eMotorbikes

[GazzaH]

What's the score on electric motorbikes?

Aside from electric motor-assisted pushbikes and those ugly angular white eFarmbikes that resemble engineering student projects or Meccano kits, what's happening on the roads? I guess electric motors in the hubs with batteries slung under the seat would give a low centre of gravity, with decent range and barely a whiff of emissions aside from the over-excited rider. So where are they?

[Laava]

Yep, where are they? And all the electric utes we have been promised? There is a second hand harly livewire for sale on trademe for $47000

[nerrrd]

I've been watching this gentleman's experiences on the Youtube, seems any electric version of what we might consider a motorcycle is still very expensive (secondhand), and even in a developed country the charging process isn't as straightforward as it should be. So our particular transport format doesn't look like it suits the current level of tech available for electrification.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWR_wvgBHCA

[george formby]

Had a chat with a guy charging up one of these a wee while ago.

https://www.energicamotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/ego-tricolore_670x377.png

Site link. https://www.energicamotor.com/en/models/energica-ego-electric-motorcycle/

The bike looked fantastic with top shelf components, Ohhh-lins, Brembo etc. I didn't immediately realise it was pixie powered, just thought he was hogging a charging park.

He was a nice bloke with a shed full of bikes but stated that he would probably not buy an ICE bike again, he enjoyed the Ego so much. He was travelling from Warkworth to teh Far North, not a bad trip on batteries. He said a friend of his was planning on selling his un-faired Energica to get an Ego. Keep yer eyes peeled...

I like rolling around in the shrubbery and keep a close eye on E-trials bikes. Some amazing bikes coming out, this thing weighs 60kg...

https://trialworld.es/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/mecatecno-dragonfly-electrica-trial-4.jpg

[Hoonicorn]

I'm really interested in environmentally sustainable bikes and watched a lot of reviews and tests on youtube. Problem is the dealerships don't sell or support a lot of the electric brands and the ones they do are not much more than scooters. I heard Energica will only provide parts and batteries if the bike has been serviced by them and no one in NZ is authorised (last I heard) so you buy and import them at your own risk.

Until the brands that have dealer support in NZ start selling electric bikes here, we won't see many on the roads. Kawasaki have some hybrid in development, triumph have the TC1 which looks like a speed triple but with a battery where the engine normally goes. Honda has pledged 15% of their sales will be electric by 2030 but that might be the small city bikes.

Bike companies might be holding off on battery power as the production of carbon neutral synthetic fuels could keep the old ICE engines going until hydrogen becomes a viable alternative.

[mcshaz]

Unfortunately hub motors = cheaper, but more unsprung weight = more inertia and therefore slower up and downstroke on the suspension = less time in contact with the road. There seems a huge price jump once moving away from hub motors

The real issues of the cheaper offerings are that they would not be able to get to 100 kph, let alone be able to sit there comfortably.


The 2 kiwi made options I am aware of like you mentioned (FTN motion looks heaps better, but can't get above 50 kph):

Ubco (you mentioned)
FTN Motion

The imported hub motor bikes which are getting close:

Super soco
Evoke
Please let me know of others being imported to NZ


And for those who like to burn money, either the Livewire as mentioned or importing a Zero or Energica. Zero did import to Australia but got out of that market 5 years ago or so. People do import them, and so effectively pay full retail but with no dealer support.

Have a look at newzeroland on youtube https://www.facebook.com/groups/490290081150877/ (he now rides an Energica, having sold the Zero). There is a facebook group for kiwi & Oz electric motorbikes https://www.facebook.com/groups/490290081150877/

Personally, I'll be interested when:

Priced 50% of the Harley/Livewire One or less
Able to sit at 100 and accelerate from here for overtaking
Faired for a bit of rain and wind protection + increased range/wind resistance
Local dealer support
Electronic traction control - given the incredible torque of these motors at all revs

[george formby]

I'm really interested in environmentally sustainable bikes and watched a lot of reviews and tests on youtube. Problem is the dealerships don't sell or support a lot of the electric brands and the ones they do are not much more than scooters. I heard Energica will only provide parts and batteries if the bike has been serviced by them and no one in NZ is authorised (last I heard) so you buy and import them at your own risk.


