 5,069 cases of injury were the result of speeding. 1,109 victims were severely injured.

[TheDemonLord]

And yet, for all the draconian penalties, and superb (by NZ standards) roads, people still die, but not necessarily from excess speed. Statistically it is safer to go faster :-)
From that same page:
Accidents
According to the Swiss Council for Accident Prevention, 357 people were killed in Swiss road accidents in 2008, and another 25,556 were injured.

Of those, it’s believed that 147 deaths and 5,069 cases of injury were the result of speeding. 1,109 victims were severely injured.

I remember someone who pointed out, under a different topic, that despite draconion legislation - people will still die....

But back to the Swiss - When I visited, I did not have the chance to drive on Swiss roads, instead I made use of their excellent train system, riding the Chocolate Train to Gruyere. Lovely place, might go back at some point in the future.

The reason I bring this up is that one factor, I believe, in the relatively low Road toll in Switzerland is the excellent public transport system - there are options to get around Switzerland without a Car, which is not the case really in NZ.

[neels]

Cost of living....

I remember (yes I am greying, so allowed to use that expression) when I lived in my first flat....phone was $30/month, power was around $100/month, that was the bills paid. Cricket and rugby were free on TV1, and you video recorded stuff you wanted to watch later.

Now if you want access to various things you have to pay for;

Internet
Mobile phone
Sky TV
Spark Sport
Netflix
Amazon
Disney

That's without dismantling the 'inefficient' government departments responsible for phone and power to create choice and make it cheaper for the customer, and councils contracting out core business to reduce rates :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELaBzj7cn14

[pete376403]

But you don't need all of those things - if you have power and internet, then most everything else can be obtained gratis.
I agree entirely with your thoughts about the break up of Telecom and NZED . Someone needs to interview max bradford and get his comment on how well the "market reforms" have benefitted the consumer

[neels]

But you don't need all of those things - if you have power and internet, then most everything else can be obtained gratis.
I agree entirely with your thoughts about the break up of Telecom and NZED . Someone needs to interview max bradford and get his comment on how well the "market reforms" have benefitted the consumer
The people responsible for the power reforms that created money sucking companies with shareholders and boards of directors should be bludgeoned with blunt instruments, until they admit it was all about greedy people wanting to own something that was paid for and previously belonged to the people of New Zealand.

[MD]

Pretty sure that Switzerland has an income adjusted system for speeding tickets. The more you have, the more you pay.

"In Switzerland – perhaps surprising for a country that is normally rich-friendly – speeding fines take into account the motorist’s income as well as the speed.

The Swede is now facing the maximum possible penalty of 300 days of fines at SFr3,600 a day – a total of SFr1,080,000 ($1.02 million)."

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/driver-faces--1-000-000-speeding-fine/23091098

Oh why, why, why did you bring road crashes into this discussion. The idea that if someone on a high income crashes and maybe endangers or kills someone they should pay a higher penalty than a driver on a lower income does if they endanger/kill the same person is ridiculous. How the hell does that help the dead person? Oh I feel better I was killed by a millionaire. Bit like saying if a man deprived of sex rapes a victim it's not as bad as a man who gets regular sex and rapes the same victim. Wrong is wrong. Quite a simple equation. Our world is full of apologist. Had a gutsful of them personally. Right now a tragic crash near Picton has all the usual apologist up in arms with blame the road makers, blame the council, blame the government, and the latest is blame our reliance on trucks. Sorry but only one person behind the steering wheel was responsible for keeping that vehicle on the correct side of the road. Our roads are not dangerous. People failing to pay attention and drive to the conditions are dangerous. Yep I have had my bike spills over the years and broken bones several times. Never blamed the road makers. Only blamed someone else once who did an un-indicated u-turn in front of me. Courts held him responsible too.

I remember driving a van full of people once to Rotorua and back. I was young. They were drinking and partying. BUT the entire driving time I felt the responsibility that their lives were solely in my hands and I drove accordingly. We did pub stops. I had a coke or coffee each time.
Me, myself, alone on my bike, OK I accept I take risks and sometimes paid for it. But put other peoples lives in my hands and it is a totally different story.