Hmmm, I never nude that, cheers.

Which leads to the question. What needs servicing on an e-bike? Apart from consumables, suspenders, brakes and the like which are generic anyway. Scrub the brakes, re-gen tech is probably quite funky.

[mcshaz]

re-gen tech is probably quite funky.

I think it just uses the same motor for regen - hence the rear wheel only regeneration on the livewire. I would guess the regen braking tech will be more in the electronics than the motor components per se.

As you say - servicing will be around the drivechain, bearings and suspension. Despite the motor not needing the maintenance of an ICE, it is still a big risk to import something like this at full RRP knowing any faults in any non motor components will not be covered, or at the very least will be an $8K+ round trip to the factory at your own expense.

[MarkH]

I'd be happy to go electric (funds permitting) and I think that electric motors with their insta-torque are great for motorcycles. The big problem is the batteries and their physical size and also their weight, it is really hard to get enough battery power onto a motorcycle to let it rival bang-juice based bikes. For a commuter doing less than 80km per day - electric is pretty doable. For a moped, again less than 80km per day - I'd much rather go with electric than petrol. For a sports bike or sports tourer or tourer or cruiser or adventure bike ridden several hundred kms in a day at 100 - 110kph . . . not quite so easy to do. I do think that things will improve with batteries over time, I've already seen battery capacity improvements (both by volume & by weight). The Nissan Leaf 24kWh battery and the newer Nissan Leaf 40kWh battery are the same size & same weight, that is a pretty decent increase in capacity without increasing volume or mass - if they could repeat that improvement a couple more times . . .

Once I'm able to ride how I want to ride, when I want to ride, without any deal-breaker downsides going electric - then why the hell not!
For now - how feasible electric bikes are would depend on what speed you need and how far you need to go in a day.
If anyone is buying a 50cc scooter, I would recommend checking the electric versions - I think electric is better for that market. For that matter, my e-MTB is in many ways a better option than a 50cc scooter and quite possibly faster.

[george formby]

With the speed that battery tech is advancing I suspect that range, power, charging etc will be moot far sooner than we think.

Speaking of mountain bikes. Yamaha have just released 2 new leccy pushies. The article claims that Yamaha were first to market a pixie pushie, 30 years ago, and are world leaders in E- motor design. Typical Yamaha.

On another tangent..

Ariel, of Atom fame, have a new electric prototype car which re-charges the battery with a wee jet engine. :banana:

They claim it is the cleanest, lightest, most efficient motor for a high performance hybrid. Yussssss!

[GazzaH]

A hydrogen-powered jet engine?

[george formby]

A hydrogen-powered jet engine?

Can't find any info on fuel for the jet. But did find out it's made by Cosworth.

[neels]

Ariel, of Atom fame, have a new electric prototype car which re-charges the battery with a wee jet engine. :banana:

They claim it is the cleanest, lightest, most efficient motor for a high performance hybrid. Yussssss!
There used to be a free shuttle bus doing laps around christchurch that was a lpg gas turbine electric, supposedly much more efficient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shuttle_(bus)

[Laava]

This looks fun!
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/stark/listing/3503914302?bof=S2E6Ch8I

[Ser Olmy]

Hi, this is my first post. Please be gentle :) What a pleasure to find an eMoto thread that has absolutely no hate in it! Just (mostly) questions! I'm an eMoto rider (2016 Zero SR) of three years/130,000km and into the nerdy technical details of electric drivetrains (I work at a shop that converts combustion vehicles to electric). Will try to answer all the questions, wall of text incoming...


Yep, where are they? There is a second hand harly livewire for sale on trademe for $47000

There are probably <30 "proper" (sustained 120kph and >150kph top speed) eMotos on NZ roads. I know seven in the Wellington region (3 Zero, 2 Energica, 2 HD Livewire). HDLW has gone from trademe now of course, but there's an Energica Eva there right now (https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/sports/other/listing/3892176641), and I know of an Ego for private sale. Without dealers though uptake in NZ is going to be pretty slow.


the charging process isn't as straightforward as it should be. So our particular transport format doesn't look like it suits the current level of tech available for electrification.

Am also following Marc, what great content! Looking forward to welcoming him when he makes our shores. Charging is not great on Zero bikes as they can only use AC. AC units are generally not as reliable as DC units (either broken or incompatible - my Zero won't charge on some AC units here). And AC is slower to charge than DC as the charger is on the vehicle and faster charging would require putting more heavier chargers and cooling on the bike. DC chargers connect direct to the traction battery so the bike doesn't need to carry anything (aside from some tiny control electronics) to support it.


I heard Energica will only provide parts and batteries if the bike has been serviced by them and no one in NZ is authorised (last I heard) so you buy and import them at your own risk.

Bike companies might be holding off on battery power as the production of carbon neutral synthetic fuels could keep the old ICE engines going until hydrogen becomes a viable alternative.

Energica USA are fine to deal with here AFAIK, parts are available online from a US dealer or (offline) the factory and they'll respond to tech support emails. I know two NZ owners that have received parts from the US to replace broken bits, one involved a workshop in Auckland cracking open the battery pack (https://i.imgur.com/dxWSLFj.jpg) to replace a fuse. They're involved with every bike that makes it to NZ as they have to swap the CCS1 (America) charging system out for CCS2 (everyone else). I have a salvage titled 2022 Ribelle RS (https://i.imgur.com/DCscdRu.jpg) and box of replacement bits for it on the next boat (SO EXCITED!)

Zero are quite different. There is an owner support channel but it's no more technical than a dealer. My experience with worn out motor bearings is a good example. Bearings needed replacing. Zero have no process for replacing bearings the only supported solution is a new motor, which requires the new motor be commissioned to the existing controller on the bike - not possible without dealer equipment. I would have had to buy a new motor and send my controller off to be commissioned to it. I ended up working out how to replace the bearings with some youtube videos and engaging a local electric motor shop to help with some equipment.

Hydrogen... yeah, nah. It'll never be a viable alternative except in very specific very rare circumstances. It's a mine/refine/distribute/burn power cycle pushed by companies that make their money with mine/refine/distribute/burn power. Hydrogen being so visible is testament to the enormous lobbying resources those companies command. The why is a bit out of scope for this reply, have a listen to this podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOCS95Jvjc) which covers the technical and economic reasons why.


Personally, I'll be interested when:dd

Able to sit at 100 and accelerate from here for overtaking
Faired for a bit of rain and wind protection + increased range/wind resistance
Local dealer support
Electronic traction control - given the incredible torque of these motors at all revs


Every 'proper' (mid motor >10kW) eMoto can sit at 100 and accellerates hard beyond that (Zero's to 160, Energica to 200+). Zero have a full faired model - the SR/S (https://www.inceptivemind.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zero-SR-S.jpg). Energica have a 'kinda' faired model, the new Experia (https://thepack.news/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/energica_experia_2.jpg). All current models have TC (my gen2 Zero doesn't, ask me how I know :weep:). Local dealer support would be nice but isn't essential to ownership, maintenance is standard off the shelf bits, though on the very rare occasion something OEM breaks a local dealer would make sourcing replacement parts a bit faster and (maybe) a bit cheaper.


What needs servicing on an e-bike? Apart from consumables, suspenders, brakes and the like which are generic anyway.