[TheDemonLord]

But you don't need all of those things - if you have power and internet, then most everything else can be obtained gratis.
I agree entirely with your thoughts about the break up of Telecom and NZED . Someone needs to interview max bradford and get his comment on how well the "market reforms" have benefitted the consumer

I can't comment too much on the Energy side of things (not my area of Expertise), However, I can talk a lot about Telecom (My Gateway into IT was working for an ISP) and I think there are some very rose-tinted glasses going on.

For Internet/Telephony, the installation lead times have drastically reduced - I'll give a personal example, a while ago - my (Now deceased) Grandparents-in-law were trying to move into an assisted living Flat, their home was out in the middle of nowhere and they were getting on in years. As a condition of them getting into the Flat, they needed a working phone line for the St John Medical Alarm. This qualifies the Install/Fault as a P1 (Medical escalation). Well, Telecom weren't playing ball, but because that Exchange had been unbundled, I was able to call a competitor, give them the details - they went to the Exchange, made the connection live - they could move in that day.

Something that could not have happened under the old system.

Other advantages - the roll out of Fibre to the Premises

The costs of xDSL (ADSL, ADSL2, ADSL2+, VDSL etc.) have significantly decreased relative to the average earnings, so that now, some form of High-Speed Internet is the norm.

The Cost of Data has also been reduced - although to be fair on this one, that is more a factor due to the Southern Cross Cable more than anything else.

For me, I haven't had a phone line since around 2010 I think, the only real use for it would be quicker response time for emergency services, but seeing as I'm not in a high-risk bracket, Mobile it is for me.

There's some other more technical things that have improved since Telecom was broken up - mainly around the maintenance of the Copper/Fibre in the ground.

If you do some Google-foo and look up articles in NZ from the early 2000s about Internet, Telephony and alike - you'll find lots of articles complaining about how bad it was - now, not so much.

[Viking01]

The people responsible for the power reforms that created money sucking companies with shareholders and boards of directors should be bludgeoned with blunt instruments, until they admit it was all about greedy people wanting to own something that was paid for and previously belonged to the people of New Zealand.

Morning.

Interesting to note the following article on Stuff this morning:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129058070/grid-emergency-close-shave-for-power-cuts-on-thursday-morning

One can only hope we will not have a repeat of the following this winter:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121998504/flaw-in-the-electricity-market-laid-bare-by-preliminary-ruling-against-meridian
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124718335/select-committee-expresses-concern-over-meridian-evidence

Australia
Meanwhile, across the ditch, our Australian neighbours were having their share of electrical supply challenges recently.

A different operational environment and mix, but interesting to watch (and compare) industry behaviours none the less.
See the sub-section "Why are there talks of blackouts? " of the first article.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-are-gas-prices-so-high-and-what-does-it-mean-for-your-power-bill-20220602-p5aqje.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61890617

[Edit]

It took me a while to find the link for a talk given by Geoff Bertram on the electricity industry back in 2019:

https://u3awellingtoncity.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Electricity-Pricing-Bertram-310519.pdf

[pete376403]

I can't comment too much on the Energy side of things (not my area of Expertise), However, I can talk a lot about Telecom (My Gateway into IT was working for an ISP) and I think there are some very rose-tinted glasses going on.

For Internet/Telephony, the installation lead times have drastically reduced - I'll give a personal example, a while ago - my (Now deceased) Grandparents-in-law were trying to move into an assisted living Flat, their home was out in the middle of nowhere and they were getting on in years. As a condition of them getting into the Flat, they needed a working phone line for the St John Medical Alarm. This qualifies the Install/Fault as a P1 (Medical escalation). Well, Telecom weren't playing ball, but because that Exchange had been unbundled, I was able to call a competitor, give them the details - they went to the Exchange, made the connection live - they could move in that day.

Something that could not have happened under the old system.

Other advantages - the roll out of Fibre to the Premises

The costs of xDSL (ADSL, ADSL2, ADSL2+, VDSL etc.) have significantly decreased relative to the average earnings, so that now, some form of High-Speed Internet is the norm.

The Cost of Data has also been reduced - although to be fair on this one, that is more a factor due to the Southern Cross Cable more than anything else.

For me, I haven't had a phone line since around 2010 I think, the only real use for it would be quicker response time for emergency services, but seeing as I'm not in a high-risk bracket, Mobile it is for me.

There's some other more technical things that have improved since Telecom was broken up - mainly around the maintenance of the Copper/Fibre in the ground.

If you do some Google-foo and look up articles in NZ from the early 2000s about Internet, Telephony and alike - you'll find lots of articles complaining about how bad it was - now, not so much.

Yes the old Post Office "six months to get a phone connected" mantra is well remembered, but this was in certain circumstances, not every case. The other things that you mention; ADSL, fibre, and so on, didn't really exist outside data centres so if NZPO had continued to exist, it is more than likely they would have introduced the new technologies as they came along. The rush to privatisation with Telecom bought in more than a few cockups of its own. For example - Telecom was broken into regional operating companies - ROCs - and the plan was they would compete against each other. Auckland, Hamilton, Palmerston North. Wellington, Christchurch. But the legislation omitted to include a ban on ROCs purchasing each other . Auckland bought out Hamilton pretty quickly. Palmerston never really got going and became a development centre. Wellington I think bought Christchurch. Then there was the "Tahi" project and they all got rolled back into one Telecom. My involvement in this was from 1987 - 1991 as an IBM employee looking after the AS400s at Tory Street (the Wellington data centre) and Herd Street (Palmerston Dev centre)

[F5 Dave]

But you don't need all of those things - if you have power and internet, then most everything else can be obtained gratis.
I agree entirely with your thoughts about the break up of Telecom and NZED . Someone needs to interview max bradford and get his comment on how well the "market reforms" have benefitted the consumer

Yeah it was fuking obvious at the time that guy needed a slap. We're not in the business of being in business. But we are in the business of being fukn stupid and screwing over the public who voted for us to work in their best interests.

Thanks cunts. Agree a stern interview with Max at the old folks home or wherever he is. Summon his spirit if needs be to hold to account.

[Viking01]

Yeah it was fuking obvious at the time that guy needed a slap. We're not in the business of being in business. But we are in the business of being fukn stupid and screwing over the public who voted for us to work in their best interests.

Thanks cunts. Agree a stern interview with Max at the old folks home or wherever he is. Summon his spirit if needs be to hold to account.

And while you're at it, could you also follow up with the person-in-charge of the past electricity (partial) privatisation, and just enquire how the sales proceeds were spent / re-invested:

https://www.nbr.co.nz/next-partial-privatisation-in-october-key-hints/

While our household power consumption has stayed fairly level over the years since (taking seasonal variation into account), I'm still waiting for my power bills (costs) to start reducing. The only way I can see of cutting my power bill in half is a pair of scissors.

[James Deuce]

I can't comment too much on the Energy side of things (not my area of Expertise), However, I can talk a lot about Telecom (My Gateway into IT was working for an ISP) and I think there are some very rose-tinted glasses going on.

For Internet/Telephony, the installation lead times have drastically reduced - I'll give a personal example, a while ago - my (Now deceased) Grandparents-in-law were trying to move into an assisted living Flat, their home was out in the middle of nowhere and they were getting on in years. As a condition of them getting into the Flat, they needed a working phone line for the St John Medical Alarm. This qualifies the Install/Fault as a P1 (Medical escalation). Well, Telecom weren't playing ball, but because that Exchange had been unbundled, I was able to call a competitor, give them the details - they went to the Exchange, made the connection live - they could move in that day.