Basically nothing other than consumables. After 130,000km my Zero motor and 'fuel' system have cost $200 ($20 for bearings, $180 for shop time fitting them). Maintenance costs are rarely compared, which is a pity as the savings could be as significant as the fuel savings.


I think it just uses the same motor for regen - hence the rear wheel only regeneration on the livewire. I would guess the regen braking tech will be more in the electronics than the motor components per se.

As you say - servicing will be around the drivechain, bearings and suspension. Despite the motor not needing the maintenance of an ICE, it is still a big risk to import something like this at full RRP knowing any faults in any non motor components will not be covered, or at the very least will be an $8K+ round trip to the factory at your own expense.

Your guess is bang on. The electronics (controller/inverter) that drive the motor by feeding it power can also work the other way when the motor is in motion while not being driven. Though the tiny mass of rider and bike means you get hardly any power back. I compared regen between my 13kWh Zero and 30kWh Nissan Leaf from the top of Remutaka Hill down to the bridge at the Featherson end. Nissan Leaf recovered 6%, Zero recovered 1%. And I was REALLY trying!

I can't think of a fault that would require a factory visit. At worst the components could be removed and shipped. One owner in Wellington had a dealer remote in on a PC to fix software config. But generally these things are incredibly reliable. There's no vibration or heating/cooling cycle stressing the components, just one rotating part supported by bearings.


I think that electric motors with their insta-torque are great for motorcycles. The big problem is the batteries and their physical size and also their weight, it is really hard to get enough battery power onto a motorcycle to let it rival bang-juice based bikes.

Heh the insta-torque is great for everything - except rear tyres. Riding electric saves me a fortune in fuel but my tyre habit works out about $100 a month :eek:. Energica's will do >200km at highway speeds on one charge. But ultimately you're right, while electric motors are incredibly efficient at turning electric power into motion the storage of that power is way less efficient than petrol. Pouring 15L into a fuel tank is the energy equivalent of a 135kWh battery, my Zero when full of electrons is carrying as much energy as just 1.5L of gas. Density is improving slowly but it'll never reach parity with gas. What would help is much faster charging speeds, and they are getting better over time. Energica's DC fast charge at ~24kW and fill 20%-80% in 20 mins, Wellington to Auckland in a day is no problem. Ducati have taken over the Moto-E race series from Energica and their track development bike can charge a similar sized battery in about half the time. Looking forward to the roadgoing evolution of that in a couple of years. Lightning have announced a ten minute charge time for their 24kWh battery. But take everything Lightning say with a gigantic pinch of salt, their record of delivery is... poor.


This looks fun!
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/stark/listing/3503914302?bof=S2E6Ch8I

The Stark Varg looks bonkers. Some of the youtubes are absolutely epic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QV8wyebNFw

Still reading? :woohoo: Think that covers the questions, hopefully you found that at least mildly informative.

If you're interested how the rider experience differs between electric and gas some personal notes follow. Some differences are obvious, others not so much. Some changes are in the physics, others are in the mind. Our minds are all different, so you may not share some of my reasonings or conclusions. In no particular order...

Braking
It's still mechanical and hydraulic, brake-by-wire isn't a thing regulations allow (yet). Physical controls are the same, though some electrics move the foot brake up to where the clutch would normally be - bicycle style.

Regen
This gets interesting and can have a huge effect on handling. The impact of regen depends on how aggressively it's set, whether it's blended, and when it applies. Different manufacturers have taken different approaches. Here are a couple of examples.

Zero's have two customisable regen settings in the custom ride mode "off throttle" and "on brake". "Off throttle" at 0% regen is like coasting in neutral, at 100% it's like the rear brake is ~33% engaged. "On brake" regen happens with the brake light comes on, and for Zero it's on/off, no smooth transition. E.g. barely touch the front brake lever just enough to trigger the brake light and with 100% regen configured the rear will squat down like you just engaged the rear brake.

Energica are completely different. Six selectable max regen levels from none to nearly emergency stop which apply progressively as you roll off the throttle, applying brakes does not affect regen. Takes a bit of getting used to, very much like the "one pedal driving" some EV cars offer.

Accellerating
No gears and full torque at any road legal speed gives the throttle a very linear completely predictable response. Insta-torque with 0% chance of fudging a clutch or a gearchange makes going for a gap a very quick decision with full confidence.

Gears
Certainly there's satisfaction in performing co-ordinated movements to achieve a goal, look at almost all sports. But for me riding is the line and speed taking a corner, the feeling of accelleration, being immersed in the surroundings. Gear changes were operating machinery in pusuit of those pleasures and taking up brain bandwidth that could be put to use elsewhere, I don't miss them at all.

Noise (lack of)
This took a long time to get used to mainly because my Zero is direct belt drive so makes no noise at all (maybe a little like an angry forklift when accellerating hard). It's not the noise I missed but what it informed - holding a steady speed without looking at the speedo is basically impossible. This isn't a thing on the Energica or Livewire as they utilise reduction gears which make noise. I think the straight cut gears in the Energica sound freaking awesome (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtwtuTgI4DI) and turn heads just as often as any loud pipe.

The quiet is not a problem on the road. Being a cautious rider around traffic I'm never where a loud pipe is the only thing that would save me. Car parks, on the other hand, are a minefield of zombified pedestrians. Pedestrians are the worst, heads buried in phones or chatting with friends, relying on their ears to detect danger. I definitely ride slower in car parks now and have had to stop while pedestrians just walk across the lane without even clocking a bike would have hit them if I wasn't paying attention. That'll change as more pedestrians get bumped by EVs and they learn to use their eyes again :laugh:.

Final thoughts...

Expensive?
A few commenters mentioned price as a barrier. It's true that the up front cost is higher, but lifetime costs can paint a very different picture. My Zero has almost paid for itself in fuel savings alone. Fire up a copy of Excel (or calculator) and run the numbers for your own situation. Here are my numbers and workings.

130,000km ridden, 7.8MW of electricity consumed (according to onboard battery management system). At 25c/kW the math is a simple 7800kW x 0.25c = $1,950 of electrons. On a gas bike managing 5.5L/100km and gas at $2.93/L (average 98 price from gaspy.co.nz just now) the math is (130,000km / 100km) x 5.5L x $2.93 = $20,949.50 in gas bills alone, before 130kkm of maintenance bills. I paid $22,000 for the Zero three years ago. The more you ride the more you save!

Dealers
I have heard rumours of an NZ Energica and/or Zero dealer opening soon. So we may not have long to wait for official in-country support. If anyone here is around Wellington, owns a motorcycle shop, and would consider being a dealer for Energica please get in touch I would like to start one :)

The future?
The future is bright. Ranges edging up, charge times dropping. The recent moves to LiFePO4 chemistries will mean batteries delivering >1 million km before they degrade below 80% of original capacity. There are more and more manufacturers are entering the market, a lot are small, some boutique low volume, some aiming for high volue, some may not make it into mass production, the usual new industry growing pains. With motors so small and batteries sculptable into almost any shape designers are really pushing the boat out.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk! :done:

[george formby]

Well bugger me with a pineapple!:shit:

An interesting and informative bike post on KB, whoda thunk?

Seriously, though. Cheers for posting that, a really good read.

I'm really looking forward to e-bikes taking off after seeing that Energica, it was lovely. E- trials bikes are really capturing my interest, too.

[Hoonicorn]

Expensive?
A few commenters mentioned price as a barrier. It's true that the up front cost is higher, but lifetime costs can paint a very different picture. My Zero has almost paid for itself in fuel savings alone. Fire up a copy of Excel (or calculator) and run the numbers for your own situation. Here are my numbers and workings.