Not entirely true. I worked for Telecom from 1988-1995 as a Data communications engineer and later a Network Design Architect. When Telecom was broken up into Regional Operating Companies, we got telephone installs down less than 18 hours from time of request in the Wellington region. I developed Statmux interface cards for the network used to communicate with a couple of mainframes, so that we were running sequent, Wang, IBM and Fujitsu based mainframes needed to service those requests off one terminal or 286 PC running emulater software. I spent the last 2 years working there designing infrastructure upgrades including fibre to the door by 2000 and multiple redundant routes and technologies to replace the trunk network, only for the Telecom Board to biff 2 years of work out the door. They thought that Bell/Ameritech would do all that stuff so wound up the ROCs and re-amalgamated Telecom into one super-inefficient bureacracy. NEC than abandoned development of any 802 standard related interfaces for the NEAX Exchanges, completely stuffing our early attempt make Internet access a thing without using dial-up technologies. The inefficiencies you are talking about were reintroduced by foreign investors.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes the old Post Office "six months to get a phone connected" mantra is well remembered, but this was in certain circumstances, not every case. The other things that you mention; ADSL, fibre, and so on, didn't really exist outside data centres so if NZPO had continued to exist, it is more than likely they would have introduced the new technologies as they came along. The rush to privatisation with Telecom bought in more than a few cockups of its own. For example - Telecom was broken into regional operating companies - ROCs - and the plan was they would compete against each other. Auckland, Hamilton, Palmerston North. Wellington, Christchurch. But the legislation omitted to include a ban on ROCs purchasing each other . Auckland bought out Hamilton pretty quickly. Palmerston never really got going and became a development centre. Wellington I think bought Christchurch. Then there was the "Tahi" project and they all got rolled back into one Telecom. My involvement in this was from 1987 - 1991 as an IBM employee looking after the AS400s at Tory Street (the Wellington data centre) and Herd Street (Palmerston Dev centre)

It's interesting that yourself and James both have similar experiences, and from the same time period (Late 80s, early 90s) which is well before my time in the Industry (2006-2010 I think)

When I started, Telecom was still Telecom, then it was Telecom Wholesale, then it became properly split into Chorus. I remember well the chaos of the Chorus engineer strike in 2009.... I left as the local loop unbundling was starting to gather pace.

Something to also note is that I noticed a lot of similarities, both in terms of Service and complaints between NZ's Telecom and British Telecom.

Other things that had an impact was Telstra Clear's HFC network in Christchurch, Kapiti and Wellington - HFC looked, for a brief moment, to be the next 'thing' - but the density of Subscribers in NZ (ironic!) was very high, compared to internationally - and without it being introduced to Auckland, it never really went nationwide - and then the investors for Telstra wanted a return on their investment instead of re-investing which really killed the only semi-competition that Telecom had.

[jellywrestler]

Not entirely true. I worked for Telecom from 1988-1995 as a Data communications engineer and later a Network Design Architect. When Telecom was broken up into Regional Operating Companies, we got telephone installs down less than 18 hours from time of request in the Wellington region. I developed Statmux interface cards for the network used to communicate with a couple of mainframes, so that we were running sequent, Wang, IBM and Fujitsu based mainframes needed to service those requests off one terminal or 286 PC running emulater software. I spent the last 2 years working there designing infrastructure upgrades including fibre to the door by 2000 and multiple redundant routes and technologies to replace the trunk network, only for the Telecom Board to biff 2 years of work out the door. They thought that Bell/Ameritech would do all that stuff so wound up the ROCs and re-amalgamated Telecom into one super-inefficient bureacracy. NEC than abandoned development of any 802 standard related interfaces for the NEAX Exchanges, completely stuffing our early attempt make Internet access a thing without using dial-up technologies. The inefficiencies you are talking about were reintroduced by foreign investors.
I worked in Telecom too, I used to be back in the happy hour queue each and every week at seven minutes past four on thursday to get another quart of DB as I'd consumed the first one I'd brought on the dot of 4pm.

[James Deuce]

I worked in Telecom too, I used to be back in the happy hour queue each and every week at seven minutes past four on thursday to get another quart of DB as I'd consumed the first one I'd brought on the dot of 4pm.
Mate, that sounds like you.

[pete376403]

It's interesting that yourself and James both have similar experiences, and from the same time period (Late 80s, early 90s) which is well before my time in the Industry (2006-2010 I think)
...

Other things that had an impact was Telstra Clear's HFC network in Christchurch, Kapiti and Wellington - HFC looked, for a brief moment, to be the next 'thing' - but the density of Subscribers in NZ (ironic!) was very high, compared to internationally - and without it being introduced to Auckland, it never really went nationwide - and then the investors for Telstra wanted a return on their investment instead of re-investing which really killed the only semi-competition that Telecom had.