130,000km ridden, 7.8MW of electricity consumed (according to onboard battery management system). At 25c/kW the math is a simple 7800kW x 0.25c = $1,950 of electrons. On a gas bike managing 5.5L/100km and gas at $2.93/L (average 98 price from gaspy.co.nz just now) the math is (130,000km / 100km) x 5.5L x $2.93 = $20,949.50 in gas bills alone, before 130kkm of maintenance bills. I paid $22,000 for the Zero three years ago. The more you ride the more you save!

Dealers
I have heard rumours of an NZ Energica and/or Zero dealer opening soon. So we may not have long to wait for official in-country support. If anyone here is around Wellington, owns a motorcycle shop, and would consider being a dealer for Energica please get in touch I would like to start one :)



Your "130,000km" isn't typical. Some people have bikes as weekend toys over summer, like a jet ski, so price might still be an issue. As commuter bikes, they're still expensive, the up-front cost would put a lot of people off. Financing might be the best way to go. After 130k, is the battery still holding up?

I'd like the option of an electric motorbike dealer in Wellington. eBike shops are popping up all over the place and online, even renting from $50 a month. My guess is that most dealerships make money from the workshops more than the bikes but some do stock those little cheap electric motorbikes. It looks like most of the new electrics are coming from new start-ups, so maybe dealerships are tied to the big brands for now.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.motorcyclistonline.com%2Fresi zer%2FD8VJFsmgRWs6-9dpW5PSprugcX8%3D%2Farc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bonnier.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2FT3HFVCEAKVG65C H4MWKY5ALM3M.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=9b33e2cd3c379a7732b05408be75144aa1e2df6839f74c 771ab1388883c13deb&ipo=images

[Ser Olmy]

Seriously, though. Cheers for posting that, a really good read.

No worries, and thanks :niceone:


Your "130,000km" isn't typical. Some people have bikes as weekend toys over summer, like a jet ski, so price might still be an issue. As commuter bikes, they're still expensive, the up-front cost would put a lot of people off. Financing might be the best way to go. After 130k, is the battery still holding up?

I'd like the option of an electric motorbike dealer in Wellington. eBike shops are popping up all over the place and online, even renting from $50 a month. My guess is that most dealerships make money from the workshops more than the bikes but some do stock those little cheap electric motorbikes. It looks like most of the new electrics are coming from new start-ups, so maybe dealerships are tied to the big brands for now.


Yeah I'm not typical :laugh: some riders do more km than others, and everyone has different use cases and cost/benefit comfort zones. My point was that it's worth taking a few minutes to look past the up front cost and run the numbers - after some number of years and km of ownership the cost/benefit may favour electric over gas. There are also intangible benefits (or detractors depending on personal taste) to consider like lack of noise, gears, fumes, etc.

The battery is holding up better than expected after nearly 2500 cycles. I should run a capacity test but feels like it's down ~7%. Battery swap is easy enough but that's several years away yet, a new one is US$6k (+shipping +gst) so I'll probably pick up a wrecked low miler to get a battery with a bunch of other spare bits attached to it.

A dealer of full size electrics anywhere in NZ would be amazing, and probably have to be near Auckland for enough volume. Which while not ideal for a Wellingtonian it isn't tooooo onerous as EV maintenance schedules are significantly lighter than gas; there's a Wellington based HD Livewire owner that uses the Auckland dealership for servicing. I don't think there's anything stopping an existing dealer adding an electric brand, just need the space and startup capital.

Interesting you posted a pic of a Damon, they offer their bikes as subscription rentals or for purchase outright (I stumped up for a reservation back in 2020, current ETA 'late 2023'). They're one of the more promising startups, raised big chunk of money, built a factory and are in the process of fitting it out for volume production. I dare say you're right, service not sales is the real money maker for dealerships. Damon is going for the Tesla model, direct sales, no dealerships, mobile service departments. They may become the Tesla of the motorcycle world, a startup that survives, enters volume production, and very much ruffles the feathers of incumbant brands barely paying lip service to electrification (HD and Ducati excepted).