I had some involvement with (what became) TelstraClear, too. Via a stupid Telecom decision. Even though Kapiti was in the 04 toll free dialing area, Telecom decided to charge for calls between Kapiti and Wellington. The result was a startup called Kapiti Cable, they had the big satellite dish just north of Paraparaumu, offering toll free calls to Wellington, plus overseas TV content. They also served movies via a room full of VHS players, and subscribers would call in and book a movie to be streamed to their home. That morphed into Saturn communications, based out of a building on Petone foreshore They had their own fibre line running over the Paekakariki hill road to connect the two sites. My part in all this is was the IBM System 36 and peripherals that their billing system ran on. They started the HFC rollout through Wellington and the Hutt Valley, and some time later became Telstra Saturn, then Telstra Clear. The cable was starting to get in Christchurch when as you say the investors wanted return, and killed it.

[jellywrestler]

They had their own fibre line running over the Paekakariki hill road to connect the two sites.

that was a cunt for a decent ride over the hill, a fucking zig zag in the middle of the road, hope you didn't say it was a good idea.

[pete376403]

that was a cunt for a decent ride over the hill, a fucking zig zag in the middle of the road, hope you didn't say it was a good idea.

I had no input at all into what they did. Didnt even work for that company, just did the maintenance on the S36

[TheDemonLord]

Right, That's it. My Local takeaway has put their prices up - up $2 from last year: $14.90 going to $16.90.

Shit is getting serious.

[Berries]

That's a big scoop of chips.

[TheDemonLord]

That's a big scoop of chips.

That was for their Chinese menu - however, the point remains - not amused.

[pete376403]

The material I built the bench tops in my kitchen (Acacia laminate sheet, 2.2 x .6, made in Vietnam) has increased from $98 /sheet to $119 in less than a year at Bunnings, about 22%

[R650R]

There is No cost of living crisis....

What we have now is a clear adoption of equality and sustainability. As per govts Genless advertising you will get used to living with less energy, consuming less. That’s thevonly way people will consume less is tax them out of an activity or devalue their currency.
And that leads us into equality, we will all be equal when we have nothing.
By the way nothing means no food or no heating too
By starving or freezing to death you are being a good citizen and helping your country be sustainable....

[pete376403]

There is No cost of living crisis....

What we have now is a clear adoption of equality and sustainability. As per govts Genless advertising you will get used to living with less energy, consuming less. That’s thevonly way people will consume less is tax them out of an activity or devalue their currency.
And that leads us into equality, we will all be equal when we have nothing.
By the way nothing means no food or no heating too
By starving or freezing to death you are being a good citizen and helping your country be sustainable....

How is the Government going to tax (their source of income) non-earning, no asset dead people?

[TheDemonLord]

How is the Government going to tax (their source of income) non-earning, no asset dead people?

"The State is not Abolished, it Withers away"

[R650R]

How is the Government going to tax (their source of income) non-earning, no asset dead people?

They don’t kill off everyone just say anywhere from 60-96% of population....
Consult the history section of your local library for previous examples of communist genocide....

[R650R]

Meanwhile on the other side of the big slippery ball that is earth, the UK have a white woman and a black man undertaking huge tax cuts for middle class in what’s billed as a risky experiment to get economy going. Time will tell how it all lands but what’s wrong with letting people keep more of their OWN money be they rich or poor....

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/world/300696753/britains-pm-liz-truss-makes-stunning-taxcut-gamble-as-pound-plunges

[pete376403]

Meanwhile on the other side of the big slippery ball that is earth, the UK have a white woman and a black man undertaking huge tax cuts for middle class in what’s billed as a risky experiment to get economy going. Time will tell how it all lands but what’s wrong with letting people keep more of their OWN money be they rich or poor....

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/world/300696753/britains-pm-liz-truss-makes-stunning-taxcut-gamble-as-pound-plunges

Problem is the rich always end up keeping even more of their money and the poor end up keeping even less of their money. Trickle down doesn't work and never has worked, but politicians who favour it are always on the rich side of the ledger.